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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick. And now October is actually here.

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Speaker 3: It's not just jumping the gun like we were earlier

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Speaker 3: in the week. So if you have been with us

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Speaker 3: on the podcast for a while, you know our tradition,

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Speaker 3: which is that every October, all month long, we fill

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Speaker 3: the show calendar with seasonally creepy stuff. So our core

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Speaker 3: episodes are going to be about all things haunted, gory,

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Speaker 3: and bewitched. And Weird House Cinema episodes for this month

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Speaker 3: are all going to be horror movies. So as we

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Speaker 3: often do, we got started on the celebration a little

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Speaker 3: bit early, earlier this week when it was still September.

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Speaker 3: with the first part in a series on the scarecrow,

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Speaker 3: which is a topic I think I've wanted to do

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Speaker 3: in the Halloween season for several years. We finally got

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Speaker 3: around to it. So in that first episode earlier this week,

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Speaker 3: we talked about and read pieces from the Nathaniel Hawthorne

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Speaker 3: short story Feathertop from 1852, which is about a scarecrow

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Speaker 3: that is brought to life on the whims of a

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Speaker 3: New England witch. Maybe part.

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Speaker 3: In part, just feeling the day out, part trying to

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Speaker 3: get some revenge on a magistrate judge. She brings a

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Speaker 3: scarecrow to life and then sends it off to woo

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Speaker 3: the judge's daughter. And in the end of the story,

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Speaker 3: it is used to illustrate a point the author wants

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Speaker 3: to make about human falsity and our general lack of

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Speaker 3: character and substance. And after that, we went through a

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Speaker 3: short taxonomy of horror scarecrow types, including the scarecrow as

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Speaker 3: illusion or false man. The scarecrow as a kind of

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Speaker 3: straw zombie and the scarecrow as religious icon, a sort

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Speaker 3: of lord of the fields or agricultural deity. And we'll

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Speaker 3: come back to that theme in today's episode. After that,

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Speaker 3: we talked about precedent for the scarecrow principle in nature,

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Speaker 3: exploring the question of whether there are any non-human animals involved.

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Speaker 3: that make a false copy of their own body form

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Speaker 3: out of inanimate objects to guide the behavior of other

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Speaker 3: animals or to trick them. Answer to that question seems

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Speaker 3: like a solid maybe. The most interesting potential example, Rob,

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Speaker 3: that you found was in the behavior of certain spiders.

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Speaker 3: But after that, we talked about a couple of interesting

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Speaker 3: references to scarecrows or human effigies more generally in the

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Speaker 3: Hebrew Bible. And today we're back to keep the Scarecrow

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Speaker 3: Talk going.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we have a lot to talk about. And

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Speaker 2: as is always the case, you know, we get into

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Speaker 2: one of these topics and it just makes us a

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Speaker 2: little more alert to how widespread a given thing is

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Speaker 2: in our surrounding culture.

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Speaker 3: Are you also botter-meinhoffing everything we do on the show? Suddenly,

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Speaker 3: as soon as you're researching it, it's everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it becomes an obsession for a week

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Speaker 2: or two. But also, you just have heightened awareness. For instance,

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Speaker 2: this morning, me and my family were looking up different

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Speaker 2: Asian snacks and treats that you can order in bulk online,

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Speaker 2: and we ran across these Bin Bin rice crackers. I've

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Speaker 2: included an image here for you, Joe, and folks at home,

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Speaker 2: you can look up images of Bin Bin rice crackers.

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Speaker 2: It often has a scarecrow on the label. Certainly, the

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Speaker 2: version that came up for me initially has a cute

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Speaker 2: little scarecrow, very much a, The exact sort of scarecrow

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Speaker 2: that you would expect to find just throughout, you know,

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Speaker 2: autumn and Halloween imagery definitely here displayed for the cute factor.

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Speaker 3: Though to my American eye, it reads as Christmas colors

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Speaker 3: because it's like red and forest green and white. So

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Speaker 3: it's kind of scarecrow by way of the nutcracker.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And certainly, you know, scarecrows of different types

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Speaker 2: have long been associated with agricultural practices and certainly something

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Speaker 2: like this might have been used in an Asian rice field.

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Speaker 2: But I also wouldn't read too much into this particular

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Speaker 2: scarecrow because I was able to pull up other examples

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Speaker 2: of bim-bim crackers that had like snowmen on the front.

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Speaker 2: So I think cute is mostly the reason here.

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Speaker 3: What's the common thread there? You could say both inanimate

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Speaker 3: representations of human body forms placed in the area surrounding

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Speaker 3: one's home and under different circumstances. Maybe both could be

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Speaker 3: cute or creepy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess these also might be seasonal labels,

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Speaker 2: you know, where it's like, okay, it's autumn, people like scarecrows.

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Speaker 2: So who doesn't love a cute scarecrow? Let's put one

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Speaker 2: on the label, that sort of thing. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: just how ubiquitous the scarecrow has become. You know, and

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Speaker 2: I think more often than not, it's not presented to

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Speaker 2: something scary. It's just something sort of quaint and folksy,

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Speaker 2: non-threatening to just about everyone, really. which kind of leads

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Speaker 2: into our next discussion, right? Right.

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Speaker 3: So we wanted to talk about the question, does Scarecrows

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Speaker 3: actually work? Sometimes you think about it and you're like,

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Speaker 3: could birds be that dumb? Does it really work on them? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And this is where the Scarecrow iconography comes into place

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Speaker 2: because I don't think this is something you find in

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Speaker 2: like a particular work of art. I think this is

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Speaker 2: more of like pop and folk art and just sort

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Speaker 2: of like general art autumn, fall, Halloween decorations. But a

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Speaker 2: lot of the time, what do you see on a scarecrow?

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Speaker 2: You see a crow or a raven or some sort

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Speaker 2: of a bird perched there on its shoulder. And even

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Speaker 2: though it's maybe not explored a lot in the content

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Speaker 2: or the message has been kind of lost via repetition,

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Speaker 2: but there's a general sense that this technology must not

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Speaker 2: work all that well because the bird is right there

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Speaker 2: on the shoulder. How much scaring is this thing actually

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Speaker 2: pulling off?

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Speaker 3: Bird perching on or even attacking the scarecrow is a

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Speaker 3: motif that goes back into ancient literature, as we will

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Speaker 3: discuss later today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it seems like built into our understanding of it

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Speaker 2: is this idea that it doesn't work. So to back

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Speaker 2: up a little bit, we'll remind everyone that scarecrows, again,

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Speaker 2: are a specific tactic found in the larger category of

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Speaker 2: bird scaring, by which humans attempt to disrupt avian behavior

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Speaker 2: by scaring them. And there are plenty of active ways

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Speaker 2: to scare birds, including using loud noises, which was one

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Speaker 2: of the many bird scaring and bird killing techniques used

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Speaker 2: in the Eliminate Sparrows campaign of China's Great Leap Forward,

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Speaker 2: which ultimately killed hundreds of millions of sparrows, resulting in

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Speaker 2: ecological imbalance. So this is certainly one of those tactics

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Speaker 2: that does work. And it's worth noting that bird scaring is,

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Speaker 2: in general, is also something animals do without technology. Like

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Speaker 2: you don't need technology to scare a bird. Um, there, there,

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Speaker 2: a bird is going to be aware of its environment

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Speaker 2: and it's making a lot of, um, judgment calls based

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Speaker 2: on perceived threats in its environment.

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Speaker 3: I scare birds every time I take out the garbage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I walk around the corner, go past the

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Speaker 3: bush and then something flutters out, flies away. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I didn't even know it was there.

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Speaker 2: The advantage of using a scarecrow, uh, is, of course,

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Speaker 2: that it's generally a passive rather than active technology. Now,

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Speaker 2: certainly there are examples where you have someone actively out

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Speaker 2: there in the field to scare the birds. But here,

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Speaker 2: that person can take a break, and you just leave

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Speaker 2: an effigy in its place. You use a decoy in

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Speaker 2: its place. And then the question is, does this actually work? Well,

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Speaker 2: we ran across some good sources on this. We do

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Speaker 2: want to highlight that there's a great Mental Floss article

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Speaker 2: from 2023 by Mark Mancini titled, Do Scarecrows Actually Work?,

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Speaker 2: which provides a nice overview and cites some key studies,

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Speaker 2: which we're gonna walk through some of these here, but

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Speaker 2: I highly recommend that Mental Floss article for a nice

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Speaker 2: brief overview if you wanna check that out. One of

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Speaker 2: the sources that's cited in this is bird harassment, repellent,

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Speaker 2: and deterrent techniques for use on and near airports by

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Speaker 2: Gerald L. Bellant, which actually breaks down different bird scaring

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Speaker 2: techniques including various visual tactics that range from effigies or decoys,

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Speaker 2: like we're talking about here, to things like mirrors and

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Speaker 2: lights and lasers.

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Speaker 3: Oh, Din, in airports, have they ever actually used traditional scarecrows,

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Speaker 3: like clothes stuffed with straw?

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Speaker 2: I don't know the exact answer to that. It seems

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Speaker 2: like I wouldn't rule it out, but I think for

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Speaker 2: the most part, they're past that. They're into figuring out

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Speaker 2: what will work more dependably. But the effect, as the

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Speaker 2: author here outlines, you can achieve this via visual stimuli

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Speaker 2: that's just novel or startling. It can be something the

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Speaker 2: bird might associate with danger. It can be the actual

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Speaker 2: visual presence of real predators, dogs or falcons, a simulated predator,

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Speaker 2: the result of a predator attack, a dead body, for example,

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Speaker 2: dead birds, that sort of thing, or something just unfamiliar

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Speaker 2: that the bird is going to avoid. Because again, the

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Speaker 2: bird is going to be, bird or birds are going

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Speaker 2: to be making these judgment calls, this active threat analysis.

