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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us

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Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, the

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, and the Bloomberg Business happ We're listening

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Speaker 1: on demand wherever you get your podcast. We do have

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Speaker 1: new information on the indictment now facing Donald Trump in Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg News reporting the former president will be arraigned on

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Speaker 1: Tuesday at the New York State Supreme Court House in

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Speaker 1: Lower Manhattan. Now we've added a time two fifteen pm.

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Speaker 1: He will enter a plea of not guilty. Trump attorney

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Speaker 1: Joe Tacopina on ABC's Good Morning America. Understand, they're gonna

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Speaker 1: be closing off blocks around the courthouse, shutting down the courthouse.

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Speaker 1: You know. We'll go in there and we'll proceed to

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Speaker 1: see a judge at some point plead dot guilty, start

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Speaker 1: talking about filing motions, which we will do immediately and

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Speaker 1: very aggressively. Regarding the legal viability of this case, Tacopeda

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Speaker 1: says his client was surprised by the news last night.

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Speaker 1: Even though Donald Trump predicted he would be arrested in

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Speaker 1: this case almost two weeks ago. He predicted his own

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Speaker 1: arrest based on a leak George that had happened about

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Speaker 1: three weeks ago, where there was a law enforcement meeting

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Speaker 1: that was happening the day before to go through the

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Speaker 1: logistics of an arrayment. So he predicted based on rumors

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Speaker 1: and leaks and whatnot. And this case has been permeated

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Speaker 1: with rumors and leaks. President Biden chose not to comment

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Speaker 1: on the case when he was asked on his way

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Speaker 1: out of the White House this morning country for the indictment.

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Speaker 1: I'm no comment on that, the indictment. No, I'm not

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Speaker 1: done the park about Trumpton that I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. That's been consistent. Of course, we heard

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Speaker 1: the same from the Press Office. Don't expect the White

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Speaker 1: House to weigh in. You better believe, though Michael Cohen

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Speaker 1: is Donald Trump's former lawyer and former fixer who sort

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Speaker 1: of jail time for making the payments to Storey Daniel,

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Speaker 1: he is about to get a taste of what I

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Speaker 1: went through, and I promise you it's not fun. Trump's

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Speaker 1: former Vice president of Mike Pence, was asked about it

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Speaker 1: last evening on CNN. Well, I think the unprecedented indictment

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Speaker 1: of a former president of the United States on a

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Speaker 1: campaign finance issue is an outrage, and it appears to

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Speaker 1: millions of Americans mean nothing more than a political prosecution

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Speaker 1: that's driven by a prosecutor who literally ran for office

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Speaker 1: on the pledge to indict the former president. That's where

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Speaker 1: we begin with Stephanie Murphy, the former congresswoman from Florida

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Speaker 1: who served on the January six Committee, is with us

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Speaker 1: now on Bloomberg Radio. Congress Woman, thanks for your time.

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Speaker 1: It's good to have you back. Was it right for

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Speaker 1: the Manhattan DA to make history with this case in

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Speaker 1: indicting a former president? Well, let's be really clear that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just the Manhattan DA. It was actually a

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Speaker 1: grand jury that, when presented with the information, thought that

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Speaker 1: there might be something criminal that had happened here and

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Speaker 1: proceeded with the charges. So I know there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of focus on the DA, but this is working through

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Speaker 1: the system the way that the American judicial system is

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Speaker 1: supposed to work. And those folks saw something that they

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Speaker 1: got needed further examination, and the former president is going

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Speaker 1: to have an opportunity to have a jury of his

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Speaker 1: peers and you have due process through this system. Well, Tacopina,

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Speaker 1: and you look you've heard the reaction from your former

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Speaker 1: Republican colleagues in the House. They say that not only

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Speaker 1: is this unprecedented, it destroys the rule of law, that

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Speaker 1: this case, they see not rising to the level of indictment,

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Speaker 1: was not the way to break precedent, to set history

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Speaker 1: and indicting a former president, knowing that we have several

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Speaker 1: other cases out there that folks might feel differently about

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Speaker 1: allegedly attempting to overturn the election the material that you

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Speaker 1: dealt with, for instance, on the January sixth committee, Is

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Speaker 1: this the case to crack the seal on this? You know,

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Speaker 1: I think that there are a lot of there's a

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Speaker 1: lot more information that needs to be seen. None of

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Speaker 1: us have actually seen what the indictment says. But what

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Speaker 1: I will say is that I believe in our judicial system,

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Speaker 1: and I find it offensive that there are people who,

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Speaker 1: for partisan purposes, are attacking our judicial system. We don't

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Speaker 1: need one other institution of the American government that is

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Speaker 1: undermined by the very leaders that we've elected. You make

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Speaker 1: a great point, it's not just the DA and we

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Speaker 1: continue to hear the sorost dog whistle describing him, but

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Speaker 1: this was in fact a grand jury, CNN reporting, and

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Speaker 1: it was something to hear last night. We could have

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Speaker 1: over thirty counts involved here. The idea, Stephanie, is that

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Speaker 1: there could be much more than Michael Cohen's testimony at hand,

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Speaker 1: that there was other evidence that he was looking at.

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Speaker 1: Is that your feel at the stage of the game,

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm waiting to get the facts, and I

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Speaker 1: think that we have to recognize that the grand jury

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Speaker 1: actually has all of that information and they're moving forward

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Speaker 1: based on that information. But you know, we would be

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Speaker 1: naive to not acknowledge that there is also a public

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Speaker 1: perception and a political strategy issue and perspective here in

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Speaker 1: addition to just the courts and the judicial system doing

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Speaker 1: what they're doing. And I think that's what makes this

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Speaker 1: news worthy, is that you know, there are implications from

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Speaker 1: a political and a public perspective, but those things shouldn't

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Speaker 1: stop our system from holding people to account, right like,

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Speaker 1: nobody should be above the law, no matter what kind

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Speaker 1: of public outrage or political consequences exist. Yeah, look, we

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Speaker 1: just played Michael Cohen reacting to this. He did jail

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Speaker 1: time for this, and a lot of people think that

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Speaker 1: that should be played out equally here that you know,

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Speaker 1: quote unquote, no one is above the law. But Congresswoman,

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Speaker 1: how does this affect the other case against him? Do

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Speaker 1: you have a sense of that, knowing that we have

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Speaker 1: the special counsel here in Washington, the grand jury in

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Speaker 1: Fulton County, or are these all separate entities that could

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Speaker 1: all do whatever they want on their own time. I

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Speaker 1: think they need to all be separate entities because they

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Speaker 1: are all separate issues, and nobody should proceed in this

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Speaker 1: way unless they have a case that they think can prevail.

