1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. It is found everywhere on Earth, 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: from the peak of Mount Everest to the bottom of 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: the ocean. It's in our drinking water and even inside 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: our own bodies. What is this omnipressent substance? Plastic? Plastic 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: has infiltrated our lives to such a degree that it's 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: almost impossible to live a day without encountering it. My 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: guest today is an expert on this topic. Matt Simon 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: is a science journalist and author of A Poison Like 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: no Other, How Microplastics Corrupted Our Planet and Our Bodies. 11 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: Matt Simon previously worked as a staff writer for Wired 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: and currently serves as senior writer at Grist, a nonprofit 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: media organization focused on climate solutions. In his book, Simon 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: estimates that humans have produced more than eighteen trillion pounds 15 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: of plastic, twice the weight of all the animals on Earth. 16 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: He believes we are in a plastic crisis. I wanted 17 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: Simon to begin by distinguishing some terms that had been 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: floating around, including the difference between a microplastic and a nanoplastic. 19 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 2: Well, we could actually start at macroplastics, the big stuff 20 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: bottles and bags that we know of that are floating 21 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: around on the ocean. We're all aware. Microplastics are defined 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: as bits that are smaller than five millimeters, which is 23 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 2: about the width of a pencil eraser. It's a good 24 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 2: way to think of us. You can see some microplastics 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 2: just by the naked eye, but these do get down 26 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: to the nanoscale as you mentioned here, which is there's 27 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: some debate in the scientific community as to the threshold there, 28 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: but usually around a microns, which is a millionth of 29 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: a meter. These things are imperceptibly obviously tiny to the 30 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: human eye, but scientists are getting much better at detecting 31 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: them in the environment, and they're finding truly astonishing numbers 32 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 2: of nanoplastics, far more than actually microplastics. It's just that 33 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: it's very difficult and expensive to test for an inmplan. 34 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: To nanoplastics, are they another stage of microplastics to macroplastics 35 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: become nanoplastics and degrade down to that smaller level. 36 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 2: Yep, any bottle or bag that you see out there 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: is it's pre microplastic and pre nanoplastic, which is a 38 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: good way to think of it is it's going to 39 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: break down over time into these smaller bits microplastics and 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: over time into smaller, smaller bits than nanoplastics, but it 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: never ever goes away. It probably actually reaches this sort 42 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: of equilibrium at some size in that nanoscale where it's 43 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: no longer subjected to the forces of inbrasion. So it 44 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: just kind of exists like that for eternity. Maybe we 45 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: don't know, But that's the really scary thing here is 46 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 2: that we have a lot of that out there and 47 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: the environment, and it could be permanent. 48 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: Right for those to the extent that you can speak 49 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: about this the history of plastic. Very often a product 50 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: will be developed because of a failed or a born 51 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: other product. So viagra comes from tests with like artificial 52 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: sweetener or something, and they noticed that all the mice 53 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: are really very very amorous, and they decide that they 54 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: have a product as a result of that. That's kind 55 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: of insane. But in terms of plastic, the roots of 56 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: us are in the petroleum industry, correct, correct, right, And 57 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: what were the beginnings of that plastic was meant to 58 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: be what to be used where. 59 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: It's actually a very fascinating story. So Back in the 60 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds, billiards was becoming increasingly popular in America. Unfortunately, 61 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: those balls were made out of ivory elephant tusks, obviously 62 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: in short supply if you keep killing elephants to play billiards. 63 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: There was a very famous billiards player who put out 64 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: a call for alternatives. Some scientists, please invent some sort 65 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: of synthetic material that can replace ivory in these balls, 66 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: so we can switch to that, maybe save a few 67 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: elephants in the process. But it was more like, here's 68 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: you put up ten thousand dollars, which was a lot 69 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: of money, and the. 70 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: Elephants that play billiards were especially they. 71 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: Were loving this. They were eating it up. So that 72 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: actually led to the first mass producible plastic and that 73 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: actually just kind of shifted. As we got closer and 74 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: closer to World War Two, more and more materials were 75 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: starting to be replaced by synthetic alternatives in plastic. So 76 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 2: plexiglass was plastic in it nylon for parachutes in World 77 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: War Two. That's a synthetic material. 78 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't originally just a military application. It was the 79 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: billiard game. 80 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 2: It was billiards. 81 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: Oh did he get to manufacture. 82 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: This actually, so Mina saying that he actually never coughed 83 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: up that money. But the company that started producing this 84 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 2: first mass producible plastic, there was a version of it 85 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: previously that nobody figured out how to mass produce, but 86 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: they concocted this kind of early plastic. It was actually 87 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: really funny. There was there's ingredients cent that were quite flammable, 88 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 2: so you would have sometimes in these billiard games they'd 89 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: hit the ball hard enough and it would pop. It 90 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: would explode like gunpowder. So it wasn't a perfect alternative 91 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: to elephant to us by any that sound, but it 92 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: was like, that's how weird is it that we are 93 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 2: in the catastrophe and the emergency that we are in 94 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 2: right now because of plastic pollution because there needed to 95 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: be an alternative to billiard balls made out of elephant ivory? 