1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: You know, I think it's safe to say that this 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: last year has certainly turned our lives upside down, and 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: along the way, a lot of people have found themselves 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: thinking about our society, our economy, our democracy, our world 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: in new ways. In other words, we've been experiencing a 8 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: paradigm shift. And today I'm talking to three people who 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: are actually in the business of helping to bring about 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: new ways of thinking. We'll hear from Reschmasa Johnny, who 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: created an incredible organization called Girls Who Code, and she's 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: working hard now to change the way our country thinks 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: about and values women's work. I'll also be talking to 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania State Representative and US Senate candidate Malcolm Kenyada, who 15 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: is part of a generation of young people changing the 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: face of our politics. But first, I'm talking to Politzer 17 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: Prize winning writer Isabel Wilkerson. I first came across Isabel 18 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: Wilkerson when she published her bestseller, which won the Pulitzer Prize, 19 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,639 Speaker 1: called The Warmth of other Sons, which chronicled the great 20 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: migration of Black Americans out of the Jim Crow South. 21 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: Last summer, Isabel published another groundbreaking historic book, this one 22 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: called Cast, The Origins of Our Discontents. In Cast, she 23 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: argues that America is divided up into a rigid hierarchy. 24 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: There's a dominant cast, a subordinate cast, and systems that 25 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: keep them separate and unequal. Race, writes, is the visible 26 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: agent of the unseen force of Cast. It's a profound 27 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: insight and like so many other readers, I could not 28 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: put her book down. So I was delighted to welcome 29 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 1: Isabel to the podcast. This book Cast is such an 30 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 1: important effort to help us all better understand how we 31 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: ended up where we are. And you know, the word 32 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: cast is not one that historically has been used in 33 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: reference to America. Yes, you're absolutely right. And one of 34 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: the things I would say is that when you are 35 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: seeking to inspire a paradigm shift and how we think 36 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: about ourselves, and sometimes it requires new language to be 37 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: able to see beneath what we thought we knew about ourselves, 38 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: and the word cast sort of forces us to think differently, 39 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: just because that's something that we think of for other 40 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: kind treats. That's something we applied to India. Maybe feudal Europe. 41 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: How would that apply to us? You know, I first 42 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: came to the term when I was doing research for 43 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: the Warmth of other Sons, in which I was writing 44 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: about the experiences of people who had fled the gym 45 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: Pro South and trying to describe what that world was like. 46 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: What was it that would propel people, six million people, 47 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: the largest internal migration in our country's history, to flee 48 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: all that they known and to seek refuge in the 49 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: rest of the country. And it ended up being that 50 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: there were people who anthropologists who went to the gym 51 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: Pro South during the depth of that era, and they 52 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: did field work and they were they emerged from their 53 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: work using the term cast. And so that's how I 54 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: came to use the word cast. But cast essentially is, 55 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, an artificial, arbitrary graded ranking of human value 56 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: in a society. And I want you to explain to 57 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: our listeners why you choose not to talk about racism 58 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: and instead focus our attention and your argument and un 59 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: cast because you write, race in the United States is 60 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: the visible agent of the unseen force of cast. Cast 61 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: is the bones, race is the skin, right, And well, 62 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: the reason is because when we look at it from 63 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: a perspective of cast, and we look at it. You know, 64 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: I identified eight pillars of cast, eight characteristics that would 65 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: be present in any cast hierarchy, and it turns out 66 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: that every single one of those is evidenced in our society, 67 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: every single one. You know, starting with the laws of 68 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: nature or divine will, the presumptions that a group of 69 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: people is, by divine order to be assigned at the 70 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,799 Speaker 1: very top, and then there are those who are consigned 71 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: to the very bottom. Often scriptures used to support that. 72 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: History shows that going all the way back to Noah 73 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: and his sons, with the assumptions about it happened to 74 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: Ham compared to his brothers, was deeply and very common 75 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: presumed justification for slavery in early in our country's history, 76 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: and then going towards pollution versus purity, the idea that 77 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: there was one group that was to be protected at 78 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: all costs from the potential pollution that could accrue from 79 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: exposure to interaction with those who were deemed beneath them. 80 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: You know, only until the nineteen sixties the Civil rights legislation, 81 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: African Americans could not swim in the same waters as 82 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: white people. There were strict laws on who could marry whom, 83 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: which is a term known as endogamy. And we as 84 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: a country had laws that prohibited people from marrying across 85 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: you know, these divided lines has created lines for most 86 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: of our country. System didn't end until seven, of course, 87 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: with the loving case. So I described these things as 88 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: a reminder to ourselves to see beneath what we have 89 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: grown accustomed to work customed to the language of race, 90 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: which is merely one of the many metrics that could 91 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: be used to divide any group of people. And we 92 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: know that in other societies that have deep hierarchies, such 93 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: as ours, they might use a different metrics. They might 94 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: use religion, they might use ethnicity, they might use language, 95 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: they might use any number of things. This is a reminder. 96 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 1: This allows us to see what is underlying the divisions 97 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: that we are accustomed to identifying among ourselves, and to 98 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: see that there are points of intersection that we can 99 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: learn from. So for a lot of people, this is 100 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: a new way of talking about American society. And I'd 101 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: be interested in what kind of responses you've gotten. Well, 102 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: you know it is it is unaccustomed language. So this 103 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: is of course not to diminish the impact unroll that 104 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: race has become in our society. You know, race, of 105 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: course is a social construct, but racism is real underneath. 106 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: That is the underlying purpose for why this metric was 107 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: used at all. And the metric was used because there 108 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: needed to be a way, they felt, the colonists felt 109 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: there needed to be way to maintain both the power 110 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: of those at the top and then to make sure 111 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: that things get done in the society that people might 112 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: not otherwise want to do. So. Yes, there are people 113 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: who have been awakened by this, you know, have I 114 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: hear from people all the time who say, once you 115 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: become aware of it, you can't stop thinking about it. 116 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: Once you see it, then you start seeing it everywhere 117 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: you turn. You know, I have lots of metaphors in 118 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: the book, and one of them has to do with 119 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: the house. I mean, we are the inheritors of an 120 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: old house. And when you have an old house, you 121 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: never say, well, I've I've got a new furnace, so 122 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: I'm all done. I don't have to do anything else 123 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: to the house. The houses done, I don't have to 124 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: think about it again. With an old house, you know, 125 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: the work is never done. There's always something that needs 126 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: to be addressed. You don't expect it to be done, 127 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: and you you often you don't want to go in 128 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: the basement after a reign. But you know that if 129 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: you don't go into the basement to check out what 130 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: has happened, the inaction is at your own peril. You know, 131 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: ignorance is no protection against the consequences of inaction. So 132 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: I've found that people you know, they you know, are 133 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: marking up the book, they should put pictures of the 134 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: of the book up there. They I mean, I'm amazed 135 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: that in the era of COVID, it's been its own 136 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: kind of solace and inspiration or insight to people who 137 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: at a time when people are looking for ways to 138 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: understand how in the world did we get here? And 139 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: I should also say that, you know, this is an 140 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: era that we're in in which so many people have said, 141 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, I don't recognize my country. This is not 142 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: this is not the country that I know, or um, 143 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: this is not what America stands for. And whenever I 144 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: hear that, I, you know, say to myself, and they're 145 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: far too many people don't really know our country's true history. 