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Speaker 1: Welcome to two percent. I'm your host, Michael Easter. Today's

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Speaker 1: guest is Maria Konikova. So Maria got her PhD studying

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Speaker 1: psychology specifically decision making at Columbia University, and then once

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Speaker 1: she had done all those years in school at a

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Speaker 1: very high level, she decided to go to a real

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Speaker 1: life decision making laboratory the best there is. She decided

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Speaker 1: to go all in as being a professional poker player.

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Speaker 1: Now it turns out that poker might be the best

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Speaker 1: way that we all can learn how to make better

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Speaker 1: decisions every single day.

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Speaker 2: So she happens to be in town.

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Speaker 1: For the World Series of Poker, which is happening in

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Speaker 1: Las Vegas right now. So we dragged her into the

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Speaker 1: studio and she's going to break down the art, science

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Speaker 1: and psychology of how you can make better decisions, no matter.

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Speaker 2: What they are.

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Speaker 1: So with all that said, we'll take a quick break

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Speaker 1: and we're going to bring in Maria.

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Speaker 2: Maria, thanks for coming on, Thanks so much for having Michael.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you go to Columbia, you get a PhD

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Speaker 1: in psychology specifically decision making, right yep. But then you

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Speaker 1: come across game theory and this guy who argues poker

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Speaker 1: as one of the best ways to understand decision making.

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Speaker 1: So you go, Okay, maybe there's a book here, and

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Speaker 1: instead of just looking at it from the outside, you're like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to.

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Speaker 2: Go all in on poker for a year. Now. That

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Speaker 2: was what ten years ago, It was a.

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Speaker 3: Little less than ten years ago. So I started playing.

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Speaker 3: I picked up my first hand of cards in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And now here we are twenty twenty six, yep,

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Speaker 1: and you're literally playing in the World Series of Poker.

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Speaker 3: I am literally playing in the World Series of Poker.

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Speaker 3: We're doing this in Vegas. I'm taking a day off

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Speaker 3: and we are taping this one day before I play

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Speaker 3: the main event.

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Speaker 2: So you caught some sort of bug.

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Speaker 3: I definitely did, in the sense of realizing that poker

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Speaker 3: really is the best tool I have personally ever encountered

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Speaker 3: to teach good decision and it's something that I started

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Speaker 3: just believing fervently in as a tool to teach people

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Speaker 3: to be better, to make better decisions. And so I

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Speaker 3: decided to stay in that world and to kind of

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Speaker 3: straddle the worlds of writing and poker because it unlocked

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Speaker 3: something in the way that I approached decision making the

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Speaker 3: way I approached kind of my life, the way I

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Speaker 3: approached the world, and I felt that if other people

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Speaker 3: could discover it, they would be better, Their lives would

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Speaker 3: be better, the world would be a better place. I

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Speaker 3: know it sounds ridiculous to be like, if everyone plays poker,

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Speaker 3: the world would be a better place, but I actually

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Speaker 3: believe that's true because I think that makes people much

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Speaker 3: more rational, kind of better, able to deal with emotions,

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Speaker 3: with all sorts of things, and it puts decision making

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Speaker 3: on a different level that can help us become better

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Speaker 3: and in total, the world becomes better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So one thing I love too is that, I mean

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Speaker 1: a lot of journalists they look at things from the outside,

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Speaker 1: they observe, they talk to sources, But you actually started.

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Speaker 2: Playing with your own money.

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Speaker 1: Yes, why was that skin in the game, literal financial

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Speaker 1: skin in the game important? And then what do you

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Speaker 1: think it tells us about like broader decisions and learning

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Speaker 1: when we actually have a stake in something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so first of all, I felt like,

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Speaker 3: you know, I wanted to pull at George Plimpton just

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Speaker 3: like and just to actually like do the thing, because

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Speaker 3: I do think that that's really important. And it was,

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Speaker 3: you know, talking about getting out of your comfort zone,

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Speaker 3: something that you know something about. I knew nothing about poker.

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Speaker 3: This was a world that was totally foreign to me.

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Speaker 3: It's a very very masculine world. So I come from

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Speaker 3: the world of media, which already is pretty male centric.

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Speaker 3: And you know, my first job in media was as

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Speaker 3: a TV producer, so you know, you know how that is.

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Speaker 3: You know that world well, and then you get to

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Speaker 3: poker and you realize, oh wow, like in any given field,

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Speaker 3: anywhere between ninety six and ninety eight percent of the

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Speaker 3: field is going to be male. And if you get

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Speaker 3: a field where it's ninety six percent mail, all the

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Speaker 3: organizers are like, this is amazing, Like we crushed it, guys.

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Speaker 2: Look at the.

