Speaker 1: It's the Big Take from Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm West Gsova. Today, farmers are protesting rules that order
Speaker 1: them to slash emissions not from their tractors, from their cows.
Speaker 1: Our insatiable appetite for meat, eggs, cheese means there are
Speaker 1: billions of chickens and pigs and cows the world over.
Speaker 1: Animal agriculture is a leading contributor to greenhouse gas emissions
Speaker 1: and pollutants like ammonia and nitrogen. In Europe, governments are
Speaker 1: starting to crack down. They're demanding farms dramatically cut the
Speaker 1: size of their herds to meet environmental goals that could
Speaker 1: force thousands of farmers out of business. One place where
Speaker 1: anchor over this issue is spilled over is the Netherlands,
Speaker 1: where political tensions are so it threatens to overturn the government.
Speaker 1: So if you end up in a situation that force
Speaker 1: will be necessary. It's quite possible that there will be
Speaker 1: a big crisis within the Dutch government that could even
Speaker 1: Toplet to describe what's happening. Bloomberg reporter Diedrich Bazil joins
Speaker 1: me now from Amsterdam. Diedrich Bazil, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: being here. Hi s thanks for having we So you've
Speaker 1: been covering this conflict between dairy farmers in the Netherlands
Speaker 1: and the government. Can you just give us sort of
Speaker 1: a lay of the land of exactly what's happening there,
Speaker 1: If it's okay, I would like to start with asking
Speaker 1: you a question. Actually, sure, the Netherlands has about seventeen
Speaker 1: million people. But I was wondering, do you know how
Speaker 1: many chickens we have in this country? How many chickens?
Speaker 1: You know your right away, I have no idea how
Speaker 1: many chickens there are in the Netherlands. Now we have
Speaker 1: one hundred million chickens in the Netherlands, and on top
Speaker 1: of that we have eleven million picks and another four
Speaker 1: million cows. And that makes Netlands the country and with
Speaker 1: the highest density of farm farm animals in the whole
Speaker 1: of Europe. And yet it creates all kinds of problems,
Speaker 1: including the nitrogen crisis we're discussing today. One risk is
Speaker 1: the amount of nitrogen that is emitted. But another risk
Speaker 1: is what we've seen with Corona. When a lot of
Speaker 1: people and a lot of animals are together on the
Speaker 1: small piece of land, chances are that diseases are gonna
Speaker 1: jump from animals to humans. So we have this situation
Speaker 1: where nitrogen other pollutants are building up. The government is
Speaker 1: trying to meet climate pledges and looking to dairy farmers
Speaker 1: and other farmers to help with that by ordering them
Speaker 1: to reduce the emissions. Yeah, so what happened is this
Speaker 1: has been an issue for a couple of years in
Speaker 1: the Netherlands, but back in June, the government's announced a
Speaker 1: target to reduce their nitrogen the emittance, and the target
Speaker 1: was to reduce it by fifty in twenty thirty. When
Speaker 1: they gender this target, they also presented a map of
Speaker 1: the Netherlands and that map included the nature areas in
Speaker 1: the country, and we have we have several and surrounding
Speaker 1: those nature areas. Often the nitrogen had to be diminished
Speaker 1: by up to nine and that basically means that all
Speaker 1: farms that operate there have to close down. So that
Speaker 1: map and that target of cost a lot of commotion
Speaker 1: in the country. And since we have seen strikes from
Speaker 1: for farmers for a couple of months now and they
Speaker 1: have been blocking the streets. They have been going to
Speaker 1: the house of the minister to protest. They're starting fires
Speaker 1: on the Highway, that kind of stuff. But you can
Speaker 1: see why farmers would be so alarmed by this because
Speaker 1: they're essentially saying, we're going to be putting a certain
Speaker 1: number of people out of business who may have been
Speaker 1: farming for generations. Did they prepare farmers at all for
Speaker 1: this or was this something that was announced out of
Speaker 1: the blue. There are two sides to this story, like
Speaker 1: always think, One side is that these farmers, for years,
Speaker 1: and especially also the big companies behind those farmers, they
Speaker 1: have been polluting Dutch in nature and making money out
Speaker 1: of it. And the other side of the story is
Speaker 1: that political parties that are still in power today in
Speaker 1: the Netherlands have told those farmers for years that if
Speaker 1: they scale up, if they become bigger, and if they
Speaker 1: investigate in innovation, everything will be okay and everything will
Speaker 1: be fine. And yeah, that's not the way it is.
