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Speaker 1: Because four hours. Simply enough. This is Armstrong and Getty

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Speaker 1: extra large. Here we are again the committee of learned

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Speaker 1: sages so much better than, as suppose the ignorant age.

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Speaker 1: It's it's another one of our book review podcasts, book

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Speaker 1: discussion podcasts. Uh, the Armstrong and Getty and Friends book

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Speaker 1: Club um with the two of us and Craig got

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Speaker 1: Wall's attorney at law and and thinker and benefits expert

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Speaker 1: and Tim Sandifer from the Goldwater Foundation. I don't have

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Speaker 1: your title in front of me, Tim, I apologize, Vice

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Speaker 1: president for Litigation Boy. Before we get to today's book,

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Speaker 1: I want to mention at the beginning of this, if

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Speaker 1: you've not heard our podcast on socialism on the book

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Speaker 1: Heaven on Earth, never been a better time with the

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Speaker 1: topic of socialism in the news every day and probably

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Speaker 1: up to the presidential election, of what it is and

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Speaker 1: what it isn't. So if you're scrolling back in your

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Speaker 1: podcast feed, it was late late August and Jack entitled

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Speaker 1: at Lenin is a piece of shit? There you go,

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Speaker 1: because he was, Yeah, not safe for work unless you

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Speaker 1: know there's a lot of ship at your work. So

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Speaker 1: here we go. This I Joe Getty chose the book

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Speaker 1: Tribe by Sebastian Younger. The subtitle is on Homecoming and

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Speaker 1: Belonging Um it is. It is not a big, thick,

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Speaker 1: scholarly book. It is somewhat scholarly. Sebastian Cabin was really wow.

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Speaker 1: Now there's wow. If you're under fifty, google it. And

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Speaker 1: I listened to music from Sebastian Box. So I I

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Speaker 1: just watched a Little Mermaid. Well, I I happened to

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Speaker 1: be a guy who thinks a lot about the dislocation

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Speaker 1: uh and and the disconnection of modern society, and it

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Speaker 1: it bothers me, and it troubles me, and I worry

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Speaker 1: about my kids and that sort of thing. And I've

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Speaker 1: been thinking about that for a long time, and it

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Speaker 1: came across this book by a guy already liked and admired.

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Speaker 1: If you don't know Sebastian Younger, he wrote to the

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Speaker 1: Perfect Storm, right, which inflicted that that cliche on the

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Speaker 1: English language, and a great book about the Boston Strangler

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Speaker 1: too right. He also, with Tim Heatherington, produced the documentary

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Speaker 1: Rostreppo about marines in um the Corongal Valley in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: And I would say similar to the Perfect Storm in

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Speaker 1: that that book, and then movie made that that a

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Speaker 1: phrase or words that people use over all the time.

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Speaker 1: So is this tribe book. There's been so much discussion

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Speaker 1: of us being tribal in our politics and everything since

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Speaker 1: this book came out. It really had an effect, right,

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Speaker 1: And it it really had an effect on me too,

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Speaker 1: in a really fundamental way because and it's a couple

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Speaker 1: of books at once. His inspiration was he spent a

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Speaker 1: hell of a lot of time with fighting men and

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Speaker 1: women in the United States Armed Force. He was embedded

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan effect exactly, and um, and he maintained relationships

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Speaker 1: with them as they came back home and either adjusted

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Speaker 1: or failed to adjust. And it was his his personal

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Speaker 1: pain and grief at witnessing some of the difficulties of

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Speaker 1: this that motivated him to look into the question of

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Speaker 1: belonging and and how societies embrace and don't embrace warriors,

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Speaker 1: but just how societies don't, how societies embraced individuals as well,

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Speaker 1: just humans, how humans relate to each other, which is

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Speaker 1: a hell of a topic, right right. So, and I

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Speaker 1: don't want to dominate it because the discussion because I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of passionate about this book. Um, But maybe The

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Speaker 1: best place to start is where he starts talking about

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Speaker 1: how in the colonial and the pre we were a

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Speaker 1: country time and actually in the early U s history

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Speaker 1: there would be there were thousands and thousands of english

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Speaker 1: people who defected to the Indian tribe. This is fascinating,

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Speaker 1: right They maybe they were captured and elected to stay,

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Speaker 1: or maybe they just wandered into the woods and tried it.

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Speaker 1: Thousands and thousands men, women and children, and virtually zero

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Speaker 1: natives willingly did the same thing. So you're being settlers

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Speaker 1: would end up joining the tribes and not leave, not

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Speaker 1: want to leave. Sometimes if there was a trade made,

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Speaker 1: they would sneak away from Boston and go back to

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Speaker 1: the Indian tribe. Right, And Ben Franklin was fascinated by

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Speaker 1: this in particular, And what was it about the life

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Speaker 1: living with the tribes that they found better, more meaningful? Whatever? Tim,

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Speaker 1: what do you think of that? Well, I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of how to approach this discussion

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Speaker 1: because I dislike this book so intensely that I have

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Speaker 1: tried to that they do. And I've tried to come

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Speaker 1: at this with what can I get out of this book?

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Speaker 1: Putting aside for a moment my disagreements, but the number

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Speaker 1: of the very first disagreement I ran into was just

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Speaker 1: this issue. Because Younger is trying to argue that the

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Speaker 1: reason why settlers preferred to live with the Indians and

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Speaker 1: vice versa is because they had the Indian culture at

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Speaker 1: the time had this sense of communitarianism. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is a book. This book is an advocacy of communitarianism.

