WEBVTT - Solarpunk Gaming 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:07.120 Welcome to it could happen here a podcast that is 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.480 remarkably today not really so much about things falling apart 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.120 and is mostly about things in fact getting better and 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.320 how we can do that. Um. I'm your host, Christopher. 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.639 With me today is Garrison and we're also joined by 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:24.840 Nick and Max, who are two members of the artist 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:28.000 collective solar Punk Surf Club, who have released a very 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:30.720 very interesting you game that we are here in part 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:33.720 of talk about called solar Punk Features. Hello, Dick, I Max, 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.880 How how are you doing? Hey? Doing well? Thanks? Yeah, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.239 doing great. Thanks for having us one excited to have 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:42.599 you to on. So I guess my first question is 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.360 how did you too get into game design and sort 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:51.479 of first have the idea to do a sort of 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.640 like political gaming project like this. That's a good question. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.480 So we're not, um, we're definitely not game designers by 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.320 Ushian or trade. UM. We're members of the artist collective 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:11.920 Solar Punk Surf Club, and we're particularly interested in creating 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:18.760 artwork and social practice that pre figures these kinds of 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.560 egalitarian futures that we'd like to see in the world. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:26.600 And so this game was something that we've been kind 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:28.880 of a project that we've been thinking about and sitting 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:34.319 on for a little while, and was kind of something 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.520 that made us excited, got us excited, and we think 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:39.399 there's a whole bunch of other reasons that we think 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.160 it's a really cool um project to work on an 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:47.520 important project, and um, yeah, so we kind of took 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:50.200 a took a deep dive headfirst into the world of 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.360 game design and learning how to how to do that 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:58.400 over the past year or so. Okay, so how about we, 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:02.080 I guess also start with I guess explaining what solar 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.880 Punk features is and sort of how it works, and 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.520 then we can get into the sort of political aspect 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.640 of this sort of game design project. So, solar Punk 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:18.040 Futures is a storytelling game where players imagine pathways to 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:25.160 a desirable future by collaboratively overcoming real world challenges. The 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.400 object of the game is to collectively remember one of 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:34.920 the stories that grew into our utopia. Um. The idea 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:41.840 is that through back casting, where you assume within the 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.040 context of the game that players are already in utopia 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:51.200 and merely remembering back to their ancestors struggle, that players 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:56.760 can transcend the idea that what currently exists must necessarily 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:02.800 exist which social theorists Murray book Chain described as the 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:07.520 acid that corrodes all visionary thinking. So we wanted to 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:15.400 make a system to facilitate collaborative performance sort of we 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.920 call it a collaborative performance of memory, but one that 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:26.520 combines sincerity with laughter and speculative storytelling. The game also 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.680 combines a lot of different elements that we saw in 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:36.840 other games, um, collaborative you know, collaborative storytelling, cooperative gameplay, uh, 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:41.200 some elements of role playing, and different kind of mechanics 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.800 that we thought would build out that kind of like 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.320 I said earlier, those prefigurations of those egalitarian world So 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.720 we're trying to you know, we're trying to make a 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.520 game that had the fiction and the idea of utopia 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.760 built in uh in terms of the goals of the game, 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.520 but it was also we wanted to build it into 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:03.720 some of the mechanics of how the game is actually 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:08.360 played too. Um. But my question from here is sort of, well, 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:10.560 I mean, I guess firstly is I think what sort 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:12.920 of specifically drew d solar Punk is sort of an 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:15.920 aesthetic for for this, Like I know, there's been a 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.600 lot of sort of like the kind of sociocology solar 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.400 punk fusions, but I'm interested in what you you specifically 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:28.760 to it. So we see solar punk as a visionary 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:35.360 utopian politics and aesthetic that critically engages the reality of 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:41.679 capitalist catastrophe while maintaining a radical optimism about humanity's hopes 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:48.000 for a communal, ecological future. Nick was just speaking to this. UM. 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.960 We see it as a restorative justice process on a 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:57.000 planetary scale among people, between humans and non human nature. 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:02.760 So that means reclaiming pieces of the past, pre pre 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:09.400 capitalist culture. UM, that means material accountability for old practices, 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:14.839 and it also means radical adaptability towards new ones. I 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:21.960 think it provided a useful way of synthesizing several currents 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.440 that we had already been thinking about and involved in 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:33.560 between new media and social practice, thinking not just about 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:38.160 images and objects in space, but also the set of 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:42.440 social relations that those things produced. Yeah, we're also we're 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:46.120 like partisans within solar punk. I don't think there's I 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.799 don't think there's too many pro capitalists within solar punk, 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.080 but I think there are some people who are maybe 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.920 drawn to the aesthetic but don't necessarily have a politics. 