1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know from house stuff Works 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: and there's Charles and and Jerry's back. Wow. Wow, wow, 4 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: look at that fine looking lady over there. How's it going, Jerry? 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: She gave us the fine thumbs up. It's just like 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: old times. Yeah, Nol is just quietly weeping outside. He is, 7 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: you know, like back outside Noel. He's peaking in her 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: little portal window, scratching at it. The stint of Noel ak, 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: the rain of terror is over done. Yes, has been 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: deposed by Jerry. So now it's not Noel sitting there 11 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: or nobody sitting there. Happened more times than I was 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: comfortable with, at least four. Yeah, Jerry's like, wait a minute, 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: that we can do that. I'm out of here. Yeah, 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: so long, Jerry. So welcome back, Jerry. And uh, we've 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: already said congratulations on little Is, but who just keeps 16 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: getting cuter and cuter. Yep, I know things are going great, 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: so we're happy to have you back. And Lily Nez, 18 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: you're being very quiet, just stay that way. She's just 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: rocking in her little swing. Yeah, would be having babies. 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: In here. Yeah, if they shut up, wouldn't that be cool? 21 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: For sure? Good energy. I would just feel bad for 22 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: him because it gets pretty gamey in here. Yeah, even 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: after like fifteen minutes, a couple of hours. I kind 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: of stink today. Actually, I was gonna oppolize. Yeah, I 25 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: didn't use deodorant the first time I showered him, just 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: like two days ago. It's fantastic. I know, it's terrible. 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: I even dressed up. Man, that's great. That. Yeah, I'm 28 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: gonna take care of that tonight. That explains the sheen 29 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: on your face. Okay, so we're here, Jerry's here, I smell. 30 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: Let's do it. Since you do smell, chuck, I have 31 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: to say, at least, at the very least, I'm grateful 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: that we don't happen to be in Fall River, Massachusetts 33 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: on the morning of augusto because that morning was particularly 34 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: particularly hot, unseasonably hot. It was over a hundred degrees 35 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: fahrenheit by the time noon rolled around, And that figures 36 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: heavily in the case of Lizzie Borden and her forty 37 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: and forty one wax, which were more like eighteen or 38 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: nineteen and eleven. Yes, are you? You were familiar with 39 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: Lizzie Boy. Everybody knows Lizzie Borden. Right, Yeah, Lizzie Borden 40 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: took an X, gave her mother forty wax. When she 41 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: found what she had done, she gave her father forty one. 42 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: Yeah wrong, there was no ax. It wasn't a real mother. 43 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: Wasn't a real mother. There wasn't so all about that 44 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: was just made up. They think to sell newspapers. Yes, yeah, 45 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: they think it's a children's nursery rhyme these days, little 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: sicko children. Um. But but they do think that it 47 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: was possibly some newspaper hawker, a newsy if watch Disney movies, Um, 48 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: who came up with it and they just took off. 49 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: We should change it to Lizzie Borden may or may 50 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: not have taken a hatchet given her stepmother eighteen or 51 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: nineteen wax, thirteen of them crushed her skull when she 52 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: saw what she had done. Her father got home, she 53 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: gave him eleven or so and then got away. Yeah 54 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: it Scott Free. That doesn't have the same ring. No, 55 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: that doesn't. But you basically did just sum it up 56 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: pretty well, pretty accurately, Chuck. So for those of you 57 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: who don't know who Lize Boorden is just settled down, buckling, 58 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: prepare for a wild ride. For those of you who 59 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: do know, do the same. Okay, Yeah, because we have 60 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: new evidence, Yeah, that we're gonna reveal the controvertible evidence 61 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: of exactly who carried out these murders, and the only 62 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: people who have it is us, because we're gonna make 63 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: it up and you'll find out in thirty five ish 64 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: minutes or forty apparently to stuffy miss and she classed 65 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: an episode on Lizzie Board. If this floats, your boat 66 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: goes into that one too. Yeah, I should point out 67 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: to the very first thing we said. We told Jerry 68 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: were doing Lizzie Board and she said lesbian. Yeah, and 69 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: we said maybe that's one of the theories. Yeah, this 70 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: will all figure in. We're just teasing, teasing like crazy, 71 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: all right. So the morning of August four, Fall River, Massachusetts. Ah, 72 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: very cute town, by the way. I'm sure you mean 73 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: I visited recently? Who did you go to the house? 74 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: Why else would you go there? That's about it. Yeah, 75 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: that was on your death tour, your murder tour, um. 76 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: But in two like I said, it was over a 77 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,119 Speaker 1: hundred degrees ferrent height on August four, really really hot 78 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: for that area. And at about ten I think about 79 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: ten forty five am, wasn't it. Yeah, about ten forty 80 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: five the first murder, No, the father coming home. Oh yeah, yeah. 81 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: They placed both of these events within like thirty to 82 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: forty five minutes. There's you know, a given take there. 