WEBVTT - Power and Nations: Anne-Marie Slaughter 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:23.996 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.036 --> 0:00:27.476 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:27.996 --> 0:00:32.996 I'm Noah Feldman. As regular listeners know, this season of 0:00:33.036 --> 0:00:37.636 Deep Background is all about power. We've talked about power 0:00:37.716 --> 0:00:40.316 in a range of different forms already and will continue 0:00:40.356 --> 0:00:43.876 to talk about it in many, many different ways. But 0:00:43.916 --> 0:00:46.876 one of the central areas in which power is exercised 0:00:46.876 --> 0:00:51.396 in our world is the area of international affairs. Power 0:00:51.476 --> 0:00:55.996 gets expressed by governments, it gets expressed by militaries, It 0:00:56.076 --> 0:01:00.356 gets expressed by international organizations like the United Nations and 0:01:00.396 --> 0:01:03.036 the alphabet soup of other organizations that go with it. 0:01:03.916 --> 0:01:07.556 All of these forms of power are also exercised by 0:01:07.676 --> 0:01:12.236 real human beings. Over the next few weeks here on 0:01:12.316 --> 0:01:15.436 the show, we're going to be diving deep into the 0:01:15.516 --> 0:01:20.156 question of power in foreign affairs, and particularly the way 0:01:20.196 --> 0:01:25.276 that international power is changing in the current moment of 0:01:25.356 --> 0:01:28.676 historical time. In order to do that, we're going to 0:01:28.716 --> 0:01:32.636 engage some of the world's leading thinkers on power in 0:01:32.636 --> 0:01:38.036 international affairs. The first guest joining us in this series 0:01:38.076 --> 0:01:42.676 of conversations is the extraordinary foreign policy thinker and expert 0:01:43.116 --> 0:01:47.436 and Maurice laughter Ann Ree's accomplishments are so extraordinary there 0:01:47.476 --> 0:01:50.716 are almost too many to list. She started her career 0:01:50.756 --> 0:01:53.756 as an international lawyer and as a professor at Harvard 0:01:53.836 --> 0:01:56.876 Law School. She went on to become the dean of 0:01:56.996 --> 0:02:01.676 Princeton's School of Public and International Affairs. She worked in 0:02:01.796 --> 0:02:05.916 Hillary Clinton's State Department as the director of Policy Planning, 0:02:06.236 --> 0:02:08.956 traditionally the job for a policy intellectual who has the 0:02:09.396 --> 0:02:14.316 picture in mind, and today she's CEO of New America, 0:02:14.396 --> 0:02:17.356 the public policy think tank with which I have been 0:02:17.396 --> 0:02:21.276 fortunate enough to be associated at various times throughout my 0:02:21.356 --> 0:02:24.636 own career. In short, Anne Marie is one of the 0:02:24.636 --> 0:02:28.396 most listened to and respected experts who thinks about the 0:02:28.436 --> 0:02:32.676 way power is deployed in our world, and especially about 0:02:32.796 --> 0:02:37.596 the people who deploy that power through networks. Anne Marie, 0:02:37.636 --> 0:02:43.116 thank you so much for joining me. An Marie, I'm 0:02:43.116 --> 0:02:45.516 so grateful to you for coming on the show. I 0:02:45.556 --> 0:02:48.356 really wanted to talk to you about the big theme 0:02:49.156 --> 0:02:52.356 that we're focused on this season on deep background, which 0:02:52.396 --> 0:02:56.596 is the theme of power, because you've written so deeply 0:02:56.796 --> 0:03:00.716 about power and also participated in the shaping and distribution 0:03:00.796 --> 0:03:03.796 of power in the sphere of foreign affairs and international 0:03:03.836 --> 0:03:06.876 relations over your fascinating career. So I thought maybe one 0:03:06.876 --> 0:03:09.436 way to structure the conversation was to begin by asking 0:03:09.516 --> 0:03:14.196 you how things have changed over the course of your time. 0:03:14.716 --> 0:03:18.516 So let's start with you when you first found yourself 0:03:18.556 --> 0:03:22.996 as an active participant in power, maybe when you helped 0:03:23.076 --> 0:03:26.716 Abe Shas to help Nicaragua to sue the United States 0:03:26.716 --> 0:03:29.436 in front of the International Court of Justice. How did 0:03:29.476 --> 0:03:33.716 you think about international power and the United States then 