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Speaker 2: And it might not even be like, oh, I think

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Speaker 2: there's a predator down there. Maybe I shouldn't land there.

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Speaker 2: It could just be like, I don't know what's going

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Speaker 2: on down there. So it's not worth the risk. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of prey birds are just going to

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Speaker 3: play it safe. You know, if it's questionable, why mess around?

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Speaker 2: But broadly speaking, the author here points out that the

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Speaker 2: use of effigies like scarecrows The effectiveness is just going

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Speaker 2: to really depend on the type of effigy you're using,

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Speaker 2: the species being targeted, and what you're trying to keep

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Speaker 2: them away from.

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Speaker 3: So, like, it makes a difference. whether the target that

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Speaker 3: you're protecting is high value or not?

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So citing a 2002 study from Gilsdorf

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Speaker 2: et al., he points out that scarecrows are on the

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Speaker 2: whole more effective if they have realistic human shape and

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Speaker 2: realistic facial features. And I found that interesting because if

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Speaker 2: you look at scarecrow dressings, sort of the stereotypical scarecrows,

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Speaker 2: you'd assume that birds must be very forgiving of shape

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Speaker 2: and face because it's generally a bit rough around the edges, right?

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Speaker 3: I always assume when I see a scarecrow with a face,

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Speaker 3: that face is just there for the person making the

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Speaker 3: scarecrow to have fun with.

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Speaker 2: That's art. That's art.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I saw some just doing some image searches where the

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Speaker 2: face is a bird's face. Like they decided to get

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Speaker 2: that playful with it. But I mean, it sounds like

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Speaker 2: the face is important and you can't just draw any

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Speaker 2: old thing on there. It needs to be somewhat realistic. Wow. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I was surprised by this, but it seems like

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Speaker 2: it makes a difference. And then citing a 1990 study

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Speaker 2: from Littauer, he points out that bright color can also

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Speaker 2: increase detectability. This study, by the way, involved, and there

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Speaker 2: are a number of these that get into this sort

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Speaker 2: of area, using mechanical pop-up scarecrows to add movement to

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Speaker 2: the scenario. So that's something you see in a lot

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Speaker 2: of these. The realization that the scarecrow is not going

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Speaker 2: to be that effective. What it needs is some sort

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Speaker 2: of random lunging involved, and that's going to involve some

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Speaker 2: sort of mechanical apparatus or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Let's see. He also points to a couple of studies

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Speaker 2: that demonstrated success with humanoid scarecrows at ponds in one

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Speaker 2: 1980 study resulting in a 95 percent decline in birds

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Speaker 2: visiting that pond. So extremely effective in that study. But

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Speaker 2: it concerns, you know, keeping ducks away from a pond. Again,

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Speaker 2: species and areas of the determine are going to be

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Speaker 2: key here. Like, what are you trying to keep away?

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Speaker 2: What are you trying to keep them away from?

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Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then, let's see, citing a key 1986 paper by

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Speaker 2: Cummings et al., they point out an important factor in

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Speaker 2: all of this is that, and this is something you

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Speaker 2: see time and time again in any kind of study

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Speaker 2: involving scarecrows, is that over time, birds seem to just

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Speaker 2: get used to the scarecrow. They realize that it's not

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Speaker 2: an actual threat. It's not a real person, no matter

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Speaker 2: what it looks like. And additionally, sometimes feeding patterns are

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Speaker 2: just like too deeply ingrained in the birds to keep

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Speaker 2: them away from the food source that you're trying to protect.

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Speaker 3: So what exactly does that mean?

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Speaker 2: So it's like if I stop at the same breakfast

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Speaker 2: burrito place every Thursday and then one day it looks

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Speaker 2: like there's an actual slasher killer out in front of

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Speaker 2: the restaurant, I might just skip it that day and

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Speaker 2: go on. But if it becomes clear or at least

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Speaker 2: likely that it's not a real slasher killer and I'm

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Speaker 2: so set in my ways that I'm coming by here

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Speaker 2: anyway for my fix, then I'm probably not staying away

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Speaker 2: for long. And birds are pretty much the same, you know,

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Speaker 2: as we've discussed before. They can be quite smart. And

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Speaker 2: in all cases, we're dealing with creatures that have evolved

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Speaker 2: to be fine-tuned exploiters of their own environment. And threat

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Speaker 2: analysis is part of that package. Okay.

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Speaker 3: But if I'm understanding the feeding pattern thing correctly, it's

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Speaker 3: the idea that a persistence in a feeding habit may

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Speaker 3: be a stronger overcoming drive than, say, a bird trying

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Speaker 3: out a new location to feed or something.

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Speaker 2: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and it's

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Speaker 2: just like two of the main factors here. So we'll

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Speaker 2: get into what this means here. So they also cite

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Speaker 2: an interesting 2002 study from Tillman et al., which found

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Speaker 2: that the use of effigies of dead vultures were highly

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Speaker 2: effective at keeping black vultures and turkey vultures away from airfields.

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Speaker 2: So this is a specific example of the whole, you know,

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Speaker 2: images of the dead or the actual dead. might make

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Speaker 2: the bird associate that with danger. Be like, that's a

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Speaker 2: place where buzzards go to die. That's not where I

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Speaker 2: want to go to.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if it needs to specifically be the same

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Speaker 3: kind of bird that I am to scare me away.

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Speaker 2: That's a good question. Yeah. I mean, I think that's

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Speaker 2: the way our minds often end up working. I was

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Speaker 2: reading a book titled In the Company of Crows and

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Speaker 2: Ravens by John M. Marsloff and Tony Angele. And they

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Speaker 2: mention the allegedly effective practice in the past of hanging

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Speaker 2: dead crows from the fence or some other structure to

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Speaker 2: keep their brethren away from, you know, like a crop,

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Speaker 2: because the idea is they would then associate the presence

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Speaker 2: of their own dead with danger. So I guess on

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Speaker 2: one level, we might match that up with the vulture

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Speaker 2: study here. But I have to stress, this also feels

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Speaker 2: a bit too much like the concept of human vengeance.

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Speaker 2: And human vengeance may often be feel like it's helping

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Speaker 2: and it may feel like it's emotionally solving a problem

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Speaker 2: while not actually solving a problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That is the kind of thing I could imagine a

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Speaker 3: farmer of days gone by doing and thinking, yep, this

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Speaker 3: really works and whether it does or not. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know, undecided on that because it does

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Speaker 2: seem like there is some study-based evidence that it works

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Speaker 2: with vultures at least. So who knows? Let's see. A

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Speaker 2: similar short term defectiveness seems to apply to predator stationary

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Speaker 2: effigies such as hawks. You know, this is where this

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Speaker 2: seems like it's also effective, but only in the short term.

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Speaker 2: Reading that some birds will mob owl effigies and knock

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Speaker 2: them over blackbirds and crows in particular. And this is

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Speaker 2: something in my own backyard. I have one of those

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Speaker 2: plastic owls overlooks our garden. And I'm always having to

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Speaker 2: pick it up. It's not positioned in a way that

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Speaker 2: I can ever observe what's happening. So it might just

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Speaker 2: be the wind. But I often think, oh, the birds

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Speaker 2: got it. The birds ambushed my poor plastic owl and

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Speaker 2: he's just laying useless on the ground.

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Speaker 3: We've got a few plastic owls around the neighborhood. And

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Speaker 3: my daughter always thinks they're cute when we walk by.

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Speaker 3: And it just now occurred to me for the first

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Speaker 3: time that they might be scarecrows.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's one of those things like like scarecrows, like the.

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Speaker 2: the icon just becomes fun and separated from its usage.

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Speaker 2: I have a friend who has two of these in

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Speaker 2: his dining room. I know they're not keeping birds away

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Speaker 2: from any crops in there, but I think he just

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Speaker 2: ended up liking them or his kids liked them, so

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Speaker 2: they're just sitting in his living room. It's fine. Nice. Now,

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Speaker 2: I was also looking at a paper. This one is

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Speaker 2: frequently cited in articles covering scarecrow effectiveness. This is a

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Speaker 2: new wrinkle on an old method, successful use of scarecrows

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Speaker 2: as a non-lethal method to prevent bird damage to field

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Speaker 2: crops in Israel, 2006, by Nemtsov and Galili. And in

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Speaker 2: this one, basically what they found is that they would

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Speaker 2: put these yellow outfits on their scarecrows. After They've had

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Speaker 2: farmers wear yellow rain suits when they're conducting live bird

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Speaker 2: harassment activities or sometimes engaging in other activities. So there's

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Speaker 2: some sort of like active enforcement of the idea that

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Speaker 2: like yellow clothing, bright yellow clothing equals active human figures.

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Speaker 2: And then they're able to sort of enforce the effectiveness

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Speaker 2: of their scarecrows by doing this. Interesting. Okay.

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Speaker 3: So they're getting to piggyback an extra association from the

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Speaker 3: fear lingering from like active discouragement by having that color there,

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Speaker 3: the color in common.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like a form of advertising. Like you think

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Speaker 2: of like a complex advertising campaign. It's like you can

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Speaker 2: put the billboard out there. People are going to notice

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Speaker 2: it at first, but they're going to become blind to it.

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Speaker 2: You got to do other things. You need some radio spots.

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Speaker 2: You need some word of mouth. And in a way,

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Speaker 2: the yellow rain slicker idea here is kind of like

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Speaker 2: word of mouth. It's like, get the word out there.

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Speaker 2: Are you hearing about these scarecrows? They're really scary, man.