146 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: And you know how people struggle with this if they're 147 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: at all conscious, you know, if they have any amount 148 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: of self awareness. Because one of the common refrains, and 149 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: you take this on in the book, and I'm very 150 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: happy you do, is people say, well, look, I wasn't 151 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: here four hundred years ago three d two hundred, a 152 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: hundred years ago. My people came from filling the blank 153 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: wherever people came from. I didn't have anything to do 154 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: with this. You can't hold me responsible. Well, that's one 155 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: of the reasons why I used the house metaphor, because 156 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, when you take possession of an old house, 157 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: you did not build that house, and no one says 158 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: that you built the house. However, you are now the 159 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: current occupants of that house. Anything good or bad that's 160 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: going on with it is your responsibility. It doesn't matter 161 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: so much how we got there when it comes to 162 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: the condition that we find ourselves in. It's not this 163 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: is really not about a portioning blame, because obviously these 164 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: are we're going back many many centuries. We're not talking about, 165 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: you know, the the guilt that someone should feel because 166 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: of something that happened long ago. We're talking about taking 167 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: responsibility for and being accountable for that which you are 168 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: doing now. Being responsible for taking seriously um what one 169 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: can do now now that you are in possession of 170 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: this old house. I would also say that one reason 171 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: that the cast can, I think be so helpful for 172 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: us is because it focuses us on the structure of 173 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: a thing as opposed to the personal. It focuses us 174 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: on the infrastructure of the hierarchy that we have inherited. 175 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: You're born to it. You did not ask to be 176 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: born to the group that is dominant in this country. 177 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 1: You did not ask to be going to born to 178 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: the groups that maybe in the middle, you didn't ask for. 179 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: This is what we've all inherit. Then the question that 180 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: comes what does that mean? And that has created unearned 181 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: benefits to people without having done anything. For example, when 182 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: we look at housing, any person who was born to 183 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: what has been historical dominant casts in our country, if 184 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: they had parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who owned property 185 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: before nineteen, then they were the beneficiaries, through no action 186 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: on their own, of a system that legally excluded people 187 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: who were born to what I call the subordinated group. 188 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't about hating or not liking a certain people. 189 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: It was the structure that we inherited, and this is 190 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: to awaken people to the structure that we've inherited so 191 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: that we can recognize how we got to where we are. 192 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: That it's not personal. It has to do with the 193 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: infrastructure that we were born to. We're taking a quick break. 194 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: Stay with us. As you point out, uprooting the cast 195 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 1: system in hearts and habits can be even and more 196 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: complicated than removing it from our laws. So how do 197 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: we go about challenging these deep seated beliefs, Well, that 198 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: is a really big question. And you know, as I 199 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: approached this book, I approached as a building inspector. Would 200 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, this is the old This is the old 201 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: house that we are now currently in possession of all 202 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: of us, And this is the report on the health 203 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: and condition of this old house that we're in. The 204 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: building inspector is not the one that makes the repairs. 205 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: They are the ones that issue the report. This is 206 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: not a ten point plan, it's not a how to. 207 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: Book is shining a light on what we otherwise could 208 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: not see in hopes that those who know these systems 209 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: best can begin to do the work of what is 210 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: necessary to overhaul those parts of our society and overhaul 211 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: is what is needed in so many parts of our society, 212 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: and criminal justice and mass incarceration, education of course, so 213 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: many elements. I mean, we this our era has reminded 214 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: us of the need to do this tremendous inspection so 215 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: that we can get to have a chance at truly 216 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: getting beneath what we have inherited. But I also like 217 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: to think of this as a way of recognizing maybe 218 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: the most important thing of all, you know, to begin with, 219 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: is to at least know the history. I mean, you 220 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: cannot fix what you don't know. So I would say 221 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: my first wish would be for people to learn the history. 222 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: You know. One of the countries, one of the societies 223 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: that I looked at with this book was Germany. What 224 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: had that country done um in the intervening years after 225 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: the war? And it turns out that they have spent 226 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of energy to educate the population. You know, 227 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: school children begin learning about the history from as early 228 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: as they can begin to comprehend it. There's a massive, 229 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: massive structure in the middle of Berlin, a major world city. 230 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: It takes up several of all fields of space. It 231 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: is the memorial to those who Paris in the Holocaust, 232 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: and you know it's there, but it has no signage 233 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: because the people get they know the history, they learned 234 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: the history. And I think that that's why I would 235 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: suggest that that would be the first place to start, 236 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: like actually read the instruction manual for whatever it is, 237 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: you just have taken possession of That's what history is. 238 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: As the owner of an old house, I truly relate 239 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: to that metaphor. But when you write about Nazi Germany, 240 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: I think it's shocking to most American readers that you 241 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: go into the history, which very tragically points out how 242 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: those around Hitler looked to Jim Crow America for the 243 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: kinds of laws that were used to enforce cast distinctions 244 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: in every aspect of life. It is just it's shocking 245 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: that German eugenicists were in dialogue, constant dialogue with American 246 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: eugenicis and the years leading up to the Third Roich 247 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: and it's just absolutely stunned to learn that. And then 248 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: it turned out that American eugenesis were writing these books 249 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: that were huge bestsellers in Nazi Germany, and we're so 250 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: popular with the Nazis that they incorporated the books written 251 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: by American eugenicists into their own curriculum for their children. 252 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: And then, of course the Nazis did not need anyone 253 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: to teach them how to hate at all. They did 254 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: not need that. But they did send researchers to the 255 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: United States to study how America have the United States 256 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: had managed to subjugate African Americans. They looked at those 257 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: anti missaggenation laws and I mentioned earlier, Uh, they look 258 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: at the ways that the United States had managed to 259 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: define who was white, and who was black, and who 260 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: was Chinese. They were fascinated with the fractions that were 261 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: assigned to an individual to determine what their quote unquote 262 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: race was, and they studied that as they were formulating 263 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: what would ultimately become the Nuremberg Loss. I imagine you 264 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: had some dark moments when you were writing this book, 265 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: because it's so powerful to come to grips with what 266 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: led to this system that we are living in. But 267 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: at the end of your book, to me anyway, you 268 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: sound a very hopeful note and I just wanted to 269 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: read a little bit of truly the very end of 270 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: your book is about because I found myself tearing up. 271 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: You know, you read this book and it's hard going. 