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Speaker 1: And just where I'm coming from, I am a very

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Speaker 1: intense individualist. My number one political value is individualism. And

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Speaker 1: whenever people talk about community and belonging and stuff, I

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Speaker 1: always get a little nervous because although there is validity

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Speaker 1: to that, it always worries me that they're going to

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Speaker 1: smuggle in some anti individualist concept. So here you're talking

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Speaker 1: why settlers prefer to live with the tribes is because

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Speaker 1: they were more communitarian and they had this sense of belonging,

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Speaker 1: and people really like that. I think it was exactly

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Speaker 1: the reverse of that. I think the reason why people

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Speaker 1: who came over from Europe found themselves happier living with

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Speaker 1: Indians was because they were getting away from the more communitarian,

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Speaker 1: oppressive society of Puritanism and colonial America, where everybody was

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Speaker 1: constantly up in each other's business, and here they find

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Speaker 1: tribes where they're free to do their their own thing

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Speaker 1: and not have to wear corsets all the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: it seems to me that that younger takes this this

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Speaker 1: data as proof of his thesis, and in fact it

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Speaker 1: dis proves his thesis. And I really was bothered by

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Speaker 1: that right away. Well, and you know that that was

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Speaker 1: and that's part of the reason I asked. This is

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Speaker 1: the part of the book that I had the most

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Speaker 1: trouble with because he romanticizes does the the the the

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Speaker 1: Indian existence, even though every time he catches himself romanticizing it,

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Speaker 1: he brings up horrific torture and disease and starvation and

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Speaker 1: near constant warfare. And the one thing I kept thinking was, well,

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Speaker 1: these people really didn't get a chance to sample that

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Speaker 1: lifestyle and make an intelligent choice. Um, And so it's

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Speaker 1: difficult to understand what may have motivated And maybe it

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Speaker 1: was just the food. Maybe the food is just that

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Speaker 1: much better. Well, I suspect there was some truth to that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you look at the medical practices or

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Speaker 1: the habits of bathing among Europeans of that time. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure that you know. The story goes that when Captain

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Speaker 1: Cook's men arrived in the Hawaiian Islands, the Hawaiians were

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Speaker 1: astonished by how badly the ship's stink they could smell

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Speaker 1: them out at see because the Europeans didn't base. So

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there was some degree to which the Indian

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Speaker 1: culture was healthier. But there it's absolutely true. It's absolutely

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Speaker 1: true that he romanticizes them and and romanticizes them repeatedly

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Speaker 1: throughout the book. Now, romanticizing Indians is a is a

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Speaker 1: longstanding American tradition. It's one of our cultures deepest traditions.

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Speaker 1: But it needs to be called on, and he does

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Speaker 1: it throughout one of the Towards the end of the book,

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Speaker 1: he's he goes back to this issue and he's talking

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Speaker 1: about an Apache tribal member that he knew who had

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Speaker 1: volunteered for the Vietnam War and stuff, and he talks

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Speaker 1: about how this fellow it was so into his culture

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Speaker 1: that he practiced the sun dance. Well, the sun dance

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Speaker 1: is not an Apache tribal custom, that's the Lakota tribal custom.

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Speaker 1: And and the reason why it was adopted in the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century by members of other tribes, was in part

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Speaker 1: as a function of American romanticism about what life was

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Speaker 1: like among the Indians. So now this book is not

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Speaker 1: a pistology in New Hampshire. Yeah, this book is not

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Speaker 1: an anthropology book. But it is still I think a

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Speaker 1: telling weakness of the book the way he romanticizes and

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Speaker 1: ignores the realities of American Indian tribal culture. On the

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Speaker 1: other hand, and gosh, I'm torn between offering what I

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Speaker 1: hope to be an intelligent response or just going after

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Speaker 1: your motives and trying to portray as a bad person.

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Speaker 1: He get Bernie on the mind and the problem the day.

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Speaker 1: But the one part I found powerful about that, because

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Speaker 1: the book again was primarily motivated by the idea of

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Speaker 1: of of warriors reintegrating into peaceful civilian society, was that

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Speaker 1: I think the Indian tribes and the Israelis and and

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Speaker 1: other people do a hell of a lot better job

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Speaker 1: of it than we do um in the US. But

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Speaker 1: why Younger. I think what Younger ultimately concludes is that

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Speaker 1: the reason why is because those societies are constantly at war,

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Speaker 1: and therefore it's a good thing for our culture to

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Speaker 1: be constantly on him war footing mentally, because that makes

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Speaker 1: it easier for soldiers to reintegrate them selves into society.

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Speaker 1: Now it's true. No, no, no, I disagree. No, it's

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Speaker 1: it's true that during World War One. He points out,

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Speaker 1: during World War One, a lot of soldiers were astonished

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Speaker 1: when they would come home and find that nobody seemed

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Speaker 1: to care that the war was going on. And that

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Speaker 1: seems to be the case today too, and that I

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Speaker 1: can absolutely see why they'd be alienating. But when he's

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Speaker 1: arguing that, well, the reason why these other cultures do

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Speaker 1: it better is because the people are always constantly aware

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Speaker 1: that there's a war, and they always they feel themselves

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Speaker 1: part of the war and everything. It seems like he's saying,

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Speaker 1: as long as you perpetuate a crisis mentality among the people,

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Speaker 1: then those who are engaged firsthand in the crisis will

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Speaker 1: find it easier to reintegrate themselves into society. Well, maybe

