WEBVTT - Matt Simon on the Plastics Crisis 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.640 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:10.880 Thing from iHeart Radio. It is found everywhere on Earth, 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:13.760 from the peak of Mount Everest to the bottom of 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.520 the ocean. It's in our drinking water and even inside 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:23.759 our own bodies. What is this omnipressent substance? Plastic? Plastic 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.360 has infiltrated our lives to such a degree that it's 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.800 almost impossible to live a day without encountering it. My 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:36.159 guest today is an expert on this topic. Matt Simon 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.920 is a science journalist and author of A Poison Like 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:45.000 no Other, How Microplastics Corrupted Our Planet and Our Bodies. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.600 Matt Simon previously worked as a staff writer for Wired 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:54.040 and currently serves as senior writer at Grist, a nonprofit 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:59.120 media organization focused on climate solutions. In his book, Simon 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:03.880 estimates that humans have produced more than eighteen trillion pounds 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:08.080 of plastic, twice the weight of all the animals on Earth. 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.560 He believes we are in a plastic crisis. I wanted 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.240 Simon to begin by distinguishing some terms that had been 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:21.800 floating around, including the difference between a microplastic and a nanoplastic. 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:24.720 Well, we could actually start at macroplastics, the big stuff 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:26.800 bottles and bags that we know of that are floating 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.600 around on the ocean. We're all aware. Microplastics are defined 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.360 as bits that are smaller than five millimeters, which is 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:34.040 about the width of a pencil eraser. It's a good 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.800 way to think of us. You can see some microplastics 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:39.319 just by the naked eye, but these do get down 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:41.640 to the nanoscale as you mentioned here, which is there's 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.640 some debate in the scientific community as to the threshold there, 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.640 but usually around a microns, which is a millionth of 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.560 a meter. These things are imperceptibly obviously tiny to the 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.560 human eye, but scientists are getting much better at detecting 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.200 them in the environment, and they're finding truly astonishing numbers 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:02.040 of nanoplastics, far more than actually microplastics. It's just that 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.680 it's very difficult and expensive to test for an inmplan. 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:10.359 To nanoplastics, are they another stage of microplastics to macroplastics 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.840 become nanoplastics and degrade down to that smaller level. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.200 Yep, any bottle or bag that you see out there 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.160 is it's pre microplastic and pre nanoplastic, which is a 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.240 good way to think of it is it's going to 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.480 break down over time into these smaller bits microplastics and 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.720 over time into smaller, smaller bits than nanoplastics, but it 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.919 never ever goes away. It probably actually reaches this sort 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.880 of equilibrium at some size in that nanoscale where it's 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.600 no longer subjected to the forces of inbrasion. So it 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.880 just kind of exists like that for eternity. Maybe we 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.080 don't know, But that's the really scary thing here is 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.079 that we have a lot of that out there and 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.240 the environment, and it could be permanent. 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.840 Right for those to the extent that you can speak 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:56.079 about this the history of plastic. Very often a product 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.960 will be developed because of a failed or a born 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:05.680 other product. So viagra comes from tests with like artificial 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.400 sweetener or something, and they noticed that all the mice 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:12.440 are really very very amorous, and they decide that they 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:14.440 have a product as a result of that. That's kind 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.200 of insane. But in terms of plastic, the roots of 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.320 us are in the petroleum industry, correct, correct, right, And 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.560 what were the beginnings of that plastic was meant to 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:25.760 be what to be used where. 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.000 It's actually a very fascinating story. So Back in the 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:33.560 late eighteen hundreds, billiards was becoming increasingly popular in America. Unfortunately, 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.680 those balls were made out of ivory elephant tusks, obviously 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.640 in short supply if you keep killing elephants to play billiards. 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:43.320 There was a very famous billiards player who put out 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:47.480 a call for alternatives. Some scientists, please invent some sort 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.960 of synthetic material that can replace ivory in these balls, 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.320 so we can switch to that, maybe save a few 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.680 elephants in the process. But it was more like, here's 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:57.600 you put up ten thousand dollars, which was a lot 0:03:57.600 --> 0:03:58.200 of money, and the. 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.760 Elephants that play billiards were especially they. 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.960 Were loving this. They were eating it up. So that 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:08.440 actually led to the first mass producible plastic and that 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.400 actually just kind of shifted. As we got closer and 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.240 closer to World War Two, more and more materials were 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:17.520 starting to be replaced by synthetic alternatives in plastic. So 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.279 plexiglass was plastic in it nylon for parachutes in World 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.279 War Two. That's a synthetic material. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.680 It wasn't originally just a military application. It was the 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:28.080 billiard game. 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:29.040 It was billiards. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.280 Oh did he get to manufacture. 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.880 This actually, so Mina saying that he actually never coughed 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.920 up that money. But the company that started producing this 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.040 first mass producible plastic, there was a version of it 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.200 previously that nobody figured out how to mass produce, but 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.640 they concocted this kind of early plastic. It was actually 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.640 really funny. There was there's ingredients cent that were quite flammable, 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.720 so you would have sometimes in these billiard games they'd 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:53.880 hit the ball hard enough and it would pop. It 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.960 would explode like gunpowder. So it wasn't a perfect alternative 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.680 to elephant to us by any that sound, but it 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:02.880 was like, that's how weird is it that we are 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.919 in the catastrophe and the emergency that we are in 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.720 right now because of plastic pollution because there needed to 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.200 be an alternative to billiard balls made out of elephant ivory? 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.479 Now, what is it that people discover in the earliest 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:20.720 stage just the petroleum yields plastic? Were they working on 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:22.760 something else with petroleum and then all a sudden they 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.479 realized that it you boiled it, then you let it 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.359 sit in the pot, and that turned to this blob 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:31.400 of future billiard balls. Like, how was it that petroleum 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:32.680 was the source of plastic. 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.000 So any plastic at its core is a chain of carbon, 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.880 just a bunch of carbon chained together into this really 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:45.520 strong material. That's what makes plastic so durables, carbon stuck together. Obviously, 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.960 fossil fuels are a source of carbon. So as you 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:50.640 know World War two was kicking off, we were also 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.200 getting much deeper into fossil fuel production for any number 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.160 of military uses, but also burgeoning car culture here in 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:01.000 the United States. So the petrochemical industry taking off at 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.360 this period realized that we could take some of these 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:08.200 byproducts from fuel production and turn them into petrochemicals, which 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.040 we then turn into plastics, And ever since then, plastics 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.359 and climate change have been just very directly linked. This 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.800 is two sides of the same coin, which makes it 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.560 a much more difficult problem to tackle because of the 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.680 fossil fuel interest in this country. But this whole time, 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:25.920 it's carbon. It just comes right down a carbon. There's 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.320 a bunch of chemicals added to make a plastic a plastic, 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:32.240 to make it more waterproof or clear clear, to make 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.240 it more stretchy, durable, that sort of thing, But at 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.600 its core, it's carbon. You actually make plastics bioplastics out 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.720 of carbon taken from plants. But that's problematic in its 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:43.360 own right. As I talked about in the book. 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.120 When I think back to my childhood, we had a 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.040 milk man and he delivered milk in a truck and 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:53.000 put a metal container on your front porch with glass 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.159 bottles of milk every day or every other day. And 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.320 then you turn around at some point and everything is 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:04.279 inside a plast container. Yes. Now, when a product is 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.880 inside a plastic container, particularly over a long period of time, 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:13.960 do some of the chemicals that are kept inside these 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.880 do they interact with the inside walls of the plastic 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.040 and there's plastic released and in the product. 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.840 Yeah, So this is known as leeching in the industry. 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:28.440 So you have a bottle of water, There have been 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:30.520 a number of studies that have actually quantified the amount 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.560 of microplastics in that water, which is a lot much 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.720 more so than you get in the tap water that 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.640 I'm drinking here out of a glass container right now. 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.360 But you also seem to have the leaching of these 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:46.400 chemical components in plastics into both liquids through bottles, but 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.400 also our food that's all wrapped in single use plastic. 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:51.960 The very important study came out last year of the 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:54.640 year before looked at a particular class of chemicals called 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.640 thalates in plastics, and they look through people's blood samples 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.400 and then looked at their health issues use. And they estimated, 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.960 at a very conservative level that these thalites could be 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.600 responsible for up to one hundred thousand premature deaths in 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:11.160 the United States each year. And that's a very conservative estimate. 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.280 They cannot say at the moment how those salites are 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.440 getting from plastic into those bodies, Like maybe it was 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:21.680 partly microplastics and nanoplastics, Maybe it was these chemicals leaching 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.679 into foods or liquids that are in contact with single 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.200 use plastic. They're not sure yet, but we have a 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.680 growing body of evidence right now that there are a 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.200 number of chemicals and plastics that are for sure terrible 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:32.959 for human health. 