1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Okay, Erica, you gotta get ready. This is too good. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: What are we watching? So we're in my basement and 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to force you to watch The Nutcracker, and 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: not just any Nutcracker. You're Nutcracker when you were Marie 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: aka Clara and other versions, but the main character that 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: was a Golden Year? A Golden Year? How did you 7 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: get these on your computer? Because weren't they vhs? Yeah? 8 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: How did you get these? Mom? And Dad? Can we 9 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: get to watch it? Because I'm dying to watch? All right? 10 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: I think this is going to be fun. I know 11 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: you're probably a little bit anxious. Oh my gosh, just 12 00:00:52,159 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: seeing the still of the costumes. So I guess I 13 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: should tell you. My name is Alan, I'm Erica's sister. 14 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: I also produced this show. I know it might feel 15 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: abrupt to suddenly hear from me, but there's something about 16 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: Erica that she's extremely reluctant to talk about that I 17 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: think you should know. Okay, I'm going to click on it. 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: We're going to full screen it. You're ready. The Youth 19 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: Ballet Company presents two thousand and one The Nutcracker December fourteenth, fifteenth, 20 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: and sixteenth. WHOA, this is epic they have, like the 21 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: roles they have, the whole cast, little List, Mouse Cook, 22 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: Missus Stallbam, doctor Stalbam. I didn't know he's a doctor. 23 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: Erica devoted her life to ballet for more than ten years. 24 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: She thought about trying to go all the way to 25 00:01:54,200 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: join a company and become a professional dancer. I can 26 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: picture all of these dancers and like how they danced. 27 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: I remember what their feet looked like, what looked like 28 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: definitely Marie so Bam, Erica Lance. Clearly, I'm enthusiastic. I'm 29 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: trying to pump Erica up and get her more excited, 30 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: but she's visibly uncomfortable. As the music plays and the 31 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: opening credits role, She's shifting in her seat. She's good 32 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: at masking how she feels, but I can tell it's 33 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: sparking a memory. I'm asking Erica to go back to 34 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: a time that honestly feels like another life, a time 35 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: when ballet defined her, a time when her ambition to 36 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: perform well and maybe to go pro consumed our family. 37 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: We haven't talked much about it for probably fifteen years, 38 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: and I think there's a reason for that, because when 39 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: Erica left, she closed that door and never opened it again. 40 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: As much as she loved it, she suffered in it. 41 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: At least that's what I think I saw. I was 42 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: so young that it feels like this hazy, distant silhouette 43 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: of a thing that doesn't feel real, like a wild 44 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: dream that I can't fully recall. Curtains opening, Where would 45 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: you have been in the wings? In the wings? Yep, 46 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: getting ready for my first entrance. I love that you 47 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: remember your first entrance. Of course, there you are. Oh, 48 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: are yours out here? I'm sneaking out trying to see 49 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: the presence. We'll look at those pointed feed Wow. I 50 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: look better than I expected somehow. Yeah, you look amazing. 51 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: You're acting with your whole body and moving very gracefully. Wow. 52 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: I'm actually really proud of my dancing in this. I 53 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: think I forgot how good I was at this point. 54 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: Does it bring you back, like, how did it feel 55 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: to be performing the lead role in the Nutcracker? It's 56 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: just so fun. I loved all of those rehearsals, and 57 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: I was always there for a very long time because 58 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: I was the main character, and I did not mind 59 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: at all. It's just pure fun, pure fun, totally worth 60 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: any pain, all right. Being tired or something totally worth it. 61 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: I absolutely loved it. Working on this series has been 62 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: hard on Erica. She's often had a quick aside like 63 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: why am I doing this? Or I don't know why 64 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: I signed up for this. It also brings up a 65 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 1: lot of what ifs and regrets. Interviewing people and writing 66 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: about ballet every day has made us both realize how 67 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: much her time in ballet is a part of who 68 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: she is. It led to a conversation that honestly, we 69 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: needed to have as sisters from Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. 