96 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: Now, what is it that people discover in the earliest 97 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: stage just the petroleum yields plastic? Were they working on 98 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: something else with petroleum and then all a sudden they 99 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: realized that it you boiled it, then you let it 100 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 1: sit in the pot, and that turned to this blob 101 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: of future billiard balls. Like, how was it that petroleum 102 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: was the source of plastic. 103 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: So any plastic at its core is a chain of carbon, 104 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: just a bunch of carbon chained together into this really 105 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: strong material. That's what makes plastic so durables, carbon stuck together. Obviously, 106 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: fossil fuels are a source of carbon. So as you 107 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: know World War two was kicking off, we were also 108 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: getting much deeper into fossil fuel production for any number 109 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 2: of military uses, but also burgeoning car culture here in 110 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: the United States. So the petrochemical industry taking off at 111 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: this period realized that we could take some of these 112 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: byproducts from fuel production and turn them into petrochemicals, which 113 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 2: we then turn into plastics, And ever since then, plastics 114 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 2: and climate change have been just very directly linked. This 115 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: is two sides of the same coin, which makes it 116 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: a much more difficult problem to tackle because of the 117 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: fossil fuel interest in this country. But this whole time, 118 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: it's carbon. It just comes right down a carbon. There's 119 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: a bunch of chemicals added to make a plastic a plastic, 120 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: to make it more waterproof or clear clear, to make 121 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: it more stretchy, durable, that sort of thing, But at 122 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 2: its core, it's carbon. You actually make plastics bioplastics out 123 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 2: of carbon taken from plants. But that's problematic in its 124 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: own right. As I talked about in the book. 125 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: When I think back to my childhood, we had a 126 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: milk man and he delivered milk in a truck and 127 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: put a metal container on your front porch with glass 128 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: bottles of milk every day or every other day. And 129 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: then you turn around at some point and everything is 130 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: inside a plast container. Yes. Now, when a product is 131 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: inside a plastic container, particularly over a long period of time, 132 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: do some of the chemicals that are kept inside these 133 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: do they interact with the inside walls of the plastic 134 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: and there's plastic released and in the product. 135 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is known as leeching in the industry. 136 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: So you have a bottle of water, There have been 137 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: a number of studies that have actually quantified the amount 138 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: of microplastics in that water, which is a lot much 139 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: more so than you get in the tap water that 140 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: I'm drinking here out of a glass container right now. 141 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: But you also seem to have the leaching of these 142 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: chemical components in plastics into both liquids through bottles, but 143 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: also our food that's all wrapped in single use plastic. 144 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: The very important study came out last year of the 145 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: year before looked at a particular class of chemicals called 146 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: thalates in plastics, and they look through people's blood samples 147 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: and then looked at their health issues use. And they estimated, 148 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: at a very conservative level that these thalites could be 149 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: responsible for up to one hundred thousand premature deaths in 150 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: the United States each year. And that's a very conservative estimate. 151 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: They cannot say at the moment how those salites are 152 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: getting from plastic into those bodies, Like maybe it was 153 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: partly microplastics and nanoplastics, Maybe it was these chemicals leaching 154 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,679 Speaker 2: into foods or liquids that are in contact with single 155 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: use plastic. They're not sure yet, but we have a 156 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: growing body of evidence right now that there are a 157 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: number of chemicals and plastics that are for sure terrible 158 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 2: for human health. 159 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: And again I'm thinking, like, if I'm spraying something on 160 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: a countertop to clean the countertop, has plastic leeched inside 161 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: that bottle into the product that I'm spraying, Yes, because 162 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: that's what I was going to assume. It's got to 163 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: be the case that this stuff can't stay on either 164 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: side of some biochemical wall for very long. 165 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: It gets everywhere, And I like to have people think 166 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: about glitter. Glitter is a microplastic. It's little pieces of 167 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 2: colorful plastic. 168 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: Think of how I see glitter. 169 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: It drives me crazy. I mean greeting cards. Stop it. 170 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: So think about glitter. Think of all the nooks and 171 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 2: crannies that glitter is so easily gets into. That is 172 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: how microplastics behave in the human home and in the environment. 173 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: It gets absolutely everywhere. These things are tiny. First of all, 174 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: plastic bites nature is a very light material, so it 175 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: very easily takes the air. If you look through your 176 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: window and see the sunlight coming through, and you can 177 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: sometimes see little floating bits of seems like fibers, those 178 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 2: are most likely microplastics from your clothing. So it's it's 179 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: like glitter. It gets everywhere, and unfortunately, like glitter, it's 180 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: hard to get people to stop using it. 181 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: What's of the most common type of clothing like obviously 182 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: all of us have been made aware that the stain 183 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: guard coating on sofas we have the coated stuff and 184 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: that fiber the coating wears off. I was told the 185 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: plastic comes off, the microplast takes literally feather off of 186 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: or just acterior rate off of the couch. Where did 187 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: the plastics come off of? What clothing? 188 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 2: This is one of the rather sneaky ways that plastics 189 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: have infiltrated our lives in recent decades that we just 190 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: weren't aware of. I do not think that most people 191 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: realize that two thirds of clothing now is made out 192 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 2: of synthetic fibers like polyester or nylon, that is plastic 193 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 2: that's made out of fossil fuels. There was a study 194 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: that actually found that just by walking around as a 195 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: human being wearing these synthetic clothes, you might shed a 196 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: billion fibers a year. A lot of that is settling 197 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 2: on the floor of your home, but also taking to 198 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: the air. Your couch is probably made out of synthetic fiber, 199 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: unless it's pure cotton, which is unlikely carpeting is made. 200 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: I don't have to worry about. 