1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio. Mike Nichols was one of the 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: most celebrated directors of the last century, and he is 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: the subject of a compelling new biography written by My 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: guest Today, Mark Harris, drawn from more than two hundred 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: and fifty interviews. Mike Nichols. A Life traces nichols lonely 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: and difficult childhood onto the highs and lows of his 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: astonishingly productive fifty year career. Nichols was the rare director 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: who moved fluidly between Broadway and Hollywood. His films include 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: The Graduate, Who's Afraid of Virginia, Wolf, Silkwood, and Working Girl, 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: Where I had My chance to experience firsthand his ability 12 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: to connect with actors on the stage. Nichols was prolific 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: in shepherding the casts of everything from Neil Simon's Barefoot 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: in the Park and Tom Stoppard's The Real Thing to 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: Monty Python's Smam a Lot. And before all of that, 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: Mike Nichols was a performer, one half of the influential 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: sketch comedy team Nichols in May, which he developed with 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: the incomparable Elaine May. One thing Mark Harris knew when 19 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: he started working on this book was there would be 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: plenty of material. I don't know how you wake up 21 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: every day and go to bed every night with the 22 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: same person in your head while you're working on something. 23 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 1: And I just thought that with Nichols, whatever I found 24 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: out good or bad, there probably would not be boring parts. 25 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: I mean, he had such a long, interesting career and 26 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: it was always on two tracks, movie directing and theater directing, 27 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: and before that there was all of his work with 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: Elaine May. So I thought, I'm not going to hit 29 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: a whole decade where nothing interesting happens or I can't 30 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: find out anything good. And I just felt like I 31 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: would never be bored. And and I also I felt 32 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: truly that there was that what I didn't know was 33 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: a much much longer list than what I thought. I 34 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: knew now. Diane and his children were not interviewed for 35 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: the book. No, they weren't. I went to them before 36 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: I really sat down with Penguin to try to make 37 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: a deal, because I had no interest in doing the 38 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: book if they were opposed to it. But they gave 39 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: their consent. They never asked to see anything advanced. They 40 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: never asked for me to leave anything out, So I 41 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: felt like what I really needed from them was they're okay, 42 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: and they're okay to make their okay public. When they 43 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: don't agree to sit down, why don't they do it? 44 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: I felt like, in different ways, it was a very 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: big ask. Mike's three kids are pretty private people, and 46 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: Mike made no secret of the fact that when they 47 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: were growing up he wasn't always as present a father 48 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: as he felt he should have been. And I really 49 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: understand the idea of not wanting to play out a 50 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: whole parent child drama in the pages of a book. 51 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: Diane was in a uniquely complicated position because if she 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: had sat down and done an interview with me, I 53 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: think everyone would have taken that as tacit approval of 54 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: everything that was in the book, which she could not give, 55 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: of course, because she didn't know what was in the book. 56 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: So they put a lot of trust in me letting 57 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: me do this. Everybody that worked with Mike, he's such 58 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 1: a fizzy character. I would imagine your work was made 59 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: easier by how much people remember their time with Mike completely. 60 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: That was a really particular thing, Even if he said 61 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: something to them forty years ago. They held onto it. 62 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: Whether it was a great funny piece of advice or 63 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: a brutal insult, it stayed inside them when it went in. 64 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I didn't know Mike well. I worked with 65 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: them that one time in the eighties, and but I 66 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: would always see him. He was very kind and he 67 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: loved actors. And it was at a time in my 68 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: life when I was being tortured by a girlfriend I 69 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: had like she was so resentful of my starting to 70 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: work and being more successful. This is the beginning of 71 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: me making films. This is the beginning of me throwing 72 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: my clothes in a suitcase and leaving the moment after 73 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: I hung up the phone, Hollywood was calling me to 74 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: make movies and I was going to go no matter what. 75 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: And you were gonna start missing everything, birthdays, anniversary as 76 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: you didn't care. And I'm sitting lamenting this with Mike 77 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: in his trailer when we were doing Working Girl, and 78 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: he said to me, well, you know the relationship is dead. 79 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: He said. There's two metrics. One is he says, there's 80 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: just not enough other people in the room when you're 81 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: with your girlfriend. They just aren't enough other people in 82 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: the room. The other one is he says, how quickly 83 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: do you get back into your ship after you come 84 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: the thing to say, I mean, he really really like 85 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: beguiled me. He was beguiling. Everything that came out of 86 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: his mouth was smart and funny and rich. Well, I 87 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: think you got him at a really interesting point in 88 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: his life, not just because it was Working Girl, which 89 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: of course is one of the movies that people still 90 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: talk about and watch, but because he was on his 91 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: way to marrying Diane. And I think at that point, 92 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: you know, he had recovered from a big breakdown that 93 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: he had had a couple of years earlier. He got 94 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: addicted to halcyon and all of that, and he recovered, 95 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: and Working Girl came along, and he said, it's too 96 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: elaborate and location driven a production. I'm gonna make Biloxi 97 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: Blues first, which is a movie that I can do 98 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: in my sleep, and then I'll get my muscles back, 99 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: and then I want to do Working Girl. But it 100 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: was a point when he was trying to fix himself 101 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: in some ways. You know, you go into your fourth 102 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: marriage and obviously why the first three didn't work, and 103 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: what your part was in that must be very front 104 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: of mine. So I think you got him an unusually 105 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: kind of vulnerable and tense and excited time in his life. 106 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: There's up moment you have in the book which is 107 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: just so thrilling about Fiffer. When Fifer leaves the room 108 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: and comes back, he says, my god, he's dazzled by 109 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: what Nichols does and he says, it's all in there. 