70 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: This is the turning Room of mirrors. I'm Alan Lance Lesser, 71 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: Part six a golden year, So thanks Erica for finally 72 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 1: doing this. I feel like it's been pulling teeth to 73 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: get you to sit down and talk about some of 74 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: the stuff. And I'm not sure quite why, but I 75 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: feel like part of it is that you don't like 76 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: to talk about yourself too much. Yeah, I do feel 77 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: self conscious. You feel self conscious? How so? Yeah? I 78 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: mean not maybe not self conscious, but I mean honestly, like, yes, 79 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: I studied ballet when I was a kid, but I 80 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: didn't become a professional dancer. I didn't actually like fully 81 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: commit and go all the way, and so I just 82 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: feel like a fraud. I'm not the person who has 83 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: the most insight into this by like any stretch of 84 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: the imagination, So why would I be talking about my 85 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: own story or my own experience, Like there are so 86 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: many other people who are more important. So you basically 87 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: are experiencing imposter syndrome. I bet Also, if you had 88 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: become a professional, you still would be like, well, I 89 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: wasn't a principal, so my story doesn't matter, like you 90 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: would find any reason to not count your story as worthwhile. 91 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: And the fact is, like you devoted your life totally 92 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: to ballet for years. I know again I can just 93 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: feel you being uncomfortable talking about this. But anyway, do 94 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: you remember what was your favorite performance that you did? 95 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, but definitely one of the most meaningful 96 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: to me was the year I was Marie and the 97 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: Nutcracker or Clara. That was obviously a huge deal. It 98 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: was really special because I had looked up to these 99 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: dancers for years who played Murrie. So getting cast as Marie, 100 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like a dream come true. At age twelve, 101 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: you were twelve. Looking back, it's like twelve sounds so young. Yeah. Wow. 102 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: But by the time I was twelve, I was dancing 103 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: every day, and I was at a school that also 104 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: had this like youth ballet company essentially, and so we 105 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: were performing constantly. WHOA, what's weird is I almost feel 106 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: like I've blocked out some of these memories about how 107 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: much it was that was every day. Jeez. I mean, 108 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: it is true when you're dancing that seriously, you really 109 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: do feel like you have to dance every day to 110 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: keep up what you're doing and to be improving every day. 111 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: At that point, you're so in tune with your body that, yeah, 112 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: when you take a day off, you feel it. And 113 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: I remember one time I took like three days or 114 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: something off and I can't remember if I was sick 115 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: or if our family went out of town for a 116 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: few days, but I came back to class and I 117 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: actually thought I was having an okay class. I don't 118 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: think I felt like I was doing particularly badly. And 119 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: I was standing at the bar in the studio and 120 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: my teacher, who is this Russian teacher who I absolutely adored. 121 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: She had really high standards, which I loved, but at 122 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: one point and she like stopped and I could tell 123 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: she was upset, and she looked at me and she said, Erica, 124 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: Edica like she said it in her Russian accent, like 125 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: you miss one day, you notice the difference you missed 126 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: two two days. I noticed the difference you missed three days. 127 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: Everybody notices the difference. WHOA that makes her sound mean. 128 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: I actually adored her as a teacher, but that really 129 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: stuck with me, and it definitely made me feel like 130 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: it's just not worth it to take days off. How 131 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: did you feel in that moment? Probably embarrassed, but it 132 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: wasn't like a big out of the normal thing, like 133 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: you're used to being called out in class, You're used 134 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: to being corrected in front of everyone. But it was 135 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: more just this very memorable phrase that was a good 136 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: reminder of the importance of staying in class at home. 137 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: The dynamics of Erica's ballet, classroom casting, and technique, it 138 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: all became our form of childhood gossip. I loved being 139 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 1: in on it. I watched Erica constantly improved and grow 140 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: into this polished dancer, but she'd also come home every 141 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: night in physical pain. I can remember the constant bags 142 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: of frozen peas or footpaths or full salt baths. Sometimes 143 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: Erica would sit in the middle of our living room floor, 144 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: slowly stretching her aching muscles and tending to her wounds, 145 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: and sometimes she just collapse onto this big green recliner 146 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: and just lie there for hours. She always seemed to 147 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: be on the mend. When did you first start having injuries? 148 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: I think the first time I sprained my ankle, I 149 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: was five, And after that first sprain, I was always 150 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: aware of my ankle. I always had ankle problems. And 151 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: the thing is, when you injure your ankle, after it heals, 152 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: it is a little more susceptible to injury. And so 153 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: it just felt like a constant battle with my ankle. 