0:03:34.276 --> 0:03:39.076 compared to how it's changed since. Such a great question, 0:03:40.796 --> 0:03:45.516 and that in many ways, the changes in the distribution 0:03:45.556 --> 0:03:49.916 of power, but also the way power is wielded has 0:03:50.036 --> 0:03:55.436 defined my career in international relations, or over my lifetime, 0:03:55.516 --> 0:04:00.916 we've seen dramatic shifts. I worked with Abe representing Nicaragua 0:04:01.076 --> 0:04:03.676 in the eighties, so we're still in the Cold War, 0:04:03.836 --> 0:04:06.876 and that is the place to start. When you were 0:04:06.876 --> 0:04:11.716 studying international relations in the seventies and eighties, anytime after 0:04:11.956 --> 0:04:14.836 the Soviet Union really rose, you are looking at a 0:04:14.876 --> 0:04:22.756 bipolar world and everything is seen through that lens, even 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:28.516 the case that Nicaragua brings against the United States and 0:04:28.596 --> 0:04:32.076 the World Court, because the United States had mined the 0:04:32.116 --> 0:04:35.116 waters of the Port of Nicaragua, which is actually kind 0:04:35.116 --> 0:04:38.756 of astounding because we were opposed to the Sandinistas. Why 0:04:38.796 --> 0:04:41.356 are we opposed to the Sandinistas because they're supported by 0:04:41.396 --> 0:04:44.036 the Russians or the Soviets at that point, So everything 0:04:44.156 --> 0:04:47.796 is seen through this lens of you have two massive 0:04:48.276 --> 0:04:54.436 superpowers who are opposed and they support proxy wars of 0:04:54.476 --> 0:04:57.876 all kinds. But I'd say that's the Cold War distribution 0:04:57.916 --> 0:05:03.756 of power. Two superpowers, obviously other nuclear powers France, Britain, China, 0:05:03.996 --> 0:05:08.596 who are very important, and then a structure of global 0:05:08.676 --> 0:05:11.556 governance that worked when the superpowers weren't trying to block 0:05:11.596 --> 0:05:15.516 one another. Today the first thing you'd say, as well, 0:05:15.516 --> 0:05:18.476 but there aren't two superpowers. And I do not believe 0:05:18.596 --> 0:05:21.276 that China and the United States are the superpowers of 0:05:21.276 --> 0:05:23.836 the twenty first century. I think that's far too simple. 0:05:25.436 --> 0:05:29.716 There are the traditional great powers, and Russia is still 0:05:29.716 --> 0:05:35.956 a great power its ability to disrupt anyway. But then 0:05:35.996 --> 0:05:38.756 of course you have the rising powers or the returning 0:05:38.796 --> 0:05:44.756 powers India clearly, Brazil, South Africa, but also digital powers. 0:05:44.756 --> 0:05:49.476 It's just a much more complex landscape of power. The 0:05:49.556 --> 0:05:52.636 other thing I would start with is look at the 0:05:52.716 --> 0:05:56.036 largest companies in the world. They are far more powerful 0:05:56.316 --> 0:06:00.676 than a hundred of the states and the United Nations, 0:06:01.196 --> 0:06:04.476 and then lots of civic groups. So you have a complex, 0:06:04.596 --> 0:06:10.956 shifting landscape of power that is layered on top of 0:06:11.716 --> 0:06:15.156 a traditional state system of power, and that itself has changed. 0:06:15.996 --> 0:06:18.916 We'll go more deeply into each of those types of 0:06:18.956 --> 0:06:21.396 power before we do. I actually want to ask something 0:06:21.436 --> 0:06:26.356 about how people who wield power in foreign affairs, individual 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:32.276 human beings operated in that bipolar Cold War era. Because 0:06:32.956 --> 0:06:35.596 Abehas at the time that you were working with him, 0:06:36.076 --> 0:06:38.956 was a professor at Harvard Law School, and there you 0:06:38.996 --> 0:06:40.676 were at the cusp of what will be a career 0:06:40.676 --> 0:06:44.236 where you two would work for the US government. Was 0:06:44.276 --> 0:06:47.596 there something strange at that time or was it perceived 0:06:47.676 --> 0:06:51.196 as strange or was it perceived as completely normal for 0:06:51.316 --> 0:06:55.836 you and he to help represent a country that wasn't 0:06:55.876 --> 0:06:59.116 on the US side in the Cold War? Yes, The 0:06:59.156 --> 0:07:04.556 New York Times ran a story called