WEBVTT - What’s New in Public Destination Golf? 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.560 One of the biggest stories in the golf course industry 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:05.400 over the past thirty years has been the rise of 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:10.320 the destination golf resort, starting with Bandon Dunes in the 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:14.200 nineties and still going strong today with the post COVID 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:18.840 surge and development. So where are we now with public 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.640 destination golf? How has it changed over the past three 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:27.160 decades and what have been its effects on golf architecture. 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.200 That's what we're talking about in this episode. My guest 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:35.560 is Mike Kaprowski, the golf architect behind the first course 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.720 at a new destination in the Carolina sand Hills called 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:44.600 Candy Root Lodge. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is Designing Golf, 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.520 all right. Before we bring on Mike Kaprowski to discuss 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.800 Candy Root Lodge, let's talk about the current state of 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:05.200 public destination golf. You know, the interesting thing about the 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:11.280 surge in golf course development since COVID is that it's uneven. 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:16.320 You know, there hasn't been like a general expansion of 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:20.360 the game's footprint like we saw in the twenties or 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.640 the sixties or the nineties. What we've gotten instead, I think, 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:29.000 is a focus on certain regions and certain types of 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:33.240 golf courses, especially if you're talking about new build projects, 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.839 that is, projects that produced golf courses where there weren't 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.880 previously golf courses. In the US, in particular, we've seen 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.080 a lot of new build action in Texas, the Carolinas, 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:53.360 and Florida, and a disproportionate emphasis on destination golf. There 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:57.280 have been renovations and restorations and redesigns of existing properties 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.600 happening as well, But if you're talking about new build 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:05.760 golf development, what you're really talking about is these regions 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.600 and destination golf. So I want to give you a 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:16.440 snapshot of the public destination golf projects happening right now. 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.200 And this is not an exhaustive list. I'm just going 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.120 to talk about the projects that I find especially notable 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.880 or interesting. First, the one we're talking about in this 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:31.320 episode Candy Rout Lodge in South Carolina, about an hour 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.480 and a half from Charlotte, North Carolina. I get my 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:36.880 Carolinas mixed up all the time, by the way, I 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:38.880 think I've said a number of times that Candy Root 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.519 Lodge is in North Carolina, which it's not, but it's 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:46.600 close to, relatively close to Charlotte first course designed by 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:52.040 my guest Mike Kaprowski. He's also helping to build a 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:58.080 short course alongside Michelle Wee West, Okay. Outside of Candy Route, 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:03.600 we have a space eight of developments spearheaded by Michael 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.000 Kaiser Junior that is the son of Mike Kaiser, the 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:11.760 founder of Bandon Dunes. First, there's the Commons at Sand 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.720 Valley in Wisconsin. This is a twelve hole short course, 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:18.200 not really a short course, more of an executive course 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:22.840 right an afternoon course, designed by Jim Craig. It'll open 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:27.480 for resort play in July this year. Then there's Rodeo 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:32.000 Dunes new resort about forty five minutes northeast of the 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:36.440 Denver International Airport. The first course, designed by Corn Crenshaw, 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.840 will open to the public in twenty twenty seven. Jim 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.120 Craig is working on the second course at the resort. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.960 Then there's Wild Spring Dunes in East Texas, about two 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.360 and a half hours from both Dallas and Houston. The 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.920 first course is designed by Tom Doak. It'll open in September. 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.440 And then there's a Corn Crenshaw course under constructions to 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:05.520 be completed in twenty twenty seven. Finally Old Shores in 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.880 the Floor to Panhandle. The first course by Tom Doak 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.720 is under construction now with a grand opening possible in 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.760 fall twenty twenty seven, and the second course will be 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:21.119 designed by Brian Schneider. So those are all destination golf 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:27.120 projects currently underway in Michael Kaiser's growing empire. A lot 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:31.640 happening there. Michael Kaiser recently founded his own company Sanborn 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:36.640 and so he's making definitely some significant moves on his 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.599 own and these three brand new resorts extraordinary that the 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.200 three of them have been founded in the twenty twenties alone. 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.160 Rodeo Dunes, Wildspring Dunes, Old Shores are really his projects. 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.680 Another big player in the destination golf market right now 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:56.800 is Cabot. There's Cabot Highlands in the Scottish Highlands, very 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:02.039 close to Inverness. Before Cabot purchased this resort, it was 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.000 known as Castle Stewart and it featured one seaside course 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.440 by Gil Hants. There's now a new course called Old 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:13.839 Petty designed by Tom Doak. It opened for resort play 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:20.000 a few weeks ago. Another ongoing Cabot project is Cabot Revelstoke. 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.960 I think I pronounced that correctly, but I'm not sure 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.560 this is in British Columbia. In the Canadian Rockies, as 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:30.799 far as I understand, very remote, very mountainous. The first 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:35.120 course is designed by Whitman, Exland and Cutton. It's under 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.880 construction and expected to open for preview play in fall 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.760 twenty twenty six and for resort play in twenty twenty seven. 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:48.280 So Cabot and Michael Kaiser Junior by themselves are generating 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:52.920 a lot of the current energy in the destination golf market, 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.680 but there are some other interesting projects by other developers. 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.760 Seven Mile Beach in Hobar, Tasmania, the South course by 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.240 Mike Clayton and Mike Devrees had its full opening in 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:10.320 December twenty twenty five, and the north course at seven 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.920 Mile Beach will be designed by King Collins Dormer and 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.320 is looking to come online in twenty twenty nine. Going 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.960 back to the US, stream Song Resort in Florida is 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.680 continuing to expand with a new course called Bone Valley. 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:30.800 This is in addition to stream Songs existing Red, Blue 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.599 and Black courses, as well as its short course called 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.560 the Chain. Bone Valley is a David McLay kid design, 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.520 which has set an opening date of January twenty sixth, 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:49.560 twenty twenty seven. Now. Lastly, the two og American destination 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:54.480 golf resorts, Pebble Beach and Pinehurst, are also making moves. 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.599 Spanish Bay Golf Links, owned by the Pebble Beach Company, 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:02.680 is undergoing a redesign by gil Hants right now. It'll 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:07.039 reopen in April twenty twenty seven, just in time for 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.920 the US Open at pebble Beach, and Pinehurst is in 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:15.440 the midst of building Pinehurst Number eleven with Coren Crenshaw 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:20.360 next door to Pinehurst Number ten the recent Tom Doak design. 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:25.920 These two courses constitute Pinehurst sand Mines, which is kind 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.640 of an outpost of the resort, a little bit removed 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.320 from the main campus of Pinehurst. It'll have its own 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:38.480 lodging and practice facilities eventually, and the Number eleven course 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:43.640 is expected to open in fall twenty twenty seven. So 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:48.120 that's just a quick spin through the ongoing projects in 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:53.320 the public destination golf sector that I'm interested in. It's 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.760 a lot, you know, there are a ton of courses 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.680 of this type opening in twenty twenty seven alone, but 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:06.520 there are some unifying themes and trends that I'm noticing here. 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.600 So if I can kind of summarize all these projects 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.120 and make them make sense as a group, I would 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.760 say that we are seeing some interesting changes in what 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:23.480 public destination golf means. First of all, location. A lot 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:28.679 of these developments are starting to prioritize proximity to major 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:33.360 metro areas, and this is a shift away from the 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:37.000 band in Dune's model, which was effectively, if you build it, 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.240 they will come. It doesn't matter where it is. If 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.400 the land is extraordinary enough, if the golf is exceptional, 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.360 then people will seek it out. These new resorts are 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.560 more conveniently located, and I think this has to do 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.920 with the discovery that golfers are willing to go back 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:59.360 to certain destination resorts over and over again. There's more 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:03.560 repeat business at these places than I think even they're 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:08.560 founders expected, and this has to do with broader social 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:13.320 shifts in family life and country club usage. It's more 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:19.960 common now for homes to split labor between parents, for 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.959 there to be two salary earners in a household, and 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:28.480 for childcare to be shared. And what this means is 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.160 that there's maybe a little bit less time in people's 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.560 everyday lives for a country club, and to an extent, 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.480 for some people, the destination golf resort has replaced the 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.000 country club. You go on these occasional trips, you play 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.320 a lot of golf, you have your fun, you maybe 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.679 even do it a couple of times a year. But 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.240 then when you're home, you're not going to the club. 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:54.360 And so these new destination resorts that are an hour, 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:58.520 two hours, two and a half hours from big cities, 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.840 what they're saying is you can use us as a 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.640 sort of home away from home. This is a frequent retreat, 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.520 not a once in a lifetime retreat. And in that sense, 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:16.120 a lot of these new destination places are more regional 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.160 in their appeal. Yeah, they want to attract players from 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.760 all over, but they're looking for repeat customers right in 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:27.320 their region, and that is a major difference. The second 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:31.600 big trend I'm seeing in these new developments is related, 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.440 and it's a willingness to move away from the golf 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:38.960 only model that defined Bandon Dunes. Bandon Dunes was a 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:43.840 reaction to residential golf and all the unnecessary stuff around 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:49.360 golf that had become assumed to be necessary. Right Bandon 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.480 Dunes was stripping it all away and saying we're just 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:57.120 doing golf here. Well, these new destination resorts are saying, yeah, 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.680 this is a pure golf experience, but also so maybe 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:04.480 there's a wellness spa like in the case of Candy Root, 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.880 or maybe there are different sports you can play here, 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.199 like tennis, or you can do some whitewater rafting. Maybe 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:15.080 there are some family activities that appeal to kids and 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:19.600 non golfing spouses. In many cases, there is a real 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:23.960 estate component. Cabit as a company is very invested in 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:28.559 real estate. Now they remove the houses a little bit 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.640 from the golf course, but the real estate is there 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.560 and it's a big revenue source for the resort. So overall, 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:40.160 I think what's happening is this attempt to balance the 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:45.760 spirit of that Bandon Dune's idea with offerings for the 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:51.040 full family and additional revenue streams. That's a lot of 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:55.479 I think what these new resorts are are trying to accomplish. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:59.440 The final big trend is on the architectural side, and 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:04.200 that has been another balance. This balance, I think between 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:09.080 maintaining the status quo of the past thirty years and 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:14.360 exploring new avenues in golf course design, we are seeing 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.599 a lot of the same architects get these jobs. You 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.520 may have noticed it as I was going through the 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.200 list of ongoing projects. A lot of Tom Doak, a 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.440 lot of Corn Crenshaw than David McLay Kidd and Gil 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.679 Hans get a few of the other jobs. And then 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.760 there's you know, kind of next generation architects, but those 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.680 are primarily architects who were trained by Tom Doak or 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:39.880 Bill Court. So there is a broad affinity between a 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:43.920 lot of these new destination golf courses. But we're also 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:48.720 seeing developers and architects push in some new directions. The 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.520 recent courses at San Valley are a good example. You 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.679 have the Leado, a reproduction of a lost C. B. 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:59.240 McDonald design. Then you have Sedge Valley, a more compact 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:05.199 Part sixty nine golf course than the Commons twelve holes, sporty, 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:12.280 family oriented afternoon course. So my hope for destination golf 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:18.199 in the future is that this kind of architectural experimentation continues. 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.880 I don't want to see developers and architects grow complacent. 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:28.200 These resorts could be a great laboratory for new and 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.400 different kinds of design, and so it matters to me 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:36.680 less that lots of different architects are hired, and it 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.960 matters to me more that the architects who do get 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:44.320 these jobs are pushing to do new things because at 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.599 these resorts they do not have to meet the conventional 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:52.200 standards of championship golf. They are serving people on vacation, 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:58.120 and those people should be open to unusual experiences because 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:02.120 they're on vacation, they're having fun, they're not competing, they're 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:07.720 they're not necessarily maintaining their handicaps, and so different types 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:10.800 of golf should have a home at these at these 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:15.359 destination golf resorts. So I hope, I hope that developers 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:21.040 and architects see that as an opportunity and don't underestimate 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.920 the so called retail golfer. Now, one architect that I 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.920 do think is willing to try new things is Mike Kaprowski, 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:33.520 my guest for this episode. Mike, as I mentioned before, 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.840 is designing the first eighteen hole course at Candy Rout Lodge. 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.280 He was also the co designer of Broomsedge in South 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.480 Carolina with Kyle Franz. But Mike actually has not been 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.200 in this profession for very long. He made a career 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:54.080 previously in the military and then in politics before deciding 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.880 to jump into golf architecture. His first golf course project 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.640 was just a few years ago, helping Kyle Friends with 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.640 a renovation of Southern Pines Golf Club. So, you know, 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.280 this is a really interesting story and i'd recommend finding 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.240 out more about Mike. It's not the subject of this episode, 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:15.240 but Mike did an interview in November twenty twenty four 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.240 with Andy Johnson on the Friday Golf Podcast, and I'd 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.440 really recommend listening to that because it's you know, if 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:27.040 you've ever fantasized about changing careers in your mid to 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.840 late thirties, then Mike's story is going to resonate with you. 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:35.040 But in this episode, we're talking about Candy Root and 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.680 about the state of destination public golf. Let's get to it, 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.480 all right. Mike Kaprowski is here. Mike, thanks for being 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:48.920 on the pod. 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.160 Yeah, thanks, excited to be here. Love what you're doing 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:53.920 with this pod, So happy to be a part of it. 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:58.440 Thank you so much. So we're talking about public destination 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.240 golf in this episode today, and you are in the 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:06.240 midst of a big public destination golf project at Candy 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:12.080 Route Lodge outside of Charlotte, North Carolina. You're designing the 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.200 first course at Candy Route and co designing a short 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:20.080 course alongside Michelle Wee West. Now, the usual way that 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.680 golf course projects work is that, you know, a developer 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.760 finds a piece of land and then brings on an architect. 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.560 But in the case of Candy Route, my understanding is 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.360 that it was the other way around, right, You found 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.680 the land and then brought on the developer. Is that accurate? 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:41.160 Yeah? Yeah, Well, I guess in my golf career so far, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.280 I've never done things in the normal way, so why 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.880 start now? But yeah, that's exactly right. It was just 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.280 as so Broomsedge was opening up. 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:56.200 Broomsedge is is the course that you designed alongside Kyle 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:00.920 Franz and in Rembert, South Carolina opened up, I guess 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:02.080 a couple of years ago. 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.920 Correct, And so, I mean I had so much fun 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:10.119 doing broom Sedge, and so I was just kind of 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.480 like Broom was just opening up, and and I was 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.840 thinking about, you know, what's what's next, And you know, 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.879 there were some other projects, but there was there was 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.159 a great appeal of being able to sleep in my 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.119 own bed and work on a new golf course. So 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.919 that was really really nice. I have young kids and 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:29.600 my wife was in law school at the time, so 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.199 we had a lot going on, and so I was 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.720 thinking of, you know, the potential of a public golf 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:40.359 course somewhere in the somewhere in the sand Hills. You know, 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.040 just had fun with fun with Broom and figured why 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.000 why I stopped the party? So I had had my 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.760 eye on kind of the sand Hills is a strange 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.400 little cord or. It's like only thirty five miles wide, 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.040 and it goes from North Carolina to South Carolina kind 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.720 of into Georgia. But there's this little portion of the 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.679 sand Hills that actually juts up north. There's like a 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:06.080 little finger that juts north up towards Charlotte, and so 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.879 you can actually get you know, a sandy site within 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.679 an hour of Charlotte. Charlotte's known for its sort of 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.000 you know, red clay, but there was this little finger 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:17.680 that I was interested in. I'm like, jeez, you could 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:22.399 actually get decently close to a major metro area. In 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.560 this particular area, there was like, I don't seven million 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.199 people within a ninety minute drive, So it felt like 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.400 this could be a really cool spot for public off 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:33.920 in the sand hills. You know. Of course, most of 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:38.040 the explosion of new builds in the Carolinas has been 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:44.560 almost exclusively private. And so there was a timber company 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.080 that had just they had just listed a bunch of 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.720 acres for sale kind of in the exact spot that 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.959 I had been eyeing. And this is sort of this 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.600 is kind of how they do it. They clear cut sites, 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.000 and then they realized, well, you know, there's it's twenty 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:00.639 years before we're gonna make any money on the on 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.359 these trees again. And so then they just listed for sale. 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:06.680 And so I was just drive along. I had seen 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.879 this listed on I don't know, some some website or something, 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.879 and just was I think en route either to broom 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:18.360 Sedge or from Broomsedge, uh to my house in Pinehurst, 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:20.560 and I was gonna drive right by it anyway, So 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.560 I figured out, what, you know, what the hell stopped 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.600 by it. And because it was just clear cut, you 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:28.800 could literally just kind of walk a few feet onto 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.280 the property and you could see the see the vistas 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.440 out there because there it wasn't a jungle like Broomsedge, 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:35.200 was it was. It was pretty much a clear cut 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:40.600 and immediately said, like, whoa, this one's gonna push the 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.439 limits of what's topographically possible. I didn't know that the 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:48.240 sand Hills could be that steep in, that aggressive, but 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.879 but holy cow, and so long, very long story short, 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.760 a guy by the name of Aaron Oberman, who is 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:01.040 the owner and developer of Candy Route, I had gotten 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:05.440 a know erin through broom Sedge. Aarin was the first, 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.960 really the first guy to ever give us money for 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.760 the planning process for broom Sedge. And so Aarin kind 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:14.879 of took an early leap of faith with us and 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:17.639 gave us some money for just early like permitting and 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.520 planning purposes. And then Aaron stayed in a in a 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:24.119 minority owner capacity throughout Broomsedge, and so Aarin kind of 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.000 had a front row seat, but he wasn't driving the bus, 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:29.840 if you will. And I think Aaron got you know, 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.840 got the bug through that process. And he had been 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.040 talking to me about, you know, wanting to do something 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.240 in the southeast that was a sort of a major 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:44.959 public golf resort. And so you know, our pass crossed 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:49.479 again and Aaron took over that initial parcel that I 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.320 had been eyeing from you know, from the road, and 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:54.800 then since then Aaron and his brother Ethan have a 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:59.560 masked twelve hundred some odd acres. Most of that is contiguous, 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.680 some of it's just a little bit, you know, four 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:04.600 minutes down the road. But yeah, I mean, their their 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.320 plan is, you know, go big. They want to do 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.240 four golf courses and uh, you know, four regulation courses 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.240 in a in a short course. I have the first 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.120 course of course that's under construction right now. We've we've 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.720 been grassing for the past couple of weeks. So the 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:22.600 cool thing is, you know, the course that I'm doing 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.159 now is I'm the land that I initially identified. So 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.840 that that's been really cool and we should be you know, 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:34.639 open for previewplay this fall. And then yeah, Michelle, we 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:37.920 is gonna do the short course along with my help, 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:40.919 and we've got along really well so far, and I 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.440 think we'll do something really cool there. And then whenever 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.679 Aaron's ready, I think he'll he'll announce course you know, 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:51.400 courses two, three, and four. Architects. But it's cool. I mean, 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:55.119 it's it's a really it's a really cool site. It's 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.600 it's conveniently located in the middle of nowhere as a 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:00.600 as I've said about Broom, but this is even more 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.000 conveniently located in the middle of nowhere. Literally you can 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.879 fly into Charlotte and you're there and in an hour. 