154 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: And eventually it went from like having mild sprains from 155 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: time to time too. I did develop chronic tendonitis in 156 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: my achilles tendons, which I think is like super common, 157 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 1: but it was really painful and I was experiencing it 158 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: I think at a level that it wasn't like normal, 159 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: and that's what I started seeing a bunch of physical 160 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: therapists for for years. It was such a constant I mean, 161 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 1: you're always dancing through pain, but you kind of get 162 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: used to it. Always. Yeah, I mean to some extent. 163 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: I do remember one day in particular, it was like 164 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: a Saturday day of rehearsals. I can picture the point 165 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: whose I was wearing. It was a pair of grish goes. 166 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: They might have been like slightly too broken in at 167 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: that point, but we were preparing for multiple performances coming up. 168 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: I just remember that I was cast in a lot 169 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: of things. It was a really exciting set of castings 170 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: because I was kind of cast above my level. But 171 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: the result is that I like didn't get any time off. 172 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: Like I was just constantly rehearsing one after the next, 173 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: and my friends were getting little breaks and I just 174 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: like wasn't getting a break. And there was this one 175 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: piece where we're basically on point the whole time, Like 176 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: the whole thing is that we're burying across the floor 177 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: like the entire dance, so you're like literally never not 178 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: on point. And I had like so many blisters that day, 179 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: and I just was like, oh my god, I cannot 180 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: run this piece one more time, and that you'd be like, 181 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: let's run it again, and I'd just be like please. Now. 182 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,479 Speaker 1: I just remember thinking to myself, my god, this is insane, 183 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: But Also it was like so exhilarating because I felt 184 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: like such a professional because I just like was dancing 185 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: all day and you know, you feel important if you 186 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: like don't have time for breaks, and you do feel 187 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: like an adult. I mean, when you're making those types 188 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: of sacrifices where you're not hanging up with friends, you're 189 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: in the studio and you're dancing through pain, you feel 190 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: like a grown up. And it's partly because the instructor 191 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: to some extent, treats you like a grown up, Like 192 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: the expectations are so high you need to like put 193 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: on your adult behavior. Kind of that's what kids want. 194 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: They want to probably to a certain extent, they want, 195 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: like teachers to have high standards and high expectations or 196 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: to challenge them. Like I do think that that's so 197 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: empowering to not be seen as just like a kid 198 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: who's doing this for fun. It's like, no, take me seriously, 199 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: Like I wouldn't want any less. I would want to 200 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 1: be treated that way because I took it so seriously. 201 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: And also I don't want my fellow dancers slacking off either, 202 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: because we all want it to be the best it 203 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: can be. Erica really wanted to be the best she 204 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: could in every way, and I remember noticing that desire 205 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: shift to how she felt about her appearance. I want 206 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: to pause here because we're about to talk about topics 207 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: that could be really triggering and even unhealthy to listen to. 208 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: They have to do with body image and include some 209 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: really skewed and unhealthy thinking. And if you feel you 210 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: might be triggered by explicit discussions of body image or 211 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: eating disorders, you might want to stop listening here. There's 212 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: a reason search to suggest that hearing specifics about eating 213 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: disorders could contribute to actual symptoms. I loved so much 214 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: of my body when I was dancing, like I liked 215 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: my feet, I liked my legs. I liked the level 216 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: of hyper extension. I felt like it was a little 217 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: but not too much. I liked a lot of my shapes. 