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Speaker 3: Well, it reminds me of those radio ads you used

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Speaker 3: to hear sometimes that would have traffic sounds in them,

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Speaker 3: like a blasting horn in the ad. You remember that?

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Speaker 2: Oh, vaguely. Yeah, I know this sort of thing. I

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Speaker 2: hate it when it even comes up in music or something.

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Speaker 2: It's like, come on, don't get anything alarming in there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it gets your attention, doesn't it?

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Speaker 2: It does, yeah. And yeah, I think that's a big

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Speaker 2: part of it because, you know, pretty much anywhere you look,

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Speaker 2: and this is something that Mancini drives some of that

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00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,899
Speaker 2: mental flaws article as well, is that a stationary scarecrow

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Speaker 2: is just, it's only going to be effective in a

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Speaker 2: temporary fashion. Birds are going to learn, they're going to

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Speaker 2: adapt once they've figured out what the novel stimuli is

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Speaker 2: all about. And then there are just all these different

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Speaker 2: ways that people have jazzed it up. Mechanized movements, added lights,

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Speaker 2: the use of digital scarecrows with infrared eyes and supersonic

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Speaker 2: wave emitters. Apparently these are far more effective, but at

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Speaker 2: least speaking from the standpoint of Halloween and autumn decoration,

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Speaker 2: these don't really feel like scarecrows as much to me,

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Speaker 2: not in the traditional sense. It seems like we're getting

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Speaker 2: closer to the idea of robotic humanoid as opposed to

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Speaker 2: just scarecrow humanoid.

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Speaker 3: Isn't it funny that as a stimulus becomes more effective

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Speaker 3: at consistently scaring birds, it It becomes less scary to us.

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Speaker 3: It's less effective as a symbol for horror.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Like even just one that pops up and moves. That's

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Speaker 3: less scary than one just hanging there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, it reminds me a little

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Speaker 2: bit of actually coming back to Halloween Haunted. attractions, you know,

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Speaker 2: haunted houses, if you will. Going through a really good one,

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Speaker 2: you're going to have a mix of different tactics. And

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Speaker 2: some of them are going to be very much some

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Speaker 2: sort of mechanical situation where it's just some sort of

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Speaker 2: a ghoul on sticks, essentially a scarecrow. And there's a timer,

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Speaker 2: there's some sort of hydraulic or some sort of mechanism

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Speaker 2: that just kind of launches it at you and then

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Speaker 2: draws it back. And that'll startle you for a second,

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Speaker 2: but then you laugh because it looks kind of stupid.

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Speaker 2: But a good haunted house is going to combine that

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Speaker 2: with live actors. And you might get like the one-two.

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Speaker 2: They love to do that, the misdirection of like, oh,

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Speaker 2: here's the fake mechanized thing. And then, oh Lord, here's

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Speaker 2: somebody in an actual costume. Yeah. So, yeah. So, again,

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Speaker 2: these sort of elements of deception are just widespread throughout

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Speaker 2: our culture.

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Speaker 3: But can I posit something? So you go in the

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Speaker 3: haunted house and you get something that moves, bursts out

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Speaker 3: at you on a, you know, retractor rail or something.

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Speaker 3: And that's, oh, startled. Then you laugh. But the thing

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Speaker 3: you walk away thinking about that's in your nightmare later

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00:20:53,570 --> 00:20:56,149
Speaker 3: was some static image from the haunted house.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it often? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right.

383
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Speaker 2: And you certainly go through the haunted house with your

384
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Speaker 2: hackles raised. You're ready for things to jump out at you.

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Speaker 2: And then that wears off eventually after you leave the

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Speaker 2: haunted house. And it's the same with birds. After they

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00:21:14,780 --> 00:21:17,300
Speaker 2: have stopped encountering the scarecrows, they're going to get used

388
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Speaker 2: to it. And then when they come back and the

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00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,379
Speaker 2: scarecrows aren't doing anything different, you know, certainly if they're stationary,

390
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,140
Speaker 2: they're going to get used to that as well. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I guess on the human side, for the horror potency thing,

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Speaker 3: I think it's just like mysteriousness. Like an unmoving thing

393
00:21:32,990 --> 00:21:35,530
Speaker 3: is more mysterious. You wonder about it more.

394
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Now, the basic idea of just giving a

395
00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:41,550
Speaker 2: scarecrow some sort of movement, I mean, this in and

396
00:21:41,590 --> 00:21:43,650
Speaker 2: of itself goes back a long ways. You don't need

397
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Speaker 2: hydraulics or any kind of advanced technology to just make

398
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:51,859
Speaker 2: a scarecrow move. If it's exposed to the wind and

399
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,469
Speaker 2: you have the right construction... like that is going to

400
00:21:54,570 --> 00:21:57,770
Speaker 2: move it. You know, it might not easily enable some

401
00:21:57,790 --> 00:21:59,970
Speaker 2: of the lunging and launching movements found in some of

402
00:22:00,010 --> 00:22:03,550
Speaker 2: these studies, but it has historically allowed farmers in the U.S.

403
00:22:03,609 --> 00:22:06,490
Speaker 2: and Japan to do things like affix bells or other

404
00:22:06,530 --> 00:22:11,389
Speaker 2: noise-making implements to a decoy. I'm reminded, too, of basic,

405
00:22:11,490 --> 00:22:15,130
Speaker 2: you know, whirly gigs that have been used as bird deterrents,

406
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:18,629
Speaker 2: moving and spinning when activated by the wind, connected in

407
00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:22,740
Speaker 2: principle to ancient wind power technologies for irrigation and and

408
00:22:22,790 --> 00:22:25,530
Speaker 2: wind detection, as well as just novelty toys. You know,

409
00:22:25,570 --> 00:22:28,250
Speaker 2: this idea that, oh yeah, the wind's blowing, you can

410
00:22:28,890 --> 00:22:31,109
Speaker 2: craft something that interacts with that wind.

411
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Speaker 3: So to summarize and review on this, do scarecrows actually work?

412
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:40,810
Speaker 3: The answer seems to be, it really depends. And so

413
00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:45,230
Speaker 3: your traditional non-moving scarecrow may work at first, but usually

414
00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:47,689
Speaker 3: most birds are going to get used to that over time.

415
00:22:48,260 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 3: Movement helps other different kinds of more exciting stimuli make

416
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,260
Speaker 3: them more effective in most cases, but it's going to

417
00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 3: depend on the type of bird, the thing you're trying

418
00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 3: to keep the birds away from, and the bird's relationship

419
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 3: to that thing, and all of these intrinsic properties of

420
00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 3: the scarecrow itself.

421
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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the more I think about it,

422
00:23:09,650 --> 00:23:11,389
Speaker 2: I think that this is all wrapped up, even at

423
00:23:11,510 --> 00:23:14,230
Speaker 2: like a subconscious level, in our fascination with the scarecrow,

424
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Speaker 2: because it does kind of represent this... idea that I'm

425
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Speaker 2: going to put a lot of work into something, or

426
00:23:18,970 --> 00:23:21,109
Speaker 2: at least a fair amount of work into something, and

427
00:23:21,150 --> 00:23:24,390
Speaker 2: then I'm going to solve my problems moving forward. And then,

428
00:23:24,410 --> 00:23:27,020
Speaker 2: you know, lo and behold, this kind of passive measure

429
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,420
Speaker 2: isn't going to be effective very long. And it also

430
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,980
Speaker 2: is kind of like an interesting, like, man and technology

431
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: versus nature scenario that reminds me of our recent Weird

432
00:23:37,060 --> 00:23:40,350
Speaker 2: House Cinema episode of Unknown Origin, the part where they're

433
00:23:40,369 --> 00:23:44,929
Speaker 2: talking about, like, man versus rat. You're thinking about the rat, what, 20%

434
00:23:44,930 --> 00:23:47,689
Speaker 2: of your day, maybe less. The rat's thinking about you 100%

435
00:23:47,690 --> 00:23:50,429
Speaker 2: of the day. And so the scarecrow is kind of

436
00:23:50,450 --> 00:23:52,550
Speaker 2: like this example of like, you chose to think about

437
00:23:53,070 --> 00:23:56,090
Speaker 2: the birds for a certain amount of your day, but

438
00:23:56,130 --> 00:23:59,619
Speaker 2: they are relentless. This is their, their all the time. Uh,

439
00:23:59,670 --> 00:24:02,219
Speaker 2: so eventually like they're just going to figure out what

440
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,859
Speaker 2: you're doing unless you too are putting in the time

441
00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:08,540
Speaker 2: and finding ways to jazz up that scarecrow, uh, and

442
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: make it more effective. Hmm. Yeah. It's an active world

443
00:24:12,980 --> 00:24:15,980
Speaker 2: and passive measures are only going to be effective for

444
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:16,420
Speaker 2: so long.

445
00:24:17,180 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 3: Well said. Well, Rob, are you ready to talk about

446
00:24:30,380 --> 00:24:31,660
Speaker 3: a sexual scarecrow?

447
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: I trust you, so I will say yes.

448
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,900
Speaker 3: So one claim that I came across several times in

449
00:24:41,090 --> 00:24:45,230
Speaker 3: more general sources reading about the history of scarecrows was

450
00:24:45,310 --> 00:24:50,170
Speaker 3: the idea that in ancient Greek and Roman culture, the

451
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:56,020
Speaker 3: functional role of the scarecrow was often played by representations

452
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 3: of a maybe surprising figure from the Pantheon, the god Priapus.

453
00:25:02,580 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 3: That name's probably ringing a bell with a lot of people.