83 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: So about ten forty five am one, Andrew Jackson Boorden 84 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: returns to his home at nine two Second Street in 85 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: Fall River, mass And. Um, the the house is in 86 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: a part of town that was very popular among recent immigrants, 87 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: specifically Irish Catholics and Portuguese. Uh. And I believe there's 88 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: some Chinese immigrants there as well. It wasn't an upscale 89 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: part of town by any means. Despite the fact that 90 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: Andrew Borden was an extremely wealthy man. Yeah, he was 91 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: worth between seven and ten million today dollars. I've I've 92 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: heard twelve let's say between seven and twelve. Then that's 93 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: a lot of dough and also a good reason to 94 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: kill somebody. Yeah. Um, and he despite having a lot 95 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: of dough, he lived in one of the lower rent 96 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: sections of the town. Um. His house did not have 97 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: indoor plumbing, which was kind of odd by this time 98 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: for that area. Um. Apparently many of the people who 99 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: were far far worse off than his family financially head 100 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: indoor plumbing. He did not. He also didn't have any 101 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: kind of electric lighting. Instead he used kerosene lamps, and uh, 102 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: he kept doors locked. He was very afraid of being robbed. Yeah, 103 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,119 Speaker 1: let's cover this bit real quick. I think we should 104 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: read this. Um. There's a lady named Angela Carter who 105 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: wrote about the case. She actually factored into our our 106 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: fairy Tales episode. She was the feminist rewrote fairy Tales. 107 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: She wrote what was that Neil Jordan's take on Little 108 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 1: Rod Ride and her hood? Yeah, I remember she wrote 109 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: the So she said the house was originally a two 110 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: family home and they converted it to a single family 111 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: home but didn't take a lot of time. Apparently just 112 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: knocked down some walls through in a staircase and it 113 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: ended up being a weird house because of that. It 114 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: is very weird. And she describes it as, uh, this 115 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: way a house full of doors that open only into 116 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: other rooms, with other locked doors for upstairs and downstairs. 117 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: All the rooms led in and out of one another 118 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: like a maze and a bad dream. It is a 119 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: house without passages. There is no part of the house 120 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: that has not been marked as some inmates personal territory 121 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: inmate very nice. It is a house with no shared 122 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: no common spaces between one room and the next. It 123 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: is a house of privacies sealed as close as if 124 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: they had been sealed with wax on a legal document. Creepy. 125 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: No hallway is or anything weird. No, each room led 126 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: into the next, and in fact Lizzie's bedroom led right 127 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: into her sister Emma's bedroom too. For Emma to go 128 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: to bed, she would have had to go through Lizzie's bedroom, 129 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: um and then her Her stepmother and father's bedroom was 130 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: behind hers, but it was sealed off by a locked 131 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: door and access through staircase that only your father used 132 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: that you could get to only with the key. Yeah, 133 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: And to go up and down the stairs, they had 134 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: to go through their parents bedroom right, Yes, but they 135 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: didn't do that. That was it was off limits. It 136 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: was locked. They just jumped out the second story window. 137 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: There was a front staircase, actually built a second staircase 138 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: so that her their their parents could come and go 139 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: to their room without having to go through Lizzie's room, 140 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: so for all intentsive purposes, but this locked door, it 141 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: was a wall that sealed off their parents room from there. Yes, 142 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: and when we say parents, uh, this is a stepmother. 143 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: Lizzie was born Um to Sarah Morse and her father 144 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty third child. Um had an older sister 145 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: named Emma, ten years older. The second daughter named Alice, 146 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: who died when Lizzie was two. Yes, she had. She 147 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: died from hydra and cephily. You could just make up 148 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: anything back then, something believable, you know. Uh. And then 149 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: her mother died in eighteen sixty three when she was 150 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: just two of uterine congestion. And then when Lizzie turned 151 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,359 Speaker 1: right before she turned five, he remarried to Abby Gray, 152 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: who the daughters were in their thirties by the time 153 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: the murder took place, unmarried at Spinster's Uh. And never 154 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: seemed like they had a great relationship with add they didn't, 155 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: but they both adored their father and Um he he 156 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: personally appreciated that for his benefit, they referred to her 157 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: as mother, and they did for decades until the time 158 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: which we'll get to um. But they they the reason 159 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: that Um Andrew Borden kept a house locked all the time. 160 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: Was because a couple of years before there had been 161 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: a burglary where some mysterious burglar had come in and 162 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 1: made off with a hundred dollars and some Charlie tickets 163 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: and some jewelry. I think, and Uh it was basically 164 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: pretty well known around town that it was Lizzie who 165 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: had done it. Sounds like an inside job in nation 166 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: she robbed her own father rather than accused his daughter 167 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: of this extraordinarily scandalous behavior at the time. Sure, Um, 168 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: he just locked everything and all doors were locked all 169 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: the time. Um, and he kept a key to his 170 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: room on the mantel, basically daring anybody to even try it, 171 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: because he would know what happened, because the only way 172 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: you could get in was through this key. The only 173 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: way to get to the key would be to have 174 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: a key to the outside doors. We say all this 175 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: to say that when Andrew Um Borden came back home 176 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: that day on August four, that morning, Uh, he was 177 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: locked out of his own house and he had to 178 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: be led in by the maid whose name was Bridget, 179 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: but who Emma and Lizzie called Maggie because they had 180 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: had another maid named Maggie, and they decided that they 181 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: just were gonna call this one Maggie too. That sounds like, um, 182 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: do you watch the show another period? Huh? That's great. 183 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: It's a comedy Central basically a reality TV spoof of 184 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: like Dounton Abbey and Um. The two lead Natascheaa Gerro 185 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: and uh oh, I can't remember her name from Garth 186 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: funcle On notes the blonde she does the she's the other. 