WEBVTT - Managing the Rapid Pace of Technological and Scientific Revolutions 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:09.280 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:13.600 with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:14.080 Well. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.720 Our next guest is a technology and healthcare futurist. Served 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:20.720 in the US National Security Council, State Department, and Senate 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.720 Form Relations Committee, and with the United Nations in Cambodia. 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.560 Most recently, he or more recently, I should say, he 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.920 has been exploring and explaining the world of genetic engineering. 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.280 We are talking about Jamie Metzel. He's the author of 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:37.120 Hacking Darwin Genetic Engineering in the Future of Humanity. For 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.440 other books he has also written. He was a member 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.480 of the World Health Organization Expert Advisory Committee on Human 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.120 Genome Editing. We want to get to it because he 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.440 is with us. He's Senior Fellow at the Atlanta Council, 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.320 founder and chair of the nonprofit One Shared World. His 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.080 new book out is called super Convergence, How the genetics, 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.920 biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives, world and 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.240 work work World. Jamie is in New York City and 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:04.560 the book is out Tuesday. Forgive me, Jamie, I'm kind 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.399 of rushing to get to you because I want to 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:07.039 talk to you. 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.680 How are you. I'm great, Carol, great to hear your voice. 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.200 We've been at this together for many years, so it's 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:14.280 great to be together again. 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:16.200 Well, what do you think about that journey and what 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.760 you are kind of focusing on at this point and 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:23.520 really tackling some really big areas and kind of putting 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.880 them together, and the importance of kind of thinking about 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.800 them together, and I mean genetics, biotech and AI. 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:29.559 Yeah. 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.840 So this book, in many ways, it's the culmination kind 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:38.039 of my entire life, and I'm trying to ask the 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.480 question is what do we do and how do we 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.319 manage these two most fundamental transformations of our lives? And 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:49.200 those two transformations are this is the moment, after three 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.960 point eight billion years of life on Earth, that our 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:57.760 one species has developed these two transformational superpowers, and that's 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:02.520 we are creating novel intelligence and have developed the capacity 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:05.960 to recast all of life, including our own. 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:08.080 And the one question. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.200 That's going to determine whether our species thrives in the 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:15.400 future or doesn't is whether we can use these new 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:20.760 godlike superpowers wisely. And again, Carol, you mentioned my last book, 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:25.079 Hacking Darwin, was all about the future of human genetic engineering, 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:26.919 and then I was, as you and I have discussed, 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.040 deeply involved in the issues of pandemic origins. I was 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.560 a member of the World Health Organization Expert Committee on 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.480 Human Genome Mediting after the first Crisper babies were born. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.920 And so I definitely am deeply involved in the science 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:45.040 of what these intersecting AI genetics and biotechnology revolutions mean, 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:51.080 and then the applications healthcare, agriculture, manufacturing, data. 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.760 Storage, and lots of other things. But then the question is, well, 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:54.520 how do we do it? 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:56.919 And so one is we need to be very cognizant 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.240 of the dangers, which are very real, and then we say, 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.079 what's the path forward, how do we do this wisely? 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.600 And what are the building blocks of getting to the 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:07.320 place where we want to be, Because if we get 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:12.040 this right, we can have much better healthcare, more abundant 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.120 foods for everybody around the world, and all kinds of 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.000 wonderful things. And we get it wrong, we can get 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:22.600 sin bio pandemics, we can crash ecosystems, we can undermine 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:23.960 our very humanity. 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:25.440 And that's why I've written a book for everyone. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.040 I want people to take this book to the beach 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.799 and be comfortable and having fun reading it on the beach. 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.080 They go, that was a really easy read, but I 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.760 actually learned a lot and it sparked a lot of 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:36.800 meaningful conversations. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.280 I have to say that I have been watching though 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:43.000 a video you did where you talked about the book. 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.600 You're in San Jose, California. You're competing in an ultra marathon. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.520 It's raining, there's lots of mud. We're actually showing it 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.640 for our viewers right now. You talk about your hands 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:58.000 getting numb, you're sniffling because it's cold, it's raining. 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.280 Are you walking and running? Jamie, to clarify, here looks like. 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:05.400 It looks like I say, I am so honored that 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.280 you are sharing this with your viewers. So, for those 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.360 of you who don't do ultra marathons, ultra marathons are hard. 