America's Accuser. Abe's argument, 0:07:04.716 --> 0:07:07.716 which I still use today, is there is nothing wrong 0:07:07.756 --> 0:07:11.156 withholding the United States to its own highest standards, that 0:07:11.236 --> 0:07:15.236 this was appalling the behavior of the United States. So 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:19.316 it was again this ideal of the rule of law, 0:07:19.516 --> 0:07:21.556 of the global rule of law, as well as the 0:07:21.636 --> 0:07:24.636 domestic rule of law. And for somebody like Abe who 0:07:24.636 --> 0:07:28.196 believed in international law, he also believed in the intersection 0:07:28.236 --> 0:07:32.676 of law and politics, this was a perfectly reasonable thing 0:07:32.676 --> 0:07:36.116 to do and really a patriotic thing to do. Today 0:07:36.476 --> 0:07:39.676 people would say, well, you're helping an enemy of the 0:07:39.716 --> 0:07:43.636 United States engaged in what we today call lawfair. Yes, right, 0:07:43.956 --> 0:07:45.836 which is there are a lot of definitions of law fair, 0:07:45.916 --> 0:07:48.356 but people often define it as the use of law 0:07:48.356 --> 0:07:53.116 and legal institutions to push the geopolitical interests of a 0:07:53.196 --> 0:07:57.236 party in a conflict. That wasn't really though, seen as 0:07:57.236 --> 0:07:59.236 the salient issue. It was more like, there's an ideal 0:07:59.236 --> 0:08:02.636 of international law in the United States, arrantly broke it, 0:08:03.156 --> 0:08:05.556 and so therefore it was patriotic to stand up for 0:08:07.036 --> 0:08:09.956 that principle. One of the family as takeaways of that 0:08:09.996 --> 0:08:15.316 case was that you guys won, yes, right, Nicaraguo won 0:08:15.356 --> 0:08:18.596 its lawsuit in the World Court, and the US took 0:08:18.636 --> 0:08:22.276 its ball and went home, yes, and just refused to 0:08:22.316 --> 0:08:26.676 allow that judgment to mean much of anything in practice. 0:08:27.436 --> 0:08:29.516 Talk to me just for a moment about whether that 0:08:29.716 --> 0:08:33.516 marked an important inflection point for you in the history 0:08:33.556 --> 0:08:39.236 of how international institutions like the World Court participated in 0:08:39.796 --> 0:08:42.076 global power, because I guess that was just a huge 0:08:42.196 --> 0:08:47.916 blow to the prestige of the Court in a certain way. 0:08:48.476 --> 0:08:51.836 It was so I'm thinking back, So we have this 0:08:51.876 --> 0:08:56.116 whole fight about jurisdiction. The Court rules that it has jurisdiction, 0:08:56.796 --> 0:09:01.396 and then the United States stops playing. But the Court 0:09:01.676 --> 0:09:07.236 does issue a judgment against the United States. And so 0:09:07.316 --> 0:09:10.356 what Abe would have said, and what I would agree 0:09:10.636 --> 0:09:13.796 is international law is not going to work just like 0:09:13.876 --> 0:09:16.596 domestic law. It's not going to get enforced because the 0:09:16.716 --> 0:09:23.556 Court has no coercive powers. But when the government changed 0:09:23.556 --> 0:09:27.316 in the United States under the Clinton administration, there was 0:09:27.516 --> 0:09:31.916 a recognition that this was a black mark against the 0:09:31.996 --> 0:09:34.716 United States. When we're there, we are telling to other 0:09:34.756 --> 0:09:37.436 countries that they ought to abide by the rule of law, 0:09:37.436 --> 0:09:39.236 and they could just point to this and say, you're 0:09:39.236 --> 0:09:43.276 a complete hypocrite. And so it became a bargaining chip 0:09:43.396 --> 0:09:46.276 between the US government and the Nicaraguan government, and there 0:09:46.436 --> 0:09:50.436 was finally a settlement. And Abe would have said, that's 0:09:50.476 --> 0:09:53.116 the intersection of law and politics. I still think his 0:09:53.156 --> 0:09:57.076 book The Cuban Missile Crisis is one of the great 0:09:57.196 --> 0:10:00.476 works on international law and politics. And it's a monograph. 