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Speaker 1: Because the reality is that whenever folks try to swing

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Speaker 1: at the former president and if they miss, they just

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Speaker 1: make him stronger. And I think it's important that we

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Speaker 1: have systems that actually move on fact and evidence and

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Speaker 1: move forward with the ability to actually see these cases

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Speaker 1: to their rightful end as opposed to being political mechanisms.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the reaction that we've

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Speaker 1: heard from members of Congress. Of course, a lot of

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Speaker 1: it predictable. We're hearing from, you know, in many cases,

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Speaker 1: extremes on the left and the right who have predetermined ideas. Here,

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Speaker 1: we'll start with the Democrats. Maxine Waters was essentially celebrating this.

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Speaker 1: It's about time exclamation point on Twitter. Is that helpful

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Speaker 1: or does that actually create the potential for some blowback

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Speaker 1: on the Democratic Party If it looks like this, this

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Speaker 1: is a celebration. We shouldn't neither celebrate or mourn, right

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Speaker 1: it Just doing either further divides this country at a

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Speaker 1: time when we are already quite divided. What we need

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Speaker 1: to do is to believe in our system and believe

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Speaker 1: that nobody is above the law and if there was

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Speaker 1: a crime that was committed, the person whoever they are,

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Speaker 1: will behold held to account, and if they weren't, they'll

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Speaker 1: have an opportunity for due process. I think there's we're

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Speaker 1: losing faith in our institutions that if you look at polling,

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Speaker 1: the American people are losing faith in their institutions. And

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Speaker 1: it's one thing to lose faith in Congress. It's a

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Speaker 1: totally different thing to lose faith in our judicial system too.

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Speaker 1: And so it's really important that people who are elected

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Speaker 1: use their words wisely and understand that their rhetoric has consequences,

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Speaker 1: and they should flip the coin right and think to

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Speaker 1: themselves if it was somebody of their own party, would

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Speaker 1: they respond or behave the way that they are in

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Speaker 1: this case. Well, on the other side of the aisle,

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Speaker 1: we heard from the Speaker himself. Kevin McCarthy tweets, Alvin

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Speaker 1: Bragg is irreparably damaged our country in an attempt to

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Speaker 1: interfere in our presidential election. He goes on to write

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Speaker 1: from there, But that's a lot just to start that

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Speaker 1: one line. Irreparable damage interference with an election? How do

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Speaker 1: you respond to that? You know that is Speaker mccayy

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Speaker 1: not understanding our judicial system, because it isn't just about

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Speaker 1: the DA The folks who decided to move forward with

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Speaker 1: this with the indictment was a grand jury. This is

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Speaker 1: the way our country is set up. You have a

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Speaker 1: grand jury, you have an opportunity to file to dismiss,

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Speaker 1: you have multiple opportunities of due process throughout this, and

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Speaker 1: then eventually you get tried before a jury of your peers.

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Speaker 1: And so for him to attack a person individually is

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Speaker 1: irresponsible because we have seen what has happened when people

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Speaker 1: who are in elected positions target individual people. I served

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Speaker 1: on the January sixth Committee. I know that way too. Well. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's get into that for a moment. There are barricades

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Speaker 1: up in front of Capitol Hill, where you used to

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Speaker 1: work until a short time ago. There are barricades up

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Speaker 1: in front of the courthouse in New York. We haven't

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Speaker 1: actually seen organized at least protests breakout the one that

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Speaker 1: we were following in New York earlier this week or

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Speaker 1: I guess it was last week. There are more reporters

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Speaker 1: showed up than protesters. Do you feel like this is

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Speaker 1: a real threat of violence right now? I certainly hope

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Speaker 1: it is not, because what we saw in January sixth

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Speaker 1: was that there are a lot of people who believed

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Speaker 1: powerful people in this country. They believed the lies that

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Speaker 1: these powerful people spread, and they acted on them, and

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Speaker 1: now their lives are you know, they are changed irreparably.

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Speaker 1: They and I listened to so many testimonies where they're like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know this person told me this, I believe them.

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Speaker 1: I showed up, I did these things, and now my

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Speaker 1: life is ruined and I don't see anybody else experiencing

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Speaker 1: the consequences that I am. Right, you wonder, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is the this is the problem here is that

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who are in powerful

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Speaker 1: positions who are not being very responsible about their platform

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Speaker 1: and what they are telling people, and there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of Americans who believe them and will act on it,

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Speaker 1: and it will result in devastating consequences for those average Americans,

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Speaker 1: but not for the powerful people. Well, I wonder if

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Speaker 1: the events of January six and the hundreds of people

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Speaker 1: who were jailed for attacking the capital informs what's happening now.

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Speaker 1: The law enforcement officials we've spoken with say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're more worried about a lone wolf, for instance, than

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Speaker 1: an actual organized attack like we saw in January sixth?

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Speaker 1: Is that your fear a congresswoman, as someone who served

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Speaker 1: on the committee, do you feel safe? Do you fear

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Speaker 1: for your own safety? You know, my step and I

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Speaker 1: always used to sort of gallows humor joke about we

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Speaker 1: weren't worried about the people who called us a hundred

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Speaker 1: times to tell us they are coming to hurt me,

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Speaker 1: but they were. We were worried about the person who

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Speaker 1: never called at all, that just showed up. And you know,

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Speaker 1: the head of the US Capitol Police just a few

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Speaker 1: months ago said that there's not a more dangerous time

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Speaker 1: to be an elected official than there is today, and

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Speaker 1: so we need to turn down the rhetoric you know

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Speaker 1: these people, I genuinely believe I worked with people who

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Speaker 1: cared about their community and their country, and we're trying

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Speaker 1: to serve And while we may not all agree on

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Speaker 1: policy perspectives, the way to resolve those things is through words,

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Speaker 1: not through your fists. Like I tell my children all

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Speaker 1: the time, you know, use your words, not your hands.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we we have to reclaim that there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of challenges in front of this country right now.

