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Speaker 1: He denied it. He was like, I'm not gonna get

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Speaker 1: in trouble for anything, and then I mean, at one

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Speaker 1: point he admitted, yes, there were pictures of kids, but

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Speaker 1: I've checked all the laws on this and there's nothing

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Speaker 1: wrong with what I'm doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal Episode six collections.

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Speaker 2: As I mentioned in previous episodes, we heard from women

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Speaker 2: all over the country. It's what made us realize there's

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Speaker 2: a bigger story here. People from all walks of life

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Speaker 2: are in possession of child sexual abuse material, also known

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Speaker 2: as c SAM. There's no economic difference or profession that

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Speaker 2: separates deviant behavior as humans. For families that are stung

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Speaker 2: by betrayal, the shock manifests in different ways. We heard

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Speaker 2: from Erin, whose story has a lot in common with Ashley's,

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Speaker 2: but it's also very different. You've heard about fight, flight

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Speaker 2: or freeze. This brave lady took it to another level.

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Speaker 1: I'm a marriage and family therapist. My dad was military

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Speaker 1: and my oldest brother was also military. My mom had

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Speaker 1: a real heart for the families that were left behind

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Speaker 1: during deployments, and I think that really inspired me to

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Speaker 1: become a marriage and family therapist. Someone who could understand

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Speaker 1: that helping out first responders and military is impacting their lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: During the height of going to Afghanistan and going over

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Speaker 1: to the Middle East, deployments were happening a lot more quickly,

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Speaker 1: so you have these guys out there, and rather than

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Speaker 1: doing your time and then coming home, you were rotating

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Speaker 1: out like every six months, so this trauma was never

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Speaker 1: really ending.

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Speaker 2: Aaron's mother is now deceased, but her influence remains. Erin

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Speaker 2: is comfortable around military culture and its people. Through her family,

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Speaker 2: she met a soldier.

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Speaker 1: Joel would come home from deployments and hang out at

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Speaker 1: my brother's house where we became friends. And I had

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Speaker 1: recently gone through a breakup and my brother said, you

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Speaker 1: have shit tasted men. You really should date someone more

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Speaker 1: like Joel because he was a soldier. He was in

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Speaker 1: the military, so there were things that we thought were

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Speaker 1: like inherent guarantees, you know, like he wouldn't be on drugs,

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Speaker 1: he would be background checked, you know, certain things that

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Speaker 1: you figure you probably have the same value system. And

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Speaker 1: we grew up in the same community.

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Speaker 2: That friendship grew into a relationship and then into a marriage.

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Speaker 2: Aaron was happy they eventually had two kids, a little

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Speaker 2: boy and girl.

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Speaker 1: Ninety percent of the time, I would say it fit

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Speaker 1: the mold of my perfect relationship. He was supportive and loving,

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Speaker 1: and we had a symmetrical relationship where we could easily

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Speaker 1: interchange parts. You know, I'd mo Thelann, he'd mow thelan.

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Speaker 1: I'd change a diver, he'd change a diver. Like either

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Speaker 1: of us could take over some task and knock it

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Speaker 1: out and get it done.

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Speaker 2: Aaron's husband had the highest military clearance. She understood that

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Speaker 2: she'd never know everything he faced.

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Speaker 1: Joel worked in explosive ordnance disposal. His job was to

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Speaker 1: make sure that there were no bombs in certain areas,

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Speaker 1: or if there were bombs, to send in a person

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Speaker 1: or a robot to disarm that bomb. Also to pick

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Speaker 1: up any debris, and sometimes that was bodies. You wouldn't

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Speaker 1: leave a body behind, so you'd have to pick it up,

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Speaker 1: bag it and take it home.

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Speaker 2: She knew his job had unique stressors, so she made

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Speaker 2: some allowances for bad behavior. When the family relocated to

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Speaker 2: a small town in Texas, I took a toll on her.

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Speaker 2: She felt disconnected from people, and since that her husband

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Speaker 2: was becoming more distant as well.