0:10:00.476 --> 0:10:02.356 It's one hundred and twenty five pages. I read it 0:10:02.396 --> 0:10:06.236 when I was an undergraduate in Richard Fox law class 0:10:06.956 --> 0:10:10.996 at Princeton, and it was all about out the ways 0:10:11.076 --> 0:10:15.436 in which you can use law to shape political choices 0:10:15.436 --> 0:10:18.476 and options. So I think he would have said overall 0:10:18.516 --> 0:10:21.596 that it was worth bringing the case. It was worth 0:10:21.836 --> 0:10:24.956 certainly litigating the case, and the Nicaraguan's got something out 0:10:24.956 --> 0:10:28.476 of it. I'm really interested in something you've written deeply 0:10:28.476 --> 0:10:31.356 and extensively about one or even two full books about this, 0:10:31.396 --> 0:10:35.516 depending on how you measure, which is the human networks 0:10:35.636 --> 0:10:40.396 of interaction between the real people who participate in the 0:10:40.436 --> 0:10:43.476 shaping of decisions in international affairs. You know, that's the 0:10:43.476 --> 0:10:45.956 way the real world works, and a lot of people 0:10:45.996 --> 0:10:47.516 don't know about it. And one of the things you've 0:10:47.516 --> 0:10:49.716 done in your work is to remind people out in 0:10:49.756 --> 0:10:53.076 the public that this is actually how international institutions often function. 0:10:53.876 --> 0:10:55.676 I want to ask you to start by just saying 0:10:55.676 --> 0:10:59.356 a word about how you think those networks of humans 0:11:00.196 --> 0:11:04.556 are shaping power now, and then I'll ask a follow 0:11:04.596 --> 0:11:06.836 on skeptical question about whether that's a good or a 0:11:06.836 --> 0:11:08.636 bad thing. But let's start with the how, because I 0:11:08.636 --> 0:11:11.756 think this is still not well understood by the general world. 0:11:11.796 --> 0:11:14.876 When people think whereas power international domain, they either think, well, 0:11:14.876 --> 0:11:16.716 they are governments and they're these big strong things, or 0:11:16.716 --> 0:11:19.956 their corporations and they are these big strong things. You've 0:11:19.996 --> 0:11:22.556 done a lot, at least in my reading, to draw 0:11:22.596 --> 0:11:25.316 people's attention to the fact that there are humans who 0:11:25.396 --> 0:11:29.116 do this, and they have friendships and networks and experiences 0:11:29.116 --> 0:11:33.156 and political responsibilities, and that plays a role. Yes, well, 0:11:33.156 --> 0:11:36.636 the first thing to say is, in my generation of 0:11:36.676 --> 0:11:41.636 international lawyers, people used to talk very openly about saying 0:11:41.716 --> 0:11:45.516 from Oscar Shackter, a former a great international law professor 0:11:45.516 --> 0:11:50.036 at Columbia, who talked about the invisible college of international law, 0:11:50.356 --> 0:11:54.836 and what he meant was international lawyers around the world 0:11:55.076 --> 0:11:59.316 who absolutely came together in places like the International Court 0:11:59.316 --> 0:12:03.076 of Justice, but also in countless arbitrations. Right, there's an 0:12:03.276 --> 0:12:08.876 entire world of international arbitration of states versus states, but 0:12:09.156 --> 0:12:13.036 off in corporations versus states, and everybody knew each other, 0:12:13.196 --> 0:12:17.436 and everybody had either taught one another or worked with 0:12:17.476 --> 0:12:20.796 one another or been classmates, and so this and he 0:12:20.836 --> 0:12:24.196 would say the invisible college of international law. Right today 0:12:24.236 --> 0:12:27.316 to say that would be automatically suspect, and I think 0:12:27.436 --> 0:12:31.236 rightly because it was a very closed shop. It was 0:12:31.236 --> 0:12:34.116 a white mail shop, but it wasn't just white men. 0:12:34.236 --> 0:12:36.916 It was of a very particular kind. And they went 0:12:36.956 --> 0:12:39.676 to long dinners in Geneva and the Hague in New 0:12:39.756 --> 0:12:43.956 York and various places, and all knew each other and 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:47.316 did believe in the law. So I'm not saying that 0:12:47.396 --> 0:12:51.756 they bribed one another or anything like that, but it 0:12:51.796 --> 0:12:55.156 was a cozy world. It was a world of referrals. 0:12:55.276 --> 0:12:58.716 So once you're in it, you know, you recommend other 0:12:58.756 --> 0:13:02.676 people as arbitrators or of counsel. It's a lucrative world. 