272 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: I mean there were times when I had to put 273 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: it down, you know, take a deep breath or two, 274 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: and then pick it back up. But I want our 275 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: listeners to hear what you say as you end this book. 276 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: In a world without cast, being male or female, light 277 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: or dark, immigrant or native born would have no bearing 278 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: on what anyone was perceived as being capable of. A 279 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: world without cast would set everyone free. Oh to read 280 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: that at the end, even now, I'm getting all emotional 281 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: about it. Um, So I want to give you the 282 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, the last however, many words to talk about 283 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: whether you're hopeful and what makes you hopeful if you 284 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: are well. I wouldn't have written the book if I 285 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: wasn't hopeful, you know. I wanted to be able to 286 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 1: point the way to what was holding us back so 287 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: that we could actually have a reason for that hope. 288 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: And you know, to your point of the last lines 289 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: of the book, I'm kind of haunted by all that 290 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: our species has lost as a result of these false 291 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: divisions of cast. And I think about how on all 292 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: those sugar plantations and cotton fields and tobacco fields were 293 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: opera singers and jazz musicians and playwrights and novelists and 294 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: lawyers and accountants, and all kinds of people who never 295 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: ever had the chance to be what they could have 296 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: been or should have been in their hearts. You think 297 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: about how slavery went on for so long, two and 298 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: forty six years. He had twelve generations of people held 299 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: back in a fixed place, unable to be who they 300 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: actually were inside, followed by another nearly one hundred years 301 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: of Jim crofmal segregation. And so I think about all 302 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: that was lost for them, of course, the prime targets 303 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: of the Cassistan, but also for the rest of our society. 304 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: Where would we be if, instead of the of holding 305 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: back an entire group of people down for so long, 306 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: if people have been permitted to live out their lives 307 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: and to pursue the strengths that they had innately, as 308 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: opposed to the false assignments roles that are forced upon 309 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: a person based upon in our society, the lineage that's 310 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: associated with what we call race, where would we be 311 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: as a society? And I wrote this so that we 312 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: would would finally recognize the depth of what we're facing, 313 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: so that we can begin the hard work of moving 314 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: forward and making the creed that our country stands for, 315 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: make it real, Make it real for every one of us. 316 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: Isabel Wilkerson. I just hope that your strong sense of 317 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: what's possible can be embraced by our larger society. Thank 318 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: you for joining me today. I wish you the very best, 319 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: stay safe and healthy as we go through the end 320 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: of this pandemic. Do you as well? Thank you for 321 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: having me. Isabel Wilkerson's most recent book is called Cast, 322 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: the Origins of Our Discontents, and I have to say 323 00:19:54,160 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: you will be changed if you read Cast. I first 324 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: met Reshma so Johnny years ago. I had met her 325 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: around New York as a bright young woman, first generation American, 326 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: who was interested in politics and public service. And I 327 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: have watched her career as she has created this extraordinary organization, 328 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: Girls Who Code, an educational nonprofit that introduces young girls 329 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: to coding and computer science. Almost ten years later, Girls 330 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 1: who Code has reached more than three hundred thousand girls 331 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: throughout the US, Canada, and the United Kingdom. In two six, 332 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 1: Reshma gave a Ted talk titled Brave Not Perfect about 333 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: changing the way we raise and treat girls, and boy, 334 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: that talk really struck a chord with me. These days, 335 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: Reshma is focused on how the pandemic has cast a 336 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: bright light on gender inequities that put women, especially mothers, 337 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: at a disadvantage. Rushma lives in New York City with 338 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: her husband, The Hall, and their two sons, six year 339 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: old Sean and Si, who was born during the pandemic. 340 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 1: It is so great to see you, Rushmat, and I 341 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: have to ask, first of all, how are you and 342 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: your family doing as we enter, you know, the second 343 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: year of the pandemic. We're doing great, as great as 344 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: you could be. I mean, I definitely feel like I'm 345 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: reaching the point where I'm about to lose my mind, 346 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: but you know, we're hanging in there and we're just 347 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: grateful for our health. Amen to that. I'm so happy 348 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: to hear it. You know, you had a powerful Ted 349 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: talk a few years ago with a phrase that has 350 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: become something of a mantra for a lot of people. 351 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: Brave not perfect. What does that mean to you? Starts 352 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: when we're really young. If you like, take five minutes 353 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: and you sit in any playground in America, you'll see 354 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: exactly what I'm talking about. You know, we tell our 355 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: boys to climb to the top of the monkey bars 356 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: and just jump head first. But with our girls, it's like, 357 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: be careful, honey, don't swing too high. Did you take 358 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,239 Speaker 1: that toy away from her? Give it back? And it 359 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: begins with this need to protect them from physical harm, 360 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: and then it extends to emotional harm. And it's different 361 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: with our boys. You know, my son Sean a couple 362 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: of years ago, was afraid of the dark. So I 363 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: go to BUYE Bye Baby, I get the nightlight, plug 364 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: in the night light to go to bed. Two minutes 365 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: later the hall. My husband would come up the stairs 366 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: and you take out the nightlight and Seawan would scream. 367 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: So we would do this for a week and finally 368 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: I said, to know, what's your problem. You know, he's 369 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: afraid of the dark. And my husband, my feminist husband, 370 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: looks at me and says, we got to toughen him up. Ah, 371 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: And I said, no, home, if Sean was a girl, 372 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: would you let her have the nightlight? And to its credit, 373 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,239 Speaker 1: he admitted it. He's like, you're right, I would. So 374 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: it's like not conscious, but it has severe implication. This 375 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, this perfection is because what happens is we 376 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: get addicted to perfection. That's a great phrase. We draw 377 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: within the lines, right, We stick in the jobs that 378 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: were good at because we don't want to feel failure 379 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: and rejection. And so that sense of perfection affects every 380 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: aspect of our life. You know. You see it in college, 381 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: where when young women get to be in an economics major, 382 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: they drop out, whereas better like I got a d 383 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: I'm running for president, right, completely different ramifications. You see 384 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: it in mental health, you know, women suffer from anxiety 385 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 1: and depression at twice the rate of men. And then 386 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: you see it in leadership, where women won't apply for 387 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: a job unless they meet a hundred percent of the qualifications, 388 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: whereas for men. It's so you know, my point is 389 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: is like, if we're waiting to be perfect to lead, 390 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: we'll never close the leadership gap. That's exactly right. I 391 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: think the antidote to perfectionism is bravery. I think bravery 392 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: cures it all. And I don't even mean bravery in 393 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: the big moments of you know me too, or even 394 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: running for Congress. I mean bravery in the small moments 395 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: when you raise your hand and you don't know exactly 396 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: what you want to say, but you want to take 397 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: up space, or when someone bumps into you in the street. 