201 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: So that's the issue, like right and so, like right now, 202 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: I think I'm wearing a sweat. I think it's wool. 203 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but even natural fibers now are oftentimes 204 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: coated in plastic because it makes them waterproof. So we 205 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 2: have like you're not safe from any sort of clothing. 206 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 2: Some I think cotton might be pure cotton, but there's 207 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: a high chance of it actually having plastic associated with it. 208 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: Carpets made out of synthetic fibers, hardwood floors most of 209 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: the time now are made out of plastics like laminate 210 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 2: and vinyl, that sort of thing. Everything in the home 211 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: is basically made out of plastic, and that is why 212 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: scientists have been founding really stunning numbers of microplastic in 213 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 2: the home, probably about six times the amount of microplastic 214 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: in indoor air as an outdoor air. So we are, 215 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: by one cognition. 216 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: Those air filters on all the time in our house. 217 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, good idea. I don't want to ruin that for 218 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 2: you as well. But there was a study that found 219 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: that those filters capture some microplastics, but because they're made 220 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 2: out of plastic themselves also produced plastic. But it's probably 221 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 2: better than them. It's probably yeah, it's probably better than 222 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: not that break even. 223 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: Now we got introduced to Jan Schlickman, who was the 224 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: protagonist of Jonathan Harr's book, a civil action that was 225 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: made into the film with Travolta, where they came and 226 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: basically said that these children who were in this leukemia 227 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: cluster were more likely killed and given leukemia by breathing 228 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: in this contaminated word in the shower was going into 229 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: their lungs, which were more sensitive. And I'm wondering is 230 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: that true. Is that something we need to be concerned 231 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: about in our world now where the water itself is 232 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: contaminated with plastic. 233 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: This is the frontier in microplastic science right now, is 234 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 2: that we have good qualifications of where this stuff is 235 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: a lot of the places in the environment, I should 236 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: say every place in the environment we have microplastics. There's 237 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: a lot of in the human home. We are inhaling, 238 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 2: by one calculation, seven thousand microfibers a day. And when 239 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 2: you think about children, they are spending a lot of 240 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: their time on the ground crawling around. There have been 241 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: a number of sites that consistently come up with the 242 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: same figures that there's probably hundreds of thousands of fibers 243 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 2: settling on the average living room floor each day, and 244 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 2: we don't want children trapesing through that. Children are also 245 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 2: putting a lot of things in their mouths, plastic toys. 246 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: The huge source of microplastics into children's bodies is that 247 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: when you prepare infant formula in a plastic bottle with warm, 248 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: hot water, that has been shown to produce millions of microplastic. Yeah, 249 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: it's and that's so important is that you should never, 250 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 2: under any circumstances prepare things that are warm or hot 251 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: in plastic. 252 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: Well, the cups we serve them, they're drinks. 253 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 2: This bamboo great, Yeah, dude, Like, don't freeze plastic even 254 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 2: unfortunately that that kind of cuts into frozen foods. 255 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: Don't. 256 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: So these are the things that really these are the 257 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: things that tear apart microplastics from these macroplastics. The things 258 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: that break down plastically. The environment is UV bombardment. It 259 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: breaks apart the bonds in that plastic, but also freezing 260 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 2: and heating plastics are very tough, but it does break 261 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 2: apart these ways over time. So when we're thinking about 262 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: the exposure that humans have, and especially children, we need 263 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: to consider. Inhalation is probably the major one, just because 264 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 2: there's so much an indoor air. We're drinking a lot 265 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 2: of it. Because I'm in San Francisco, we get water 266 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: from hetch Hetchy. It is not filtered on our way 267 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: to our tasks because it's such pure water. But there's 268 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: so much microplastic falling out of the sky that every 269 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: water source is good. That's everywhere, it's everywhere, and it's 270 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: like even underground water sources, they're finding microplastics have seeped 271 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: through the dirt into these aquifers. There is no escaping them. 272 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: We are now at this frontier where we know that 273 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: we're exposed. We don't know how much microplastic. Is too 274 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: much microplastic to have in the body. Obviously no particulate 275 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: matter is good to have in the lungs, but we 276 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: desperately need to know, especially for children, is there too 277 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: much microplastic to have in the body. It's not gonna 278 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: be good, Like there's no good ways for this to go, 279 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: but how bad could it potentially be. 280 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: There's no way that micro or for that matter, nanoplastics 281 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: can be removed, for example, like on a centrifugal device, 282 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: meaning is there any way to get rid of it 283 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: out of water? 284 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: There are some early studies into ways that you can 285 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: do really precise filtration. So if you think about there's 286 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: waste to recycle waste water actually by passing it through 287 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: very fine membranes and the water that comes out of 288 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: it is actually so pure that they have to add 289 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: minerals back into it. It actually does terrible things for 290 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: the human body. So that would remove microplastics for sure. 291 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: That's just very expensive to do. That's that's what desalination does, 292 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: and that's why desalination is so expensive. You could do 293 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: that for microplastics, but it's just the issue is, like 294 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: I'm drinking water out of this cup right now, there 295 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: are microplastics falling into the water right now. So even 296 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: if it's filter that clear, Yeah, even if we're being bombarded. 