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Speaker 3: Number of women playing. This is so cool and so

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Speaker 3: like everything about it was just very different from what

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Speaker 3: I did. But I felt like the only way to

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Speaker 3: make this work is if I actually understood it, if

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Speaker 3: I actually learned it and saw like, is you know,

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Speaker 3: what is this thing? Right? If I just if I

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Speaker 3: just describe it, then it becomes you know, it's journalist.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you know, I don't become an astrophysicist. Just

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Speaker 3: because I'm interviewing you know, Neil Decrasse Tyson. I don't

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Speaker 3: suddenly decide to get a PhD in that. But this

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Speaker 3: was something where I felt like it could potentially be

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Speaker 3: a tool to decision making because of John Matt Nuyman,

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Speaker 3: as you mentioned, because of the Game Theorist, Yes, the

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Speaker 3: Game Theorist guy, because of what he wrote about poker

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Speaker 3: being able to teach you how to think strategically at

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Speaker 3: the highest level. And the reason that I had to

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Speaker 3: play with my own money I felt like I had

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Speaker 3: to was that from what I know in psychology is

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Speaker 3: that you actually have to have stakes be real in

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Speaker 3: order for learning to take place. People don't learn well

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Speaker 3: when you put them in an environment where, like you know,

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Speaker 3: they don't really care about the outcome. So whenever I

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Speaker 3: designed studies, and whether it was for you know, undergrads

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Speaker 3: or you know, I worked with everyone from undergraduate Columbia

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Speaker 3: students to Wall Street hedge fund people, portfolio managers, people

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Speaker 3: who have lots of money. You have to figure out

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Speaker 3: how do you actually make them have skin in the

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Speaker 3: game so that they care, so that they take this seriously.

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Speaker 3: For students, you know, I give them twenty bucks, right,

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Speaker 3: like great, it's amazing. And you know, all of the

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Speaker 3: all of the studies that we did, the better they did,

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Speaker 3: the more money they got, like it was actually real

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Speaker 3: financial outcomes. So we got them to perform really well.

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Speaker 3: They cared, They cared. H portfolio manager is like twenty

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Speaker 3: bucks not so much. So what we did with for

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Speaker 3: that was we had them compete against each other. We

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Speaker 3: actually like they kind of had rankings and then they cared,

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Speaker 3: Oh oh shit, like I better, I better do well

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Speaker 3: because I you know, I want to perform well. And

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Speaker 3: so you have to you have to figure out what

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Speaker 3: is something that makes this real. And my graduate advisor

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Speaker 3: was the late great Walter Michelle, who people might know

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Speaker 3: as the Marshmallow Guy, the person who could created the

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Speaker 3: marshmallow test, famous test of preschoolers originally in Stanford, the

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Speaker 3: Being Preschool huge study, huge study still going on, where

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Speaker 3: you know, put a people think marshmallow in front of

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Speaker 3: a kid. I say people think because it was all

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Speaker 3: sorts of things. You find out what's the treat that

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Speaker 3: that kid wants, and that's that's the treat, and then

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Speaker 3: see how long they wait. But I learned from that

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Speaker 3: that the only reason that that study worked and was

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Speaker 3: diagnostic was because you put them in a situation where

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Speaker 3: they wanted it and they actually cared. It was a

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Speaker 3: hot stimulus. If you put them in a situation and

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Speaker 3: it's not something that they really care about. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if you put money in front of a three year old,

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Speaker 3: like I would hope that they are like, I've, uh,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what what am I supposed to do

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Speaker 3: with this exactly exactly. Maybe I'll you know, make an

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Speaker 3: airplane or whatever it is if it's a particularly dexterous

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Speaker 3: three year old. But so you have to you have

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Speaker 3: to make sure that someone cares. And if it's not

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Speaker 3: your money, you know, it's very difficult to learn correctly.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I always tell people like who are

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Speaker 3: starting out who want to play booker, I was like,

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Speaker 3: I don't care. You know, it doesn't have to be

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Speaker 3: a lot of money. You can play micro stakes, you know,

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Speaker 3: you can play online for like one cent, two cent,

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Speaker 3: but it has to be real. Don't play for play money, right,

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Speaker 3: Don't don't do that because you're going to pick up

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Speaker 3: bad habits because you'll be like I don't care, like

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Speaker 3: I'm all in, Like let's just and what you're trying

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Speaker 3: to learn is that this is not gambling, right, This

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Speaker 3: is actually a highly skilled game of decision making, and

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Speaker 3: you have to try to make the best decisions you can,

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Speaker 3: and you care about it if there's money involved. And

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Speaker 3: I am so far from the first person to kind

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Speaker 3: of understand that you have to put your money where

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Speaker 3: your mouth is. One of the people I quoted in

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Speaker 3: the Biggest bluff was Emmanuel Kant, who almost became a

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Speaker 3: professional gambler by the way. We're We're happy, We're happy.

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Speaker 3: He didn't, but he had this absolutely incredible chapter and

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Speaker 3: defensive reason which is all about the need to incentivize

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Speaker 3: decision making. And it really stuck with me was this

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Speaker 3: scenario of imagine you go to a doctor. You say,

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Speaker 3: you know, hey, doctor, like there's something wrong with me,

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Speaker 3: like these aren't The doctor says, oh, like this, I know,

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Speaker 3: I know exactly what it is. Here's what it is, like,

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Speaker 3: here's your diagnosis. But what if you ask that doctor, okay, well,

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Speaker 3: how sure are you how much are you willing to

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Speaker 3: pay to say that? Okay, this is what I believe

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Speaker 3: ten dollars Obviously it wasn't dollars we're talking about con

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Speaker 3: but ten dollars, one hundred dollars, dollars, ten thousand dollars,

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Speaker 3: your wife, your marriage, you're happy, like, what what is

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Speaker 3: kind of what are we talking about? How certain are you?