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.840 And again I'm thinking, like, if I'm spraying something on 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:41.520 a countertop to clean the countertop, has plastic leeched inside 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.240 that bottle into the product that I'm spraying, Yes, because 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.880 that's what I was going to assume. It's got to 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.079 be the case that this stuff can't stay on either 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:55.080 side of some biochemical wall for very long. 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.120 It gets everywhere, And I like to have people think 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:02.160 about glitter. Glitter is a microplastic. It's little pieces of 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:03.200 colorful plastic. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.319 Think of how I see glitter. 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.000 It drives me crazy. I mean greeting cards. Stop it. 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.920 So think about glitter. Think of all the nooks and 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.200 crannies that glitter is so easily gets into. That is 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.720 how microplastics behave in the human home and in the environment. 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.880 It gets absolutely everywhere. These things are tiny. First of all, 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.120 plastic bites nature is a very light material, so it 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.600 very easily takes the air. If you look through your 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:30.400 window and see the sunlight coming through, and you can 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:33.600 sometimes see little floating bits of seems like fibers, those 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.439 are most likely microplastics from your clothing. So it's it's 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.000 like glitter. It gets everywhere, and unfortunately, like glitter, it's 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:42.520 hard to get people to stop using it. 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.240 What's of the most common type of clothing like obviously 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.520 all of us have been made aware that the stain 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:53.640 guard coating on sofas we have the coated stuff and 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:57.520 that fiber the coating wears off. I was told the 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:02.160 plastic comes off, the microplast takes literally feather off of 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.640 or just acterior rate off of the couch. Where did 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.000 the plastics come off of? What clothing? 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:10.760 This is one of the rather sneaky ways that plastics 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.360 have infiltrated our lives in recent decades that we just 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.520 weren't aware of. I do not think that most people 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.160 realize that two thirds of clothing now is made out 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:22.200 of synthetic fibers like polyester or nylon, that is plastic 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.120 that's made out of fossil fuels. There was a study 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.360 that actually found that just by walking around as a 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.040 human being wearing these synthetic clothes, you might shed a 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.000 billion fibers a year. A lot of that is settling 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.320 on the floor of your home, but also taking to 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:40.000 the air. Your couch is probably made out of synthetic fiber, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.760 unless it's pure cotton, which is unlikely carpeting is made. 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:44.880 I don't have to worry about. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.640 So that's the issue, like right and so, like right now, 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.480 I think I'm wearing a sweat. I think it's wool. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.000 I'm not sure, but even natural fibers now are oftentimes 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.760 coated in plastic because it makes them waterproof. So we 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.720 have like you're not safe from any sort of clothing. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.199 Some I think cotton might be pure cotton, but there's 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.480 a high chance of it actually having plastic associated with it. 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.240 Carpets made out of synthetic fibers, hardwood floors most of 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.080 the time now are made out of plastics like laminate 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:16.199 and vinyl, that sort of thing. Everything in the home 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.880 is basically made out of plastic, and that is why 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.680 scientists have been founding really stunning numbers of microplastic in 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.199 the home, probably about six times the amount of microplastic 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.880 in indoor air as an outdoor air. So we are, 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:31.400 by one cognition. 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.240 Those air filters on all the time in our house. 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:35.640 Yeah, good idea. I don't want to ruin that for 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:37.439 you as well. But there was a study that found 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.400 that those filters capture some microplastics, but because they're made 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.679 out of plastic themselves also produced plastic. But it's probably 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:45.440 better than them. It's probably yeah, it's probably better than 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:46.920 not that break even. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.120 Now we got introduced to Jan Schlickman, who was the 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.920 protagonist of Jonathan Harr's book, a civil action that was 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.960 made into the film with Travolta, where they came and 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:02.200 basically said that these children who were in this leukemia 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:06.880 cluster were more likely killed and given leukemia by breathing 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.280 in this contaminated word in the shower was going into 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.760 their lungs, which were more sensitive. And I'm wondering is 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.079 that true. Is that something we need to be concerned 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.720 about in our world now where the water itself is 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:20.000 contaminated with plastic. 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.600 This is the frontier in microplastic science right now, is 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.320 that we have good qualifications of where this stuff is 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.360 a lot of the places in the environment, I should 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.040 say every place in the environment we have microplastics. There's 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.240 a lot of in the human home. We are inhaling, 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:37.400 by one calculation, seven thousand microfibers a day. And when 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.720 you think about children, they are spending a lot of 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.920 their time on the ground crawling around. There have been 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.040 a number of sites that consistently come up with the 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.640 same figures that there's probably hundreds of thousands of fibers 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.680 settling on the average living room floor each day, and 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:56.000 we don't want children trapesing through that. Children are also 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.600 putting a lot of things in their mouths, plastic toys. 