297 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: By nanoplastics and microplasics while we're doing this show. 298 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: Yes, not to freak you out. Just because we can't 299 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: see it doesn't mean it's not there. You can actually 300 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 2: see some of these microplastics, they're big enough, but there's 301 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: so many more in the nanoscale that we cannot see, 302 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: and we know almost nothing about what this means for 303 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: human health. 304 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: Journalist Matt Simon. If you enjoy conversations on the fate 305 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: of municipal trash and recycling, check out my episode with 306 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: former New York City Deputy Commissioner of Wastewater Treatment Pam 307 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: Alardo and New York City's first recycling, z are Ron Gonan. 308 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 3: This is the fascinating world of biology. We use a 309 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 3: community of bacteria that actually digests the suspended organic material 310 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 3: and clean the water via that method, and from there 311 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 3: it goes to another settling tank where we settle out 312 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 3: the biomass that just consumed all this organic matter. But 313 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 3: the water that comes out of the final settling tank 314 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 3: gets disinfection basically household bleached to take any particular pathogens out, 315 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: and that gets either discharged to receiving waters or in 316 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 3: some cases, in some cities, they're able to polish a 317 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 3: little bit more, ease it for irrigation purposes. 318 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Pam Alardo and 319 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: Ron Goonan, go to Here's the Thing dot Org to 320 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: the break, Matt Simon shares what he believes is the 321 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: only solution to the plastic crisis. I'm Alec Baldwin and 322 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. Matt Simon writes in 323 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: a poison like no other, that the vast majority of 324 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: plastic produced on the planet becomes waste, ending up in 325 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: our landfills or our water. I wanted his perspective on 326 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: the possibility of biodegradable plastics. 327 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 2: Videgradable is a sticky term without a really agreed upon definition. 328 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: Videgradable basically means it breaks down faster. So you can 329 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 2: think of like a composting bag. You compost in, you 330 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: throw it out. That is a plastic. Still it's meant 331 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: to degrade under certain conditions. So that's in a composing 332 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 2: facility where the temperatures are very high for a long 333 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 2: perd that's not. 334 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: Made of a vegetable product, or it can. It can. 335 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 2: It can be made like the carbon can come from 336 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: plants that be a bio based plastic, but it's still 337 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: mixing with all kinds of other petrochemicals, and yeah, it 338 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:11,479 Speaker 2: makes it a plastic. 339 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: Noting that is just absent petrochemical. 340 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 2: Sadly of plastic as we know it is a carbon 341 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 2: typically comes from car from the carbon from fossil fuels, 342 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: but also all the other petrochemicals that make a plastical plastic, 343 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: that make it tough, that make it durable, that make 344 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 2: it light, those are made from from fossil fuels as well. 345 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 2: So you can have a bioplastic it's made from corn fantastic, 346 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 2: except to actually scale that up if you were to 347 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: replace all conventional plastics with bioplastics, would require an enormous 348 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 2: amount of land, would come with just an enormous amount 349 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: of water use and emissions. So it's problematic in its 350 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 2: own right. So biodegradable theoretically means that it breaks down 351 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 2: faster in a composting facility. Unfortunately, if those bags are 352 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: breaking down in that comp. 353 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: Just plastic broken down. 354 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 2: The plastic bag just spread out on a field in 355 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: its deconstructed form, it's glitter. It's glitter. But if you 356 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 2: have that same bag that escapes into the ocean, for example, 357 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 2: that isn't an environment that is not meant to break down, 358 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 2: and it was designed to break down under high temperatures 359 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 2: mixed in with all this organic matter. And they've done 360 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 2: studies that have they they've set these bags in ocean 361 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: water for years at a time and found that it 362 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 2: just doesn't break down. They bury it, it just doesn't 363 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 2: break down. So it's like usually biodegradable for a specific 364 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: set of conditions, but so much of this stuff is 365 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 2: escaping into the environment where it's not going to biodegrade, 366 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: and even if it does, all these are shattering into 367 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: microplastics all the same these are not alternatives. The only 368 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 2: thing that's going to get us out of this mess, 369 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: and I try to drive this home in the book, 370 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: is that we have to stop using plastic and replace 371 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 2: it with what metal, glass, that's much more easily recycled. 372 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 2: We recycle at this point five percent of the things 373 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 2: that we throw into recycling them. 374 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you that. Then. I've often said 375 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: in terms of this issue, because I'm an anti plastic 376 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: person going way back now, what I've accepted about recycling 377 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: and what I have fixed on about recycling is it 378 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: at least people feel that they're trying to do something 379 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: on a day to day basis, even though the actual 380 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: impact is low. It's not really making very much of 381 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: an impact, is it. 382 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: The issue of the United States is that it's a 383 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 2: profit driven industry. So if you cannot profitably recycle plastic, 384 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: these companies don't bother. What we have been doing in 385 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: developed countries like the United States has been shipping what 386 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: we can't profitably recycle overseas. So this is another hidden 387 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 2: aspect of carbon emissions associated with plastics. 388 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: Is that what are we shipping overseas. 