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Speaker 1: that's true, but it should we live our lives in

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Speaker 1: a constant crisis mentality. Well, you're a paranoiac, and I

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Speaker 1: think you hate America. I slipped. No, I was just

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Speaker 1: gonna say, I think his point is that what can

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Speaker 1: we adopt, What can we learn from the methods the

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Speaker 1: interactions that they used to help warriors reintegrate into society

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Speaker 1: without being on a constant war fla He says aquired,

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Speaker 1: But he says here quote the battlefield was an extension

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Speaker 1: of society and vice versa end quote. He says that

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Speaker 1: that is the key to why these other societies do

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Speaker 1: it better than we do. Well. We don't want our

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Speaker 1: society to be an extension of the battlefield. That's a

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Speaker 1: horrible idea we and we don't want vice versa either.

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Speaker 1: We want to have a civilian society where people can

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Speaker 1: pursue happiness is what we want. Yeah, I think what's

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Speaker 1: going on here is is he's he's just picking sort

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Speaker 1: of one anecdote, not one anecdote. He's picking one example

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Speaker 1: of how people can feel more fulfilled and enriched. And

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Speaker 1: it's really it's really just one example of the global

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Speaker 1: principle we've talked about here on the show before, and

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Speaker 1: that's that, um, good times create soft people. Soft people

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Speaker 1: create bad times, and bad times create hard people strong people.

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Speaker 1: So when when you go off to war, you necessarily

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Speaker 1: create strong people, and you you thereby like Tim just

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Speaker 1: pointed out, are going to correct some of the the

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Speaker 1: ills that they might be feeling, and then when they

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Speaker 1: come back there, they're often coming back into a quote soft,

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Speaker 1: easy society, and they're gonna then feel the ills associated

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Speaker 1: with that, which I'm sure is I can only imagine.

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Speaker 1: I've never served in the military, I can only imagine

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Speaker 1: that must have been. It must be an extremely difficult

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Speaker 1: thing to face right now. I guess my objection to

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Speaker 1: your objection, your honor, is that, um, it's I almost

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Speaker 1: felt like you were arguing that I can learn nothing

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Speaker 1: about training from an Olympic athlete just because I'm a fat,

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Speaker 1: suburban slug. Um. To me, those societies that were forced

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Speaker 1: to get really good at helping people not go nuts,

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Speaker 1: um can teach us something. Yeah, And I think if

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Speaker 1: if that's how I try to approach the book also

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Speaker 1: is to say, well, let's put aside this question of

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Speaker 1: whether he's actually arguing in favor of a battlefield being

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Speaker 1: the extension of society and vice versa. And and is

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Speaker 1: he he talking about something that's that's a real problem,

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Speaker 1: I think absolutely, And does he make some value valuable

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Speaker 1: observations in that regard? Yes, one of them is. I

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Speaker 1: really enjoyed his talking about evolutionary psychology when he talks

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Speaker 1: about the different tendencies and towards violence between men and women,

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Speaker 1: and you know, he talks about the how men are

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Speaker 1: vastly more likely to come to the rescue of another

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Speaker 1: person than women are and genders of construct Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: And I was glad that he didn't fall for that nonsense.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was great. But and I agree with him,

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Speaker 1: of course. He says that that one of the big

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Speaker 1: problems in our society is that we predicate our identity

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Speaker 1: on exclusion or inclusion in groups. Absolutely, that's a problem,

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Speaker 1: but his it seems to me that his solution is

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Speaker 1: more belonging. And I I'm not persuaded that I think that.

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Speaker 1: I think what we really need is a stronger buttressing

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Speaker 1: for individual strength and valuing and celebrating people as individuals,

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Speaker 1: not the idea that we should subsume our individualism within

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Speaker 1: some larger group. Well. He also makes the uses the

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Speaker 1: statistics though, and I liked this because I come up

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Speaker 1: from rural, middle of nowhere part of the world. He

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Speaker 1: makes the point that people who live in a rural,

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Speaker 1: less populated areas have less You know, anxiety, mental illnesses

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Speaker 1: of a variety of kinds from people that live stacked

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Speaker 1: on top of each other in urban areas. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: a dead man has no anxieties either. Is it necessarily

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Speaker 1: a good thing? I mean, if a person lives in

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Speaker 1: some rural community where he has few anxieties, what what

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Speaker 1: conclusion do we draw from that? Maybe the reason he

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Speaker 1: has few anxieties is because he lives a much duller

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Speaker 1: less interesting life and he want not I will not

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Speaker 1: believe that for a second. Well, it certainly is true

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Speaker 1: of at least one person out there in the world

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Speaker 1: who lives in a boring community and wants to have

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Speaker 1: a more fuller life. So if we were to encounter

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Speaker 1: that one person to say, well, aren't you lucky that

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Speaker 1: you that you live in in some obscure town and

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Speaker 1: you don't have any chance of realizing your dreams, but

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Speaker 1: at least you don't have any anxieties. What a cruel

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Speaker 1: thing that would be To say? Right, Yeah, I just

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Speaker 1: don't think that exists. Really, I mean, maybe one person,

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Speaker 1: but that's not what life is like. I just I

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Speaker 1: want to say the first time I went through this

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Speaker 1: book was three years ago, and I really I really

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Speaker 1: kind of fell in love with it. And the second

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Speaker 1: time I went through this book, of course, was the

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Speaker 1: last couple of months, and I went through it with

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Speaker 1: a different ie. I went through it a little bit

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Speaker 1: more skeptically. And my takeaway is that he he he

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Speaker 1: came out he being younger, came out of Afghanistan, and

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Speaker 1: he basically wanted to scream this message, and that message

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Speaker 1: was Wow, um PTSD in the modern world are so bad.