218 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: I loved how I looked in a lot of ways, 219 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: and I was looking at myself all the time. I 220 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: was proud of my body, except for the I wanted 221 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: to be thinner. I just I really wanted bones jutting out. 222 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: But like, where do you think that came from? Because 223 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: I don't feel like it came from you. I thought 224 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: I was too fat starting from age four. Geez, can 225 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: you tell me your first like, why do you say 226 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: age four? What's your first memory of that? I think 227 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: it was four. It could be that I'm not don't 228 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: have the age right. My first memory of feeling that 229 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: I was too fat was not in ballet class, but 230 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: I think it was influenced by dance. There was like 231 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: a stage where we would do cabarets in the summer 232 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: and things. I was on stage and I had I 233 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: was like kind of standing with a sway back. I 234 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: had more of a sway back because like a toddler, 235 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: and I was aware suddenly that my like that made 236 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: my stomach stick out. And that's my first, like very 237 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: concrete memory of wishing that my stomach were smaller, and 238 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: that never went away. I started dance classes when I 239 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: was three, and I mean, I think it's it's hard 240 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: to just stand in a leotard in front of a 241 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: mirror every day as a kid. Do you remember any 242 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: times when a teacher like specifically told you to lose 243 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: weight or implied it in some way. No, that's the thing. 244 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: I don't think I ever had a teacher say, Erica, 245 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: you need to lose weight. No, I think it's like 246 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: very clear that you want to be thin, Like no 247 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: one needs to say that explicitly in class. There was 248 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: just such an awareness that thinness was clearly important. And 249 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: I think sometimes teachers would tell stories about their own 250 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: training that were kind of intended to point out how 251 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: messed up something was, but also inevitably then communicated maybe 252 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: the messed up message to us unintentionally. So like I 253 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: remember one of my teachers who was from Ukraine and 254 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: she'd been trained in Russian schools. She would tell stories 255 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: that a teacher would go and pinch your back, and 256 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: if they could pinch your back and get any kind 257 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: of like fat in the pinch, the teacher would say, oh, 258 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: I see, even having a little too much milk in 259 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: other words, like drinking milk was making them fat. But 260 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I guess I don't want any 261 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,479 Speaker 1: pinchable fat in my back. She also would tell us 262 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: stories about how Russian schools worked at the time. You know, 263 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: you're a little girl between age six and ten. I 264 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: don't know the exact age, but if you want to 265 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: get into a Russian school, you go in. You're auditioning. 266 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: At one point, you take off your clothes you're naked, 267 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: I think for the audition often your topless as a 268 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: little girl. And then you also have like a medical 269 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: examination where they measure your body. They might even like 270 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: look at your parents to see how you're likely to 271 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: develop physically, basically saying we only want to admit people 272 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: into our school who have the exact proportions and ballet 273 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 1: body that we're looking for. Yeah, you're also thinking, you 274 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: know what I cut it in Russia. I don't know. 275 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: I think I remember the teacher that you're talking about, 276 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: and she was I think, amazing in a lot of ways. 277 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: But like also, I feel like to a certain degree, 278 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: there's an element of psychological breeding with that by just 279 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: saying like, oh, listen to how bad I had it, 280 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: or the types of disparaging comments I received. These other 281 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: comments I'm making are nothing compared to that. Yeah, the 282 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: messaging is, oh wow, look how intense that is over 283 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: in Russia, wasn't it? Nicely? Don't do that here? But 284 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: now I have these ideas that I'm supposed to have 285 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: certain measurements in order to be the best ballerina. Now 286 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: I'm aware of that, even if that wasn't the intention. 287 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: I do remember one time you walked in because you 288 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: were always there because you're always having to like with 289 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: mom as she's like driving me to class and stuff. 290 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: But you walked in, and I think she was like, oh, 291 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: you you would be accepted. You ailin? Yeah, you know. 292 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: I even remember she had me do first position and 293 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: she like, I'm not even her student, and she took 294 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: her hands and put them on my ankles and crept 295 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: her hands all the way up to my up my 296 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 1: legs to my hips, feeling my turnout wow, and literally 297 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: put her hands all over my legs up to like 298 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 1: my butt, and then was like, yes, you would be 299 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: accepted or something. And I felt so good at the 300 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: time because I mean like I was even totally drenched 301 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: in ballet culture at this point, because I was, you