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.280 The huge source of microplastics into children's bodies is that 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.800 when you prepare infant formula in a plastic bottle with warm, 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:14.040 hot water, that has been shown to produce millions of microplastic. Yeah, 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.520 it's and that's so important is that you should never, 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:21.280 under any circumstances prepare things that are warm or hot 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:22.000 in plastic. 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:23.959 Well, the cups we serve them, they're drinks. 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.319 This bamboo great, Yeah, dude, Like, don't freeze plastic even 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.600 unfortunately that that kind of cuts into frozen foods. 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:31.080 Don't. 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.640 So these are the things that really these are the 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.480 things that tear apart microplastics from these macroplastics. The things 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.920 that break down plastically. The environment is UV bombardment. It 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.000 breaks apart the bonds in that plastic, but also freezing 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.720 and heating plastics are very tough, but it does break 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.199 apart these ways over time. So when we're thinking about 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.679 the exposure that humans have, and especially children, we need 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.880 to consider. Inhalation is probably the major one, just because 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.240 there's so much an indoor air. We're drinking a lot 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.840 of it. Because I'm in San Francisco, we get water 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.160 from hetch Hetchy. It is not filtered on our way 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.120 to our tasks because it's such pure water. But there's 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.640 so much microplastic falling out of the sky that every 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.360 water source is good. That's everywhere, it's everywhere, and it's 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:19.960 like even underground water sources, they're finding microplastics have seeped 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:24.680 through the dirt into these aquifers. There is no escaping them. 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.600 We are now at this frontier where we know that 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.560 we're exposed. We don't know how much microplastic. Is too 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.960 much microplastic to have in the body. Obviously no particulate 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.320 matter is good to have in the lungs, but we 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:40.080 desperately need to know, especially for children, is there too 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.920 much microplastic to have in the body. It's not gonna 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.280 be good, Like there's no good ways for this to go, 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:48.760 but how bad could it potentially be. 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:53.880 There's no way that micro or for that matter, nanoplastics 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:57.720 can be removed, for example, like on a centrifugal device, 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.600 meaning is there any way to get rid of it 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:00.440 out of water? 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.960 There are some early studies into ways that you can 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.640 do really precise filtration. So if you think about there's 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.240 waste to recycle waste water actually by passing it through 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.160 very fine membranes and the water that comes out of 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.240 it is actually so pure that they have to add 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.920 minerals back into it. It actually does terrible things for 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.560 the human body. So that would remove microplastics for sure. 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.600 That's just very expensive to do. That's that's what desalination does, 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.280 and that's why desalination is so expensive. You could do 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.760 that for microplastics, but it's just the issue is, like 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.360 I'm drinking water out of this cup right now, there 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.240 are microplastics falling into the water right now. So even 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.840 if it's filter that clear, Yeah, even if we're being bombarded. 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.920 By nanoplastics and microplasics while we're doing this show. 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.120 Yes, not to freak you out. Just because we can't 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.080 see it doesn't mean it's not there. You can actually 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:50.960 see some of these microplastics, they're big enough, but there's 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.280 so many more in the nanoscale that we cannot see, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.080 and we know almost nothing about what this means for 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:57.720 human health. 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:06.680 Journalist Matt Simon. If you enjoy conversations on the fate 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.760 of municipal trash and recycling, check out my episode with 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.840 former New York City Deputy Commissioner of Wastewater Treatment Pam 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:20.080 Alardo and New York City's first recycling, z are Ron Gonan. 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.360 This is the fascinating world of biology. We use a 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.640 community of bacteria that actually digests the suspended organic material 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.880 and clean the water via that method, and from there 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:33.600 it goes to another settling tank where we settle out 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.640 the biomass that just consumed all this organic matter. But 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.240 the water that comes out of the final settling tank 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.720 gets disinfection basically household bleached to take any particular pathogens out, 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.280 and that gets either discharged to receiving waters or in 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.880 some cases, in some cities, they're able to polish a 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:50.680 little bit more, ease it for irrigation purposes. 