Speaker 1: The problem is just way more structural politicians just haven't
Speaker 1: been brave enough to tell the honest story to the farmers,
Speaker 1: and now they don't have a choice anymore, and the
Speaker 1: farmers feel betrayed. Can you describe some of the protests
Speaker 1: that happened over the summer, because some of them are
Speaker 1: quite large and pretty dramatic. Yes, so the thing is
Speaker 1: farmers they have tractors, so if you have a tractor,
Speaker 1: you can do a lot of things. They drove with
Speaker 1: the tractors to Parliament. They use them to block the highway,
Speaker 1: they use them to go to the house of the
Speaker 1: minister and straight away, when you have tractor, you basically
Speaker 1: have a weapon. It's difficult for the police to do
Speaker 1: something about it when the road is blocked with tractors.
Speaker 1: And they have been doing this for the for the
Speaker 1: past months. Even the cost Minister of Agriculture to step down,
Speaker 1: and we are we have a new now new one
Speaker 1: since a couple of weeks. And we also have a
Speaker 1: Ministry of Nitrogen, the first one ever in the history
Speaker 1: of the Netherlands and I think the world to be honest,
Speaker 1: this is fascinating. A Minister of nitrogen. What does that
Speaker 1: person do? Yes, so the Netherlands has I think it's
Speaker 1: the first country in the world to have a Minister
Speaker 1: of nitrogenial name is just Chris the Ball and yes,
Speaker 1: she basically is the Minister of bad news because her
Speaker 1: only task is to make sure that the target of
Speaker 1: fifty percent production by twenty thirty that's going to happen.
Speaker 1: And that's a terrible, terrible mission, I guess, because there's
Speaker 1: only bad news you can tell farmers because they have
Speaker 1: to close down their farms, they have to stop the
Speaker 1: business they have been running for several generations. What is
Speaker 1: it that the farmers are demanding they see the government's
Speaker 1: solution has been pretty severe. What is that they're coming
Speaker 1: back with in demanding or asking for? So the challenge
Speaker 1: of the government is to live up to their tar
Speaker 1: good and at the same time provide a future for
Speaker 1: for farming in the Netherlands, and that is that is
Speaker 1: a big challenge because the only way to reach this
Speaker 1: target is for farmers to close down. Not all, of course,
Speaker 1: but a big portion will have to quit their business.
Speaker 1: And these farmers are requesting basically either come with a
Speaker 1: decent way to buy us out with a lot of money,
Speaker 1: or give us other ways to continue our business what
Speaker 1: we have been doing for generations, and give us a
Speaker 1: roadmap what is allowed, what is possible. And that's also
Speaker 1: something that has been lacking up to this moment. It
Speaker 1: is unclear what farming is acceptable for the Netherlands within
Speaker 1: the targets they want to reach. Basically, so they want
Speaker 1: they want clarity. If these farms are forced to shut down,
Speaker 1: if others have to cut their herds in half or
Speaker 1: more in order to meet the requirements and somehow still
Speaker 1: stay in business, where will the milk, the meat, the cheese,
Speaker 1: everything else that those farms are now producing come from.