110 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: And that was the thing about Mike. If there's ten 111 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: things you want, the average director has four, maybe five 112 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: of the ten things you want, and Nichols, of course 113 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: had all ten of those things. And because his mind 114 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: was on everything. If he was talking to you about 115 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: the scene. I remember vividly he was talking about the 116 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: scene we were going to do, and I'm sitting on 117 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: a bed and he's sitting on the bed, and as 118 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: he's talking to me, he's looking over my shoulder. He says, 119 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: what is this painting doing on the wall. He says, 120 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: take this down, He says, I hate this painting. And 121 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: they're like the set design is in his mind. It's 122 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: all of one. I was really surprised when I was 123 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: doing the research and interviews how many stories I heard 124 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: in different contexts about Mike freaking out about some physical 125 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: location or surroundings based thing. This really bothered him. There 126 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: was one point when he had an entire Broadway set 127 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: re built because a hallway that was on the stage 128 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: in the center he decided was eight inches too narrow 129 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: and that he needed those extra eight inches. There's another 130 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: point when he's doing Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf on 131 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: stage with Elane May at the Long Wharf and they're 132 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: in the living room set and he realizes that there 133 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: are only three places to sit and there are four characters, 134 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: and it he just completely blows a gasket. He completely 135 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: freaks out. He can't let it go for days and days, 136 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: and it was a really interesting kind of glimpse for 137 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: me in what he needed in order to work now. 138 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: You wrote a book about a battery of directors who 139 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: were very influential in the seventies, as well as your 140 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: other book about a battery of directors during the wartime. 141 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: Nichols is someone who you really when you say his name, 142 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: your heart pressed to think of anybody who was as 143 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: adept at directing actors. There are directors who cast well, 144 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: and they cast the prison and there's everything that just 145 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: wind upup and let him go. You've come to do 146 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: this thing I know you can do when I just 147 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: let you go, do that and it puts a costume 148 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: on you and we go. Whereas Mike really this idea, 149 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: the vanity of certain directors who believe they quote unquote 150 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: get a performance out of you is completely nonsense. But 151 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: with Mike, it really was true. Mike got a performance 152 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: out of you. Do you think that made him completely 153 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: unique in the business. I do think it made him 154 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: pretty unique. And I also think it's the reason that 155 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people have kind of had trouble pinning 156 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: down what makes him special as a director. Because Mike 157 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: didn't write his own movies. I mean that already sets 158 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: him apart from a lot of the directors. Like when 159 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: we talk about a Cohen Brothers movie or Paul Thomas 160 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: Anderson movie or a Tarantino movie. We know where he's 161 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: coming from as a writer as much as we do 162 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: as a director. But if Mike's really special gift was 163 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: connecting with each actor in a way that was going 164 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: to bring the best performance out of them. If that works, 165 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: that is sort of something that it's supposed to end 166 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: up being invisible, Like You're not supposed to watch the 167 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 1: movie and think, oh, that's a impeccably directed performance. You're 168 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: supposed to watch the movie and think that's a great performance. 169 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: And so I think the thing that made him special 170 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: is something that isn't always evident to people who watch 171 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: his movies. But what's interesting is that he did do 172 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: a lot of writing. I mean, he was right in 173 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: there with Piffer and Simon and other writers giving them 174 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: his ideas about cuts. I mean, decorating the house is 175 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: one thing, Building the house is another. And Mike didn't 176 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: build the house. He didn't write the pieces, but he contributed. 177 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: Why do you think he never wrote his own stuff 178 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: for motion pictures. Well, some people say that it was 179 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: because he was uncomfortable from the beginning of his life 180 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: with literal writing, Like he hated his handwriting. He didn't 181 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: like putting things down on paper. And of course there's 182 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: the interesting thing about his work with Elaine May, which 183 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: is that all of the most famous sketches that they 184 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: did together, some of which they did hundreds of times, 185 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: were never actually written down. They were just things that 186 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: were work doubt between the two of them until every 187 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: word was locked. But it was never locked on paper. 188 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: It was just locked in their performance. They were too childish. 189 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: That quote you have where she says they talked about 190 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: they don't want to break up anymore on the show, 191 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: and she says it's so childish, and she says, she 192 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: said it was the most responsible conversation we'd ever had. Yeah, 193 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: I love that story so much that there there are 194 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: these two people in there I guess late twenties by 195 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: that point, saying we have to stop laughing on this 196 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: Broadway stage. People are paying to see this, and they 197 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: couldn't keep it together. They really didn't think of it 198 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: as a grown up job that they had. Author Mark Harris. 