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Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden, the doctor recalibrates and says, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: you know this isn't necessarily my area of expertise, Like

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Speaker 3: maybe you know you need a second opinion. Maybe I'm

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Speaker 3: only willing to like stake ten dollars on this, but

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Speaker 3: not even one hundred. And all of a sudden, your

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Speaker 3: diagnosis becomes a lot better and a lot cleaner because

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Speaker 3: you know exactly how much the doctor believes in what

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Speaker 3: he is saying.

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Speaker 1: That feels useful for any time you're trying to get

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Speaker 1: information or any sort of diagnosis. I mean, it could

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Speaker 1: be your car breaks and the mechanics is definitely be

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Speaker 1: how much would you yeah, what did you put it on?

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many different ways you can apply

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Speaker 1: that to daily life.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, and that principle has really I mean it's

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Speaker 3: something that Poker has then ingrained in me, but it

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Speaker 3: really has carried over into my into the way that

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Speaker 3: I think about my life. It's made me a lot

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Speaker 3: less confident in the sense of like being overconfident. Right before,

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Speaker 3: I'd be like, oh no, this is definitely this, and

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Speaker 3: now I'm like, wait, hold on. First of all, I'll

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Speaker 3: never say definitely because there's no such thing as one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent certain things. Then like, how how sure am

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Speaker 3: I really? And I've started caveating things and being like, well,

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Speaker 3: like like seventy five percent sure that this is that

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Speaker 3: this is right, but let's let's look right it's It

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Speaker 3: actually has made me kind of add a little decision

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Speaker 3: loop in my head that didn't exist before, where I

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Speaker 3: self fact check. You know, in the magazine world you

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Speaker 3: have fact checkers. You're like, ah, if I'm wrong, you'll

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Speaker 3: find it, they'll get it. Let me. Just like sometimes

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Speaker 3: you put something in to a piece because you're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'll look this up later, and then you kind of

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Speaker 3: forget and then they're like, where'd you get this? And

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Speaker 3: you're like, oh oops, you know it seemed right at

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Speaker 3: this time, but they catch it obviously. But when you're

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Speaker 3: not working with a fact checker, you got you have

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Speaker 3: to do it yourself. Yeah, And it's a really good

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Speaker 3: habit to have. It makes you, It makes you a

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Speaker 3: lot better, makes you a better friend. You know, when

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Speaker 3: you're not like, oh yeah, I'll definitely be there, you're like, well, like,

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Speaker 3: I'm you know, seventy percent to show up, Like yeah.

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Speaker 1: If I don't, when they go, are am I an asshole?

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Speaker 1: You go, you know, I'm sixty one percent sure you're

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Speaker 1: an asshole.

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Speaker 2: That's the more honest, honest thing.

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Speaker 1: I think what's important here too for people who are

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Speaker 1: not familiar with poker, and this this stat really surprised

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Speaker 1: me that you had in the biggest bluff. There was

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Speaker 1: a researcher you'll know who he was, where he came from,

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Speaker 1: or she looked at all these poker games online and

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Speaker 1: they found that the best hand only one like twelve

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Speaker 1: percent of the time.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So what does that tell us about.

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Speaker 1: Poker and why it's different than all the other games

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Speaker 1: I could go play in a casino, and then why

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Speaker 1: that makes it good for unique for decision making?

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Speaker 3: So what that tells us so every other game in

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Speaker 3: a casino. If you and I were to stop this

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Speaker 3: interview right now and go and drive to any casino

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Speaker 3: and you're like, Marie, I want to play blackjack or

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Speaker 3: whatever else. I don't gamble, So like, I actually don't

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Speaker 3: know what other games we can play, but I'm sure,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure, I'm sure we could do any of them.

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Speaker 3: You have to have the best hand to win, right.

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Speaker 3: You won't be able to be like, oh, I have

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Speaker 3: pluck jack and you know you cover your cards, pay

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Speaker 3: me and if you're convincing enough, the dealer pays you. Right, Right,

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Speaker 3: That's not how it works. Every single game in a casino.

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Speaker 3: You have to have the best of it in order

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Speaker 3: to get paid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the rule up ball falls where it's going to fall.

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Speaker 1: There's no other discussion.

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Speaker 3: There's exactly the outcome is the outcome. Poker is different.

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Speaker 3: In poker, you can win with the worst hand and

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Speaker 3: you can lose with the best hand, because it's not

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Speaker 3: about that. It's about the play. It's about the player.

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Speaker 3: And it's the only game where you're playing against someone else.

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Speaker 3: You're not playing against the house. You're playing against other people.

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Speaker 3: And if I can convince you that I have a

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Speaker 3: better hand than you have, you might fold the winner.

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Speaker 3: If I fail to convince you, you know you you

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Speaker 3: you might call me and be right, and I might

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Speaker 3: fold the winner because you know, I just don't know, right,

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Speaker 3: And I think that I might be beat and I

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Speaker 3: do that decision calculus and I lose. And the fact

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Speaker 3: that in all of these hundreds of thousands of hands online,

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Speaker 3: twelve percent of the time it was the best hand.

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Speaker 3: That's crazy, right, That tells you that over time. Now,

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Speaker 3: the reason that this particular study was so good is

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Speaker 3: because it was online and we have such a huge sample, right,

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Speaker 3: because you need a big sample because in the short term,

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Speaker 3: do you play poke?

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Speaker 2: I lech go no, maybe after this interview that who knows?