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.520 But it still feels very you know, still feels very 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.440 rural when you're out there, So that that's sort of 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.920 the origin story. But yeah, I essentially brought the brought 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.240 at least a portion of what ultimately will become Candy Route. 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.679 I brought that portion of land to Erin and the 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:22.479 rest is history. 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:26.800 So take me back to that specific moment when you 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.639 when you saw the land for the first time. What 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.399 what did you see that got you excited about the 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.320 potential of this property for golf. You mentioned that it's 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:42.760 pretty dramatic or severe unexpectedly so for the Carolina sand Hills. 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:45.560 By the way, the Carolina Sandhills is also you know, 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.440 the same it's the same system that you see the 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:53.520 Pinehurst courses sitting on, and so it extends up to 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:56.240 to where you're building this course. But you know, at 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:59.240 that moment when you're kind of driving up to it, 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:02.679 what are you looking at and what's resonating with you 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:04.120 about about this piece of land. 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:06.760 Yeah, I really when I first drove up to it, 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.239 I really hadn't done any homework at all. I mean 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.560 I hadn't even downloaded atap a map, so I really 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:15.360 didn't know this was haphazard. Pull over to the side 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:17.600 of the road and see what it looks like. And 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:21.480 I pulled over to what is now sort of close 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.720 to the tenth te box, which, by happenstance, is one 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:28.560 of the best fistas on the on the property. No 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:31.119 surprise that the logging road is carved in at the 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:33.720 at sort of the highest ground, So I just used 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:35.560 a logging road to go in there. And I looked 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.760 out over the site and really the first thing I 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:42.840 saw was almost a a ridge so steep that I 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:45.040 think you would probably classify it as a as a 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.320 slip face, sort of the backside of a dune where 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:54.680 it gets extremely extremely sharp slip face. I think that's 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:55.280 what it's called. 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:57.680 I've never I've never heard that before. No I would. 0:23:57.680 --> 0:23:59.720 I would dress you to know the terminology, but that's 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:01.720 I'm going to use that. 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:03.520 I'll feel like an idiot if I got the wrong one. 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.679 But I think that's what it is. But it's I 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:09.879 mean it's really sharp off off the backside, sharper than 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:12.239 anything I had seen in the area. And I live 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:14.040 in this area, so I'm always, you know, driving down 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.800 inside of the road looking at stuff. But it was 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:19.080 super steep, almost to the point where it looked almost 0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:22.719 cliff like to where you I mean, if you you know, 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:26.120 if you drove something off it, you you would die. 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:30.240 And so that was appealing from a golf standpoint of 0:24:30.320 --> 0:24:33.400 this is holy cow. I mean, this is incredibly aggressive. 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:36.280 I could imagine hitting off it, hitting around it, hitting 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:41.080 into it, and then just kind of walked around a 0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:44.320 little bit and and realized that not only were these 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:48.960 sort of abrupt features out there, but it was also 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:53.760 a very steep site as well. So the entire courses 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:57.240 is sort of benched into a big side slope. It's 0:24:57.280 --> 0:25:00.280 a it's a descending sand hill, and it's all going 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:05.640 down to this major creek that sits below. And so 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:08.479 the whole thing was just kind of sitting on a tilt, 0:25:09.800 --> 0:25:12.680 but not a single plane tilt right it was it 0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:16.639 was dissected by these massive kind of valleys and fingers, 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:20.800 so that the property doesn't just descend predictably, it descends 0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:25.040 with these long, narrow fingers and in between these fingers, 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:29.080 just like centuries of erosion have shaped these these deep gullies. 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:32.520 And in some of the cases the gullies actually became wetlands, 0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:35.040 which of course we have to avoid in the routing. 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:39.000 But other times they stayed dry and we're not wetlands, 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:41.520 and so we actually run holes through those low valleys. 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:45.159 So it was, Yeah, it just struck me as a 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:49.280 different type of landform than I had seen before in 0:25:49.359 --> 0:25:52.320 the sandhills, and so immediately it sparked my interest. And 0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:55.200 then at that point, Broy, the minute I got home, 0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:58.160 you know, go to the state's website, download the top 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:01.080 o map, look at the soils, pretty sandy based on 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:03.200 what I saw, but starting to download the soils maps 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:04.480 and all that sort of stuff, and then you just 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.720 start to kind of you know, then from there you're 0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:10.040 like ooh, okay, okay, and then you start to play 0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:13.320 with some routings and you say okay, and then you 0:26:13.359 --> 0:26:15.920 start to visualize it in some kind of three D fashion, 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:18.359 and then you start walking your routings, and before you 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:20.919 know it, you feel pretty confident that a world class 0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:25.679 course could could be out there. So yeah, and It 0:26:25.720 --> 0:26:29.320 had all the other sort of business advantages to it 0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:31.439 as well, in terms of its location and within an 0:26:31.440 --> 0:26:34.160 hour of Charlotte, and the fact that the public golf 0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:37.520 scene in Charlotte's I think leaves some to be desired. 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:39.400 I think there's certainly a market there we can tap into. 0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:44.919 Even the private scene in Dallas or in Charlotte. 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:47.560 Is interesting Freudian slip there, because I. 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:50.200 Did live in Dallas once upon a time, so I'm 0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:51.200 going back to those days. 0:26:51.359 --> 0:26:54.600 Yeah No, But Charlotte's you know, growing city. A lot 0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:57.840 of wealth has come into that city and the twenty 0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:00.120 twenties and it's a it's a rope. 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:04.520 Yep, it is. It is. And you know, based on 0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:08.040 what I've researched and talked to folks in the Charlotte community, 0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:11.560 even the private scene is I mean, there's not a 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:14.120 single club that's not on a serious wait list right now. 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:17.719 So there's a you know, Charlotte is growing incredibly fast, 0:27:17.800 --> 0:27:19.840 and I don't know that the golf supply has really 0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:21.359 kept up. So it had all the kind of the 0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:23.760 business advantages. It was something that I felt could be 0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:29.080 world class from a golf standpoint, and yeah, ran with it. 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:32.000 You talked about putting together the routing and kind of 0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:35.720 general terms, what does the routing key in on in 0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:38.360 this piece of land? Are there are there certain features 0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:40.440 that are kind of the center of gravity in the routing. 0:27:40.920 --> 0:27:43.680 Yeah, there's a little bit of a bow tie element 0:27:43.800 --> 0:27:47.000 to it where it kind of intersects a couple times 0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:52.080 with itself. So more or less, the routing starts at 0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:55.200 the high ground and then it immediately I guess it's 0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:57.679 shinnakaki and in some ways in the sense that it 0:27:57.720 --> 0:28:02.600 immediately descends into the low ground, and you play in 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:06.040 the low ground for the first you know, five holes, 0:28:07.280 --> 0:28:11.160 and then on six you kind of start to hop 0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:14.919 scotch your way back up into the higher ground. But 0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:18.600 really there's these there's just these fingers that that jut down, 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:22.800 and so the routing is really about how do you 0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:29.080 intersect with these fingers in the most unique varied ways possible. So, 0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:33.520 like you know, sometimes we would the ridge itself is 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:36.320 wide enough to drape an entire golf hole over it, 0:28:37.000 --> 0:28:39.440 and so on some holes we can, you know, we 0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:41.880 can ride the ridge the entire way, and it's kind 0:28:41.880 --> 0:28:43.560 of like a little bit of a gentle hogs back 0:28:44.000 --> 0:28:46.360 type fairway, which is essentially what we what we're doing 0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:51.440 on the sixteenth hole. There's some where, you know, we 0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:54.400 just bench a green sort of into the side shoulder 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:56.960 of a ridge, kind of like prairie dune style, right, 0:28:57.360 --> 0:28:59.920 just bench it halfway up. We do that on the 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.760 third hole a number of other holes. Sometimes we can 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:06.760 play perpendicular to a finger, where we actually hit over 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:09.400 one finger into the into the next one, and so 0:29:09.800 --> 0:29:14.680 there's some blind elements out there as well. There's playing 0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:18.800 kind of diagonal from one finger to another, right, and 0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:22.360 we do that on the eleventh. The eleventh is where 0:29:22.400 --> 0:29:24.360 you most prominently hit over that big slip face, so 0:29:24.400 --> 0:29:27.040 you're sort of on one lower ridge and then you 0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:31.080 hit over this huge wetlands valley over the slip face 0:29:31.240 --> 0:29:33.280 on top of on top of that ridge. But it's 0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:35.239 kind of a diagonal shot where the more you the 0:29:35.240 --> 0:29:37.400 more you chew off, the better your angle is into 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:41.920 the green. Sometimes we play through the bottom of one 0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:44.240 of these gullies, in between the fingers of these really 0:29:44.240 --> 0:29:46.440 big gullies. So I would say you spend most of 0:29:46.480 --> 0:29:51.000 the time riding higher ground on the site, but then 0:29:51.000 --> 0:29:53.520 every now and again you dip way down and you 0:29:53.560 --> 0:29:55.640 can't see anything, and you're like where, you know, where 0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:57.640 did this come from? So we do that with seventeen, 0:29:57.680 --> 0:29:59.880 and then sometimes you can get out of those val 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:03.000 with an infinity green. So seventeen has like this really 0:30:03.000 --> 0:30:06.040 sharp dog leg where it rides the valley low and 0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:09.000 then it takes a hard right turn up to the 0:30:09.360 --> 0:30:10.720 up to the ridge line and we have a little 0:30:10.720 --> 0:30:14.200 infinity green up there with nothing but sky and beyond. 