know, 302 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: just watching you all the time. Yeah, And then I 303 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: feel like you were like, oh, what the heck, why 304 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: didn't she say that about me? Yeah? Definitely, every day 305 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: I saw Erica striving for some image of perfection. I 306 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: remember when she got obsessed with the idea that her 307 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: ponytail should be smooth with no bumps. She'd spend what 308 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: felt like forever stuck in a loop slicking her hair back. 309 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: Then checking it for bombs, taking it out, and starting 310 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: all over again. I'd watch her perform these rituals in 311 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: the mirror, the mirrors at home and in the ballet 312 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: studio became a decider of Erica's self worth. There are 313 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: a lot of like body markers, body checking, like just 314 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: things that I think are probably potentially super triggering for people. 315 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, I remember, like we shared a bathroom and 316 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: you just had certain rituals of checking yourself in the 317 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: mirror in certain ways that you would do almost like 318 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: repetitively padding certain parts of your body. I would like 319 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: turn and profile to the mirror. I'd like go one 320 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: way and then the other, and I would look at 321 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 1: my profile, see how then I was. I'd put one 322 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: hand in front of my stomach and one hand on 323 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: my back and go tap tap the other side, tap tap, 324 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: like how then are we today? Yeah? And then you would, 325 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: you know, do that regularly throughout the week, throughout the day. 326 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: I have a memory or two of you actually like 327 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: teaching me the body checking. Not oh God, no, that 328 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: sounds bad, not in like a judgmental god or no. 329 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: I was more like curious, like I would ask you explicitly, 330 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: like what are you doing or like what is that 331 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: supposed to do? What you're doing right there, that specific thing, 332 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: and then you'd be like, oh, well, I just go 333 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: like this and like that to check this, and I 334 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: think it helps with this. And like being a younger sister, 335 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: you know, I kind of looked up to you and 336 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: would almost like you know, be like oh wow. And 337 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: then you had lots of rules about when you could eat. 338 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: And again these were like also explicit things that we 339 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: talked about and that you'd be like, I've heard that 340 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: if you don't eat after X time, it like really 341 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: helps for this for that reason, which I mean didn't 342 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: even really make sense. But my point is ballet had 343 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: permeated our family culture or our family Yeah, and so 344 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: talking about that stuff, even explicitly, it was just like 345 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: oh interesting, got to try that accepted. Yeah. I also 346 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: think there was a lot less awareness of eating disorders 347 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: and what that meant at the time. Yeah, I mean 348 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: we had heard of eating disorders before, but we thought 349 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: like the more extreme versions when someone's being hospitalized for 350 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: an eating disorder. Yeah, at the time, we thought it 351 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: was anorexia or bolimia. And because Alan, you, like you 352 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: were home from summer break or something. In college, you 353 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: were researching eating disorders and you were like, oh, yeah, Erica, 354 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: you had an eating disorder or you had a disordered 355 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: eating of some kind. I was like what, and you 356 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: listed a bunch of things, and I remember you explaining 357 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: what body checking was. And I actively did not want 358 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: an eating disorder, and I knew how dangerous they could be, 359 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: and I was very aware of the dangers of it, 360 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: but I definitely didn't restrict food as much as I 361 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: wanted to be able to restrict food. And then I 362 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: remember with bolimia, like also I did not want bulimia, 363 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: but I did try to throw up on multiple occasions, 364 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: and I just like literally couldn't do it physically. And 365 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: that was probably a really good thing because I could 366 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: see myself getting into that back then. But one year 367 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: I ended up homeschooling because my dance schedule at that 368 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: particular ballet school was so intense that like, I was 369 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: missing a lot of school. During that time, I got 370 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: really into like trying certain foods. So for a while 371 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: I was really into grape fruit and grape nuts, which 372 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: I also thought was funny because it was like the 373 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: word great and both of these foods, and like I 374 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: would eat like a late breakfast because I was homeschool 375 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: so I could do this. I would eat late breakfast 376 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: of like half a grapefruit and some grape nuts and 377 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: then some other snack or food and then you know, 378 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: not eat after my allotted hour and be done eating 379 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: for the day. Wow. And that year, I don't think 380 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: I really noticed it, but I guess I must have 381 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,479 Speaker 1: lost a lot of weight. I remember at the end 382 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: of the year, I was like at the bar next 383 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: to the mirror. We wasn't during class. It was like 384 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: maybe people we're putting their point shoes on or something. 