1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:27,476 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:32,996 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. As regular listeners know, this season of 4 00:00:33,036 --> 00:00:37,636 Speaker 1: Deep Background is all about power. We've talked about power 5 00:00:37,716 --> 00:00:40,316 Speaker 1: in a range of different forms already and will continue 6 00:00:40,356 --> 00:00:43,876 Speaker 1: to talk about it in many, many different ways. But 7 00:00:43,916 --> 00:00:46,876 Speaker 1: one of the central areas in which power is exercised 8 00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:51,396 Speaker 1: in our world is the area of international affairs. Power 9 00:00:51,476 --> 00:00:55,996 Speaker 1: gets expressed by governments, it gets expressed by militaries, It 10 00:00:56,076 --> 00:01:00,356 Speaker 1: gets expressed by international organizations like the United Nations and 11 00:01:00,396 --> 00:01:03,036 Speaker 1: the alphabet soup of other organizations that go with it. 12 00:01:03,916 --> 00:01:07,556 Speaker 1: All of these forms of power are also exercised by 13 00:01:07,676 --> 00:01:12,236 Speaker 1: real human beings. Over the next few weeks here on 14 00:01:12,316 --> 00:01:15,436 Speaker 1: the show, we're going to be diving deep into the 15 00:01:15,516 --> 00:01:20,156 Speaker 1: question of power in foreign affairs, and particularly the way 16 00:01:20,196 --> 00:01:25,276 Speaker 1: that international power is changing in the current moment of 17 00:01:25,356 --> 00:01:28,676 Speaker 1: historical time. In order to do that, we're going to 18 00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:32,636 Speaker 1: engage some of the world's leading thinkers on power in 19 00:01:32,636 --> 00:01:38,036 Speaker 1: international affairs. The first guest joining us in this series 20 00:01:38,076 --> 00:01:42,676 Speaker 1: of conversations is the extraordinary foreign policy thinker and expert 21 00:01:43,116 --> 00:01:47,436 Speaker 1: and Maurice laughter Ann Ree's accomplishments are so extraordinary there 22 00:01:47,476 --> 00:01:50,716 Speaker 1: are almost too many to list. She started her career 23 00:01:50,756 --> 00:01:53,756 Speaker 1: as an international lawyer and as a professor at Harvard 24 00:01:53,836 --> 00:01:56,876 Speaker 1: Law School. She went on to become the dean of 25 00:01:56,996 --> 00:02:01,676 Speaker 1: Princeton's School of Public and International Affairs. She worked in 26 00:02:01,796 --> 00:02:05,916 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton's State Department as the director of Policy Planning, 27 00:02:06,236 --> 00:02:08,956 Speaker 1: traditionally the job for a policy intellectual who has the 28 00:02:09,396 --> 00:02:14,316 Speaker 1: picture in mind, and today she's CEO of New America, 29 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:17,356 Speaker 1: the public policy think tank with which I have been 30 00:02:17,396 --> 00:02:21,276 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to be associated at various times throughout my 31 00:02:21,356 --> 00:02:24,636 Speaker 1: own career. In short, Anne Marie is one of the 32 00:02:24,636 --> 00:02:28,396 Speaker 1: most listened to and respected experts who thinks about the 33 00:02:28,436 --> 00:02:32,676 Speaker 1: way power is deployed in our world, and especially about 34 00:02:32,796 --> 00:02:37,596 Speaker 1: the people who deploy that power through networks. Anne Marie, 35 00:02:37,636 --> 00:02:43,116 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me. An Marie, I'm 36 00:02:43,116 --> 00:02:45,516 Speaker 1: so grateful to you for coming on the show. I 37 00:02:45,556 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 1: really wanted to talk to you about the big theme 38 00:02:49,156 --> 00:02:52,356 Speaker 1: that we're focused on this season on deep background, which 39 00:02:52,396 --> 00:02:56,596 Speaker 1: is the theme of power, because you've written so deeply 40 00:02:56,796 --> 00:03:00,716 Speaker 1: about power and also participated in the shaping and distribution 41 00:03:00,796 --> 00:03:03,796 Speaker 1: of power in the sphere of foreign affairs and international 42 00:03:03,836 --> 00:03:06,876 Speaker 1: relations over your fascinating career. So I thought maybe one 43 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:09,436 Speaker 1: way to structure the conversation was to begin by asking 44 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:14,196 Speaker 1: you how things have changed over the course of your time. 45 00:03:14,716 --> 00:03:18,516 Speaker 1: So let's start with you when you first found yourself 46 00:03:18,556 --> 00:03:22,996 Speaker 1: as an active participant in power, maybe when you helped 47 00:03:23,076 --> 00:03:26,716 Speaker 1: Abe Shas to help Nicaragua to sue the United States 48 00:03:26,716 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 1: in front of the International Court of Justice. How did 49 00:03:29,476 --> 00:03:33,716 Speaker 1: you think about international power and the United States then 50 00:03:34,276 --> 00:03:39,076 Speaker 1: compared to how it's changed since. Such a great question, 51 00:03:40,796 --> 00:03:45,516 Speaker 1: and that in many ways, the changes in the distribution 52 00:03:45,556 --> 00:03:49,916 Speaker 1: of power, but also the way power is wielded has 53 00:03:50,036 --> 00:03:55,436 Speaker 1: defined my career in international relations, or over my lifetime, 54 00:03:55,516 --> 00:04:00,916 Speaker 1: we've seen dramatic shifts. I worked with Abe representing Nicaragua 55 00:04:01,076 --> 00:04:03,676 Speaker 1: in the eighties, so we're still in the Cold War, 56 00:04:03,836 --> 00:04:06,876 Speaker 1: and that is the place to start. When you were 57 00:04:06,876 --> 00:04:11,716 Speaker 1: studying international relations in the seventies and eighties, anytime after 58 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:14,836 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union really rose, you are looking at a 59 00:04:14,876 --> 00:04:22,756 Speaker 1: bipolar world and everything is seen through that lens, even 60 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:28,516 Speaker 1: the case that Nicaragua brings against the United States and 61 00:04:28,596 --> 00:04:32,076 Speaker 1: the World Court, because the United States had mined the 62 00:04:32,116 --> 00:04:35,116 Speaker 1: waters of the Port of Nicaragua, which is actually kind 63 00:04:35,116 --> 00:04:38,756 Speaker 1: of astounding because we were opposed to the Sandinistas. Why 64 00:04:38,796 --> 00:04:41,356 Speaker 1: are we opposed to the Sandinistas because they're supported by 65 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:44,036 Speaker 1: the Russians or the Soviets at that point, So everything 66 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:47,796 Speaker 1: is seen through this lens of you have two massive 67 00:04:48,276 --> 00:04:54,436 Speaker 1: superpowers who are opposed and they support proxy wars of 68 00:04:54,476 --> 00:04:57,876 Speaker 1: all kinds. But I'd say that's the Cold War distribution 69 00:04:57,916 --> 00:05:03,756 Speaker 1: of power. Two superpowers, obviously other nuclear powers France, Britain, China, 70 00:05:03,996 --> 00:05:08,596 Speaker 1: who are very important, and then a structure of global 71 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:11,556 Speaker 1: governance that worked when the superpowers weren't trying to block 72 00:05:11,596 --> 00:05:15,516 Speaker 1: one another. Today the first thing you'd say, as well, 73 00:05:15,516 --> 00:05:18,476 Speaker 1: but there aren't two superpowers. And I do not believe 74 00:05:18,596 --> 00:05:21,276 Speaker 1: that China and the United States are the superpowers of 75 00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 1: the twenty first century. I think that's far too simple. 76 00:05:25,436 --> 00:05:29,716 Speaker 1: There are the traditional great powers, and Russia is still 77 00:05:29,716 --> 00:05:35,956 Speaker 1: a great power its ability to disrupt anyway. But then 78 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:38,756 Speaker 1: of course you have the rising powers or the returning 79 00:05:38,796 --> 00:05:44,756 Speaker 1: powers India clearly, Brazil, South Africa, but also digital powers. 80 00:05:44,756 --> 00:05:49,476 Speaker 1: It's just a much more complex landscape of power. The 81 00:05:49,556 --> 00:05:52,636 Speaker 1: other thing I would start with is look at the 82 00:05:52,716 --> 00:05:56,036 Speaker 1: largest companies in the world. They are far more powerful 83 00:05:56,316 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 1: than a hundred of the states and the United Nations, 84 00:06:01,196 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 1: and then lots of civic groups. So you have a complex, 85 00:06:04,596 --> 00:06:10,956 Speaker 1: shifting landscape of power that is layered on top of 86 00:06:11,716 --> 00:06:15,156 Speaker 1: a traditional state system of power, and that itself has changed. 