398 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: You don't immediately say I'm sorry. I think when you 399 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: build up bravery and all of those small moments, when 400 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: that big moment comes, you're ready. Well, I think that's 401 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: a perfect segue into the amazing work that you've done 402 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: for the last ten years, because you really were animated 403 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: by your understanding of the differences that girls and boys 404 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: faced in technology. When did you first realize that was 405 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: a problem. So I was I'm a weird person to 406 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: have started a movement to teach girls to code, because 407 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: I wasn't a coder. I would have been that that 408 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: woman and that young woman who said to you, oh, 409 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: I'm not good at math and science. But in I 410 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: was running for Congress, and as you know, as part 411 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: of that, you go into schools and visit communities, and 412 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: I remember seeing like lines and lines and lines of 413 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: boys who are learning how to code or learning how 414 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: you know, to do robotics. And I thought to myself, like, 415 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: that's strange, Like where are the girls. And I knew 416 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: that like we had Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, these 417 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: companies were blowing up. I knew the consumer base was female, 418 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 1: but all the founders were men. I also knew as 419 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: the daughter of refugees that like education and job, opportunity 420 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: is everything, and that when I heard you can make 421 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty dollars as a software programmer and 422 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: there were no women and no women of color, I 423 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: was like, this is sometimes not right. And so when 424 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: I lost my race for Congress, I knew that I wasn't, 425 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, going to go back to the private center. 426 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: That I wanted to make a difference. And I said, 427 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, of all the things that I saw on 428 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: the campaign trail, what's the one thing that I kept 429 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: thinking about because it didn't make sense, and it was 430 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: girls and coding. So I spent about a year and 431 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: a half just talking to everybody knew and just understanding, like, 432 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: why aren't there women at tech? What happened? When did 433 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: it start? You know? And I learned that the world's 434 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: first programmer was a woman in a lovelace that's right 435 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 1: back in the early nineteenth century, right, and that you 436 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: had all of these women, you know, that had built 437 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: the foundation. But then around the nineteen eighties, you know, 438 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: when computer science started becoming lucrative, when coding started being cool, 439 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: it was no longer seen as secretarial right, because in 440 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: hidden figures you saw all those women. You saw the 441 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: room full of white women, the room full of black 442 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: women who were in effect coding, and it was considered, 443 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: you know, a kind of lesser job. Absolutely, and that 444 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we've seen this happen in in 445 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: the law and other professions, was that it became lucrative, 446 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: it became prestigious, it became respected, and then you started 447 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: seeing these images of the Barbie doll that says I 448 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: hate mathelitical shopping instead, or weird science or revenge of 449 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: the Nerds were suddenly built this product type that what 450 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: a computer scientist was was a dude sitting in a 451 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: basement somewhere drinking a red bull. And little girls looked 452 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: at that image and they said, well, that's not me, because, 453 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: as you know, you cannot be what you cannot see. 454 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: And so in the eighties and the nineties you just 455 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: started seeing this massive decline. And you'll talk to women 456 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: who were majoring in computer science in nineteen eighties and 457 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: they were like, it was all of a sudden, we 458 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: went from the women in my engineering class to less 459 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: than So then you decided to do something about it, 460 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why I love talking 461 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: with you because you see a problem, you want to 462 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: try to figure out how to fix it. And you 463 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: began Girls who Code. Talk a little bit about the 464 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: origin story of Girls who Code. Yeah, so you know, 465 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: I take about a year trying to understand. And it 466 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: felt like because we had pushed all these women out, 467 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: the solution at that moment was to put more young 468 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: women in it. So to build a pipeline. You know, 469 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: less one out of ten high schools offered computer science. 470 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: It wasn't really being offered in middle school. So if 471 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: felt like the right intervention was to build a program 472 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: over the summer because as you know, it's hard to 473 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: get new curriculum into the school day, and to teach 474 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: young women of code, you know, in the hopes that 475 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: they would go on to major minor and computer science 476 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: and then go into the field. And you know, again 477 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: being the daughter of refugees, I also saw in this 478 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: pipeline problem there were no black and Latina women, and 479 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: so to build the pipeline, I wanted to make sure 480 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: that half of those women were under the poverty line, 481 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: that half of those women were black and Latina. And 482 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: so in two thousand and twelve, I'm going to just 483 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: start a pilot program. I asked my friend Brian O'Kelly 484 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: if I could borrow his conference room in his office 485 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: because he had plenty of space. The first year, I 486 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: gave all the girls like fifty dollars and pizza every 487 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: day because I was like, there's no way that they're 488 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: gonna last. But like I literally, like an organizer, hand 489 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: picked my first twenty girls, found some brilliant teachers to 490 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: help me design a curriculum, and it was magical. And 491 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: I remember one week I had invited my friends from 492 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: the New York Immigration Coalition. The task that I asked 493 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: her to come talk to my students was if you 494 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: could build anything with technology to help undocumented students, what 495 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: would you build. I remember sitting there looking around that 496 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: room and watching these young women come up with these 497 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: incredible ideas. I remember saying to myself, you know what, 498 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: these girls are going to be the change makers. That's 499 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: when it clicked for me that this wasn't just about coding. 500 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: This was about building a generation of young women to 501 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: solve the problems of today and tomorrow and to be brave, 502 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: and to be brave absolutely and in fact many of 503 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: the girls who code alumni have gone on to do 504 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: some really incredible things themselves, and tell us a little 505 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: bit about you know, just a couple of stories about 506 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: the alumni. There's so so many. I mean, one of 507 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: our first students, you know, built an algorithm to help 508 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: detect whether a cancer is benign or malignant corus. She 509 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: went on to major in computer science at Michigan, and 510 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: another student, Anastasia, got the youngest patent at the University 511 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. She early her whole life experienced school shootings, 512 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: and so that was the thing as a young woman 513 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: that she kept thinking about the problem that she wanted 514 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: to figure out how to solve. And so she built 515 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: this microchip when she was a freshman in college, so 516 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: that you could put it into a gun, so when 517 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: a gun was in an area like a school, it 518 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: would immediately alert the police. One of my students most 519 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: recently started printing three D equipment for PPE for doctors 520 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: here in New York during COVID. I mean, it's just 521 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: I could go on and on, but has it changed 522 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: tech Because you created a pipeline, you have filled it 523 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: with these amazing young women who have gotten patents, who 524 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: have created inventions who have changed lives themselves. Are the 525 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: technology companies, in your opinion, more welcoming to women, especially 526 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: women of color or not. Well, here's the first thing 527 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: I'm really proud of. Remember we started talking about basically 528 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: pretty much ten years ago. If you looked into the 529 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: computer and engineering departments at any university, it would have 530 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: been like lean eighteen. The number now is at like 531 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: Stanford car Oh yeah, it's at the M I. T 532 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: s and the Stanfords, and it's almost at like, you know, 533 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: thirty percent at at Harvard. So it's moved up significantly. 534 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: So now I I thought to myself, well, great, like 535 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: we built the pipeline, so Google, Facebook, Microsoft, all the 536 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: places that you hire from, so there shouldn't be a 537 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: problem now, guess not. So that was a big I like, Oh, 538 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: it's not a pipeline problem. It is a gender problem. 