385 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: My teacher said Erica, like, I've noticed your leotards. Look 386 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: your leotard's loose. Your leotard's loose on you. You're looking 387 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: good or something like that, jeez, basically complimenting me that 388 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: my leotard, which I had worn, you know, regularly throughout 389 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: the year, was now loose on me. And I felt 390 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: so good when she said that. Oh my god, Oh 391 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: I was so happy. I was so happy. Around this time, 392 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: I remember how ballet started monopolizing our family life, either 393 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: because Erica wasn't around as much or just because we 394 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: were spending so much time doing things for ballet. We'd 395 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: spend time in the Point shoe store while Erica tried 396 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: on shoes, and our mom and I would help se 397 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: on ribbons. We'd burn the edges with a lit match 398 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: so they wouldn't fray. We'd go to the mall and 399 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: purchase expensive hair pieces or stage makeup that the school requested. 400 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: Then there were the countless car rides and waiting for 401 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: class to be over. I'd write in my childhood diary 402 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: how I missed her, and I just remember Erica around then. 403 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: She seemed down. She didn't have time for hangouts or sleepovers, 404 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: and no matter how she seemed to perform in class 405 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: or on stage, she was always stuck in this same loop. 406 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,719 Speaker 1: Just how much I hated my body and all of 407 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: the emotional consternation around that, and like constant obsession with that, 408 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: It was very tiring. So I was just really knotted 409 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: up inside that year because I just wanted my bones 410 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: to jut out. That's what I wanted. I wanted to 411 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: be bony. But I remember like I'd be like crying 412 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: at home late night. I'd be home from ballet and crying, 413 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: And I remember one night I was crying, and like 414 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: mom and Dad were on the couch and I was 415 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: on the floor, and I was telling them that I 416 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: needed to be thinner, and they were I think they 417 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: were just like, what, like, we don't know what to do. 418 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 1: And I think around that time they actually went to 419 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: the head of the school and said, like, you know, 420 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 1: they have parent teacher conferences and they said, you know, 421 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: one of Erica's concerns is that she's worried about being 422 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: thin enough. And you know, really, to the head teacher's credit, 423 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: she said, no, no, she's fine. She doesn't need to 424 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: worry about that. All of the reassurances I needed and 425 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: Mom and Dad passed that on to me, which did 426 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: mean a lot because she had been a principal with ABT. 427 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: She you know, she knew what she was talking about, 428 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: but I think it caused so much emotional weight that 429 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: increased just the general turmoil around this decision of should 430 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: I keep dancing or should I allow myself to do 431 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: some of the other things I love as well. One year, 432 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: Erica got into a prestigious pre professional summer intensive for ballet. 433 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: With this type of program, she'd spend the summer away 434 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: from home, living in a dorm training in hopes of 435 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: eventually joining a company. It should have been caused for celebration, 436 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: but for some reason, Erica just felt dread. I had 437 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: been questioning whether this was the right path for me already, 438 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: and there was a period where I was crying, like 439 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: almost nightly about it. I just felt so torn in 440 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: different directions. I just wasn't ready to give up my 441 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: whole self to it. I've always had a lot of interests, 442 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: too many interests, and ballet had become my whole life. 443 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: But it sort of had become my whole life out 444 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: of default because it required that I was considering quitting 445 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: high school and just focusing on dance. And I loved 446 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: school Alan you know, I was like a total nerd, 447 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: and you know, I was in a lot of pain 448 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the time with my multiple injuries. Meanwhile, 449 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: Erica spent a lot of time in physical therapy. One day, 450 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: she went in for routine visit to deal with one 451 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: of