389 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 2: The plastic waste that we cannot profitably recycle, so those 390 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 2: are usually more recyclable. The issue becomes usually the more 391 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: complicated plastics like pouches for baby formula. Those are multi layered, 392 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: very difficult to recycle. We have just been shipping at overseas. 393 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 2: Where we do wear has been China up until a 394 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 2: couple of years ago, where they said no, we're not 395 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: doing that anymore. That is now switching to other developing 396 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 2: countries where they are now overflowing with our plastic waste. 397 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: They're burning it in open pitch places like Malaysia, Indonesia. 398 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: And they burn American plastic products in open pits. 399 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 2: This is poisoning communities there. It is sending clouds of 400 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 2: microplastics into the atmosphere and addition, all the chemicals that 401 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 2: are poisoning the surrounding communities or they're bearing it if 402 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: they're not burning it. It is a wildly inefficient system 403 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: that we in America have been kind of on the 404 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 2: hope system, which is I hope this gets recycled if 405 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 2: I throw it in the bin, when in reality, five 406 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: percent of that is getting recycled here the rest being 407 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: shipped away. 408 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: And when you say five percent, you mean five percent 409 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: of the total amount of product that's consumed every year 410 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: or or five percent of the stuff that actually people 411 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: believe is being recycled. 412 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: The latter, yes, the stuff. 413 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: So people believe that there's a whole cornucopia of things, 414 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: or at least a massive amount of a few things 415 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: that are being recycled, and only five percent of it 416 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: is actually recycled. 417 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so fundamentally recycling is busted in this country. I 418 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 2: do want to be very clear that I want people 419 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: to put things in that bin because we need to 420 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 2: put pressure on these systems to change. We need these 421 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: like the system needs to catch up with our hopes 422 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: as consumers. Right, we can't just get dejected and throw 423 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 2: everything in the trash, because that's exactly what the plastics 424 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: industry wants us to do. Oh, I mean anything around plastics, 425 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 2: like getting sad about microplastics. They want us to feel dejected, 426 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 2: just like they want us to feel bad about climate change. 427 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 2: They've always like VP and mented the idea of a 428 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 2: carbon footprint to make us feel like this is our 429 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 2: issue as climate change. Maybe if you fly less, we're 430 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: going to make more progress on climate change. They're going 431 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 2: to do the same exact thing with plastic, which is 432 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: what they did with recycling decades ago. The plastic symdistry 433 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 2: pushed that really hard because if we think that we're 434 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: recycling more, we will not feel bad about con soon 435 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 2: to mollify you, yes, And the issue there is that 436 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 2: we have been increasing the production of plastic exponentially. We 437 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 2: are producing a trillion pounds of plastic a year now 438 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: that is going to triple by twenty fifty if we 439 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: do not stop the industry from doing this. So when 440 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: we talk about these individual things that we can do, 441 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: all well and good to reduce your exposure to plastic 442 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: and your consumption of plastic, but we need systemic change 443 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: that I think begins with politicians that need to realize 444 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: that the climate change and plastics are two sides of 445 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 2: the same coin. 446 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: As many people of my age recall that there's one 447 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: product that is very popular, they're everywhere, and they had 448 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: a plastic bottle. Then they came back and said, we've 449 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: made the bottle even lighter. 450 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 2: That's profit driven. That's not of the goodness of the heart. 451 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: That companies have been using more plastic and thinner plastic. 452 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 2: It makes these products lighter, and it actually decreases the 453 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 2: cost for shipping those that's what Actually, that's the base 454 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: of what got us into this mess. At its core 455 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: is much lighter than glass or metal. Everybody switched to 456 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 2: it because it increased profit margins. But this is what 457 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: we're up against right now, is that this stuff has 458 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 2: so thoroughly saturated the market we have no choice. So 459 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 2: like capitalism is supposed to be about choice, Like we 460 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 2: have twenty different kinds of toothpastes in the grocery store, 461 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 2: we don't have an option for any of those to 462 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 2: come in something that's not plastic. I thought capitalism was 463 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 2: all about choice, but apparently not. We have just no alternative. 464 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: So even if you are very mindful about the way 465 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 2: that you might be using too much plastic, and I 466 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 2: never want to push this on the consumer as it 467 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 2: being their fault, even so, you just don't have the 468 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 2: opportunity to switch away from it because we are just 469 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 2: not given any options now. 470 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: We often ask this question of people involved with an issue, 471 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: to see beyond the American horizon, where are they doing 472 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: a better job around the world and extracting plastics from 473 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: the waste stream. 474 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 2: Germany's doing a much better job, but listen, they have 475 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 2: a much more robust recycling system, like they're able to 476 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: go in and pick out and recycle these much more 477 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: complicated plastics that I mentioned, whereas we in the America 478 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: we are saying screwabill ship it overseas, they'll deal with it. Recycling, though, 479 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: is not the end all be all here. This is 480 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: not what we should fall back on because it is 481 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 2: in a poor state at the moment, and we're an 482 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 2: emergency right now. This is a macroplastic and microplastic emergency 483 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 2: because as we exponentially increase production, scientists are showing an 484 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: exponential contamination of ocean sediments. For example, starting in the 485 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: nineteen forties, you can track perfectly the amount of plastic 486 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 2: production and the amounts of microplastic contamination going back to 487 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 2: the nineteen forties in these ocean sediments map perfectly. So 488 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: as we keep going on that exponential path, the whole 489 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 2: world is going to become more contaminated with these microplastics. 