187 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: I think they co created the series, but they're just 188 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: these rich girls who would like they renamed one of 189 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: the maid's chair. How have I not even heard of this? 190 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, It's really funny. It's got a huge, 191 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: great cast, big fan. H have you seen Anthony Doeslick 192 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: special on Netflix yet? Oh? No, dude, I love that 193 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: guy though. It's really yeah so so awful but wonderful. 194 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah so uh Andrew Boording gets let back into 195 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: his own house, not Anthony does. Um and he uh. 196 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: He gets let back in by the maid and he 197 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: decides he's going to lay down for a little while 198 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: on the couch. Right. Apparently the whole family was under 199 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: the weather, including the maid, because they have been eating 200 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: the same mutton for like five days. Mutton's gross to 201 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: begin with. Five day old mutton that had been stored 202 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: in the heat in an ice box outdoors is not 203 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: just gross, it's really bad for you. So the whole 204 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: family had basically come down to very degrees of um 205 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: food poisoning. Yeah, like so much so that Mrs Borden 206 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: Abbey Borden had gone to talk to the doctor the 207 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: day before the murders and said, I think we're being 208 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: poisoned by one of my husband's business rivals or my stepdaughter, right, 209 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: you know something like that. Uh. Yeah, that's not all 210 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: the weirdness that was going on, um in the in 211 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: the months and weeks before the murders. Uh, there was 212 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: a lot of uh not strange, but a lot of 213 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: financial goings on that kind of raised the ire of 214 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: the daughters. Um. Notably, Andrews started uh being fairly generous 215 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: with other members of the family, giving away properties and things, uh, 216 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: including to Abbey. He gave her a house that she 217 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: let her sister live in. Her sister was in big trouble, 218 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: so he helped her out. Yeah, so he's got money, 219 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: he's like, um uh so he said, you know what, 220 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: I'll give you each a property as well for a 221 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: dollar and you're you're welcome. And they ended up reselling 222 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: that back to Dad for cash later, which was kind 223 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: of jerky. Yeah. Well it was a rental property and 224 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: he had a bunch of rental properties, and apparently his 225 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: miserliness was very well known. Um. He also directed some 226 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: mills right and Fall Rivers incredibly famous for its mills. 227 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: It was it's a huge mill town. So he knew 228 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: that if you worked in the mills and rented at 229 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: home from him or a room from even he knew 230 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: if you got a raise, and if you got a raise, 231 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: he would raise your rent. So this is a rental property, 232 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: one of his reynal properties that he sold to his 233 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: daughters so that they could have rental income. Apparently they 234 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: were they didn't feel like doing that, so they just 235 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: sold it back to him for like I think, increase. 236 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: Not bad for doing nothing. Uh. The other thing that 237 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: happened in the um actually the night before the murderer 238 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: is there uncle John John Vinnegam Morris, who was there, 239 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: deceased mother's brother. He came a call in, uh to 240 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: speak about out some business with Andrew. And Um, there's 241 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: a lot of speculation on what was going on here. 242 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: Basically they think that it just ramped up a tent 243 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: situation even more like he probably had his hand out 244 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: that maybe. I think it was fairly um common for 245 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: him to come by, and I think he was also, 246 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: I don't think he was supplicant to Andrew Borden. I 247 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: think they had business together a lot. Well, Lizzie didn't 248 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: like him, so I that's news to me too. Yeah. 249 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: She she apparently didn't even speak to him, she said 250 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: at the trial while he was there, right like, when 251 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: he came to visit and stay the night. She hadn't 252 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: spoken to him the whole time when he came and 253 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: then spent the night and then left the next morning. 254 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: Because it's very important. He was not in the house 255 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: when Andrew Borden came back into the house, right. Yeah. 256 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: And she never called him uncle John, which is the 257 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: dead giveaway if you love your uncle. Yeah. I just 258 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: I didn't realize there was animosity between the two. I 259 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: don't know if there necessarily was. Is one of the 260 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: problems that we're going to run into it over and 261 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: over again, and it's also one of the reasons why 262 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden's legend has remained alive for so long, Like, 263 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: we have a propensity to take very complex, complicated people 264 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: and they're very complex complicated relationships with one another and 265 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: boil them down into caricatures that we can understand and 266 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: easily explain. And so yeah, so over the century or so, 267 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: we've done the same thing to Lizzie Borden case. So 268 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: it's really easy to speculate on and it's also easy 269 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: to interpret little things one way or the other, which 270 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: also makes the whole thing a lot of fun. Yeah, 271 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: that one. Everyone loves a cold case. Yeah, alright, so 272 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: let's take a break and uh, we'll get back to 273 00:15:39,200 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: some of the nitty gritty deets right after this. So, Chuck, 274 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: you you were saying that the family it was tense 275 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: in the house. To be certain, it sounds like it 276 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: was always tense, but notably tense months leading up to 277 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: the murders. Yeah, and apparently at both Emma and Lizzie 278 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: took off for several weeks right before the murders. When 279 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: they came back, Lizzie didn't even come back to the house. 