454
00:25:05,470 --> 00:25:11,990
Speaker 3: Priapus is the Greco-Roman god associated with fertility, marriage, livestock,

455
00:25:12,170 --> 00:25:17,379
Speaker 3: gardens and fruits, and with male genitalia. In bodily form,

456
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,020
Speaker 3: this is a male god depicted as having a huge,

457
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,500
Speaker 3: often comically large erection. You can look up pictures for

458
00:25:25,540 --> 00:25:28,290
Speaker 3: yourself if you want to see them. Uh, uh, I've

459
00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:29,989
Speaker 3: got a few examples for you to look at here

460
00:25:30,010 --> 00:25:32,170
Speaker 3: in the outline, Rob. Uh, one thing I would say

461
00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:35,250
Speaker 3: is that of course there are lots of Roman depictions

462
00:25:35,490 --> 00:25:37,990
Speaker 3: of Priapus. Uh, you know, they were not shy about

463
00:25:38,030 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 3: depicting this God and they range from actually kind of

464
00:25:43,580 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: strangely solemn looking, which actually, which makes them funnier to

465
00:25:47,540 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 3: the ones that seem to be intentionally funny. So, uh,

466
00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 3: I decided to look for references to this, uh, priapus

467
00:25:56,660 --> 00:26:00,139
Speaker 3: as scarecrow claim in credible academic works, and I found

468
00:26:00,180 --> 00:26:04,479
Speaker 3: that yes, indeed, it seems that if you brought up

469
00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:08,060
Speaker 3: the concept of a scarecrow to an ancient Greek or

470
00:26:08,140 --> 00:26:12,669
Speaker 3: Roman farmer, they might not think about a feed bag

471
00:26:12,770 --> 00:26:16,450
Speaker 3: stuffed with straw and a pumpkin head, but instead might

472
00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:19,570
Speaker 3: think first of a statue of a god with a

473
00:26:19,670 --> 00:26:24,070
Speaker 3: monstrous and holy phallus. So one good source I found

474
00:26:24,109 --> 00:26:27,869
Speaker 3: discussing this was a book called Birds in Roman Life

475
00:26:28,050 --> 00:26:31,210
Speaker 3: and Myth by a scholar named Ashley Green, who is

476
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,180
Speaker 3: affiliated with the University of Melbourne in Australia. This book

477
00:26:35,220 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 3: was published by Taylor and Francis 2023. Uh, so the

478
00:26:39,380 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 3: book as a whole is focused on the significance of

479
00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:45,460
Speaker 3: birds in ancient Roman culture and covers a lot of stuff.

480
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,659
Speaker 3: For example, uh, the role of birds in auspices, uh,

481
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 3: And things like attempts to attract songbirds to dedicated gardens

482
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 3: so that rich people could observe the songbirds for pleasure.

483
00:26:58,220 --> 00:27:01,629
Speaker 3: You know, cultivating bird gardens was apparently a thing for

484
00:27:01,650 --> 00:27:04,869
Speaker 3: the rich in ancient Rome. But there is specifically a

485
00:27:04,970 --> 00:27:09,510
Speaker 3: section entitled Pest Birds that gets directly into the subject

486
00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: of these Praeapus scarecrows. So obviously, then and there, as

487
00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:20,109
Speaker 3: here and now, birds caused a lot of agricultural losses.

488
00:27:20,830 --> 00:27:24,109
Speaker 3: Green quotes a prayer to the goddess Ceres, the goddess

489
00:27:24,150 --> 00:27:28,490
Speaker 3: of agriculture and grain crops. And the prayer, I think

490
00:27:28,550 --> 00:27:31,710
Speaker 3: it's also a prayer to the earth figure, but to

491
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:35,109
Speaker 3: Ceres and the earth. And the prayer says, forbid the birds,

492
00:27:35,290 --> 00:27:38,550
Speaker 3: pests of the tilled land, to devastate the fields of

493
00:27:38,650 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 3: corn with their destructive flocks. And note here, the reference

494
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,500
Speaker 3: to corn would not be to maize crops, which we

495
00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 3: often call corn today, but it would be the archaic

496
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,610
Speaker 3: usage of corn, which generically meant like grains or seed crops. So,

497
00:27:53,910 --> 00:27:55,730
Speaker 3: you know, you could pray to Ceres, you could say,

498
00:27:55,770 --> 00:27:58,709
Speaker 3: please help protect my crops from birds, but sometimes you

499
00:27:58,750 --> 00:28:03,910
Speaker 3: need more than prayers. So Green writes, quote, Priapus also called,

500
00:28:04,410 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: I'm sorry if I pronounced this wrong, Mutinus Tutinus, is

501
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 3: an unmistakable Latin deity who promoted fertility and protected from

502
00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 3: the evil eye. He also had the task of keeping

503
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,670
Speaker 3: the household garden safe from its most common desecrators, namely

504
00:28:23,109 --> 00:28:28,750
Speaker 3: thieves and birds. So Green writes that to achieve this

505
00:28:28,810 --> 00:28:33,129
Speaker 3: protection from Priapus, the Roman farmer would put up a

506
00:28:33,170 --> 00:28:36,590
Speaker 3: wooden statue of the god in the garden, which had

507
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:41,210
Speaker 3: a double function in It both worked as a shrine

508
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:43,790
Speaker 3: to the God, so a kind of focal point for

509
00:28:43,830 --> 00:28:49,030
Speaker 3: worship of the God, and was physically functional as a scarecrow,

510
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:51,550
Speaker 3: or at least was said to be. And I think

511
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:53,770
Speaker 3: it's kind of fascinating to think about this. It's a

512
00:28:54,060 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: piece of religious technology. The statue of the God both

513
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 3: serves the religious purpose, it's representing the God to which

514
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,590
Speaker 3: you direct your prayers for protection of your crops. And also,

515
00:29:06,010 --> 00:29:08,930
Speaker 3: by its very presence, the statue of the god is

516
00:29:09,970 --> 00:29:14,230
Speaker 3: at least a little bit literally efficacious at doing what

517
00:29:14,270 --> 00:29:16,650
Speaker 3: you're praying to the god for help with, like it

518
00:29:16,810 --> 00:29:19,790
Speaker 3: is scaring the birds. And it gets me thinking about

519
00:29:19,830 --> 00:29:23,230
Speaker 3: whether there are other examples of this, like religious objects

520
00:29:23,370 --> 00:29:27,020
Speaker 3: that in a physical mundane sense also do the thing

521
00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 3: you're asking for the god's help with.

522
00:29:30,500 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, it basically gets

523
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: into this interesting scenario with an effigy. Like you can

524
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: raise an effigy with the pure intent of engaging in

525
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:44,350
Speaker 2: bird scare, but that image is going to work on

526
00:29:44,510 --> 00:29:46,690
Speaker 2: us as well, and it's going to open, it's going

527
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:50,950
Speaker 2: to engage with our own imagination and our certainly religious

528
00:29:51,010 --> 00:29:55,180
Speaker 2: and symbolic ideas. Like, you've You've committed an act here

529
00:29:55,380 --> 00:29:57,420
Speaker 2: that is going to resonate in the bird world and

530
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,219
Speaker 2: the human world. And then how do we end up,

531
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:00,820
Speaker 2: what do we end up doing with that?

532
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,980
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very good point. I almost feel like

533
00:30:03,020 --> 00:30:06,660
Speaker 3: we've gone backwards into this with scarecrows in more recent

534
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,900
Speaker 3: literature where, you know, the scarecrow stuffed with straw out

535
00:30:09,940 --> 00:30:13,650
Speaker 3: in the field, you know, to the 19th century farmer

536
00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:16,890
Speaker 3: is probably not supposed to be a religious object of

537
00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:19,510
Speaker 3: any kind. It's just functional, but it keeps kind of

538
00:30:19,610 --> 00:30:22,470
Speaker 3: getting magic attached to it in all of our storytelling,

539
00:30:22,510 --> 00:30:22,870
Speaker 3: doesn't it?

540
00:30:23,180 --> 00:30:27,130
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And just thinking about other decorations, thinking like

541
00:30:27,370 --> 00:30:31,130
Speaker 2: people just keep raising larger and larger skeletons in their

542
00:30:31,170 --> 00:30:36,090
Speaker 2: front yard, you know, for decorative purposes, for Halloween fun. But,

543
00:30:36,550 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: you know, at what point does it just become an

544
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:42,660
Speaker 2: idol of the god of death at some point? You know,

545
00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:45,460
Speaker 2: not again, not in an intentional overt way, but like

546
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,070
Speaker 2: in some like deeply resonating way concerning the way that

547
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:50,970
Speaker 2: we engage with imagery.

548
00:30:51,630 --> 00:30:56,620
Speaker 3: Totally. So in this passage from the book, Green quotes

549
00:30:56,820 --> 00:31:01,810
Speaker 3: some texts, quotes some Roman literature and liturgy, filling in

550
00:31:01,870 --> 00:31:06,030
Speaker 3: texture on how people thought about Priapus' role in the garden.

551
00:31:06,050 --> 00:31:10,610
Speaker 3: So one of these quotes is, To the fruit-laden gardens

552
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:14,460
Speaker 3: is given red Priapus as watch to scare the birds

553
00:31:14,580 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 3: with cruel billhook. Uh, and a note there, it describes

554
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 3: Priapus as red. What's going on with that? Uh, well,

555
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: I looked this up and it seems that statues of

556
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,770
Speaker 3: Priapus were often painted red. Uh, and the God was

557
00:31:27,790 --> 00:31:31,110
Speaker 3: sometimes given epithets like the red or the crimson one.

558
00:31:31,130 --> 00:31:34,090
Speaker 3: It seems to have something to do with themes of

559
00:31:34,470 --> 00:31:38,510
Speaker 3: ripe fruit, but also maybe like, uh, potency and virility

560
00:31:38,590 --> 00:31:39,510
Speaker 3: and engorgement.