539 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: It is a raised problem. It's not about talent. You 540 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,479 Speaker 1: have a broken hiring system. The problem is as the 541 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: engineers hold so much power, and we just can't assume 542 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: that people want to give up power easily, or that 543 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: they want to change and they want to have you know, 544 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: real sexual harassment training or real you know what I mean, 545 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: changing the way they interact with women so they don't 546 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: feel they have microggressions are straight out racism and sexism. 547 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: So that is the next step, and we were starting 548 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: to do that work, and then COVID nineteen happened. I 549 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: wanted to get to that. COVID nineteen happened, and one 550 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: of the things that it did was reveal what a 551 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: huge digital divide still existed in our country and how 552 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: disadvantage so many people were, particularly kids trying to be 553 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: educated remotely, and as you know so well being the 554 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: mom of a young son in the New York public schools, 555 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: I mean, trying to help your son keep learning is 556 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: a full time job, but you and your husband are 557 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: well equipped to try to do it. But the divide 558 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: with so many families is just creating a huge amount 559 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: of inequity, isn't it. Absolutely It's an impossible balancing act. 560 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: And a lot of the women in frontline jobs, essential 561 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: worker jobs, lower paid jobs, they were let go and 562 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: they had no savings to fall back on. They had 563 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: no real rescue safety net for them. So you've been 564 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: thinking a lot about that, and how would you describe 565 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: what women in this time of COVID in our country 566 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: are confronting. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Look, I you know, 567 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: I found myself at the beginning is epidemic with a newborn, 568 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: a five year old, running a women in girls organization. 569 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: As you know, when global pandemics hit, the first budgets 570 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: to be cut our ours. And I remember I'd gotten COVID. 571 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: I barely registered because I was working sixteen hours a 572 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: day and I'm one of the lucky ones. I had help. 573 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: I was able to work from home. But when I 574 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: looked on my zoom screen, every woman I knew was 575 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: just exhausted. And I think in the beginning of the 576 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: pandemic we were grinning and burying it because we're like, okay, 577 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: this will end. And then I think when September happened 578 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: and the schools didn't open, we weren't even asked, like 579 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: you know, when they figured out the cost of the 580 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: HVAC equipment and you know, teacher safety, no one said, well, okay, 581 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: if we're going to do this remote, who's going to 582 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: log them on at nine o'clock, ten o'clock, eleven o'clock 583 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: and twelve o'clock. And it was this nine fifties sensibility 584 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: that someone was going to do it, and that someone 585 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: was mobs, and especially for single moms, that is just untenable, 586 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: and nobody gave it a thought. And so I started really, 587 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,919 Speaker 1: you know, advocating on this and thinking about this because 588 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: I was also seeing this happen in the tech companies 589 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: that I was talking to, because I just saw women 590 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving. And 591 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: what scared me was that when I looked at the numbers, right, 592 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: our labor market participation is where it was night nine, 593 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: So we had lost thirty years of progress in nine months. 594 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: That's frightening. And the recent jobs reports showed that, you know, 595 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: seven thousand women actually gained jobs that didn't have children, 596 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: So this was really affecting women who had children. One 597 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: because of the schools, right, and as you've talked about before, 598 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: or the kind of instability are they open, are they closed? 599 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: How do I manage daycare? How do I manage childcare? 600 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: And the fact that we have a broken childcare system 601 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: like exacerbated that sense of uncertainty. And I think the 602 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: second thing is many women were in jobs that weren't 603 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 1: pandemic proof retail, education, healthcare, Many of these jobs weren't 604 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: coming back. And so for so many low income women 605 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: who are in these jobs that are the breadwinners, right 606 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: the vast them are the breadwinners of their family. When 607 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: they lose their job, the entire family suffers. You looked 608 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: at all of this and you thought about the consequences 609 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: of what has happened to women during the pandemic, and 610 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: you've come up with some very creative ideas. And I 611 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: want to applaud you for you know, thinking broadly and 612 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: systemically about what the pandemic has revealed and what should 613 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: be done going forward, and you came up with an 614 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: idea for what you call a martial plan for moms. 615 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: What is that? So mar plan for moms is a 616 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: three sixty plan you know that builds motherhood back better. 617 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 1: And some of the tenants of those plans is one, 618 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, monthly short term payments for mothers, because what 619 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: we've seen in this pandemic is like we're not all 620 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: going through the same thing. Some might need childcare, you know, 621 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: some might actually need money for food, and especially when 622 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: you don't have time, because mothers don't have time, it's like, 623 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 1: just give me resources so I can figure this out. 624 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: The second thing is, you know, paid leave and you 625 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: know affordable daycare. As you know, and we have so 626 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: many of our friends who have been working on this 627 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: for for so long. You know, our childcare system is 628 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: just broken, totally broken. We have to make childcare affordable, 629 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, available for every single family, because we are 630 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: one of the only nations that don't provide these services 631 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: for parents. Well, you know, one of the things that 632 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: your campaign for the Martial Plan for Moms really reminded 633 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: me of, because I've been, as you know, advocating for 634 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,479 Speaker 1: paid family leave and for quality, affordable childcare and other 635 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: support systems for parents. But we know, particularly from others, 636 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: is that this has always been an economic issue, and 637 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: it was always treated either as quote, a family issue 638 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: or a woman's issue. But just the other day, the 639 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: current chairman of the Federal Reserve, Chairman Powell, said, we 640 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: need to do something about takecare and childcare. I nearly 641 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: fell off my chair because I held the first White 642 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: House conference on childcare and I called up then Treasury 643 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 1: Secretary Bob Rubin and asked him to open the conference. 644 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: He says, well, I don't know anything about childcare, I said, 645 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: but you do know about the economy, and if you 646 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: don't have childcare, you're not going to grow the economy. 647 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: So finally the linkage is beginning to be understood. But 648 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: we still face a lot of blowback. And you've you've 649 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: seen that as you've been out advocating, you've been writing articles, 650 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: you've been running full page ads, you've been doing interviews. 651 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: You know, what are some of the pushback that you're 652 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: getting over this idea. I think the first blowback is 653 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: motherhood is a choice. You chose this, Why are you 654 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: asking the government for help? We're supposed to be martyrs. 