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Speaker 1: But when you go and do something really really hard

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Speaker 1: with a group of loved ones, that overcomes all of

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Speaker 1: it and it almost like cures the modern world's ailments.

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Speaker 1: And then when you take that person and throw them

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Speaker 1: back into the modern world modern world, it's a gigantic

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Speaker 1: mess again. And I think so I think he kind

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Speaker 1: of he came out of that experience with just this

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Speaker 1: epiphany of like, our modern world is so screwed up

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Speaker 1: from what we are hereditary and historically should be, that

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Speaker 1: it's making us all sick and evil. And I think

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Speaker 1: when you take that broader look at it, I think

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Speaker 1: it's very true and accurate. And I just think he

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Speaker 1: tends to use war and tragedy, whether it be like

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Speaker 1: nine eleven or whatever, or like hurricanes. I think he

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Speaker 1: just uses those as examples without kind of reaching the

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Speaker 1: broader picture, and that's that that life is more about

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Speaker 1: meaning and hard work and and and doing something significant

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Speaker 1: than it is about suffering for example. Oh, I totally

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Speaker 1: agree with that. I think what what is true about

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Speaker 1: his message is that people need reason, purpose, and self

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Speaker 1: esteem in their lives, and they and different people find

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Speaker 1: those in different ways. He sees those in very dramatic

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Speaker 1: examples in cases like Bosnia or Kosovo, the examples he uses,

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Speaker 1: and one could very easily conclude that what he's arguing

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Speaker 1: is that we all ought to live in war torn

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Speaker 1: societies because then at least we'll have a feeling of

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Speaker 1: belonging and but our fellow human beings, which is crazy.

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Speaker 1: That's the problem with the book, Tim, But I think

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Speaker 1: it's almost like if the book were twice as long

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Speaker 1: and he took that he took the time to go

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Speaker 1: through and do these other examples of where you could

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Speaker 1: find meaning and enrichment and cutting out social media in

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Speaker 1: your life, you get to the same place. It's almost

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Speaker 1: like we're reading a summary of what his real argument is.

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Speaker 1: I've got to ask you, though, Tim, he he uses

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Speaker 1: the example of towns that were wiped out by tornadoes,

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Speaker 1: and everybody pulled together and looked out for each other,

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Speaker 1: and they got to know each other and it was

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Speaker 1: the favorite time of their lives. Do you think Younger

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Speaker 1: is advocating constant tornadoes? Well, if it seems, I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, it seemed to fit his thesis, he would

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Speaker 1: he seems to be arguing for this. It's steeped in

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Speaker 1: this nostalgia and this rose tinted glasses. Look at the

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Speaker 1: past and how civilization was because everybody got together and

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Speaker 1: see each other and cared. And I don't, first of

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Speaker 1: all buy any of that to begin with. And secondly,

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Speaker 1: the conclusion when draws from that is that if belonging

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Speaker 1: in a sense of community is a good thing, then

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Speaker 1: we ought to live in disaster all the time, because

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Speaker 1: then we'd all feel better and more belonging. That's crazy, No,

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Speaker 1: And I just think that's the problem. I think the

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Speaker 1: problem is the only examples he uses are war and disaster.

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Speaker 1: It would be so much more well rounded if he

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Speaker 1: used raising a child with disabilities, or forming your own

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Speaker 1: group or club, or running your own company, running your

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Speaker 1: own company, employing people. If he used other examples of struggle,

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Speaker 1: face to face tribal living that just don't necessarily revolve

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Speaker 1: around war or does that? And then and then addressed

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Speaker 1: the self sufficient individual who is happy with his life,

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Speaker 1: not belonging to some group, but because he pursues his

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Speaker 1: own vision and makes something beautiful that he believes in,

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Speaker 1: possibly against the will of his entire tribe, because he

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Speaker 1: holds true to the truth that he believes in. I

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Speaker 1: think those are the real heroes in our society, and

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Speaker 1: they're the people who are left out in the cold

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Speaker 1: by an over focus on tribalism and belonging. In other words,

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Speaker 1: who is running, dear Galt, Yeah, well, seriously, there's there are.

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Speaker 1: This is the problem is, as I said at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: my my primary value is the individual, and I think

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Speaker 1: about the one person who gets left out and when

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Speaker 1: who has a vision of a better world that other

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Speaker 1: people ignore or deride. And then when he says, boy,

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Speaker 1: I feel lonesome, his the response he gets, as well,

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Speaker 1: you should you should belong to a tribe. No, you

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Speaker 1: should build a life that you believe in and stand

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Speaker 1: for what you leave in and if people agree with

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Speaker 1: you and value they'll come to you and you'll build

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Speaker 1: a community that you feel valued and I that's what

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Speaker 1: I think is the right answer, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: absolutely love this, uh this discussion and argument um. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, I'm gonna I kind of classed in

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Speaker 1: a loaner, Tim, and you make me look like the

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Speaker 1: prom que. That may be true, but you would you

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Speaker 1: would be as unhappy Joe as I am if we

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Speaker 1: were to take up group sleeping honestly, Honestly. Sebastian Younger

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Speaker 1: in this book argues in favor of groups sleeping that

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Speaker 1: the idea of kids sleeping in their own rooms and

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Speaker 1: then growing up and sleeping alone, that that's a bad

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Speaker 1: thing in our society, and that grown adults feel happier

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Speaker 1: when they sleep in groups, as they're forced to do.