561
00:31:39,530 --> 00:31:42,290
Speaker 2: Uh, engorge with blood. Okay. Yeah.

562
00:31:42,690 --> 00:31:45,330
Speaker 3: And then, uh, in fact, the, uh, the next quote

563
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:49,050
Speaker 3: in the book uses a similar epithet. It is, quote,

564
00:31:49,110 --> 00:31:52,950
Speaker 3: the crimson one who by his lewd image scares the

565
00:31:53,010 --> 00:31:56,590
Speaker 3: timid birds. So I really like that idea. It's like,

566
00:31:57,870 --> 00:32:01,210
Speaker 3: because he's a lewd, rude, crude dude that the birds

567
00:32:01,270 --> 00:32:01,930
Speaker 3: are scared.

568
00:32:02,370 --> 00:32:04,190
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. Sure.

569
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 3: Another one of these is Crimson Priapus, Glory and Guard

570
00:32:08,860 --> 00:32:13,780
Speaker 3: of Gardens. So to picture the standard Priapus scarecrow in

571
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,390
Speaker 3: a rustic Roman garden, I think you should imagine a

572
00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:22,050
Speaker 3: wooden statue of a man with a possibly huge erect

573
00:32:22,110 --> 00:32:26,010
Speaker 3: penis painted blood red all over and then holding a

574
00:32:26,150 --> 00:32:31,030
Speaker 3: curved blade like a sickle or a billhook, sometimes decked

575
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 3: in garlands of produce from the most recent successful harvest,

576
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,260
Speaker 3: but not necessarily always. Sounds kind of frightening and grotesque,

577
00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 3: but Green writes that, quote, Priapus with his fearsome crotch

578
00:32:43,460 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 3: was dearly beloved by many Roman families. And Green mentions

579
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,710
Speaker 3: the Priapia, which is a collection of these 80 anonymous

580
00:32:52,830 --> 00:32:56,290
Speaker 3: poems about this god from around the first century CE.

581
00:32:57,150 --> 00:33:02,210
Speaker 3: The Priapia describes this type of scarecrow as a protector

582
00:33:02,410 --> 00:33:06,390
Speaker 3: of the poor farmer. It seems kind of associated not

583
00:33:06,430 --> 00:33:10,030
Speaker 3: with rich farmers who own many, many lands and many fields,

584
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:13,830
Speaker 3: but with the poor subsistence farmer or the rustic farmer

585
00:33:13,890 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 3: out in the country. So a friend and protector of

586
00:33:17,820 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: the poor farmer and a threat to thieves who would

587
00:33:21,140 --> 00:33:25,940
Speaker 3: come and take away his livelihood and his home. And

588
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,140
Speaker 3: the passage also cites one of the satires of the

589
00:33:30,180 --> 00:33:34,390
Speaker 3: first century BCE Roman poet Horace, which is about a

590
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:39,180
Speaker 3: wooden priapus statue. And the satire reads in translation, of course,

591
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,620
Speaker 3: as follows, quote, Once I was a figwood stem, a

592
00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:47,220
Speaker 3: worthless log, when the carpenter, doubtful whether to make a

593
00:33:47,340 --> 00:33:50,290
Speaker 3: stool or a priapus, chose that I be a god.

594
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,370
Speaker 3: A god then I became. A god then I became

595
00:33:54,530 --> 00:33:58,650
Speaker 3: of thieves and birds, the special terror. For thieves, my

596
00:33:58,750 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 3: right hand keeps in check. And this red stake protruding

597
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,430
Speaker 3: from unsightly groin. While for the mischievous birds, a harundo

598
00:34:07,630 --> 00:34:10,690
Speaker 3: sat on my head, affrights them and keeps them from

599
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:14,009
Speaker 3: lighting in the new garden. So I had to look

600
00:34:14,090 --> 00:34:17,570
Speaker 3: up what this harundo was. What does that mean? In

601
00:34:17,610 --> 00:34:21,529
Speaker 3: the general sense, it seems it's a Latin term meaning shaft,

602
00:34:21,670 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 3: which can have multiple applications. Could be the shaft of

603
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:27,660
Speaker 3: an arrow or a fishing rod or like a reed.

604
00:34:28,219 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 3: In this context, though, Green explains that the harundo coming

605
00:34:31,980 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 3: off of Priapus' head is a limed reed. And I'm

606
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,259
Speaker 3: not positive what that means, but I think that means

607
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,580
Speaker 3: a reed coated in what was called bird lime at

608
00:34:42,620 --> 00:34:44,779
Speaker 3: the time. I think we've talked about this on the

609
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 3: show before. Bird lime was a kind of sticky, gluey

610
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,899
Speaker 3: substance that you might smear on tree limbs or other

611
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,739
Speaker 3: tools to intentionally trap small birds.

612
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:56,299
Speaker 2: So.

613
00:34:56,940 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 3: At least according to Horus, the Priapus scares away human

614
00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 3: thieves with its hooked blade and with the big erection,

615
00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:09,310
Speaker 3: and it scares away birds with a bird-trapping device, which

616
00:35:09,390 --> 00:35:13,250
Speaker 3: is also basically phallic in nature, attached to its head.

617
00:35:14,690 --> 00:35:18,370
Speaker 3: Green expresses doubts about whether the image of the Harundo

618
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:21,210
Speaker 3: was actually any more frightening to birds than just a

619
00:35:21,250 --> 00:35:25,710
Speaker 3: regular statue. Like, I guess that is worth wondering about, like,

620
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 3: Do the birds know what a limed reed is when

621
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 3: they see it? Is that especially scary to them?

622
00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Does it have dead birds affixed to it at

623
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,299
Speaker 2: this point? Because if that's the case, that might play

624
00:35:36,340 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: into some of what we were talking about already. But

625
00:35:39,219 --> 00:35:41,390
Speaker 2: if there are no dead birds attached to it, then, well,

626
00:35:42,190 --> 00:35:45,330
Speaker 2: it comes down to how is the bird processing this image?

627
00:35:45,739 --> 00:35:48,140
Speaker 3: That's a good point. If there are dead birds stuck

628
00:35:48,180 --> 00:35:49,779
Speaker 3: to it, that, I mean, that doesn't come up in

629
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,460
Speaker 3: the source, but I wonder if that's just one of

630
00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: those unspoken things that was part of the reality and

631
00:35:54,380 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 3: doesn't get mentioned in our, in our literature.

632
00:35:56,420 --> 00:35:56,500
Speaker 1: Yeah.

633
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:57,860
Speaker 2: Open question.

634
00:35:58,420 --> 00:36:01,660
Speaker 3: Uh, but so, uh, anyway, this author green thinks that

635
00:36:01,739 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 3: the horrendous bird repelling properties might've been more magical or

636
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: symbolic than, than literally efficacious, but that would be an

637
00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:14,629
Speaker 3: interesting experiment to run. Like, I wonder if, Something like

638
00:36:14,670 --> 00:36:17,969
Speaker 3: that could actually have a repelling property, maybe in an

639
00:36:18,070 --> 00:36:20,930
Speaker 3: environment where there's a lot of trapping with bird lime

640
00:36:20,969 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 3: taking place.

641
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:27,259
Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah. Something like that that's, again, enforcing

642
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:29,500
Speaker 2: the image, right? Yeah.

643
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 3: But anyway, how effective were these scarecrows? You know, we

644
00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:36,060
Speaker 3: ask how effective are scarecrows in general? It depends on

645
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,110
Speaker 3: a lot of things. How effective did ancient people think

646
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 3: the Priapus scarecrow was to protect their gardens? Well, again,

647
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 3: Green quotes that poem series, the Priapia. This line reads, quote,

648
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,540
Speaker 3: And often by shouting have we driven away the old

649
00:36:52,660 --> 00:36:57,330
Speaker 3: raven and enthusiastic jackdaw who would with horny beak peck

650
00:36:57,390 --> 00:36:58,370
Speaker 3: your sacred head.

651
00:36:59,290 --> 00:37:00,009
Speaker 2: Well, there you go.

652
00:37:00,410 --> 00:37:02,810
Speaker 3: So we got to defend the Priapus from the birds

653
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:04,250
Speaker 3: that it's supposed to be keeping away.

654
00:37:04,650 --> 00:37:06,650
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that makes it sound like they're effective as

655
00:37:06,690 --> 00:37:08,350
Speaker 2: they've always been. Yes.

656
00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 3: So despite some fearsome elements, birds can become rather accustomed

657
00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 3: to the Priapus scarecrow, and they have to be driven

658
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,220
Speaker 3: away from the shrine by human intervention. The Roman poet

659
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,950
Speaker 3: Virgil advises farmers to use more active measures. Virgil says,

660
00:37:26,130 --> 00:37:29,170
Speaker 3: scare birds away with noise. And this can be screaming

661
00:37:29,250 --> 00:37:35,750
Speaker 3: at them, shouting, or using noise-making devices like rattles. Rich

662
00:37:35,890 --> 00:37:39,049
Speaker 3: Roman farmers could, of course, have people just work as

663
00:37:39,350 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 3: live bird skimmers in the fields. And this might mean

664
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 3: visual appearances or making noise, or it could even include

665
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,100
Speaker 3: active use of the sling in the fields. But on

666
00:37:50,180 --> 00:37:53,460
Speaker 3: poor family farms, if anybody was going to be keeping

667
00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:56,660
Speaker 3: birds out of the gardens, it would probably be children.

668
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,509
Speaker 3: Or you might just have to prey and depend on

669
00:37:59,570 --> 00:38:03,020
Speaker 3: prey apis and hope for the best. But for a

670
00:38:03,060 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 3: final bit of perspective, I thought this was pretty interesting.