199 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: If you love behind the scenes stories of Hollywood legends, 200 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: check out my conversation with Sam Wasson, author of The 201 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: Big Goodbye Chinatown and The Last Years of Hollywood. Wasson 202 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time with producer Robert Evans, who 203 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: was credited with turning Paramount Studio Is around in the 204 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: early nineties seventies. He loved it, he loved it, he 205 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: loved show business, he loved movies, he loved people, he 206 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: loved talent. It's actually that simple. I asked him this question. 207 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: I said, Evans. Is it as simple as you bet 208 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: on talent? Do you have an easy job? And he said, 209 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: you goddamn right, that was and it's true. Here more 210 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: of my conversation with author Sam wasson that Here's the 211 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: Thing dot Org. After the break, Mark Harris talks about 212 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: a fundamental truth of Hollywood. Success has a way of 213 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: limiting your choices. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 214 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Mike Nichols was known for bringing out 215 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: remarkable performances from his actors, but not always. Two stories 216 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: of when Nichols struggled stood out to me and Mark 217 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: Harris's biography, nichols frustration with Gary Shandling as the lead 218 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: in What Planet Are You From? And his decision to 219 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: fire Mandy Patakon just a week into rehearsals for Heartburn, 220 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: a role that went to Jack Nicholson instead. It's so 221 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: interesting to me. I mean, Mike did know how important 222 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: casting was, and yet the list of actors that he 223 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: fired over the decades is really pretty impressive. It's like 224 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: Gene Hackman, Robert de Niro and in that case, Mandy Pottakin. 225 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: I know that Mike was very impressed by his work 226 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: on stage, and that was a moment when he was 227 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: really coming up. He was a big deal on Broadway, 228 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: and Mike often felt that could carry over. I mean, 229 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: he would fill out the supporting cast of his movies 230 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: a lot of the time with people he had seen 231 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: on Broadway or off Broadway because he knew they could deliver. Yeah, 232 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: he even flew them to Texas when he was doing Silkwood. 233 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: But that's different, obviously than casting a romantic leading man 234 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: opposite Meryl Streep. I mean, so it could have been 235 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: the jewishness, it could have been that he just felt 236 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: a good connection with that character. But whatever it was, 237 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: clearly it was something that he Nichols decided pretty early 238 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: on was a wrong call. I mean, they shot for 239 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: a week before he fired Mandy Patinkin, but it sounded 240 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: to me like even before that, in the read throughs, 241 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: in the rehearsals, Nichols had a really strong sense that 242 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: it was not going well on a character level and 243 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: maybe not going so well on a personal level. Meryl 244 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: said that Mandy was very rabbinical in his questioning and 245 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: then his character development. Right, I loved that word. That's 246 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: exactly what she said. She said he was rabbinical, that 247 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: he had to kind of interrogate everything about the character, 248 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: maybe even to the point of torturing people a little. 249 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: But one thing that seemed to come up a lot, 250 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: and I can understand how this would be a sticking 251 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: point was he kept saying, I don't understand this. Why 252 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: would a man ever cheat on his wife? Why would 253 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: a man ever cheat on his pregnant wife? And heartburn 254 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: was obviously like the facts of the case, we're not 255 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: in dispute. It's based on this real thing that happened 256 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: between carlburn Steen and or Evran. So I think there 257 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: was a feeling that at some point we got to 258 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: get off the y and just move on to it happened. 259 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: So you have to figure out why this like this 260 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: guy did this, and that's what you have to play. 261 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: I love how you write. When Nicholson comes on the project, 262 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: he says, Mike, if you need me, I'm there, and 263 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: then later on they interpreted Mike, if you need me, 264 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: what he meant was if you need me, which is 265 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: means an eight million dollar price ticket, I'm there. Well, 266 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that decision just completely changed 267 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: the budget of the movie. Heartburn was not an expensive movie, 268 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: and it turned into a much more expensive movie the 269 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: second Nicholson came on board, but he did it with 270 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: very few days. Notice, well, you know, Mike decides that 271 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: in order to have the Hollywood career he wants to 272 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: have in the budgets and get paid what he wants 273 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: to paid. The budgets inflate in direct proportion to Mike's 274 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: salary inflating. If Mike's salary becomes six seven eight million dollars, 275 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: the budget goes from fifty sixty five million dollars, and 276 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: that the canoe tips over. In terms of casting, you 277 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: have to have the star. We go, we're gonna get 278 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: less creative maybe about who should play the part, and 279 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna start talking about who we need to play 280 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: the part to sell tickets. And I wonder if you 281 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: felt that he ever express any anxiety or regret about 282 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: the fact that, in order to make big ticket movies 283 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: he couldn't cast who he wanted in the film. Well, 284 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if it turned into a casting thing, 285 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: but probably the worst example of a movie where his 286 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: ask his fee changed the whole nature of the movie 287 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: was what planeted Are You from? The comedy he made 288 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: with Gary Sandling, because everyone who wrote that movie, which 289 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: seems like a pretty long list of people when you 290 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: add everyone who took a crack at the script and 291 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: and even people who were in it, like and At Benning, 292 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: said this was this really should have been a small movie. 