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Speaker 1: When I noticed that our marriage was declining. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was because I was having a hard time adjusting

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Speaker 1: to this new area. You know, everything was different. It

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Speaker 1: was further away from my family. I felt more and

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Speaker 1: more isolated from them. My mom had died just before

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Speaker 1: we got married, and we had really good communication. But

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Speaker 1: when Jamison got involved, that's when we would fight.

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Speaker 2: Jamison was Joel's whiskey of.

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Speaker 1: Choice when he was really under the influence of alcohol.

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Speaker 1: I felt like I could I didn't reach him, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't talk to him. He would kick in the door

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Speaker 1: or I would ask for space. I would say, let's

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Speaker 1: come back to this in an hour and let ourselves

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Speaker 1: cool off, and then we can talk about this again.

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Speaker 1: He would pick the lock to the bedroom.

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Speaker 2: She's a therapist, so she did the natural thing, asked

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Speaker 2: for help, not just for herself but also for her husband.

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Speaker 2: But the therapist was discouraging.

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Speaker 1: He said, I honestly think you should just not bring

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Speaker 1: that up because he could lose his job, or he

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Speaker 1: could lose his weapon, and so I would just sort

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Speaker 1: of keep that to yourself.

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Speaker 2: Aaron thought about other areas where her marriage was struggling.

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Speaker 2: Their sex life was one of them.

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Speaker 1: I did feel like it was very automatic, and it

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Speaker 1: was very one sided. So like when you have one

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Speaker 1: of those Xbox controllers and you're like up down, up down,

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Speaker 1: x y Okay, it's done. Like I just like Mortal Kombat,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I know exactly what to do. I

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Speaker 1: know exactly what you like. And it didn't matter what

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Speaker 1: I liked. But maybe this is a part of marriage,

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Speaker 1: is it gets routine.

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Speaker 2: After a while, she wondered if there was something else

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Speaker 2: going on.

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Speaker 1: One night, he had gone out with a friend and

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Speaker 1: I had the inclination to snoop on his phone. I

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Speaker 1: feel like an angel or a guardian angel just was

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Speaker 1: nudging me, like, hey, something's off here. Go look through

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Speaker 1: his phone, go do something. So I looked through his

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Speaker 1: phone and I pulled up a picture in his search history.

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Speaker 1: It was a girl in a jazz outfit. It looked

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Speaker 1: like a Facebook page almost. She was maybe about six

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Speaker 1: years old. She was not naked, it wasn't anything lude.

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Speaker 1: It was like your wallet sized photos that you would

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Speaker 1: order from whatever. And she looked really sad. But the

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Speaker 1: comments underneath the picture are what really bothered me. This

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Speaker 1: is our little Jenny with like the devil emoji, like

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Speaker 1: a smiling devil emoji or whatever, and I thought this

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Speaker 1: is weird. So I confronted him about that, and he said,

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what that is. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what you're talking about. Maybe I clicked on something, you know, whatever,

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Speaker 1: it's accidental.

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Speaker 2: Arin wasn't buying Joel's story.

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Speaker 1: It just didn't feel right to me. I knew he

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Speaker 1: had a history with porn, which I didn't necessarily mind.

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Speaker 2: But this wasn't pornography. These were disturbing comments around a

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Speaker 2: little girl's photo in her husband's search history.

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Speaker 1: He gas lit me and I didn't accept it, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't think it was to the point where it

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Speaker 1: was something reportable because I don't know this girl. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how he got to this page.

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Speaker 2: Now they were a critical mass, and Erin knew he

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Speaker 2: needed help.

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Speaker 1: I got him a therapist that was experienced in the military.

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Speaker 1: He was actually a retired military person, and we paid

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Speaker 1: cash so there would be no record of him going

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Speaker 1: to therapy, and I just tried to make it as

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Speaker 1: easy as possible for him to go.

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Speaker 2: But he wasn't getting better. His behavior was growing more concerning.

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Speaker 1: We got into a fight in May. It was a

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Speaker 1: silly fight, like he had been storing all night. So

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Speaker 1: I went and slept on the couch so I could

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Speaker 1: just finally get some sleep. And he woke me up

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Speaker 1: in the morning because he wanted to have sex, and

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Speaker 1: I was just so delirious and cranky. I was like,

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Speaker 1: get away from me. I finally fell asleep, don't touch me.