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:14.360 Ultra marathon is a race longer than a marathon. 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.280 The ones that I do are fifty kilometer thirty thirty 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.279 two mile races, and I do mountain trail runs. And 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.560 I was in San Jose speaking at sin Bio Beta, 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.279 which is the big synthetic biology conference that my friend 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:30.400 John Cumbers runs. 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.080 And I thought, oh, this is going to be easy. 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:33.000 Famous last words. 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:34.799 I'm just going to go the day before the conference 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:36.600 and I'll run this race San Jose. 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:38.919 The weather's perfect. How big could the hills be? 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.840 So it turns out the hills were pretty big, and 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:46.279 it turned out they had this uncharacteristic freezing like rainy, 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:51.040 slushy storm. And it was like you, I'm so much 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:52.960 older than you guys, but you know what a three 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.960 hour tour means when you know this is going to 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.960 be easy, like a three It was a three hour 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:01.400 tour and so and then I knew that I had 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.359 somebody had asked me to record a video about the book. 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.159 And I was walking up this hill at mile like 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.159 thirty and it was kind of this straight up you know, 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:14.080 I'm what can I do to record? It's like, you're 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.280 insane at those moments. I'm going to record a. 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.120 Record a video about this book. That seems like a 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:19.919 good idea. 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:23.080 So I didn't well, I was thinking about watching it, 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.320 and I was like, I feel, you know, you know, 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:27.520 when you're out in nature, you said times for me, 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.599 my brain opens up. I think differently, maybe more clearly, 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:35.040 about some of the big ideas and trends and innovations. Disruptions, 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:36.360 whatever the heck you want to call them, that are 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.000 coming at us big time. How do you cross nature 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:41.880 with some of these dynamic trends that are coming us 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:47.320 that will clearly test kind of natural evolutionary theory that 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:49.080 is dominated for so long. 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.880 This is why you're such a great journalist, Carroll, to 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.320 make such a smooth transition as that one. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.360 And what I'll say is the things that we. 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:03.680 Call nature aren't natural. If you go to Whole Foods 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:07.080 and go to the fruits and vegetables section, you would 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.479 be hard pressed to find a fruit or a vegetable 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:15.599 that twenty thousand years ago existed in anything like its 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:16.240 current form. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:17.880 It almost doesn't exist. 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.080 Maybe there's one or two things if you like, when 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.479 I was out hiking in San Jose, it seemed like 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.000 nature because there were a lot of trees. But nay, 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.640 if we mean by nature what it was like before 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:33.000 humans changed everything, Like, no one went hiking just for 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.320 fun because the saber toothed hiker will eat you if 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.520 you do that. And so the thing that we call 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:43.599 nature is just the world that our ancestors managed and manipulated, 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.080 like you're your dog, that your dog didn't exist fifty 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:51.440 thousand years ago, in this ing, in this format, none 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:52.240 of them exactly. 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.400 And so what and even if. 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.960 You are the most indigenous farmer in the highlands of Peru, 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:03.480 make it make growing keen waw from ancient varieties of seeds, 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:08.240 you are a radical biotechnologist. Much more the difference between 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.880 the precursors to our domesticated crops and our current non 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.960 GMO corn and our current GMO corn. The difference between 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:21.840 the precursors and corn is way more than the minuscule 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:26.240 difference between current corn. And so the starting point for 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.640 this has to be the choice that we are making 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:32.920 as a species is not natural ursus unnatural. It's how 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.640 do we interact with the living world that we have 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.120 been managing and manipulating for thousands of years and do 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:45.920 so in the smartest, most economical, safest, most sustainable way 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:48.480 to achieve the things that we want to achieve. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:49.160 And what are those things? 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.800 Well, we don't want to die of terrible cancer. We 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.920 want to have gene therapy. So somebody who's born with 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.120 something like sickle cell disease rather than living a life 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.960 of excruciating pain and then dying prematurely and live a 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:03.600 normal life. 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:05.240 We want to grow more. 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.960 Crops on less land to feed more people. 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.000 So, Jamie, my question for you is, after doing the 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.280 research and reporting for this book and your other books, 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:15.760 how do you live your life differently? What do you 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.400 eat that's different? What do you do that's different than 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.160 you used to do now that you found all this 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:20.800 through research? 