87 00:06:15,996 --> 00:06:18,916 Speaker 1: We'll go more deeply into each of those types of 88 00:06:18,956 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 1: power before we do. I actually want to ask something 89 00:06:21,436 --> 00:06:26,356 Speaker 1: about how people who wield power in foreign affairs, individual 90 00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:32,276 Speaker 1: human beings operated in that bipolar Cold War era. Because 91 00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 1: Abehas at the time that you were working with him, 92 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:38,956 Speaker 1: was a professor at Harvard Law School, and there you 93 00:06:38,996 --> 00:06:40,676 Speaker 1: were at the cusp of what will be a career 94 00:06:40,676 --> 00:06:44,236 Speaker 1: where you two would work for the US government. Was 95 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:47,596 Speaker 1: there something strange at that time or was it perceived 96 00:06:47,676 --> 00:06:51,196 Speaker 1: as strange or was it perceived as completely normal for 97 00:06:51,316 --> 00:06:55,836 Speaker 1: you and he to help represent a country that wasn't 98 00:06:55,876 --> 00:06:59,116 Speaker 1: on the US side in the Cold War? Yes, The 99 00:06:59,156 --> 00:07:04,556 Speaker 1: New York Times ran a story called America's Accuser. Abe's argument, 100 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:07,716 Speaker 1: which I still use today, is there is nothing wrong 101 00:07:07,756 --> 00:07:11,156 Speaker 1: withholding the United States to its own highest standards, that 102 00:07:11,236 --> 00:07:15,236 Speaker 1: this was appalling the behavior of the United States. So 103 00:07:15,276 --> 00:07:19,316 Speaker 1: it was again this ideal of the rule of law, 104 00:07:19,516 --> 00:07:21,556 Speaker 1: of the global rule of law, as well as the 105 00:07:21,636 --> 00:07:24,636 Speaker 1: domestic rule of law. And for somebody like Abe who 106 00:07:24,636 --> 00:07:28,196 Speaker 1: believed in international law, he also believed in the intersection 107 00:07:28,236 --> 00:07:32,676 Speaker 1: of law and politics, this was a perfectly reasonable thing 108 00:07:32,676 --> 00:07:36,116 Speaker 1: to do and really a patriotic thing to do. Today 109 00:07:36,476 --> 00:07:39,676 Speaker 1: people would say, well, you're helping an enemy of the 110 00:07:39,716 --> 00:07:43,636 Speaker 1: United States engaged in what we today call lawfair. Yes, right, 111 00:07:43,956 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 1: which is there are a lot of definitions of law fair, 112 00:07:45,916 --> 00:07:48,356 Speaker 1: but people often define it as the use of law 113 00:07:48,356 --> 00:07:53,116 Speaker 1: and legal institutions to push the geopolitical interests of a 114 00:07:53,196 --> 00:07:57,236 Speaker 1: party in a conflict. That wasn't really though, seen as 115 00:07:57,236 --> 00:07:59,236 Speaker 1: the salient issue. It was more like, there's an ideal 116 00:07:59,236 --> 00:08:02,636 Speaker 1: of international law in the United States, arrantly broke it, 117 00:08:03,156 --> 00:08:05,556 Speaker 1: and so therefore it was patriotic to stand up for 118 00:08:07,036 --> 00:08:09,956 Speaker 1: that principle. One of the family as takeaways of that 119 00:08:09,996 --> 00:08:15,316 Speaker 1: case was that you guys won, yes, right, Nicaraguo won 120 00:08:15,356 --> 00:08:18,596 Speaker 1: its lawsuit in the World Court, and the US took 121 00:08:18,636 --> 00:08:22,276 Speaker 1: its ball and went home, yes, and just refused to 122 00:08:22,316 --> 00:08:26,676 Speaker 1: allow that judgment to mean much of anything in practice. 123 00:08:27,436 --> 00:08:29,516 Speaker 1: Talk to me just for a moment about whether that 124 00:08:29,716 --> 00:08:33,516 Speaker 1: marked an important inflection point for you in the history 125 00:08:33,556 --> 00:08:39,236 Speaker 1: of how international institutions like the World Court participated in 126 00:08:39,796 --> 00:08:42,076 Speaker 1: global power, because I guess that was just a huge 127 00:08:42,196 --> 00:08:47,916 Speaker 1: blow to the prestige of the Court in a certain way. 128 00:08:48,476 --> 00:08:51,836 Speaker 1: It was so I'm thinking back, So we have this 129 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 1: whole fight about jurisdiction. The Court rules that it has jurisdiction, 130 00:08:56,796 --> 00:09:01,396 Speaker 1: and then the United States stops playing. But the Court 131 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:07,236 Speaker 1: does issue a judgment against the United States. And so 132 00:09:07,316 --> 00:09:10,356 Speaker 1: what Abe would have said, and what I would agree 133 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:13,796 Speaker 1: is international law is not going to work just like 134 00:09:13,876 --> 00:09:16,596 Speaker 1: domestic law. It's not going to get enforced because the 135 00:09:16,716 --> 00:09:23,556 Speaker 1: Court has no coercive powers. But when the government changed 136 00:09:23,556 --> 00:09:27,316 Speaker 1: in the United States under the Clinton administration, there was 137 00:09:27,516 --> 00:09:31,916 Speaker 1: a recognition that this was a black mark against the 138 00:09:31,996 --> 00:09:34,716 Speaker 1: United States. When we're there, we are telling to other 139 00:09:34,756 --> 00:09:37,436 Speaker 1: countries that they ought to abide by the rule of law, 140 00:09:37,436 --> 00:09:39,236 Speaker 1: and they could just point to this and say, you're 141 00:09:39,236 --> 00:09:43,276 Speaker 1: a complete hypocrite. And so it became a bargaining chip 142 00:09:43,396 --> 00:09:46,276 Speaker 1: between the US government and the Nicaraguan government, and there 143 00:09:46,436 --> 00:09:50,436 Speaker 1: was finally a settlement. And Abe would have said, that's 144 00:09:50,476 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 1: the intersection of law and politics. I still think his 145 00:09:53,156 --> 00:09:57,076 Speaker 1: book The Cuban Missile Crisis is one of the great 146 00:09:57,196 --> 00:10:00,476 Speaker 1: works on international law and politics. And it's a monograph. 147 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:02,356 Speaker 1: It's one hundred and twenty five pages. I read it 148 00:10:02,396 --> 00:10:06,236 Speaker 1: when I was an undergraduate in Richard Fox law class 149 00:10:06,956 --> 00:10:10,996 Speaker 1: at Princeton, and it was all about out the ways 150 00:10:11,076 --> 00:10:15,436 Speaker 1: in which you can use law to shape political choices 151 00:10:15,436 --> 00:10:18,476 Speaker 1: and options. So I think he would have said overall 152 00:10:18,516 --> 00:10:21,596 Speaker 1: that it was worth bringing the case. It was worth 153 00:10:21,836 --> 00:10:24,956 Speaker 1: certainly litigating the case, and the Nicaraguan's got something out 154 00:10:24,956 --> 00:10:28,476 Speaker 1: of it. I'm really interested in something you've written deeply 155 00:10:28,476 --> 00:10:31,356 Speaker 1: and extensively about one or even two full books about this, 156 00:10:31,396 --> 00:10:35,516 Speaker 1: depending on how you measure, which is the human networks 157 00:10:35,636 --> 00:10:40,396 Speaker 1: of interaction between the real people who participate in the 158 00:10:40,436 --> 00:10:43,476 Speaker 1: shaping of decisions in international affairs. You know, that's the 159 00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:45,956 Speaker 1: way the real world works, and a lot of people 160 00:10:45,996 --> 00:10:47,516 Speaker 1: don't know about it. And one of the things you've 161 00:10:47,516 --> 00:10:49,716 Speaker 1: done in your work is to remind people out in 162 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:53,076 Speaker 1: the public that this is actually how international institutions often function. 163 00:10:53,876 --> 00:10:55,676 Speaker 1: I want to ask you to start by just saying 164 00:10:55,676 --> 00:10:59,356 Speaker 1: a word about how you think those networks of humans 165 00:11:00,196 --> 00:11:04,556 Speaker 1: are shaping power now, and then I'll ask a follow 166 00:11:04,596 --> 00:11:06,836 Speaker 1: on skeptical question about whether that's a good or a 167 00:11:06,836 --> 00:11:08,636 Speaker 1: bad thing. But let's start with the how, because I 168 00:11:08,636 --> 00:11:11,756 Speaker 1: think this is still not well understood by the general world. 