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Speaker 1: So he got upset and he was in a really grouchy,

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Speaker 1: powdy mood because I had rejected him. I started making

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Speaker 1: breakfast for him and the kids. My daughter was one,

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Speaker 1: my son was three.

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Speaker 2: The tension escalated. Joel said something ugly and Aaron responded

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Speaker 2: in kind.

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Speaker 1: I walked away. He threw a sippy cup at my back,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't sound like a big deal, but it really

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Speaker 1: her like. He really threw that cup at me hard

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Speaker 1: and it hit me in the shoulder. So I went

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Speaker 1: in the bathroom and I cried for a while. I

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Speaker 1: ended up leaving. I just got in my car and

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Speaker 1: went for a drive and sat by the side of

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Speaker 1: the road and cried and thought for a while.

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Speaker 2: She needed more support, but she didn't know where to turn.

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Speaker 1: I was kind of afraid to tell my family what

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Speaker 1: was going on, because already they often had his back

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Speaker 1: on things, and I had this reputation for being the

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Speaker 1: dramatic baby sister, So I just kind of sat there

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Speaker 1: and thought, like, what am I going to do with this?

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe I can talk to him and get

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Speaker 1: him to agree, like he shouldn't be violent with me,

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Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be. But I was getting

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Speaker 1: really really anxious in having an increase in panic attacks

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Speaker 1: by this point because his behavior was getting more and

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Speaker 1: more unpredictable like that. I ended up coming back to

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Speaker 1: the house because my son had a soccer game, and

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Speaker 1: so there we go, just being normal couple again. We

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Speaker 1: get in the car, we go to the soccer game,

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Speaker 1: and we watch it. Then when we came back to

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Speaker 1: the house, I think he was trying to punish me.

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Speaker 1: So he took off for a while and left me

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Speaker 1: with the kids, and I figured, okay, whatever, let him

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Speaker 1: cool off and I'll see him later. That's when that

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Speaker 1: little nudge came at me again.

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Speaker 2: So she followed her gut.

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Speaker 1: I decided to look at his computer. There was no

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Speaker 1: search history, there was nothing, It was completely clean, and

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Speaker 1: I went into his recently deleted files and that's where

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Speaker 1: there was just a plethora of pictures the titles of

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Speaker 1: these things were pretty indicative of there being young women

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Speaker 1: on there, like little Miss Country USA. All different ages,

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Speaker 1: all different looks. It's not like he had one kink

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Speaker 1: or one fetish. It was so many people he had collected.

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Speaker 1: I clicked on one and it was this little girl

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Speaker 1: who I'd never seen before, don't recognize at all, standing

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Speaker 1: naked on a beach. She had a look on her

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Speaker 1: face like, this is not me being cute and playing

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Speaker 1: on the beach. No, it was inappropriate. So I actually

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Speaker 1: took a picture of her from the face up because

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Speaker 1: I just needed to prove to myself that I wasn't crazy.

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Speaker 1: And then I took a picture of the names of

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Speaker 1: the files, and then I shut it all down and

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Speaker 1: I put it all back. I called his brother, who

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Speaker 1: was a cop in Colorado and works with cases specifically

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Speaker 1: like this.

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Speaker 2: She was far away from friends and family.

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Speaker 1: I'm in Texas and my family live in California, so

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Speaker 1: I was completely frozen in fear, not knowing what to do.

201
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Speaker 1: And he said, do you think you can get the

202
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Speaker 1: laptop and take it with you? Hell no, I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if I can take me and take it

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Speaker 1: with me. Like there was no way. I was going

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Speaker 1: to go back into that lion's den and let him

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Speaker 1: know that I was on to him.

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Speaker 2: But she knew now, she knew what he was doing.

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Speaker 2: He had a large stash of photos. She had to

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Speaker 2: get herself and her young kids out of there. He

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Speaker 2: had a weapon, and he was a soldier. Now she

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Speaker 2: feared him.