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Speaker 1: On the anthropological that you know, we're we're just a

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Speaker 1: few generations from when we used to do that, and

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Speaker 1: we haven't adjusted. Well. I'm happy sleeping with either by

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Speaker 1: myself or with those I choose to sleep with, Thank

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Speaker 1: you very much, eight dudes. We should have We should

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Speaker 1: have done this entire podcast from one bed together, like

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Speaker 1: we're the monkeys or something. How do you know? How

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Speaker 1: does the listener know that we're not you just claim anything.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to make this all fit with the with

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Speaker 1: the with the with the author's argument and your disagreement

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Speaker 1: with it. They're tim So getting back to the whole

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Speaker 1: rural thing. So he talks about people in small towns

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Speaker 1: and their sense of driver community apparently comes from living

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Speaker 1: in that town, I guess is the most saying. But

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Speaker 1: there's no doubt when when you're from rural America, like

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Speaker 1: I'm in the Midwest, the idea of therapists and medication

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Speaker 1: for your mental problems is just non existent. It just

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Speaker 1: it doesn't exist. Everybody's fine, and you look at the

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Speaker 1: you watch TV and the people who live in big

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Speaker 1: cities and the the the classic like soap opera woman

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Speaker 1: who's having a glass of uh scotch there in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the day and seeing a therapist. If like

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Speaker 1: that just doesn't exist. I totally agree. And here's what

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about. That is, by the way, getting

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Speaker 1: back to the rural thing. Those are the most because

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Speaker 1: I've lived the most individual people. You're gonna come aoste exactly.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what I was gonna say. Where I think

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Speaker 1: what younger thinks of as communitarianism in this idyllic, utopian

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Speaker 1: Midwest small town thing. Know what he's looking at his

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Speaker 1: communities of strong individuals who, yes, they joined teams and

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Speaker 1: they come together because they share values and whatnot. That's

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Speaker 1: perfectly I find. Individualists obviously do do that. They joined teams,

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Speaker 1: but they don't think of themselves as a collective or anything. So.

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Speaker 1: In fact, and the same thing with the Indian tribes.

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Speaker 1: Indian tribes in reality outside and not the Disney romanticized

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Speaker 1: fantasy of collectivism. In reality, Indian tribes are well known

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Speaker 1: for being hyper individualistic. A tribal chief couldn't order people

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Speaker 1: to do things. People followed him if they agreed with him.

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Speaker 1: This was sometimes a problem for tribes because you had

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Speaker 1: multiple chiefs competing against each other. Warriors in the Lakota

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Speaker 1: Wars were well known for individual combat. They had a

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Speaker 1: hard time strategizing as a as a battalion or something

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Speaker 1: like that because they were so individualistic. So it's the

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Speaker 1: individualist ethos that is healthy about these small town communities,

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Speaker 1: and that's why people come together on mutually shared Once again,

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Speaker 1: I wish Elizabeth Warren was here to weigh in on this.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, but Tim if if somebody catches

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Speaker 1: a bad break in rural America, small town America, his

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Speaker 1: neighbors are there to help him and it gives them

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Speaker 1: both joy and then me leave me the funk alone

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Speaker 1: after that, well, right, And I think the reason for

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Speaker 1: that is because I think helping other people or wanting

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Speaker 1: to share your happiness comes as a as a consequence

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Speaker 1: of a self healthy self image. I think a person

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Speaker 1: feels generous toward others in a healthy sense as an

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Speaker 1: overflowing of self esteem. It's an It's unhealthy when a

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Speaker 1: person says, my self value comes from my service to others,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that I help others proves that I'm

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Speaker 1: a healthy human being. No, it's that you are a

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Speaker 1: healthy human being first, and that makes you want to

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Speaker 1: share joy with other people. And I think that's what

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Speaker 1: you encounter in these in the communities that Younger is

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Speaker 1: talking about. And I think that ex plans why the

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Speaker 1: key that I thought was right about this book is

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Speaker 1: the sense of purpose, the need for a feeling that

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Speaker 1: you're doing something that really matters in the world. And

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Speaker 1: absolutely that is essential to to being a happy and

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Speaker 1: and and contributing person in your society. I just I

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Speaker 1: just think he was so excited about what he experienced

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Speaker 1: and witnessed he wanted to write about it. But if if,

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Speaker 1: if you were writing this book again today in light

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Speaker 1: of the depression epidemic and the anxiety epidemic we see

432
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 1: in the modern world, you would just tweak the thesis

433
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: of it a little bit to be exactly that Tim

434
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: you would it would it would be tweaked more to

435
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: be purpose is meaning and doing hard things. And you

436
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: know what, we all need other people in our lives

437
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: to one degree or another. Some of us need a

438
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 1: lot more community than others. And that's a variable that's

439
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,879
Speaker 1: a variable solution. But well, it's absolutely true though, I

440
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 1: think you know, I will just say different people need

441
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 1: different levels of connectedness exactly, and you will see the

442
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: book through that lens and through your own life, and

443
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: a lot of the way I view the book now

444
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: differently is is And I think the same as for

445
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: Joe too, is raising kids over the last five years

446
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 1: in social media world, in depression world and anxiety world,

447
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: and kind of seeing how some of my kids can

448
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 1: deal with social media just fine and be completely individualistic

449
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 1: and just have a little bit of contact face to

450
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: face with humans and be totally fined. Others of my

451
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 1: kids melt down in that situation. But it's not It's

452
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 1: not that because they're not fighting a war. It's because

453
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 1: they're just not getting enough one to one human meaningful interaction.