293 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: There should have been an indie style, Charlie Kaufman, quirky 294 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: little comedy, and instead I think it becomes maybe with 295 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: the exception of Primary Colors, the biggest fee that Mike 296 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: ever got for a movie. In the minute you're paying 297 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: someone like Mike Nichols eight million dollars in the nineties 298 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: to direct a movie, suddenly it becomes a completely different 299 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: kind of movie. So what planet are you from? Turned 300 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: into this movie with big sets and special effects and 301 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: and sort of elaborate costumes and kind of heaviness of 302 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: production value that crushed the comedy under its weight. And 303 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: I think that was the only time where money actually 304 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: did damage in a kind of material way to a 305 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: movie that Mike was making. I mean, he did get 306 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: a lot of money for Primary Colors, but Primary Colors 307 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: was probably always going to be a movie where you 308 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: wanted to see a couple of stars play those parts. 309 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: When you're doing a movie about a potential president and 310 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: first lady, you want to see big names, And in 311 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: that case, to Mike's credit, he did resist. You know, 312 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: there was a lot of pressure to turn the main character, 313 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: the narrator of the novel Primary Colors, who was African 314 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: American on the page, into a white character. People were 315 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: openly saying, like, why don't you give this to Michael J. Fox. 316 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: This is a perfect part for him, And Mike resisted 317 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: that and actually cast an unknown actor, Adrian Lester in 318 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: the part. So I don't think there are too many 319 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: cases where money got in the way of him casting 320 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: a movie the right way. I mean, I know that 321 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: on Working Girl there was a lot of back and 322 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: forth with the studio right about whether they could afford 323 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: two stars in the leading part or they wanted Melanie 324 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 1: and I to play the two leads, right, And then 325 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: he said, and he said to me point there was 326 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: one of my favorite conversation with Mike. He said, if 327 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: I put you in Melanie in the leads, where they're 328 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: gonna give me twenty million dollars to make my movie, 329 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,479 Speaker 1: and if I cast these other people, they're gonna give 330 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: me fifty million dollars to make my movie. She said, 331 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: I hope you don't mind, but I'm gonna have to 332 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: go with them in order to make my That was 333 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: one of my first indoctrinations into that. And meaning there's 334 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: a metric, there's an arithmetic to this, which is there's 335 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: just nothing I can do about it. I can't make 336 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: my movie for twenty million dollars. And he said, would 337 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: you play this other part? Would you play this smaller? 338 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: I said, you got. I mean I just wanted to 339 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: be around him and work with him. I once said 340 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: to someone, Travolta is the last movie star in the timeline, 341 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: mean that old movie stars after that are all about 342 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: effects and guns and cars and computer generating, and that 343 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: the star of themselves is the hood ornament on a vehicle. 344 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: Travolta is a very old school movie star in terms 345 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: of you build the movie around what he can do 346 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: you and if you don't make the movie built around 347 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: what he can do as primary colors, you suffer because 348 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: he's not really right for that role. And in my mind, well, 349 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: and he was the second choice. I mean, Mike really 350 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: wanted Tom Hanks for that part, and it sounded to 351 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: me like he came actually quite close to getting Tom Hanks, 352 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: and then Hanks backed away. Some people said because he 353 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: didn't want to offend the Clinton's I read that when 354 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: Hanks said to me, was I thought of myself as 355 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: an old young man but still not quite old enough 356 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: to play a president. Well, someone said that to me. 357 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: Was They said, oh, if you do that part in 358 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: that movie, they go, you'll be middle aged for the 359 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: rest of your life. And then you also write about 360 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: how the timing of the Clinton scandal and the film collide. Yeah. 361 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: I had kind of forgotten that. I knew that they 362 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: were intermingled, but I didn't remember that we're talking about 363 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: two separate scandals. That the Primary Colors was really springing 364 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: off the Jennifer Flowers story, and then in the middle 365 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: of it, the Monica Lewinsky story breaks. Yeah, I mean 366 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: a story that makes Primary Colors suddenly looks quite a 367 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: children's book, right exactly. And um, Emma Thompson, this speaks 368 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: to Travolta's stardom. Emma Thompson tells a really funny story 369 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: about the moment they all found out, which is they 370 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: were sitting around and Emma Thompson said, Mike and I 371 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: were reading, you know, rice and beans out of all 372 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: the starring containers, and John Travolta had like a seventy 373 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: five course chef's meal. He had his own chef on 374 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: the set, And I thought that was like, of all 375 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: the star indulgences, that struck me as one that like Mike, 376 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: would be the most forgiving of because he loved food 377 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: so much. What's rehearsal without donuts? Right from Barefoot in 378 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: the Park. So it happened a couple of times in 379 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: Mike's life that this thing just from out of left 380 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: field kind of derailed a movie at the last minute. 