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Speaker 1: He was probably gone for a couple of hours. So

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Speaker 1: when he came home and I am just soaked with tears,

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Speaker 1: he thought it was because of our fight that morning.

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Speaker 1: He said, you know, I'm really sorry. I hope you

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Speaker 1: can forgive me. Let's just move past this, and so

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Speaker 1: I played along. I said, yeah, you know, it really hurt,

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Speaker 1: but I'll get over it. I just want to go

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Speaker 1: through the kid's clothes because their dressers are overflowing, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take some of these clothes over to

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Speaker 1: the donation bin. So we're fine. It's fine. We actually hugged,

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Speaker 1: which was so cringey, but I was just trying to

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Speaker 1: get out of there safely.

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Speaker 2: The donating clothes of a ruse. She was packing clothes

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Speaker 2: for the kids, just enough for a few days. Aaron

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Speaker 2: offered to take the kids on a play date so

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Speaker 2: he could take a nap.

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Speaker 1: I'd packed the bag and I just got in the

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Speaker 1: car and I went to the airport. Is a very

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Speaker 1: small airport, so it's like one man friends the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And I think he could tell the look on my

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Speaker 1: face because he said, it's going to cost you like

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Speaker 1: seventeen hundred dollars to fly out tomorrow on the next flight,

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Speaker 1: and I said, I don't care, let's do it, let's go.

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Speaker 2: Aaron took the kids to a hotel near the airport

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Speaker 2: and stayed the night. When he called asking when they'd

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Speaker 2: be home.

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Speaker 1: I just told him like, oh, I'm at one of

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Speaker 1: my friend's house. The kids are watching a movie. You know,

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Speaker 1: we'll be home later. Oh, the kids fell asleep. I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to let them spend the night here and

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Speaker 1: we'll be home in the morning. And I think he

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Speaker 1: was content with that because then he could just continue

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Speaker 1: to drink and play video games and kind of do

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Speaker 1: his own thing, so he wasn't really alerted. He found

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Speaker 1: out that we were gone when I landed in Dallas

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Speaker 1: and when I got to California, and then that's when

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Speaker 1: I told him, you know, I know what's on your computer.

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Speaker 1: I know what's going on. I know that this isn't

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Speaker 1: going away, and I'm not coming home until I get

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Speaker 1: some answers on what's going on.

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Speaker 2: Arin returned to her hometown, where two older brothers and

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Speaker 2: her father lived and Joel's parents were close by. Two. Now,

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Speaker 2: with her family, she wouldn't have to face this alone.

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Speaker 1: I went straight to my brother because he was the

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Speaker 1: closest to me at that time, we were the closest

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Speaker 1: in age, and so I went to his house. I

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Speaker 1: called all the family over and I said, this is

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Speaker 1: what I found, this is what's going on, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know how to handle this situation and I need help.

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Speaker 1: My dad was like, let's think about this because if

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Speaker 1: he goes to jail or something, you're going to lose

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Speaker 1: all of your military benefits. Like I give a fuck

264
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Speaker 1: another question. They asked, well, how old are these girls?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't fucking matter.

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Speaker 2: Another one of her family members count her with words

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Speaker 2: like love the sinner, hate the sin, And I realized

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Speaker 2: there seems to be a kind of ignorance or impediment.

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Speaker 2: There are people who just can't understand that viewing this

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Speaker 2: material is egregious criminal behavior. It reminded me of what

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Speaker 2: John Huber said a few episodes back.

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Speaker 3: We were getting some pushback from federal judges of why

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Speaker 3: are you bringing these cases people looking at pictures? You know,

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Speaker 3: what's the big deal. We thought that was a misunderstanding

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Speaker 3: and that we need to communicate better to the judges

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Speaker 3: what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: But Erin understood perfectly.

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Speaker 1: If they had been seventeen or sixteen, it's still not consensual.

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Speaker 1: These kids are still affected for the rest of their life.

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Speaker 1: They didn't put their pictures up there. Somebody's abusing them,

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Speaker 1: so like, what were you going to say that it's okay?