280 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: She rented a room for a few days. I guess 281 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: the ease herself back into having to live in this 282 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: house again. Kind of that's weird. Maybe three quarters of 283 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: the way house and she um, she and Emma both 284 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: stopped calling Mrs Borden mother all of a sudden around 285 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: the time that um, their father had given the house, 286 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: that extra house to her right, her sister was living in. 287 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: They started calling her Mrs Borden, including to her face. 288 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: That's pretty chilly, right, So that's tense. Like you say, 289 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: Uncle John Morris might have increased this tension. And the 290 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: house was very very chilly, civilly cordial to an extent, 291 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: but just it was a house full of adults who 292 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: were not getting along and and like you said, probably 293 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: hadn't been for a while. Yeah, then' there was a 294 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: matter of in juneo um, Andrew, the father killed a 295 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: bunch of pigeons in the barn outside the house to 296 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: make pigeons while so Abby could make a pigeon pie. 297 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: And supposedly Lizzie kind of thought of these pigeons as 298 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: her pets. So uh, that would not have been a 299 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: very cool thing to do if you know your daughter 300 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: loved these pigeons. So I'm in the mood for pigeon pie. Yeah. There. 301 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: He apparently also defended his actions by saying that he 302 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: was worried about intruders because local boys used to like 303 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 1: to come let themselves into their barn and hang out 304 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: with these pigeons and play with them. So he solved 305 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: two problems dinner and boys coming over by just killing 306 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: Lizzie's pigeons. That's right. And she also beyond just liking 307 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: these pigeons, she was also a huge animal lover. She's 308 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: a lot of money do it animal rights group, and 309 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: she died, so I mean, she probably would have taken 310 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: this fairly hard. On the flip side, though, so her 311 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: father just that characters caricature thing I was talking about. 312 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: Her father's painted is like this Ebenezer Scrooge type, super 313 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: miserly type visted. He definitely was that. But it's very 314 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: easy to extend this idea that he and Lizzie hated 315 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: each other, and that's absolutely not true. They both Lizzie 316 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: and Emma apparently very much loved their father, and their 317 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: father loved them. As a matter of fact, he wore 318 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: a pinky ring that Lizzie gave him when he was 319 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: when she was like fifteen, and he'd warn it every day, 320 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: never took it off, just like each other. A lot 321 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: only jewelry he ever wore. It was like there was 322 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: definite affection there that often gets overlooked when you're just 323 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: kind of painting this thing in broad strokes, you know. Yeah, 324 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: but like you said, he wasn't beloved in the town 325 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: because if you ask me if you have money and 326 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 1: you're a tight wade, it's like the worst thing it is, 327 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: does he have money? Be generous, That's what I say. Sure, 328 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, pick up checks, be generous with your friends. 329 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: If you have dough and your I don't know, I can, 330 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: it's not gonna make any friends. Let's just say that. 331 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: And it didn't in his case. So um, Also, if 332 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: you think about it, it is it reveals a lot 333 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: psychologically that the whole family has been eating the same 334 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: mutton for five days and the first thing that Mrs 335 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: Borden thinks of is that their milk is being poisoned 336 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: by one of her husband's business rivals. That's where her 337 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: mind went exactly. So there's a I mean, yeah, it's 338 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: it's not just inside this house the tension. It's also 339 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: coming from outside a little bit as well. Yeah, and uh, 340 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: I guess we'll go ahead and point out if you 341 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: have the the circumstantial evidence surrounding Lizzie. So, one of 342 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: the things was in the days before the murderer, she 343 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: was trying to uh, she's been seen trying to buy 344 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: a poisonous prussic acid. She said, yeah, she said she 345 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: wanted it to clean things. But other people, when the 346 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: trial said maybe she was trying to poison them. Although 347 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: autopsies revealed no poison in the bodies, no poison in 348 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,719 Speaker 1: the milk, no, but the prosecutors wanted to use that 349 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: to to suggest that she had murder on her mind. Inadmissible. 350 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: It was ruled and admissible because they figured it'd be 351 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: too inflammatory, and it was entirely possible that she really 352 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: did want to clean this seal skin coat with that stuff. 353 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: All right, what else? This is the dress? Things pretty 354 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: damning well, hold on, before we get any further into that, 355 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: let's let's let's talk about the actual murders. You're ready. 356 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: So it talkings. Fourth. Her father has just come back in. 357 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: He's laying down on the sofa, right, and he goes 358 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: to sleep, and he never wakes up. The reason he 359 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: never wakes up is because like you said he got 360 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: hit from behind and above about eleven times with an 361 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: axe and hit and about the same area, so that 362 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: basically his face was cut clean away into nothingness. Um, 363 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: probably a hatchet, not an X. Yeah, yeah, you're right, 364 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I hatch it. Um. And at about eleven ten, 365 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: Bridget was upstairs sleeping because again she's been throwing up 366 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: from the mutton um. When she gets roused by Lizzie 367 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: calling from downstairs saying, hurry, something's happened. She comes downstairs 368 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: and she says, someone's coming and killed father. So now 369 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,719 Speaker 1: this alert has just gone out. The first body has 370 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: been discovered, Andrew Borden, who's still bleeding right, and his 371 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: face is hacked away. It's pretty grotesque. You can see 372 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: the picture online. Yeah, so Bridget runs across the street 373 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: to the doctor to get him. Uh, comes back with 374 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: him and they say, where's your where's your mother? She's 375 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: like stepmother. They're like, where's your stepmother? And she says, uh, 376 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: somebody came with a note or something like that. I 377 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: think she went to go visit a sick friend who 378 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 1: knows and um, then she goes, well, actually I think 379 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: I heard her come back in why don't you guys 380 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: go look upstairs, and Bridget is like, I'm not looking upstairs. 