490 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: Recycling is not going to fix that. What is going 491 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: to fix that is massively curtailing the production of plastics. 492 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 2: And there's the treaty that is in the works right 493 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 2: now might help with that, but there's also industry lobbyists 494 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 2: there who are pushing very hard to keep producing as 495 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: much plastic as they want because it's a profit driven enterprise. 496 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: And if we think that recycling is working going forward, 497 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: we won't make a big fuss about it. But we 498 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 2: need fundamentally better systems like they do in Germany. 499 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: The petroleum industry is obviously a key player here, but 500 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: they don't make plastics themselves, or do they own subsidiaries 501 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: that make plastics. 502 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all inn twine, it's all one product. It's 503 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 2: the stuff that they're pulling out of the ground. That's 504 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 2: why there are so many emissions associated with plastics production. 505 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 2: So it obviously takes a lot of energy to get 506 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 2: that stuff out of the ground. Here's a lot of 507 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 2: energy to transform it first into fuels that go into 508 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 2: our cars and jets, but then to take the rest 509 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: of it and turn it into plastics. It is energy 510 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 2: intensive the whole way through. And there's increasing evidence that 511 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: as microplastics are floating around in the atmosphere, for example, 512 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 2: they're off gasing that carbon method and in particular which 513 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 2: is an extremely potent greenhouse gas. So we may have 514 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: a twofold problem in the atmosphere. One is that those 515 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 2: particles could be interacting with clouds and interacting with the 516 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 2: Sun's energy and perhaps warming the atmosphere. That's how that's like, 517 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: we're getting the point where there's enough microplastics in the 518 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 2: atmosphere for that to happen. Are they changing the way 519 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 2: that clouds are forming and that weather patterns are forming. 520 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 2: The other thing is that while they're up there, as 521 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 2: they're breaking down, they're releasing continually these carbon gases. So 522 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 2: at their cores, a little particle breaks down, the stuff 523 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: at the middle eventually is exposed to the air and 524 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: off gases. So we have basically these little gas producing 525 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 2: particles all over the atmosphere. These are they're fossil fuels. 526 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: Any plastic, very few, like one percent are now made 527 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 2: out of plants. Ninety nine percent aut of are made 528 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: out of fossil fuels, and they're they're associated with emissions 529 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 2: are insane. The projection is that by twenty fifty the 530 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: plastics industry will be polluting as much as six hundred 531 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 2: coal fired power plants. And that's the tragedies that as 532 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 2: we're decarbonizing in the United States and decommissioning coal fired 533 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: power plants, the fossil fel industry is seen the riding 534 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 2: on the wall and they're saying, Okay, we'll just switch 535 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: to plastics. It's the same product. Basically, we're gonna switch 536 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 2: to that that is not emissions free by any measure, 537 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 2: and it could be interacting with earth systems in other 538 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 2: strange way, like heating up beaches. All the microplastics mixed 539 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 2: in with the sand could be messing with sea turtle 540 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: clutches and things like that. It's I call it a 541 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 2: poison like no other, because it is so. 542 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: I want to reach the poison like no weather is 543 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: the name of your book, it is, Yeah, I do 544 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: have that. No, I want to make sure we've got 545 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: that down the I had an idea, and this is 546 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: the part there's to be organized. Its massive campaigns of 547 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: recycling where all that stuff goes to the military bases 548 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: as recycling centers. You turn these old army bases into 549 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: recycling centers and try to separate the plastics and the metals, 550 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: and the glass and the paper, but mostly the focus 551 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: on plastic. Have plastic and find a way to dispose 552 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: of it, not recycle it, not use it again. If 553 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: we're trying to push our way toward the non plastic world, 554 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: which I mean, don't you feel that's pretty hopeless? 555 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: Actually say, that's where I have actually a little bit 556 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: of hope. You mentioned the milk bottles, which is interesting. 557 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 2: I hadn't thought of that. I was watching old Westerns. 558 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: I was thinking about general stores. Like back in the day, 559 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: if you wanted beans or something, right, you go to 560 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 2: a general store. They got a big burr lap sack 561 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 2: of beans. You put your beans in your own bur lapsack, 562 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 2: you take it home. Plastic was in no way in 563 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: that supply chain. And when you think about the ways 564 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: that plastics have really infiltrated our lives in the past 565 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 2: few decades, and these really sneaky ways, it was not 566 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: that long ago that we were getting along perfectly fine 567 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: with that single use plassic. I'm in my late thirties. 