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Speaker 2: Even with the pain? Aarin was able to think about

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Speaker 2: the long term consequences of reconnecting with him.

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Speaker 1: If I covered for him, if I didn't bring this up,

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Speaker 1: if I didn't tell anyone, but I knew that this

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Speaker 1: had happened, I would never feel okay with my kids

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00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,480
Speaker 1: having a slumber party. They could never have a birthday

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Speaker 1: party at our house. How could I be sure that

289
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:20,080
Speaker 1: he would perpetrate online but not perpetrate people in real life?

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Speaker 1: You know? How was I to know that it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: snowball into that, Like I would have to constantly be

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Speaker 1: on guard. I would have to take them to every

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Speaker 1: grocery trip. It's impossible, and that's not a life for

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Speaker 1: kids to have to live. So that wasn't reasonable.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't getting the family support she had hoped for,

296
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Speaker 2: but she did find someone who listened.

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Speaker 1: I saw my therapist from when I was fifteen years old.

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Speaker 1: I got a hold of her and she's a really

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Speaker 1: great therapist, and she made time to see me for

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Speaker 1: just a few minutes. She said, so, what are you

301
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Speaker 1: doing back in California? And I just bawled and broke

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00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,880
Speaker 1: down and told her. She said, if you don't report this,

303
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna report this. And I was like, oh fuck,

304
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Speaker 1: it's go time.

305
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,239
Speaker 2: She called the office where Joel worked and reported it.

306
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,280
Speaker 2: His colleague asked questions, one of them was how old

307
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Speaker 2: were the girls in the photos?

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Speaker 1: Like, maybe I don't have to report it if their

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00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,879
Speaker 1: birthday's coming up, you know, Like no, it's a big deal.

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Speaker 1: And he really kind of acted like maybe we'd gotten

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Speaker 1: in a fight. I was being a vindictive wife, Like

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Speaker 1: I'm just throwing these accusations out there.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to stomach the reaction from Joel's coworker. It's

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Speaker 2: another version of are you just being dramatic? This was difficult.

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Speaker 2: This was a loss for Erin.

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Speaker 1: Initially I felt like, yes, I'm doing the right thing,

317
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Speaker 1: but I feel like someone just cut off my right arm.

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Speaker 1: I just betrayed my husband, and I don't know what's

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Speaker 1: going on.

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Speaker 2: She held onto a little bit of hope that there

321
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 2: was a reason Joel had done this. Maybe it's a

322
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,040
Speaker 2: part of a secret mission. She couldn't know about.

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Speaker 1: What if there's some miraculous thing, like there's a reasonable

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00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 1: explanation for this. And I just completely betrayed my best friend,

325
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 1: you know, And now I'm shoving him out the door.

326
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Speaker 1: I'm pushing him off the cliff. It just fell awful.

327
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Speaker 1: I felt gas lit for a lot of years, thinking

328
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 1: not did I do the right thing. I know I

329
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,280
Speaker 1: did the right thing, but I just felt gas lit

330
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Speaker 1: because no one else could understand that, and I felt

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Speaker 1: really alone and miserable.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, Aaron wasn't finding any evidence of a

333
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 2: reasonable explanation. She was finding more suspicious activity.

334
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:52,400
Speaker 1: I found charges on his credit card to like weird websites,

335
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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, this is not good.

336
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,480
Speaker 1: He's been doing this for a while. He took some

337
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,360
Speaker 1: of the money and started paying off those credit cards

338
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,679
Speaker 1: were reporting him stolen to kind of like start covering

339
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,679
Speaker 1: his tracks, and I was like, Okay, now I know

340
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,119
Speaker 1: this is bad because your reaction.

341
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 2: Aaron's call to the military made its way to the

342
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,479
Speaker 2: Office of Special Investigations the OSI.

343
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 1: And then OSI facetimed me and asked me again what

344
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 1: I had seen and what I had heard, and they said, okay,

345
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,640
Speaker 1: well we are going to take care of this. We're

346
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 1: not going to scare him or anything. We're not going

347
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 1: to hurt him or anything.