381 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: There's a dead body here. How do we know there's 382 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: not another another dead body? So a neighbor lady and 383 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: Bridget goes upstairs and they see from the staircase into 384 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: the bedroom. It's really cool when you go on the 385 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: tour of the house, you can stand where they stood 386 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: and see exactly what they would have seen. And there's 387 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: Mrs borden All I think two forty pounds of her 388 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: laid down on the floor with the back of her 389 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: head just split wide open with something like eighteen blows 390 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: and again thirteen of them have been um, have just 391 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: completely crushed her skull. So now there's two dead bodies. 392 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: And eventually they are dragged into the dining room where 393 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: they're autopsied, and rather than be buried there before they're buried, 394 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: they're decapitated and their heads are sent to Harvard and 395 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: then eventually buried at the foot of their graves. Yes, 396 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: like all decapitated heads exactly. So um. Almost immediately the 397 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: cops went, uh, you yeah, you're the Lizzie was the 398 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: only person in the house right because Bridget was out 399 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: side when her around the time that her mother Um 400 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: would have been killed, Lizzie was ironing handkerchiefs with a 401 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: little mini iron and a little mini ironing board in 402 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: the dining room. Yeah, Emma was fifteen miles away out 403 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: of town. That's right. Uncle John Morris was away in 404 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: town at the post office. I think on business because 405 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: he doesn't need stamps dot com right. Yeah, and Andrew 406 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: Borden was in town on his own business as well. 407 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,719 Speaker 1: So Lislie was the only one in the house at 408 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: about nine thirty am, around the time when her stepmother 409 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: would have been murdered. She says that when her father 410 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: came home and laid down around the time he would 411 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: have been murdered, she wasn't in the house then. Yeah, 412 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: she said she uh went out to that barn that 413 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: she liked to hang out with the pigeons. Uh two, 414 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: and she was eating pears, just hanging out in the 415 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: loft eating pears, eating pears. And the reason she was 416 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: in the loftice because she's getting led to make sinkers 417 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: to go fishing with. Yeah, but she while she was there, 418 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: she's like, I like getting here in the hundred degree 419 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: was there especially upstairs in this loft, she's gonna eat 420 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: some pairs. So she ate some pairs minutes and when 421 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 1: she came back in she discovered her father called bridget 422 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: down in the whole chain of events entered the public 423 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: record around that time. Yes, uh so, we already mentioned 424 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: the prossic acid um. She was caught burning a dress. Yeah, 425 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: family friend witnessed her doing that, and then later uh 426 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: gave testimony about that, and that's what led to her 427 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: being indicted for murder. That's right. And she said that 428 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: the dress was stained and that's why she was burning it. 429 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: Staying with paint though, yes, staying with paint, right, But 430 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: this is three days after the murder. All of a sudden, 431 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: she's pulling a dress out of the coal shoot and saying, Ah, 432 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: this dress, the stain with paint. I'm just gonna go 433 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: a him and burn it. So this family friend, Alice, says, 434 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: I wouldn't do that if I were you, And Lizzie said, 435 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: shut up you, and Alice said okay and goes and 436 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: tells the cops. Uh So, in the basement they found 437 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: two axes, two hatchets, and then a hatchet head that 438 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: it had the handle broken off. They suspected that it 439 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: was broken off recently, and that hatchet had um they say, 440 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: looked like it had been planted there and covered with 441 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,239 Speaker 1: dust and ash to make it look like it had 442 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: been there a long time. Um, basically tampered with evidence. Wise. 443 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: One officer at the trial said, the handle is actually there, 444 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: and we found it. Another officer says, no, we didn't, 445 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: So who knows. Yeah, I think they The consensus is 446 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: among historians is that they never found his handle. Yes, 447 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: but it's never explained why. The one officer said they did. Yeah, so, um, 448 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: that hand that that hatchet had that they did find, though, Chuck. 449 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: They never conclusively showed that it was the murder weapon. 450 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: They just said this is probably a pretty good stand in, right, 451 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: And they never found any blood or anything on it, 452 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: which that's kind of difficult if you think to completely 453 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: get a hatchet head clean totally, right, So that's kind 454 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: of weird in essence, they never found the murder weapon essentially, Well, well, yeah, sure, 455 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: the prosecution said that this was it. Again, all suspicion 456 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: is just immediately falling onto Lizzie. Uh. And there were 457 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: a number of different um hearings and inquests and things 458 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: and grand juries before she was formally indicted um and 459 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: each time, apparently it looked like she was going to 460 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: get off because, despite what the cops thought at this time, 461 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: in this place and era, Victorian ladies did not murder 462 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: people with hatchets, So that in and of itself was 463 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: enough to get her off right, or to keep her 464 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: from even being indicted. But each time her friend Alice 465 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: from down the street would come in and say, I 466 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: saw Lizzie Byrne addressed that had some sort of brownish 467 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: red stain all over it, and the jury or the 468 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: judge or whoever would say, ah, we think that's enough. 