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Speaker 3: All right, So you and I could get a deck

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Speaker 3: of cards right now and play, and you might beat me,

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Speaker 3: even though you don't play Pokerguner's luck. Yeah, it's heads

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Speaker 3: up poker. There's a lot of variants. You just might

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Speaker 3: get hit with the deck. You might have just great

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Speaker 3: cards and you beat me. That doesn't mean you're a

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Speaker 3: better player than I am. Right, I can go right

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Speaker 3: now and play with Eric Sidell, who is.

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Speaker 2: My coach, great like one of the legends.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, so I could beat him. Doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: I'm a better player than he is. So any one game,

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Speaker 3: any one hand, anything can happen. The reason the study

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Speaker 3: is so powerful is it took hundreds of thousands of hands, right,

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Speaker 3: we have that volume, and volume is where the variance

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Speaker 3: kind of evens out in the long term. And you

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Speaker 3: see that over the long term that more skilled players

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Speaker 3: walk away with all the money. And you start to

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Speaker 3: understand how important small edges are. Right. If you tell me, like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this adds a one percent edge to you, I'm like,

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Speaker 3: that's huge. Oh my god, that's amazing, right, because over

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Speaker 3: time that one percent is going to be so incredibly important.

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Speaker 3: And poker teaches you that in a way that nothing

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Speaker 3: else in life really does, because, as you say, we

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Speaker 3: write it off right, like one percent, Okay, it's one percent,

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Speaker 3: But then you think about the numbers and you're like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, Like if you told me that some

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Speaker 3: disease or some surgery, some elective procedure has a one

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Speaker 3: percent complication, right, and millions of people do it, I

303
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Speaker 3: ain't doing it if I don't need it, right, right,

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Speaker 3: because you realize that one percent is either hundreds of

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Speaker 3: thousands or like depends it depends on what we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot of people, right, And so when you

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Speaker 3: start when you start realizing that, when you start making

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Speaker 3: those translations, you see kind of how how important those

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Speaker 3: small skill edges are and you see that in poker

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Speaker 3: once again skill, so over the long term, your skill

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Speaker 3: is going to win out. When I saw that study, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it is a crazy statistic. To this day, I still

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Speaker 3: I still don't quite believe it.

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Speaker 1: You and well, what this gets to speaking to our

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Speaker 1: speaking to our one percent stat is poker. It's a

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Speaker 1: sort of dance between I guess I would say reading

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Speaker 1: people sort but also probabilities.

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Speaker 2: Yes, now, despite your.

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Speaker 1: PhD from Columbia, you go in this going like I'm

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Speaker 1: not a huge numbers.

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Speaker 3: Person, not a numbers person at all, but.

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Speaker 1: You had to learn all these different probabilities. And you

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Speaker 1: read in the book how people are terrible with probabilities,

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Speaker 1: like we literally didn't evolve to understand them. And so

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Speaker 1: why is it important to understand probabilities in daily life,

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Speaker 1: like examples beyond absolutely how it can help us.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we make decisions all the time that involve

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Speaker 3: probabilistic thinking, and we make them incorrectly when we don't

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Speaker 3: understand what probabilities actually mean. And even by the way,

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Speaker 3: even statisticians often don't understand it in real life because

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Speaker 3: it's very different to you know, you can be someone

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Speaker 3: with PhD and statistics who understands probabilities. Sure, I can

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Speaker 3: explain the most complicated equations to you, and yet when

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Speaker 3: it comes to a decision that you personally are making

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Speaker 3: right now, you just don't translate it. Because when we learn,

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00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,120
Speaker 3: the human brain learns from experience and not from description.

337
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 3: As a statistician, all your knowledge is from description, right,

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00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,360
Speaker 3: It's from textbooks, it's from understanding these formulas. It's not

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Speaker 3: from actually viscerally experiencing it, living it in your case

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Speaker 3: exactly right, unless you play poker. We'll come to that

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Speaker 3: in a second. But but normally the human brain is

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Speaker 3: really bad because we do learn from experience, and those

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Speaker 3: experiences are incorrectly weighted in the sense that we never

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Speaker 3: get to experience kind of the full range, right, We

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Speaker 3: don't sample correctly, so to speak. So if this is

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Speaker 3: an example I use all the time because you know,

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Speaker 3: it's it's something that I think even now now people

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Speaker 3: are are like, oh, I don't I have no idea.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't even born yet. But like, if you were

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Speaker 3: in New York on nine to eleven, right, you're someone

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Speaker 3: who's probably going to overestimate the probability of terrorist attacks

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Speaker 3: or something happening, especially if you knew someone you know

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Speaker 3: who was in the towers or anything like that, or

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Speaker 3: if anything like that ever happened to you, you're going

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Speaker 3: to really overestimate that unless, like you person suddenly know

356
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Speaker 3: someone who died in the shower, really going to vastly

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Speaker 3: underestimate the risk of falling in a shower and dying, right,

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Speaker 3: and yet one is much higher than the other, exactly,

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00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 3: and yet in your mind it's just completely warped because

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Speaker 3: of the way that you experienced it, and so you're

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Speaker 3: going to make incorrect choices based on that. You might

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Speaker 3: avoid a destination, you might avoid doing something because you're like,

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Speaker 3: you know what, it's too risky, like I might get

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Speaker 3: kidnapped or I might you know, a terrorist might do

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Speaker 3: something to me. And you might, on the flip side

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00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,200
Speaker 3: of it, not make safety precautions for your aging parents,

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Speaker 3: for instance, in the shower because they're like, uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's totally you don't even think about it, right, And

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Speaker 3: it should be completely reversed, right, You should be actually

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00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,359
Speaker 3: waiting the risk backwards from what you're doing and making

371
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Speaker 3: your decisions backwards. So what probabilistic things in real life

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00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,880
Speaker 3: translates to is these sources of choices that sometimes it's

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Speaker 3: you know, non consequential, but other times it's life and death.