655 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: And I think this argument about motherhood is a choice 656 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: needs to be debunked, you know, once and for all. 657 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: I think on the left too, it's complicated. I've gotten 658 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: some pushback and you know, framing it around motherhood and 659 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: why not parents and why not caregivers? And look, when 660 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: I started Girls with Code, people said, well, shouldn't all 661 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: kids learn how to code? And I said, yes, but 662 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: the gender disparity is for girls. And if you don't 663 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: name it, if you don't focus on it, you'll never 664 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: fix it. And I don't think ten years later I 665 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: would be able to say that you were almost at 666 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: fifty in computer science classes. If I had called it 667 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: kids for code, I agree with that. Similarly, here I'm 668 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: putting the focus on mother's focus, not exclusion, because what 669 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: we do for mothers will benefit everybody, because I'm not 670 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: waiting twenty years, thirty years to get back to where 671 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: we were twelve months ago. And it really is about 672 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: the way treat mothers, I e. Parents, you know in 673 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: the society that really needs to be examined and looked at. 674 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: And I also think we have an opportunity we need 675 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: to tap into that populous mom rage. Every mom I 676 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: knowe is just about done. And as someone who's been 677 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: fighting for you know, daycare, childcare and paid leaf your 678 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: whole life, you didn't see moms marching from childcare, marching 679 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: for paid leaf. You know what I think now we can. 680 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: I agree with you. Let's do it. The time and 681 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: the circumstances and the issues and the needs all seem 682 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: to converge now. And what you're trying to do, and 683 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 1: I really applaud you for this, Reshima, is you're trying 684 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: to create a movement. You're trying to build on the 685 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: work that so many others have done. And more power 686 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 1: to all of us who have been on the front 687 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: lines advocating and arguing for these changes. But this pandemic, 688 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: which has been so painful and hard on so many, 689 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: does give us an opportunity, and shame on us if 690 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: we don't use that opportunity to try to create a 691 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: political movement. I agree, and I think it's a global movement. 692 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,479 Speaker 1: And you know, I was teased like, you can't even 693 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,760 Speaker 1: call our unpaid labor unseen because our partner saw exactly 694 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: what we're doing and it still didn't make a difference. 695 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: And that just shows you that it's deeper. And it's 696 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: just it's in my family room, it's in Bombay, it's 697 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: in Karachi. Every single family is having, every single mother, 698 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: every single woman is having this conversation right now. Well, 699 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: you are an excellent person to try to lead and 700 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,720 Speaker 1: focus that conversation so that we can move towards action. 701 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 1: Reshma and I have loved our conversation and I can't 702 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: wait to see what you do next. Thank you. Reshma 703 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: is the author of Brave Not Perfect, and you can 704 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: keep up with her on social media at Reshma Sa 705 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: Johnny that's r E S H M A s A 706 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: U j A N I at thirty years old, My 707 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: next guest is already making his mark on Pennsylvania politics. 708 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: He got his start as an eleven year old serving 709 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: as a junior block captain in his neighborhood in North Philly. 710 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: I met Malcolm Kenyatta during my sixteen campaign when he 711 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: was a wonderful supporter of mine in Philadelphia. He would 712 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: introduce me at events, talk to anybody who uh he 713 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: could button hole, and I saw a charisma and capacity 714 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: for communicating in him that I found incredibly impressive. Back 715 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 1: in Malcolm Kenyatta was elected state representative for Pennsylvania's one 716 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: undered an eighty first district, becoming the first lgbt Q 717 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: person of color ever to serve in the state Assembly. 718 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: Ever since then, he's been working hard on raising the 719 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,759 Speaker 1: minimum wage, protecting workers rights, increasing access to mental healthcare, 720 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: reducing gun violence, and strengthening our digital infrastructure. And Malcolm 721 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: has big plans for two First of all, he'll be 722 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: marrying his fiancee, Dr. Matt Miller, and second he's running 723 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,360 Speaker 1: for the United States Senate. Well, I am delighted to 724 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 1: welcome you to this podcast. Malcolm. It's been a long 725 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: time since I've gotten to see you in person. And 726 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:51,839 Speaker 1: a lot has happened, uh since then, But I want 727 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 1: to start with congratulations on your engagement. And your proposal 728 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,760 Speaker 1: went viral on social media. You know, tell to what happened. 729 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: So you know what it Everything worked out. There's this 730 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: beautiful Japanese garden in here in Philly. And the whole 731 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: idea of it was that Matt was supposed to come 732 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: take pictures of me because my birthday is at the 733 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: end of July, and so I said, you come take 734 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: some pictures of me. And so he's snapping away and 735 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,959 Speaker 1: he's taking these pictures of me, and I get down 736 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: on one knee and he's like, He's like, that's not opposed. 737 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: You have to get out. What are you doing? Well? 738 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: You made a lot of people happy and and that's 739 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: been kind of a pattern for you, my friend. What 740 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: gave you the confidence and the inspiration to run for 741 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 1: office in the community where you had grown up? Yeah, so, 742 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: you know, I grew up in a very working, poor family. 743 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: My parents divorce and I was very young. My dad 744 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: was a social worker, my mom was a home health 745 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: care aid and you know, I out of taste very 746 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: early of how upside down this economy is for working people. 747 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: My mom, you know, at the being at her company 748 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: years and years and years. I think the highest sage 749 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: she ever got twelve fifty. I mean, how unfair for 750 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 1: this woman who I saw working overtime, triple time all 751 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,399 Speaker 1: the time, and still at the end of the year 752 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: we were barely, you know, scraping by. I moved four 753 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 1: or five different times as a kid. I got my 754 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 1: first gig at the age of twelve, washing dishes at 755 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 1: a vegan soul food restaurant. If you believe it's like 756 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,800 Speaker 1: a contradiction, that's right. So you can tell President Clinton 757 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: we have some vegan soulfa. He's coming. He's on the 758 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: train right now. And you know the story, really you 759 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: can draw a direct line from this story that I'll 760 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: tell briefly to me running now for the United States Senate. 761 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: I was eleven years old and we're living on this 762 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,359 Speaker 1: block in my district called Woodstock Street. And so I 763 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: came home day and I'm just like, you know, I'm 764 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: in all rage, complaining about the stuff on the block, 765 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: and I'm like mom and this and that blah blah blah, 766 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: and my mom, you know, without skipping a beat, she said, well, 767 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:11,919 Speaker 1: you know, boy, if you care so much, why don't 768 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: you go do something about And I said, oh, okay, 769 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: And so I ran for Junior Black Captain. And it 770 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: was the first thing I ever did to get typically 771 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,240 Speaker 1: engaged at the age of eleven. I want everybody listening 772 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: to tell some young person that story, because you know, 773 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: it does take that initiative. And your mom gave you 774 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,839 Speaker 1: the push. But you went out the door and got 775 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 1: to work. And I know it hasn't always been easy. 776 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,479 Speaker 1: You responded so gracefully to the homophobia displayed by your 777 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: opponent's supporters when you ran. Describe what happened and how 778 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 1: you figured out how to deal with what we're very 779 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: personal attacks. Yeah, you know, uh, I laugh a lot um, 780 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,280 Speaker 1: you know something about having a good laugh. It really 781 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 1: keeps me ground it because it gave me a sense 782 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: that if they're spending time, you know, putting out these 783 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:10,280 Speaker 1: homophobic little flyers and riding around. One of my opponents 784 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,319 Speaker 1: brothers literally got a car with a megaphone and was 785 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: standing outside the poles reminding people that I was. I 786 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 1: was like I told everybody from the beginning, but okay, 787 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 1: I was like, that is true, that is that good. 788 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: That's true. You know. It gave me a sense that 789 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: one they didn't have ideas for a district like mine, 790 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: where I represent the third poorest district in the Commonwealth 791 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. People desperately need government to do something, and 792 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: I don't think folks have to look like me or 793 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: love like me to know that I will fight for them. 794 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 1: And that is what people want from their elected officials, 795 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 1: folks who go in, who work with folks where they 796 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,320 Speaker 1: can um. I'm also not a safe harbor for nonsense, 797 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: and so I call out my Republican colleagues when they're 798 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: talking nonsense. But I'm also committed to getting things done 799 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: because when you grow up like I did, where you're 800 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: doing that cha cha dance of poverty and maybe you'll 801 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: pay the lights this month, you'll pay the electric next month. 