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Speaker 1: We need to have a debate, but not debate that

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Speaker 1: results in violence. You know, if we all just listen

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Speaker 1: to our moms, we wouldn't have half the problems we

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Speaker 1: had in this country right now. I think we're all

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Speaker 1: well aware of that. With regard to the investigations into

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Speaker 1: January six specifically, we've got the Special Counsel as I

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Speaker 1: mentioned here in Washington, we've also got Fulton County in Georgia.

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Speaker 1: You were dealing with many of the same materials that

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Speaker 1: these investigations are in tandem as part of the January

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Speaker 1: sixth committee. And I know there was talk about cooperation.

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Speaker 1: Can you shed any light on that. Do you have

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Speaker 1: any expectation for either of these cases to resolve soon? Well? So,

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Speaker 1: When we wrapped up the January sixth Select Committee, we

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Speaker 1: released our data and all of the information, the depositions,

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Speaker 1: the transcripts, etc. Are widely available. We are seeing Republicans

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Speaker 1: weaponize that in ways where they cherry pick things that

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Speaker 1: support their narrative, and I think that's a bit unfair.

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Speaker 1: But all of the information is out there, and I

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Speaker 1: stand by the report. What I hope is for some

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Speaker 1: of these other investigations to be able to leverage the

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Speaker 1: information that we were able to gather to further their investigations,

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Speaker 1: and then they need to come to a decision as

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Speaker 1: to whether or not they believe there's something that was criminal,

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Speaker 1: criminal conduct happened, and whether or not they have a

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Speaker 1: case that can be prosecuted. I'm sure that you're waiting

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Speaker 1: for news much like we are, and we'd love to

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Speaker 1: talk to you when we learn more. It's great to

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Speaker 1: have you back. Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy, a former member of

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Speaker 1: the January six Committee, former congresswoman from Florida, with us

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Speaker 1: here to get things started. You're listening to Bloomberg. You

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Speaker 1: sound on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. No handcuffs

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Speaker 1: when Donald Trump goes to the courthouse next Tuesday, set

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Speaker 1: to enter a not guilty plea, his lawyer Joe Tacopina,

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Speaker 1: making the round series on, among other programs, Good Morning

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Speaker 1: America on ABC, talking with George Stephanopolis about not so

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Speaker 1: much the agreement, but at least the items that we

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Speaker 1: already know about the way this will unfold next week.

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Speaker 1: The president will not be putting handcuffs. As far as

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Speaker 1: the most shots concerned purp walk. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: as I said, I'm sure they'll try to make sure

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Speaker 1: they get some you know, joy out of this by

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Speaker 1: bye parading him, remembering he wanted to be paraded, at

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Speaker 1: least that that's what had been reported. Should he smile?

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Speaker 1: He wondered if he should wear a tie. He wanted

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Speaker 1: to be handcuffed and given the purp walk for the

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Speaker 1: sake of the photographs and the potential fundraising, the potential

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Speaker 1: political impact. Let's assemble our panel. It's the day after

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Speaker 1: and we have the two voices you want to hear

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Speaker 1: from Rick Davis and Jeannie Schanzeyo, both of whom weighed

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Speaker 1: in last evening here on Bloomberg, but now on sound

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Speaker 1: On or of course signature panel. They're all ours right now. Rick,

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Speaker 1: I'll start with you here. Donald Trump apparently was surprised

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Speaker 1: I think that Alvin Bragg had the head fake of

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Speaker 1: the year. It is all convinced that the grand jury

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Speaker 1: wasn't going to meet again and turn out a indictment

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Speaker 1: until later in April. Everyone was following the schedule, and

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Speaker 1: and next thing you know, yesterday afternoon, the indictment is announced.

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Speaker 1: So I think Donald Trump claims he was surprised by that,

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Speaker 1: and I think everybody else should be too, because I

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Speaker 1: think they actually kept this under wraps pretty well, different

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Speaker 1: from what the President's attorney was saying today. If this

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Speaker 1: was a grand jury that was a leaking a lot,

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Speaker 1: we would have known yesterday that they were coming out,

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Speaker 1: and nobody did. So I think that Alvin Bragg at

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Speaker 1: least got the first shot in a clean environment where

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Speaker 1: he was able to paint the indictment for what it was,

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Speaker 1: which is I'm sure why he was trying to keep

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Speaker 1: it quiet until the time that they announced it. Genie,

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Speaker 1: we don't know what the charges are going to be.

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Speaker 1: There's talk reportedly thirty counts or something like that. Inside

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Speaker 1: this sealed AFT David, this sealed indictment. Was this the

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Speaker 1: case with the little we know about it? And I

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Speaker 1: want to be fair here because we don't know a lot.

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Speaker 1: But we also know there are a couple of other

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Speaker 1: grand juries looking at very important stuff like alleged attempts

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Speaker 1: to overturn an election, for instance, the handling of classified documents.