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Speaker 3: And oftentimes it's also a non consequential in the sense

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Speaker 3: of life and death. But sometimes it's like an important

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00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 3: financial choice, right where you don't make an investment because

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Speaker 3: you're like, oh, like you know, it's a little too risky,

378
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 3: but you don't actually realize that, no, you should take

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Speaker 3: this risk because it's going to pay out, like because

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Speaker 3: the expected value is so high that this is actually

381
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 3: worth it. Or you do something else where you're like, oh, well,

382
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Speaker 3: you know, let me, let me, let me do this

383
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 3: because it seems cool. You're like, no, this, you're just

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Speaker 3: wasting money, Like this is not what you should be doing.

385
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Speaker 3: So those choices just add up finance, health, personal life,

386
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Speaker 3: and relationships, just everything down the line. Everything revolves around

387
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Speaker 3: how do you understand the risk reward, how do you

388
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Speaker 3: understand the probabilities? And are you doing so accurately? And

389
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,160
Speaker 3: the answer is going to be no, ninety nine from

390
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Speaker 3: point nine percent of the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The health.

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Speaker 1: The health example I think is especially for my audience,

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00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 1: it's into health and wellness is really great I recently

394
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,959
Speaker 1: did a sub stack piece that was just looking at

395
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: the data on you know, there's this big trend and longevity,

396
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 1: and we all want to live longer. But when you

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Speaker 1: look at what actually kills people up to age fifty five,

398
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:29,119
Speaker 1: it's drug overdoses, it's you crashed your SUV because you

399
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,360
Speaker 1: were sending a text message. You it's all these things

400
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 1: that are very preventable, and yet people tend to obsess. Oh,

401
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,199
Speaker 1: like I saw this cancer study or whatever. But if

402
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:38,720
Speaker 1: you just look at the numbers, it's like, well.

403
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,680
Speaker 3: This is what's going to kill you time exactly what's

404
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 3: in your stack exactly?

405
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: So thinking about that, like, okay, what did the numbers

406
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,360
Speaker 1: actually say about my risks and health? And then how

407
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 1: can I use that to steer my behavior, because we

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00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,719
Speaker 1: tend to to your point, everyone probably knows someone who

409
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 1: got cancer distantly and died. To freak out about that.

410
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 1: Even if you're thirty in your risk of that is

411
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 1: just exceedingly well.

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00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you might be getting your full body scans, right,

413
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,880
Speaker 3: you might be paying however much two thousand dollars, however

414
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 3: much they cost to get the full body scan at

415
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 3: age thirty, and yet there you are in your ATV

416
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 3: like going you know, it's so funny, you know, because

417
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 3: speaking of that, I was a few years ago asked

418
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,400
Speaker 3: to do this activity and that involved going in ATVs

419
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 3: and my sister is a doctor, and she's like, don't

420
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 3: you dare She's like, are you I was like no, no, no, no,

421
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 3: don't worry. She's like, okay, good right, Like that, you

422
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 3: have no idea what the you are looks like and

423
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 3: what the what you're doing. And people are like, oh,

424
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,160
Speaker 3: but it's fun. I was like, well sure, but right, yes,

425
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 3: how fun is it?

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Speaker 2: Right?

427
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 3: And if you're someone who's obsessing over your full body

428
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,120
Speaker 3: scan and then you get in one.

429
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: And start drive to the full body stam place while

430
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,360
Speaker 1: you're sending text messages and messing with your exactly car

431
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 1: screen exactly, that's going to kill your way before this.

432
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. And people will engage in those sorts of

433
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 3: risky behaviors all the time and not even think twice

434
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,479
Speaker 3: about it. And yet they're like, oh, but I'm you know,

435
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 3: I don't smoke. Oh, but I gave up drinking, Like

436
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 3: good for you.

437
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: Well, this also gets to this idea that you have

438
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: in the book when good things happen to us. We say, oh,

439
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 1: I'm very skilled at this, this was all my doing.

440
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 2: Look at me.

441
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah when bad things happen, Yeah, cards didn't fall my

442
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 1: way today.

443
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 2: This is totally luck.

444
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: So talk to us about that, and how's that shapes

445
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 1: our decisions too.

446
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 3: There's an incredible study that was done by Ellen Langer

447
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 3: at Harvard. The title of the paper, I might get

448
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 3: it backwards, but it's something like heads I win, tails

449
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 3: its chance. It might be tails, I win heads its chance,

450
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 3: but that's the title of the paper. And it's about

451
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 3: this amazing study about the illusion of control, which was

452
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 3: ended up being the center of my dissertation, the illusion

453
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 3: of control. And we we actually, as a side note,

454
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 3: were able to recreate alan Ninger study perfectly. Like the

455
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 3: results stiff that's always good, still still hold up completely.