469 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: And so finally it got to the point where I 470 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: think the grand jury was indicted her for three counts 471 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: of murder right, uh, one of her stepmother, one of 472 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: her father, and then one of her stepmother and father, 473 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: which is bizarre even at the time, but she was. 474 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: She faced three counts of murder, and they used the 475 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: hatchet head. That was their big case. But they had 476 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: some real problems. Number one, if that dress had been 477 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,959 Speaker 1: covered with blood, it was gone now. But number two, Emma, 478 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: her sister, said that dress actually was covered in paint. 479 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: That was just paint that had nothing to do with blood. Right, 480 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: And the big problem here is it almost goes without saying. 481 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: If somebody murdered Mrs Borden with a hatchet and then 482 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: murdered Mr. Borden with a hatchet, they would be covered 483 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: in blood twice. So what do you do? How? How 484 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: could you have gotten around that? One of the theories 485 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: was that Lizzie Borden stripped down, was naked, killed, Mrs Borden, 486 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: put her clothes back on, and then when she had 487 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: the chance to her close back off and then killed 488 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: her father and then rinsed off both times and put 489 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: her clean clothes back on. That probably didn't happen, though 490 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: probably not. We need to take another break, though, and 491 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: when we come back we will wrap up what happened 492 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: in the trials and what happened afterward. Right for this, 493 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: All right, we're back, Lizzie Borden on trial in big trouble, 494 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: and uh, a lot of circumstantial evidence, but no no 495 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,479 Speaker 1: hard evidence at this point at the trial. No smoking 496 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: gun as they say, no, not even want smoking hats, 497 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: No fingerprints, finger they didn't do any fingerprinting at this point. 498 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: Fingerprinting was new and uh, not really trustworthy. So they 499 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: didn't even bother. Well. Yeah, and pretty much every step 500 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: of the um police investigation was fouled up for the 501 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: to begin with, the murders took place while almost the 502 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: entire police force was off on the annual police picnic 503 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: out of town. Um, all these neighbors and looky loose 504 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: came through the crime scene and totally messed up. But 505 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: the big thing was is forensic science wasn't really a 506 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: big It wasn't in widespread use at the time. Yeah, 507 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: So at the trial they point out a lot of 508 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: incongruencies her. Her story changed a lot during the questioning, 509 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: which is a little weird. The cops went into the 510 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: barn and they said, you know, it's super hot in here. 511 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: I don't see how anyone would choose to just sit 512 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: here for twenty minutes and eat pairs. And we don't 513 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: see any footprints anywhere around, which was weird because two 514 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: workmen later testified that they had been up in that place, 515 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: um like the week before. Yeah, which, well, who knows 516 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: after a week what a footprint in a barn will do. Uh. 517 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: And then the day before the murders, Lizzie went to 518 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: her old friend Alice and said some weird things that 519 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: she felt like something bad was going to happen to 520 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: her family, almost like there was She said, I feel 521 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: as if something were hanging over me and I can't 522 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: throw it off, And she was frightened. So this sort 523 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: of looks like she was setting up an alibi. Yeah, 524 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: she said she was worried something bad was gonna happen 525 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: to her father. That was the day before the murders, 526 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: the night before him. Right. So for the prosecution, they 527 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: were like they took two pretty big hits. One the 528 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: prussic acid the cyanide got thrown out of evidence. Uh, 529 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: and then two so did um Lizzie's own testimony because 530 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: the judge determined that she had been on copious amounts 531 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: of morphine at the time, and they were contradictory, and 532 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: even at their base, they weren't admissions of guilt, they 533 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: were protestations, right. So, Um, the prosecution didn't have a 534 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: lot to go on. They had almost an entirely circum 535 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: not even almost a completely circumstantial case that really had 536 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: tons and tons of holes in it. That's right. It 537 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: was a two week trial. Lizzie never took the stand herself, 538 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: and um, it was it was huge. It was the 539 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: trial of the century. Um, she was deemed guilty. But 540 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: while the trial was taking place in her town, basically 541 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: in her town, newspapers all over the world at this point. 