568 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: I remember a time when it was nowhere near the 569 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: way it is today. There was a period in human history, 570 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: the vast majority of human history actually, that we didn't 571 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: use plastic, and we got a I'm perfectly okay. So 572 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 2: I think that that's where I have a little bit 573 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: of hope, is that maybe there's a tide turning here 574 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 2: where people are realizing just how silly single use plastics are. 575 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 2: Cucumbers are wrapped in single use plastic in the grocery 576 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: store these days. They have their own skins, right, that's 577 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: one of their charms as cucumbers. They leave them alone, 578 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: leave plastic out of this. I think as we it 579 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: dawns on us as a society just how out of 580 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: control this has gotten. That hopefully we pull back on 581 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: single use plastics in general. But I think there will 582 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 2: be uses for plastic going forward, like in medical devices 583 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 2: and things like that. That's okay, obviously, but singles plastic 584 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: is absolutly out of control. And I think if we 585 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 2: get enough support on the ground level, of the community level, 586 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 2: and we can spend more time and money lobbying politicians 587 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: on this to get them to realize that we are 588 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: in an emergency that if we let the plastics industry 589 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: keep doing what they want, they're going to contamine. They're 590 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 2: gonna be like, they're going to kill the planet. This 591 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 2: is planetary vandalism. And there are already indications that ecosystems 592 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 2: are suffering, and there are a number of documented cases 593 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 2: of animals dying because of ingesting microplastics. We have the 594 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: evidence that it's really bad, and I go through in 595 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: the book all these much more intricate ways that it 596 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 2: could be affecting the planet that we also need to consider. 597 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 2: But we can't wait for it to be a for 598 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 2: sure thing that we know that's happening to like plankton 599 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: or whatever. We need this right now. We need to 600 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: stop the production of plastic where we can, because it's 601 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 2: totally out of control. 602 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: What organization that people might be familiar with or not, 603 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: you think it's doing some of the best work and 604 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: most cutting edge work on developing policies to solve the 605 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: plastic problem. 606 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to endorse anyone, but there are number 607 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: ones is like a group called Beyond Plastics, for one. 608 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 2: They're just a lot of scientists that are also getting 609 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: more vocal about this, beyond these advocacy groups, because they 610 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: have known about microplastic contamination for a few decades now, 611 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 2: but the bulk of the research has really come out 612 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: in the past few years. It's slowly dawning on that 613 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 2: this is like a catastrophe of the highest order that 614 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: affects basically every organism on this planet. So we need 615 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 2: right now politicians to turn around This is me being 616 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 2: way too idealistic in the United States, Like how do 617 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 2: we divorce the fossil fuel industry that is so intricately 618 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 2: intertwined with our politics. I don't know. The only way 619 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: I see that happening is is it and I think 620 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 2: this is already happening, is that people are starting to 621 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: realize just how out of control it is and how 622 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: crazy it is that we are so surrounded by plastics. 623 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 2: This is an experiment that is forced upon us. We 624 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 2: never asked for this, like I never asked for acomber 625 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: to be wrapped in singles plastic. I doesn't want to 626 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: the damn cucumber. It's out of control. 627 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: Science writer Matt Simon. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell 628 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing 629 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 630 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: When we come back, I'm and sharees what city he 631 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: believes is doing a proactive job of keeping the ocean clean. 632 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 633 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: I am speaking with Matt Simon, author of the book 634 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: A Poison Like No Other, Approximately eighteen billion pounds of 635 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: plastic enter the ocean each year. The Ocean Cleanup is 636 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: a nonprofit organization working to solve the problem by catching 637 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: and extracting plastic from our bodies of water. One area 638 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: they are concentrating on is the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, 639 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: which is estimated to be twice the size of Texas 640 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: and the weight of seven hundred and forty Boeing Triple Seven's. 641 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: It is this place in the ocean where currents tend 642 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 2: to accumulate floating plastic, so that is coming off of 643 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 2: either our west coast or from Asia. That stuff just 644 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 2: kind of gathers in the middle of the Pacific, and 645 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: you think of like this garbage patch. It's not like 646 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 2: a salt you can't walk on it. It's not like 647 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 2: an island. It's more spread out than that. So this campaign, 648 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: their idea is to build this giant U shaped plastic tube, 649 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 2: tow it out, have that catch all the plastic that 650 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: floats into it, send a boat out to get that plastic, 651 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: bring it back on shore, recycling into products that then 652 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: go to consumers. The issue is a couple of fold 653 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 2: So for one, the Ocean would have other ideas about 654 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 2: building a very long plastic tube and deploying it on 655 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: the surface. It broken half very early on in the campaign. 656 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 2: They had to tow it to Hawaii or repair clean up. 657 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 2: The other issue is that plastic pollution in the ocean 658 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 2: is a three D problem. You are in that campaign 659 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 2: gathering what's on the surface, but below that there is 660 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 2: a whole lot more plastic and a whole lot more microplastics, 661 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 2: and that's what it's not catching. It is catching the 662 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 2: big stuff. 663 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: But you don't discourage people from trying to get rid 664 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: of the big stuff. 665 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: So when scientists who are setting plastic talk about mitigating 666 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: plastic pollution, they want to go as far upstream as possible, 667 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 2: and by that I mean the fartheres step stream we 668 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 2: can go is to stop producing the plastic in the 669 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 2: first place. That way it cannot escape into the environment 670 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 2: in anyway if it doesn't exist, but if you go 671 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 2: farther downstream. One of my favorite things on the planet 672 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 2: is something in Baltimore Harbor called Mister Trash Wheel, which 673 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 2: is a barge that they put big googly eyes on 674 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 2: and it actually does the same thing where it intercepts 675 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 2: plastic floating out of the harbor before it can get 676 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 2: into the seat. So that is catching those plastics before 677 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 2: they're out, and you have a very much harder time 678 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 2: getting a hold of them, like the Ocean Cleanup is 679 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 2: trying to do. So we need to move as far 680 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 2: upstream as possible, and what Ocean Cleanup is doing is 681 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 2: very far downstream, and that just makes things much more difficult. 