169 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:14,876 Speaker 1: When people think whereas power international domain, they either think, well, 170 00:11:14,876 --> 00:11:16,716 Speaker 1: they are governments and they're these big strong things, or 171 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:19,956 Speaker 1: their corporations and they are these big strong things. You've 172 00:11:19,996 --> 00:11:22,556 Speaker 1: done a lot, at least in my reading, to draw 173 00:11:22,596 --> 00:11:25,316 Speaker 1: people's attention to the fact that there are humans who 174 00:11:25,396 --> 00:11:29,116 Speaker 1: do this, and they have friendships and networks and experiences 175 00:11:29,116 --> 00:11:33,156 Speaker 1: and political responsibilities, and that plays a role. Yes, well, 176 00:11:33,156 --> 00:11:36,636 Speaker 1: the first thing to say is, in my generation of 177 00:11:36,676 --> 00:11:41,636 Speaker 1: international lawyers, people used to talk very openly about saying 178 00:11:41,716 --> 00:11:45,516 Speaker 1: from Oscar Shackter, a former a great international law professor 179 00:11:45,516 --> 00:11:50,036 Speaker 1: at Columbia, who talked about the invisible college of international law, 180 00:11:50,356 --> 00:11:54,836 Speaker 1: and what he meant was international lawyers around the world 181 00:11:55,076 --> 00:11:59,316 Speaker 1: who absolutely came together in places like the International Court 182 00:11:59,316 --> 00:12:03,076 Speaker 1: of Justice, but also in countless arbitrations. Right, there's an 183 00:12:03,276 --> 00:12:08,876 Speaker 1: entire world of international arbitration of states versus states, but 184 00:12:09,156 --> 00:12:13,036 Speaker 1: off in corporations versus states, and everybody knew each other, 185 00:12:13,196 --> 00:12:17,436 Speaker 1: and everybody had either taught one another or worked with 186 00:12:17,476 --> 00:12:20,796 Speaker 1: one another or been classmates, and so this and he 187 00:12:20,836 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 1: would say the invisible college of international law. Right today 188 00:12:24,236 --> 00:12:27,316 Speaker 1: to say that would be automatically suspect, and I think 189 00:12:27,436 --> 00:12:31,236 Speaker 1: rightly because it was a very closed shop. It was 190 00:12:31,236 --> 00:12:34,116 Speaker 1: a white mail shop, but it wasn't just white men. 191 00:12:34,236 --> 00:12:36,916 Speaker 1: It was of a very particular kind. And they went 192 00:12:36,956 --> 00:12:39,676 Speaker 1: to long dinners in Geneva and the Hague in New 193 00:12:39,756 --> 00:12:43,956 Speaker 1: York and various places, and all knew each other and 194 00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:47,316 Speaker 1: did believe in the law. So I'm not saying that 195 00:12:47,396 --> 00:12:51,756 Speaker 1: they bribed one another or anything like that, but it 196 00:12:51,796 --> 00:12:55,156 Speaker 1: was a cozy world. It was a world of referrals. 197 00:12:55,276 --> 00:12:58,716 Speaker 1: So once you're in it, you know, you recommend other 198 00:12:58,756 --> 00:13:02,676 Speaker 1: people as arbitrators or of counsel. It's a lucrative world. 199 00:13:03,396 --> 00:13:06,276 Speaker 1: I think people would look at maybe the International Court 200 00:13:06,316 --> 00:13:09,636 Speaker 1: of Justice or the International Bar or the United Nations 201 00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 1: and see that it's a pretty clubby group of diplomats 202 00:13:13,476 --> 00:13:18,116 Speaker 1: and understand that there are corridors of power there and 203 00:13:18,276 --> 00:13:22,636 Speaker 1: deals made that No one has any understanding of what 204 00:13:22,796 --> 00:13:25,476 Speaker 1: I wrote about in my first book in two thousand 205 00:13:25,476 --> 00:13:29,316 Speaker 1: and four, but I really started studying this in nineteen 206 00:13:29,396 --> 00:13:33,636 Speaker 1: ninety four. Were networks of judges, not international judges, but 207 00:13:34,196 --> 00:13:40,476 Speaker 1: US judges, Canadian judges, South African, European judges who were 208 00:13:41,316 --> 00:13:44,196 Speaker 1: talking to one another and meeting at international conferences and 209 00:13:44,276 --> 00:13:49,236 Speaker 1: exchanging opinions. And then these networks, very powerful networks of 210 00:13:49,356 --> 00:13:56,116 Speaker 1: central bankers, of finance ministers, securities commissioners, insurance commissioners. They 211 00:13:56,116 --> 00:13:59,436 Speaker 1: have the same language, they face the same issues, and 212 00:13:59,516 --> 00:14:05,316 Speaker 1: they have a very strong professional set of biases. And 213 00:14:05,436 --> 00:14:07,956 Speaker 1: if we are going to have an open international order, 214 00:14:09,156 --> 00:14:11,436 Speaker 1: you have to be aware of who those folks are. 215 00:14:11,556 --> 00:14:13,116 Speaker 1: You have to be able to lobby them, you have 216 00:14:13,156 --> 00:14:16,276 Speaker 1: to be able to restrain them. I think there's there's 217 00:14:16,316 --> 00:14:19,476 Speaker 1: good power there, but only if it is held to 218 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:25,876 Speaker 1: account and made more transparent. Arguably that that network has 219 00:14:26,036 --> 00:14:29,676 Speaker 1: those networks that you mentioned have now interpenetrated with each other. Yes, 220 00:14:29,796 --> 00:14:33,196 Speaker 1: And sometimes as a shorthand, people will just say the 221 00:14:33,236 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 1: one word Davos to describe the World Economic Forum that 222 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:40,756 Speaker 1: meets in Davos and elsewhere, and it's really hard to 223 00:14:40,796 --> 00:14:45,236 Speaker 1: get invited, And it's all the room where it happened, Yes, 224 00:14:45,396 --> 00:14:48,996 Speaker 1: And it's a lot of rooms, and you know, people 225 00:14:49,076 --> 00:14:53,316 Speaker 1: with power go and are excited to go. And you know, 226 00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:56,956 Speaker 1: maybe there's something that critics of this, both from the 227 00:14:57,036 --> 00:14:59,996 Speaker 1: left and the right, are onto when they say, gee, 228 00:15:00,116 --> 00:15:03,756 Speaker 1: a lot of global geopolitics is being done by a 229 00:15:03,876 --> 00:15:06,396 Speaker 1: small number of powerful people behind closed doors. And some 230 00:15:06,436 --> 00:15:09,476 Speaker 1: people have a conspiracy theory about that, and I always say, look, 231 00:15:09,516 --> 00:15:12,156 Speaker 1: you don't need a conspiracy theory about it. You know 232 00:15:12,276 --> 00:15:15,076 Speaker 1: it actually happens. It is real. It is you know, 233 00:15:15,156 --> 00:15:17,116 Speaker 1: you have to be objective about what power it does 234 00:15:17,156 --> 00:15:21,036 Speaker 1: and doesn't deploy. It's not absolute, but it's it's going 235 00:15:21,076 --> 00:15:23,356 Speaker 1: on there. So I wonder if you would reflect on 236 00:15:24,076 --> 00:15:26,556 Speaker 1: whether that's okay at all in their first place. I mean, 237 00:15:26,796 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: could we make it better if we made the sessions 238 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:31,676 Speaker 1: more transparent at Davos, No, because people would still talk 239 00:15:31,716 --> 00:15:35,036 Speaker 1: in the hallways or over exactly, and so it's not 240 00:15:35,076 --> 00:15:37,316 Speaker 1: so anyway, I want to hear your thoughts about that. Yeah, 241 00:15:37,556 --> 00:15:40,956 Speaker 1: that that is very right, And yeah, I will just 242 00:15:40,996 --> 00:15:43,756 Speaker 1: say I stopped going years ago, and it's it's it's 243 00:15:43,836 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 1: awful because it is all the room where it happens, 244 00:15:46,516 --> 00:15:50,556 Speaker 1: and it's all concentric circles radiating out from the central hotels. 245 00:15:50,756 --> 00:15:53,516 Speaker 1: But it's also a version of high school, right, It's 246 00:15:53,596 --> 00:15:58,036 Speaker 1: it's like high school crossed with Hamilton, where you know, 247 00:15:58,116 --> 00:15:59,956 Speaker 1: everybody wants to be in the room where it happens, 248 00:15:59,956 --> 00:16:03,316 Speaker 1: and everybody is sure, there's there's a party going on somewhere, 249 00:16:03,316 --> 00:16:06,276 Speaker 1: and there is, you know that much like high school. 250 00:16:06,436 --> 00:16:08,836 Speaker 1: So as you were talking, I was thinking, yes, how 251 00:16:08,956 --> 00:16:11,156 Speaker 1: is that? Back in two thousand and four, I could 252 00:16:11,196 --> 00:16:13,116 Speaker 1: have written a book called a New World Order where 253 00:16:13,156 --> 00:16:17,036 Speaker 1: I really thought that these networks of government officials, again 254 00:16:17,076 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: of financial officials, but also any trust officials, environmental officials, 255 00:16:20,916 --> 00:16:24,636 Speaker 1: judges were really positive because I look at what you're 256 00:16:24,636 --> 00:16:27,076 Speaker 1: describing now and think, no, there is no way to 257 00:16:27,116 --> 00:16:30,356 Speaker 1: hold that accountable. It's like the global blab You're not 258 00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 1: There's so much power there that there is no way 259 00:16:39,396 --> 00:16:42,636 Speaker 1: to hold it accountable, to make it transparent, to lobby it. 260 00:16:42,756 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 1: None of that will work. You actually have to change 261 00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:47,596 Speaker 1: the power structures. But back you know, from nineteen ninety 262 00:16:47,596 --> 00:16:50,156 Speaker 1: four to two thousand and four, it shows you where 263 00:16:50,236 --> 00:16:54,716 Speaker 1: the American internationalist mindset was. I'm not going to talk 264 00:16:54,756 --> 00:16:57,316 Speaker 1: about the world. This is the American international mindset, which 265 00:16:57,436 --> 00:17:02,916 Speaker 1: was the Coal Wars. Finally, over the global governance infrastructure 266 00:17:02,956 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 1: we and our allies put in place after nineteen forty 267 00:17:05,556 --> 00:17:08,436 Speaker 1: five can actually work. You created the International Criminal Court, 268 00:17:08,436 --> 00:17:11,396 Speaker 1: You're bringing people to account. And I was writing saying, 269 00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:16,636 Speaker 1: you know, instead of just focusing on these big global institutions, 270 00:17:16,716 --> 00:17:19,436 Speaker 1: Let's look at these networks because they can get things 271 00:17:19,556 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 1: done and we need things done. Like if you have 272 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:25,236 Speaker 1: all global environmental ministers and they're all meeting and they 273 00:17:25,276 --> 00:17:28,756 Speaker 1: all adopt a missions controls, we could get something done. 274 00:17:28,996 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 1: And that was still a very optimistic vision of global governance. 