Speaker 1: Because I guess the assumption is that the demand for
Speaker 1: those products isn't going to drop. They'll just have to
Speaker 1: come from someplace else. What farmers have been saying is
Speaker 1: that we're feeding an eland, so what are you doing
Speaker 1: to us? That is true, but also not entirely true
Speaker 1: because I think about seventy of what is produced in
Speaker 1: the Netherlands is for export, and els is the second
Speaker 1: biggest export or in the world when it comes to
Speaker 1: agricultural product. If they will have to minimize their their output,
Speaker 1: then someone else in the world as an opportunity to
Speaker 1: to fill the gap. Basically, what would that mean for
Speaker 1: the economy of the Netherlands to lose those exports? And
Speaker 1: that's actually a very interesting question because the strange thing
Speaker 1: is that we're the second biggest exporter of agriculture products
Speaker 1: in the world. But there's some important context there because
Speaker 1: if you look at how big part it is of
Speaker 1: the Dutch GDPs, only one point four percent. Like, it's
Speaker 1: not nothing, but it's also not very it's not also
Speaker 1: not major. One element is important here is that those
Speaker 1: numbers of exporting products are inflated a little bit because
Speaker 1: of what we call the Rotterdam effect. In Rododama city
Speaker 1: and Atlands we have the port of Rododam, which is
Speaker 1: the biggest of Europe, and a lot of products that
Speaker 1: are produced in the heartlands of Europe are shipped to
Speaker 1: the rest of the world via Roddam and often the
Speaker 1: those products end up on the balance sheet of Dutch
Speaker 1: export By the end. It's it's not that big of
Speaker 1: a deal for the Dutch economy. Will hurt, but I
Speaker 1: don't think that will be the biggest problem. One interesting
Speaker 1: thing about the Netherlands is how progressive a lot of
Speaker 1: the agriculture is. There's you know, enormous fields of greenhouses
Speaker 1: where lettuce, tomatoes, other things are grown, and yet we
Speaker 1: have on the other side this traditional agriculture which is
Speaker 1: very polluting. Is there conflict between those two different sort
Speaker 1: of visions of farming and agriculture in the country. This
Speaker 1: is an argument of those same farms in thelands. They
Speaker 1: say like, look, we're the most enoughtive farmers in the world.
Speaker 1: Why if you're going to close down farms, while will
Speaker 1: you close on our farms? And I think if there
Speaker 1: is a future for the Dutch agriculture sector, it lies
Speaker 1: in the innovation. We have the Wagoning University which is
Speaker 1: at the forefront of research when it comes to agriculture.
Speaker 1: So I think the nets will still be able to
Speaker 1: make a lot of money with this innovation, but perhaps
Speaker 1: they shouldn't produce everything themselves in their own country. So
Speaker 1: tensions are really high still between farmers and the government.
Speaker 1: How do you see this playing out? What is the solution?
Speaker 1: Obviously some politicians are going to want to be responsive
Speaker 1: to farmers who vote, and yet they have to balance
Speaker 1: that against the requirements of climate change. Where do you
Speaker 1: see this heading? In June, the target was presented of
Speaker 1: OFT reduction by twenty thirty and only last week the
Speaker 1: government presented the buy out plan. What does that mean?
Speaker 1: It means that as a farmer you can say high government,
Speaker 1: please buy my farm in a way to reach the targets.
Speaker 1: And not all details are known at the moment, but
Speaker 1: what it seems to be is that they're going to
Speaker 1: offer one hundred and twenty percent of the current market
Speaker 1: value of their company or their lens. How are farmers
Speaker 1: responding to the bio plan. Are they signing up? Do
Speaker 1: you think that many of them will take this deal?
Speaker 1: Mixed signals from the farmers. Some are very happy. There's
Speaker 1: also quite some farmers that already wanted to quit their
Speaker 1: business and not just waiting for a good offer basically.
Speaker 1: But you also have those big farms which are just
Speaker 1: making lots of money producing their products, and those are
Speaker 1: also the big polluters and if they continue their business
Speaker 1: they can make way more money than if they would
Speaker 1: sell it today. I think those are the essential farms
Speaker 1: are not not that keen to go along with the split.
Speaker 1: The hopes of the government and the political party at
Speaker 1: the moment is that this is voluntary buio plan will
Speaker 1: do the trick, and if it doesn't, then you at
Speaker 1: some points have to get to a place where you're
Speaker 1: going to use force, and that is a bridge many
Speaker 1: political parties don't want to across at this moment. Dutch
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Margaret that did say that it could happen
Speaker 1: at some point that you need force when you say forest,
Speaker 1: you mean going in and actually shutting down the farms.
Speaker 1: That would be a very extreme move. Yeah, that would
Speaker 1: be in a very extreme move. But if you if
Speaker 1: you listen to the specialist, it's it's quite likely because
Speaker 1: it's not the case that if half of the farmers
Speaker 1: will quit that you reach the tegus. It's also specific
Speaker 1: farms that are close to a very vulnerable nature reserves.