454
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: Well you you, Joe and Jack, you both have friends

455
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: and family members who are currently in the military or

456
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: were at least recently in the military, rather just um

457
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 1: just retired with a disability because he can't hear anymore

458
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: being in the military. But so, I I sort of

459
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 1: suspect that you guys see something a lot more in

460
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: this book than I do, since I mean, I have

461
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: a few friends who in the military, but not nowhere

462
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: as deep as you do. Yeah, well, and yeah, that's

463
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: absolutely true. But then the books about several different things simultaneously,

464
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: and the one that really got to me, and the

465
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: one that I found most convincing, was not you know

466
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: and sometimes Tim and I love you, I really do.

467
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: I have so much respect for you. But your your

468
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 1: communitarianism argument seemed a little loyally in that we all

469
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: need to one degree or another community, and I think

470
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 1: the modern world has ill suited to provide it because

471
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: it's so easy. It's the easiest thing to be isolated,

472
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 1: and and there there's a great deal of money being

473
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: made um tempting us in di isolation. I just know

474
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: it's not healthy for my psyche. I'm just interested. Do

475
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: you deny Maslow's hierarchy of needs the whole belongingness thing?

476
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: Do you just take that little layer out of there?

477
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: Or what? Tim No? I just I think that the

478
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: concept of belonging needs to be understood with with more subtlety.

479
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: And that is there are different kinds of belonging. There's

480
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: the kind of person who says, I define my life

481
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: based on what other people think of me, or what

482
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 1: other people think about the world in general, or how

483
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: I fit in with other people, or how much good

484
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: I do for other people, or how much harm I

485
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 1: do to other people. And then on the other hand,

486
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: there's the kind of person who says, I'm I'm a

487
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: human being, and I have dreams and hopes and desires

488
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: and longings and talents and skills, and I live my

489
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: life and other people who appreciate my values or whose

490
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: values I appreciate, come we come together on mutually acceptable terms,

491
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: and that's friendship. And the problem is that a lot

492
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: of these discussions of belonging blur those two things, and

493
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 1: often in a dangerous way that suggests that that you

494
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: should draw meaning from from other people, and I very

495
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: much disagree with that. Well, it's interesting because it depends

496
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: on how you slice that, because like, if I look

497
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: at my own life at my current age, the two

498
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: and I was, I'm I'm I'm well, I don't know.

499
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: Joke could probably describe me better than I can, but

500
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: I am. I have been a loner my whole life.

501
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: But the two most gratifying things I've done in my

502
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: life are raise kids as part of a family and

503
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: this show because it's part of a team. None of

504
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: the stuff I did completely by myself really has left

505
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: that much of a mark. And I and I have

506
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: a similar experience. I mean, I fiercely individualist, though I am.

507
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: I work for a nonprofit that represents people for free

508
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: in court because I believe in the cause that we're doing,

509
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: and I enjoy getting to know the people that I

510
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: work with, and I feel a sense of teamship with

511
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: with people also. But I think the real difference is

512
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 1: that I don't see myself as valuable in terms of

513
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: my belonging to the team. Instead, I see the team

514
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: is valuable insofar as it is a part of a

515
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: well balanced, well considered life. You know. One of the highlights,

516
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: literally I highlighted it in the book was um. He's

517
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: quoting uh Oh, a doctor at Mount Sinai Hospital in

518
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: New York City who is talking about tts D, among

519
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: other things, but says, if you want to make a

520
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: society work, then you don't keep underscoring the places where

521
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: you're different. You underscore your shared humanity. I'm appalled by

522
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: how much people focus on differences. Why are you focusing

523
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: on how different you are from one another and not

524
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: on the things that unite us? Um, I think that's

525
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: absolutely true. I see it in the tribal politics of

526
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: the day, and in the sub sub subcategories of race

527
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: and ethnicity and sects and the rest of it, and

528
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: how we're all supposed to um run together in a

529
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: herd based on that subdivision. At the same time, though,

530
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about Kurt Vonneghan one of my favorite books

531
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: of all time, Cat's Cradle, in which he talks about

532
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: a lot of these associations we have are really kind

533
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: of fake. They're imposed on us, and if we thought

534
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: about them we'd realize they're you know, they're not real,

535
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: they exist in the ether. But but then I think,

536
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: you know, unless you're truly self delusional, if you feel

537
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: like part of a group and you love and are loved, uh,

538
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 1: what the hell is the difference? I mean, I I

539
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: go back and forth between kind of extremes about cynicism

540
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: about like, for instance, yesterday I was wearing a University

541
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: of Illinois fighting a line I flace and I was

542
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: a big sports fan. I went there as I went

543
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 1: to the games, and I still wear the swag and

544
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: stuff like that. But then I went back with my

545
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: daughter to take a look at the college to see

546
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: if she wanted to get there. And because Illinois is

547
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: going broke thanks to the Democratic leadership in that state,

548
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 1: the university has gotten crappy. I mean, it's just not impressive.

549
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: The programs aren't good, that the tour was shoddy, and

550
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: I think, why why am I still proud of being

551
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: in that tribe? It's just silly. Yeah, well it's funny.