802 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,920 Speaker 1: When I was running for State rep. My heat was 803 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: turned off. I have these little space heaters that were 804 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:20,440 Speaker 1: eating my home. Praying that no wire went off caused 805 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: the big caused the big fuss. But I think ultimately 806 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: we need people who understand what it feels like when 807 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: government doesn't work to be there when big decisions are 808 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: being made well, and I love the fact that you 809 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 1: got through it, you won, and you won by a 810 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:41,000 Speaker 1: resounding majority. This wasn't a squeaker, this was a landslide. 811 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,839 Speaker 1: So how does it feel to be changing really the 812 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: paradigm of what an elected official looks like? And have 813 00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,040 Speaker 1: you ever had the experience now that you're in the 814 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:59,400 Speaker 1: legislature of realizing at some moment, boy, it's really good 815 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 1: that I'm in this room right now because I'm the 816 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,479 Speaker 1: only one who can speak to what's actually going on here. 817 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: So you know, I'm thinking about when the Republicans who 818 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: have really they don't they don't like elections anymore. I 819 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,760 Speaker 1: seem to be anti anti election. And so I'm sitting 820 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,400 Speaker 1: on the Secretary of the State Government Committee. One of 821 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:25,680 Speaker 1: the most important responsibilities is it oversees elections laws in Pennsylvania. 822 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: And the former chairman who has retired, introduced this uh 823 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,359 Speaker 1: Election Integrity Committee, this resolution which would have empowered um 824 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,400 Speaker 1: and really bastardize our subpoena power to subpoena ballots, to 825 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,080 Speaker 1: impound voting machines, and to physically compel elections officials to 826 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 1: come before these sham gearings as the election was happening, 827 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 1: mind you, And so I certainly called that out. It 828 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,440 Speaker 1: went viral. I talked about it. I talked about how 829 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 1: how wrong that was, how disgraceful it was, and I 830 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,240 Speaker 1: looked around that room. I'm the only person of color 831 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,240 Speaker 1: in that room, including staff, including reporters and doing members, 832 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: the only person in that room. And I stand on 833 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,120 Speaker 1: the shoulders of my grandfather Mohammed Kanyado, is a civil 834 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: rights leader, and so many others who fought and bled 835 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,920 Speaker 1: and died for the right to vote. And so this 836 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,640 Speaker 1: idea that in this moment, I was just going to 837 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 1: be a no vote and just quietly let it happen. 838 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 1: And they had all the votes to pass it, and 839 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,400 Speaker 1: they passed it. But we were able to block it 840 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 1: because I brought those same tools that I learned as 841 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,200 Speaker 1: a junior Black captain as a community organizer, of be 842 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 1: clear with the facts and engage everybody you can. And 843 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,880 Speaker 1: folks in the middle of a pandemic and the cold 844 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,200 Speaker 1: were standing out in front of the leader's offices demanding 845 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,760 Speaker 1: that they that they stopped this, and we were able 846 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,400 Speaker 1: to get them to pull back and to not do it. 847 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,520 Speaker 1: And it's a great relief because we know, seeing their 848 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: behavior after the election, that they would have utilized those 849 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,920 Speaker 1: tools had they been available, And so there are often 850 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,839 Speaker 1: moments like that where I wreck ignized the power of 851 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,279 Speaker 1: being in the room and not just being there to 852 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 1: be ornamental, but of actually speaking up. But when young people, 853 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 1: particularly see somebody who's had the life that I had 854 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: now being a serious candidate for the United States Senate, 855 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,560 Speaker 1: I hope that they look and don't say, oh my god, 856 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: look what Malcolm has done. But my hope is that 857 00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,319 Speaker 1: they look and say, oh my god, look what I 858 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:29,239 Speaker 1: can do. Difficult to be what you can't see. That 859 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,240 Speaker 1: is music to my ears, because you really are part 860 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,799 Speaker 1: of a rising generation of young people who are changing 861 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: the face of politics in our country. And I'm so 862 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 1: proud that Onward Together, the organization I started after the 863 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,239 Speaker 1: election has worked so closely with Run for Something, an 864 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:54,040 Speaker 1: organization started by two members of my campaign family to 865 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,719 Speaker 1: help more young people like yourself run for office. And 866 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:02,960 Speaker 1: making the leap from being oh, a concerned citizen to 867 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,280 Speaker 1: somebody who runs for office is particularly daunting. I probably 868 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,759 Speaker 1: get asked that question more than any other, like, well, 869 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,880 Speaker 1: how do you do it? How do you prepare yourself? 870 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,560 Speaker 1: How do you deal with the criticism and One of 871 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,120 Speaker 1: the reasons I support groups like Run for Something is 872 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:22,760 Speaker 1: because they are trying to help individuals answer those questions 873 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,040 Speaker 1: for themselves so that they can run for something. How 874 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,640 Speaker 1: do you talk to young people and how do you 875 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,640 Speaker 1: encourage them to maybe take the steps to prepare to run. 876 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,120 Speaker 1: So I give you know, simple sort of in some ways, 877 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's kind of intuitive, but really 878 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 1: simple advice that says, first of all, you just have 879 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 1: to run, knowing that there will be these challenges, knowing 880 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,399 Speaker 1: that it will be difficult. You have to accept all 881 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,960 Speaker 1: of that and just do it because you'll be shocked 882 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 1: by the folks who will step up to support you. 883 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,480 Speaker 1: And so that's the first thing I say. The second 884 00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,200 Speaker 1: thing I say is I think a big part of 885 00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,799 Speaker 1: the reason that a lot of folks don't want to run, 886 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,799 Speaker 1: it's because they asked this question, Oh my gosh, am 887 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,359 Speaker 1: I qualified enough to do with? There are these other 888 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,759 Speaker 1: people who have been in office longer or whatever, And 889 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 1: I tell them, listen, I work in this building, like 890 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,560 Speaker 1: not these are not always the brightest, These are not 891 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,839 Speaker 1: always the brightests. Like I promise you you you can, 892 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,880 Speaker 1: you can do it. And then the final thing I 893 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: think that has to happen is we have to when 894 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,920 Speaker 1: we talk about what qualifications look like, start looking to 895 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,879 Speaker 1: a broader set of skills, because so often right now, 896 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: what we say when we say somebody qualified, the question 897 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 1: is how many membership cards do they have to a 898 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,799 Speaker 1: lot of the elite institutions that don't want anything to change, 899 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,760 Speaker 1: But there is a lived experience that is deeply valuable, 900 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 1: not just from an aesthetic symbolic perspective, but the stories 901 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,759 Speaker 1: that I told these things are important to policy. Yeah, 902 00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,240 Speaker 1: we eat allies. It's great when people say, hey, listen, 903 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,520 Speaker 1: I'm not I don't have I didn't have that experience, 904 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,920 Speaker 1: but I care and I'm gonna step up. But we 905 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,960 Speaker 1: then also have to actually listen to the people who've 906 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,040 Speaker 1: been there, who've been there, who've dealt with it, And 907 00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 1: that is something you know. When I was making the 908 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,560 Speaker 1: pretty big decision to run for the United States Senate, 909 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,880 Speaker 1: that was something that was key for me because there 910 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 1: are very few people who know what I know about 911 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 1: what it means when we don't address the systemic and 912 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,279 Speaker 1: persistent issues that keep folks up at night. And we've 913 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,240 Speaker 1: seen the commercials so many times where folks are fumbling 914 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,440 Speaker 1: through the bills and talking about how hard it is, 915 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,080 Speaker 1: and then some person walks in front and says, Oh, 916 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna fix all your problems. How about we actually 917 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:54,600 Speaker 1: listen to the person who's at that table. We'll be 918 00:53:54,719 --> 00:54:07,319 Speaker 1: right back. Well, my impression from knowing you and then 919 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:13,400 Speaker 1: watching your campaigns is that you are so rooted in 920 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,600 Speaker 1: your neighborhood. As I said, you grew up in the 921 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,239 Speaker 1: neighborhood in North Philly that you now represent in the 922 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,000 Speaker 1: State Assembly, and you've been serving that community since you 923 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:28,120 Speaker 1: were eleven years old. So what makes this neighborhood so 924 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,600 Speaker 1: special to you now that you are literally representing all 925 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,759 