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:57.320 But we do think that there's a kind of a 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:03.400 latent horizontalism, a latent anarchistic politics in a lot of 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:08.760 the aesthetics around solar punk and so uh as a 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.520 as a collaborative as an aesthetic that is being defined 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.760 collaboratively by people online and elsewhere. You know, we wanted 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.640 to kind of stick out of position about what we 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:28.600 thought a really realistic utopian world might look and feel. Like, Yeah, 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.320 and I think this is something else I know YouTube, 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:36.679 I'm very passionate about. Um is about specifically using games 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:38.719 as a medium to do this and sort of this 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:44.200 as like this kind of storytelling membrance as a specifically 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.880 political intervention. So could you talk a bit more about 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.200 you know, like a yeah, you know, good questions like okay, 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.720 so why this and not on you know, on this 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.320 sort of less more like like why this and not 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:56.880 a grilla garden? You go, why this and not some 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.880 other kind of organizing etcetera, etcetera. Um, yamage it here 0:06:59.880 --> 0:07:03.599 you say about that. Yeah, well, I'm not gonna hate 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.960 on guerrilla gardening. I definitely think it's a both situation. Um, 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.920 it's also in the game. Yeah, that's true. It's it's 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.080 one of the cards, one of the tools that you 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:18.400 get to use as an ancestor. Um. Yeah, I think, 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.000 you know, there's a lot of different things that we 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.200 were thinking about when we were thinking about why a 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.320 game that I got a little bit into earlier. But 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.480 you know, for one, UM, I think it helps reach 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:37.880 abroad and often deep politicized audience with a fun way 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.560 to kind of engage in some thorny political questions. I 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:46.800 think that games as a participatory medium were especially interesting 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:53.440 for people who are interested in sort of anarchistic modes 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:59.800 of teaching and education, education through doing rather than lecture. Uh. 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.840 Although you know, we were also read a lot of 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:07.680 good political theories, so I'm not I'm not opposed to that. Um. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:14.520 And then I think, uh, you know, games are also fun, 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:20.040 and there's a lot of there's a lot of political 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:25.840 organizing and activism work that happens out there that feels 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:30.920 that's hard and that is necessary to do. But just 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.520 because a lot of the important work to be done 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:38.560 is hard doesn't mean everything that's hard is important and 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:44.400 everything that's fun is you know, trifling or not going 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:48.840 to help us get where we're going and and overthrow 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:54.079 capitalism and build a new world. So um, yeah, those 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.560 are those are some of the reasons. And yeah, and 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.320 I think that's especially sert of interesting point because I 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:03.840 think a lot of what happens in left to spaces 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:07.240 you get a bunch of people doing stuff and they 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.880 burn out really fast because you know, you're doing an 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.160 enormous amount of work. It's all miserable. A lot of 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:17.280 the times you're getting physically assaulted. And like, I think 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:19.400 that's one of the things that's interesting to me about 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:27.040 this is you need other forms of sort of community 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.400 building and sort of like you need other forms of 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.840 organizing that do not involve you being repeatedly traumatized over 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:40.439 and over again. And that, yeah, especially just working on 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:42.440 something like this, and then I don't know, just playing 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.000 with your friends and having having things that are like 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.560 collaborative and joyful and community buildings I think very important 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.440 as a way to just you know, even just this 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.800 is not a very basically logistical level, but prevent people 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:59.040 from burning out. Yeah, And and I definitely think that 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.600 there's a role there to prevent people from burning out 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.680 and and inspiring people with some of the fun ideas, 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:07.400 the ideas that they come up with when they're not 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.720 looking at a Google doc meeting notes, but instead they're 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.040 playing a card game and maybe drinking a couple of beers, 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.640 and they're like, oh, how would I combine guerrilla gardening 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:24.080 and um, you know performance art too, bring about you know, 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.839 to solve a specific challenge of capitalism like deforestation or 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.520 these are some of the cards in the game. Um. 