Speaker 1: Those farms have to close down and if those farms
Speaker 1: decide not to, then force will be necessary. And the
Speaker 1: Dutch government currently consists out of four parties, it's a
Speaker 1: coalition government and at least one party is very much
Speaker 1: opposed using force because many of their voters are farmers.
Speaker 1: So if you end up in a situation that force
Speaker 1: will be necessary, it's quite possible that there will be
Speaker 1: a big crisis within the Dutch government that could even
Speaker 1: topple it. And who knows what will happen after that.
Speaker 1: It's a very sensitive topic and it will it will
Speaker 1: stay difficult for question time. Dietrich Brazil, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for being here. Thanks West for having me. Was a
Speaker 1: pleasant occasion. It's not just the Netherlands where this political
Speaker 1: and economic battle over agriculture is playing out more on
Speaker 1: that when we return, the tensions we're seeing in the
Speaker 1: Netherlands are also playing out in other countries around the world.
Speaker 1: To talk about that, Agne Esca de Susa joins me
Speaker 1: from London. She is a food reporter and also known
Speaker 1: affectionately as Bloomberg's foods are Aggie. Thanks for being here,
Speaker 1: Thank you for having us. When we talk about the
Speaker 1: biggest pollutants, it's often oil or coal, but as we
Speaker 1: just heard from Dietrich, the Netherlands is zeroing in on
Speaker 1: agricultural pollutants. In in your own reporting, you describe how
Speaker 1: other countries in Europe and around the world are also
Speaker 1: targeting agriculture. Why is this happening now? Farming and agriculture
Speaker 1: is still relatively little understood driver of climate change. Is
Speaker 1: more effort and more understanding. I think the public opinion
Speaker 1: is changing when it comes to impact of farming on
Speaker 1: the environment. It's actually pretty big. Agriculture itself accounts for
Speaker 1: a quarter of global greenhouse gas emissions. Growing your food,
Speaker 1: but then also transporting the food all the way to retailers,
Speaker 1: that actually accounts for about a third of global greenhouse
Speaker 1: gas emissions. So it's actually substantial and and just looking
Speaker 1: at livestock, livestock is a major driver other missions of
Speaker 1: the land, usage of water, consumption of so many different
Speaker 1: aspects and cleaning up agriculture cannot happen without tackling the
Speaker 1: environmental footprint of livestock. And what exactly is it about
Speaker 1: live style that is so polluting. The environmental footprint of
Speaker 1: life stock is so multidimensional. First and foremost, I think
Speaker 1: the most important thing when it comes to livestock is
Speaker 1: the fact that livestock emit methane. It's a really powerful gas,
Speaker 1: and live stock is actually a major source of methane emissions.
Speaker 1: This happens through a so called enteric fermentation. Is basically
Speaker 1: means that the digestive system of cattle of sheep causes
Speaker 1: microbes inside stomachs of of of an animals to actually
Speaker 1: release methane. They're gassy, they're gassy animals. They're gassy, they're gases,
Speaker 1: so they're burp out, they burp out methane. Their manure,
Speaker 1: their urine pollutes soil. You know, it's a source of
Speaker 1: nitrogen oxide. That's another polluting factor. And on top of it,
Speaker 1: they eat a lot of crop, so you need to
Speaker 1: actually use so much more land in order to grow
Speaker 1: a crop for them. The man management is not there yet.
Speaker 1: More needs to be done in order to figure out
Speaker 1: the way to start the manure but actually converted into biomass,
Speaker 1: converted into energy. I wanted to ask you now about
Speaker 1: the political pressure that is building in a lot of countries,
Speaker 1: especially in Europe, when it comes to governments trying to
Speaker 1: cut their greenhouse gas emissions and are now looking at
Speaker 1: farmers to do that. What is happening is that after many, many,
Speaker 1: many years of seeing a lot of focus on fossil fuels,
Speaker 1: it seems like there is more attention right now on
Speaker 1: farming in general. What we're seeing is that more governments
Speaker 1: around the world are introducing our furthering policies that are
Speaker 1: focused on agriculture and actually making agriculture most sustain the
Speaker 1: all and trying to address emissions from livestock. Certainly more
Speaker 1: should be done, but there are signs that they are
Speaker 1: moving in that direction. We've had so far, I think
Speaker 1: at least one hundred fifty countries signing up to the
Speaker 1: Methane Pledge. The Methane Pledge was the major push at
Speaker 1: Glasgow at COP twenty six, there was last year's cap conference.