552
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: I had underlined the same passage in the book myself

553
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: and I wrote next to it, because differences are what

554
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: freedom is about. Now, I think you can have both

555
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: views and that is the question. The question is what

556
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: kind of differences are you talking about? If we're talking

557
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: about a shared humanity. Absolutely, that's an important message, an

558
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: important thing to always keep in mind. If we're talking

559
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: about individual differences, like this person is special because this

560
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: person is a great artist or a great scientist or

561
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: something that's great. But if we're saying, well, I belong

562
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: to the big enders and you belong to the little enders,

563
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: and and that that sort of difference is ridiculous because

564
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: it's not a real not a real difference, as he said.

565
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: And and you know, speaking of you, you mentioned your

566
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: a novel you like that came to mind. I had

567
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: written down a couple of times one of my very

568
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: favorite novels, my very favorite science fiction writer, probably my

569
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: very favorite writer of all time, gut named John Varley.

570
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: He wrote a novel his very best novels, called Steel

571
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: Beach and the Whole. The main character this is set

572
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: in you know, science fiction future. Main characters a person

573
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: who keeps killing herself over and over again. And the

574
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: mystery is why does she keep finding herself alive again afterwards?

575
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: And gradually the point comedy, the gradually the plot unravels

576
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: that it turns out that what's going on is this

577
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: the whole culture is suffering from a sense of depression

578
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: because they have no goals. And the steel beach referred

579
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: to in the title is that is that they've washed

580
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: on shore on this future where they don't have any

581
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: plans or anything to work together for or to try

582
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: and promote, and so they feel life is senseless and

583
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: what's the point and the the climax of the story.

584
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: Of course, as they come together to come up with

585
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: a plan to travel to the stars, well, that came

586
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: to mind repeatedly before the exactly that reason. People do

587
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: need a sense of purpose. They need to have a

588
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: sense that they've got a project that's worth devoting themselves to,

589
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: and that does give them a sense of self esteem.

590
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: I think two things I want to point out real

591
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: quick here, because there's one elephant in the room that

592
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: we have to mention, and that's that as as the

593
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: four of us sit here and talk about how much

594
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: we like to be alone versus how much we like

595
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: to be in a group setting, I mean, if it

596
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: dawns upon me that we've got four loaners who really

597
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: like individualism on this kind this discussion and I think

598
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: I think maybe what you're seeing is that Tim is

599
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: the furthest one toward that extreme, and Joe might be

600
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: the furthest one towards the middle of the room. That's

601
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: one observation. The second thing is, don't you guys think

602
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: that part of the reason our politics have become so

603
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: tribalistically poisoned is because we do not have enough community

604
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: and tribalism in our lives anymore well shared purpose maybe

605
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: I don't think, you know, the survival of the nation

606
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: is a pretty good purpose that we've shared at a

607
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: lot of points. We've Yeah, but we're we're now we

608
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: have less of that community feeling in many ways with

609
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: the social media world, and so now we're it's almost

610
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: like a lot of us because we do a lot

611
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: of people do have that need for tribe, we're we're

612
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: we're using political party as a surrogate for what we

613
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: should have a face to face real totally, totally, yeah, No,

614
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: I feel that put in a word here for for

615
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: the religious side of this, you know, as you as

616
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: you guys know, I'm not religious myself, but one thing

617
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: that the non religious community has never been able to

618
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: really come up with is a solution for this on

619
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: their side, for what people get from going to church

620
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: every Sunday, that sense of of community and fellowship and

621
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: knowing your other people and caring about other people and

622
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: feeling you're valued, and our side has really not come

623
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: up with that. So as society becomes increasingly secularized, people

624
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: look for some substitute for that, and I think they

625
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: find it primarily in terms of politics, but also in

626
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: in this sort of your version of politics that we

627
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: have going on right now. Where as you pointed out

628
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: to the other day, there's there's now a bill pending

629
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: in the legislature to make it illegal to put boys

630
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: toys and girls toys in different aisles and toy stores. Ye,

631
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: hammering the hell out of that one. That sort of

632
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: culturalized politics, I think is for a lot of people

633
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: have substitute for religion in their lives. Yeah, that's absolutely true.

634
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: And we could go on and on about progressive is

635
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: um as a uh, you know, religion substitute, but perhaps

636
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: another day I would just say, in general, you will

637
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: if you feel at all dislocated and lonely in a crowd, um,

638
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: I think you will find this book interesting and and

639
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: frankly Honestly, I think you'd have to be a half

640
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: wit to to read this book and want to run

641
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: off and join the Indians. I think most people, most people, well,

642
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: it sounds got his teams concerned. I think most people

643
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: will take from it. Elizabeth won't have me. Most people

644
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: will take from it what they need and kind of

645
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: put aside the rest. You know. One one thing that

646
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: I personally was reminded of and rereading it was it

647
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 1: was like the vitamins I'm not getting in my diet,

648
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: relating to other human beings, UM this uh, and and

649
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: realizing something about myself and deciding that I want to UM.

650
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: There are things I want to do outside the radio

651
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: show that I haven't been doing, and I'm missing those

652
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: vitamins in my diet. And that's you know, specifically doing

653
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: something of purpose for people who need it UM and

654
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: or doing getting out there and doing a project, you know,

655
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: of any sort. I went through a period I I

656
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: had what I don't know that this was right after

657
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: I got out of college. I went through a period

658
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: where I had an experience that I would call PTSD

659
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: of a sort. It was nothing even nowhere near approaching

660
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: something A soldier had gone through. But it was a

661
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: severely depressed period of my life, and I I brought

662
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: on by what uh an incident that occurred in college.