0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:19.040 So you know, it was a challenging It was a 0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:21.719 challenging routing. There was a bunch you know, there were 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:25.320 a bunch of iterations that I went through, and some 0:30:25.360 --> 0:30:28.760 of it does I think tests like the limits. You know, 0:30:28.920 --> 0:30:31.640 there's there's some serious side slope out there. There's there's 0:30:31.640 --> 0:30:35.640 some side slope out there that's probably you know, old 0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:37.320 town ish. You know, if you think of like this 0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:40.720 sixteenth tole at old Town, I mean that fairway's tipping it, 0:30:40.960 --> 0:30:43.920 I don't know, twelve fifteen percent, like we have some 0:30:43.960 --> 0:30:45.880 of those. We have some of those fairways out there 0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:49.120 that are really unpronounced side slopes, and so it'll it 0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:51.520 really pushes the limits there too. So we you know, 0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:53.920 tried to you know, tried to get a routing that 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:57.520 was that was walkable, that was playable, but also intersected 0:30:57.560 --> 0:30:59.640 with these ridges in unique ways. 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:03.240 Yeah, when you're dealing with a severe site, it seems 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:07.120 like the main puzzle for you to solve is how 0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:09.960 do I use this with variety? Because the danger is 0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:12.360 like when you have a severe site that there's just 0:31:12.480 --> 0:31:14.320 one thing that you can do with the golf holes 0:31:14.360 --> 0:31:17.040 because there's only one way for them to be functional. 0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:18.720 So it sounds like you tried to find a bunch 0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:22.080 of different ways to use the features, even if the 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:24.560 features were in places pretty severe. 0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:28.960 Yep. Absolutely, it was kind of interesting because that, you know, 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:32.560 at Broomsedge, I would say the routing came together pretty quick. Ultimately, 0:31:32.600 --> 0:31:34.960 what we ended up doing on Broomsedge was more or 0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:37.920 less a Napkins Gifts that I did early on, whereas 0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:40.880 this site, it was sort of I knew that it, 0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:44.840 you know, it had all the feels, but it was 0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:47.320 so severe in some spots that I wasn't sure that 0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:52.120 you could pull off eighteen holes without one or two 0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:54.480 holes that were just overly severe. And so there was 0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:58.000 a lot of iterations with the routing and walking it, 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:01.880 and as time went on, the site got more overgrown 0:32:02.080 --> 0:32:04.680 and more overgrown with you know, briers or whatever, so 0:32:04.880 --> 0:32:07.480 it became increasingly hard to walk and kind of feel 0:32:07.520 --> 0:32:11.320 with your feet. So it was just an iterative process 0:32:11.400 --> 0:32:13.760 of you know, tweaking things around and then even in 0:32:13.760 --> 0:32:17.080 the field. I mean, I don't know if you've seen 0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:19.280 the map I've changed the routing in the field. 0:32:19.600 --> 0:32:21.920 Oh did you I have? I mean there's a there's 0:32:21.920 --> 0:32:26.360 a routing map that's available on Candy Roots website that 0:32:26.400 --> 0:32:28.320 I that I have looked at. But but you made 0:32:28.360 --> 0:32:29.400 some alterations in there. 0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:32.000 Absolutely, yeah. I mean you you know when a site 0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:33.760 is kind of overgrown. I mean you can run all 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:36.840 the topo analysis and you know, measure all the elevations, 0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:38.920 but until you can see that ground with your eyes, 0:32:39.440 --> 0:32:41.240 you don't really know. And I think that's the beauty 0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:43.080 of design build is you got to you gotta be 0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:45.680 able to stand in that spot and do you feel 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:48.080 a golf shot on it? Do you feel that it's 0:32:48.440 --> 0:32:50.120 you know, do you feel that it's a great golf shot. 0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:52.240 And there was one particular portion where I think on 0:32:52.280 --> 0:32:55.320 the initial routing, I had the fourth hole as a 0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:57.440 as a par four that had to jump over the 0:32:57.440 --> 0:33:00.840 wetlands on the second shot, and I felt like it was. 0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:03.600 I felt like it was I felt like it was doable. 0:33:04.920 --> 0:33:06.640 But then when I actually, you know, when I when 0:33:06.640 --> 0:33:09.480 I stood on the fairway and I you know, you 0:33:09.480 --> 0:33:11.720 could start to feel how slopy that Pharaoh was. You 0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:14.440 realize that the drives were going to end up in 0:33:14.560 --> 0:33:18.040 all sorts of different spots, and so in that sort 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:22.560 of uncontrolled environment where you know you could potentially, uh, 0:33:22.920 --> 0:33:25.560 you know, based on the wind conditions that day, you 0:33:25.600 --> 0:33:28.800 could be seventy yards apart based on where you were 0:33:28.880 --> 0:33:32.240 yesterday in a different wind condition. There there were certain 0:33:32.760 --> 0:33:34.960 scenarios where I felt like the jump would just not 0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:39.160 be doable for some players. And so that was a 0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:41.920 quick just like you know, well, it wasn't quick. I 0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:44.160 felt it when we first cleared it. You know, I 0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:46.480 talked about it with Joe and he's like, just you know, 0:33:46.560 --> 0:33:48.800 sleep on it. We still got a shape one green, 0:33:48.840 --> 0:33:50.360 you know, let's just we don't have to make that 0:33:50.400 --> 0:33:53.000 decision now. And so but as I got closer and 0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:56.920 closer to time to shape, I pulled the trigger and said, 0:33:56.920 --> 0:33:58.560 you know what, this is gonna be a shorter part 0:33:58.600 --> 0:34:01.080 for and then we're gonna jump the wetlands with a 0:34:01.280 --> 0:34:03.920 with a par three and then the next hole we're 0:34:03.920 --> 0:34:06.480 going to change into a par five. So the entire 0:34:06.560 --> 0:34:10.520 routing changed right then and there. So I I never 0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:12.719 like to go in too overly committed to the plan, 0:34:12.800 --> 0:34:16.440 particularly when you're dealing with a site that is you know, 0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:21.480 very very jungly. You know, it's it's hard to see 0:34:21.520 --> 0:34:23.600 what you're it's hard to really get the feels out 0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:24.680 there until the site is cleared. 0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:27.040 So yeah, yeah, I did notice in looking through the 0:34:27.120 --> 0:34:29.640 routing map that there are some creek crossings, you know, 0:34:29.719 --> 0:34:32.839 some some some jumps over over the creek, which is 0:34:33.280 --> 0:34:35.120 you know, obviously one thing that you have to do 0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:38.560 it to keep those creeks intact, which you must, you know, 0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:40.879 you have to cross them from from time to time. 0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:42.520 But it but it sounds like one of the early 0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:46.400 round creek crossings has has now been re arranged a 0:34:46.480 --> 0:34:49.080 little bit. But yeah, obviously things like that happen all 0:34:49.120 --> 0:34:49.439 the time. 0:34:49.680 --> 0:34:52.400 Absolutely, I felt like, if we're gonna because part of 0:34:52.440 --> 0:34:55.000 the it's not just the creek itself, it's sort of 0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:59.520 the environmental regulatory environment of what buffer you need to 0:34:59.600 --> 0:35:01.879 keep off the creek, and so it depends on whether 0:35:01.920 --> 0:35:04.360 it's an intermittent stream or perennial stream. But there's certain 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:06.759 buffers that you have to creep, so it's not just 0:35:06.800 --> 0:35:09.800 a matter of simply hitting over an eight foot wide creek. 0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:11.600 You you might have to keep one hundred feet of 0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:13.719 vegetated buffer on each side of the creek. And so 0:35:13.760 --> 0:35:15.400 when you add it all up, it's like, oh, we 0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:17.920 got a seventy yard jump here because it's a perennial stream. 0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:22.480 So you're always factoring in those those buffers. And you know, 0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:24.759 I mean, look in a this is one of the 0:35:24.800 --> 0:35:27.600 areas that I think it's interesting to compare and contrast 0:35:27.680 --> 0:35:32.399 kind of the classical era versus versus now, and sort 0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:35.239 of the flexibilities that architects had back then that are 0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:38.719 you know, often not available now, having a creek side 0:35:38.760 --> 0:35:41.040 hole or being able to jump creeks. 0:35:40.719 --> 0:35:43.120 Or an ocean side hole, you know, or an ocean 0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:46.000 side cliffs. Could you could you build Pebble Beach with 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:48.919 all those you know, holes just teetering off the edge 0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:53.560 of the cliff. Probably not, no chance. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 0:35:54.640 --> 0:35:57.840 So you know, as you were getting into building the 0:35:57.920 --> 0:36:02.080 course and shaping the course, are there any particular influences 0:36:02.320 --> 0:36:04.719 that were top of mind as as you were going 0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:08.560 through that process. Any specific architects or courses that you 0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:11.279 took inspiration from or talked with your shapers about or 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:11.960 anything like that. 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:16.640 Sure, yeah, I mean you're you're always curating, but I 0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:21.960 would say there's there were certain inspirations that were relevant 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:24.200 to a particular element of the course. I wouldn't say 0:36:24.200 --> 0:36:28.040 that we you know, there was just yeah, but like 0:36:28.400 --> 0:36:33.440 so so a good example would be the greens. So 0:36:33.480 --> 0:36:39.240 the greens are actually very small, not even by modern standards. 0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:43.600 They're they're pretty small. And we didn't, like I didn't 0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:46.120 set out to do that in the in the plan. 0:36:46.239 --> 0:36:48.359 But as we you know, we're probably about a third 0:36:48.360 --> 0:36:50.239 of the way through the greens, and as I'm kind 0:36:50.239 --> 0:36:53.040 of like approving, Yeah, that feels good, then we get 0:36:53.040 --> 0:36:55.360 the you know, we get the measurement station out and 0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:57.919 we realize, wow, these greens are trending small and that's okay, 0:36:57.920 --> 0:37:02.000 it feels right. But you know, the vast majority are 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:04.520 under six thousand square feet. There's a lot that are 0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:06.840 under five thousand square feet. There's a good chunk that 0:37:06.840 --> 0:37:10.360 are under four thousand square feet, and you know, it 0:37:10.400 --> 0:37:12.520 just felt right, and I think part of that, maybe 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:16.520 that was a subconscious kind of thing. But I've always 0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:19.480 loved the smaller greens. Maybe I used to caddy at 0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:23.160 Brookline during during grad school. And you know, my dad 0:37:23.160 --> 0:37:26.719 grew up on a ross nine hole or in South Krige, 0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:29.560 Massachusetts called Kohassee, which he'd take me to when I 0:37:29.560 --> 0:37:32.640 was visiting my grandma. So I would always I always 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:35.040 had an affinity for smaller greens. I love the intimacy, 0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:37.319 I love the focus they create on an approach shot, 0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:41.040 I love the look. But you know, the one thing 0:37:41.040 --> 0:37:43.360 that I would sort of quibble with about small greens 0:37:43.400 --> 0:37:45.680 is often when you see, you know, really small greens, 0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:47.880 they're surrounded by thick rough. I think, you know, Brookline 0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:49.960 is a pretty good example of that. So you end 0:37:50.040 --> 0:37:52.120 up missing a lot of greens just by virtue of 0:37:52.120 --> 0:37:53.960 the fact they're so small, and so you end up 0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:56.319 doing kind of a lot of repetitive lob shots out 0:37:56.360 --> 0:37:59.800 of the rough, whether it's you know, Pebble or Brookline 0:37:59.880 --> 0:38:02.880 or or you know, any of the others. So I 0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:04.800 Candy Rude, it was kind of a you know, I 0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:07.279 live in Pineers, love Pineer's number two, so it was 0:38:07.320 --> 0:38:09.360 kind of like, what if we did like really small 0:38:10.200 --> 0:38:13.920 greens but surrounded by a lot of tight grass and 0:38:13.960 --> 0:38:15.520 a lot of kind of humps and hollows. So I 0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:17.920 think that's potentially a unique challenge where we have some 0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:20.960 really small green targets but they're surrounded by lots of 0:38:21.280 --> 0:38:25.399 tight grass and fall offs and humps and hollows. So 0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:27.399 that was kind of a curation of it. And then 0:38:27.800 --> 0:38:31.000 I would say in terms of the internal contours at 0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:33.560 brims Edge, we did a lot of convex stuff, you know, 0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:35.759 very kind of number two ish, But here I was 0:38:35.880 --> 0:38:39.520 I was much more interested in kind of the intersecting 0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:42.440 slopes idea, and William Flint did a lot of this. 0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:45.319 I mean, obviously we saw this at at Shinnacok, where 0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:48.040 a lot of the high points kind of are around 0:38:48.080 --> 0:38:50.279 the edges of the greens and the slopes kind of 0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:53.560 come in and they collide into each other inside the 0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:57.040 green complex. And so I wanted to do more of that. 0:38:57.160 --> 0:38:59.680 So there were definitely a lot of conversations with me 0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:02.200 and Joe about how do we do these intersecting slopes 0:39:02.239 --> 0:39:06.480 and not not doing you know, the purely convex stuff 0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:09.319 that we were doing at Broomsedge. And I think the 0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:12.959 greens have ended up really confounding and really really good. 0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:16.280 I think again that I think we really didn't inhale 0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:19.800 the green complexes. And in addition to that, because the 0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:22.440 whole course is benched into a side slope, it is 0:39:22.520 --> 0:39:24.680 really hard to tell what's uphill and what's downhill on 0:39:24.760 --> 0:39:27.200 these on these greens, because like you know, if you're 0:39:27.200 --> 0:39:29.759 at like a three percent descending slope the whole way 0:39:29.800 --> 0:39:32.520 across the property, if you just flick up a little 0:39:32.520 --> 0:39:36.720 bit of dirt on a green, it actually looks like, Okay, 0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:40.120 well I'm downhill for the first a third of this putt, 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:41.879 but then the last two thirds I'm actually I got 0:39:41.920 --> 0:39:44.280 some support in this green. I'm actually going back uphill. 