Speaker 1: Since then, so many more countries have joined that pledge.
Speaker 1: So at least one hundred fifty countries have pledged to
Speaker 1: cut methane emissions by thirty pc by the end of
Speaker 1: the decade. This is a very general pledge, so it
Speaker 1: includes all sorts of sectors, and particularly there's been a
Speaker 1: focus on oil and gas. There is an understanding that
Speaker 1: in some countries agriculture will need to be tackled. There
Speaker 1: are some countries where livestock commissions and agriculture emissions account
Speaker 1: for a large share of the total country footprint. So
Speaker 1: for example, take New Zealand. Half of New zealand carbon
Speaker 1: emissions come from agriculture. That is a very big chunk
Speaker 1: of emissions. So what's going to happen is that countries
Speaker 1: will have to determine how they're gonna cut their methane emissions.
Speaker 1: So if if the countries that were agriculture is a
Speaker 1: huge part of the problem, they will need to tackle it.
Speaker 1: And we're all already seeing some of those big producers
Speaker 1: trying to and introducing targets for farming. How have they
Speaker 1: responded to these restrictions that the government is trying to impose.
Speaker 1: So it depends on the country, but generally farmers are nervous.
Speaker 1: In some instances they feel they are being singled out unfairly.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they can feel confused as to actually what's going
Speaker 1: to happen. I think in several countries, like for example,
Speaker 1: in New Zealand in the Netherlands, when it comes to
Speaker 1: actually nitrogen emissions and nitrogen reduction, land farmers know and
Speaker 1: have been it's quite clear that farmers will need to
Speaker 1: reduce their herd size, and they feel that that will
Speaker 1: lead to the loss of business, the loss of profitability.
Speaker 1: They will have to change the way they've been doing things,
Speaker 1: and they feel the changes coming. But it's also you
Speaker 1: know that they're producing food. You have to put yourself
Speaker 1: in the shoes of those farmers. They've been farmers their
Speaker 1: entire lifetime. Maybe they grew up in a farming family.
Speaker 1: You know, they've been farming for generations. Suddenly they need
Speaker 1: to change this. Suddenly a government policy, a government measure
Speaker 1: tells them, well, it's time. You know, you're gonna have
Speaker 1: to cull back on your herds. You might actually have
Speaker 1: to shut down your business, go and move to the
Speaker 1: city and do something else. In a way, it feels
Speaker 1: like they're gonna have to be approoted, and it's it's
Speaker 1: a huge confusion as well as to huge uncertainty, huge confusion,
Speaker 1: feeling of the lack of appreciation of for what they do.
Speaker 1: They essentially feel under siege, under siege from a government,
Speaker 1: understiege from vegans suddenly telling everyone it less meat. It's
Speaker 1: a lot to take on. At the same time, you know,
Speaker 1: they're told to cut back on pesticides, cut back on fertilizers.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to be taxed more. So suddenly there's
Speaker 1: just a lot to take on. The world is changing.
Speaker 1: At the same time, they're being affected by the consequence
Speaker 1: by the climate change itself. We've had years of drought,
Speaker 1: we've had extreme weather and that's affecting their crops. It
Speaker 1: is affecting their livestock, and so they're in a way,
Speaker 1: they're pummeled. They're you know, being struck from both sides.
Speaker 1: And they've been protesting, some of them. Is that right,
Speaker 1: I mean kind of very dramatic protests to show politicians
Speaker 1: how they're feeling. Yes, and two fields. Has been a
Speaker 1: year of protests farm process, at least in Europe. What
Speaker 1: is quite unique about two is first and foremost, what
Speaker 1: we so earlier this year is the fact that the
Speaker 1: energy and fertilizer costs are on the rise. That squeezing
Speaker 1: farmer margins. At the same time, they don't feel they're
Speaker 1: being paid enough for the food they produce. And then
Speaker 1: it's the climate policies that are coming as governments introduce them.