0:13:03.396 --> 0:13:06.276 I think people would look at maybe the International Court 0:13:06.316 --> 0:13:09.636 of Justice or the International Bar or the United Nations 0:13:09.836 --> 0:13:13.356 and see that it's a pretty clubby group of diplomats 0:13:13.476 --> 0:13:18.116 and understand that there are corridors of power there and 0:13:18.276 --> 0:13:22.636 deals made that No one has any understanding of what 0:13:22.796 --> 0:13:25.476 I wrote about in my first book in two thousand 0:13:25.476 --> 0:13:29.316 and four, but I really started studying this in nineteen 0:13:29.396 --> 0:13:33.636 ninety four. Were networks of judges, not international judges, but 0:13:34.196 --> 0:13:40.476 US judges, Canadian judges, South African, European judges who were 0:13:41.316 --> 0:13:44.196 talking to one another and meeting at international conferences and 0:13:44.276 --> 0:13:49.236 exchanging opinions. And then these networks, very powerful networks of 0:13:49.356 --> 0:13:56.116 central bankers, of finance ministers, securities commissioners, insurance commissioners. They 0:13:56.116 --> 0:13:59.436 have the same language, they face the same issues, and 0:13:59.516 --> 0:14:05.316 they have a very strong professional set of biases. And 0:14:05.436 --> 0:14:07.956 if we are going to have an open international order, 0:14:09.156 --> 0:14:11.436 you have to be aware of who those folks are. 0:14:11.556 --> 0:14:13.116 You have to be able to lobby them, you have 0:14:13.156 --> 0:14:16.276 to be able to restrain them. I think there's there's 0:14:16.316 --> 0:14:19.476 good power there, but only if it is held to 0:14:19.556 --> 0:14:25.876 account and made more transparent. Arguably that that network has 0:14:26.036 --> 0:14:29.676 those networks that you mentioned have now interpenetrated with each other. Yes, 0:14:29.796 --> 0:14:33.196 And sometimes as a shorthand, people will just say the 0:14:33.236 --> 0:14:37.476 one word Davos to describe the World Economic Forum that 0:14:37.516 --> 0:14:40.756 meets in Davos and elsewhere, and it's really hard to 0:14:40.796 --> 0:14:45.236 get invited, And it's all the room where it happened, Yes, 0:14:45.396 --> 0:14:48.996 And it's a lot of rooms, and you know, people 0:14:49.076 --> 0:14:53.316 with power go and are excited to go. And you know, 0:14:53.476 --> 0:14:56.956 maybe there's something that critics of this, both from the 0:14:57.036 --> 0:14:59.996 left and the right, are onto when they say, gee, 0:15:00.116 --> 0:15:03.756 a lot of global geopolitics is being done by a 0:15:03.876 --> 0:15:06.396 small number of powerful people behind closed doors. And some 0:15:06.436 --> 0:15:09.476 people have a conspiracy theory about that, and I always say, look, 0:15:09.516 --> 0:15:12.156 you don't need a conspiracy theory about it. You know 0:15:12.276 --> 0:15:15.076 it actually happens. It is real. It is you know, 0:15:15.156 --> 0:15:17.116 you have to be objective about what power it does 0:15:17.156 --> 0:15:21.036 and doesn't deploy. It's not absolute, but it's it's going 0:15:21.076 --> 0:15:23.356 on there. So I wonder if you would reflect on 0:15:24.076 --> 0:15:26.556 whether that's okay at all in their first place. I mean, 0:15:26.796 --> 0:15:28.796 could we make it better if we made the sessions 0:15:28.836 --> 0:15:31.676 more transparent at Davos, No, because people would still talk 0:15:31.716 --> 0:15:35.036 in the hallways or over exactly, and so it's not 0:15:35.076 --> 0:15:37.316 so anyway, I want to hear your thoughts about that. Yeah, 0:15:37.556 --> 0:15:40.956 that that is very right, And yeah, I will just 0:15:40.996 --> 0:15:43.756 say I stopped going years ago, and it's it's it's 0:15:43.836 --> 0:15:46.516 awful because it is all the room where it happens, 0:15:46.516 --> 0:15:50.556 and it's all concentric circles radiating out from the central hotels. 0:15:50.756 --> 0:15:53.516 But it's also a version of high school, right, It's 0:15:53.596 --> 0:15:58.036 it's like high school crossed with Hamilton, where you know, 0:15:58.116 --> 0:15:59.956 everybody wants to be in the room where it happens, 0:15:59.956 --> 0:16:03.316 and everybody is sure, there's there's a party going on somewhere, 0:16:03.316 --> 0:16:06.276 and there is, you know that much like high school. 