275 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:37,956 Speaker 1: Since then, a again, as you pointed out, the CEOs 276 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:42,676 Speaker 1: are more powerful than many many, many of the government leaders. 277 00:17:43,236 --> 00:17:46,276 Speaker 1: And you've also got even civic groups, which I admire. 278 00:17:46,356 --> 00:17:48,396 Speaker 1: But you know, the big eight civic groups they're in 279 00:17:48,436 --> 00:17:53,516 Speaker 1: those rooms too, and you will listeners what you mean 280 00:17:53,556 --> 00:17:59,476 Speaker 1: by that. Yes, sorry, the big eight non governmental organizations OXFAM, Mercy, 281 00:17:59,596 --> 00:18:05,156 Speaker 1: Core Care, Doctors Without Borders, who are great organizations, but 282 00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:07,756 Speaker 1: they have a lot of power because they're very big, 283 00:18:07,796 --> 00:18:12,836 Speaker 1: they're global, and in a way they kind of represent 284 00:18:13,116 --> 00:18:16,796 Speaker 1: global civil society in a lot of these rooms of power. 285 00:18:17,356 --> 00:18:21,476 Speaker 1: And whereas there are many smaller non governmental organizations, civic 286 00:18:21,596 --> 00:18:27,396 Speaker 1: organizations of all kinds, who also feel that they don't 287 00:18:27,436 --> 00:18:29,636 Speaker 1: have power. Many of them are in the global South. 288 00:18:29,676 --> 00:18:33,716 Speaker 1: They are upset about the global North. But the larger picture, 289 00:18:33,996 --> 00:18:37,316 Speaker 1: I think for many people is just as you said 290 00:18:37,356 --> 00:18:43,956 Speaker 1: that there's this deeply networked global elite of people have 291 00:18:43,996 --> 00:18:47,236 Speaker 1: been in government, people who are in business, people who 292 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:52,476 Speaker 1: are at the heads of top universities and top civic organizations, 293 00:18:52,516 --> 00:18:56,036 Speaker 1: the Davos crowd, and I would be counted as one. 294 00:18:56,116 --> 00:18:58,796 Speaker 1: I was going to say, I's gonna say I'm not 295 00:18:59,476 --> 00:19:03,276 Speaker 1: Jack policy planning. The State Department was in the Woodrow 296 00:19:03,316 --> 00:19:06,076 Speaker 1: Wilson at Princeton. Absolutely. That's one of the reasons you 297 00:19:06,076 --> 00:19:07,796 Speaker 1: were so insightful about this, I think is that you 298 00:19:07,836 --> 00:19:12,316 Speaker 1: were telling the story from the inside. So what changed? 299 00:19:12,356 --> 00:19:14,596 Speaker 1: I mean, one one crude way to say it would 300 00:19:14,636 --> 00:19:19,196 Speaker 1: be two thousand and four immediate post Cold War US 301 00:19:19,276 --> 00:19:22,076 Speaker 1: has a very dominant global position, mostly because the Soviets 302 00:19:22,076 --> 00:19:26,316 Speaker 1: have just crumbled. Yes, and so you know, American foreign 303 00:19:26,356 --> 00:19:28,796 Speaker 1: policy thinkers like you are trying to figure out what 304 00:19:28,836 --> 00:19:32,356 Speaker 1: will work right and one possibility is maybe these networks 305 00:19:32,356 --> 00:19:34,756 Speaker 1: would be a way for US to express power without 306 00:19:34,796 --> 00:19:38,276 Speaker 1: pushing people around. You know, they would that that's that's 307 00:19:38,316 --> 00:19:41,156 Speaker 1: maybe what a foreign policy realist, the cynic would say 308 00:19:41,156 --> 00:19:46,316 Speaker 1: about why that looked good? Then what what what turned what? 309 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:48,796 Speaker 1: You could also see it optimistically, right, I mean, people 310 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:50,716 Speaker 1: were well meaning. The Soviet Union was gone. We were 311 00:19:50,716 --> 00:19:52,916 Speaker 1: hoping to really make change in that period of time. 312 00:19:52,956 --> 00:19:55,916 Speaker 1: That's when the International Criminal Court was coming into existence. 313 00:19:56,236 --> 00:20:00,916 Speaker 1: Horrible things happened in Rwanda and Yugoslavia, but we created 314 00:20:00,916 --> 00:20:04,756 Speaker 1: the International Tribunals for Yugoslavia Criminal Tribunalist Yugoslavia and for 315 00:20:04,836 --> 00:20:07,916 Speaker 1: Rwanda in order to respond to those been better if 316 00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:09,236 Speaker 1: they hadn't happened to in the first place, but once 317 00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:10,596 Speaker 1: they happen, at least people were going to be held 318 00:20:10,596 --> 00:20:15,356 Speaker 1: to account. What's happened over the last now nearly twenty years. 319 00:20:16,796 --> 00:20:19,196 Speaker 1: That has made it so clear to you, and I 320 00:20:19,236 --> 00:20:22,316 Speaker 1: think to many observers, at least those who are outside 321 00:20:22,316 --> 00:20:26,276 Speaker 1: of the blob, that the blob isn't working. And I 322 00:20:26,356 --> 00:20:28,756 Speaker 1: mean here, I would just say Donald Trump is just 323 00:20:28,796 --> 00:20:31,476 Speaker 1: a symptom, yes, of a lot of people's feeling that 324 00:20:31,516 --> 00:20:34,716 Speaker 1: it's not working, rather than any kind of a cause 325 00:20:34,756 --> 00:20:38,076 Speaker 1: of it. Yes. And I would add that during that 326 00:20:38,156 --> 00:20:40,156 Speaker 1: same period ninety four to two thousand and four, the 327 00:20:40,156 --> 00:20:43,596 Speaker 1: European Union is becoming a union. Right. So when I 328 00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:46,716 Speaker 1: look at NET, I was looking at networked government structures. 329 00:20:46,796 --> 00:20:49,356 Speaker 1: That is the European Union. It is networks of all 330 00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:53,716 Speaker 1: their officials and it develops a single market, it develops 331 00:20:53,716 --> 00:20:56,436 Speaker 1: a common currency, it comes together as a political union. 332 00:20:56,436 --> 00:21:01,356 Speaker 1: So it was a much more optimistic period for the 333 00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:04,876 Speaker 1: ability to have both law and government capacity at the 334 00:21:04,916 --> 00:21:08,196 Speaker 1: global level. And I saw these networks, if they could 335 00:21:08,236 --> 00:21:11,596 Speaker 1: be more participatory, inclusive and transparent as a big piece 336 00:21:11,596 --> 00:21:16,596 Speaker 1: of it. So what has changed, Well, the starting point, 337 00:21:16,636 --> 00:21:21,076 Speaker 1: I think you would say is that hasn't delivered. Right 338 00:21:21,116 --> 00:21:24,156 Speaker 1: as I sit now, I just have to start from 339 00:21:24,156 --> 00:21:28,236 Speaker 1: the prospect of however imperfect the UN system was, and 340 00:21:28,356 --> 00:21:31,076 Speaker 1: it always was. But before the end of the Cod 341 00:21:31,076 --> 00:21:34,756 Speaker 1: War and after you still you had a Asian financial 342 00:21:34,836 --> 00:21:39,076 Speaker 1: crisis in nineteen ninety seven and the finance ministers came 343 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 1: together and stabilized it. And climate change, we had the 344 00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:47,796 Speaker 1: Kyoto Protocol. There was still global problem solving capacity. Today 345 00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:50,796 Speaker 1: you're looking at a climate that is out of control. 