671
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 3: Green is talking about, you know, Romans making these appeals

672
00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:14,950
Speaker 3: to the god Priapus to protect their gardens, to keep

673
00:38:14,989 --> 00:38:20,230
Speaker 3: their gardens safe from the birds. And then the author writes, quote,

674
00:38:20,890 --> 00:38:25,550
Speaker 3: There was a firm distinction drawn between delightful songbirds, welcome

675
00:38:25,610 --> 00:38:29,830
Speaker 3: in ornamental gardens, and pest birds, unwelcome in the fields

676
00:38:29,890 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 3: and gardens where families grew food. The act of appreciating

677
00:38:34,140 --> 00:38:37,550
Speaker 3: wild birds and taking pleasure from their appearance on one's

678
00:38:37,590 --> 00:38:41,450
Speaker 3: land was not something everyone could afford. Hence the elite

679
00:38:41,530 --> 00:38:45,450
Speaker 3: preoccupation with pleasure gardens. So I thought that was really

680
00:38:45,489 --> 00:38:47,850
Speaker 3: interesting as a principle that I think is still true

681
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:53,150
Speaker 3: in many ways today that like wealth can alter the

682
00:38:53,190 --> 00:38:55,750
Speaker 3: meaning of nature for you. And so like in this

683
00:38:55,810 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 3: ancient Roman context, Your level of wealth and your labor

684
00:39:00,460 --> 00:39:05,850
Speaker 3: relationship to agricultural production totally changes the meaning of birds

685
00:39:05,989 --> 00:39:06,489
Speaker 3: for you.

686
00:39:06,510 --> 00:39:11,890
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. And I guess for many

687
00:39:11,930 --> 00:39:15,820
Speaker 2: of us, we kind of end up, especially as hobbyist gardeners,

688
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,779
Speaker 2: we end up with kind of a foot in both worlds.

689
00:39:18,300 --> 00:39:20,620
Speaker 2: We don't depend on that garden in the backyard. We

690
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: don't want it eaten up by birds, so we do

691
00:39:22,180 --> 00:39:24,739
Speaker 2: things like buy a plastic owl plant. But at the

692
00:39:24,780 --> 00:39:26,630
Speaker 2: same time, on the other side of the yard, like

693
00:39:26,650 --> 00:39:29,260
Speaker 2: maybe in the front yard, we've got bird feeders up.

694
00:39:29,780 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: We've got hummingbird feeders up. And we're engaging in the

695
00:39:32,660 --> 00:39:35,540
Speaker 2: other end. We're having our own little pleasure garden. So

696
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,540
Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting how we end up being situated

697
00:39:37,580 --> 00:39:40,219
Speaker 2: between the two. Yeah.

698
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,420
Speaker 3: Trying to find a balance.

699
00:39:41,980 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Some birds welcome. Other birds, please don't. We're only

700
00:39:45,020 --> 00:39:50,629
Speaker 2: in the front yard, please. Do they obey? Um, my,

701
00:39:50,850 --> 00:39:54,589
Speaker 2: my birds. Yeah. Um, you know, I, I don't know.

702
00:39:55,020 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 2: We have such mixed use. I'm such an, such an

703
00:39:56,820 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 2: amateur when it comes to gardening. I really can't even

704
00:39:58,860 --> 00:40:01,900
Speaker 2: answer that. Something eats some, I think, I feel like our,

705
00:40:02,340 --> 00:40:06,739
Speaker 2: our own little backyard garden is, is more ravaged by, um, uh,

706
00:40:06,820 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 2: insects than anything though.

707
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

708
00:40:09,300 --> 00:40:10,830
Speaker 2: That's my, my understanding.

709
00:40:11,590 --> 00:40:12,950
Speaker 3: Scarecrows don't work on insects.

710
00:40:13,010 --> 00:40:14,810
Speaker 2: They don't, they don't. You gotta, well, they're too big.

711
00:40:14,830 --> 00:40:16,049
Speaker 2: You gotta make them real tiny. Right.

712
00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:19,980
Speaker 3: Um, Has anybody ever tried if you just throw a

713
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,700
Speaker 3: bunch of those little plastic spider rings all over your garden?

714
00:40:22,780 --> 00:40:24,259
Speaker 3: Does that keep insects away?

715
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: I don't know. I did not run across studies on

716
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,489
Speaker 2: this particular topic, but it's possible somebody's looked into it.

717
00:40:30,489 --> 00:40:32,890
Speaker 2: I guess it comes down to a question of what

718
00:40:32,989 --> 00:40:36,790
Speaker 2: senses are you engaging in? And mostly with scarecrows, we're

719
00:40:36,810 --> 00:40:39,569
Speaker 2: talking about engaging the visual system.

720
00:40:39,610 --> 00:40:42,810
Speaker 3: Of the birds. Which have long line of sight.

721
00:40:43,290 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: And then if we're engaging in these other things like noise,

722
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,450
Speaker 2: we're engaging in sound as well. But with insects, you know,

723
00:40:49,469 --> 00:40:52,310
Speaker 2: maybe it comes more down to other senses. Not sure.

724
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,180
Speaker 2: All right. We have one more scarecrow deity to discuss here.

725
00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: And in this, we're going to get into Japanese culture

726
00:41:10,580 --> 00:41:16,069
Speaker 2: a bit. So Japanese traditional agriculture made use of scarecrows

727
00:41:16,690 --> 00:41:20,790
Speaker 2: in the form of which are indeed much like the

728
00:41:20,830 --> 00:41:22,850
Speaker 2: Western notion of the scarecrow, or at least they come

729
00:41:22,890 --> 00:41:26,549
Speaker 2: to be that, an anthropomorphic form to keep birds and

730
00:41:26,570 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 2: other beasts away from the crop, though with interesting connections

731
00:41:30,820 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: to odor-based techniques toward spirits away. And this remains at

732
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,420
Speaker 2: least part of the wordage anyway. And I do want

733
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,260
Speaker 2: to note here, this is again an area where we see,

734
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,460
Speaker 2: you can imagine the scarecrow is a, An effigy with

735
00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:52,110
Speaker 2: a foot in both worlds, in the world of human agriculture,

736
00:41:52,430 --> 00:41:56,370
Speaker 2: but also in the world of human mysticism and religion

737
00:41:56,710 --> 00:42:03,090
Speaker 2: and supernatural concepts. Because you have other traditions, I was

738
00:42:03,110 --> 00:42:05,209
Speaker 2: running across some others as well, where you have something

739
00:42:05,250 --> 00:42:08,910
Speaker 2: like a scarecrow that has purely supernatural purpose. It's used

740
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:12,489
Speaker 2: to keep spirits away. And so it's something to keep

741
00:42:12,530 --> 00:42:13,930
Speaker 2: in mind in all of this as well.

742
00:42:14,340 --> 00:42:14,450
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

743
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: So apparently kakashi is thought to be derived from the

744
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:23,089
Speaker 2: word kagashi. Kagashi means sniffing. This according to a 2025

745
00:42:23,090 --> 00:42:27,510
Speaker 2: paper by Meiko Shogatsudani. I had to run this title

746
00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:30,370
Speaker 2: through Google Translate, but I believe the title is The

747
00:42:30,450 --> 00:42:34,230
Speaker 2: Scent of Warding Off Misfortune and Inviting Good Fortune, a

748
00:42:34,270 --> 00:42:38,370
Speaker 2: Case Study of the Custom of Making Someone Smell. I

749
00:42:38,410 --> 00:42:41,089
Speaker 2: did not attempt to run the full paper through translation

750
00:42:41,150 --> 00:42:44,339
Speaker 2: because I I figured it would end up getting some

751
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,140
Speaker 2: things vitally wrong. But it does include an English language abstract,

752
00:42:48,180 --> 00:42:49,779
Speaker 2: and that's mainly what I was working off up here

753
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,529
Speaker 2: with this one paper. The author mentions that the exact

754
00:42:54,660 --> 00:42:58,629
Speaker 2: sniffing-related practice is often lost in these things. It seems

755
00:42:58,650 --> 00:43:01,310
Speaker 2: that the older use of Kakashi was more based on

756
00:43:01,390 --> 00:43:06,270
Speaker 2: posting foul-smelling substances like rotting fish to ward off pests,

757
00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: and that the practice remained when the switch to more

758
00:43:10,739 --> 00:43:14,340
Speaker 2: anthropomorphic scarecrows became more common. And this would have occurred,

759
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,899
Speaker 2: to be clear, long before contact with Europeans or anything

760
00:43:16,940 --> 00:43:19,779
Speaker 2: like that. But then the smell aspect of the thing

761
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: eventually vanishes from usage as well. Interesting.

762
00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 3: So you say it begins probably with repellent odors and

763
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 3: then over time shifts to being visual, like anthropomorphic repellent.

764
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my understanding. Or perhaps it's something along the

765
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:37,780
Speaker 2: lines of like the word is associated with the odor-based repellents.

766
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: And you have visual-based repellents going on as well, but

767
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,259
Speaker 2: then everything ends up being referred to by the same term,

768
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,330
Speaker 2: and then the smell aspect of the thing kind of

769
00:43:45,350 --> 00:43:45,910
Speaker 2: goes away.

770
00:43:45,930 --> 00:43:47,250
Speaker 3: Okay.

771
00:43:47,650 --> 00:43:51,150
Speaker 2: Yeah. In the modern usage, it can be rather distant

772
00:43:51,210 --> 00:43:56,489
Speaker 2: from agricultural usage altogether. One famous example of this, and

773
00:43:56,650 --> 00:43:59,150
Speaker 2: listeners and viewers, you may have seen this on travel shows,

774
00:43:59,210 --> 00:44:02,469
Speaker 2: such as James May's Our Man in Japan, which I

775
00:44:02,510 --> 00:44:06,060
Speaker 2: watched several years ago and really enjoyed, in that he

776
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 2: visits this particular town. remote town of Nagoro in Shikoku.