542 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: So the impression I have though, is that out of 543 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: town they had a different take on it, that these 544 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: these bumbling dummies, the yokels in Fall Fall River, Um, 545 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: we're trying to prosecute a woman for a crime that 546 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: clearly some maniac had had carried out and that they 547 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: should just leave her alone. Finally, interesting, Um, during the trial, 548 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: this helped the sensationalized aspect of it. They actually brought 549 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: in the chopped up skulls and presented it and like 550 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: it was out of a TV movie. Lizzie saw this, Uh, 551 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: swooned and fainted, which of course was going to get 552 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: some sympathy from the jury. And um, it didn't take long. 553 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: It was about ninety minutes and the jury said not 554 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: guilty and she got away with it. So thinks many 555 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: many people, what do you think. I don't know, Well, 556 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: here's some here's some theories. One that she was like 557 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: in a fugue state and committed these murders. Uh, yeah, 558 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: but a feuge state that lasted ninety minutes where she 559 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: was able to conceal the murder weapon in her own 560 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: guilt and wait for her father to come home and 561 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: fall asleep. That's not a FuG states what they say, 562 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,239 Speaker 1: and it could have been less than ninety minutes if 563 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: you take the shorter side of both ends of the 564 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: murders of the time range. Uh. One was that she 565 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: was gay and that she was having an affair with 566 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: the maid. They were caught by the stepmother. She was 567 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: really super mad and so Lizzie killed her with a candlestick. 568 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: And then I went and confessed this to her father, 569 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: thinking that he might understand, and he got really mad 570 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: and so they killed both kill him. Okay, that's another theory. 571 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: One that she was abused by her father sexually and 572 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: physically abused, although there's no evidence to substantiate this. Right 573 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: one is that the maid um There was a deathbed 574 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: confession from the maid to her own sister, um, which 575 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: no one knows if that's true or not. Yeah, I mean, 576 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: the maid was most likely not a lesbian. It's entirely 577 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: possible that Lizzie Borden was, because later on after the murder, 578 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: she and her sister continued to live together. They bought 579 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: a mansion in the well healed part of um Fall 580 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: River and Lizzie named at Maple Croft and Um the 581 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: Maid eventually remarried, got married. Well, she just totally falls 582 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: off the map for five years and then pops up 583 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: again and Butte Montana and gets married and dies in Um. 584 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: But Lizzie and her sister lived together until nineteen o five, 585 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, her sister moves out 586 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: of the house and they never speak again for twenty 587 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: two years until they die. And uh it's Some people 588 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: say that it was because her sister didn't improve of 589 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: a relationship with this um woman named Nance O'Neill. Yeah, Um, 590 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: which is entirely possible. Who knows what happened? Um. It 591 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: could have been that her sister believed she was innocent 592 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: and then finally Lizzie admitted it in five and her 593 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: sister was like, I am done with you. Who knows. 594 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: One of the other theories is that William Borden, who 595 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: was the illegitimate son of Andrew and also a butcher, um, 596 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: was the the Basically he killed him because of like 597 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: failed extortion attempts. So was he proven to exist William 598 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: B Yeah, I thought he was hypothetical. Is he like 599 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: a real person? I think so? Huh uh. And then 600 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: the final two was that Emma did it and had 601 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: the perfect alibi and setting up that she was fifteen 602 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: miles away. Uh, And that Uncle John did it who 603 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: was there visiting, so basically anyone who had anything to 604 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: do closely with the family. There the theory that they 605 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: did it right, Yeah, And these are all theories, Like 606 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: if you look at the evidence, you can, I think 607 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: you can basically get rid of everybody except Lizzie. And 608 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: there were some big problems with their story to like, 609 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: even if you believe she's innocent, there's some stuff you 610 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: really have to contend with. Like, for example, she says 611 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: she was in the house at the time her stepmother 612 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: would have been killed, and her stepmother was like two 613 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: forty pounds, and the police came and they dropped a 614 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: two hundred pound weight in the place where her stepmother 615 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: had fallen when she would have been killed. And um, 616 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: the cop downstairs, whose job it was to listen to 617 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: hear if you heard anything, said it felt like the 618 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,439 Speaker 1: whole house shook right. So, and Lizzie's like, I didn't 619 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: hear anything. That's that's kind of a weird thing, right. Um. 620 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: Then Lizzie also was she behaved rather strangely here there, 621 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: Like when the neighbor came over, she was like, oh, 622 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: Mrs Churchill, do come in. Someone's come in and killed father, Like, 623 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: come in for tea. There's just a lot of weird 624 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: stuff that she's done. And then the dad was posed 625 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: afterward on the couch. Yeah, his favorite coat was rolled 626 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: up beneath his head. Yeah, and he had his arms 627 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: folded over in his lap and it's just creepy. Yeah. 628 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: But if you really look at all the evidence to 629 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: especially the prosecution's case, there's no way that that jury 630 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: should have convicted her. They definitely did the right thing 631 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,919 Speaker 1: and acquitting her because they had there was no case 632 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,439 Speaker 1: against her really. Yeah. I mean she was little, She's 633 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: like five ft one, and basically one of the big 634 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: defense points was like this, this tiny little lady just 635 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: couldn't have done this. These were like brutal, powerful, forceful 636 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: blows with this hatchet. And uh, despite I mean the 637 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: fact that she has crazy guys. Maybe it's just that 638 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: one picture. I don't know, but it definitely didn't do 639 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: her any favors in history, like that one big photo 640 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: of her. She looks like a psycho killer. She does, 641 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: you know a little bit for sure. But they said 642 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: that there's no way this little lady could have done this, 643 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 1: and that was kind of one of their main defense points. 