348
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 2: Erin was upset, heartbroken and angry, but she still didn't

349
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 2: want Joel to be injured.

350
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 1: And then what actually happened the next day was that

351
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 1: they decided, because we didn't technically live on base, they

352
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 1: passed it over to the local police department, and the

353
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,359
Speaker 1: local police department decided that because he had all this

354
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 1: top secret security clearance, because he had experienced working with bombs,

355
00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:59,640
Speaker 1: that he was a high threat.

356
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 2: And the local police weren't taking any chances.

357
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 1: They went into the house with flashbangs, knocking down the door.

358
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 1: The detective told me he was sitting at the couch

359
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 1: with his hard drives, trying to erase everything, trying to

360
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 1: get rid of all of this evidence. So they went

361
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: in there and they arrested him, and they took all

362
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: the electronics. I'm really glad we weren't there for that.

363
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 2: Joel was arrested and made bail soon after, and he

364
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: was determined to see his wife and kids.

365
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,199
Speaker 1: I think he was trying to be nice to me,

366
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: hoping that I would renag or whatever, like pull back

367
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: on all of this stuff. And I said, we're not

368
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 1: going home until I fully understand what happened here, what's

369
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: going on, Like, you can't have any secrets from me,

370
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: So until you're ready to just spill your guts, we

371
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: are not going back there at all.

372
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: She fled Texas with just her children. She had left everything,

373
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,160
Speaker 2: her job, her clothes, the kid's toys.

374
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: He did come out at one time after I left,

375
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: to bring me some of my stuff and the kids

376
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 1: this stuff.

377
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 2: His visit to California went downhill quickly. Joel returned to

378
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 2: work in Texas.

379
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 1: He went back to work, and the military decided that

380
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: because he wasn't convicted, he wasn't found guilty yet, that

381
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 1: they would just put them in a different position. That's

382
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: what they call like pencil whipped, you know, basically like,

383
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 1: you're going to do paperwork over here for a while

384
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: until this settles down.

385
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 2: Aaron says that Joel wasn't contrite about downloading the images

386
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: he had collected.

387
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 1: He denied it. He was like, I'm not going to

388
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 1: get in trouble for anything. And then I mean, at

389
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: one point he admitted, yes, you know, there were pictures

390
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,880
Speaker 1: of kids, but it's art. It's considered art. I'll never

391
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: forget that. H was saying, like, I've checked all the

392
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: laws on this, and I know exactly what is considered

393
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: art and what is considered pornography, and there's nothing wrong

394
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: with what I'm doing. And I said there is, though,

395
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 1: because those kids are not even old enough to consent

396
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: to having their pictures taken. These kids are being abused,

397
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: and you are facilitating that, You're endorsing that. I don't

398
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: care what your excuse is. And I pretty much didn't

399
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: even bother to debate it with him anymore. I was

400
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 1: just so done.

401
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: Arin didn't return to Texas. Instead, she's stayed in California

402
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: with the kids, but she couldn't practice as a therapist

403
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 2: there because she wasn't licensed. She had to walk away

404
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: from an entire book of business, and.

405
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: I had left the whole client base. I had clients

406
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 1: waiting to have their therapy session, and I had to

407
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,719
Speaker 1: be like, there was this huge family emergency, like I

408
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: had to leave. I'm so sorry.

409
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 2: The family support that she was hoping for never materialized.

410
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 1: My brother said that his home isn't a place for children,

411
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: so we couldn't stay with him. My dad's house has

412
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: a lot of knick knacks everywhere, and he would have

413
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: let us stay with him, but it was just kind

414
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: of stressful with toddlers that want to touch everything, so

415
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 1: we were now homeless. We stayed in a trailer in

416
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: his backyard for a while, just so we could kind

417
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: of have our own space.

418
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 2: Her father helped her pick up the kids from school.

419
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: There were times her family pitched in, and she was

420
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 2: grateful for those moments, but they felt like favors, like

421
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 2: she owed something. Even though none of this was her fault,

422
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 2: she still felt like she should have been prepared or

423
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: seen it coming. It was these moments when she ached

424
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 2: for her mother while trying to survive in California. Aaron

425
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: kept tabs on Joel and the case.