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Speaker 1: Is this matter, that of hush money payments, the reason

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Speaker 1: to set a precedent with the first ever indictment of

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Speaker 1: a former president. Yeah, I mean, I think it's an

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Speaker 1: important to underscore we don't know what's in this indictment,

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Speaker 1: and if there are thirty counts, it may include more

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Speaker 1: than what we think. But what we think at this

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Speaker 1: point at least is the falsified business records and a

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Speaker 1: tie in at the federal level to make it more

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Speaker 1: than a misdemeanor in terms of campaign finance violations. And

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Speaker 1: those are obviously serious, but maybe not in many people's minds,

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Speaker 1: quite as serious as what Fulton County George is looking

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Speaker 1: into the Mari Laco documents or January sixth, and so

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Speaker 1: I think you raise a really important question because we

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Speaker 1: are at a point where a norm in American politics

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Speaker 1: and am arc in history that has lasted over two

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Speaker 1: hundred years. Obviously, a sitting president shouldn't be indicted. But

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Speaker 1: now you have a former president being indicted, and in

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Speaker 1: many people's minds, when it involves business records documents, maybe

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Speaker 1: that doesn't rise to a level in which we break

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Speaker 1: that norm. And you know, a lot of people, particularly Republicans,

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Speaker 1: believe that. And that's why they believe when Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: says it is a political persecution. They believe that as well,

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Speaker 1: because you know, in Alvin Bragg's defense one hundred and seventeen,

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Speaker 1: we understand times in his you know, fourteen months as

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Speaker 1: Manhattan DA, he has charged this crime. But we are

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Speaker 1: not talking about an average person like me. We are

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Speaker 1: talking about a former president. And so you have to

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Speaker 1: be very careful when you do this. And this is

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Speaker 1: what is lending credence to Trump's argument that this is

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Speaker 1: a witch hunt. Rick, I've heard the name al Capone

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Speaker 1: thrown around here a lot lately the last couple of

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Speaker 1: days as people try to sort of qualify this or

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Speaker 1: put it in perspective. Those who think this is a

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Speaker 1: good idea say, hey, you know, they didn't get al

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Speaker 1: Capone on anything more than tax evasion. You take the

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Speaker 1: case that you can get or thirty counts of business fraud,

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Speaker 1: if that's what we're talking about here, worth it? You know,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to tell. I mean, you know, this is

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Speaker 1: the process of trying this case in the court of

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Speaker 1: public opinion. Right, Well, let's find a comparative example, like

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Speaker 1: al Capone, Uh that it's not a moral equivalent. Al

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Speaker 1: Capone was a criminal, right, they brought banks, you know,

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Speaker 1: and and and and so. Uh. Comparing that to the

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Speaker 1: former president United States is just not an a moral equivalent. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is the task that that Alvin

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Speaker 1: Bragg has in front of him. I mean, it's one

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Speaker 1: thing to have prepared a case and gotten his uh

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Speaker 1: grand jury to to report these indictments. But he's got

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Speaker 1: a job of convincing the American public that this is

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Speaker 1: the right thing to do. Um. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: Quinnipiac poll out showing sixty two percent of all Americans

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Speaker 1: believe Bragg's motive by politics. This is not just Republicans,

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Speaker 1: this is Americans in general. And he's got to convince

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Speaker 1: them that this isn't about politics, that it's about the

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Speaker 1: rule of law. It's about maintaining, you know, the idea

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Speaker 1: that nobody is above the rule of law, and I

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Speaker 1: would say he's done a really poor job of setting

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Speaker 1: that up. I know that he had to get to

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Speaker 1: this point, but where is he this weekend? What is

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Speaker 1: he telling the public? Where are we going to be

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Speaker 1: in form that somehow this has risen to the occasion

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Speaker 1: it's the first time a president United States will ever

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Speaker 1: be indicted for a crime, either during or after their

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Speaker 1: term of office. Joe Tacopina, a Donald Trump's lawyer who

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Speaker 1: I've played a couple of clips from here, was asked

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Speaker 1: again on ABC about this idea of thirty counts of

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Speaker 1: business fraud, and it's interesting the way he words his answer.

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Speaker 1: I've been through this with a number of lawmakers over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks and analysts who have come

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Speaker 1: on this program who speak about the payments. As a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, here's Tacopina. I believe we'll focused around

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Speaker 1: this Stormy Daniel's confidentiality settlement agreement, completely legal settlement agreement

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Speaker 1: that was made years and years ago. I think what

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Speaker 1: they've done was take each check or payment and an

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Speaker 1: extrapolated account out of that. But I don't don't think

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be more than what we expected. As far

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Speaker 1: as the factual patterns are concerned. You never hear the

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Speaker 1: word alleged. You never hear supposedly or purportedly. Genie. He

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Speaker 1: just said, what they've done is take each check or

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Speaker 1: payment and extrapolate out of that. So they exist. They

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Speaker 1: do exist, and I think it's an acknowledgement of what

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Speaker 1: we all know that the payments did occur. But it

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Speaker 1: is still a very difficult case for the prosecution and

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Speaker 1: a number of ways in which the defense can go.

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Speaker 1: And another thing we are hearing is Alan Weisselberg's name

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Speaker 1: an awful lot. So as we think about these counts,

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Speaker 1: you keep wondering, is it more than the hush money

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Speaker 1: payments to the porn star. Obviously, that and of itself

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Speaker 1: is not a violated of the law. The violation would

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Speaker 1: be the falsification of their records. That's a violation of

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Speaker 1: New York state law. But I keep hearing the name

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Speaker 1: Alan Weisselberg. Is he going to come in and testify?

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Speaker 1: And are they going to be talking about something beyond

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Speaker 1: those payments? I think those are big questions, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I think we're going to all be watching this weekend

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Speaker 1: to see do we get a sense as to what

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Speaker 1: the charges are before the arrangement at two fifteen on Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: Is that going to leak out? So far it hasn't,

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Speaker 1: but it very well might, and that may give us

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Speaker 1: an indication of where they're headed on this I suspect

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Speaker 1: it could be a leaky weekend. Rick, what's your expectation

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Speaker 1: the next couple of days. We have to wait till Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: I think there's any evidence that this has actually been

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Speaker 1: much of a leaky process out of the prosecutor's office.