663
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: And after that, in fact, there was a point where

664
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: I contemplated suicide, and I found that what helped build

665
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: me out of that was forcing myself to go do something.

666
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: I remember very one particular moment when I said, I

667
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 1: am going to go to this museum downtown and see

668
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: that what. I don't care what they've got, I'm gonna

669
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: go see this exhibit. So I went down there and

670
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: and went to this museum, and it felt so good

671
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: driving home that day, just because I had done something,

672
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: and building slowly from there to have one project or

673
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: another that you care about, and then you know, eventually

674
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: law school came along, and my career came along, and

675
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: my marriage came along, and things, and it built on

676
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: itself that I feel like I have a life as

677
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: purpose in meeting. But yeah, there are times in your

678
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: life when all that stuff can get stripped away and

679
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: then you look around and you think, why do I

680
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: even bother existing at all? And the first step sometimes

681
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 1: has to be to force yourself to do something first

682
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: and look for the reasons later. That's so powerful, and

683
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really important, and it doesn't even have

684
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: to be as big as driving down to museum. I mean,

685
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: when some people get when they get to that level,

686
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: it can be just get up, make my bed and

687
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: brush my teeth today. Absolutely true. That's absolutely true. And

688
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: that's why toward people sometimes I think sometimes people think

689
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: that talk about the rising suicide rate or the opioid

690
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: crisis and stuff, you know, I've I don't know, I

691
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: have mixed feelings about that because I don't know what

692
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 1: these particular people are going through. But the bottom line

693
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: fact is make yourself call for help if you need it,

694
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: and take the step, no matter how minute or silly

695
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: it might seem to you, to do something so that

696
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: by when you go to bed that night, you can

697
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: say at least I did such and such, and then

698
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: the next day do a little bit more and do

699
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: a little bit more. And I just want to underscore

700
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: what Joe just said in relation to this, because I

701
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: think it's it's one of the most powerful things I've

702
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: taken from the Armstrong and Getty Show, and that's that

703
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: social media and the modern world has enabled us to

704
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: pretend we have real connections with people through face time

705
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: and texting and posts, and that makes it We're not

706
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: getting the nutrition we need to feed our souls, and

707
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: we're those of us that are more food is so

708
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: good exactly, And you guys have done it, and it's

709
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: I just think it's it's it's it's perfect. It's a

710
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: perfect analogy for what's going on. So those of us

711
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: that have a proclivity to want to stay alone and

712
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: isolate ourselves confined that geez, now it's been six days

713
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: since I've been with other people, and I feel pretty bad.

714
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: I need to get out, but I got enough junk

715
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: food to give me through and I'm just making it worse. Yeah,

716
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: I'm just making it worse underneath the surface. Yeah, not

717
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: to stroke Joe and Jack's egos any more than necessary,

718
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: but I totally agree that one of the reasons why

719
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: I think the show released succeeds so well is because

720
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: it's not constantly ranting about politics, but you stop and

721
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: take a step back and talk about your families or

722
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: something funny you saw the other day, or some book

723
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: you're reading that you enjoy, or something like that. Because

724
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: in today's world, it is very easy to get stuck

725
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: on that constant twenty four hour drip of news and outrage,

726
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: and that's your identity instead of saying, no, there's something

727
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: deeper and more long term here. Well, when after you've

728
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: observed it for a while and you have a couple

729
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: of brain cells to rub together, you realize so much

730
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: of it's stupid anyway. I mean, it's just it is

731
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: purely tribalism. You're shouting gobbledegook at each other, just of

732
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: a slightly different accent, but anyway, tried by Sebastian Younger,

733
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: best thing you'll ever read, or a horror against you

734
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: man for only the pro war, pro tornado crowd. More tornadoes. No. Now,

735
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: as far as our next book, you know, it's Jack's

736
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: turn to big one. And I'm really kind of scared

737
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: of this because I know he reads these enormous tombs

738
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: to be Bernie sanders By Please Please, Bernie Biography, seven

739
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: volumes on the life of Lyndon Johnson's I've put some

740
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: thought into that. I'll come up with something. Can I

741
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: just end with my favorite quote in the book? Sure

742
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: it was. It was in a portion of the book

743
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: where they were summarizing studies that have been done in

744
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: the early two thousand's on people and mental health and

745
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: and and the feeling of belongingness. And it was summarizing

746
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 1: a study from the Jar of Effective Disorders in twelve

747
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: where they had looked at a bunch of other studies,

748
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: and it just said, in effect, humans have dragged a

749
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: body with a long hominid history into an overload, into

750
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: an over fed, malnourished, sedentary, sun deficient, sleep deprived, and

751
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: socially isolating environment with dire consequence. I love that stuff,

752
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,439
Speaker 1: the stuff that we we just change of hat has

753
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: happened too fast for evolution to keep up with. I

754
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: just love that stuff. Maybe it'll be a book about that.

755
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, sure, so I should join the Indians or

756
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: for a calamity. Well, I don't know. The fry bread

757
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: might be a problem for your evolutionarily underdeveloped body. But no,

758
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: it's absolutely true. That's the cause of things like like

759
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: our obesity problem and stuff is we are too fat

760
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: and happy for our own good in many respects. I agree,

761
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: speaking for myself. Thanks guys, always stimulating, Thank you, Thank you, gentlemen.

762
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: Extra large