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.840 Yeah, so you know, it's funny people ask me this 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.480 a lot because I'm deeply involved in the world of, 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:28.920 for example, the science of human life extension. 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:30.520 And everyone says, oh, you must. 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.200 Be taking the NAD plus boosters and med foremen, and 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.679 you must be like doing like the thing where they 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.360 cut open the old and young mice and sew them together. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:42.720 You must be. 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.640 Doing that with I don't know who, or your girlfriend 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:47.600 or something, and I don't do any of that. 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.679 What I do is a few things. 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:54.000 One just in terms of my personal life. I exercise 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:55.880 an hour a day and eat healthy and do all 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.640 those blue zone things that everybody knows you're supposed to 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:04.719 do and are hard to do. Certainly in my healthcare 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.000 I try to get ahead of the curve because I 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:08.960 write about the future of healthcare in the book, and 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.960 where we're going is from our current world of healthcare 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.800 based on population averages. You have a headache and you 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.400 go to CVS and you pick up a tile and 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:22.280 all to our new world of healthcare precision or personalized 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.520 health care based on each person's individual biology. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:26.239 Because you know a small. 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:27.600 Percentage of people who take a tile and I will 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:30.440 have a terrible adverse reaction and could even die. And 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.120 so better to know you're one of those people before 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.560 you take the tile. And that's true for cancer therapies. 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:36.880 And all of that. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.520 So in that process, we're gaining a lot of information 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.719 about systems biology, so the complexity of human biology. 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:45.040 Right. 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.800 And then that's the next shift in our healthcare, which 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:52.400 is from precision to predictive and preventive, where with all 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.960 of this data and the formula for all of this 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.679 stuff is the more high quality data you have, the 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.839 more computing power, stronger algorithms, the more we're going to 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:04.800 be able to decipher actionable patterns. That's going to change 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:06.840 healthcare and industry and agriculture and everything. 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.160 Amen, Hey, listen, do not go anywhere. Jamie's going to 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.120 stay with us. Jamie Metzil we're talking with about his 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.400 new book Super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.960 revolutions will transform our lives, work, and world, including a 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.520 chapter on what possibly could go wrong. So we're going 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:24.319 to get into that. That's coming up next. I want 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.319 to get back to Jamie Metzil, Senior Fellow at the 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.360 Atlanta Council, founder and chair of the nonprofit on Shared World. 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.000 We are talking about his new book out on Tuesday, 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:37.160 Super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:40.280 transform our lives, work, and world. He is still with 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.160 us here in New York City. Hey, Jamie, one thing 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.360 I wanted to ask you. The way the book starts, 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:47.760 you have two quotes, but you say this is from 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.520 Stuart Brand. We are as gods and might as well 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:51.520 get good at it. 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:52.840 Ye. 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.840 What's the message there? It feels pretty powerful. 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:03.240 For millennia, our ancestor is imagined these all powerful gods. 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:07.319 They could create new stuff, they could recast life, they 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:11.839 could grant people's wishes to live extra life. They could 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:16.319 transform the world around them. We can now do all 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.360 of those things. So we are in many ways not 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.120 and always amaze. We are the all powerful gods that 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:27.680 we have imagined in our past, and just like we've 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:32.280 imagined those gods can build and destroy, we can build 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.680 and destroy. And so now we have these superpowers and 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.040 the question is are we going to use them to 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:42.440 build to make a better future for us individually, for 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.800 our companies, for our countries, and for our world, and 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.640 do it in really practical ways, or are we just 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:52.439 going to not do what needs to be to not 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:58.040 create the right frameworks and governance and values and accountability 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.679 and all the things that are required to make sure 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.320 this story has as happy of a process, because there's 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.800 no ending process as possible. If we don't do those things, 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.319 we're really going to be in trouble. 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:10.960 And that's why I've written the book. 