346 00:21:50,916 --> 00:21:53,676 Speaker 1: There we have the Paris Agreement, but nobody thinks that 347 00:21:54,036 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 1: that is going to get us there. We have a 348 00:21:56,636 --> 00:22:01,716 Speaker 1: global pandemic. The who was relatively powerless. You had to 349 00:22:01,756 --> 00:22:05,716 Speaker 1: put together private again and public networks, and even that 350 00:22:05,796 --> 00:22:09,796 Speaker 1: didn't work nearly as well. You have global corruption. Tax 351 00:22:09,796 --> 00:22:13,476 Speaker 1: haven's if you are not just even a member of 352 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:16,556 Speaker 1: the elite looking around much less somebody who's been on 353 00:22:16,596 --> 00:22:20,276 Speaker 1: the losing end of the global economy. You just sense 354 00:22:20,476 --> 00:22:24,756 Speaker 1: that these institutions are talking shops at best, and these 355 00:22:24,796 --> 00:22:29,516 Speaker 1: deals that are being cut are benefiting the privileged at 356 00:22:29,516 --> 00:22:32,196 Speaker 1: the expense of everyone else. So I think there's not 357 00:22:32,396 --> 00:22:36,316 Speaker 1: optimism about what the international system is doing. I do 358 00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:42,076 Speaker 1: also think the Internet is a huge part of this, 359 00:22:42,196 --> 00:22:46,156 Speaker 1: because we now actually have a tangible sense when we 360 00:22:46,236 --> 00:22:50,876 Speaker 1: think about the Worldwide Web of just the extraordinary complexity 361 00:22:50,956 --> 00:22:55,556 Speaker 1: of it all, and with all these different groups coming together, 362 00:22:55,596 --> 00:22:57,756 Speaker 1: and of course they can come together virtually and then 363 00:22:57,876 --> 00:22:59,676 Speaker 1: come together in the dark web, and we have a 364 00:22:59,756 --> 00:23:04,116 Speaker 1: much better sense of all the crime that is a 365 00:23:04,236 --> 00:23:06,356 Speaker 1: part of all those networks. So you know, my book 366 00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:11,436 Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen is about how do we use networks 367 00:23:11,476 --> 00:23:15,436 Speaker 1: to fight criminal networks, how do we use networks to 368 00:23:15,596 --> 00:23:18,716 Speaker 1: undo the power of other networks, or simply how do 369 00:23:18,796 --> 00:23:22,156 Speaker 1: we see a map and try to control networks. So 370 00:23:22,196 --> 00:23:26,116 Speaker 1: it's a far more complex world and a much less 371 00:23:26,156 --> 00:23:41,796 Speaker 1: optimistic one. We'll be right back and what would work? 372 00:23:42,276 --> 00:23:45,316 Speaker 1: What should we be trying to have in place of 373 00:23:45,356 --> 00:23:47,236 Speaker 1: the blog? I mean, so, take the climate change issue, 374 00:23:47,276 --> 00:23:51,556 Speaker 1: which is so pressing that you mentioned we had international agreements. 375 00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:55,356 Speaker 1: We still have some international agreements. They don't look like 376 00:23:55,476 --> 00:24:00,476 Speaker 1: they're enough. That said, climate change remains a global problem, 377 00:24:00,516 --> 00:24:06,036 Speaker 1: and presumably any solution still is going to require coordinated 378 00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:12,956 Speaker 1: global action. So what's going to work? Such a simple question. 379 00:24:13,116 --> 00:24:16,436 Speaker 1: What's going to work? Well, I would just start for 380 00:24:16,476 --> 00:24:18,036 Speaker 1: a reason, we don't don't. We don't bother with the 381 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:21,596 Speaker 1: chit chat. We just dive right in. So I would 382 00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:28,796 Speaker 1: start by saying, any fantasy of world government, or even 383 00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:34,476 Speaker 1: proto world government, cannot work because it's just far too complex. 384 00:24:34,476 --> 00:24:37,356 Speaker 1: So if you look at the UN system, that's a 385 00:24:37,436 --> 00:24:42,116 Speaker 1: proto world government with a hard power core, right, I mean, 386 00:24:42,156 --> 00:24:45,556 Speaker 1: there's the Security Council is a realist core with an 387 00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:50,836 Speaker 1: institutionalist rapping. Because Roosevelt and Stalin and Churchill knew full 388 00:24:50,876 --> 00:24:53,676 Speaker 1: well that if the great powers were not on board, 389 00:24:53,716 --> 00:24:55,836 Speaker 1: you weren't going to get anything done. But they thought 390 00:24:56,396 --> 00:24:59,796 Speaker 1: that there were enough situations where the great powers would 391 00:24:59,796 --> 00:25:03,556 Speaker 1: either be on board or would not block one another, 392 00:25:03,716 --> 00:25:05,716 Speaker 1: that it could work. And I think I think, all 393 00:25:05,756 --> 00:25:08,516 Speaker 1: things considered, the world's been better off with the United 394 00:25:08,596 --> 00:25:12,436 Speaker 1: Nations and without one. But today even if you could 395 00:25:12,516 --> 00:25:17,316 Speaker 1: convene some kind of global conference. It would be crazy 396 00:25:17,356 --> 00:25:19,396 Speaker 1: to try to set something up that look like a 397 00:25:19,396 --> 00:25:23,036 Speaker 1: global executive, a global legislature, so the Security Council, the 398 00:25:23,156 --> 00:25:27,716 Speaker 1: General Assembly, and an international court. No, not that those 399 00:25:27,756 --> 00:25:31,516 Speaker 1: things don't have someplace, But I think of the world 400 00:25:31,676 --> 00:25:35,436 Speaker 1: in network terms. I think of it in the chessboard, 401 00:25:35,476 --> 00:25:39,156 Speaker 1: the world of states and then the web, the world 402 00:25:39,196 --> 00:25:42,036 Speaker 1: of all these networks, and they're superimposed on top of 403 00:25:42,076 --> 00:25:45,716 Speaker 1: each other. And when you're thinking about how are you 404 00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:48,596 Speaker 1: going to solve global problems with both of those, with 405 00:25:48,716 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 1: the state world and this world of network corporations and 406 00:25:52,796 --> 00:25:56,796 Speaker 1: government officials and everybody else and criminals, then I think 407 00:25:56,876 --> 00:26:01,476 Speaker 1: you need to assume there is no one solution. They're 408 00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:04,476 Speaker 1: not even probably even five solutions. But well, let's take 409 00:26:04,516 --> 00:26:09,676 Speaker 1: climate chases as an example. You do need a global agreement. 410 00:26:09,796 --> 00:26:13,036 Speaker 1: The Paris Agreement is quite important because it does set 411 00:26:13,276 --> 00:26:16,916 Speaker 1: it's sort of distill scientific consensus and says this is 412 00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:19,076 Speaker 1: what we're aiming for. You need focal points, and that's 413 00:26:19,076 --> 00:26:22,516 Speaker 1: a focal point. The states at least are talking to 414 00:26:22,556 --> 00:26:24,716 Speaker 1: each other and they keep coming back together. And so 415 00:26:24,756 --> 00:26:29,956 Speaker 1: you have a diplomatic forum, which is useful politically. I 416 00:26:30,036 --> 00:26:33,356 Speaker 1: think the most important part of that is the allowance 417 00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:36,956 Speaker 1: for non party stakeholders, which just means everybody's not a state, 418 00:26:36,996 --> 00:26:40,956 Speaker 1: but who has a huge stake in combating climate change. 419 00:26:41,196 --> 00:26:44,356 Speaker 1: So all the mayors, all the governors. Right, if I'm 420 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:47,916 Speaker 1: thinking about how I want to fight climate change, governors 421 00:26:47,916 --> 00:26:50,596 Speaker 1: of states and mayors of cities who actually have the 422 00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:54,876 Speaker 1: ability to reduce carbon emissions are an enormous piece of 423 00:26:54,916 --> 00:26:57,636 Speaker 1: the puzzle. More so, not more so, but certainly in 424 00:26:57,676 --> 00:27:00,476 Speaker 1: addition to national governments, and you want to talk to 425 00:27:00,516 --> 00:27:07,356 Speaker 1: them directly. The corporate power is vast, right last week 426 00:27:07,556 --> 00:27:11,356 Speaker 1: the activists got to climate activists onto the board of 427 00:27:11,556 --> 00:27:15,636 Speaker 1: Xon of Xon Mobile. If you can change the behavior 428 00:27:15,676 --> 00:27:19,716 Speaker 1: of fossil fuel companies but also many others to get 429 00:27:19,756 --> 00:27:23,876 Speaker 1: them to pledge to zero emissions, then you have many, 430 00:27:23,996 --> 00:27:28,516 Speaker 1: many more levers. But you also then need to empower 431 00:27:28,676 --> 00:27:32,676 Speaker 1: the people who are suffering the most from climate change politically, 432 00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:35,916 Speaker 1: and you need to think about how do you empower 433 00:27:35,996 --> 00:27:39,076 Speaker 1: those voices so that you get the political will Domestically 434 00:27:39,516 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 1: all of that is really messy. I think you can 435 00:27:43,276 --> 00:27:45,876 Speaker 1: That's why I wrote a book about network theory. You 436 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:48,636 Speaker 1: can map it and then you can say, who is 437 00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:52,116 Speaker 1: connected to whom? And these are bad connections. And then 438 00:27:52,156 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 1: you can say, and who is not connected to whom? 439 00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:57,796 Speaker 1: Who needs to be and how do we do that efficiently? 