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.080 And so I think it can be inspiring, you know, 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:39.360 it's also um, it can be educational. I played with 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.320 some family. Uh. I think the first time I played, 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.120 when we got the physical copy that wasn't a play test, 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:50.760 was with some family and they don't necessarily identify as 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:55.959 leftists of any kind, but we had a really fun 0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:04.680 game where we explored ideas of deconstructing borders, and uh, 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:08.319 you know they were It wasn't like I was guiding 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:09.839 them in this direction. It was just kind of the 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.559 assumption of the game that there was utopia, got beyond 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:18.160 this ingrained capitalist realism, that there just isn't that there 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:20.800 isn't an alternative. And they're like, okay, well the game 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.680 says we're already in utopia, so that means there's no 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.440 private property. And I was like, whoa, that's a that's 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.160 a jump. I didn't expect from my from my family. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:44.599 One thing I'm interested in in terms of how it 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:49.880 functions as a game is like balancing the actual more 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.640 I don't know, fund based like role playing game elements 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:59.560 with like it's kind of structure as a thought exercise, 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.360 and like a world building game like how how how 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:04.240 do you approach trying to get a balance of like 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.440 fun role playing as well as this type of like 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:12.240 reverse world building. I was kind of I was still 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.760 a little bit on the y A game in the 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:19.439 first place question, but I'm also intrigued by the balancing 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:25.680 fun and politics question. If you don't mind, I wanted 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.320 to go back to the y A game for just 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.760 a second, um, because I think maybe it will lead 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:38.080 into this. Games are, you know, an ancient form of art. 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.360 I know, I said we work in new media before, 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.719 but games are actually an ancient form of art, and 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:50.120 I would argue social practice. Um. There's a game called Senate. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.880 There's a game called the Royal Game of Er, which 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:58.199 both date to five thousand years ago in ancient Egypt 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:03.920 and ancient messo but Amia, respectively. We did in making 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:05.640 the game, we did a bunch of research on the 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:10.840 history of of games. There's a fifteenth century game called 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.240 the Game of the Goose from uh well, present day 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:19.440 Italy that paired like these gorgeous illustrations, also with like 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:25.120 didactic moral instruction. In the early early twentieth century, the 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:30.480 Surrealists created a series of games um with the intention 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:37.640 of breaking through traditional thought patterns and unleashing the potentials 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.440 of the unconscious. They also wanted to subvert academic modes 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.680 of inquiry um. And then today, you know, some of 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:49.600 our most popular table top games. You know, I think 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.160 Nick was mentioning this earlier, how they can sometimes inscribe 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.960 oppressive logics. So, you know, rather than a game where 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:03.000 you're competing in against other players to drive them into poverty, 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:08.680 or a game where you're trying to colonize other players land, 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.560 you know, for the purpose of world domination, we wanted 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:20.640 to make a game that actually practices the cooperation, interdependence, care, consent, uh, 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:22.480 these things that will be needed, you know, for it 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:27.560 actually to transcend the social ecological crises of our day. 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:29.720 And kind of to that point, you know, I would 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:35.040 say that games always reflect the beliefs and norms of 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:39.440 their historical context. So with solar Punk, futures. We wanted 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:44.160 to kind of flip the script and UM project using 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:48.200 you know, the modalities of like speculative fiction, collaborative performance. 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:53.600 As I mentioned, the values and more is of a 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:58.880 of a desirable future. So games are are very human thing, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.400 an ancient human thing. And why do people play games? Uh? 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.400 As I mentioned, you know, education is part of it, UM, 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.880 but also building social bonds is another important piece, and 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.280 that always is a company. It's a very like academic 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.400 way of talking about it, maybe, but it is. It 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:19.320 is fun. It has to be fun. That's why people 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.800 do it. In terms of the To get a little 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.840 deeper into the balancing question, you know, every game is 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.880 a balance between a bunch of different competing factors. There's 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.240 a lot of people who were talking about the balance 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:36.760 between randomness and planning in in games and the balance 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:41.880 um between structure and free form. And it's definitely something 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.200 if there's any game designers out there thinking about making, 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.280 you know, games like this, play testing it will help 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:52.760 you so much because you know, the game in a 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.560 rough form existed in the spring of last year, but 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:02.479 playtesting really helped us refine a lot of those questions 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:07.840 and find that kind of balance between structure and freeformness. 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.600 We wanted it to be accessible to people who aren't 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.640 d n D players, but we've also played with people 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:16.760 who play a lot of d n D and GM 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.080 and all this stuff, and they took it in a 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.520 lot of fun and wild directions that we didn't expect. 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.680 That helped inform kind of new ways that we could. 