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.560 To hear more of my conversation with Pam Alardo and 0:16:55.680 --> 0:17:00.160 Ron Goonan, go to Here's the Thing dot Org to 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.720 the break, Matt Simon shares what he believes is the 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:18.840 only solution to the plastic crisis. I'm Alec Baldwin and 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.439 you're listening to Here's the Thing. Matt Simon writes in 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.520 a poison like no other, that the vast majority of 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.119 plastic produced on the planet becomes waste, ending up in 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:34.199 our landfills or our water. I wanted his perspective on 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.320 the possibility of biodegradable plastics. 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:42.720 Videgradable is a sticky term without a really agreed upon definition. 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.960 Videgradable basically means it breaks down faster. So you can 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.240 think of like a composting bag. You compost in, you 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.760 throw it out. That is a plastic. Still it's meant 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:56.840 to degrade under certain conditions. So that's in a composing 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.639 facility where the temperatures are very high for a long 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:00.400 perd that's not. 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.560 Made of a vegetable product, or it can. It can. 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.680 It can be made like the carbon can come from 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.520 plants that be a bio based plastic, but it's still 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.720 mixing with all kinds of other petrochemicals, and yeah, it 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:11.479 makes it a plastic. 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.879 Noting that is just absent petrochemical. 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.399 Sadly of plastic as we know it is a carbon 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.679 typically comes from car from the carbon from fossil fuels, 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.320 but also all the other petrochemicals that make a plastical plastic, 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:28.600 that make it tough, that make it durable, that make 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.960 it light, those are made from from fossil fuels as well. 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.120 So you can have a bioplastic it's made from corn fantastic, 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.199 except to actually scale that up if you were to 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:42.760 replace all conventional plastics with bioplastics, would require an enormous 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.399 amount of land, would come with just an enormous amount 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.320 of water use and emissions. So it's problematic in its 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.880 own right. So biodegradable theoretically means that it breaks down 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.960 faster in a composting facility. Unfortunately, if those bags are 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:57.480 breaking down in that comp. 0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:58.800 Just plastic broken down. 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.199 The plastic bag just spread out on a field in 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:06.600 its deconstructed form, it's glitter. It's glitter. But if you 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.959 have that same bag that escapes into the ocean, for example, 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.200 that isn't an environment that is not meant to break down, 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:14.919 and it was designed to break down under high temperatures 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.800 mixed in with all this organic matter. And they've done 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.639 studies that have they they've set these bags in ocean 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.840 water for years at a time and found that it 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.399 just doesn't break down. They bury it, it just doesn't 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:30.160 break down. So it's like usually biodegradable for a specific 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.240 set of conditions, but so much of this stuff is 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.199 escaping into the environment where it's not going to biodegrade, 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.480 and even if it does, all these are shattering into 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.840 microplastics all the same these are not alternatives. The only 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:43.440 thing that's going to get us out of this mess, 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.359 and I try to drive this home in the book, 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:47.680 is that we have to stop using plastic and replace 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.440 it with what metal, glass, that's much more easily recycled. 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.360 We recycle at this point five percent of the things 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:55.800 that we throw into recycling them. 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.680 Well, let me ask you that. Then. I've often said 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.280 in terms of this issue, because I'm an anti plastic 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.920 person going way back now, what I've accepted about recycling 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.560 and what I have fixed on about recycling is it 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.520 at least people feel that they're trying to do something 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.639 on a day to day basis, even though the actual 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.399 impact is low. It's not really making very much of 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:21.280 an impact, is it. 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:23.600 The issue of the United States is that it's a 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:29.120 profit driven industry. So if you cannot profitably recycle plastic, 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.080 these companies don't bother. What we have been doing in 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.280 developed countries like the United States has been shipping what 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:40.520 we can't profitably recycle overseas. So this is another hidden 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.120 aspect of carbon emissions associated with plastics. 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:45.680 Is that what are we shipping overseas. 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.840 The plastic waste that we cannot profitably recycle, so those 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:53.639 are usually more recyclable. The issue becomes usually the more 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:57.119 complicated plastics like pouches for baby formula. Those are multi layered, 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:01.040 very difficult to recycle. We have just been shipping at overseas. 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:04.280 Where we do wear has been China up until a 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:06.119 couple of years ago, where they said no, we're not 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:08.760 doing that anymore. That is now switching to other developing 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:13.160 countries where they are now overflowing with our plastic waste. 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:17.280 They're burning it in open pitch places like Malaysia, Indonesia. 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:20.000 And they burn American plastic products in open pits. 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:23.480 This is poisoning communities there. It is sending clouds of 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.199 microplastics into the atmosphere and addition, all the chemicals that 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.919