682 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 2: It's actually quite effective to do beach cleanups. You just 683 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 2: have people on the shore who might volunteer their time. 684 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 2: But I also bristol this sort of stuff because this 685 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 2: shouldn't be our responsibility. This is not our problem. This 686 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 2: is the plastics industry problem. They created this catastrophe, and 687 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 2: now we are the ones who have to walk along 688 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 2: beaches and clean stuff up. Then that should be their 689 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 2: money and time going to doing that sort of thing. 690 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: Now I see people in New York take the top 691 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: of a pack of cigarettes off and throw them on 692 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: the ground. And this is a source of tremendous anger 693 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: for me. What pigs people can be and throwing their 694 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: garbage here and there and just assuming that it's going 695 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: to be collected. I mean, how many billions of cigarette 696 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 1: butts go down storm drains and out into bodies of water. 697 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: Trillions four trillion a year are discarded cigarette and I'll 698 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 2: talk about this in the book. Four trillion are discarded 699 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: each year into the environment. Those are made out of plastic. 700 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 2: So those are made out of microfibers made out of plastic. 701 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 2: When you when a smoker steps on it, when they 702 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 2: put it out, that starts breaking apart. It primes it 703 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 2: to disintegrate into microplastics. 704 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: Cigarettes. 705 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, cigarette butts are one of the most usually the 706 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,439 Speaker 2: most commonly collected item on beach cleanup blocks that they're 707 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 2: a huge source of plastic pollution that you think it'd 708 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: be bottled in bags. Nope, it is cigarette bets because 709 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 2: exactly like you're talking about, people just do not give 710 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 2: a damn. Maybe they don't realize that it's not like 711 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:16,800 Speaker 2: it's not made out of cotton or something. It's not 712 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 2: going to biot A grade. It's a synthetic fiber and 713 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 2: it's loaded with all the smoke chemicals that you were 714 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 2: sucking through it before you throw it out. So I 715 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 2: would say that I think with plastics that part of 716 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 2: that is a large part really is education. I don't 717 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 2: think a lot of people realize just what is made 718 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 2: out of plastic. I don't think they realized maybe the 719 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,240 Speaker 2: cigarette bets are made out of plastic, that they're actually 720 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 2: littering plastic into the environment. They probably don't realize that, 721 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 2: like where does that actually go? It must go to 722 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 2: a treatment facility where they're going to pluck out every 723 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 2: tiny little bit of thing before setting the water out 724 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,799 Speaker 2: to the ocean. No, no, not the case. I think 725 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 2: that education with plastics is going to be a huge 726 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 2: part of it, talking to people both about the way 727 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 2: that they're using it and you know, disposing it in 728 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 2: improper ways, but also this bigger systemic change that we 729 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 2: need here, which is to massively cut back on the 730 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 2: production of plastic and get people to realize how terrible 731 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 2: for the planet this stuff is in any number of ways. 732 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: Now, the other thing, the last thing I want to 733 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: say is who would you say, Is there someone in Congress? 734 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: Is there a governor or is there a member of 735 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: any legislature who do you think has the right ideas 736 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: about this problem that you think you've had their ear. 737 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: Who's someone who's good on this issue of solving the 738 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: plastic problem? 739 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 2: If anyone who is the is the organ senator or 740 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 2: Representative Merkley Jeff Merkley Jeff Merkley. 741 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 1: Yes, he is a US Senator from Oregon. 742 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 2: That's been floating the idea of microplastics specifically here in Congress. 743 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 2: And what I'm hoping with the book is that it 744 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 2: does inspire some conversation around moving from the understanding of 745 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 2: plastics as this macro thing the bottles and bags, into 746 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 2: the micro scale and the nanoscale, which is the stuff 747 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 2: that's really in every aspect of our lives. It's again 748 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: in the air that we're breathing. You and I right now. 749 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 2: I think when it becomes more visceral for people like that, 750 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 2: maybe that inspires more political change, because that the only 751 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 2: way that we're going to get these petrochemical companies to 752 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: stop producing some stuff is political. It's like to put 753 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 2: this treaty is actually going to try to put a 754 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 2: cap on the production of plastic. 755 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,760 Speaker 1: So that's your prescription in the short term is caps. 756 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 2: You think that that's the way to go, the only way, 757 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 2: it's the only way, Like, we cannot continue in triple 758 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 2: production of plastic by twenty fifty and come out at 759 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 2: the end of it with a better world. That's the 760 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 2: extreme urgency right now is that we need to do 761 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 2: this at this moment to cap production because given the opportunity, 762 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 2: these companies are going to make as much money as 763 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 2: humanly possible, they are legally obligated to their shareholders to 764 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 2: maximize profit and in doing so destroy the planet, which 765 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 2: is a perversion and that needs to stop. And the 766 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 2: only way that we're going to put the brakes on 767 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 2: that is politically, hopefully with an international treaty and hopefully 768 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 2: one that does not get watered down by the lobbyists 769 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 2: who are attending these talks. 770 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much. My thanks to Matt Simon. 771 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and 772 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media 773 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: manager is Danielle Gingrich. Here's the Thing is recorded at 774 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: CDM Studios. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing is brought 775 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 1: to you by iHeart Radio.