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.480 You know, we added some optional rules in there for 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.440 people who want to take it in a different direction 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.880 or or add more complexity, or or even or for 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.480 other people who need a little bit like a handhold 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.600 and want to flip a coin to decide something rather 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:44.320 than um, you know, come up with it totally on 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:48.800 their own. So I think, um, yeah, it's a hard 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.120 it's a hard thing to balance, you know, all the 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.040 different factors that go into a game. But I definitely 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.680 think play testing and all the people who who played 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.000 with us in those early games really helped helped us 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.359 figure out the right balance. And to your earlier point 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:10.920 about burnout, like activists burnout, Um, some people who we've 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:16.080 invited to play the game maybe have have expressed this 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:20.280 idea of like, well, um, I'd love to, but I 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:27.040 don't have time, And maybe maybe they they think of 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:29.960 of gaming. And I know I've certainly been guilty of 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.400 this too, of feeling like guilt over things that feel 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.280 like it indulges like you should be doing the real 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:41.000 work all the time. But you know, I think it's 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.200 important to hold that in the perspective of the tradition 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:51.600 of of feminism, civil rights advocates, others on the left 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:56.679 that have talked about the importance of um joy that 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.440 needs to be integral to our struggles. There's the famous 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.040 Goldman quip, if I can't dance, it's not my revolution. 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.760 So perhaps you know, these ideas of like guilt and 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:11.480 shame or martyrdom or whatever are kind of toxic parts 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:13.959 of the old world that we need to to let 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:17.399 go of. UM. So I guess this is kind of 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:21.240 coming back to say that there's, as as Nick was saying, 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:25.919 there is an ethical, pre figurative case of um of 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:31.680 how games can allow people to um express themselves through play, 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:36.560 but there's also a tactical one, and that games can 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.280 be a structured way of thinking about how do we 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.320 create a liberated society? On everything I think is sort 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:47.480 of interesting about Well, like, I guess this is somewhat 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:52.240 less true of tabletop games as in medium because typical 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:57.760 games are a lot of sort of cloud storytelling ish stuff. 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.080 But like I know, like like so like I'm I 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:01.440 I put a lot of video games right, and it's 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:07.200 like it's like a lot of the structure of what 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:15.320 gaming is is sort of like it basically just turned 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.480 into like another job that you have, and it's interesting. Yeah, 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:21.720 it's like I mean, you know, and you get you 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.160 like you get, you get the same you even get 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.600 like bog like crossover between the terminology of like like 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.720 you know, like I think like grinding is like a grind. Yeah, 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.320 like grind. I think I think that came from getting 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.119 first and then moved over into the weird grindset stuff. 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.240 But like I think you're right, yeah yeah. And gamification, right, 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:46.320 that's another way that like gaming is being almost like 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.440 weaponized by capitalism to get squeezed just a little bit 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.320 more out of everyone. Yeah, there's there's a really interesting 0:19:53.440 --> 0:20:01.160 article whose name I am forgetting because I am yeah, 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.720 I um, but Vicky Astawall wrote it like a while 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:11.359 ago that was about how like games are like it's 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:14.240 you know, it's it's used sort of mechanically doing the 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.040 same thing over and over and over again. But it's 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.800 it's a problem because it's like it's it's labor that's 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:20.960 like too perfect. I guess it doesn't create anything. There's 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.880 no sort of like I like, there's there's no sort 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:29.960 of like um like aspect that produces like value that 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:31.479 could be extracted. You're just sort of you're just doing 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.360 the thing over and over again. And it's like and 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:36.080 you know, and that then then that, you know, becomes 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:37.760 a problem for capital in some sense, is why there's 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:39.680 all these panics about like everyone being addicted to gaming, 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.479 because it's like, well, okay, you're not making money for us, 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.640 And but I think it's interesting truck simulator you could 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.520 be driving some actual Yeah. Yeah, but you know, I 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:55.800 think it's interesting that this is a political intervention into 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.960 that of creating something that's you know, precisely the opposite 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.600 of that that it's you. You're not sort of like 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.600 it's not just like an incredible intensification of the sort 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.480 of like reward systems of working. It's hey, we're gonna 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:10.679 come together and we're gonna tell we're gonna you know, 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:13.760 make collaborative decisions and overcome challenges. And I think I 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:16.119 think that's a very interesting sort of political angle to 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:20.920 come at this from. Yeah, I think a lot of 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:26.800 a lot of tabletop games in particular, compared to video games. 