777
00:44:11,940 --> 00:44:16,770
Speaker 2: And this is a rural community that has been greatly

778
00:44:16,810 --> 00:44:20,250
Speaker 2: depopulated in modern times. People, you know, certainly people, older

779
00:44:20,290 --> 00:44:23,350
Speaker 2: people dying, but then younger people moving off, often to

780
00:44:24,390 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 2: large urban areas. And the locals have taken to replacing

781
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,020
Speaker 2: locals who have left or died with Kakashi dolls, making

782
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 2: it the Scarecrow Village or Kakashi no Sato. So more than,

783
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,100
Speaker 2: and the paper, the articles I was reading about this

784
00:44:41,180 --> 00:44:43,819
Speaker 2: are at this point, I think several years old, but

785
00:44:43,860 --> 00:44:47,700
Speaker 2: like by 2020 standards, a lot of these were saying

786
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 2: there were like 300 of these to be found in

787
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: the town. And they appear, they're situated in little tableaus,

788
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,859
Speaker 2: like they're doing farm work or local chores or having

789
00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:02,730
Speaker 2: a community meeting, that sort of thing. And the understanding too,

790
00:45:02,770 --> 00:45:05,330
Speaker 2: is that there are more scarecrows than humans in this

791
00:45:05,370 --> 00:45:08,660
Speaker 2: town at this point. Yeah, so the village has received

792
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: a lot of attention as like a commentary on the

793
00:45:11,260 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 2: trend of depopulation of remote villages for larger cities in Japan,

794
00:45:15,420 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: as well as kind of a way to illustrate and

795
00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:23,310
Speaker 2: maybe even a form of protest, but certainly to illustrate

796
00:45:23,330 --> 00:45:26,710
Speaker 2: this tension, this sense of loss felt regarding rural and

797
00:45:26,770 --> 00:45:29,790
Speaker 2: urban spaces, certainly in the Japanese mindset.

798
00:45:30,530 --> 00:45:33,109
Speaker 3: That's really interesting. Do you ever read on whether these

799
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 3: effigies are primarily like aimed at the people who made them?

800
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,180
Speaker 3: Did they make them for themselves? Like, was it an

801
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,430
Speaker 3: act of comfort or something like that? Or more as

802
00:45:43,989 --> 00:45:46,310
Speaker 3: like an outward facing kind of work of art? Or

803
00:45:46,330 --> 00:45:48,650
Speaker 3: like you said, like maybe a protest, like a form

804
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:49,850
Speaker 3: of statement?

805
00:45:49,890 --> 00:45:52,370
Speaker 2: Well, I kind of get the impression that it ends

806
00:45:52,450 --> 00:45:55,189
Speaker 2: up serving both of these functions to some degree, but

807
00:45:55,210 --> 00:45:57,509
Speaker 2: I think is maybe more inward based at first. And then,

808
00:45:57,530 --> 00:46:00,330
Speaker 2: you know, then people from beyond the town began to

809
00:46:00,370 --> 00:46:04,610
Speaker 2: take notice and, you know, media visits and, you And

810
00:46:04,630 --> 00:46:06,549
Speaker 2: they're very inviting. I think when James May visited, they

811
00:46:06,570 --> 00:46:10,129
Speaker 2: ended up making a cacacea of him as well. So

812
00:46:10,150 --> 00:46:11,910
Speaker 2: he was added to the mix. So, you know, there's

813
00:46:11,930 --> 00:46:14,590
Speaker 2: a certain amount of, there's a seriousness to it, but

814
00:46:14,610 --> 00:46:16,340
Speaker 2: there also seems to be a certain amount of fun

815
00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 2: to it and a certain amount of whimsy. But I

816
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: think ultimately it's illustrating a rather complex scenario that does

817
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: have its, you know, a sense of sadness to it

818
00:46:26,820 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: as well. And then coming to the idea of a god,

819
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 2: there is a Shinto deity in the mix in the

820
00:46:34,460 --> 00:46:40,180
Speaker 2: form of Kubiko. So one mention of this figure I

821
00:46:40,219 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 2: found in, I believe this is a 1926 work, A

822
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,010
Speaker 2: Study of Shinto, the Religion of the Japanese Nation by

823
00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:49,890
Speaker 2: Genshi Keito. And the author writes of this and says,

824
00:46:50,130 --> 00:46:54,009
Speaker 2: and this is in translation, of course, Yamada no Sohato,

825
00:46:54,170 --> 00:46:58,710
Speaker 2: otherwise called Kubiko or the Crumbling Prince. which is nothing

826
00:46:58,750 --> 00:47:00,950
Speaker 2: but a scarecrow set up in rice fields to ward

827
00:47:00,969 --> 00:47:04,129
Speaker 2: off predatory birds, is a great fetish god who, quote,

828
00:47:04,210 --> 00:47:07,150
Speaker 2: knows anything and everything under the sun, even though it

829
00:47:07,210 --> 00:47:09,090
Speaker 2: is always kept standing still.

830
00:47:10,190 --> 00:47:12,830
Speaker 3: Oh, that's an interesting duality. So if I read that right,

831
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:15,250
Speaker 3: there's a kind of irony in this god in that

832
00:47:15,450 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 3: it is presented as maybe omniscient, but not especially potent

833
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,020
Speaker 3: or completely impotent?

834
00:47:21,780 --> 00:47:24,580
Speaker 2: I think that might be the case, but I think

835
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 2: there's also a sense of like, like studious dedication to

836
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,300
Speaker 2: one's study and the idea that it's like, you know,

837
00:47:33,420 --> 00:47:35,660
Speaker 2: all you're doing is studying. You're not interacting with the world.

838
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 2: And in the stillness, you're accumulating knowledge and maybe becoming

839
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: more in line with divine knowledge.

840
00:47:42,300 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 3: Okay, so maybe shouldn't be read as lack of ability

841
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,980
Speaker 3: to act in the world, but that the standing still

842
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:49,820
Speaker 3: is like a way of learning, sort of?

843
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,819
Speaker 2: I think so. But my first impression was very much

844
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,590
Speaker 2: the same, thinking of like, oh, the scarecrow's just setting

845
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,150
Speaker 2: up there It's not doing anything to actively ward off birds,

846
00:47:58,250 --> 00:48:05,610
Speaker 2: but is constantly observing, constantly taking in information. So, yeah, ultimately,

847
00:48:06,150 --> 00:48:09,690
Speaker 2: it's like a god of wisdom and agriculture. And as

848
00:48:09,950 --> 00:48:13,650
Speaker 2: I understand, still revered at certain shrines. There'll be certain

849
00:48:13,810 --> 00:48:16,989
Speaker 2: Shinto shrines that you'll find in Japan that are dedicated

850
00:48:17,050 --> 00:48:21,220
Speaker 2: to this particular deity. And I read more about it,

851
00:48:21,270 --> 00:48:23,570
Speaker 2: like the really sort of the origin of this deity

852
00:48:23,690 --> 00:48:27,859
Speaker 2: and certainly the... the high point of its popularity in

853
00:48:28,060 --> 00:48:33,450
Speaker 2: Denizens of the Unseen World, Gods, Spirits, Immortals by Anne Lothal.

854
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,340
Speaker 2: This was, um, published in 2025, uh, as a chapter

855
00:48:37,410 --> 00:48:40,050
Speaker 2: in the book, In the Presence of Gods and Spirits,

856
00:48:40,489 --> 00:48:44,489
Speaker 2: Hirata Atsutani and His Collaborators. Uh, this refers to the

857
00:48:44,570 --> 00:48:49,509
Speaker 2: scholar and an important 19th century Shinto theologian, Hirata Atsutani,

858
00:48:49,550 --> 00:48:56,130
Speaker 2: who lived 1776 through 1843. And, um, So the author here,

859
00:48:57,010 --> 00:49:02,700
Speaker 2: she describes this entity, again, coming back to the god Kubiko,

860
00:49:03,420 --> 00:49:07,259
Speaker 2: as a minor 19th century god who then rises to

861
00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:13,509
Speaker 2: prominence specifically in 1869 when he's invoked, basically sort of

862
00:49:13,530 --> 00:49:17,930
Speaker 2: the mascot, if you will, in a more deeply set

863
00:49:17,969 --> 00:49:21,339
Speaker 2: religious manner, at the opening of a new national university.

864
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 2: And in Japan, this is a consolidation of historic Edo

865
00:49:26,219 --> 00:49:32,049
Speaker 2: period shogunal schools under the newly restored imperial rule. But

866
00:49:32,110 --> 00:49:36,490
Speaker 2: then his veneration quickly falls away again into relative obscurity,

867
00:49:36,530 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 2: just like a year later, because that school ends up

868
00:49:39,180 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 2: closing due to just chaotic infighting. They tried to take

869
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,190
Speaker 2: these three centers of learning, cobble them into one, and

870
00:49:45,210 --> 00:49:49,210
Speaker 2: make them confirm to some different ideas about the nature

871
00:49:49,570 --> 00:49:53,589
Speaker 2: of education and scholarly pursuit. And I think the key here,

872
00:49:53,630 --> 00:49:55,870
Speaker 2: if I'm understanding correctly, and this is not an area

873
00:49:56,410 --> 00:49:58,110
Speaker 2: that I've done a lot of reading about, but I

874
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,820
Speaker 2: think the idea is that this effort was also charged

875
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 2: with a sense of let's remove foreign ideas from education.

876
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,620
Speaker 2: We don't want Confucius to be a part of this

877
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: because he is not purely Japanese. He's of Chinese origin.