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Speaker 1: I mean, all the leaking that we've seen in the

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Speaker 1: last three weeks have come from Donald Trump, and according

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Speaker 1: to his lawyer, you know, he's just making this stuff up. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that that we're going to learn

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Speaker 1: when when the process begins, and the process begins, it

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Speaker 1: sounds like on Tuesday afternoon, you know, when Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: reports for his arraignment, and and and so I would say,

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Speaker 1: just on the point that Jennie was making. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things about these campaign finance violations is,

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Speaker 1: um you know, if you if you violate campaign financial

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Speaker 1: rules and you admit it, it's a misdemeanor. By and large,

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Speaker 1: if you violate a campaign financial rule and then try

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Speaker 1: to cover it up, like what I believe is alleged

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Speaker 1: in this indictment, Uh, then you have all kinds of

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Speaker 1: other implications because maybe one of the ways that this

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Speaker 1: was covered up was cooking the books within the Trump

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Speaker 1: organization to shield the payments that were being made to

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Speaker 1: the to Michael Cohen, his lawyer, who then made the

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Speaker 1: payments to Storey Daniels. So it triggers a lot of

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Speaker 1: downside risks for for the Trump organization depending upon how

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Speaker 1: they reported this. Again, it's the classic Washington dilemma. It's

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Speaker 1: not the crime, it's the cover up to get you

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Speaker 1: in trouble. What do you think of the arrangement, Jeanie,

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Speaker 1: no perp walk. Are you disappointed? I think Trump is

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Speaker 1: good to be disappointed. No, I think that is a

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Speaker 1: very good thing. I think the last thing we need

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Speaker 1: is a purp walk, you know. I do think this

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Speaker 1: mug shop may get out. And Alan Dershowitz yesterday was

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Speaker 1: saying that it could serve as a campaign poster for

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Speaker 1: the president former president if you can imagine, Kim. But

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Speaker 1: I hope we would save ourselves all seeing a purp walk,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad to hear that he's not going to

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Speaker 1: be handcuffed. I think the more this is toned down

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Speaker 1: and the less divisive it is, if that's possible, the

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Speaker 1: better for all of us. You're listening to Bloomberg You

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Speaker 1: sound on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for

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Speaker 1: being with us on the fastest show in politics times

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Speaker 1: Joe Matthew Live from Washington today, as we get our

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Speaker 1: heads around everything that we have heard and the great

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Speaker 1: deal of information we have yet to learn involving this

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Speaker 1: Trump indictment, Will it help Donald Trump? Many ask, with

432
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: more than the magabase. He seems to think so, having

433
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: spent days raising money on the of an arrest, talked

434
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: about it in advance of the indictment on Fox News.

435
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: I don't know whether it helps or hurts. I can

436
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: tell you in my opinion, it's a new way of

437
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: cheating on elections. It's called election interference. What they're doing

438
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: is if they can't win in the ballot box, because

439
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 1: I'm leading everybody by a lot in the polls, from

440
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: every Republican frankly, and every Democrat by a lot, including Biden,

441
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 1: by a lot, and they can't beat you that way,

442
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: they're gonna do this kind of stuff. I can't tell

443
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: you what polls he's looking at, but indeed he is

444
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: leading the field here. Assuming the field gets bigger, let's

445
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: reassemble the panel. Rick Davis and Genie Chanzano, Bloomberg Politics contributors.

446
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: This is going to be the argument from here, Genie,

447
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: whether it's this indictment or three, which is entirely possible

448
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: in the scope of this presidential campaign cycle, that hey,

449
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: they can't beat me, so they're weaponizing the government. That's

450
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: been the line from the Republican Party. Can you see

451
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: that sticking with independent voters? No, you know, I think

452
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: he's going to have real trouble with independent voters. You know,

453
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: this is something that will stick with the base. But

454
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: the reality is Donald Trump lost in twenty twenty, and

455
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: he lost the Republicans Congress in twenty two. So how

456
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: is it that knowing that he paid off a porn

457
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: star who he had an affair with, going to help

458
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 1: him gain the votes of independent voters. It's you know,

459
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: it's mind numbing. And of course Joe Biden the Democrats

460
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: know that, and that's why they're hoping that the ticket

461
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: is Biden versus Trump, because they feel even though Biden

462
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: is underwater in his favorables, if he's running against Trump,

463
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: Trump isn't going to be able to add any votes

464
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: that he had in twenty and in fact, it's likely

465
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: to lose some votes. So you know, it's mind numbing

466
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: from that perspective. And I think that also raises the

467
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: question why yesterday were all of the people who are

468
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: running against him, from Ron de Santist to Mike Pence

469
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: and others, jumping out so fast before we even see

470
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: the indictment to defend Donald Trump. It is it's head scratching.

471
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: Are they running against him or not? If they're running

472
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: against him, they may want to hold their fire defending him,

473
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: and they may want to get out there because he

474
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: is leading them in the polls right now. Yeah, well, yes,

475
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: certainly speaks to his grip on the party here. I

476
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: don't know your thoughts on that, Rick, but if if

477
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: Americans are not trusting of government institutions right now, could

478
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: his argument not stick He's a victim here by a

479
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: weaponized government. Oh yeah, I mean, I think we need

480
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: to only look back as far as two years to

481
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: realize that Donald Trump barely lost this presidential campaign after

482
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: having really been the most anti government president of our time,

483
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: and even subsequent to his conduct around the January sixth

484
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: attack on the Capitol and really trying to undermine the

485
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: peaceful transfer of power in many different ways, he's still

486
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: the leading Republican in this field for the nomination for

487
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,479
Speaker 1: twenty twenty. I would say that in that same connect

488
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: Back poll and I quoted earlier that had sixty believing

489
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: that this was a politically motivated prosecution, fifty seven percent

490
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: of all Americans believe this disqualifies him from running for office.

491
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: And so if that's a proxy, the problem that the

492
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: Republican Party has is he very well could be the nominee,

493
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: but under these terms, there's no way he could win

494
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: a general election. And so, you know, it's a real

495
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: trap that the party's gotten themselves into. And I do

496
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: think it calls into question this sort of you know,

497
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: you know, going to the safe place by Republicans by saying, oh, well,

498
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: this is a politically motivated prosecution that fits into the

499
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: you know, the normal public prosture, but it doesn't help

500
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: them look at winning a general election in twenty twenty four. Yeah,

501
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: Genie is the gag order. Next, we have a story

502
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: on the Terminal that asks this question, knowing that Donald

503
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: Trump has already taken to social media warning of death

504
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: and destruction, calling to action protests take our nation back.