440 00:27:58,556 --> 00:28:01,796 Speaker 1: It can be done, but you need a very different 441 00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:06,636 Speaker 1: way of thinking about global structures. And to your point, 442 00:28:07,276 --> 00:28:11,436 Speaker 1: the power that gets wielded is not people sitting in 443 00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 1: foreign ministers sitting in a you know, paneled room in 444 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:20,516 Speaker 1: Davos making deals. It is power with power of movements, power, 445 00:28:20,956 --> 00:28:24,076 Speaker 1: you know, digital power. It's it's all sorts of really 446 00:28:24,316 --> 00:28:27,956 Speaker 1: messy kinds of power that you have to think about mobilize. 447 00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:31,156 Speaker 1: Let me ask you about that because I have a 448 00:28:31,236 --> 00:28:34,156 Speaker 1: worry about the good side here. I mean the good 449 00:28:34,196 --> 00:28:38,476 Speaker 1: side is, as you say, activists, climate activists on the 450 00:28:38,516 --> 00:28:43,036 Speaker 1: exon board amazing, you know, bring people into the network 451 00:28:43,036 --> 00:28:47,236 Speaker 1: who are from underprivileged backgrounds or from vulnerable communities, whether 452 00:28:47,276 --> 00:28:50,996 Speaker 1: globally or locally excellent. We already saw this past year 453 00:28:51,076 --> 00:28:53,516 Speaker 1: that the fact that there were just a small number, 454 00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:57,036 Speaker 1: but they existed of African Americans who were CEOs of fortune. 455 00:28:57,076 --> 00:29:01,716 Speaker 1: Five hundred companies affected at least to some degree, corporate 456 00:29:01,756 --> 00:29:06,716 Speaker 1: behavior around the Georgia voter suppression laws as I think 457 00:29:06,756 --> 00:29:09,556 Speaker 1: of it. Oh yeah, that all that said, that's all 458 00:29:09,596 --> 00:29:12,716 Speaker 1: the good side. I have this worry that what we're 459 00:29:12,756 --> 00:29:17,636 Speaker 1: really talking about is just slightly changing the conversation by 460 00:29:17,716 --> 00:29:21,316 Speaker 1: virtue of slightly changing who's in the room, when the 461 00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:26,636 Speaker 1: same powerful elites still make the decisions. So Xon, you know, 462 00:29:26,876 --> 00:29:29,796 Speaker 1: two activists is great. They might affect the conversation. They 463 00:29:29,836 --> 00:29:32,996 Speaker 1: don't control the board of directors, and they never will 464 00:29:33,316 --> 00:29:36,796 Speaker 1: because as a numerical matter, we collectively have set up 465 00:29:36,796 --> 00:29:39,916 Speaker 1: corporate governance so that the shareholders who sits on the 466 00:29:39,956 --> 00:29:42,716 Speaker 1: board are those who own the shares, and that's the 467 00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:47,316 Speaker 1: big institutional shareholders, and they're not likely to choose activists 468 00:29:47,316 --> 00:29:49,756 Speaker 1: who would put the businesses into a position of making 469 00:29:49,796 --> 00:29:51,356 Speaker 1: less money. So I guess what I'm trying to say 470 00:29:51,396 --> 00:29:54,396 Speaker 1: is this. I take one of the deep lessons of 471 00:29:54,436 --> 00:29:57,196 Speaker 1: your body of work to be we need to expand 472 00:29:57,236 --> 00:30:01,156 Speaker 1: these networks because the networks are so powerful, and that 473 00:30:01,316 --> 00:30:03,596 Speaker 1: makes it very valuable to expand the networks. But I 474 00:30:03,676 --> 00:30:06,876 Speaker 1: also hear you saying at the same time, you know 475 00:30:07,156 --> 00:30:09,916 Speaker 1: it's not enough just to expand the networks. We would 476 00:30:09,956 --> 00:30:13,156 Speaker 1: need to change the structure of power behind the networks, 477 00:30:13,516 --> 00:30:15,956 Speaker 1: And here sorry for being a bit long winded about this, 478 00:30:15,996 --> 00:30:17,636 Speaker 1: but here it seems to me that the real power 479 00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:21,036 Speaker 1: behind them is global capital. That unlike the Cold War, 480 00:30:21,116 --> 00:30:23,796 Speaker 1: where the real power where the governments, the Eastern Block 481 00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:28,636 Speaker 1: or Western Bloc, today it really is the big corporations 482 00:30:28,716 --> 00:30:31,436 Speaker 1: that just brings so much money to bear, so much 483 00:30:31,476 --> 00:30:35,996 Speaker 1: influence to bear on the governments that they will push 484 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:39,196 Speaker 1: the decision making in a way that serves their interests, which, 485 00:30:39,236 --> 00:30:42,396 Speaker 1: to be fair, means the interests of their shareholders. Am 486 00:30:42,436 --> 00:30:45,196 Speaker 1: I sounding too much like you know the young marks there? 487 00:30:45,436 --> 00:30:47,156 Speaker 1: Or do you think there's do you think there is 488 00:30:47,196 --> 00:30:54,716 Speaker 1: something to it? So first I think again you are correct. 489 00:30:54,876 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 1: I'm trying to be realistic enough to say, look, there's 490 00:30:57,156 --> 00:30:58,956 Speaker 1: never going to be a world where there isn't an 491 00:30:58,956 --> 00:31:01,476 Speaker 1: elite and a power structure, or at least we've never 492 00:31:01,516 --> 00:31:04,156 Speaker 1: seen that in no society. So this so to some 493 00:31:04,236 --> 00:31:08,516 Speaker 1: extent you've just got to accept that. You can say, ours, 494 00:31:08,596 --> 00:31:11,836 Speaker 1: at least in the United States is deeply corrupt. I mean, 495 00:31:11,916 --> 00:31:15,156 Speaker 1: it's so closed and the political system does not allow 496 00:31:15,196 --> 00:31:17,756 Speaker 1: you to change it. But I think what I would 497 00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:20,156 Speaker 1: say in terms of so what do you do with 498 00:31:20,196 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 1: these networks. I'd say two things. One, it's as important 499 00:31:25,756 --> 00:31:32,636 Speaker 1: to disconnect connections that are dangerous or bad as it 500 00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:35,716 Speaker 1: is to connect folks who you need to bring in. 501 00:31:36,036 --> 00:31:38,636 Speaker 1: So it really is when I talk about strategies of 502 00:31:38,716 --> 00:31:41,516 Speaker 1: connection as opposed to strategy of conflict, I'm saying, you've 503 00:31:41,556 --> 00:31:43,796 Speaker 1: got to map this and you've got to see to 504 00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:49,316 Speaker 1: use my example of if you really changed the lobbying laws, 505 00:31:49,396 --> 00:31:52,116 Speaker 1: but more importantly, the campaign finance laws, because that's what 506 00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:57,236 Speaker 1: gets lobbyist power, then you're disrupting the connection between corporate 507 00:31:57,276 --> 00:31:59,636 Speaker 1: America and Congress in a way that is going to 508 00:31:59,716 --> 00:32:03,356 Speaker 1: make it easier for people to get to elect people 509 00:32:03,396 --> 00:32:06,356 Speaker 1: who will represent their interests and not corporate interests. And 510 00:32:06,476 --> 00:32:09,156 Speaker 1: you can do that in many ways. And indeed, a 511 00:32:09,156 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 1: aggressive politics should be about restraining corporate power, not just 512 00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:17,476 Speaker 1: by any trust or other ways, but by really recognizing 513 00:32:17,756 --> 00:32:21,956 Speaker 1: where are those pernicious connections. And again it's not just transparency. 514 00:32:21,956 --> 00:32:23,916 Speaker 1: I think you have to rupture them. So partly I 515 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:29,516 Speaker 1: think you can really restrain corporate power that way. I think, 516 00:32:29,556 --> 00:32:32,276 Speaker 1: on the other hand, a global tax regime. I was 517 00:32:32,276 --> 00:32:34,276 Speaker 1: just reading a new book that's coming out by alec 518 00:32:34,356 --> 00:32:39,556 Speaker 1: Ross about global taxation one global taxation. Those then you 519 00:32:39,636 --> 00:32:43,436 Speaker 1: need to connect up all these tax regimes that right 520 00:32:43,516 --> 00:32:46,956 Speaker 1: now tax lawyers and accountants can manipulate. So again I 521 00:32:46,996 --> 00:32:51,036 Speaker 1: think if you can't, you cannot undo the networked world. 