381 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: Once was Catch twenny two when they saw Mash just 382 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: a couple of months before Catch twenny two was supposed 383 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: to open and realized that Match was going to take 384 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: the entire audience that they were hoping to get and 385 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: Catch twenty two. And the other was Primary Colors, where 386 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: they all said, I don't really know what's going to 387 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: happen to the movie, but they knew what was going 388 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: to happen to the movie. They knew that it was 389 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: totally eclipsed by the scandal, right, And when you read 390 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: the reviews of it at the time, some of them 391 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: even say explicitly, like we see this on the news 392 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: every night, and this movie feels like it's about something 393 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 1: that happened two years ago, and nobody's mind is on 394 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: that anymore. I got a little choked up reading this 395 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: book because it's like you get to those forks in 396 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: the road of career versus personal life, and you have 397 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: to say to yourself, am I willing to do what 398 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: it takes for some people? The answer to that question 399 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: is very easy. I mean, it's just reflective that they 400 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: when you're offered that opportunity. I remember when I would 401 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: be working in films early on and things were getting 402 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: a little shinier. People looked at me with there was 403 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: an unmistakable look. At least I thought it was unmistakable 404 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: where they looked at me, like, you realize, we don't 405 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: ask just anybody to do this, don't you? You realize 406 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: that they are at bus loads of people coming here 407 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: who want to be sitting exactly where you are right 408 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: now discussing with us. I mean, they really put a 409 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: pressure on me to want to spend the big wheel 410 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: of the movie star game, whether it was gratifying creatively 411 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: or not. And I had grown up tortured by wanting 412 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: to be a better actor. And I thought it, well, 413 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: that's not going to get me there, and they were like, 414 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: you need to go get a vaccine for that. We 415 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: need to get you disabused of that, because who gives 416 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: a shit about that? Where we're gonna, I'll be offering 417 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: you your own seat up here on Mount Olympus. And 418 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: I always struggled with that, and I see that with Mike, 419 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: and that that leads me to the question, do you 420 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: think he was happy? I think it depends on when 421 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: you're asking about for a long time, I think the 422 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: answer is no, and he would have said no. I mean, 423 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: I was shocked. This was when I was working on 424 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: my first book. But I was shocked when I asked 425 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: him about coming to the Oscars and winning for the 426 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: Graduate and for Best Director his second film, and he 427 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: basically said, and his face almost fell when he said that. 428 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: He said, I really have no memory of that experience, 429 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: but misery and wanting to get back to the hotel 430 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: and feeling like being alone at the hotel at midnight 431 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: was the entire experience of winning that Oscar. He described 432 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: himself as Mr. And Hedonia, And I think that lasted 433 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: well past nine eight I think there were long stretches. 434 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: Even when Mike was being fairly productive, like in the 435 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: early eighties when he was not directing movies but directing 436 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: a lot on stage. He described himself as sleepwalking through 437 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: entire productions that he did, just feeling totally disconnected from it. 438 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I think depression was something that he really 439 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: wrestled with for a very long time. I do think 440 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: later in life, Mike was more happy, more settled, more 441 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: comfortable with the kind of work he did and the 442 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: way he made his choices and what he was doing. 443 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: And I think his marriage to Diane had a lot 444 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: to do with that. And also I feel like he 445 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: always wanted to work, but he didn't necessarily feel that 446 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,719 Speaker 1: he had that much to prove anymore, and so that 447 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: made him happy. But now there were long stretches when 448 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: I think what was externally going on in his world 449 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: in terms of the creative work he was doing, did 450 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: not match his mood, his happiness at all. It seems 451 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: like there's a fracture was an impact of Mike's personal 452 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: life and his personal psyche from when things end with 453 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:58,239 Speaker 1: Elaine until he meets Diane. Mike isn't healed until he 454 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: finds Diane. When he finds Diane, he finds a woman 455 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: that is really the woman who makes him feel better 456 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: and is the right fit for him in terms of 457 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: a companion and a wife. Do you think that's true. 458 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: I think that's true. Yeah, I really think that's true. 459 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: I love the thing that he said to Doug Wick, 460 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: the producer of Working Girl, which you know, it was 461 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: a movie he made while he was sort of preparing 462 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: to marry Diane, which was he said, if I don't 463 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 1: find a woman who will kick my ass when I'm 464 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: rude to a cab driver, I'm doomed. I mean, he 465 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: was immensely proud of Diane and what she did, and 466 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: he he loved her celebrity. He genuinely did. But I 467 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: think he also felt that he needed someone to tether 468 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: him to humanity and to say behave yourself and to 469 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: say treat other people well. But yeah, I do think 470 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: there's this long stretch after his big rift with Elane. 471 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: May happens in ninety two, sixty three, and by sixty 472 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: five or sixty six, they're friends again, and they're they're 473 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: doing occasional performances for benefits and she the love of 474 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: his life. The book to screams that not from you, 475 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: but you lay out the fact. You go, my God, 476 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: Was this just the love of his love? Was he 477 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: so deeply in love with this woman? I think he 478 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: was deeply in love with her. I don't know enough, honestly, 479 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: about Mike's third marriage, which lasted a really long time 480 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: and was a serious relationship with someone who really cared 481 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: about him and who he really cared about. I feel 482 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: like it's not my place to rank loves, but I 483 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: absolutely know that Elaine was his first love, and he, 484 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: I mean, his first wife, looks exactly like her, so 485 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: it's hard not to draw conclusions from that. Mark Harris, 486 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: author of Mike Nichols Alive. If you're enjoying this conversation, 487 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the I 488 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 489 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: When we come back. Mark Harris talks about Mike nichols 490 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: later years and how, at long last he started to 491 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: become Mark tent. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 492 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Mike Nichols was married four times. His 493 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: last two journalists, Diane Sawyer. They were together twenty six 494 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: years until Mike's death in two thousand fourteen. She was 495 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: someone who had to get on a plane and go 496 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: a lot of the times, I mean at a moment's notice, 497 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 1: because she worked in news, and um, I just remember 498 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: a few times from the years when I knew Mike 499 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: he would really miss her when she was gone, but 500 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: he would also be so proud of the fact that 501 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: she was doing it. And the combination of two super 502 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: high achievers in completely different fields is really interesting because 503 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: there's no real competition there. Mike did not aspire to 504 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: be in television news and Diane didn't aspire to be 505 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: in the movie business. And that's a good combination. Yeah, 506 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: to get back to Gary Shandling, only because you handle 507 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: that beautifully. You write in Shandling, a congenitally nervous comedian 508 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: insecure about his attractiveness, two women, terrified that people were 509 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: smirking at his hair. He had seen a nightmare version 510 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: of his own reflection. For his entire life, he had 511 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: worked to compose a surface self and impeccably polished Mike Nichols, 512 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: capable of concealing any insecurity with an epigram A decisive 513 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: piece of direction where brilliantly inscrutable, wide eyed grin whose 514 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: infinite variations could meet anything from how true to what 515 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: a terrible idea? To only you and I know we're 516 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: on the Titanic. I just love that. I love that. 517 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: He told George Siegel. So this was as early as 518 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, the mid sixties. It takes me three hours 519 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: to become Mike Nichols every day. And and I held 520 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: onto that line so tightly because it tells you so 521 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: much like what it costs you to compose a self, 522 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: like to feel that you can't go into the world 523 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: without creating this external self that is someone you can 524 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: carry off. But also what are you afraid that people 525 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: are going to see if you don't do that? I 526 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: think that's what Gary Schandling triggered. That Gary Shandling was 527 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: somehow to Mike the person that Mike was afraid other 528 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: people saw when they looked at him. And which which 529 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: tragic is that Mike in the casting realm, when you 530 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: talk about that collision of the budget, the star, the 531 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: nature of the person. That was a fifteen million dollar movie, 532 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: right and then suddenly it's a what fifty nine million 533 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: dollar movie? I mean all wrong, and there's no way 534 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: he can I think Mike's worst fear was to be 535 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: painted into a corner and there was nothing he could do. 536 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: He was so resourceful. You present him with a problem 537 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: and it was fun, It was a game. He was 538 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: always with clever people. Sondheim, who's more clever than son Teim, 539 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Bernstein, all the friends of 540 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: his in Connecticut and up in a Cape cod in 541 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: Martha's vineyard or wherever he was, and everything seemed to 542 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: be people who had built these towering careers out of 543 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: problem solving and loving the challenge. But when you put 544 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: him in a situation where there was no way out, 545 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: you were trapped and no wonder he decided to just 546 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: decimate Shandling. Right. I don't get the impression that Mike 547 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,719 Speaker 1: minded if an actor was momentarily stuck on a scene 548 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: or a line or something that neither to be talked through, 549 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: because that was an interesting puzzle to try to figure out, 550 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: and if he believed in the actor, Mike even had 551 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: pleasure in that. But with Shandling, he later said that 552 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: he was sort of fooled that he thought from watching 553 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: the Larry Sanders show which was of course so brilliant 554 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: that Gary Shandling was just a completely facile, natural actor, 555 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: and when that turned out not to be the case, 556 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: and that was probably Mike's fault in many ways for 557 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: not having spent some real time with Shandling to get 558 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: to know him beforehand, it was I mean, it reminded 559 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: me of something that someone said in an another context 560 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: about him, which was when he couldn't get something from 561 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: an actor, he was like a musician whose instrument suddenly 562 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: refused to play, that he just got stuck. He did 563 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: not know how to move forward. And what's unfortunate with 564 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: what planet are you from, is that in that case, 565 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: it really sent him into this just terrible temper where 566 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: he really did, by all accounts, take it out on 567 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: Gary Chandling in a pretty terrible way. But when you 568 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: said it about Diane tethering him when he's abusive towards 569 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: cab drivers, you can almost hear people like that in 570 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: his life saying you're not so all fault anymore, so 571 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: a little less tarib if you don't mind, you know, 572 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: I mean, he's so he that grown man who loses 573 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: control of himself. Believe it, I've been there and that's 574 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: not great. Now. I was at Mike and some people 575 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: I don't really remember. It's kind of weird. Was thrown 576 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: together so hastily, or at least it wasn't my mind. 577 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: We did this benefit one of those highly improvhasatory, wonderful evening. 