her many chronic injuries, and so I remember that 452 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: day in the physical therapist office, we were in like 453 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: a separate room. So usually doing exercises, we'd be in 454 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: this sort of main room where a lot of people 455 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: there were machines, but for some reason we went into 456 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,239 Speaker 1: this other, smaller office room off of the main room, 457 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: and that's when she said, you know, honestly, I'm not 458 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: seeing the improvement that we want, and you're not seeing 459 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: the improvement that we want. And really to get over this, 460 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: I think you're going to need to take three months off, 461 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: take the summer off. I felt like I couldn't miss 462 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: two days, and then she says, take three months off. 463 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: But as soon as she said that, I felt relief. 464 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: I didn't feel sad. I was I was like, yeay, 465 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: I was happy because I instantly knew I was never 466 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: going back and I never did. Whoa did you never 467 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: even go back to class? Like what happened there? I 468 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: think I went back. I went back to one class. 469 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm crying. I think it just 470 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,479 Speaker 1: meant a lot to me at the time, and it 471 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: was like one of the hardest decisions I ever made. 472 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm crying about this, but I just like, 473 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: I really loved it so much. Yeah you did, and 474 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: it is hard to know that, Um, it feels like 475 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: you're giving it up permanently because you can't like go 476 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: back to that level. But I remember I I went 477 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: back to one last class. I think it was a 478 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: weird class because it was post the school term and 479 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: before the summer intensive starts, and so it was like 480 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: a weird in betweeen limbo classes. How it felt. It 481 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: felt less serious or just slightly less formal, and it 482 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: was a modern class, and I just danced my heart 483 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: out and I had so much fun, and I felt 484 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: so free in the movement. I think maybe also because 485 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: it was modern and we had these combinations across the 486 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: floor that we're just you're jumping in like all directions 487 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: and turning in the air, and I just felt so free. 488 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: It felt so exhilarating. And I remember after the class 489 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: one of my ballet teachers had been watching it for 490 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: some reason, which never happens. And it was one of 491 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: the teachers who's really she's extremely straightforward, doesn't compliment you often, 492 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: can be very harsh, would make people cry in class. 493 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: And what did she say? I used to remember the 494 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: word so well, but essentially she said, I've never seen 495 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: you dance like that, and she gave me this look. Basically, 496 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: what she was communicating to me was you have something 497 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: like you have it like that was amazing, wow, And 498 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: it's like I really was able to put myself in 499 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: it in a way I never had. And I thanked 500 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: her and I felt totally. I felt so free. As 501 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: I walked out that door. I knew I was never 502 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: going back. I wasn't planning to take classes of any 503 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: kind because it was an all or nothing. It was 504 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: all or nothing. I wasn't going to watch my body 505 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: slowly degrade in the mirror. I wasn't going to do that. 506 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: So I was not going back. I felt good about it, 507 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: but it is hard to hear as you're leaving, you know, 508 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: someone communicating like what you're capable of if you decide 509 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: to stay. She didn't know I was leaving either. I 510 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 1: hadn't told anyone. I hadn't told my teachers, I didn't 511 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: tell my classmates. I basically he left and ever went back, 512 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:06,399 Speaker 1: and I didn't say goodbye. I didn't say goodbye to anyone. Why. 513 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just curious because I guess I 514 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: don't even know, and maybe you don't know exactly why. 515 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: But like when you just started crying, like what were 516 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: you thinking? Why? What brought that out? I think I 517 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: just really loved to dance. I did. I did love 518 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: it more than anything. Um, I do think it was 519 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: a natural part of me and I and the reality 520 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: is I was like I it really did come from me, 521 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: like I do think that, you know, practically before I 522 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: could walk, I wanted to dance. It made me feel 523 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: connected with music. And I always used to say I 524 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: dance because when I dance, I am the music and 525 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: there's just nothing that feels as amazing as that. And 526 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: so at the time it felt like the biggest, most 527 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: important decision of my life, and it was. It was 528 