505
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: We've seen certainly court is restricting what a defendant says

506
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: about the case. Is that. Next, Yeah, Donald Trump is leaky,

507
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: as they say, so it might be coming. And we

508
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: saw that with his his friend Roger Stone. I think

509
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: it's going to happen if Donald Trump takes to social media,

510
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: as you said in Truth social and other things, and starts,

511
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, making statements say potentially about the judge that

512
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,959
Speaker 1: trying to influence or you know, threatened as you know,

513
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: not that he I'm not saying he would, but threatened

514
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: the jury in anyway, then we might see them put

515
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: out a gag or the judge rather put out a

516
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: gag order. And that's why this is going to be really,

517
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: really tough for the judge in charge of this case.

518
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: And I mentioned Roger Stone because that is what happened

519
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: in the case of Roger Stone. We remember he had that,

520
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: you know, the the photo of the judge and you

521
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: know it is not unlike the photo that Donald Trump

522
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: put out and then backed away from with the bat

523
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: to Alvin Bragg's head. So I do think that if

524
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: he continues down that line, when it pretends pretends to

525
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: the jury, the judge, and or the prosecutor, we may

526
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: see a gag order. But I don't know how much

527
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: he's going to, you know, abide by it. You know

528
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: he's going to push the line on that Rick. But

529
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: you know, Roger Stone was not a presidential candidate. This

530
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: is this could be a First Amendment issue for Donald Trump. No, well,

531
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: it's not even a First Amendment issue. The Constitution is

532
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: very clear that states can't prohibit the conduct of a

533
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: presidential candidate. It's the it's the classic federal state divide.

534
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: And so I think the judge would have incredibly difficulty

535
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: trying to gag a presidential canon. Roger Stone wasn't a

536
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: presidential can He was a private citizen and had no

537
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: protections other than First Amendment which are not covered in

538
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: a court case. So I think Donald Trump is probably

539
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: going to get away with pretty much anything he wants

540
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: to in this case. Are you guys worried about the

541
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: next couple of days here? Are you worried about violent Genie. Yeah,

542
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: I mean we heard the NYPD called everybody out for Tuesday.

543
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 1: When the officer in uniform, every uniform non uniform, it's

544
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: going to be an absolute circus down in Lower Manhattan,

545
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: you know. So I do think and what we're hearing

546
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,719
Speaker 1: is that just very much like we saw after Marlago.

547
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: You know, it's probably something more along the lines of

548
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: a lone wolf if something happens versus a big concerted

549
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, sort of a rally. And you know, if

550
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: that does happen, certainly in New York, they are well

551
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: poised to address that. And we've already seen the barriers

552
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: go up down there, so you know, I don't think

553
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: that would turn violent, hopefully, but you know, we never

554
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: know what can happen. We did not predict January sixth,

555
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: after all the chatter that was out there leading up

556
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: to it. What do you think, Rick, Is it a

557
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: worry that you have? Are you more concerned about the

558
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: lone wolf as we heard from some law enforcement officials

559
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: this week? Yeah, I actually hope that's the case. It's

560
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: certainly no indication to day that the kind of death

561
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: and destruction that Donald Trump predicted would happen if he

562
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: were indicted. Has occurred, and I hope people keep their

563
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: heads and realize that this is going to be going

564
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: on probably for her the entire year ahead of us,

565
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: if not more. And and so I'm hoping that you know,

566
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: officials take opportunities over the weekend and early next week

567
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: to make public statements that help, you know, tamp down

568
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: any potential you know, violent activity. Rick Davis and Jennie

569
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: Shanzano our panel. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to the

570
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the program live weekdays at

571
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg

572
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also

573
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station,

574
00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. Manhattan District Attorney

575
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: Alton braggs firing back at Republicans in the House, primarily

576
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: here in Washington, demanding his testimony over the indictment of

577
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Remember, there were three House chairs who asked

578
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: for Bragg to come to Washington, sit for an interview

579
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: and provide materials from the investigation. He said no. And

580
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: when we asked Congressman Jim Comer, who chairs the Oversight Committee,

581
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: about this couple days ago. On balance of power. He

582
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: said he was open to sending mister Bragg a subpoena.

583
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: Bragg's grand jury course voting to bring charges against Donald

584
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: Trump and this hush money case involving Stormy Daniels sent

585
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: a letter to House Judiciary Committee Chairer Jim Jordan. Bragg's

586
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: general counsel, Leslie Dubeck, said the jurors had found probable

587
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: cause to charge Trump. Jim Jordan is on this Brian

588
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: style House Administration Committee. James Comer, who I just mentioned.

589
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: I've got the letter here March twenty twenty three, sent

590
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: by email, but we printed it anyway like any other defendant.

591
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: He writes, mister Trump is entitled to challenge these charges

592
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: in court and avail himself of all processes and protections

593
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: that New York States robust criminal procedure affords. What neither

594
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: mister Trump nor Congress may do is interfere with the

595
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: ordinary course of proceedings in New York State. We heard

596
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: this morning from Joe Tacopina, donald Trump's lawyer, talking on

597
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: ABC's Good Morning America that it's the end of justice.

598
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: As we know. In my thirty two years as lawyer,

599
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: both as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I feel like

600
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: the rule of law died yesterday in this country, and

601
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: it's not something that I'm happy about. The rule of

602
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: law died yesterday. Let's get into this right now with

603
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: Robert Mint's, former federal prosecutor partner at McCarter in English. Robert,

604
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. From your experience, do

605
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: you see it the same way? Well, I certainly has

606
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: seen cases where defense lawyers have challenged prosecutors. I've gone

607
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: public with their view that theory of prosecution is unsupported

608
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: by the law. But that's something that is generally hashed

609
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: out in court before the trial judge. And I've never

610
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: seen an instance where Congress has sought to question the

611
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: prosecutor about is theory of the case during an ongoing

612
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: criminal prosecution. It's something that is left to the discretion

613
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: of prosecutors in the first instance, and then ultimately it's

614
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: in the hands of the trial judge and the jurors

615
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: who have to decide the case. Well, I've been looking

616
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: forward to talking with you, Robert, because there are a

617
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: lot of people who have no legal experience saying a

618
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: lot about this case, and we don't even know what

619
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: the charges are. What are the most important questions that

620
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: you're asking right now, Well, one of them is what

621
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: you just said, which is, we haven't even seen the indictment.