578 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: It was one of the funny evenings I've ever had. 579 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: We did, I think at Carnegie Hall called Short Talks 580 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: on the Universe, and any Lane wrote up vignette, but 581 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: I did a scene with Ellen Barkin and Ellen Ellen 582 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: and I play two people that are flirting with each other, 583 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: or think they're going to flirt with each other and 584 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: think that's what's happening, and they wind up just tearing 585 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: each other to pieces, saying with such horrible things to 586 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 1: each other. And it was very funny. I mean normally 587 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,719 Speaker 1: that kind of Albi esque thing wears a little thin 588 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: on me after a while. Virginia Wolf and that kind 589 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: of thing that there's the shouting and the venom and everything, 590 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh God, I get exhausted. But we did it. 591 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: It was very funny, and in that way that he 592 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: loved to improvise, he loved to get people to just 593 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: fling it against the wall and play with it, which 594 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: is probably his greatest gift. Because other other directors are 595 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: astute with a camera and cutting and so forth, and 596 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: other people know how to manufacture a movie, even a 597 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: hit movie, But getting actors, shepherding them toward the breakthroughs 598 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: and they're acting, is the thing that I think he's 599 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: the most memorable for and come from all of his 600 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: improphessitory work. In fact, Eline was sitting behind me. Wow, 601 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: I went on stage and did my thing that I 602 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: took my seat in the audience. They held a seat 603 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: and Eline was behind me with Donnin and I turned 604 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: her and I said, what a Stanley Donnin have that 605 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: I don't have? I think, he said an Oscar. I said, 606 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: that's true, that's true, But I mean everybody who knew 607 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: Elaine was just madly in love with Ela, and Emiline 608 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: couldn't give a ship me. Lane was like, she's kind 609 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: of thrived from the fact that does she really care 610 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: what you thought? She talked to you? Correct, she said, 611 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: the only things I can remember are the things I'm 612 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: not going to tell you. It was difficult to get 613 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: her to commit to do it. It always seemed to 614 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: be postpond and prest bond. Once we sat down and talked. 615 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: Other than that very scary first thing that she said 616 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: to me, she was great. There's so little that she 617 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: has done in terms of real, sit down, non joky 618 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: interviews over the last fifty years that I really didn't 619 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: know what it was going to be. And I couldn't 620 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: believe how not only forthcoming she was, but how specific 621 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: she was about the dynamic between her and Mike professionally 622 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: and personally, the work that they had done together, the 623 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: pain of that breakup, the way their relationship was different 624 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: after the breakup and after their reconciliation, the way they 625 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: stayed together for fifty five years after that. I mean, 626 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: I feel like an enormous amount of what I came 627 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: to learn and understand about Mike grew out of that interview, 628 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: which fortunately was an interview that happened quite early in 629 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: my interviewing process, so I was able to I mean, 630 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: she was the first person I went after, and really 631 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: the only person in the book who if she had 632 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: said no, it would be a different book. I really 633 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: don't know how I would have done it. It would 634 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: have been hamstrung there. Yeah, Kushner, of course, Angels is 635 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: done by Mike for HBO. Did you get to know 636 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: him at all during the shoot? Did you become friendly 637 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: with Mike at all? Yeah, that was the first time 638 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: I met him was probably when he was in Central 639 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: Park one night directing this cruising scene and I remember 640 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: Tony and I he called Lake because he was having 641 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: trouble with the scene or something, and he said, get 642 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: out of your apartment, come down here because I need you. 643 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: And so Tony and I walked down there, which was 644 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: just a fifteen minute walk, and we were saying, I 645 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: wonder if we're gonna be able to find the shoot, 646 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,959 Speaker 1: and then we rounded the corner onto Central Park South 647 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: and like the whole Central Park South is floodless circus 648 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: is there? That was our first understanding that this was 649 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: going to be a big production. But yeah, the first 650 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: time I ever met Mike was watching him direct a 651 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: scene that he was having trouble with and that was 652 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: an amazing introduction just getting to see him sort of 653 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: figure out is this an actor problem? Is this a 654 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: visual problem? Do I not have enough fog? Is this 655 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: a staging problem? Is this the way guys would walk 656 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: toward each other, away from each other? It was really 657 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: interesting to watch him kind of struggle, but also almost 658 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 1: mathematically or forensically work out like what am I not 659 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: getting here that I need to get? And it wasn't 660 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: a case where he was taking it out on anyone. 661 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 1: And I was always interested that he called Tony that 662 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: night and and said like, come help me, which was 663 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: not Mike's away necessarily, but he didn't mind asking for guidance. 664 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: Was the book in your mind then, no, not at all. 665 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: I never thought of doing a book about Mike until 666 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 1: after he passed away. I urged Mike to write his autobiography, 667 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: and he wouldn't do it. No, interesting no, And he 668 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: used to say, not only do I not want to 669 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: do it, but I'm very proud that I have made 670 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: any future biographer's job impossible by burning all my papers. 