0:39:45.280 --> 0:39:47.520 But really it's a visual trick that that all we 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:49.719 did was slow the descent down. It's just like a 0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:53.120 wrinkle in the broader descent. And so I think that 0:39:53.600 --> 0:39:55.520 these greens are going to be I mean, I can't 0:39:55.600 --> 0:39:57.720 you know, I've been doing this for seven years. Joe's 0:39:57.840 --> 0:39:59.880 my design partner, Joe Hancock has been doing this for 0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:02.200 thirty years, and we stand on some of these green 0:40:02.239 --> 0:40:03.719 and we have no idea if the balls going uphill 0:40:03.760 --> 0:40:05.239 or down. You know, we don't know until we get 0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:08.520 the laser out, which is really cool. Sometimes the best 0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:10.719 things that when you shape until you're confused and then 0:40:10.719 --> 0:40:13.680 walk away you got a great green. But I think 0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:17.399 that that's going to be really cool. Another area where 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:22.120 I pulled a lot of inspiration was Shinnecock and its 0:40:22.160 --> 0:40:27.480 fairway movements. One of the things I didn't get to 0:40:27.520 --> 0:40:31.680 do at Broomsedge was kind of the diagonal sweeping serpentine 0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:35.840 grassing lines. You know, Broomsedge was on a really tight property, 0:40:35.880 --> 0:40:37.440 so a lot of holes just had to run in 0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:40.560 parallel with each other. There's more land at Candy Roos, 0:40:40.600 --> 0:40:43.400 so we can do kind of more sweeping dog legs 0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:46.600 and swinging grassing lines, which just by definition, it eats 0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:49.120 up more acreage, right, Moving holes in that way just 0:40:49.160 --> 0:40:50.680 eats up more land that we didn't have at Broom. 0:40:50.800 --> 0:40:54.880 Yeah, the effective corridors wide when you have a diagonal fairway. 0:40:54.920 --> 0:40:58.680 That's something about Shinnecock is like, yep, tremendously wide hole corridors, 0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:02.839 but the fairway is just towards sort of lanting down, yeah, down, yep. 0:41:03.040 --> 0:41:06.440 And I've always I've always felt like, you know, we 0:41:06.480 --> 0:41:08.960 talk about the roll back, and you know, I mean, 0:41:09.400 --> 0:41:13.400 even if the governing bodies get it under control, I 0:41:13.680 --> 0:41:16.799 don't see the ball rolling back that much. I mean, 0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:19.520 I think we've reached a stage where players are probably 0:41:19.520 --> 0:41:22.319 going to be pretty darn long forever more, even if 0:41:22.320 --> 0:41:24.920 we can stop the growth. And you know, I'm not 0:41:24.920 --> 0:41:27.360 going to build a nine thousand yard golf course, but 0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:30.319 to me, and I think the Open last week kind 0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:33.680 of maybe suggested this that that maybe diagonals and kind 0:41:33.719 --> 0:41:37.000 of grassing lines are how you maybe keep distance under control. 0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:40.560 I mean, guys couldn't. They couldn't overpower Shinnecock. They laid them. 0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:43.400 They throttled themselves back all the time. I mean nobody 0:41:43.600 --> 0:41:45.880 in the lead up to Shinnacock, I mean nobody was 0:41:45.920 --> 0:41:48.960 talking bomb and gouge prior to the tournament. Some of 0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:51.480 the I mean some of the longest approach shots I've 0:41:51.520 --> 0:41:54.440 seen in a long time happened this past week at 0:41:54.520 --> 0:41:57.960 the Open because guys were throttling back voluntarily. I mean, 0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:00.839 who was it in on Sunday who had like one 0:42:00.880 --> 0:42:02.920 eighty into the tenth hole. It's only a four hundred 0:42:02.960 --> 0:42:06.640 yard hole. They voluntarily decided to have one eighty into 0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:08.680 that green, and then I was thinking too, I don't know, 0:42:08.719 --> 0:42:10.680 I haven't thought this totally through, but I was thinking. 0:42:10.840 --> 0:42:14.359 I was contrasting it with with Ironomy, where I think 0:42:14.440 --> 0:42:17.560 more holes kind of run straight. You know, there's an 0:42:17.560 --> 0:42:19.879 occasional bunker pinch here and there, but more or less 0:42:19.920 --> 0:42:22.160 a lot of the holes that Ironomic run straight. 0:42:22.600 --> 0:42:24.960 They're more packed in because you know, it is a 0:42:25.000 --> 0:42:27.920 smaller it's a property, you know exactly. 0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:31.120 And I mean, you know, you remember all the talk 0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:34.040 leading up to Ironmic about the bomb and gouge, right, 0:42:34.040 --> 0:42:35.759 and that I think that ended up probably not being 0:42:35.760 --> 0:42:39.080 the right the right play as as uh, you know, 0:42:39.200 --> 0:42:42.160 Aaron Raich showed. But but I think a lot of 0:42:42.160 --> 0:42:44.480 players at Aronmic saw bomb and gouge is at least 0:42:44.520 --> 0:42:47.279 a viable strategy going into the tournament, whereas nobody at 0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:50.200 Shinnikok thought that was viable. And I think it is 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:53.040 this diagonal thing, right, I think when players see a 0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:58.480 hole where really only the line matters, they think bomb 0:42:58.560 --> 0:43:00.400 and gouge. You know, all I can hit it two 0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:01.719 fifty on this line, or I could hit it three 0:43:01.800 --> 0:43:05.000 fifty on this line bonds away. But at Shinnacock as 0:43:05.000 --> 0:43:07.680 we know, it's the dynamic changes. It's well, I can 0:43:07.719 --> 0:43:10.120 hit it two fifty on this line, I can hit 0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:12.680 it two seventy five on this line. I can hit 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:14.799 it three hundred on this line. But if I want 0:43:14.800 --> 0:43:18.200 to carry it over three hundred, well, now that the 0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:21.360 grassing line just you know, twist back the other direction. 0:43:21.960 --> 0:43:24.359 So now I got to carry three hundred yards on 0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:25.920 this line, which is way different than the line I 0:43:25.920 --> 0:43:27.920 would have taken at two seventy five. So then you 0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:29.960 factor in the wind and the balance. It's you know, 0:43:30.000 --> 0:43:32.080 it's why Shinnecock is one of the great championship tests 0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:35.680 in the world. I because of the severity of the 0:43:35.840 --> 0:43:37.600 of the site at Candy Rude, I knew that the 0:43:37.600 --> 0:43:41.480 the golf course wasn't going to be brutally or overly long, 0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:45.400 so length wasn't going to be its primary thing. But 0:43:45.520 --> 0:43:47.560 given the ridges and all that stuff. I really took 0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:50.680 a lot of influence in the grassing lines from Shinnecock 0:43:50.760 --> 0:43:53.200 and just tried to really emphasize this kind of off 0:43:53.320 --> 0:43:56.799 balance nature and coupled with the side slopes, I think 0:43:56.800 --> 0:44:00.359 it's really cool. And then that led to fewer bunkers. Well, 0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:04.200 so there's a lot less bunkers at Candy Root than 0:44:05.160 --> 0:44:08.879 than Broomsedge. You know, again like parallel holes. I think 0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:14.680 we relied more at Broomsedge on on bunkering to you know, 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:17.280 kind of induce strategy and make the holes feel different, 0:44:17.280 --> 0:44:21.120 whereas at at Candy Root, the land contours and the 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:23.239 native grasses and the grassing lines are just kind of 0:44:23.239 --> 0:44:24.520 doing all the work. So I think we only have 0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:28.440 maybe fifty five or sixty bunkers at at Candy Root, 0:44:28.480 --> 0:44:32.719 which is which is pretty low. And so yeah, those 0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:35.400 were those were kind of the influences. But I mean 0:44:35.440 --> 0:44:37.400 we'rel Dornick is always an influence there. We got a 0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:39.680 couple of greens that are just kind of perched up plateaus. 0:44:40.520 --> 0:44:43.200 Prairie Dunes was was a big influence out there. Again. 0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:45.600 You know, there's a number of greens that are benched 0:44:45.600 --> 0:44:47.960 into side slopes and you know, nobody did that better 0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:52.160 the Maxwell at Prairie Dunes. So a lot of I 0:44:52.200 --> 0:44:54.880 think you're just curating. You know, you're trying to produce 0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:58.239 an original product, and you're but you're constantly thinking about 0:44:58.280 --> 0:44:59.959 all the great things that you've seen and just cure. 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:02.680 I really like the way Maxwell did this there. I 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:04.560 really love what Flynn did here. I really loved them 0:45:04.640 --> 0:45:06.880 Kenzie did there. And hopefully you put it all in 0:45:06.920 --> 0:45:09.879 the melting pot and you it comes up with something cool. 0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:14.600 So one factor you haven't mentioned yet, or one term 0:45:14.640 --> 0:45:17.879 you haven't used yet, is is the uh the big 0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:22.239 M minimalism. Candy Roots website does use this term. Now, 0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:24.319 it's it's it's always unclear to me to you know, 0:45:24.360 --> 0:45:26.640 how much of a role an architect has and in 0:45:26.680 --> 0:45:30.000 some of the branding language that that that is presented 0:45:30.080 --> 0:45:32.799 for for these courses. But but right now on Candy 0:45:32.880 --> 0:45:35.359 Roids website it says that the course is defined by 0:45:35.760 --> 0:45:39.120 quote unquote extreme minimalism. 0:45:39.520 --> 0:45:39.759 Yep. 0:45:39.840 --> 0:45:41.200 So I was wondering if that's a if that's a 0:45:41.280 --> 0:45:44.640 term that you actually use and and what your relationship 0:45:44.680 --> 0:45:47.879 with minimalism is and what this course is relationship. 0:45:47.320 --> 0:45:50.160 With it is. Yeah, I think it's an accurate description. 0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:55.920 We the way that I think the way to describe 0:45:55.920 --> 0:45:59.480 it would be that we never put dirt in a 0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:03.799 truck and moved it anywhere. All the shaping we did well. 0:46:03.800 --> 0:46:06.400 First of all, we didn't shape any fairways. We shaped 0:46:06.400 --> 0:46:08.560 green pad or we shaped tea pads just to get 0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:11.560 them flat, flat enough, So there was a little bit 0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:14.320 of localized shaping around the tees, and then we shaped 0:46:14.320 --> 0:46:16.480 the greens, but we didn't you know, we didn't really 0:46:16.520 --> 0:46:19.759 bring in any dirt to fill a green. There were 0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:22.640 really not a lot of significant cuts. Maybe maybe the 0:46:22.680 --> 0:46:24.960 twelfth green could be the one where we probably did 0:46:25.000 --> 0:46:27.879 the most dozer pushing, but again, there was no kind 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:32.759 of airlift movement going on here. There was no earthwork requirements. 0:46:32.760 --> 0:46:35.080 So that that's kind of how I feel, I mean, 0:46:35.800 --> 0:46:39.920 you know, that's kind of how I view extreme minimalism, 0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:44.000 as you do the absolute minimum to get the golf 0:46:44.000 --> 0:46:46.839 course to work, and we didn't do anything beyond that. 0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:49.200 We didn't really do I mean, we didn't do anything 0:46:49.239 --> 0:46:49.880 in the natives. 0:46:49.880 --> 0:46:53.120 The natives are just kind of there, so no shaping 0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:55.760 in the fairways, are very little shaping in the fairways. 0:46:56.719 --> 0:46:59.879 I'm trying to think one, no shaping. Three I don't 0:46:59.880 --> 0:47:01.200 think we shaped a fairway now. 0:47:01.760 --> 0:47:04.600 Wow. So I mean, just to be clear for listeners, 0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:09.040 this is really unusual. Now, Yeah, that the process now is, 0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:12.800 you know, the standard process is to bring in a 0:47:13.360 --> 0:47:16.839 lot of fill and and kind of shape the entire 0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:19.680 whole corridor. But but this is not no, and it's 0:47:19.920 --> 0:47:22.520 this is not what architects did in the nineteen twenties. Obviously, 0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:24.640 right old courses. You know, one of the things that 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:28.960 makes an old course differentiated from a modern course is 0:47:29.000 --> 0:47:31.400 often that you notice that in the old courses that 0:47:31.440 --> 0:47:35.640 the fairways are quite clearly natural. But but you didn't, 0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:37.440 you didn't, you didn't do the fairway shaping. 0:47:37.560 --> 0:47:39.919 No, I'm part of it is. I mean, we only 0:47:39.960 --> 0:47:42.560 have one shaper. It's Joe Hancock. You know. I'll hop 0:47:42.560 --> 0:47:44.759 in a machine occasionally when I have time, but we 0:47:44.800 --> 0:47:46.640 don't have an army of shapers out there. I mean, 0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:50.719 Joe has shaped pretty much everything out there, and his 0:47:50.800 --> 0:47:53.080 dozer occasionally all up into an excavator and do a 0:47:53.640 --> 0:47:56.279 bunker here there or whatever. But like we don't have 0:47:56.800 --> 0:47:58.600 there's not enough shaping work to do out there. Joe 0:47:58.640 --> 0:47:59.560 made Joe made a. 0:47:59.520 --> 0:48:02.680 Fund was very experienced too, by the way, for folks 0:48:02.719 --> 0:48:05.399 who don't know the name, he's He's been everywhere, worked 0:48:05.400 --> 0:48:07.319 for everyone, and done a lot of work. 0:48:07.440 --> 0:48:09.600 Yeah, he made a funny joke early on when we 0:48:09.640 --> 0:48:12.040 have first cleared eighteen fairway and all these little humps 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:13.880 and bumps in there and it looks so cool, and 0:48:13.960 --> 0:48:15.799 he said, man, this would be a nightmare job for 0:48:15.840 --> 0:48:17.839 a young shaper. I'm like, what do you mean And 0:48:17.880 --> 0:48:19.719 he's like, well, I couldn't show how good I am 0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:21.879 because there's nothing, there's nothing to do. 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:25.399 So yeah, if you're trying to show off, that's uh, 0:48:25.440 --> 0:48:28.080 it's not the that's I mean, that's kind of an 0:48:28.120 --> 0:48:31.759 issue that I that I've heard certain experienced architects talk 0:48:31.760 --> 0:48:34.560 about behind closed doors, is you know, my shapers want 0:48:34.560 --> 0:48:37.000 to understandably make a make a name for themselves, but 0:48:37.080 --> 0:48:39.000 I just want them to build my golf course. And 0:48:39.040 --> 0:48:41.160 there's sometimes that tension there. Yeah. 0:48:41.200 --> 0:48:45.359 Absolutely. Now Joe is Joe's my I mean he Joe 0:48:45.400 --> 0:48:47.880 is mister restraint. You know, Joe is always challenging me 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:49.840 in terms of do we do you need that bunker 0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:53.560 there is that superfluous or we don't need to touch that, 0:48:53.640 --> 0:48:55.800 you know, Joe. Joe has had such a big influence 0:48:55.840 --> 0:48:58.640 on me. And one of the things that Joe said 0:48:58.640 --> 0:49:02.640 that really struck me is, you know, the golfer, Mike, 0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:06.840 the golfer is variable enough even day to day, the 0:49:06.880 --> 0:49:10.439 same person is variable enough you don't need to junk 0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:13.360 it up with stuff. You don't need to have excessive 0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:16.239 micro contouring in front of greens. You don't need to 0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:19.040 do all that because the golfer is variable enough. And 0:49:19.080 --> 0:49:21.040 that that always sticks in my head. And Joe said 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:23.879 that to me during during Broomsedge. So it's been great. 