644 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: But it didn't matter what happened because everyone thought she 645 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: did it. And she would go to church and have 646 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: people whisper about her and kids through rocks at her 647 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: windows for years and through rotten eggs at her house 648 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: and ding Dong ditch and basically was shunned by her 649 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: local town folk yeah, as a murderous and even the people, 650 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: all the out of towners who came and used her 651 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: as you know, to promote their own stuff, like the 652 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: Suffragettes like made her, uh, basically a hero. By the 653 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: time she died, like most people had left her Um 654 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: and she she died a fairly lonely old woman, despite 655 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: having not spoken to her sister in twenty two years. 656 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: They died within nine days of each other. Lizzie died first, 657 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: and then Emma and Sweetly Oddly weirdly Um all of 658 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: the Bordens, Lizzie, Emma, Andrew Abby, the original Mrs Borden, Uh, 659 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: and their sister, who died as a child, are all 660 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: buried next to one another in the family plot. Yeah, 661 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: that's normal. It's not weird. That's just how they did things, 662 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: not weird. Um. She did change her name to which 663 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: I thought was you didn't go far enough. She changed 664 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: her name to Elizabeth Borden. I might have gone with 665 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: something completely different without l I z even in the name. 666 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: That would have been my recommendation, maybe like Tammy Borden 667 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: or something, or Tammy Smith. Oh yeah, you could get 668 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: rid of the boarding. You know. She's like, hmm, I 669 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: want to disappear. How about Elizabeth Borden instead of Lizzie Borden. 670 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: Suspect that izz And she was pretty young. She was 671 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: sixty six when she died. Yeah, and her sister was 672 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: like a several almost a decade older than um. So 673 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: she died at a I guess a respectable old age. 674 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: Lizzie died young if her sister didn't even die of anilence. 675 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: She fell down the stairs supposedly with push marks in 676 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: her lower back. Right, So we've basically just given like 677 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: a really like broad overview. You can dedicate all of 678 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: your spare time to this case. It's really fascinating and 679 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff on it on the internet too. 680 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: And if you're ever in the Providence or Boston area, like, 681 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 1: do yourself a favor and go down to the Lizzie 682 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 1: boarden house and take the tour. It's pretty cool. Yeah, 683 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: it's a ben breakfast that you can stay in supposedly 684 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 1: haunted allegedly. Yeah. Yeah, if you believe in that kind 685 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,240 Speaker 1: of stuff. Wait our new evidence though we didn't reveal it. Okay, 686 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: go ahead, I have none. Man, you scared me. I thought, 687 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,399 Speaker 1: like you really did. After a second, that would be great. 688 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be sitting on that Uh. And you can 689 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: type Lizzie board and all you want in the search bar. 690 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: It just turns up some lame definition of her, I 691 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: think on our site. So just go look elsewhere. And 692 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: since I said elsewhere, it's time for listener mail. Greetings 693 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: gents and Jerry Ornel or empty space. Um. I've recently 694 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: developed somewhat of a novel biological effect or remember we 695 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: talked about those, uh, And it's taught me a lot 696 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: about how I did and how I should be carrying 697 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: myself in the world. Um, I'd like to believe I've 698 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: been polite about it, but I'm definitely the type of 699 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: person has a hard time not noticing and having my 700 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 1: attention drawn to irregularities about people, especially on their faces. 701 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: About two weeks ago, I developed a bacterial infection of 702 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: my skin that covers about half of my forehead and 703 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: extends down to one eye, causing redness and swelling that 704 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: makes the eye remain more closed than the other in 705 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: arresting state. I was surprised of how many of my 706 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: friends and strangers in public I could tell are distracted 707 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: by it when talking to me, and it made me 708 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: feel a little self conscious on top of my own 709 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: hang ups about such things. I think I've learned a 710 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: little bit from the experience about what it might be 711 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: like to be someone that goes through their whole life 712 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: in this situation. In my case, at least, it's not 713 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,879 Speaker 1: as simple as just ignoring the condition, but it goes 714 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: a long way for people to acknowledge it and be 715 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: able to accept it without judgment. Thanks for the work 716 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: you guys do for keeping me company with a wide 717 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: variety of topics. That is from Andrew in Utah. Thanks 718 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: a lot, Andrew, We appreciate that. Yeah, sorry to hear 719 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: about that, man, and but I like your attitude about it, 720 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: fresh perspective. It's brought you if you got a brush 721 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 1: with fresh perspective, we want to hear about that, no 722 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 1: matter what it has to do with. You can tweet 723 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: to us. Oh wait, Chuck, we want to say Happy 724 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: New Year at everybody, Happy New Year, and happy birthday 725 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 1: you me, Happy birthday, you me? Okay, So if you want, 726 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 1: you can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast. 727 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,760 Speaker 1: You can join us on Facebook, dot com, slash Stuff 728 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: you Should Know. You can send us an email to 729 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast the house at first dot com and has 730 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: always joined us at Home on the web, Stuff you 731 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: Should Know dot com for more on this and thousands 732 00:41:53,200 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works dot com