0:16:06.436 --> 0:16:08.836 So as you were talking, I was thinking, yes, how 0:16:08.956 --> 0:16:11.156 is that? Back in two thousand and four, I could 0:16:11.196 --> 0:16:13.116 have written a book called a New World Order where 0:16:13.156 --> 0:16:17.036 I really thought that these networks of government officials, again 0:16:17.076 --> 0:16:20.876 of financial officials, but also any trust officials, environmental officials, 0:16:20.916 --> 0:16:24.636 judges were really positive because I look at what you're 0:16:24.636 --> 0:16:27.076 describing now and think, no, there is no way to 0:16:27.116 --> 0:16:30.356 hold that accountable. It's like the global blab You're not 0:16:32.116 --> 0:16:39.236 There's so much power there that there is no way 0:16:39.396 --> 0:16:42.636 to hold it accountable, to make it transparent, to lobby it. 0:16:42.756 --> 0:16:44.476 None of that will work. You actually have to change 0:16:44.476 --> 0:16:47.596 the power structures. But back you know, from nineteen ninety 0:16:47.596 --> 0:16:50.156 four to two thousand and four, it shows you where 0:16:50.236 --> 0:16:54.716 the American internationalist mindset was. I'm not going to talk 0:16:54.756 --> 0:16:57.316 about the world. This is the American international mindset, which 0:16:57.436 --> 0:17:02.916 was the Coal Wars. Finally, over the global governance infrastructure 0:17:02.956 --> 0:17:05.556 we and our allies put in place after nineteen forty 0:17:05.556 --> 0:17:08.436 five can actually work. You created the International Criminal Court, 0:17:08.436 --> 0:17:11.396 You're bringing people to account. And I was writing saying, 0:17:12.156 --> 0:17:16.636 you know, instead of just focusing on these big global institutions, 0:17:16.716 --> 0:17:19.436 Let's look at these networks because they can get things 0:17:19.556 --> 0:17:22.076 done and we need things done. Like if you have 0:17:22.156 --> 0:17:25.236 all global environmental ministers and they're all meeting and they 0:17:25.276 --> 0:17:28.756 all adopt a missions controls, we could get something done. 0:17:28.996 --> 0:17:33.356 And that was still a very optimistic vision of global governance. 0:17:33.756 --> 0:17:37.956 Since then, a again, as you pointed out, the CEOs 0:17:37.996 --> 0:17:42.676 are more powerful than many many, many of the government leaders. 0:17:43.236 --> 0:17:46.276 And you've also got even civic groups, which I admire. 0:17:46.356 --> 0:17:48.396 But you know, the big eight civic groups they're in 0:17:48.436 --> 0:17:53.516 those rooms too, and you will listeners what you mean 0:17:53.556 --> 0:17:59.476 by that. Yes, sorry, the big eight non governmental organizations OXFAM, Mercy, 0:17:59.596 --> 0:18:05.156 Core Care, Doctors Without Borders, who are great organizations, but 0:18:05.316 --> 0:18:07.756 they have a lot of power because they're very big, 0:18:07.796 --> 0:18:12.836 they're global, and in a way they kind of represent 0:18:13.116 --> 0:18:16.796 global civil society in a lot of these rooms of power. 0:18:17.356 --> 0:18:21.476 And whereas there are many smaller non governmental organizations, civic 0:18:21.596 --> 0:18:27.396 organizations of all kinds, who also feel that they don't 0:18:27.436 --> 0:18:29.636 have power. Many of them are in the global South. 0:18:29.676 --> 0:18:33.716 They are upset about the global North. But the larger picture, 0:18:33.996 --> 0:18:37.316 I think for many people is just as you said 0:18:37.356 --> 0:18:43.956 that there's this deeply networked global elite of people have 0:18:43.996 --> 0:18:47.236 been in government, people who are in business, people who 0:18:47.276 --> 0:18:52.476 are at the heads of top universities and top civic organizations, 0:18:52.516 --> 0:18:56.036 the Davos crowd, and I would be counted as one. 0:18:56.116 --> 0:18:58.796 I was going to say, I's gonna say I'm not 0:18:59.476 --> 0:19:03.276 Jack policy planning. The State Department was in the Woodrow 0:19:03.316 --> 0:19:06.076 Wilson at Princeton. Absolutely. That's one of the reasons you 0:19:06.076 --> 0:19:07.796 were so insightful about this, I think is that you 0:19:07.836 --> 0:19:12.316 were telling the story from the inside. So what changed? 