0:49:23.920 --> 0:49:25.359 You know, it's great having Joe around. But that's kind 0:49:25.360 --> 0:49:28.200 of the mindset that we had at this Now. You know, 0:49:28.239 --> 0:49:31.520 there are I'll give you two examples of where we 0:49:31.719 --> 0:49:35.680 actively resisted the desire to, you know, where maybe others 0:49:35.719 --> 0:49:39.000 would have done an earth move. The first one is 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:41.360 is six Fairway, which is one of those ten or 0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:47.400 twelve percenter fairways. It's humming, it's a steep side slope 0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:50.120 and you know, I mean that would be such a 0:49:50.120 --> 0:49:52.839 big earth move to try to level that thing out. 0:49:52.840 --> 0:49:55.839 And we've been having this conversation to this day about 0:49:55.960 --> 0:49:58.279 you know, well, this is you know, it's obviously a 0:49:58.280 --> 0:50:00.400 wide fairway to accommodate. I think we're gon push it 0:50:00.400 --> 0:50:03.279 to you know, something like seventy yards wide. But there's 0:50:03.280 --> 0:50:07.760 also agronomic you know, questions here too. I think Brian 0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:11.719 Schneider did a bit of thing about this, where you 0:50:11.760 --> 0:50:15.480 know that if you cut the fairways too low, then 0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:18.000 balls don't hang up on side slopes, and that then 0:50:18.080 --> 0:50:20.000 you kind of you know, you don't have the challenge 0:50:20.000 --> 0:50:21.600 of a ball way below your feet or way above 0:50:21.600 --> 0:50:25.120 your feet, which is an important test. So I think 0:50:25.120 --> 0:50:27.120 part of it is an agronomic thing. If we need 0:50:27.160 --> 0:50:29.360 to make sure that the golf course plays firm, but 0:50:29.680 --> 0:50:31.680 you know, the fairways because of the side slope on 0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:35.560 this property, the fairways can't be lightning fast, and so 0:50:35.680 --> 0:50:37.720 that's that's an area where people are going to actually 0:50:37.760 --> 0:50:40.280 have to shape a shot into a into a fairway 0:50:40.520 --> 0:50:42.800 to be able to hold the ball. It's it's similar 0:50:42.840 --> 0:50:45.920 to you know sixteen at Old Town or one of 0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:48.320 one of those where you are you are fighting the 0:50:48.400 --> 0:50:52.439 landform there. But I think you know there was there's 0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:55.640 the temptation to get the big d eight dozers out 0:50:55.719 --> 0:50:58.240 and turn that thing from a ten percent slope into 0:50:58.280 --> 0:51:01.680 a six or seven percent slope, but we resisted. We'll 0:51:01.680 --> 0:51:04.439 see how it goes. Another example would be the seventh Pole, 0:51:04.440 --> 0:51:07.799 which is a par five long long par five. It 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:09.919 kind of moves like waves in the ocean, so there's 0:51:09.960 --> 0:51:11.719 always a ridge in front of you that's kind of 0:51:11.760 --> 0:51:15.480 blocking your your visibility, and so your landing area off 0:51:15.520 --> 0:51:17.360 the tee shot, you land on top of one of 0:51:17.360 --> 0:51:20.640 these ridges, and then between you and the green is 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:22.960 another one of these waves in the ocean where it 0:51:23.080 --> 0:51:27.040 totally blocks your your view of the green. And actually 0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:30.160 in the in the plan, I had us knocking down 0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:34.120 that knocking down that ridge just to get some visibility 0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:37.239 of the green. And then we got out there and 0:51:37.239 --> 0:51:39.399 it was just such a beautiful land form and you're thinking, Jesus, 0:51:39.400 --> 0:51:40.719 we knocked this thing down. How are we going to 0:51:40.760 --> 0:51:42.319 tie it in. How are we gonna make it look natural? 0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:44.719 We're gonna have to rearrange everything, We're gonna blow through 0:51:44.719 --> 0:51:47.120 a bunch of native and two weeks later we're gonna 0:51:47.120 --> 0:51:49.040 spend a lot of money, and well, we really have 0:51:49.120 --> 0:51:51.279 a cooler hole because of it. And so what we 0:51:51.360 --> 0:51:53.719 ended up doing was kind of a spectacle bunker arrangement 0:51:53.800 --> 0:51:57.080 into that hillside where you know, very much like the 0:51:57.080 --> 0:51:59.600 spectacles at Carnoustie. You know, it's a par five where 0:52:00.040 --> 0:52:01.640 you know, maybe we'll get a ten foot flag and 0:52:01.680 --> 0:52:03.840 you can kind of see it dangling in between the spectacles, 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:05.680 but kind of your line is right in between the spectacles, 0:52:05.719 --> 0:52:09.280 and I think we have a much cooler hole because 0:52:09.280 --> 0:52:11.680 we didn't move any earth, and we thought more creatively, 0:52:11.719 --> 0:52:16.680 and we didn't always prioritize visibility. I think if visibility is, 0:52:17.000 --> 0:52:20.440 you know, always the priority, you're if you have any 0:52:20.480 --> 0:52:22.880 sort of topographical movement, you're always going to be cutting 0:52:22.880 --> 0:52:25.560 something to achieve it. But seven was a good example 0:52:25.560 --> 0:52:27.359 where we just sort of embraced the blindness and made 0:52:27.400 --> 0:52:29.920 it a strategic feature of the whole. And you know, 0:52:30.160 --> 0:52:32.960 use some use some you know bunkering to you know, 0:52:33.080 --> 0:52:34.040 show people where to go. 0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:44.520 This episode of Designing Golf is brought to you by 0:52:44.600 --> 0:52:50.000 Perfect Practice. The Perfect Practice putting matt and Perfect Practices 0:52:50.239 --> 0:52:53.400 chip shot are two products that I use all the time. 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:56.799 The putting matt is indoors and set up. The chip 0:52:56.840 --> 0:52:59.759 shot is out in my backyard and both of these 0:52:59.800 --> 0:53:02.920 saying have really helped me with my short game. So 0:53:03.320 --> 0:53:06.400 the putting mat is is just a high quality mat 0:53:06.719 --> 0:53:10.440 that provides a realistic putting experience and that's what I'm 0:53:10.480 --> 0:53:13.760 looking for right It's made out of this unique crystal 0:53:13.840 --> 0:53:18.520 velvet material that ensures a smooth ball movement. 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But 0:53:53.280 --> 0:53:56.799 if you shop at perfect Practice dot com and use 0:53:56.840 --> 0:54:01.760 the promo code design d S I G N Design 0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:05.279 for twenty percent off, that would be a great way 0:54:05.360 --> 0:54:09.799 to support the podcast and also get yourself some really 0:54:09.840 --> 0:54:14.680 good practice materials for home. So Perfect Practice dot Com 0:54:14.960 --> 0:54:26.360 Code Design check it out. So so far, you've talked 0:54:26.360 --> 0:54:30.040 about this project in a very site specific and project 0:54:30.200 --> 0:54:34.120 specific way, your your decisions being dictated by the land 0:54:34.160 --> 0:54:40.000 itself and by the nature of this specific development. But 0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:43.759 I'm gonna try to put some context on this and 0:54:44.040 --> 0:54:46.640 maybe locate this in history, and we'll see if you 0:54:46.680 --> 0:54:50.960 take the bit or not. You know, there are those 0:54:50.960 --> 0:54:56.160 who suggest right now that this approach you're describing, if 0:54:56.200 --> 0:54:59.560 you want to call it minimalist or naturalist or non 0:54:59.600 --> 0:55:02.880 interventist or whatever you want to call it. That this this, 0:55:03.239 --> 0:55:06.120 There are those who say that this approach has has 0:55:06.200 --> 0:55:08.880 really dominated the past thirty years of golf course design, 0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:11.719 you know, starting with Bill Kohrer and Tom Doak in 0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:16.399 the nineties popularizing it, and and so the argument then runs, well, 0:55:16.440 --> 0:55:18.480 the obvious next step if we want to if we 0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:22.239 want to keep the art form moving forward, is to 0:55:22.280 --> 0:55:26.799 return to maximalism. You know, whether that means incorporating influences 0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:30.240 from from Tom Fazio and Mike Strantz or whoever else, 0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:34.280 or taking inspiration from from some of the bold shaping 0:55:34.320 --> 0:55:36.760 that we saw in the golden age of golf course design, 0:55:37.239 --> 0:55:41.360 like from Seth Rayner, Walter Travis or Langford Moreau. It 0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:45.240 seems like you feel that there's not really a need 0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:49.960 to move beyond minimalism. Do you feel that way? Do 0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:52.719 you feel that there's there's a need to kind of 0:55:52.760 --> 0:55:57.080 provide a counterpoint to the trends of the last thirty years, 0:55:57.239 --> 0:55:59.040 or you know, how do you think all that through? 0:55:59.719 --> 0:56:02.080 Sure? Well, I mean I think so much of it 0:56:02.120 --> 0:56:06.279 is site specific. I mean I think that on a 0:56:06.360 --> 0:56:09.279 site like Candy Route, I really do think it is 0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:14.719 it is so unique and it's just god given potential 0:56:15.360 --> 0:56:18.640 that it would be a tremendous mistake to try to 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:23.320 do anything remotely uh deviant from from a minimalist approach 0:56:23.400 --> 0:56:27.400 on a site that good. Now, I do understand that 0:56:27.480 --> 0:56:30.000 not every architect is you know, has a has a 0:56:30.040 --> 0:56:32.640 great site to work with, and sometimes you do need 0:56:32.680 --> 0:56:37.120 to kind of manufacture some some intrigue in there. And 0:56:37.160 --> 0:56:40.560 I'm okay with that. I'm very much a more of 0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:43.879 the merrier kind of kind of person where I think 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:48.399 there's room in our art form for all types, all 0:56:48.400 --> 0:56:50.280 walks of life, you know, and I think that's cool. 0:56:50.320 --> 0:56:53.480 I think it's pretty cool to see some of the 0:56:53.600 --> 0:56:56.040 unique shapes that at Old Barnwell. I think that, you know, 0:56:56.080 --> 0:56:59.959 I just I there's enough, there's enough there to try 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:04.000 to experiment with it. But where I get very sort 0:57:04.000 --> 0:57:08.200 of dogmatic about minimalism is when you really truly have 0:57:08.320 --> 0:57:11.400 a unique site, leave it alone, you know, don't don't 0:57:11.440 --> 0:57:13.279 have the hubrists to come in and think you're going 0:57:13.320 --> 0:57:17.200 to do any better than what mother nature did. And 0:57:17.280 --> 0:57:19.440 so that's kind of where I'm at. But you know, 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:21.360 not all sites are not all sites are like that. 0:57:21.400 --> 0:57:23.880 Some sites need a little bit of a little bit 0:57:23.920 --> 0:57:27.600 of intrigue here and there. But in terms of, you know, stylistically, 0:57:27.800 --> 0:57:32.840 I think there's room in this industry for things that 0:57:32.880 --> 0:57:37.320 are obviously man made. It's you know, and I think 0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:39.240 everybody's got to kind of play their strong suits. I 0:57:39.240 --> 0:57:41.920 don't know that I'd be very good at that, you know, 0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:45.400 but but I think there there are architects that are 0:57:45.440 --> 0:57:47.520 that can that can pull that off really well. And 0:57:47.560 --> 0:57:51.120 there's you know, I think for golf architecture, I think 0:57:51.120 --> 0:57:52.400 it's important for us to have a kind of a 0:57:52.400 --> 0:57:55.240 big tent in mind and and welcome all those sorts 0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:57.840 of approaches, because isn't that the fun part, right for 0:57:57.960 --> 0:57:59.480 us to get on the podcast and talk about all 0:57:59.480 --> 0:58:02.080 these different roaches and talk about the different styles. I 0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:05.360 mean that that's the fun part to me. So, but 0:58:05.440 --> 0:58:08.080 certainly on on a site like Broomsedge and a site 0:58:08.120 --> 0:58:12.520 like Candy Route, yeah, don't mess with it. It's pretty it's 0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:14.680 pretty unique as it is. I think you can rely 0:58:14.760 --> 0:58:17.480 a lot on mother Nature to give you a unique fingerprint. 0:58:17.960 --> 0:58:22.320 A very reasonable response. But but that is taking the bait. 0:58:22.640 --> 0:58:25.760 Of course, I'm not going to take the well, especially 0:58:25.840 --> 0:58:27.640 since I said is he going to take the bait 0:58:27.760 --> 0:58:29.840 or not? And right, I should have Yeah, if I 0:58:29.880 --> 0:58:31.800 were really trying to get you, I should have phrased 0:58:31.840 --> 0:58:32.479 the question different. 0:58:32.520 --> 0:58:33.800 You should have lulled me into it. 0:58:33.880 --> 0:58:36.640 Yeah, But I wonder, I mean, yeah, okay, you know 0:58:36.720 --> 0:58:40.040 this is this is a widely accepted answer right now. 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:42.680 On great sites, we can take a minimalist approach. On 0:58:43.280 --> 0:58:46.760 less good sites, then maybe we need to do something different. Yeah, 0:58:47.240 --> 0:58:49.840 I mean even on great sites, though, do you think 0:58:49.920 --> 0:58:54.880 that there's ever a danger of falling into the orthodoxies 0:58:55.080 --> 0:58:58.560 of of what architects have done for for the past 0:58:58.600 --> 0:59:01.240 thirty years on those types of sites. Do you ever 0:59:01.680 --> 0:59:03.400 feel like that's that's gonna get old? 0:59:05.440 --> 0:59:09.160 No, I I think that's timeless. I really do think 0:59:09.160 --> 0:59:12.479 that that is. There's some stuff that's just timeless and 0:59:13.920 --> 0:59:19.600 a natural a natural site that is, you know, inherently 0:59:19.640 --> 0:59:23.080 gifted for golf and simply doing as little as possible. 0:59:23.160 --> 0:59:26.200 That's just that's just not gonna get old. It's just 0:59:26.280 --> 0:59:30.520 not and it hasn't gotten old yet, and I don't 0:59:30.560 --> 0:59:33.920 think that it I don't think that it will. But again, 0:59:34.000 --> 0:59:37.200 I think that the challenge there's is finding sites that 0:59:37.440 --> 0:59:41.840 that are that are truly unique and really, you know, 0:59:42.520 --> 0:59:44.120 I think if if a lot of work is done 0:59:44.120 --> 0:59:46.560 on the site selection process, then I think that saves 0:59:46.600 --> 0:59:48.480 a lot of a lot of effort on the construction 0:59:48.560 --> 0:59:51.520 process in terms of the minimalist effort and making sure 0:59:51.520 --> 0:59:55.880 you're not repeating. Because yeah, So that that's kind of 0:59:55.880 --> 0:59:58.520 where I follow, is that there's some stuff that's that's timeless. 0:59:58.600 --> 1:00:01.840 It's it's just not going to go away. And so 1:00:01.880 --> 1:00:03.800 I have a lot of faith in mother nature to 1:00:03.840 --> 1:00:06.280 keep producing great golf courses. 1:00:06.720 --> 1:00:07.439 For what it's worth. 1:00:07.440 --> 1:00:12.560 I agree with you, thanks, So, yeah, some stuff doesn't 1:00:12.640 --> 1:00:14.560 Some great stuff just doesn't go out of style. 