Speaker 1: It feels like climb policies are becoming one more sticking
Speaker 1: topic factor when it comes to the farmer discontent. It's
Speaker 1: a relatively new thing and we expect to see more
Speaker 1: of it. We see a lot of politicians sort of
Speaker 1: jumping on this bandwagon against green policies in order to
Speaker 1: curry favor with farmers. There are millions of farmers out
Speaker 1: there and very often they are a strong electorate that
Speaker 1: politicians have to count with them. They need to respond
Speaker 1: to their needs because they know they may lose votes.
Speaker 1: They also have in several countries they lobbying is strong.
Speaker 1: In a way, you could argue that that may be
Speaker 1: something that could put breaks on the introduction of climate
Speaker 1: policies on time and at scale, and it feels like
Speaker 1: governments are really weighing it carefully. The sentiment of farmers
Speaker 1: are feeling actually has been to an extent culptured by
Speaker 1: right wing groups by a movement opposing vaccinations and COVID restrictions.
Speaker 1: We even so former US President Donald Trump speaking out
Speaker 1: on the issue of farmers and on the protests, and
Speaker 1: he did say that farmers in the Netherlands, of all places,
Speaker 1: are courageously opposing the climate tyranny of the Dutch government.
Speaker 1: And as we speak, farmers in the Netherlands, of all places,
Speaker 1: are courageously opposing the climate tyranny of the Dutch government.
Speaker 1: Can you believe this? We do see this argument being
Speaker 1: furthered by conspiracy theory by extreme right as well, that
Speaker 1: climate policies will lead to a redaction of food supplies,
Speaker 1: that it may actually cause shortages, if not famine. You know,
Speaker 1: you see farmers repeating that argument as well. It does
Speaker 1: appeal to primordial fears in a way. I mean, we're
Speaker 1: all concerned about food and people are struggling with food inflation,
Speaker 1: with the cost of living crisis. To actually see that, wow,
Speaker 1: you know, my food bill is going to go up
Speaker 1: even more if my government actually introduces climate policy and
Speaker 1: we're going to produce less food and the prices are
Speaker 1: going to go up. I mean that really appeals to
Speaker 1: people's fears. We need to pay attention to the populist argument.
Speaker 1: It's such an easy argument to make. You know, there's
Speaker 1: that hashtag. There are social media hashtags out there. No farmers,
Speaker 1: no food farmers are using that hashtag, but anti vaxers
Speaker 1: are using that hashtag and we're seeing it. You know,
Speaker 1: from what I read as well, in terms of their claims,
Speaker 1: they're very, very simplistic, and they're just very it's so
Speaker 1: much more complicated than that, but it's it's very catchy
Speaker 1: when we come back, what do you, if anything can
Speaker 1: be done to fix this mess? You've spelled out how
Speaker 1: big a problem this is, and we've heard the very
Speaker 1: dramatic example from the Netherlands of how deeply people feel
Speaker 1: about this, and so I guess all that raises the
Speaker 1: question of what can be done about this? What is
Speaker 1: the solution here? Tackling pollution from agriculture and making agriculture, farming,
Speaker 1: and the food systems more sustainable is a multidimensional problem.
Speaker 1: When it comes to nitrogen, better manure management, trying to
Speaker 1: find ways of converting converting manure into our st of
Speaker 1: energy when we look at meta and emissions, there are
Speaker 1: new solutions coming up. For example, feed supplements that are
Speaker 1: supposed to reduce the work of microbes responsible for the submission,
Speaker 1: in other words, make them less gassy. Yes, make them
Speaker 1: less gassy. However, these solutions are still at early stages
Speaker 1: and there's no silver bullet for cutting those emissions altogether.
Speaker 1: It has to be a holistic approach from an economic perspective.
Speaker 1: If these regulations going to affect and dairy farmers have
Speaker 1: to cut the size of their herds, that in itself
Speaker 1: will reduce emissions. I guess what then happens is dairy
Speaker 1: products of all kinds, the prices rise, and that decreases demand.