0:19:12.356 --> 0:19:14.596 I mean, one one crude way to say it would 0:19:14.636 --> 0:19:19.196 be two thousand and four immediate post Cold War US 0:19:19.276 --> 0:19:22.076 has a very dominant global position, mostly because the Soviets 0:19:22.076 --> 0:19:26.316 have just crumbled. Yes, and so you know, American foreign 0:19:26.356 --> 0:19:28.796 policy thinkers like you are trying to figure out what 0:19:28.836 --> 0:19:32.356 will work right and one possibility is maybe these networks 0:19:32.356 --> 0:19:34.756 would be a way for US to express power without 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:38.276 pushing people around. You know, they would that that's that's 0:19:38.316 --> 0:19:41.156 maybe what a foreign policy realist, the cynic would say 0:19:41.156 --> 0:19:46.316 about why that looked good? Then what what what turned what? 0:19:46.716 --> 0:19:48.796 You could also see it optimistically, right, I mean, people 0:19:48.796 --> 0:19:50.716 were well meaning. The Soviet Union was gone. We were 0:19:50.716 --> 0:19:52.916 hoping to really make change in that period of time. 0:19:52.956 --> 0:19:55.916 That's when the International Criminal Court was coming into existence. 0:19:56.236 --> 0:20:00.916 Horrible things happened in Rwanda and Yugoslavia, but we created 0:20:00.916 --> 0:20:04.756 the International Tribunals for Yugoslavia Criminal Tribunalist Yugoslavia and for 0:20:04.836 --> 0:20:07.916 Rwanda in order to respond to those been better if 0:20:07.916 --> 0:20:09.236 they hadn't happened to in the first place, but once 0:20:09.236 --> 0:20:10.596 they happen, at least people were going to be held 0:20:10.596 --> 0:20:15.356 to account. What's happened over the last now nearly twenty years. 0:20:16.796 --> 0:20:19.196 That has made it so clear to you, and I 0:20:19.236 --> 0:20:22.316 think to many observers, at least those who are outside 0:20:22.316 --> 0:20:26.276 of the blob, that the blob isn't working. And I 0:20:26.356 --> 0:20:28.756 mean here, I would just say Donald Trump is just 0:20:28.796 --> 0:20:31.476 a symptom, yes, of a lot of people's feeling that 0:20:31.516 --> 0:20:34.716 it's not working, rather than any kind of a cause 0:20:34.756 --> 0:20:38.076 of it. Yes. And I would add that during that 0:20:38.156 --> 0:20:40.156 same period ninety four to two thousand and four, the 0:20:40.156 --> 0:20:43.596 European Union is becoming a union. Right. So when I 0:20:43.636 --> 0:20:46.716 look at NET, I was looking at networked government structures. 0:20:46.796 --> 0:20:49.356 That is the European Union. It is networks of all 0:20:49.396 --> 0:20:53.716 their officials and it develops a single market, it develops 0:20:53.716 --> 0:20:56.436 a common currency, it comes together as a political union. 0:20:56.436 --> 0:21:01.356 So it was a much more optimistic period for the 0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:04.876 ability to have both law and government capacity at the 0:21:04.916 --> 0:21:08.196 global level. And I saw these networks, if they could 0:21:08.236 --> 0:21:11.596 be more participatory, inclusive and transparent as a big piece 0:21:11.596 --> 0:21:16.596 of it. So what has changed, Well, the starting point, 0:21:16.636 --> 0:21:21.076 I think you would say is that hasn't delivered. Right 0:21:21.116 --> 0:21:24.156 as I sit now, I just have to start from 0:21:24.156 --> 0:21:28.236 the prospect of however imperfect the UN system was, and 0:21:28.356 --> 0:21:31.076 it always was. But before the end of the Cod 0:21:31.076 --> 0:21:34.756 War and after you still you had a Asian financial 0:21:34.836 --> 0:21:39.076 crisis in nineteen ninety seven and the finance ministers came 0:21:39.116 --> 0:21:42.836 together and stabilized it. And climate change, we had the 0:21:42.916 --> 0:21:47.796 Kyoto Protocol. There was still global problem solving capacity. Today 0:21:47.876 --> 0:21:50.796 you're looking at a climate that is out of control. 