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:15.559 That's why I'm so passionate about bringing everybody into this conversation, 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.200 because it's in the early when you're doing anything, starting 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.079 a company, that's when you need to say, hey, here's 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.079 what we stand for, here are our values right, and 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.360 then everything gets built on that. If we don't have 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.920 a conversation of what we're trying to achieve, who we are, 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.280 and what are the core values that are going to 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.680 guide us, If we make this a conversation just about 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.640 the technology itself, we're going to wind up in a 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.160 very unfamiliar and most likely scary place. 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.720 I have to say, I'm already scared because I question 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.160 the moral values and ethics that I feel like people 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:51.640 have really lost. I want to ask you, genetics, biotech, AI, 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:56.960 what worries you the most that we could get wrong? 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.280 And there is a chapter about what could go wrong 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.000 in general, and that's. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.880 What I'll say, in general and then specific. There is 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:10.200 a reason why anxiety has been preserved by evolution. Anxiety 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.240 is actually a really healthy emotion for us and for 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:17.480 every animal, because we're afraid of things, and that is 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.040 what inspires us to say, Hey, this terrible thing could happen. 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.760 I could be eaten by some horrible animal. So I'm 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.240 going to start planning so that that doesn't happen. And 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.680 so these fears that we have, I mean, there's some 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.920 people who are just such techno optimists. 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:33.880 They say, just do nothing in the future is going 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:35.360 to be great. That is not true. 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.040 Bad things could happen. We need to be honest now 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.440 about what they are. A few of them that I 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.719 highlight in the book. One, as I mentioned I was 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.560 a member of the World Health Organization Expert Advisory Committee 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.600 on Human Genome and doctor Tendros, the director of the 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.400 who created that after the world's first crisper babies were 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:55.839 born in China in twenty eighteen. 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:57.240 That was a terrible violation. 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.240 If we just say, hey, let's just do whatever willy 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:04.240 nilly human experimentation, we're going to wind up with more 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.400 Nuremberg trials and those kinds of violations. We have the 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:13.040 capacity to use gene drives, which is basically we weaponize 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:19.720 We put a little molecular scissors almost into the sex 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.400 cells that pass between animals, and we could use it 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.000 to wipe out mallarial mosquitoes, and that would be great. 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:28.520 We could save a million lives per year. 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.360 But we don't know how these full ecosystems work, and 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.080 if we're not careful, we could also crash whole ecosystems. 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.120 Not because we're trying to do harm, because we're trying 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.600 to do good. And as you and I have talked 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.640 about this before, Carol, but I've been in the middle 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:47.960 for the last almost four and a half years of 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.040 this debate about COVID nineteen origins, and it's my view 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:55.640 that the preponderance of the available evidence suggests a research 0:14:55.760 --> 0:15:01.520 related origin in Wuhan. And it's very likely that these 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.440 Chinese scientists who weren't trying to create bioweapons, but were 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.520 most likely trying to create a pan coronavirus vaccine and 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.560 had an accident and didn't realize what had happened, and 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.360 then things got worse and worse. So it's not just 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.000 that we're going to have doctor evil doing bad stuff. 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.800 It could be that well intentioned people, people who are 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:28.160 trying to prevent terrible diseases, or to stop malarial mosquitos, 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.000 or all sorts of things. And that's why, again and again, 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:32.520 I keep going back to values. 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.360 Right, it's establishing the north star? Where are we heading? 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:37.080 That makes us think about TIM and I talk a 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:37.760 lot about AI. 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.360 Yeah, so, Jamie, my question for you is where could 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:42.960 AI go wrong? And where what are the indications and 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:44.560 now about the direction that it's moving in. 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.240 Yeah, so this is it's such an important question. It's 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.080 the same question as we speak today. 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.520 Pope Francis has gone from Rome to Pulia for the 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.880 G seven summit, and the reason he's gone is to 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:01.240 participate in the conversation about about f and the future 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:05.000 of AI. So AI, like all of these technologies can 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.200 be used for good or for ill, and we're seeing 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:12.040 both of those things right now. We're seeing AI being 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.640 applied in healthcare settings and agriculture and all these other 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:20.160 areas in companies, and it's helping solve real problems in 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:27.360 very practical ways. And we're seeing deep fakes, manipulations, all 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.040 kinds of problems with AI. 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.240 And these are just the early days. 