1:00:14.840 --> 1:00:17.600 Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel, no, Yeah, 1:00:17.640 --> 1:00:21.000 And I think that as long as you're finding unique sights, 1:00:21.400 --> 1:00:24.040 that that itself is a source of freshness and. 1:00:24.000 --> 1:00:28.200 Renewal exactly exactly. Yep. The Beatles aren't going out of style, 1:00:28.240 --> 1:00:30.200 the stones aren't going out of style. You know, like 1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:34.720 it's just stuff, Just great stuff just stays stays true. 1:00:34.840 --> 1:00:40.920 Yeah, So I want to shift to talking more about 1:00:41.040 --> 1:00:45.200 like destination golf as an idea here as a model 1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:49.800 for golf development. You know, I first heard about candy 1:00:49.880 --> 1:00:54.720 root in I think it was mid twenty five ish, 1:00:55.360 --> 1:00:58.640 and this was before it was called Candy Route. Yeah, 1:00:58.760 --> 1:01:03.800 the pitch at that point, Yeah, there's been a naming. Uh. 1:01:03.880 --> 1:01:06.280 I mean, you know, this is this is always what happens, 1:01:06.320 --> 1:01:10.160 and I think, you know, side note here, people shouldn't 1:01:10.200 --> 1:01:13.439 be punished for being open about the projects that they're 1:01:13.480 --> 1:01:16.760 working on, you know, if you come in and say, oh, 1:01:16.880 --> 1:01:19.760 they they're really indecisive or by their ideas. Well, this 1:01:19.840 --> 1:01:22.320 is always what happens. But some people are just willing 1:01:22.320 --> 1:01:24.600 to talk about the projects early on, which I like 1:01:24.680 --> 1:01:27.920 and appreciate and I think the public should too. But 1:01:28.160 --> 1:01:30.160 you know, obviously, yeah, I went through a couple of 1:01:30.160 --> 1:01:34.680 different names. The pitch at at this early point was 1:01:35.200 --> 1:01:38.160 a public golf course, right, and in fact the ownership 1:01:38.200 --> 1:01:42.240 group wrote on social media that that the idea was 1:01:42.280 --> 1:01:46.480 to provide a public golf course for the Charlotte Metro 1:01:47.440 --> 1:01:49.640 and and to and to kind of give something that's 1:01:49.760 --> 1:01:52.840 different than you know, where we've seen a lot of 1:01:52.880 --> 1:01:55.120 action in golf development, which is in the in the 1:01:55.160 --> 1:01:58.360 private and resort space. Of course, the vision for Candy 1:01:58.440 --> 1:02:01.720 Root has changed sense then, in fact, it has become 1:02:02.440 --> 1:02:07.720 it has turned more to this destination resort model. From 1:02:07.760 --> 1:02:10.160 your perspective as the architect and but also as the 1:02:10.200 --> 1:02:12.760 person who found the piece of land in the first place, 1:02:13.240 --> 1:02:14.720 How did that evolution happen? 1:02:15.760 --> 1:02:17.280 Yeah, I think it was you know, a lot of 1:02:17.280 --> 1:02:20.480 this was was priorities that that Aaron brought to the 1:02:20.560 --> 1:02:22.800 table when he kind of took over the you know, 1:02:23.000 --> 1:02:26.720 the business itself. But but I still think there's a 1:02:26.840 --> 1:02:29.560 there's and certainly in the in the business model, there's 1:02:29.600 --> 1:02:35.560 there's still a very strong place for that Charlotte market 1:02:35.560 --> 1:02:37.840 there too. So it's not a it's not an either or. 1:02:37.920 --> 1:02:40.120 I mean, yes, there's definitely a stay and play component 1:02:40.200 --> 1:02:44.439 for nationally you know based individuals, but there's still every 1:02:44.480 --> 1:02:47.840 appetite to you know, be able to come in from 1:02:47.920 --> 1:02:51.320 from Charlotte and you know, play thirty six and head back. 1:02:51.480 --> 1:02:53.959 So I think it's a it's a yes and sort 1:02:53.960 --> 1:02:56.440 of equation. But but definitely, I think in the in 1:02:56.440 --> 1:02:58.160 the very early stages, again, it was just sort of 1:02:58.200 --> 1:03:00.680 a one golf course sort of thing. It was very 1:03:00.760 --> 1:03:04.480 much the idea of let's tap into this this Charlotte market. 1:03:04.520 --> 1:03:06.480 And I think it's I think it's a fair conclusion 1:03:06.520 --> 1:03:09.040 to say that the ambition of the place has has 1:03:09.120 --> 1:03:11.280 grown large because you know, Aaron had a lot of 1:03:11.280 --> 1:03:14.640 ambition coming into this, and so he wanted to not 1:03:14.720 --> 1:03:18.160 only serve the immediate market, but also make this place 1:03:18.160 --> 1:03:21.480 where people will fly in and steady in play. So 1:03:22.920 --> 1:03:24.760 I think it's great, and you know, I I think 1:03:24.760 --> 1:03:28.040 that it's great. I think, you know, my primary task 1:03:28.120 --> 1:03:29.680 is to build a golf course that's good enough to 1:03:29.680 --> 1:03:32.160 make people want to fly in from timbuckto to play, 1:03:32.440 --> 1:03:36.200 right that that's my challenge. And if we do that, well, 1:03:36.400 --> 1:03:38.840 you know, I hope that you know, there's a foursome 1:03:38.840 --> 1:03:41.400 out there with two guys from Charlotte who were able 1:03:41.440 --> 1:03:43.760 to get away for the day and uh, you know, 1:03:44.000 --> 1:03:45.920 two guys from Dublin who flew in because they just 1:03:45.960 --> 1:03:48.240 had to see this place and they're playing together. That 1:03:48.280 --> 1:03:50.280 would be that would be a pretty cool outcome here. 1:03:51.200 --> 1:03:54.080 Did anything shift for you on the design side when 1:03:54.120 --> 1:03:57.200 the idea for the place went from you know, we're 1:03:57.200 --> 1:03:59.680 just going to build this one golf course to we're 1:03:59.680 --> 1:04:03.240 looking to build you know, maybe four or five golf courses. 1:04:03.840 --> 1:04:07.040 Zero not at all, not at all. Had a pretty clear, 1:04:08.080 --> 1:04:10.560 pretty clear idea of kind of what I wanted to 1:04:10.560 --> 1:04:14.800 do with this, and I kind of I'm a little 1:04:14.800 --> 1:04:18.120 bit of a curmudgeon on the on the commercialism thing, 1:04:18.200 --> 1:04:22.120 where you know, even though the commercial ambitions increased on 1:04:22.160 --> 1:04:25.720 the project, I felt like, you know, from a design standpoint, 1:04:25.760 --> 1:04:27.800 you don't want that to kind of creep into your 1:04:28.080 --> 1:04:30.360 your whole designs that a great golf course is a 1:04:30.360 --> 1:04:33.080 great golf course. Whether it's public or private, You're you're 1:04:33.120 --> 1:04:36.280 trying to get the best eighteen holes out of that 1:04:36.360 --> 1:04:39.360 property that you can. And so whether there's a stay 1:04:39.360 --> 1:04:42.440 and play component, whether it's a you know, whether it's 1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:46.200 a local joint, whether it's a private club, that has 1:04:46.480 --> 1:04:50.880 never really impacted my thinking about what I'm going to 1:04:50.920 --> 1:04:53.680 do in terms of routing, in terms of shaping. I 1:04:53.720 --> 1:04:55.240 really mean that it never has. 1:04:56.800 --> 1:04:59.360 Well, I mean we were talking about the or you 1:04:59.400 --> 1:05:02.240 were talking about the green size is early, yeah, And 1:05:02.560 --> 1:05:05.640 when I see that, the first thing I wonder is, well, well, 1:05:05.680 --> 1:05:09.760 how do you how do you balance that with resort playability? 1:05:10.120 --> 1:05:12.760 Because that that is something that I notice certainly at 1:05:13.480 --> 1:05:18.000 certain destination golf resorts where where I've seen this architects 1:05:18.000 --> 1:05:21.480 work on the private side and and it's clear that 1:05:21.520 --> 1:05:25.080 they are much more willing to to to lean into 1:05:25.400 --> 1:05:29.760 difficulty challenge on the private side than on the resort side. 1:05:29.760 --> 1:05:31.320 So when you're building a golf course, it's on a 1:05:31.360 --> 1:05:34.600 severe piece of land, you've got small greens. Is there 1:05:34.680 --> 1:05:37.000 any concern for you like, Okay, this isn't going to 1:05:37.080 --> 1:05:40.360 fit at at the at the five course destination resort. 1:05:40.400 --> 1:05:42.920 That's going to be like a you know, a family destination. 1:05:43.000 --> 1:05:45.760 It's gonna it's going to take all take all kinds that. 1:05:46.120 --> 1:05:48.200 Did that ever enter into your thought process? 1:05:48.840 --> 1:05:51.200 It entered into my thought process, but it never really 1:05:51.280 --> 1:05:54.000 led to a change in action. So you're going now 1:05:54.040 --> 1:05:56.720 you're now you're you're poking the bear here because I'm 1:05:56.720 --> 1:05:59.560 gonna let me go on a rant here about this 1:05:59.640 --> 1:06:02.240 fult because you're getting to something No, honestly like this 1:06:02.320 --> 1:06:03.320 is this is really good? 1:06:03.360 --> 1:06:05.600 So I intend I intend to poke the barrel a 1:06:05.600 --> 1:06:06.480 little yea question? 1:06:06.920 --> 1:06:11.640 Yeah, So, I mean, okay, so the I mean people 1:06:11.680 --> 1:06:14.160 talk a lot about the differences of you know, like 1:06:14.240 --> 1:06:17.920 the true classical architecture of the early you know, nineteen 1:06:17.960 --> 1:06:22.520 hundreds and and versus the kind of the modern neo 1:06:22.600 --> 1:06:26.000 classical design ushered in by sand Hills, and you know 1:06:26.040 --> 1:06:30.120 the similarities are obvious. Right, there's an embraceive ground game architecture, 1:06:30.160 --> 1:06:34.760 and there's a naturalism. And the differences are noticeable too, Right. 1:06:34.800 --> 1:06:37.200 The greens tend to be bigger today, the fairways tend 1:06:37.200 --> 1:06:40.800 to be wider, there's probably more exposed sand today. Courses 1:06:40.800 --> 1:06:45.080 are probably a little bit longer, but you know, and 1:06:45.160 --> 1:06:47.600 those are stylistic differences. But I mean, to me, the 1:06:47.600 --> 1:06:52.760 most the most fundamental thing that that's changed over time 1:06:54.000 --> 1:06:57.280 is kind of what is seen as the purpose of 1:06:57.320 --> 1:06:59.840 a golf course. And I have this thesis, and I 1:07:00.040 --> 1:07:04.120 there's you know, I can't empirically back it up, but 1:07:04.120 --> 1:07:08.240 but my thesis is that the the great dead architects 1:07:09.640 --> 1:07:12.800 put more emphasis on designing a golf course to be 1:07:12.880 --> 1:07:18.520 an exam of a golfer skill, whereas a live architects 1:07:18.600 --> 1:07:23.400 put more emphasis on fun whatever that, you know, whatever 1:07:23.440 --> 1:07:25.720 that means. And I think that and I'm not assigning 1:07:26.440 --> 1:07:29.800 good or bad here, but I think that that distinction 1:07:29.920 --> 1:07:32.280 really drives a lot of the differences that we're seeing 1:07:32.320 --> 1:07:34.680 in the ground. So to me, that this fault line, 1:07:35.400 --> 1:07:37.320 like when I read the old documents and the you know, 1:07:37.360 --> 1:07:40.080 the old writings, it's it's at least clear to me 1:07:40.960 --> 1:07:44.680 from the from the the Great Dead guys that it 1:07:44.720 --> 1:07:47.000 was about testing the golf. There was a big emphasis 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:50.240 on that rigorously examining a golfer skill set. It kind 1:07:50.240 --> 1:07:52.480 of you know, exposing a weaker player. 1:07:52.560 --> 1:07:52.680 Right. 1:07:52.720 --> 1:07:54.920 You think of how Crump talked about Pine Valley, or 1:07:54.920 --> 1:07:58.240 how Founds talked about Oakmon or Ross of number two, 1:07:58.520 --> 1:08:00.880 or you know when when they when they were getting 1:08:00.880 --> 1:08:03.160 investors for Pine Valley, they basically said, this is no 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:05.280 place for the for the duffer, you know, as if 1:08:05.280 --> 1:08:05.880 it was a good thing. 1:08:05.960 --> 1:08:08.360 Right, Well, they wanted to have golf. They wanted to 1:08:08.400 --> 1:08:11.360 build golf courses that would form great players. That was 1:08:11.400 --> 1:08:15.880 like a big motive behind the Philadelphia School of Golf Architectures. 1:08:16.040 --> 1:08:19.000 You know, we're not producing good enough players right now. 1:08:19.200 --> 1:08:22.880 We got to go build golf courses that were iron sharpens. 1:08:22.479 --> 1:08:26.080 Iron right, yes, right, I mean, and they all George C. 1:08:26.240 --> 1:08:28.040 Thomas and his book talked about that, you know, the 1:08:28.120 --> 1:08:30.320 test of a golf hole CEB McDonald, I mean that 1:08:30.400 --> 1:08:32.960 was the templates were sort of like these are the 1:08:32.960 --> 1:08:37.120 best standardized questions on the exam right, Ross, I mean 1:08:37.120 --> 1:08:39.280 that famous sign that's on near the first t on 1:08:39.360 --> 1:08:41.920 Piner's number two where he talks about this is a test. 1:08:42.000 --> 1:08:44.600 You know, William Flynn wrote a little he wrote a 1:08:44.640 --> 1:08:47.479 little blurb in the USJA bulletin in like the late twenties. 1:08:47.680 --> 1:08:49.120 It was like a few paragraphs and he used the 1:08:49.120 --> 1:08:52.160 word test eight times. So I think those guys they 1:08:52.280 --> 1:08:56.840 saw golf as a physical and an intellectual exam and 1:08:56.880 --> 1:08:59.120 I think they designed their golf courses to kind of 1:08:59.760 --> 1:09:03.840 really exacerbate the different outcomes between a good shot and 1:09:03.880 --> 1:09:06.280 a bad shot. Right, the lines were really fine there. 1:09:06.280 --> 1:09:09.040 I mean, look no further than the ten pole at Chinnacock, 1:09:09.080 --> 1:09:11.479 which we just saw right, Like, the line is really 1:09:11.520 --> 1:09:15.360 really fine. But yeah, I mean, you know, drivers over 1:09:15.400 --> 1:09:18.479 an ocean with bunkers long sixteen at Cyprus, or all 1:09:18.479 --> 1:09:21.600 of Pine Valley or you know. I think nowadays, I 1:09:21.640 --> 1:09:25.920 think there's much more attention to the commercialism aspect of things. 1:09:26.040 --> 1:09:29.479 I think developers and architects spend a lot more time 1:09:29.479 --> 1:09:32.680 thinking about how do you narrow the outcomes between a 1:09:32.680 --> 1:09:34.800 good shot and a bad shot. And that seems true 1:09:34.840 --> 1:09:37.760 to me whether it's public or private, but probably a 1:09:37.800 --> 1:09:41.759 little bit more true on the public side to your point, 1:09:41.840 --> 1:09:47.000 And I think you see, I think our fellow nerds 1:09:47.000 --> 1:09:48.320 will fact check me on this. I think you could 1:09:48.360 --> 1:09:50.479 find plenty of examples of the dead guys talking about 1:09:50.560 --> 1:09:53.839 playability and enjoyment. Right, They weren't total massachists, they weren't crazy. 1:09:54.120 --> 1:09:58.960 Well Alistair mackenzie was really the biggest proponent of the 1:09:59.000 --> 1:10:02.640 greatest pleasure for the That was his formulation. But the 1:10:02.680 --> 1:10:04.960 funny thing about it is, and you're you're so right 1:10:05.040 --> 1:10:08.240 to point this out, is that that wasn't necessarily the 1:10:08.280 --> 1:10:11.320 majority view among his peers. You know, we we paint 1:10:11.560 --> 1:10:14.720 Golden Age golf architecture with a broad brush. We think 1:10:14.760 --> 1:10:17.200 it's we tend to talk about it as though it's 1:10:17.320 --> 1:10:19.880 one thing, one philosophy, but it was really not. It 1:10:19.920 --> 1:10:23.880 was many, many philosophies. There was a you know, there 1:10:23.920 --> 1:10:26.639 was a whole, a whole melting pot of ideas during 1:10:26.680 --> 1:10:29.000 that period that we're all, you know, mixed with each 1:10:29.000 --> 1:10:31.120 other and fighting with each other. And I think you're 1:10:31.200 --> 1:10:35.080 right that the probably the majority view among the among 1:10:35.120 --> 1:10:38.000 the great old dead guys of golf architecture is that 1:10:38.960 --> 1:10:42.120 golf shouldn't necessarily be about the greatest pleasure for the 1:10:42.120 --> 1:10:46.479 greatest number. It should be about identifying the greatest player, and. 1:10:46.479 --> 1:10:49.519 I think that that the emphasis has changed a little bit, 1:10:49.600 --> 1:10:52.720 I think since then. So I think, and whether you know, 1:10:53.360 --> 1:10:55.559 I think it's perhaps no surprise that we see more 1:10:55.560 --> 1:10:59.400 with in modern neoclassical stuff. It's I do think you 1:10:59.439 --> 1:11:04.680 see more auto correct features in modern golf. You do 1:11:04.760 --> 1:11:07.880 see more backboards and sideboards, and funnels and bowls and 1:11:08.280 --> 1:11:10.599 concave shapes that kind of funnel things towards the pin. 1:11:11.120 --> 1:11:14.400 You see more counter slopes internally in greens for balls 1:11:14.400 --> 1:11:16.760 to crash into, you know, I mean, it's not a 1:11:16.800 --> 1:11:19.559 four percent tilt anymore where there's nothing to stop you right, 1:11:19.600 --> 1:11:21.840 there's there's more counter slopes. So and I think that's 1:11:21.840 --> 1:11:24.519 a commercial I think some of that is driven some 1:11:24.560 --> 1:11:27.479 of it's driven by agronomy, which I can rant about that, 1:11:28.080 --> 1:11:32.320 but I think some of it is commercialism, right where 1:11:32.439 --> 1:11:34.719 back in the day, you know these guys like, well 1:11:35.040 --> 1:11:38.720 you said it better than I'm gonna say it. But 1:11:38.360 --> 1:11:41.439 but I to kind of circle back to all this, 1:11:42.600 --> 1:11:45.759 I just I feel like that, you know, the golf 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:49.439 courses that I most identify with, the golf courses that 1:11:49.600 --> 1:11:52.880 I have the most fun playing, the golf courses that 1:11:52.920 --> 1:11:56.840 I think are the greatest in the world. They have 1:11:56.960 --> 1:12:00.439 some level of they are asking you to do something. 1:12:00.920 --> 1:12:06.120 They are they are examining the golfer's skill sets. And 1:12:06.160 --> 1:12:08.040 it's not just like the US Open courses, right, I mean, 1:12:08.200 --> 1:12:10.000 whether it's cypers Well, it's Door Knook, whether it's Old 1:12:10.000 --> 1:12:14.599 Town Perie Dunes, whatever, like, there's there's that, and so 1:12:14.720 --> 1:12:17.080 I try to you know, and I don't think I 1:12:17.080 --> 1:12:21.240 think if people are going to travel great distances to 1:12:21.320 --> 1:12:24.120 play great golf, I don't think they're totally averse to 1:12:24.840 --> 1:12:28.160 dealing with dealing with the challenging golf course. I mean, 1:12:28.200 --> 1:12:30.800 people travel great lengths to get their brains beat in 1:12:30.840 --> 1:12:35.040 by Pineer's Number two or or Pebble or Pebble. 1:12:35.120 --> 1:12:38.960 Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, the two the two er you know, 1:12:39.040 --> 1:12:42.760 destination golf courses. Pebble and Pinehurst Number two are US 1:12:42.840 --> 1:12:43.759 Open golf courses. 