Speaker 1: Because really, aren't we looking at a problem that people
Speaker 1: want this? People want milk, they want cheese, they want meat,
Speaker 1: and as long as there's a demand for it, people
Speaker 1: are going to want to produce it, and then it
Speaker 1: becomes just a matter of how much does it cost. Currently,
Speaker 1: we still produce more food than we consume. What needs
Speaker 1: to change is actually distribution of food, the fact that
Speaker 1: we waste so much food. About a third of food
Speaker 1: produced around the world is being wasted or lost at
Speaker 1: the harvest level, So this is beyond livestock but I
Speaker 1: think it's a very important point. If we were to,
Speaker 1: in theory, reduce food waste, we would end up getting
Speaker 1: more food. So I think, you know, we could speculate
Speaker 1: on what it will do to prices, but none of
Speaker 1: those climate policies need to be kind of taken in isolation.
Speaker 1: There's a variety of solutions. There's a variety of policies
Speaker 1: that can be implemented, so reducing food waste would be
Speaker 1: one of them. Coming up with alternative proteins, yes, we
Speaker 1: do need to acknowledge, and your absolutely right, people want
Speaker 1: to eat that stuff. People like cheese. They love cheese,
Speaker 1: you know, and and they like their steak. So yes,
Speaker 1: there should be a push towards healthier, more sustainable diets,
Speaker 1: encouraging people to cut back on meat, especially in the
Speaker 1: developed world. But at the same time we need to
Speaker 1: come up with solutions, come up with new alternative sources
Speaker 1: of protein, and those are being developed right now. Precision
Speaker 1: fermentation is really capturing attention, so producing cow free milk
Speaker 1: or cheese or protein, and all these things are kind
Speaker 1: of new and in development, and there's a long process
Speaker 1: to get people to accept them over time, and until
Speaker 1: then you have a lot of these farmers who are
Speaker 1: pretty angry. I suppose it's not that different from other
Speaker 1: industries that change over time. The question is how do
Speaker 1: you engage farmers, how do you actually bring them on
Speaker 1: board in order to support that transition in agriculture. New
Speaker 1: industries and new food sources will require will still require agriculture,
Speaker 1: will still require farmers to actually produce for them. I
Speaker 1: think the role of governments is to policemakers is to
Speaker 1: figure out the ways of bringing farmers on on board
Speaker 1: so that they become part of those solutions as well.
Speaker 1: So the process when it comes to climate policies supporting
Speaker 1: new sources of food needs to be inclusive of farmers.
Speaker 1: This is something that climate policy makers need to be
Speaker 1: thinking about. One place we haven't talked about is one
Speaker 1: of the world's biggest agriculture biggest live stock market, which
Speaker 1: is the US. Also one of the biggest emitters of
Speaker 1: agricultural pollutants, and yet we haven't seen these kinds of
Speaker 1: protests in the US. Yes, it's it's it's quite interesting
Speaker 1: what is happening in the US that have been voices
Speaker 1: out of the US look into Dutch farmers as an
Speaker 1: example of why governments shouldn't get involved. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, when we look at the US climate policies
Speaker 1: as well and what they want to do with livestock,
Speaker 1: that we haven't really seen much action, that the US
Speaker 1: isn't really cracking down on farmers in a way that
Speaker 1: these other countries are. Yeah, that's right. So we haven't
Speaker 1: seen a push to reduce, for example, demand for meat.
Speaker 1: We haven't seen a push to slash emissions from life
Speaker 1: stock the same way as we see in other producing powerhouses.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, we do have some positive
Speaker 1: examples of where farmers can get involved, and one such
Speaker 1: example is actually regenerative agriculture. It's where the US arguably
Speaker 1: is leading the way. And what is that. What is
Speaker 1: regenerative agriculture, So it's basically involving farmers in carbon trading.
Speaker 1: Farmers can earn carbon credits essentially, so they can actually
Speaker 1: earn money for their sustainable practices, so there's incentives for
Speaker 1: farmers to do things better. So they're incentive financial incentives
Speaker 1: for farmers to do things better. And that still a
Speaker 1: nascent market, but we are seeing more and more companies
Speaker 1: trying to support those practices as well and support the
Speaker 1: farmers who supplied to them, and we're seeing more farmers
Speaker 1: actually getting involved. It's an example of farmers actually being
Speaker 1: on board the sustainability ship. Agni Esca de Susa thanks
Speaker 1: so much for joining me today. Thank you very much
Speaker 1: for having me. You can read more of Agnesca de
Speaker 1: Susas and Detrich bass Seals reporting at Bloomberg dot com.
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