Speaker 1: of it? You know, every day I walk into the 926 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: House Chamber and you know, no offense to the forty 927 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,960 Speaker 1: nine other state houses a state sentence, But I think 928 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:47,480 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania is by far the most beautiful chamber. It's our 929 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 1: Nate and it's beautiful. A lot of bad decisions made 930 00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 1: there sometimes, but about a beautiful place nevertheless, And I 931 00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:59,200 Speaker 1: walk in and I'm so still struck that I have 932 00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,600 Speaker 1: the great privile legion honor of not just representing some folks, 933 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,680 Speaker 1: but representing people who really raised me and made me 934 00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:10,920 Speaker 1: and who poured into me, and it reminds me of 935 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:15,520 Speaker 1: how resilient my neighbors and my family are. You know, 936 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,400 Speaker 1: when you think about the level of poverty that folks 937 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,280 Speaker 1: are living in the Fair Hill section of my district 938 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:26,640 Speaker 1: average anuine income nine thousand, seven sixty something bucks. You know, 939 00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,719 Speaker 1: when you think about that, if if folks made the decision, 940 00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,240 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just going to keep my head 941 00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,560 Speaker 1: under the blanket and not peek out. You know, I 942 00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,640 Speaker 1: couldn't blame them, Like it's like, thanks are incredibly challenges. 943 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,440 Speaker 1: I couldn't blame them. But that's not what they do. Instead, 944 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,880 Speaker 1: they get up, they go out. There's so many small 945 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:50,320 Speaker 1: little organizations who have zero dollars but are flush full 946 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,120 Speaker 1: of hope and optimism for what the community can and 947 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: should be. And that's what I said in my first campaign, 948 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,920 Speaker 1: that this was about what our neighborhoods, Cannon should be. 949 00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:06,400 Speaker 1: And I see that every single day people who refuse 950 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:11,040 Speaker 1: in the face of would often feel like insurmountable challenges 951 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:15,080 Speaker 1: to accept that as the finals say, and that has 952 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,960 Speaker 1: really molded me that sometimes when I introduced a good 953 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,560 Speaker 1: piece of legislation and we don't have the votes, you know, 954 00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,719 Speaker 1: I say, a no is a yes that just hasn't 955 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 1: gotten there yet. So they really armed me with a 956 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:36,080 Speaker 1: level of persistence that is, as you know, really necessary 957 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,800 Speaker 1: Um in politics. I love that, uh, I know is 958 00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: a yes that just hasn't gotten there yet. And so 959 00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:49,080 Speaker 1: you have made this really momentous political decision to run 960 00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,360 Speaker 1: for the United States Senate. I'd love to hear what 961 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,160 Speaker 1: your process was like leading you to say, Hey, I'm 962 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,880 Speaker 1: going for it. I want to represent the entire stay 963 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,719 Speaker 1: the way that I represent my district. Yeah, for me, 964 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't a single decision. I think it was a 965 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:11,080 Speaker 1: series of decisions. I had spent the entire cycle last 966 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,239 Speaker 1: cycle as like the most requested sarag it all around 967 00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,720 Speaker 1: the Commonwealth, helping my state House and Senate colleagues, some 968 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:19,600 Speaker 1: who are running for re elections, some who are running 969 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,840 Speaker 1: for election for the first time, and go into all 970 00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,040 Speaker 1: these communities that maybe you know I passed through or 971 00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,040 Speaker 1: stop by, but now but you know, it's different when 972 00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,240 Speaker 1: you're going to campaign and talk to people about what 973 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:32,919 Speaker 1: they want to see in their neighborhoods and what's really 974 00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,800 Speaker 1: at stake for them in this selection. And so I 975 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,000 Speaker 1: think going around and having those conversations with people, first 976 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,160 Speaker 1: of all, really made me get a sense of Wow, 977 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:46,800 Speaker 1: there's something out here and something that I have to say, 978 00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: and things that are really connecting and resonating. From my 979 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:58,040 Speaker 1: experience with folks in Scranton, or in Cranberry Township, or 980 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,480 Speaker 1: in Beaver or up in Murder Sir and Erie, all 981 00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,800 Speaker 1: these places, I got to talk to people who were 982 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,880 Speaker 1: all just asking a simple question, when does government gonna 983 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:09,520 Speaker 1: work for working people? You know what I mean, not 984 00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,400 Speaker 1: as a talking point, but actually gonna center the needs 985 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:17,960 Speaker 1: and concerns of of working people. And when it became 986 00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,480 Speaker 1: clear that, you know, to me wasn't gonna run. I 987 00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,280 Speaker 1: knew it would be a big field. But I also 988 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:29,360 Speaker 1: felt like if folks like me who have seen the 989 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:34,840 Speaker 1: promise of America so often not include me, and not 990 00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,520 Speaker 1: include folks who are in my economic rung of the ladder, 991 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,880 Speaker 1: and not include folks who are from neighborhoods like mine, 992 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,240 Speaker 1: if we continue to wait on somebody else to come 993 00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,360 Speaker 1: fix this for us, we're gonna be waiting a long time. 994 00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,360 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody's coming to save us. But I 995 00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,680 Speaker 1: think the good news is we don't need anybody to 996 00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,800 Speaker 1: save us. When we build big coalitions, coalitions that are 997 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,440 Speaker 1: big enough and bolden of to meet the moment. I 998 00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:06,320 Speaker 1: think we can do what generations before us have done 999 00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,680 Speaker 1: to take that promise of America, these ideas of freedom 1000 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,680 Speaker 1: and justice and fairness, which the founders, as prescian as 1001 00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:15,800 Speaker 1: they were, they weren't talking about you and I. Okay, 1002 00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,560 Speaker 1: they didn't mean us at that moment. But every generation 1003 00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,200 Speaker 1: has said, oh wait, wait, wait, this promise is big 1004 00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:25,400 Speaker 1: enough for me, and we have to expand it, and 1005 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,840 Speaker 1: we have to make sure that these things aren't just 1006 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:33,520 Speaker 1: words on a page, that they're real. And I fundamentally 1007 00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,400 Speaker 1: believe if we're gonna get from where we are to 1008 00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,800 Speaker 1: where we need to go, it's gonna be people who 1009 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,480 Speaker 1: have experienced the brokenness of our system that are going 1010 00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,800 Speaker 1: to be able to best rebuild it. And we are 1011 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,680 Speaker 1: at an inflection point. And I felt like the experience 1012 00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,560 Speaker 1: I had as a legislator, as a community organizer, and 1013 00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:55,800 Speaker 1: as somebody who does not take no for an answer, 1014 00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:57,480 Speaker 1: I felt like those would all be good skill sets 1015 00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,600 Speaker 1: in the United States. All we we need leaders who 1016 01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:06,080 Speaker 1: are going to do exactly that. Malcolm Kenyada, it is 1017 01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:09,800 Speaker 1: always a joy to be with you even virtually in 1018 01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:13,360 Speaker 1: this setting, and I just really wish you the very best. 1019 01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:22,360 Speaker 1: Thank you, my friend. Take care of yourself. You can 1020 01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:27,920 Speaker 1: follow Malcolm on social media at Malcolm Kenyata. That's k 1021 01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:35,480 Speaker 1: E n y A T t A. Speaking of paradigm shifts, 1022 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,240 Speaker 1: We're going to be doing something special on our next show. 1023 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:42,680 Speaker 1: We've been collecting questions from you, our listeners for me, 1024 01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,680 Speaker 1: and next week I will be answering them, and as 1025 01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,440 Speaker 1: master of ceremonies, we're going to have a very special guest, 1026 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,440 Speaker 1: my friend James Cordon, the host of The Late Late Show. 1027 01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,920 Speaker 1: And I can tell you right now that although we 1028 01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:02,000 Speaker 1: won't be doing any karaoke since I literally can't carry 1029 01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:05,360 Speaker 1: a tune, I know we're going to have lots of fun. 1030 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:10,760 Speaker 1: So don't miss it. You and Me Both is brought 1031 01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:15,640 Speaker 1: to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, 1032 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:21,080 Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help from Kuma Aberdeen, 1033 01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:28,680 Speaker 1: Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, 1034 01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:35,240 Speaker 1: Rob Russo and Lona Valmorro. Our engineer is Zack McNeice 1035 01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,640 Speaker 1: and the original music is by Forest Gray. If you 1036 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,480 Speaker 1: like you and me both, please help spread the word, 1037 01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,520 Speaker 1: tell your friends about it, post about it on social media, 1038 01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:49,920 Speaker 1: and make sure to hit the subscribe buttons so you 1039 01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,360 Speaker 1: never miss an episode. You can do that on the 1040 01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:58,160 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 1041 01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:02,439 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Thanks for listening and see you next week. 1042 01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:15,080 Speaker 1: M