671 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: Towards the very end of his life, he did for 672 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: the first time expressed some interest and maybe doing a 673 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: book where he would sit with the writer and they 674 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: would just go project by project and he would talk 675 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: about directing. So his papers are not donated somewhere. Nothing 676 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: was left to any academic institution. No, I I don't 677 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: think they're not then he like library or university or 678 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: anything like that, and maybe that will happen down the road. 679 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: Luckily for me, everybody who might ever wrote a note 680 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: to or an email too, seems to have saved it. 681 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: So I was able to get his own voice into 682 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: the book, which was really important to me. Well, whenever 683 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: I saw him, he was very sweet to me. He 684 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: would hug me and he was so nice. I think 685 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: I saw him the Lincoln Center maybe a year before 686 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: he died. He was with Diane, but he asked me 687 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: to do postcards from the edge. I remember we were 688 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: under the cloak of the holidays one year, it was 689 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: like January, and he said, I want you to come 690 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: to do this movie with me. I want you to 691 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: play this part. I said, I really don't know. I said, uh, 692 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: we're not shooting until May. I said, well, I've been 693 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: having this problem with my same girlfriend. I said, been 694 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: having this problem that I keep trying to end this 695 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: relationship and it's so painful, it's just so miserable of 696 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: and I thought of old people. He wouldn't understand lingering, 697 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: nagging problems. But he had this great line. He goes, 698 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: what kind of problems could you possibly have that couldn't 699 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: be solved by May? He said, and I thought, well, 700 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: you really made me feel like ship. Now you have 701 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: a point there, But I didn't do the movie, and 702 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: I that when you did, when he invited you and 703 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: you didn't come, it was not good. Matthew Broderick told 704 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: me an interesting thing, which as he said that he 705 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: felt that actors men came in and out of Mike's scope, 706 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: that for a while the bright light really shone upon you, 707 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: and you were the guy, and it could only be you, 708 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: and then it would move on. But actresses he tended 709 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: to hold onto forever, like he didn't really let go 710 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: of an actress once he loved her. On the Richard 711 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: Burton documentary that was on PBS, there's a wonderful line 712 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: that Mike himself had and he said something along the 713 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: lines of he said, Richard had completely lost the distinction 714 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: between being and seeming until his life had become only 715 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: about seeming. And I thought, was that true of Mike 716 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: as well, where where a large part of his life 717 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: was he was obsessed with people's perception of him as 718 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: opposed to how he really lived his life. I'm sort 719 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: of pay shuring that question as a diagram, and I'm 720 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: thinking that like maybe as the years and the decades 721 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: go on, the being and seeming lines get closer and closer, 722 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: until Mike finally was what he seemed to be or 723 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: seemed to be what he was. I guess depending on 724 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: what angle you look at it from. But I think 725 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: who Mike was and who Mike wanted to be finally 726 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: did come together despite of this childhood. I would say, so. Yeah. 727 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,919 Speaker 1: He talked about how directing put him in the place 728 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: where he was the father to the room full of people. Right. 729 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: That's such a striking thing to me in that he 730 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: felt it when he was thirty one or thirty two 731 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: years old and he walks into a rehearsal room for 732 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: the first time for Barefoot in the Park and says, oh, 733 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: I get it. This is what I want to be. 734 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: I want to be a director because the directors the dad. 735 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: I think of myself at thirty one and not aware 736 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: enough being the dad was not like high on my 737 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: list year, but my paternal nature exactly. So it's an 738 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: interesting instinct at that young age to decide that, oh, 739 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: this is who I am. I'm the father. But it's 740 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: like to me, I mean, I only have a silly 741 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 1: analysis of it, but it's like Mike was like the 742 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: somalia of human emotion and feeling. He had this hyper 743 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: developed sense of what people were feeling and why and 744 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: how it was expressed. So when he was directing actors, 745 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 1: he'd be listening and he'd be sitting there going, you know, no, no, no, no, 746 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: not that, do it again, and and we're going to 747 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: get closer to the thing that he knew was the 748 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: perfect take, or the right take, the truest take, the 749 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: funniest take. He had to such an ear and an 750 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: eye for that kind of thing. And so maybe that 751 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: guy that has that hyper developed sense is the kind 752 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: of guy that could say I'm the father in the 753 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: room and I'm thirty one years old. He was so 754 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: developed emotionally. Maybe so because by that time he had 755 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: spent his whole childhood and adolescence watching other kids, like 756 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,479 Speaker 1: kids who looked to him like quote unquote normal kids 757 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: and who sounded like normal kids. I mean, he spent 758 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: so much of his childhood sta to get apart from 759 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: the crowd, thinking what does it look like? What does 760 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: exactly it looked like when someone is popular or when 761 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,959 Speaker 1: someone's unpopular, or when someone's awkward. I think that went 762 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: into him really early, that you figured out human nature 763 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: by watching other people. Yes, Oh God, that that resonated 764 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: for me so incredibly. I want to just say, this book, 765 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: Mike Nickles of Life. I went into this and I 766 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: thought I knew everything about Nichols. You made me see 767 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: Nichols in a different light. And because the order of 768 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: the book and the way you put it together, in 769 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: the whole arc of the book, you made me see 770 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: this guy in a light that that much of it 771 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: I knew, but I didn't really know. And this book 772 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: really so definitive. It's just just a beautifully written book. 773 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: To congratulations, Thank you so much. And I have to 774 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: say I don't think I've done an interview for this 775 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: with someone who has read the book as carefully as 776 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: you have. No, I loved it. I loved it. I 777 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: couldn't put it down. I really mean that, I couldn't 778 00:40:54,560 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: put it down. So anyway, thank you, thank you for 779 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: Mark Harris on legendary director Mike Nichols. The book is 780 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: Mike Nichols Alive. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Karry Donohue, 781 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. I'm Alec Baldwin, 782 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: here's the thing. Is brought to you by iHeart Radio