622
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: So for people to challenge it without knowing what the

623
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: charges are its creature. And of course we don't even

624
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 1: know what evidence was presented to the grand jury because

625
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: that's something that was secret. And again, so individuals really

626
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 1: don't know the evidence behind this case. I mean, there's

627
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: obviously been some leaks, we know people that have been

628
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: in and out of the grand jury. So there's been

629
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: testimony given, but the full extent of that testimony, what

630
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: people said, and what documents procesures may or may not have,

631
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: we just don't know. There's a great chance that this

632
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: has to do with more than just payments to Stormy Daniels,

633
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: that there could be other evidence far beyond Michael Cohen's testimony.

634
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: If we ended up with some thirty counts, as CNN

635
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,919
Speaker 1: is reporting, is that is that what you're inferring here, Well,

636
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: we just don't know what it's about, but certainly thirty

637
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: counts if that reporting proves to be accurate, would suggest

638
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: that it involves something beyond the hush money payments that

639
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: we're connected to Stormy Daniels. Bloomberg is reporting Robert that

640
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: Donald Trump will be a reigned two fifteen pm in

641
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 1: the courthouse on Tuesday in Lower Manhattan. We understand there

642
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: will not be a perp walk, He will not be handcuffed.

643
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: What else will have and though when he goes inside

644
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: the bowels of the court he'll have the Secret Service

645
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: with him. What will Donald Trump go through that day? Well,

646
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 1: for one thing, he'll go through history because we've never

647
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: seen a former president come in and have to go

648
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: through the process that any other defendant in this country

649
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: would go through, which he would include taking his fingerprints,

650
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: a mug shot will be taken, they will swab his

651
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: cheek to get a mandatory sample for New York's DNA database.

652
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: They'll get pedigree information. So that's all the standard process

653
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 1: that any defendant will go through and that the former

654
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: president will go through, except that he'll do it being

655
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: accompanied by Secret Service agents. And of course I think

656
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: additional steps will be taken so that this will all

657
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: be done outside of the view of the media and

658
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: other people who may be gathered at the courthouse. Does

659
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: that mean we don't see the mug shot or not. Well,

660
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: that's a good question. I don't know whether we'll see that,

661
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: you know, or not, but I can assure it will

662
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: be taken. And at that point he just leaves, He

663
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: enters them un guilty plea and then goes home. They're

664
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: not going to put him in some sort of holding cell.

665
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 1: I presume right now. No, I don't. We won't respect

666
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: that at all. This is really a low level felony.

667
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: Let's keep that in mind. While prosecutors here have charged

668
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: what could be a misdemeanor as a felony, given the

669
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: way that they've tied it to a leged campaign violation,

670
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: it's still the low level felony that in most cases

671
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: would not result in any jail time even if convicted.

672
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: And so we'll see a situation where he's immediately released

673
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: on bail and will not be detained for any period

674
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: of time. I expect there's been a lot of talk

675
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: about this exceeding the statute of limitations, that this is

676
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: more than seven years after the fact. Is that a

677
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: real issue, Robert or not something you're concerned with well,

678
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: the stactual limitations for the misdemeanor charges two years. The

679
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 1: stactual limitations for the felony, which is what we're expecting

680
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: to be charged here, is five years. But in New

681
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: York state also has your rule that that five year

682
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: statute is told, which means it stops running when a

683
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: defendant is out of state. So if you add up

684
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: all the time and mister Trump was in Washington, was

685
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: that Marlavo was outside the state of New York, all

686
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: of that doesn't count towards that five years. So I

687
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: don't expect that we're going to see a stashed limitations

688
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: issue at the end of the day here, how about that,

689
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: because that's a talking point you're going to keep hearing

690
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: all weekend. Robert Min's how concerned are you about violence

691
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: in Lower Manhattan in the coming days. Well, I think

692
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: we should be very concerned, given what we've seen previously

693
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: and given some of the heated rhetoric that's flying around here. Now,

694
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: this is a process that will ultimately go through the courts.

695
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: Mister Trump's lawyers will have an opportunity to make motions,

696
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: They'll have an opportunity to argue before a jury. If

697
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: it ultimately gets to a trial, and ultimately it will

698
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: be up to judge you to decide whether the prosecutor's

699
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: theory holds up here, if he's ultimately convicted, I think

700
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: we have to let that process go forward, and hopefully

701
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: people will protest if they believe that this is unjust.

702
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 1: But we do have a system in place, a judicial system,

703
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: the separate branch of government. It's not tied to the

704
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: executive branch, it's not tied to Congress, and we just

705
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: have to let this process move forward as we would

706
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: in any other case. We've had governor's charge, We've had

707
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: sitting senators charged with the crimes, and they've gone through

708
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: the process and ultimately they're either convicted or acquitted, and

709
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: that's what's going to happen here. Great conversation, Robert, Thank

710
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: you for your expertise. Robert Man's former federal prosecutor. He's

711
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 1: now a partner at mcarter. In English, I'm Joe, Matthew

712
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: and Washington been looking forward to talking with Tim O'Brien.

713
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what is going through his head right now.

714
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Opinion Senior executive editor and of course, the author

715
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 1: of the book Trump Nation, The art of being the Donald. Tim,

716
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you because you spent so

717
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: much of your career focused on this individual, writing about

718
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: his alleged transgressions. Did you ever think you'd see this day,

719
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: you know, Joe, That's a good question, to be honest.