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.760 I think, well, I'll say, role playing games in particular 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:33.359 put you in a driver's seat in a way that 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:37.880 I think can is is hard, right, Like sometimes I'm 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:40.320 too tired to or if I think, you know, I 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:42.240 have a I have a D and D night, and 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:44.040 I'm like, I don't know if I have the energy 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:48.360 for this after working all day, um, whereas I might 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.040 have energy to play you know, a video game RPG 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:54.480 that kind of walks me, you know, handholds me through 0:21:54.480 --> 0:22:00.399 a story. Um, it's kind of more like watching more passive. Um. 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.840 But I do think that there's I just think there's 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:14.280 something so important about thinking through what it might be 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:19.040 like to live in this utopian society. And it's important, 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:23.199 I think because if we don't, well, for one, a 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.560 ton of people just don't even think about it. Um. 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:28.760 And so to the extent that this game is something 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.800 that gets bought or played with families of people who 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:34.399 are you know, one of the many people who have 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.240 been deep politicized in this country. Um, I think that 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:43.200 can be really helpful. But I also think that, um, 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.560 I've played it, and I've found really fun and exciting 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:49.679 ideas that I wouldn't have thought about if I was 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:53.399 staring at a power map or something and thinking where 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.240 can we intervene in my city too, you know, help 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:01.440 help solve this or that problem. So I think, yeah, 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:13.240 I think there's power there. So I think one of 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:15.439 the other things I think is interesting to me about 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:18.639 how you cute sort of the team put this product together. 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:20.200 And it's also like you know, so like you can 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.520 buy the versions of it that have like very very 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:25.280 nice art, but you also just put the cards and 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:26.640 the rules up for free and you can just sort 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:28.240 of print and play it. So I ownered, Yeah, if 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:29.919 you could talk a bit about decision you do that 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:34.840 democratic accessibility is really important to us. It's part of 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:39.280 the concept that we wanted to integrate into every aspect 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:43.600 of the game's production and distribution. And so yeah, the 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:47.720 whole thing is available as a free print and play 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:54.040 PDF download. Um it's all Creative Commons licensed. UM. So 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:56.959 that's yeah. And you know, at the same time, as 0:23:57.000 --> 0:24:03.320 you mentioned, we we uh are interested in materiality and 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:09.840 want wanted to create, um, something that could could accompany 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.880 you know, a face to face interaction as well, which 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:15.679 is you know, frankly, well, I'll just speaking for myself, 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.280 that's probably more my interest. Um, even though I think 0:24:19.359 --> 0:24:22.560 you know like that. We have a tabletop simulator version too, 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:25.399 which I think is really cool. But as far as 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:30.760 the decision to make the game, you know, free, free forever. Um, 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:32.639 we want people to play, We want it to be 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:37.520 genuinely useful. Um. This is not a this is not 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:41.960 a capitalistic business venture. We're running a break even budget 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:45.639 and want to just keep doing projects and you know, 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:50.199 elaborating like the solar punk tradition and connecting it to social, ecological, 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:54.960 communalist politics. So if this can be a catalyst towards 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:59.760 being able to do more of that, then um, then 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:02.920 it's you know, we'll have we'll have succeeded on our 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:05.919 on our terms at least. What's this at us of 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:09.199 physical copies of how can people if they want to 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:14.080 use cards and stuff? What is how how would one 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:16.639 go about getting those? Yeah, so there's a couple of 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:20.680 different ways. People can download the free print and play 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:23.320 if they like, If they really love it, they want 0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:26.920 to buy the physical copy. We sold out of the 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:30.240 kind of first edition that we were able to afford 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:34.080 to print, but we're raising money on Kickstarter for a 0:25:34.119 --> 0:25:37.879 second edition. So if people back us at a certain 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:41.600 tier there, I think it's forty five dollars or higher. Uh, 0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:44.120 you get a copy of the game when we're able 0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:47.879 to print them. Uh And so yeah, so it's a 0:25:48.760 --> 0:25:51.520 um and of course, as Max mentioned, you can also 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:56.280 play on tabletop simulator. But yeah, we're we're really excited 0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:59.679 about it. I think we're also hoping to take it 0:25:59.720 --> 0:26:04.840 around on to some you know, political workshops, probably on 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:10.520 Zoom for the foreseeable future, get maybe game convention, tabletop 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:14.679 game conventions and stuff, and also some art art shows 0:26:15.040 --> 0:26:18.879 um to be announced, to be announced, but there's a 0:26:18.880 --> 0:26:21.760 couple of art shows that we're excited to be showing 0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:26.000 it in. So um yeah, yeah. One one thing I'm 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:28.919 really excited about in terms of playing this at some 0:26:29.000 --> 0:26:33.840 point is the I think starting from the point of 0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:39.520 like you're trying to build the world now, you can 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:43.719 really easy, it's really easy to run into ruts. Um 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:47.040 starting at the end point than working backwards, I think 0:26:47.600 --> 0:26:51.840 because that produces that reverse type of thought. I think 0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:54.320 it's a little bit easier for to find the path 0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:57.560 than just starting here and looking at the world will 0:26:57.560 --> 0:27:00.240