456
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 3: So what you do. And she is in the psychology

457
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 3: department at Harvard University at the time, was at Harvard University,

458
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 3: worked with Harvard students. This is important because these are

459
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 3: kids who are supposed to be smart. So that's why

460
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 3: that's why I'm stressing that. It's that it's Harvard, like

461
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 3: we're supposed to be keyword. So she had them participate

462
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 3: in a coin flipping study. Now before before we do this, like,

463
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 3: let me just set our parameters. Michael is coin flipping skiller. Chance.

464
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: That would be chance unless I get the heads and

465
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 1: I called it heads and that was my my my

466
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: though doing the right motion.

467
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 3: So so so we we can we can agree right

468
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 3: that coin flip is a coin flip. It's a chance.

469
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 3: So someone would flip a coin and you had to

470
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 3: guess whether it was going to be heads or tails,

471
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 3: and then the person would tell you whether you were

472
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 3: right or whether you were wrong. Now, the study was rigged,

473
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 3: as a lot of psych studies are, in the sense

474
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 3: that people were either told they were right a lot

475
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 3: early on, or they were wrong a lot early on,

476
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 3: or it was pretty evenly distributed. The number was always

477
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 3: the same right, so you were always right and wrong

478
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 3: the same number of times. They just kind of changed

479
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 3: where the where the distribution.

480
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 4: So fifty percent of the time, I wasn't fifty to fifty,

481
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 4: but yeah, they but they would say basically fifty to fifty.

482
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

483
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: Some of them them would say, hey, you were right,

484
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: you were right, you were right, you were right, and

485
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: then others wrong wrong, wrong, hey wrong again.

486
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 3: Yep, exactly exactly, and so like right, wrong, wrong, right?

487
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 3: You know, they how you think probability is going to look? Yeah,

488
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 3: And they found something really really interesting, which was that

489
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 3: the students, the Harvard students who were told that they

490
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 3: were right early on frequently would then response. So then

491
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 3: there was a questionnaire that you did at the end,

492
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 3: and there were questions like I am good at predicting

493
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: outcomes of coin tosses. They would say, yes, I am.

494
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 3: I would improve with practice, Yes I would if given

495
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: more time and you know, quiet to learn this, I

496
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 3: would be even more exceptional. Yes, absolutely, So they answered

497
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 3: this questionnaire as if it was a skill rather than

498
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 3: just absolute chance. And all it took was saying, oh,

499
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: you're right at the beginning, and all of a sudden

500
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 3: they exhibited what's known as the illusion of control, thinking

501
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: you're in control of something when you're actually not. And

502
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 3: that's why the hence the title of the paper. Right,

503
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 3: and it's a finding that has been recreated in different guises.

504
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 3: And we just we just coin toss, like we just

505
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 3: did literally a coin toss with Columbia students and same

506
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: exact thing.

507
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 4: Also a smart group, also a smart group, and you

508
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 4: just realize how prone we are to taking credit for

509
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 4: things that really aren't due to us or due to

510
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 4: anything we did.

511
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 3: We just got lucky, but we like to appropriate luck

512
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: when it's on our side. And it's such an easy

513
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 3: and such a human thing to do.

514
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: What's the takeaway for people? How to use them life?

515
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 3: So the takeaway is that you have to understand how

516
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: prone you are to this, and you have to get

517
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 3: used to acknowledging just how much of a role chance

518
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: plays in your life, and to asking yourself. So one

519
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 3: of the lessons I learned early on in poker was

520
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 3: it's actually very good for you if you don't do

521
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 3: well at the beginning, right, because it forces you to

522
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 3: get better. And poker players who get very lucky early on,

523
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: who end up making a lot of money, they often

524
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,719
Speaker 3: go broke right because they never learn that self calibration process.

525
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 3: They just think they're geniuses, right, that they're naturally incredibly gifted.

526
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: This reminds me.

527
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: So there was a study I think it was on

528
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: slot machine players found that what most correlated to a

529
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: slot machine gambler becoming a problem gambler was getting a

530
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: jackpot very early.

531
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: So that was like the.

532
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: One thing that could you know, a third time place slot.

533
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, i won one hundred thousand dollars.

534
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: I'm good at this. I got the right hand.

535
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, no, that's exactly right. And so what

536
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 3: this teaches us is that we want to get into

537
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 3: a habit of actually using that corrective process and trying

538
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 3: to think through our decision making when things are going well.

539
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 3: And that's much easier said than done, right to be like, wait, okay,

540
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 3: you know, let's pause for a second. This completely worked out.

541
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 3: This was wonderful. Was it because I'm smart and I

542
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: thought about this the right way or did the stars

543
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 3: just align in a way that it worked out for me?

544
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 3: Because poker is the best tool that I have found

545
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 3: to teach you to separate the process from the outcome

546
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 3: and to make you realize that the one is not

547
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 3: equal to the other. Right, you can have a great outcome.

548
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 3: You guessed heads correctly, Yeah, but that doesn't mean that

549
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: you had a good process. Like, there's no process right

550
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 3: in guessing heads or tails unless you know that it's

551
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 3: an unfair coin, unless you have some sort of information.

552
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: But in the absence of that, there's there's no process there.

553
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: So you know that it's all outcome, but our brains

554
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 3: just equate the two. So it's it's very it's a

555
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 3: very useful exercise to try to figure out, you know,

556
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: how do I separate?