426
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: He had to stay in Texas and keep working, and

427
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 1: he was three for the next three years. So for

428
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: three years I I had to live with this reputation

429
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: of maybe Erin's lying, maybe Erin's vindictive, maybe he did

430
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: something to her to make her make up all these lies.

431
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: Yes, it took nearly three years before the case went

432
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 2: to court, and it turned out Joel wasn't an art

433
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: collector after all.

434
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: He pled guilty to twenty five felony charges of child pornography.

435
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: He was sentenced to eight years, and he only did three.

436
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: He served his prison sentence in Texas, but once he

437
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: got out, he ended up moving back to California as well.

438
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: He got out last summer August of twenty twenty two

439
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: and moved in with his parents a mile away from me,

440
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: and my anxiety just came right back. I was not

441
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: on antidepressants, I was not on anxiety medication, but when

442
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: that ingredient is dropped back into my life, it just

443
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: threw me way out of whack again. And as I

444
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,239
Speaker 1: understood his parents to be excited about his release, I

445
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: was writing letters to the prison every year, say please

446
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: don't let him out, Please don't let him out. If

447
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: he does come out, he's going to want to come

448
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: to California at least keep him in Texas. Don't let

449
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: him near us. You know, we're not the victims, We're

450
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: not the people in the photos, but we are the victims.

451
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: We've been hurt by this too. And if you let

452
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: him out, he's going to come for my children, our children.

453
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 2: And like many parents in her position, she wonders, how

454
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: do you know what is safe? How do you measure rehabilitation?

455
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: When his parents were all excited and they were like, Aaron,

456
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: he's gone to church in prison, and he's made amends

457
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 1: and he's good with Jesus, and he's coming out and

458
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 1: he wants to be a father. This does not impress

459
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 1: me at all, because there's only a few things to

460
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: do in prison, go to church, work out, you know, like,

461
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: this is not rocket science to me. So while they're

462
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: very deeply ingrained in their religion, and I'm sure they

463
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: had a lot of faith in that, and they wanted

464
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: to believe that that would be enough, I said, show

465
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: me one scholarly article that says that he could be

466
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: fully recovered, Show me one. And nobody ever, would nobody

467
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: ever gave me any guidance, not even in school, not

468
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: even in therapy, like no guidance on how does someone

469
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: lay this down and what's the rate of recidivism on

470
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: this kind of thing.

471
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: But she found other parents to help fill the gap.

472
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 2: She couldn't afford to live on her own and was

473
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: forced to look for alternatives.

474
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: I've had a few really good roommates that totally understand

475
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: they're single parents. They've all been single parents, and we

476
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: just get it done. Somebody with their parents at school, Okay,

477
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: I'll go over there. I'm off work. I can go

478
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: pick them up. Somebody sick, Okay, well, I can take

479
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: the day off. I'm working from home, and I whatever

480
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: we needed. We were all there for each other, and

481
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: we still are. We still have really good relationships with

482
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: each other.

483
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: But she can't shake the deep disappointment she feels for

484
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 2: her own family.

485
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: Even when I was in between places, I asked my

486
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: other brother if I could come stay at his house

487
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: until my apartment was ready, and he charged me rents.

488
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 1: It was just really really hurtful, really worth confusing. I

489
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: could feel myself getting choked up. I don't know if

490
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: I ever did something to lose people's trust, or where

491
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: I got this reputation put on me. I mean, my

492
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: brothers were older, they were moved out, so it's not

493
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: like they saw me grow up. I've never been arrested.

494
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: I've never done anything like wildly wrong or hurtful to

495
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: other people in my life. So I I don't know

496
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: why they don't trust me. I don't know why they

497
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: don't believe me. And I have really really good kids.

498
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: They're polite, they can make their own breakfast, they can

499
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: assert their own rights, they can stand up for other people.