1:12:45.080 --> 1:12:47.000 Yeah. I mean maybe, you know, maybe if they weren't 1:12:47.120 --> 1:12:50.000 US Open golf courses, maybe then people wouldn't be as 1:12:50.000 --> 1:12:51.479 willing to fork over a bunch of money to get 1:12:51.479 --> 1:12:54.320 their brains beat in. But but nonetheless, I I just 1:12:54.880 --> 1:12:58.960 you know, in terms of this commercialism, it's it's sort 1:12:59.000 --> 1:13:01.760 of cliche at this point, but I do feel like 1:13:01.840 --> 1:13:06.200 the only way to really truly do this work is 1:13:06.640 --> 1:13:09.080 to do something that you like and that rings true 1:13:09.120 --> 1:13:12.720 to you. And that is just the best I can do, 1:13:12.800 --> 1:13:14.760 you know. I mean, the only thing I can do 1:13:14.800 --> 1:13:16.920 when when we're building a golf course, when I'm approving 1:13:16.920 --> 1:13:19.080 a fairway or a green or whatever is I have 1:13:19.160 --> 1:13:21.519 to stand on that green or I have to stand 1:13:21.560 --> 1:13:23.000 in the pharaway and I have to look at that green, 1:13:23.040 --> 1:13:24.400 and I got to say this is a shot I 1:13:24.439 --> 1:13:27.120 want to hit. And beyond that, I don't know what 1:13:27.160 --> 1:13:29.240 other measure I can put to it. I think if 1:13:29.280 --> 1:13:32.040 you start to kind of, you know, factor in too many, 1:13:32.240 --> 1:13:34.840 too many different things of is it too easy, is 1:13:34.880 --> 1:13:36.759 it too hard? Well, maybe I do this in a private, 1:13:36.760 --> 1:13:39.320 Maybe I do this in a public. Yeah, you know, 1:13:39.360 --> 1:13:43.400 I think you could drive yourself crazy with that. I 1:13:43.400 --> 1:13:45.120 think you just got to go with what feels right 1:13:45.120 --> 1:13:48.439 in your bones. And and you know, the golf courses 1:13:48.720 --> 1:13:51.160 I love the most, or ones that they're not afraid 1:13:51.200 --> 1:13:52.960 to ask a difficult question once in a while. 1:13:53.720 --> 1:13:56.120 Yeah, Well, what you're talking about may just be a 1:13:56.120 --> 1:13:59.720 personal preference of yours and and something you want to 1:13:59.720 --> 1:14:03.120 see out of out of your particular golf courses. But 1:14:03.200 --> 1:14:05.639 it is also you kind of standing against the tides 1:14:05.680 --> 1:14:08.720 of history right now, because I would say, you know, 1:14:08.880 --> 1:14:11.800 if if, if we're talking about destination golf in in 1:14:11.880 --> 1:14:15.840 this uh, in this episode, the influence of destination golf 1:14:15.920 --> 1:14:20.439 overall generally, not not necessarily in every single particular course 1:14:20.479 --> 1:14:23.960 that that is a destination golf course, but in general, 1:14:24.400 --> 1:14:28.160 the turn toward public destination golf as a as a 1:14:28.200 --> 1:14:34.360 development hotspot has produced a lot of courses that emphasize 1:14:34.360 --> 1:14:37.920 playability above all and that that that do pursue that 1:14:38.000 --> 1:14:40.200 idea of the greatest pleasure for the greatest number, and 1:14:40.240 --> 1:14:43.320 a few of those courses have pushed that idea about 1:14:43.360 --> 1:14:46.080 as far as it can possibly go. We we are 1:14:46.080 --> 1:14:50.040 going to uh, you know, defend birdie instead of par. 1:14:50.280 --> 1:14:53.400 We are fine with you coming here and shooting your 1:14:53.800 --> 1:14:56.559 best ever score. We are fine with care af fairways 1:14:56.640 --> 1:14:59.800 and greens that that are that are equally you know, 1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:04.280 from from pole one to all eighteen and and and 1:15:04.360 --> 1:15:09.479 some of those courses have become very popular. And so uh, 1:15:09.840 --> 1:15:12.760 you know, working within the destination golf market and saying no, 1:15:12.840 --> 1:15:15.200 I'm gonna I'm going to push in the other direction. 1:15:16.120 --> 1:15:18.640 That takes some effort, right, you have to you have 1:15:18.680 --> 1:15:20.600 to kind of stand on business in order to do that. 1:15:20.920 --> 1:15:23.640 Sure, I think I think part of it is you 1:15:23.720 --> 1:15:27.840 never want to do something that's physically not possible for 1:15:27.920 --> 1:15:30.080 all players. And as this comes down to the firth carry, 1:15:30.080 --> 1:15:33.120 I mean, this is why we change the fourth hole 1:15:33.400 --> 1:15:35.439 because I didn't know physically, like if you if you 1:15:35.520 --> 1:15:38.599 hit a great shot for you physically, you might not 1:15:38.640 --> 1:15:41.400 be able to jump that to jump that creek, and 1:15:41.400 --> 1:15:43.760 that would be bad design. So I think playability for 1:15:43.840 --> 1:15:47.160 all is is very very important. From like a physical standpoint, 1:15:47.200 --> 1:15:48.880 I think, you know, you can't build a public golf 1:15:48.920 --> 1:15:52.479 course where some of your players just can't physically pull 1:15:52.520 --> 1:15:56.280 the shot off. But but I but I think it's 1:15:56.320 --> 1:15:59.200 okay to ask a question that you you have to hit. 1:15:59.680 --> 1:16:01.719 You have to a really good shot here. You're physically 1:16:01.760 --> 1:16:04.559 capable of hitting this shot. You might be a fifteen handicap, 1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:06.920 but you can do this shot. You might not be 1:16:06.920 --> 1:16:08.360 able to do it this time, or you might not 1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:10.080 be able to do it eighty percent at the time, 1:16:10.560 --> 1:16:12.519 but you can do this shot. And I think that 1:16:12.640 --> 1:16:14.679 Piner's number two is a great example of that. There's 1:16:14.680 --> 1:16:18.080 no force carries. Miss Havercamp can bump everything along the ground, 1:16:18.200 --> 1:16:21.920 run it all up. You know, when Miss Havercamp misses 1:16:22.240 --> 1:16:24.960 a green on Piner's number two, you know, is she 1:16:25.040 --> 1:16:27.080 getting up and down eighty percent of the time? Hell no, 1:16:28.680 --> 1:16:31.360 But she can hit that shot. And I think that's 1:16:31.360 --> 1:16:34.920 what keeps people coming back. And you know, I love 1:16:35.200 --> 1:16:37.599 living in Pinehurst and just being around number two because 1:16:37.600 --> 1:16:40.280 you I mean from a from the thirty handicap to 1:16:40.400 --> 1:16:44.120 the scratch player, you know, you always want to head 1:16:44.120 --> 1:16:46.240 back to number two because you feel like, man, I 1:16:46.320 --> 1:16:49.440 had that shot, I could do that. That's in my repertoire. 1:16:49.479 --> 1:16:52.880 So that's how I think about playability. Is this in 1:16:52.920 --> 1:16:55.400 the repertoire of everybody out here. It might not be 1:16:55.800 --> 1:16:59.439 a high percentage play, but that's what I'm trying to 1:16:59.439 --> 1:17:01.160 do to a chiave out here. But yeah, it is 1:17:01.200 --> 1:17:04.320 a little bit. It is a little bit against the grain, 1:17:04.600 --> 1:17:07.120 I guess. But and I think you're right that the destination. 1:17:08.000 --> 1:17:10.960 So my dad was talking about this earlier. We were 1:17:11.000 --> 1:17:13.800 just looking at I don't know, the top whatever. We 1:17:13.800 --> 1:17:15.320 were looking at top fifty in the world, and we 1:17:15.320 --> 1:17:20.040 were just batting around stuff and and you know, sand Hills, 1:17:20.040 --> 1:17:24.320 I think is the only on most top at least 1:17:24.320 --> 1:17:26.360 top one hundred in the in the US, sand Hills 1:17:26.400 --> 1:17:28.200 is probably the only one. I think that the only 1:17:28.280 --> 1:17:31.040 modern course that cracks the top ten. 1:17:31.240 --> 1:17:34.360 I think, yeah, right, yeah, Pacific Dunes is sometimes. You know, 1:17:34.960 --> 1:17:38.120 he's like thirty. Then the world top one hundred's you know, 1:17:38.160 --> 1:17:41.439 you see terror eedy up pretty high. But is what 1:17:41.479 --> 1:17:43.479 you were noticing that there just aren't that many modern 1:17:43.520 --> 1:17:44.240 courses up there. 1:17:44.400 --> 1:17:46.800 Well, no more that. So he said something and he's like, 1:17:46.880 --> 1:17:49.080 you know, we've been fortunate enough to play a lot 1:17:49.120 --> 1:17:52.160 of places, and you know, he said, you know, it's 1:17:52.200 --> 1:17:56.640 hard for me to think of a you know, like 1:17:56.920 --> 1:18:01.560 a great modern course that I felt was as rigorous 1:18:02.160 --> 1:18:06.040 of an exam as the great kind of classical courses. 1:18:06.040 --> 1:18:07.360 So we were just going through kind of that top 1:18:07.400 --> 1:18:10.280 ten and sand Hills is like my probably my fourth. 1:18:10.800 --> 1:18:12.880 If I did my top five, sand Hills probably like 1:18:12.960 --> 1:18:15.600 fourth on the planet from me. I mean, I absolutely 1:18:15.680 --> 1:18:20.200 love sand Hills. I do think it's the greatest modern course, 1:18:21.200 --> 1:18:23.280 but I don't think sand Hills is anywhere near as 1:18:23.680 --> 1:18:27.040 rigorous as it's kind of ancient peers in the in 1:18:27.080 --> 1:18:29.840 the world top ten or whatever, so like that, that's 1:18:29.840 --> 1:18:31.479 just my opinion. But he kind of brought that out too, 1:18:31.520 --> 1:18:35.200 He's like, yeah, these you know, they tended to be 1:18:35.240 --> 1:18:37.320 more difficult back back in the day. And part of 1:18:37.320 --> 1:18:38.840 that too is agronomy of just you know, they were 1:18:38.880 --> 1:18:40.840 they were building things for slower speeds back then and 1:18:40.840 --> 1:18:44.040 now they're faster, so there's an element of that. But 1:18:44.560 --> 1:18:47.800 I do think I think it's fair to say it 1:18:47.880 --> 1:18:49.880 sounds like you agree with me that there's there's a 1:18:49.920 --> 1:18:53.439 little bit less rigor in the modern destination golf course 1:18:53.520 --> 1:18:57.160 than you know, the the great old classics that we 1:18:57.200 --> 1:18:59.160 all admire. I think that's a fair thing to say. 1:18:59.720 --> 1:19:05.800 Yeah, And I think there's there's probably a reason for that, 1:19:06.080 --> 1:19:10.639 and that is that the destination golf course naturally lends 1:19:10.720 --> 1:19:14.120 itself to that. There is a motive for the developer 1:19:14.200 --> 1:19:20.160 and the architect not to test because they're they're aware 1:19:20.240 --> 1:19:24.479 that many golfers will just play this course once and 1:19:24.520 --> 1:19:26.519 if they happen to have a bad round, then they're 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:31.000 not going to remember the course fondly. Whereas the architects 1:19:31.080 --> 1:19:33.760 that we're talking about who built those other courses in 1:19:34.160 --> 1:19:38.599 the in the top ten or top twenty what they 1:19:38.600 --> 1:19:40.960 were building was a course that they knew members would 1:19:40.960 --> 1:19:43.720 play over and over and over again. They were primarily 1:19:43.720 --> 1:19:49.439 building country clubs, golf clubs, and and and so they 1:19:49.520 --> 1:19:51.479 knew the players would get another crack at it and 1:19:51.479 --> 1:19:54.640 would maybe want to leave something on the table with 1:19:54.720 --> 1:19:56.519 each round, because then they would have a reason to 1:19:56.560 --> 1:19:59.080 come back and try to master the test. Pineer's number 1:19:59.080 --> 1:20:01.839 two great example of this. Part of the reason Pineer's 1:20:01.920 --> 1:20:06.600 Number two is so so interesting and it is that 1:20:06.680 --> 1:20:08.559 you feel like you should be able to score well there, 1:20:08.560 --> 1:20:11.200 but but you just don't, you know, And so it 1:20:11.200 --> 1:20:12.400 does make you want to go back. 1:20:13.640 --> 1:20:17.040 And this cause like the type of the exam matters too. Yeah, 1:20:17.080 --> 1:20:18.160 there's a lot of nuance here. 1:20:18.160 --> 1:20:21.120 Like if it just feels impossible, yeah, right, if it's 1:20:21.160 --> 1:20:24.439 just like you know, ten wide yard ten yard wide 1:20:24.479 --> 1:20:28.520 fairways and trees everywhere and you know, endless rough, and 1:20:28.560 --> 1:20:30.120 then then you're not going to feel like I need 1:20:30.160 --> 1:20:30.800 to go back there and. 1:20:30.800 --> 1:20:34.000 Try to Yeah, nineteen seventy four wing Foot is not 1:20:34.080 --> 1:20:36.000 going to work as a public golf course. Nobody's going 1:20:36.000 --> 1:20:37.920 to do that. But like, yeah, if you don't have 1:20:37.960 --> 1:20:40.040 fun playing Piner's number two, I mean I don't know 1:20:40.080 --> 1:20:43.760 what to tell you. You know, it's just that is 1:20:43.960 --> 1:20:46.280 exactly what you said, Like, that's a that's a doable 1:20:46.320 --> 1:20:49.360 golf course. So it does matter. It's not it's not 1:20:49.439 --> 1:20:52.400 challenging for the sake of challenging, because I do think 1:20:52.640 --> 1:20:54.960 there are a lot of tough exams out there that 1:20:55.000 --> 1:20:58.599 are just no fun. You know, exactly what you said, 1:20:58.600 --> 1:21:00.400 But there are exams out there that are a hell 1:21:00.400 --> 1:21:04.120 of a lot of fun. So you know, it's it's challenging, 1:21:04.120 --> 1:21:05.839 and you got to, you know, think about the design 1:21:06.680 --> 1:21:09.160 of it and make sure that it happens. But I 1:21:09.240 --> 1:21:11.800 just I don't think that it's I don't think that's 1:21:12.200 --> 1:21:15.400 an impossible task to have a challenging golf course that's 1:21:15.400 --> 1:21:17.400 also a hell of a lot of fun. It has 1:21:17.439 --> 1:21:21.240 been done, we know the model, we know what works well. 1:21:21.400 --> 1:21:24.599 This has been a fascinating conversation, Mike. There's a lot 1:21:24.640 --> 1:21:26.200 more beat on this, But we could go on for 1:21:26.240 --> 1:21:29.360 another two hours easily, good we could, but we got 1:21:29.400 --> 1:21:32.679 to cut it off here. You've got things to do. Uh. 1:21:32.760 --> 1:21:35.840 You mentioned this towards the beginning of our of our chat, 1:21:35.920 --> 1:21:39.679 But what is the timeline for for Candy? Read right now? 1:21:39.720 --> 1:21:42.960 For for both the you know course one, the eighteen 1:21:42.960 --> 1:21:45.479 hole course that you design, as well as the one 1:21:45.520 --> 1:21:47.479 your co designed, the short course you're co designing with 1:21:47.520 --> 1:21:48.280 Michelle we West. 1:21:48.800 --> 1:21:53.240 Yeah, so then the on course one we are sodding 1:21:53.320 --> 1:21:53.760 right now. 1:21:54.520 --> 1:21:57.639 I've seen pictures. There's there's photos on the Instagram through 1:21:57.640 --> 1:22:00.840 the Candy Root account and showing golf out there, so. 1:22:00.800 --> 1:22:05.639 There's yeah, we're sotting and that we're sprigging the the 1:22:05.760 --> 1:22:10.400 last five greens tomorrow. So if all goes well and 1:22:10.760 --> 1:22:14.760 mother Nature cooperates, we should be you know, open for 1:22:14.800 --> 1:22:17.320 preview play this fall. You know, one of the advantages 1:22:17.360 --> 1:22:19.080 of Bermuda grass is when it gets hot out, it 1:22:19.120 --> 1:22:22.599 grows really fast, and so you know, we we should 1:22:22.600 --> 1:22:24.599 be able to have some preview play this this fall. 1:22:24.640 --> 1:22:26.760 But you know, part of it was because we did 1:22:26.760 --> 1:22:28.400 such a little shaping, we're able to kind of get 1:22:28.400 --> 1:22:30.400 ahead start on all the other on all the other 1:22:30.439 --> 1:22:32.960 things too. So the timeline has been, uh, you know, 1:22:33.040 --> 1:22:35.640 to our advantage here. So hopefully people are out there 1:22:35.640 --> 1:22:39.800 playing golf by this fall, and then on the on 1:22:39.840 --> 1:22:43.160 the short course with Michelle, I think the game plan 1:22:43.240 --> 1:22:45.720 there would be we're just starting to kind of you know, 1:22:46.680 --> 1:22:50.200 tackle kind of some routing elements. So that's not under 1:22:50.200 --> 1:22:55.040 construction yet, but I think the goal would be to 1:22:55.080 --> 1:22:59.960 start construction by by next fall would be the ideal goal. 1:23:01.160 --> 1:23:03.360 I think the best time to kind of start shaping 1:23:03.680 --> 1:23:05.479 in this transition zone. It's kind of like a false 1:23:05.479 --> 1:23:07.160 start date, and then you can shape kind of throughout 1:23:07.160 --> 1:23:09.439 the winter and then all your shaping's done and boom, 1:23:09.439 --> 1:23:11.200 you can grasp it immediately as soon as it gets 1:23:11.240 --> 1:23:14.519 warm out. So that's kind of the ideal timeline. So 1:23:14.560 --> 1:23:17.720 I think that's kind of where we're headed. But you know, 1:23:18.000 --> 1:23:19.639 there's still some things to do in terms of where 1:23:19.680 --> 1:23:22.200 exactly we want to put the Part three course and 1:23:22.240 --> 1:23:24.040 how it kind of fits in the broader site plan 1:23:24.080 --> 1:23:26.800 and then do a routing there within. So that's a 1:23:26.880 --> 1:23:29.240 little bit further off, but we're looking forward to get 1:23:29.280 --> 1:23:31.760 cracking on it and we'll probably you know, start really 1:23:31.760 --> 1:23:34.559 hammering out routings here pretty pretty soon, so we could 1:23:34.560 --> 1:23:38.759 get it into the getting it into the permit cycle 1:23:39.960 --> 1:23:40.439 sounds good. 1:23:40.560 --> 1:23:45.080 I'm looking forward to seeing both courses. Congratulations on the project, 1:23:45.160 --> 1:23:47.760 and yeah, have to have you back on the podcast 1:23:48.160 --> 1:23:50.439 soon to talk about talk about the other stuff you're 1:23:50.479 --> 1:23:51.559 going to do anytime. 1:23:51.600 --> 1:23:53.400 Man, Love this podcast, listen to it all the time. 1:23:53.800 --> 1:23:54.880 Thank you, yep. 1:23:55.080 --> 1:23:55.400 Thanks. 1:24:02.240 --> 1:24:06.000 This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam. 1:24:06.479 --> 1:24:09.840 Thank you, Will. I have a simple ask for you 1:24:09.920 --> 1:24:12.960 right now, and that is just to go to wherever 1:24:13.000 --> 1:24:16.600 you're listening to this, whether it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify 1:24:17.400 --> 1:24:21.040 and leave a review or leave some kind of comment. 1:24:21.120 --> 1:24:25.160 On Spotify, you can comment on specific episodes and let 1:24:25.200 --> 1:24:28.439 me know how Designing Golf is going for you. Maybe 1:24:28.520 --> 1:24:31.120 suggest some topics that we can get into. Let me 1:24:31.200 --> 1:24:34.400 know what you're interested in. I would like to hear 1:24:34.800 --> 1:24:37.720 some feedback on the podcast. It's always great to hear 1:24:37.760 --> 1:24:41.439 from listeners, So just do that for me. That's a favor. 1:24:41.680 --> 1:24:44.479 That's it. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back 1:24:44.520 --> 1:24:56.000 again soon with another episode.