522 00:32:51,156 --> 00:32:54,316 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's always been true and now 523 00:32:54,356 --> 00:32:56,356 Speaker 1: it can be global. So you have to come up 524 00:32:56,396 --> 00:33:00,636 Speaker 1: with strategies of connection and disconnection. And again, the other 525 00:33:00,676 --> 00:33:03,396 Speaker 1: thing I would say, in terms of shifting the power balance, 526 00:33:04,596 --> 00:33:07,236 Speaker 1: imagine if you have what I call an impact hub 527 00:33:07,916 --> 00:33:12,476 Speaker 1: for every sustainable development goal. Sustainable development goals are sort 528 00:33:12,476 --> 00:33:14,676 Speaker 1: of the bible of good things that we would love 529 00:33:14,716 --> 00:33:18,516 Speaker 1: to see happen, and but each one has an impact 530 00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:23,836 Speaker 1: hub that has yes, international organizations represented, but also civic 531 00:33:23,836 --> 00:33:28,196 Speaker 1: groups of all kinds, investments, lots of impact capital, and 532 00:33:28,436 --> 00:33:32,836 Speaker 1: metrics of how are you advancing toward this goal? So 533 00:33:32,916 --> 00:33:36,436 Speaker 1: you can create a You've got networks, but hubs are 534 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:39,196 Speaker 1: where you can actually have people come together, where you 535 00:33:39,196 --> 00:33:43,076 Speaker 1: can also make it much more transparent. But equally importantly, 536 00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:47,996 Speaker 1: you can then have metrics of progress that advocacy can 537 00:33:48,036 --> 00:33:51,676 Speaker 1: mobilize around, politics can mobilize around, and people can be 538 00:33:51,716 --> 00:33:54,076 Speaker 1: called to account. I don't think it's perfect, but I 539 00:33:54,116 --> 00:33:56,836 Speaker 1: think if you look at the Global Alliance for Vaccines 540 00:33:56,876 --> 00:33:59,676 Speaker 1: and Immunization, they've done that. Yeah, let's just say a 541 00:33:59,716 --> 00:34:01,596 Speaker 1: word more. This is a nice place for us to 542 00:34:01,676 --> 00:34:05,716 Speaker 1: wind up about what an impact hub literally is. It's 543 00:34:05,756 --> 00:34:09,756 Speaker 1: an abstract concept. It's an abstract You have a network 544 00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:11,716 Speaker 1: which is lots of different people with lots of different interests. 545 00:34:11,876 --> 00:34:13,956 Speaker 1: I guess they are getting together in the impact What 546 00:34:14,036 --> 00:34:16,356 Speaker 1: is the impact? No? So well, all right, so right 547 00:34:16,396 --> 00:34:19,276 Speaker 1: now you'd say, well, the United Nations is the as 548 00:34:19,316 --> 00:34:23,436 Speaker 1: I held of the system of global governance. Right, everybody 549 00:34:23,436 --> 00:34:26,796 Speaker 1: comes together in New York. I'll take this example of 550 00:34:26,836 --> 00:34:29,916 Speaker 1: the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization. So we have 551 00:34:29,956 --> 00:34:33,036 Speaker 1: a World Health Organization and that's a hub for global health. 552 00:34:33,436 --> 00:34:38,036 Speaker 1: But the Gates Foundation and the World Health Organization and 553 00:34:38,236 --> 00:34:41,596 Speaker 1: a group of pharmaceutical companies and a lot of civic 554 00:34:41,676 --> 00:34:45,076 Speaker 1: organizations came together twenty years ago and said, you know, 555 00:34:45,156 --> 00:34:48,556 Speaker 1: we're going to create an alliance. Very interesting. Alliances used 556 00:34:48,556 --> 00:34:53,956 Speaker 1: to be only states. This is a global alliance of politics, people, 557 00:34:54,276 --> 00:34:59,516 Speaker 1: corporate people, civic people, scientists, universities, and our goals going 558 00:34:59,556 --> 00:35:03,476 Speaker 1: to be to immunize the world's children. And so the 559 00:35:03,556 --> 00:35:07,996 Speaker 1: hub is simply the secretariat. It's much smaller and looser 560 00:35:08,036 --> 00:35:11,356 Speaker 1: than something like the United Nations, but there is something. 561 00:35:11,396 --> 00:35:13,916 Speaker 1: There's a website there, there is a you know, a 562 00:35:14,036 --> 00:35:18,636 Speaker 1: governance structure, and they commit. Then they they have networks 563 00:35:18,636 --> 00:35:21,476 Speaker 1: set up in many different countries, but with a very 564 00:35:21,516 --> 00:35:25,916 Speaker 1: clear goal of immunizing children, and they connect all these 565 00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:31,196 Speaker 1: different actors for measurable impact. So I call that an 566 00:35:31,236 --> 00:35:34,276 Speaker 1: impact hub, and I can imagine doing that around water 567 00:35:34,356 --> 00:35:37,356 Speaker 1: security and climate change is too big, you'd have to 568 00:35:37,396 --> 00:35:40,476 Speaker 1: break it up into different different things. But lots of 569 00:35:40,596 --> 00:35:44,556 Speaker 1: environmental goals, lots of social goals. Health is probably easier 570 00:35:44,596 --> 00:35:48,156 Speaker 1: because it's very measurable. But you know, so if you 571 00:35:48,196 --> 00:35:51,716 Speaker 1: say global peace, not so much. If you talked about 572 00:35:51,956 --> 00:35:55,636 Speaker 1: good jobs, right, and what would that take? You can 573 00:35:55,756 --> 00:36:02,596 Speaker 1: again take this vitangled more ass of networks everywhere and 574 00:36:02,756 --> 00:36:06,956 Speaker 1: start thinking about how do you rationalize them and how 575 00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:11,236 Speaker 1: do you structure them four specific goals And if I 576 00:36:11,356 --> 00:36:15,796 Speaker 1: look at the world, I think about developing those impact 577 00:36:15,916 --> 00:36:18,396 Speaker 1: hubs in many different places, this would not just be 578 00:36:18,476 --> 00:36:21,276 Speaker 1: the North. In ways that would at least give you 579 00:36:21,356 --> 00:36:24,876 Speaker 1: something to start with when you're thinking about actually getting 580 00:36:24,876 --> 00:36:28,876 Speaker 1: these things done. It's fascinating. It also feels ever so 581 00:36:28,956 --> 00:36:33,476 Speaker 1: slightly like coming full circle these alliances that produce the 582 00:36:33,556 --> 00:36:37,516 Speaker 1: impact hubs. One way they differ from the old arrangements 583 00:36:37,716 --> 00:36:39,836 Speaker 1: is that they're not really operating in the same way 584 00:36:40,076 --> 00:36:43,196 Speaker 1: as tools of the big governments, tools of the states. 585 00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:48,636 Speaker 1: They are as you describe them, and Geo's corporations, the 586 00:36:48,756 --> 00:36:51,476 Speaker 1: super mega rich, and so I guess I want to 587 00:36:51,476 --> 00:36:55,316 Speaker 1: close by asking you whether you think, with some others, 588 00:36:55,356 --> 00:36:59,756 Speaker 1: that states are sort of receding in this world, not 589 00:36:59,796 --> 00:37:04,396 Speaker 1: that they're gone, but that they're less important to solving 590 00:37:04,476 --> 00:37:08,076 Speaker 1: stuff than you might have thought of them as being 591 00:37:08,356 --> 00:37:11,996 Speaker 1: twenty five or thirty years ago, because they're part of 592 00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:15,956 Speaker 1: the system that hasn't delivered for people. Or do you 593 00:37:15,956 --> 00:37:18,676 Speaker 1: think they're just as strong and important as ever as 594 00:37:19,436 --> 00:37:22,556 Speaker 1: some days I tend to think, and that these institutions 595 00:37:22,596 --> 00:37:26,516 Speaker 1: are just alternative roots, as it were, for trying to 596 00:37:26,556 --> 00:37:28,756 Speaker 1: get things done when the states don't have an interest. 597 00:37:30,236 --> 00:37:32,996 Speaker 1: So I think states are less powerful than they were 598 00:37:33,116 --> 00:37:35,756 Speaker 1: for sure. Look, the United Nations was designed for a 599 00:37:35,796 --> 00:37:38,356 Speaker 1: world of sixty states, and it's got two hundred states 600 00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:41,716 Speaker 1: and it doesn't work right. The European Union, for all 601 00:37:41,756 --> 00:37:45,596 Speaker 1: of its flaws works because it's got twenty seven states, 602 00:37:45,996 --> 00:37:49,316 Speaker 1: And so part of this, when we talk about global governance, 603 00:37:49,436 --> 00:37:53,156 Speaker 1: is too much, too much bureaucracy, sort of victims of 604 00:37:53,156 --> 00:37:57,196 Speaker 1: its own success. I do think governments have less power, 605 00:37:57,436 --> 00:38:00,876 Speaker 1: but I also think will never address our problems unless 606 00:38:00,916 --> 00:38:05,916 Speaker 1: we strengthen governmental power in lots of ways, certainly around corporations. 607 00:38:05,916 --> 00:38:08,396 Speaker 1: You're never going to get global taxes unless you have 608 00:38:08,516 --> 00:38:13,236 Speaker 1: governments who really come together and enforce it. I also 609 00:38:13,276 --> 00:38:17,156 Speaker 1: think if you really look at at scale, governments have 610 00:38:17,196 --> 00:38:22,316 Speaker 1: a scale that nothing else can reach. But government itself 611 00:38:22,436 --> 00:38:25,916 Speaker 1: has to be reorganized. Right. You've got these huge hierarchies. 