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.560 And right now, when people think about AI, most people think, 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.440 oh AI equals chat GPT, like I'm going to go 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:42.080 to this website and then I'm gonna do AI. But 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.760 if I were to ask you, guys, how did electricity 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:49.640 influence your life today, It's an unanswerable question because electricity 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:51.920 it's in your alarm clock, it's in your house, it's 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.160 in your air conditioning, it's in the microphone, it's in 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.640 our clothes, it's in our haircuts. It's just electricity is 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.280 part of everything that we do. And these technologies are 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.520 going to be part of everything that we do, part 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:09.080 of our accounting systems, our interacting systems, how we interact 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:13.560 with the world, how everything is made right. And that's 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:18.920 why we need to think systemically and systematically about about 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.200 these these technologies, and there are some of these people 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:24.000 who say, oh, just no regulation, government, get out of 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:24.240 the way. 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:25.480 That's the last thing we need. 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.240 We need wise governance and wise regulation. 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.040 Yeah, everything, Well, my dad say everything in moderation. I 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.080 know everybody's dad says that or mom says that, but 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.919 it's also everything. Like you gotta have some oversight of 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:40.560 all this stuff. Jamie, good luck, so much fun to 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.159 catch up with you again. Thank you so much for 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:46.040 finding time for us once again here at Bloomberg. Jamie, 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:46.840 take care you well. 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.400 Good luck also in the future ultra marathons. 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.040 I know he's pretty impressive. I love I highly recommend 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:53.960 you check out that YouTube video because he really does 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:55.680 go through so much of the book and like I said, 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.760 it's raining, there's mud. Jimmie is, of course, senior fellow 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.040 at the Atlanta Council, founder chair of the nonprofit One 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.280 Shared World. Check out his new book super Convergence, How 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.560 the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:08.199 work in World WI. 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.439 This is Bloomberg Business Week inside from the reporters and 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:17.199 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.199 global business, finance and tech news as it happenss Bloomberg 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:26.359 Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio. 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.000 It is Bloomberg Business Week. Well we talk about alts 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:36.600 a lot, alternative investing. What about so called alternative MBAs? 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.720 You want to say again, it's been. 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:41.480 One of those days. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:41.800 Well. 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.159 As Bloomberg Business Week contributor Rob Mandelbaum wrote in a 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.159 recent story for Bloomberg Business Week, development of alternative and 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:52.359 online NBA programs are infod today as traditional business schools 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:55.439 simultaneously grow more expensive and less popular. I kind of 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:56.400 get this story in a big way. 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.000 One company offering such a program is the corporate training 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.879 firm Ability, which has a comprehensive business skills course that 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.359 stylized as a twelve week MBA. The program is built 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.720 around simulations of real life business and management decision making. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.280 We've got with us. The CEO of Ability, Beyond, Bill Hart, 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.159 is here in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio along with 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:20.040 Dimitro Cassanids, who is Bloomberg News Senior editor. The editor 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:22.280 on the piece that I just read from. By the way, 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.439 from Bloomberg BusinessWeek contributor Rob Mandelbaum, who wrote about this 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:27.879 you and I do want to start with you because 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:30.680 you got your MBA at Harvard Business School, Like, let's 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.000 be honest, there's that's like the epitome of the NBA. 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.399 It doesn't get any more like traditional MBA than Harvard 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.119 Business School. But you're also quick to point out that 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.520 your program isn't supposed to replace a traditional MBA. 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:43.040 Who's it for? 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.679 Yeah, it is not supposed to replace Harvard Business School. 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:48.960 In fact, I should I should say that I got 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:51.680 the best ROI out of Harvard Business School. Has met 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.520 my wife there, so I have fun memory. 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:57.760 He said that one is good. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.800 Yes, I have fun memories of my two year But 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.120 the truth is there are in the US right now 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.800 one hundred and fifty thousand new MBAs every year and 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.240 over a million new management positions. So close to ninety 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:13.560 percent of new managers never set foot in a MBA 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.280 in the Hollard Halls of Harvard or other NBA schools, 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.239 and so there's this huge gap of people that have 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.520 an undergraduate degree in history and biology but are moving 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.480 into corporate jobs and need to understand what an income statement, 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:29.240 what a balance she looks like as they become a 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.200 leader of people. They need to understand how to manage others, 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:36.480 they need to understand how to collaborate and cross functional projects. 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.080 And so there's this need where ninety percent of the 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:43.640