557
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: Is this outcome blindness? Is that the term? Or is

558
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: that a totally different thing?

559
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 3: That is, it's a similar thing, But outcome blindness is

560
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 3: when you are making the decision, you just need to

561
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 3: not even think about the outcome, right, Okay? And why

562
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 3: is that? Because then you make the best decision possible. Right.

563
00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 3: You just have to try to figure out what do

564
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 3: I know? Right? My goal is to make the best

565
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 3: decision I can with the information that I have, and

566
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 3: the outcome is not up to me, right, the outcome

567
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 3: is out of my hands. How do I control what

568
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 3: I can? Right? And how do I let go of

569
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 3: what I can't control? I control the process, I don't

570
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: control the outcome. And so if you're too focused on

571
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 3: the outcome, then that might actually make you make the

572
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: wrong decision because you become too risk averse or too

573
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: risk seeking or whatever it is. You end up not

574
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: having a fully properly calibrated process right because you're you're

575
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: too busy maybe trying to avoid a bad outcome right,

576
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 3: or you're too busy trying to ensure that you get

577
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 3: like some minimally satisfying outcome. Right, you start you start

578
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: thinking of that a little bit too much, and it

579
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 3: starts feeding back into your decision process. Now I say that,

580
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: but there always exceptions, right in the sense that not

581
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 3: life isn't a poker game. Right, Maybe there's an incredible,

582
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: you know, gamble that you really should take because it's

583
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 3: really positive expected value. But if you lose, you can't

584
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,239
Speaker 3: pay your rent, Right, you shouldn't take that, right, Like

585
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 3: there you should you should realize that, you know, abstractly, sure,

586
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 3: but really all of these things that decision scientists call

587
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 3: decision biases, they're not biases. They're preventing me from you know,

588
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 3: losing my livelihood, losing my job, losing whatever it is.

589
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 3: So you always so you do need to caveat all

590
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 3: of these things to say, you know, there's there's theory,

591
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: there's practice, and sometimes you do have to think of

592
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 3: the outcome. Sometimes you do have to kind of play

593
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: through that because one of the things that you also

594
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 3: learn in poker is that you need to avoid the

595
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: risk of ruin. Right, You always have to make sure

596
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: that you can play again, because anything can happen in

597
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: one hand, right, anything can happen in one game, and

598
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 3: so you never ever ever risk it all if you're smart.

599
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 3: That's why some people go broke, because they're not smart.

600
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 3: When it comes to that, you always have to understand,

601
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 3: how do I ensure that I can play the long game?

602
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 3: How do I ensure that I'm in this for the

603
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 3: long term? How do I ensure that I survive? And

604
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: that's I think true of all great decision makers in

605
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 3: any walk of life.

606
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, hew finances, whatever.

607
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 3: Careeratly what exactly there's a full equation there where how

608
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 3: do I make decisions that make it so that I

609
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 3: can make these decisions for the long term and that

610
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: I'm not risking ruin right, that I'm not risking going

611
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 3: to zero now. And like you said, that's not just financial,

612
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 3: that is all all of these things. It's the suite

613
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: that makes up your life. And you constantly have to

614
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 3: think about that as you kind of move those different

615
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 3: lovers in your head and try to try to calibrate

616
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: where you want to be, what you want to be doing.

617
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: We're going to take a break and the Maria is

618
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: going to explain why paying attention is not only the

619
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: hack for poker, but also how to live a better life.

620
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: So the book is the biggest bluff. Subtitle How I

621
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: Learned to Pay Attention, Master myself and win attention comes first.

622
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: Why did it come first?

623
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 3: So for a few reasons. First, I mean the first

624
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: thing that Eric Saidell taught me when I started playing poker,

625
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: when I was like, what's the one thing you know,

626
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 3: what's the dumbest question you can ask, what's the one

627
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: thing I need to learn?

628
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: Tell me one thing I'm going.

629
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 3: To win exactly. But the one thing he told me

630
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 3: was absolutely brilliant. He just said, pay attention.

631
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: It's like very sien.

632
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: It is it is, He's very sid but it's very true.

633
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 3: And it's something that I have been writing about, thinking

634
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: about for basically, you know, my entire career. My first

635
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 3: ever book, Mastermind, is all about presence. It's all about mindfulness.

636
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 3: And this was before mindfulness was a catch term. I

637
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 3: used Sherlock Holmes as an example of mindful thinking, of

638
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: learning to you know, be present, be paying attention in

639
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 3: the real sense of paying attention, both seeing and observing.

640
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 3: And so it's something that I've always known and tried

641
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 3: to practice as absolutely fundamental to everything else. If you

642
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 3: can't pay attention, what are you even doing? Right in

643
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 3: a sense that that's what you pay attention to is

644
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 3: who you are, It's what you are, it's what populates

645
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: your brain. It's the things that you end up knowing,

646
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: it's the things you end up retaining remembering, it's your experiences,

647
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 3: it's your life. And it's so easy to not pay attention,

648
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 3: and it's so easy to hijack our brains and the

649
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: modern world. And you know, I've written about this ad nauseum.

650
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 3: You everyone has who thinks about it. The modern world

651
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: is just it's catnip for our brain wanted to instruct

652
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 3: exactly exactly, and the downstream effects of that are so bad.