720
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 1: Until he became president, it wasn't something that I really

721
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: focused on. I think Donald Trump the businessman is very

722
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: different from Donald Trump, a global leader with his finger

723
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: on the nuclear button and able to rouse his followers

724
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: to attack the capital on January six. They're just completely

725
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: different forces in the world. And I think an issue

726
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: right now is whether or not he's going to be

727
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: held accountable under the rule of law. I think, to

728
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: a certain extent, it's unfortunate that I think the brag

729
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: case is the first test of that proposition, because I

730
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: think it is the weakest of the various cases of

731
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: rate against him right now. That's been the sort of

732
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: conventional wisdom that has based also on I haven't seen

733
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: the fall indictment, yes, of course, and it's smart to

734
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: continue reminding our listeners of that right and any of

735
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: us out here, any of us talking heads who are

736
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: saying and opining on the indictment and the merits or

737
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: lack thereof, of Alvin Bragg's suit. Have not seen the indictment,

738
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: and it's been reported that there's more than thirty counts

739
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: in it. And if that's the case, there's a possibility

740
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: that goes well beyond you know, falsification of business records

741
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: and campaign finance violation for the hush money page to

742
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: Stormy annuals. It may encompass other things that none of

743
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: us have known about, and Bragg may have a broader

744
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: and more robust set of facts behind him than is

745
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: currently known. I mean, he's got enough now it would

746
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: appear on a you know, for a minor felony charge,

747
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: but you know, you're you're waiting into really difficult territory

748
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: when when you're doing that and it involves a president

749
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: and partisan ranker and everything else put's in play right now.

750
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: You mentioned the thought that this is the weakest of

751
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: the three major cases that he could be facing possible

752
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: three indictments here. Michael Cohen weighed in on what I

753
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: believe is his podcast. Didn't know he had one, but

754
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: he really tried to put this in perspective, Say, my gosh,

755
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: don't we've been We've been working on this for a

756
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: long time, and this is a big deal. Some of

757
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: you may be disappointed that it's not enough, but you

758
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 1: must understand that getting to this point, breaking through Trump's

759
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: filings of lawyers and his daily obfuscation and intimidation, was

760
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 1: no small feat. This is a man who was used

761
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: to bending the wheels of justice to his favor and

762
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: has done so countless time. He certainly passionate about it.

763
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: Does he have appoints him? Well, it sounds like the

764
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: home shopping network right there. But um, I think you know,

765
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: Michael has his own acts to grind, as to many

766
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: observers around here around this, Here's here's what I think

767
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: you know. There's actually there's a potential of five major

768
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: cases against him right now. There's three actives that we

769
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: know of, the you know, the Manhattan District Triney criminal case,

770
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: New York City of General Attorney, general civil case, a

771
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: electoral fraud case in Georgia brought by the Faulkland County

772
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: District Attorney. But the real McGill and all of this

773
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: to me, is in the Justice Department. There are two

774
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: investigations going around going on right now pertaining to the

775
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: expropriation of classified records that went to mado Lago, and

776
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: Trump's role in the January sixth insurrection. Um. What ties

777
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: all these cases together are whether or not Donald Trump's

778
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: going to be held accountable. Where they diverge is the

779
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: extent to which he's going to be He's going to

780
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: suffer any penalty even if even if he has found

781
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 1: guilty in the Georgia and the two New York cases,

782
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: that's not going to keep him out of the White House.

783
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: I also think all three of them are unlikely to

784
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: land in the jail. The civil case definitely won't New York,

785
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: but the but the DOJ cases there are You know,

786
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: there are laws in which Donald Trump can if he

787
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: has found guilty of fomenting an insurrection and trying to

788
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 1: towards the Constitution. Under the fourteenth of an insurrection prevents

789
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: you from running for high office in the United States,

790
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: and so he could be prevented from running. Carrotus again,

791
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: I think that's where the rubber meets the road in

792
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: all of these and I think we sort of have

793
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: to sign them weight and relevance based on some of

794
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: those things. Having said that each of these prosecutors are

795
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: independent actors who have been charged with looking after the

796
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: law and enforcing its its rules and guidelines. They're doing

797
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: what they're supposed to do. By large, that's what we

798
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: ask of our institutions, even when they're flawed. And I

799
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: think it's important that this proceed peacefully. Michael Cohen refers

800
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: to the lawyers and the fixers and those surrounding Donald

801
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: Trump in Manhattan, or I guess in this case at Marlago,

802
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: Tim bring us inside the apparatus. What's happening inside the

803
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: Trump organization today? Well, I think, you know, I think

804
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: this is the world they've never been in before. Donald

805
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: Trump has spent decades weaponizing a legal system against his opponents, partners,

806
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 1: and critics, and without great consequence to himself. And this

807
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: is the first time that a media indictment has landed

808
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: on his doorstep. So I'm sure they're in shock. I

809
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: think for all his bravado about being able to take

810
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: on all opponents, he doesn't want to be humiliated in

811
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: a public sphere, and there's a possibility that he's going

812
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: to be handcuffed and perp walked in front of other people.

813
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: And for a man who is a media addict and

814
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: as an unquenchable need for attention. That's not the kind

815
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: of attention he wants to get. So I think that

816
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: he's I think he's very distressed and probably feeling cornered

817
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: and a cornered Donald Trump as a dangerous person. Well,

818
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: he was tweeting or a true thing. I guess it

819
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: was at three o'clock in the morning to him. I'm

820
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,399
Speaker 1: guessing he was up all night. What what's your thought

821
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 1: when you look at the campaign ahead? Will Donald Trump

822
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 1: ever stand on a debate stage or does he consider

823
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: himself above that? Will he have to hear from other

824
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: candidates about this? That's a great that's a great question.

825
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if he'll consent and on

826
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: a debate stage. To a certain extent, that may be

827
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: irrelevant also because I think regardless, he's going to be

828
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: a very strong force in the Republican primary. He has

829
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: a tight grip on about thirty percent of Republican voters,

830
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: and an other candidates tack to deal with that reality,

831
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: which is why they all walk tentatively around him, and

832
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: he's sort of grotesque issues he may he's put front

833
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: and center. The problem is he's not a viable national candidate,

834
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 1: I don't think, and so he's got the party hell

835
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: hostage to a certain extent. You're not the first to

836
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: say that on the program today, Tim O'Brien, I'm delighted

837
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: you could have some time for us here Bloomberg Opinion

838
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: Teenior Executive Editor. I'm thinking, Tim, he's going to have

839
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: to start writing a new book.