500
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: Like everybody raves about what great kids they are, and

501
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: yet I still feel like I'm not getting credit for

502
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: having raised them on my own. You know, when I

503
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: lost a contract in twenty nineteen, at the same time

504
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: Joel stopped paying child support completely, I went on welfare

505
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: and I didn't know how to navigate that system. I

506
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: know that's a really privileged thing to say, but no

507
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: one in my family had been on welfare before, so

508
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: I didn't even know where to start. And I cried

509
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: in the office. I said, I have a master's degree,

510
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: How am I here? How am I in this spot?

511
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: And what do I do? So I continue to create

512
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: my own private practice because I stopped trusting other people

513
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: to pay me what they said they would pay me,

514
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,719
Speaker 1: and I just pushed on living off of people's copays

515
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: because I didn't know how to build insurance at the

516
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: time either. So I was doing therapy for an hour

517
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: for ten dollars a session, fifteen dollars a session, you know,

518
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: like whatever, as long as I could just kind of

519
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: keep generating income. I couldn't afford groceries. So when I

520
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: told my dad and my brothers it's hard to even

521
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: buy groceries, they didn't do shit. The church gave me

522
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: a gift card for groceries. My village was there for me.

523
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: My friends were there for me. I don't know how

524
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: we had the same parents and they turned out so differently.

525
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: But I would have been right there for any of them.

526
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: I would have brought them in. I would have brought

527
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: their kids in no matter what. Sleep on my couch,

528
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: sleep on my floor, sleep in my bed. I'll sleep

529
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: somewhere else. I don't think that these are big, can

530
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: say russions to make for family.

531
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: Aaron is working to have Joel removed as a custodial

532
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: parent permanently. It's a long and difficult court battle. The

533
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 2: kids were very young when this happened, and she wants

534
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: them to continue on the successful trajectory that they're on.

535
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: The case is ongoing, but there was one way she

536
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: thought that they could all make a fresh start together.

537
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: I said to my kids, do you want us to

538
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: keep the same last name so we all match, or

539
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: do you want to change last names? Do you want

540
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: to separate yourself from what's going on in this side

541
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: of the family, because we have the opportunity to do

542
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: that now, or it's up to you to do later

543
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: on in life. And my son, who's ten, he suggested

544
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: that we change our last name to Romen because he

545
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: likes Romen. Such a kid idea, you know.

546
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: But all kidding aside. They all agreed on a new

547
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: last name, but we're keeping that private because Aaron has

548
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: worked hard for a fresh start.

549
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: Makes me feel like we don't belong to men anymore.

550
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: We're not doing this misogyny of women don't know what's

551
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: best for themselves or they don't know what's going on.

552
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: You know, we're not doing that. We're not doing the

553
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: maiden name, and we're not doing the married last name either,

554
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: because you can easily google that and then you're associated.

555
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: Now we have family pictures of just the three of us,

556
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: we feel like a solid family.

557
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: On the next episode of a trial.

558
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 4: He is a threat, a danger to everyone around him,

559
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 4: a child walking to or from school, a child at

560
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 4: a grocery store, or even a gas station. That thought

561
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 4: haunts me to my very core every moment of my life.

562
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 4: Now I have seen the devastation his actions have caused.

563
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team,

564
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: email us at Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. That's

565
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. To report a case

566
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: of child sexual exploitation, called the National Center for Missing

567
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: and Exploited Children's cyber tipline at one eight hundred the Lost.

568
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: If you or someone you know is worried about their

569
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to Stop

570
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: It Now dot org. In the United Kingdom go to

571
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: stop it Now dot org dot UK. These organizations can help.

572
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: We're grateful for your support, and one way to show

573
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts

574
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star

575
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: reviews go a long way. A big thank you to

576
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,

577
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

578
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 2: The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,

579
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, Written and produced

580
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Benfetterman an associate producer

581
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: Kristin Melcury. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck.

582
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: Special thanks to our talent Ashley Linton, a production assistant

583
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 2: Test Shields. Thank you to Erin for sharing her story

584
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: on this episode. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Alvecchio.

585
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: Trails theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by

586
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the

587
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,