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: the most central decision at that time for me. But 529 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: this all sounds so overdramatic for like a fifteen year old, 530 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: sixteen year old or whatever I was. But why was 531 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: I crying just now? I think I dismissed it. I 532 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: wish I hadn't said all or nothing, Like I wish 533 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: I had just kept taking a few classes, not in 534 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: the pre professional program and the open division. I think 535 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: it would have been too hard at the time, But 536 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: I wish I had done that. I wonder though, if 537 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: you could have you know, Yeah, I feel like in 538 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: your particular situation, like it was too hard, Like sometimes 539 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,439 Speaker 1: when you have like a breakup or something. You need 540 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 1: to have time where you're not communicating. Otherwise it's just 541 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: way too complicated. Yeah, you're right, that's totally what it was. 542 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: It was like a breakup. It was really like a divorce, 543 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: so from like a really potentially even toxic relationship, just 544 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: because it was all encompassing for you. Yeah, And I 545 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: do think, like I even get emotional seeing you get 546 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: emotional because I know you so well. And maybe this 547 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: is horrible to say, but I feel like, in some 548 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: ways that was your great love and I don't know 549 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: if you've ever found that in anything else. And I 550 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: think that's why you're crying. Yeah, But the problem is 551 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: that even though maybe that was your great love, the 552 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: cost was too high. Yeah. When I look at my 553 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: sister now, I see a confident woman. She's full of 554 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 1: life and not afraid to say what she thinks. But 555 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: that took time. For months, maybe even years, after Erica 556 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: left ballet, she often had a more quiet demeanor. She 557 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,720 Speaker 1: kept the slicked back hair, She seemed to trust others 558 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: more than herself. The other thing I wanted to say is, 559 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: like I said that thing about it was your one love, 560 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: But I think that's the way you perceive it. Yeah, 561 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: you're right. Ultimately ballet wasn't enough for me, And that 562 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: doesn't mean ballet isn't enough for other people, But it 563 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: just wasn't enough for me to give up everything else. 564 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm not sure what came first, because I started 565 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: dancing when I was three years old? So what is me? 566 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 1: Because I'm me? And what is me because of ballet? 567 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: I do think ballet does instill this like rigorous, constant 568 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: self criticism where that is your job, and maybe trusting 569 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: how others see you as well more than how you 570 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: even see yourself at times. Actually, now that I'm saying this, 571 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: it kind of reminds me of what Wilhelmina Frankfurt told us. 572 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: Balanchie used to say, you can't see you, only I 573 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: can see you. If that's the messaging you're getting in 574 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: your training, you do learn to trust someone else's perception 575 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: of you more than your perception of yourself. It's funny 576 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: to think how the culture of ballet that's been passed 577 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 1: down for generations effects not only the professional dancers, but 578 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: the thousands and thousands of little children who learn this 579 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: art form. How many people do you know who like 580 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: danced as a kid, and how many of them may 581 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: have been deeply affected by this culture. It's like all 582 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: these years you're learning to reflect back what other people want, 583 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: and you're learning to look at your reflection and see 584 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: what's wrong with it. All those hours you spend in 585 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: the studio, all of those hours you spend in that 586 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: room of mirrors, It's like that room of mirrors is 587 00:40:40,520 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: still in your brain, sticks with you next time on 588 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: The Turning? Who decided this? Who decided that you have 589 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: to have twig like arms or legs? Did the skies 590 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: open up and the ballet god said? This is Howard 591 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: host to beat? No, it's just how we've all been programmed. 592 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 1: The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. 593 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: It's written and produced by Erica Lance and Me. Our 594 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed by 595 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: James Trout. Jessica Carissa is our assistant producer. Andrea Swahe 596 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: is our digital producer. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. 597 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are John Paratti and Jessica Alpert at 598 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: Rococo Punch, and Katrina Norville and Nikki e Tour at 599 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: iHeart podcasts. For photos and more details on the series, 600 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can 601 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: reach out via email The Turning at Rococo punch dot com. 602 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: I'm Alan Lance Lesser. Thanks for listening.