878
00:50:12,930 --> 00:50:14,630
Speaker 2: We don't want the Buddha to be a part of this.

879
00:50:14,670 --> 00:50:17,090
Speaker 2: We want it to be more based in Shinto and

880
00:50:17,110 --> 00:50:21,690
Speaker 2: things off Japan. So she describes that the idea of

881
00:50:21,770 --> 00:50:25,930
Speaker 2: Kobiko is apparently based in part on much older rural

882
00:50:25,989 --> 00:50:32,350
Speaker 2: Japanese practices involving very agricultural scarecrows dressed as gods of

883
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:36,500
Speaker 2: the rice paddy. combined with this idea of a medium

884
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 2: that could be imbued with divine knowledge. It would kind

885
00:50:39,860 --> 00:50:44,940
Speaker 2: of absorb and become a center of knowledge, divine knowledge.

886
00:50:45,980 --> 00:50:49,380
Speaker 2: And again, this concept was, I think, largely developed and

887
00:50:49,420 --> 00:50:53,509
Speaker 2: pushed forward by Shinto theologian Hirata Atsutani, who took it

888
00:50:53,550 --> 00:50:58,730
Speaker 2: as one of his personal deities and taught its veneration

889
00:50:58,790 --> 00:51:01,380
Speaker 2: to his students and Again, in large part as a

890
00:51:01,540 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 2: sort of a nationalist alternative to the veneration of foreign

891
00:51:04,660 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 2: Confucius or even Buddhist figures to align with the priorities

892
00:51:09,020 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 2: of the emperor after the Meiji Restoration. And this is

893
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:18,050
Speaker 2: why it was chosen to represent learning at this school.

894
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:21,010
Speaker 2: And then that's also why it ends up falling away.

895
00:51:21,070 --> 00:51:24,390
Speaker 2: So the closing of the Deities Associated School in 1870

896
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 2: takes away its base of veneration. But Atsutani apparently held

897
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 2: on to the concept and saw it as an ideal

898
00:51:30,910 --> 00:51:34,870
Speaker 2: one could sort of merge with personally. And again, the

899
00:51:34,930 --> 00:51:37,190
Speaker 2: entity does seem to live on as one of the

900
00:51:37,230 --> 00:51:38,650
Speaker 2: more obscure Shinto deities.

901
00:51:39,230 --> 00:51:41,730
Speaker 3: And does the god still have these associations of like

902
00:51:41,850 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 3: wisdom or great sort of observation and learning about the world?

903
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,580
Speaker 2: I think so. I was looking at some images of

904
00:51:48,620 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 2: the shrines. And the shrines, I think to someone who

905
00:51:52,260 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 2: didn't know what they were looking at, you wouldn't think

906
00:51:53,540 --> 00:51:56,220
Speaker 2: it had anything to do with scarecrows. So I don't

907
00:51:56,260 --> 00:52:00,609
Speaker 2: know if the deity rather ends up kind of like

908
00:52:00,710 --> 00:52:06,450
Speaker 2: losing its scarecrow qualities as well in its, again, kind

909
00:52:06,489 --> 00:52:10,870
Speaker 2: of obscure form today. But it certainly was associated with

910
00:52:10,910 --> 00:52:13,830
Speaker 2: the scarecrow in its original conception.

911
00:52:14,330 --> 00:52:14,790
Speaker 3: Interesting.

912
00:52:15,250 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's a lot more to it than I thought.

913
00:52:17,930 --> 00:52:19,340
Speaker 2: I thought it was going to be more versed in

914
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: like full-fledged folk tradition. And it does have roots there,

915
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,870
Speaker 2: but it also seems to be a product of You know,

916
00:52:26,910 --> 00:52:31,690
Speaker 2: more like sort of deeper Shinto theology and then also

917
00:52:32,430 --> 00:52:36,370
Speaker 2: essentially like political reorganization that was going on at the time.

918
00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 3: Do you know anything about the connotations of this other

919
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,620
Speaker 3: name Kubiko has that the crumbling prince? It makes me

920
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,100
Speaker 3: think of the Nathaniel Hawthorne story we read in part

921
00:52:48,300 --> 00:52:51,700
Speaker 3: one where the scarecrow is repeatedly described in terms of

922
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,609
Speaker 3: like the old and tattered quality of the things that

923
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 3: make it up.

924
00:52:55,460 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is the case. I think it

925
00:52:57,700 --> 00:53:00,910
Speaker 2: does have to do with what a scarecrow looks like.

926
00:53:01,300 --> 00:53:04,250
Speaker 2: You know, that you can dress one up to look like,

927
00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:07,370
Speaker 2: you know, a god of the rice paddy or some

928
00:53:07,390 --> 00:53:10,029
Speaker 2: sort of a prince or something. But at the end

929
00:53:10,050 --> 00:53:11,430
Speaker 2: of the day, it's a scarecrow. It's going to be

930
00:53:11,450 --> 00:53:13,470
Speaker 2: out in the sun in the elements. Birds are going

931
00:53:13,489 --> 00:53:15,259
Speaker 2: to mess with it. It's going to get rained on

932
00:53:15,300 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 2: and so forth. The wind's going to blow on it

933
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:18,660
Speaker 2: and it's going to degrade somewhat.

934
00:53:19,380 --> 00:53:21,180
Speaker 3: And it's probably made out of stuff you were trying

935
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:22,100
Speaker 3: to get rid of anyway.

936
00:53:22,260 --> 00:53:23,419
Speaker 2: Old trash. Yeah.

937
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

938
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,670
Speaker 3: Also ironic in a way that you could have the

939
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:29,890
Speaker 3: scarecrow as this image of wisdom and learning in this

940
00:53:30,010 --> 00:53:35,770
Speaker 3: one cultural context. Because he, in so many other stories

941
00:53:35,810 --> 00:53:39,250
Speaker 3: like these, you know, American or European stories we've been

942
00:53:39,290 --> 00:53:43,210
Speaker 3: talking about, the scarecrow is often the image of emptiness.

943
00:53:43,270 --> 00:53:46,060
Speaker 3: I think about, you know, the scarecrow in The Wizard

944
00:53:46,100 --> 00:53:48,900
Speaker 3: of Oz who lacks a brain, the scarecrow in the

945
00:53:48,940 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 3: Hawthorne story, which is totally symbolic of emptiness and insubstantiality.

946
00:53:54,780 --> 00:53:58,420
Speaker 2: Well, maybe there's a sense of humility to it. I'm

947
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 2: a humble scholar. I'm like the scarecrow. I'm out here

948
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 2: exposed to the elements. I may not be chasing down birds,

949
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: but I'm actively absorbing information and becoming more in line with, again,

950
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:10,510
Speaker 2: divine knowledge.

951
00:54:11,030 --> 00:54:14,090
Speaker 3: There's almost a sense of mischief in that, in that

952
00:54:14,250 --> 00:54:17,390
Speaker 3: the scarecrow is a thing that is manufactured by the

953
00:54:17,450 --> 00:54:19,989
Speaker 3: farmer in order to be seen and not to see.

954
00:54:20,650 --> 00:54:22,989
Speaker 3: But then if you think about it from the scarecrow's perspective,

955
00:54:23,070 --> 00:54:25,530
Speaker 3: what has it to do but see, but to observe?

956
00:54:25,930 --> 00:54:26,109
Speaker 1: Yeah.

957
00:54:26,210 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 2: And then, as we've been saying, the scarecrow is swiftly

958
00:54:28,940 --> 00:54:32,940
Speaker 2: not seen anymore. Yeah. By birds, certainly, but also by people.

959
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 2: It just becomes a part of the landscape. Yeah. Okay.

960
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:37,700
Speaker 3: Does that do it for part two?

961
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,140
Speaker 2: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. We touched on a number

962
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 2: of ideas I think we'll come back to in subsequent episodes.

963
00:54:43,940 --> 00:54:47,310
Speaker 2: So stick with us on that. But if you have

964
00:54:47,610 --> 00:54:50,339
Speaker 2: questions that roll in in the meantime, go ahead and

965
00:54:50,420 --> 00:54:53,859
Speaker 2: launch them our way. If you have field reports, like

966
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 2: sometimes literal field reports because we're talking about scarecrows, do

967
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:58,989
Speaker 2: send those in because we would love to hear from you.

968
00:54:59,290 --> 00:55:01,850
Speaker 3: Yeah, we will definitely be reading some scarecrow mail in

969
00:55:01,890 --> 00:55:05,430
Speaker 3: our first listener mail episode after October. So please send

970
00:55:05,469 --> 00:55:08,390
Speaker 3: it on in. Contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com.

971
00:55:09,060 --> 00:55:12,299
Speaker 2: All right. As always, we just remind you that Stuff

972
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,140
Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture

973
00:55:14,180 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 2: podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short-form episodes

974
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 2: on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, we set aside most serious

975
00:55:20,410 --> 00:55:22,790
Speaker 2: concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird

976
00:55:22,830 --> 00:55:25,750
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977
00:55:25,770 --> 00:55:28,170
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978
00:55:28,190 --> 00:55:30,149
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979
00:55:30,170 --> 00:55:32,820
Speaker 2: of thumbs up and ask to be reminded about new episodes.

980
00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 3: Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, J.J.

981
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:36,820
Speaker 2: Posway.

982
00:55:37,370 --> 00:55:38,710
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

983
00:55:38,750 --> 00:55:41,150
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

984
00:55:41,230 --> 00:55:43,190
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

985
00:55:43,230 --> 00:55:46,110
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com.

986
00:55:55,430 --> 00:55:57,899
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987
00:55:58,260 --> 00:56:01,580
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988
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,940
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989
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:12,450
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