612 00:38:25,996 --> 00:38:29,956 Speaker 1: They cannot operate in this world of connection and disconnection 613 00:38:30,116 --> 00:38:35,996 Speaker 1: very well, but they are essential, and as broken as 614 00:38:36,036 --> 00:38:38,676 Speaker 1: I think American democracy is, I'd still rather put my 615 00:38:38,716 --> 00:38:43,116 Speaker 1: faith in the American government that any foundation or corporation. 616 00:38:43,676 --> 00:38:47,076 Speaker 1: What I would say, though, is coming back to power. 617 00:38:47,676 --> 00:38:50,636 Speaker 1: Where do I see real hope in this idea of 618 00:38:50,756 --> 00:38:53,996 Speaker 1: impact hubs. It's more the mayors and the governors. And 619 00:38:54,036 --> 00:38:58,196 Speaker 1: when I think about mayors, that's something any American can think, 620 00:38:58,276 --> 00:39:00,596 Speaker 1: Oh well, wait a minute, I could work in the 621 00:39:00,596 --> 00:39:04,236 Speaker 1: mayor's office. If you want to represent the population of 622 00:39:04,276 --> 00:39:06,916 Speaker 1: the United States. If you bring together the staffs of 623 00:39:06,996 --> 00:39:10,436 Speaker 1: mayors across the country, it is far more representative than 624 00:39:10,476 --> 00:39:14,716 Speaker 1: the Washington bureaucracy. So there is a way there of 625 00:39:14,916 --> 00:39:18,476 Speaker 1: redressing the power balance. You're still going to have elites, 626 00:39:18,636 --> 00:39:22,156 Speaker 1: but it's not this, it's not the Davos elite, right, 627 00:39:22,556 --> 00:39:29,596 Speaker 1: It is more people coming together around specific issues with 628 00:39:29,796 --> 00:39:34,076 Speaker 1: lots again, think about mayors. I think you can redress 629 00:39:34,236 --> 00:39:38,836 Speaker 1: the power balance by opening opening up these networks sort 630 00:39:38,876 --> 00:39:42,596 Speaker 1: of sources of power that are more accessible to regular 631 00:39:42,636 --> 00:39:47,316 Speaker 1: citizens than the kind of calcification of the global elite, 632 00:39:47,316 --> 00:39:51,116 Speaker 1: which is what I think we see now. I'm very 633 00:39:51,196 --> 00:39:55,476 Speaker 1: happy that you're able to end with that modestly optimistic picture, 634 00:39:55,556 --> 00:39:58,636 Speaker 1: and I just want to express gratitude for your brilliance, 635 00:39:58,796 --> 00:40:01,676 Speaker 1: your analysis, your generosity with your time today, and really 636 00:40:01,716 --> 00:40:03,316 Speaker 1: for the whole body of your work. We need people 637 00:40:03,396 --> 00:40:05,556 Speaker 1: like you who are in the inside and then are 638 00:40:05,596 --> 00:40:07,916 Speaker 1: also capable of explaining it to us and then critiquing 639 00:40:07,916 --> 00:40:11,316 Speaker 1: it simultaneously. Thank you so much, well, thank you, what 640 00:40:11,396 --> 00:40:20,236 Speaker 1: a great conversation. One of the reasons I wanted to 641 00:40:20,276 --> 00:40:23,676 Speaker 1: hear from Anne Marie was precisely that she's the leading 642 00:40:23,756 --> 00:40:28,796 Speaker 1: theorist of how networks of powerful people interact in order 643 00:40:28,836 --> 00:40:32,356 Speaker 1: to try to make change and to facilitate international organizations 644 00:40:32,516 --> 00:40:37,156 Speaker 1: doing their job well. Anne Marie laid out very cogently 645 00:40:37,316 --> 00:40:41,636 Speaker 1: and very honestly and self reflectively how her own perceptions 646 00:40:41,676 --> 00:40:44,196 Speaker 1: of the power of those networks has changed over time. 647 00:40:44,916 --> 00:40:47,316 Speaker 1: She is just as committed as she ever was to 648 00:40:47,356 --> 00:40:50,356 Speaker 1: the idea that powers should be deployed equally, that it 649 00:40:50,396 --> 00:40:53,676 Speaker 1: should be deployed fairly, and that it should contribute to 650 00:40:53,716 --> 00:40:58,556 Speaker 1: an order in international relations that is rational, logical, and 651 00:40:58,756 --> 00:41:03,236 Speaker 1: that looks out for fundamental rights and freedoms. Yet she 652 00:41:03,356 --> 00:41:05,956 Speaker 1: herself has come to be skeptical of the way that 653 00:41:06,076 --> 00:41:10,636 Speaker 1: networks of elite international actors are perceived globally, and indeed 654 00:41:10,676 --> 00:41:14,436 Speaker 1: she's even skeptical about whether those same networks can always 655 00:41:14,476 --> 00:41:19,396 Speaker 1: do everything that they set out to do successfully. In short, 656 00:41:19,436 --> 00:41:24,396 Speaker 1: An Marie is describing a trajectory followed by many liberal internationalists, 657 00:41:24,436 --> 00:41:27,636 Speaker 1: among whom I would count myself in the aftermath of 658 00:41:27,636 --> 00:41:31,916 Speaker 1: the Cold War, great hope, optimism, and interest in the 659 00:41:31,956 --> 00:41:36,276 Speaker 1: way that international global networks of thoughtful people making rational 660 00:41:36,316 --> 00:41:39,236 Speaker 1: decisions could make the world a safer and a better place, 661 00:41:39,476 --> 00:41:44,116 Speaker 1: and address long term serious problems, problems that today are 662 00:41:44,156 --> 00:41:47,996 Speaker 1: clearer than ever on issues like climate. Yet, over the 663 00:41:48,076 --> 00:41:51,556 Speaker 1: intervening decades since the end of the Cold War, we've 664 00:41:51,596 --> 00:41:55,276 Speaker 1: been mugged by reality, forced to see the ways in 665 00:41:55,316 --> 00:41:58,876 Speaker 1: which liberal internationalism and the globalization that's come with it 666 00:41:58,956 --> 00:42:03,196 Speaker 1: has left many people behind and disillusioned many many people 667 00:42:03,276 --> 00:42:05,956 Speaker 1: on the left and the right with the way international 668 00:42:05,956 --> 00:42:10,556 Speaker 1: power is deployed under those circumstances. We need new imagining, 669 00:42:10,756 --> 00:42:13,836 Speaker 1: We need new approaches, We need variety in how power 670 00:42:13,836 --> 00:42:16,756 Speaker 1: it is deployed, and we need clarity in terms of 671 00:42:16,796 --> 00:42:19,996 Speaker 1: the goals for which we are trying to deploy power. 672 00:42:21,116 --> 00:42:23,556 Speaker 1: Anne Marie is at the forefront of those drawing our 673 00:42:23,596 --> 00:42:26,556 Speaker 1: attention to the need for those things. It was and 674 00:42:26,596 --> 00:42:29,316 Speaker 1: remains a privilege for me to learn from such a 675 00:42:29,436 --> 00:42:33,436 Speaker 1: vibrant foreign policy intellectual as Anne Marie. I hope and 676 00:42:33,516 --> 00:42:36,236 Speaker 1: trust that you enjoy the conversation as much as I did, 677 00:42:36,756 --> 00:42:38,676 Speaker 1: and I hope you're looking forward as much as I 678 00:42:38,716 --> 00:42:41,876 Speaker 1: am to the next several conversations that we will continue 679 00:42:41,876 --> 00:42:46,236 Speaker 1: to have with foreign policy thinkers about the grand issues 680 00:42:46,556 --> 00:42:50,076 Speaker 1: of America in the world, the transformation of power, and 681 00:42:50,196 --> 00:42:54,596 Speaker 1: what needs to be done in the years ahead, I'll 682 00:42:54,636 --> 00:42:57,396 Speaker 1: admit to regular listeners that I still have unsettled on 683 00:42:57,436 --> 00:43:01,516 Speaker 1: the perfect substitute from my COVID sign off telling you 684 00:43:01,556 --> 00:43:04,796 Speaker 1: all to be careful, be safe, and be well. But 685 00:43:04,916 --> 00:43:06,876 Speaker 1: for the moment, as more and more of us are 686 00:43:06,956 --> 00:43:09,876 Speaker 1: vaccinated and we come closer and closer to being able 687 00:43:09,916 --> 00:43:13,116 Speaker 1: to begin to imagine a safer world, at least here 688 00:43:13,116 --> 00:43:16,796 Speaker 1: in the United States, let me say for now, think 689 00:43:16,836 --> 00:43:22,116 Speaker 1: deep thoughts, be well, and have a little fun. Deep 690 00:43:22,156 --> 00:43:25,436 Speaker 1: background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer 691 00:43:25,516 --> 00:43:28,756 Speaker 1: is Mola Board, our engineer is Ben Tolliday, and our 692 00:43:28,796 --> 00:43:33,596 Speaker 1: showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from noahm Osband. 693 00:43:34,076 --> 00:43:37,476 Speaker 1: Theme music by Luis Gara at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, 694 00:43:37,676 --> 00:43:42,476 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Lydia, Jean Coott, Heather Faine, Carlie Migliori, Maggie Taylor, 695 00:43:42,596 --> 00:43:46,196 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on 696 00:43:46,196 --> 00:43:48,956 Speaker 1: Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column 697 00:43:48,996 --> 00:43:52,156 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at bloomberg dot com. 698 00:43:52,156 --> 00:43:56,316 Speaker 1: Slash Feldman to discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts go 699 00:43:56,396 --> 00:43:59,636 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and if you like 700 00:43:59,756 --> 00:44:02,476 Speaker 1: what you heard today, please write a review or tell 701 00:44:02,516 --> 00:44:05,276 Speaker 1: a friend. This is deep background