0:21:50.916 --> 0:21:53.676 There we have the Paris Agreement, but nobody thinks that 0:21:54.036 --> 0:21:56.596 that is going to get us there. We have a 0:21:56.636 --> 0:22:01.716 global pandemic. The who was relatively powerless. You had to 0:22:01.756 --> 0:22:05.716 put together private again and public networks, and even that 0:22:05.796 --> 0:22:09.796 didn't work nearly as well. You have global corruption. Tax 0:22:09.796 --> 0:22:13.476 haven's if you are not just even a member of 0:22:13.516 --> 0:22:16.556 the elite looking around much less somebody who's been on 0:22:16.596 --> 0:22:20.276 the losing end of the global economy. You just sense 0:22:20.476 --> 0:22:24.756 that these institutions are talking shops at best, and these 0:22:24.796 --> 0:22:29.516 deals that are being cut are benefiting the privileged at 0:22:29.516 --> 0:22:32.196 the expense of everyone else. So I think there's not 0:22:32.396 --> 0:22:36.316 optimism about what the international system is doing. I do 0:22:36.476 --> 0:22:42.076 also think the Internet is a huge part of this, 0:22:42.196 --> 0:22:46.156 because we now actually have a tangible sense when we 0:22:46.236 --> 0:22:50.876 think about the Worldwide Web of just the extraordinary complexity 0:22:50.956 --> 0:22:55.556 of it all, and with all these different groups coming together, 0:22:55.596 --> 0:22:57.756 and of course they can come together virtually and then 0:22:57.876 --> 0:22:59.676 come together in the dark web, and we have a 0:22:59.756 --> 0:23:04.116 much better sense of all the crime that is a 0:23:04.236 --> 0:23:06.356 part of all those networks. So you know, my book 0:23:06.356 --> 0:23:11.436 in twenty seventeen is about how do we use networks 0:23:11.476 --> 0:23:15.436 to fight criminal networks, how do we use networks to 0:23:15.596 --> 0:23:18.716 undo the power of other networks, or simply how do 0:23:18.796 --> 0:23:22.156 we see a map and try to control networks. So 0:23:22.196 --> 0:23:26.116 it's a far more complex world and a much less 0:23:26.156 --> 0:23:41.796 optimistic one. We'll be right back and what would work? 0:23:42.276 --> 0:23:45.316 What should we be trying to have in place of 0:23:45.356 --> 0:23:47.236 the blog? I mean, so, take the climate change issue, 0:23:47.276 --> 0:23:51.556 which is so pressing that you mentioned we had international agreements. 0:23:52.396 --> 0:23:55.356 We still have some international agreements. They don't look like 0:23:55.476 --> 0:24:00.476 they're enough. That said, climate change remains a global problem, 0:24:00.516 --> 0:24:06.036 and presumably any solution still is going to require coordinated 0:24:06.836 --> 0:24:12.956 global action. So what's going to work? Such a simple question. 0:24:13.116 --> 0:24:16.436 What's going to work? Well, I would just start for 0:24:16.476 --> 0:24:18.036 a reason, we don't don't. We don't bother with the 0:24:18.116 --> 0:24:21.596 chit chat. We just dive right in. So I would 0:24:21.636 --> 0:24:28.796 start by saying, any fantasy of world government, or even 0:24:29.076 --> 0:24:34.476 proto world government, cannot work because it's just far too complex. 0:24:34.476 --> 0:24:37.356 So if you look at the UN system, that's a 0:24:37.436 --> 0:24:42.116 proto world government with a hard power core, right, I mean, 0:24:42.156 --> 0:24:45.556 there's the Security Council is a realist core with an 0:24:45.596 --> 0:24:50.836 institutionalist rapping. Because Roosevelt and Stalin and Churchill knew full 0:24:50.876 --> 0:24:53.676 well that if the great powers were not on board, 0:24:53.716 --> 0:24:55.836 you weren't going to get anything done. But they thought 0:24:56.396 --> 0:24:59.796 that there were enough situations where the great powers would 0:24:59.796 --> 0:25:03.556 either be on board or would not block one another, 0:25:03.716 --> 0:25:05.716 that it could work. And I think I think, all 0:25:05.756 --> 0:25:08.516 things considered, the world's been better off with the United 0:25:08.596 --> 0:25:12.436 Nations and without one. But today even if you could 0:25:12.516 --> 0:25:17.316 convene some kind of global conference. It would be crazy 0:25:17.356 --> 0:25:19.396 to try to set something up that look like a 0:25:19.396 --> 0:25:23.036 global executive, a global legislature, so the Security Council, the 0:25:23.156 --> 0:25:27.716 General Assembly, and an international court. No, not that those 0:25:27.756 --> 0:25:31.516 things don't have someplace, But I think of the world 0:25:31.676 --> 0:25:35.436 in network terms. I think of it in the chessboard, 0:25:35.476 --> 0:25:39.156