653
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 3: And so, you know, I think that it's just you

654
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,479
Speaker 3: can't master yourself. You can't win if you don't first

655
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 3: learn how to pay attention. So that that has to

656
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: come first, and it is very zen because you do

657
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: have to learn to just really really be in the

658
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 3: moment and to have your brain just be engaged with

659
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 3: what you're doing, because otherwise, you know, if you're trying

660
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 3: to do multiple things. Britt about this too, it doesn't.

661
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 3: That's there's no such thing our brain that we can't multitask.

662
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 3: What we're doing is rapidly just task switching, and that

663
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 3: exhausts us. That means we're not fully paying attention to anything,

664
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 3: and that just makes us worse at everything. It's tough,

665
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 3: you know, But it's a lesson that you know, I

666
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 3: talk about, I give talks on, I write about, I've

667
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 3: written books about, and yet you find I find myself

668
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 3: being like, you know, let me just check my phone.

669
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 3: It's still it's very hard. It's something that you constantly

670
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: have to relearn and retrain yourself over and over.

671
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: Does the poker table force that for you because you're

672
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 1: not on your phone your life?

673
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: Or is it you.

674
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: Shouldn't be on your right you know? I actually so,

675
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 3: I have a love hate relationship with being on televised

676
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: stream tables. The one hand, I hate it because you're

677
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 3: giving away a lot of information because people see your cards.

678
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 3: On the other hand, I love it because you're not

679
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 3: allowed to have your phones or headphones, and so it

680
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 3: forces you to be fully present and so you end

681
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 3: up really paying attention to all of the nuances, everything

682
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: that's going on, which is what you should be doing

683
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 3: all the time, and yet it's so easy when you're sitting.

684
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 3: You know, I play tournaments, not cash games. So it's

685
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 3: not like I can get up and walk away for

686
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 3: an hour to take a break. I mean I can,

687
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 3: but I'm gonna lose. I'm gonna lose in the meantime

688
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 3: because it's not like I can be like, hey, guys,

689
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 3: you know, just continue on without me, don't you know,

690
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 3: don't blind me up. Doesn't work that way. In a tournament,

691
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: you have to play. And so when you're when you

692
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 3: have these insanely long days, you get tired, and there's

693
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 3: an urge to be like, oh, you know, let me

694
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 3: check my email, let me let me do this, let

695
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: me see what's going on, you know on Instagram, let

696
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: me like my friend's story, oh this, And you constantly

697
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 3: have to say wait, no, like put away your phone,

698
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 3: pay attention to what's going on at the table. And

699
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: it's true even when you're not in hand, because that

700
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 3: is actually prime time to gather information that other people

701
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 3: are missing. Because you don't have to focus on your

702
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 3: own cards, you don't have to think about how am

703
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 3: I going to play this? You can watch other people

704
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 3: exactly see what are they doing? How are they acting?

705
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 3: You know? How is all of this drama at the

706
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 3: table playing out? And it's you miss it if you're

707
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 3: on your phone, and yet you will. It's so funny.

708
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 3: There's a picture that was taken I think on day

709
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 3: one of the World Series here, and the poker media

710
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 3: keep using that picture over and over of me. And

711
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 3: I'm sitting there and my phone is in my hands,

712
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh no, this is a picture that

713
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 3: is being you know, every update about me. It's me.

714
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: I'm not looking at my phone, but I'm holding it

715
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: in one of my hands because I was probably just

716
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: looking at it, yeah, you know, or just about to

717
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 3: look at it. And it's it's so funny because and

718
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 3: I even on my substack, I even posted that picture

719
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 3: and I was like, this is funny. I'm not supposed

720
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 3: to be. I acknowledge it, I accept it, and I

721
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 3: did bad, but it's it's hard to not do bad.

722
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, So I have I have a question.

723
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: We kind of talked about how poker is this balance

724
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: of math but also reading people. We had a mutual friend,

725
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: Brian Koppleman. He was on a couple of months ago

726
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: and in Rounders, he has this famous tell with Teddy.

727
00:37:58,239 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: With the Oreos.

728
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: Because of your background in psychology PhD, Columbia, how are

729
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: you at reading people and spotting tells? Did that give

730
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: you an adge or now?

731
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 3: So multi layered question. First of all, there usually is

732
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 3: not an Oreo hotel. It's great for the movie.

733
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing, especially at your level.

734
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, and the better the better you get, the

735
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 3: higher stakes you play, the less that happens. Yeah. The

736
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 3: thing that I know from psychology, I know two things. One,

737
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 3: humans are very very bad at spotting deception about fifty

738
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: to fifty coin flip? Yeap about a coin flip. We

739
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 3: are also very bad at knowing when we're right at

740
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 3: spotting deceptions. So also we feel just as strongly when

741
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: we're right as when we're wrong. Again about fifty to fifty.

742
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: I know that to be the case. And I've written

743
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 3: a book about con artists and have spent a lot

744
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: of time with people who deceive at the highest levels

745
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 3: and have learned that man like, if someone's good at this,

746
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 3: you just don't stand a chance. And kind this absolutely

747
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 3: holy shit moment for me was when I was researching

748
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 3: the book. I ended up interviewing a woman who was

749
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 3: one of the subjects of Paul Ekman's study of super

750
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 3: basically light detector humans. People. Yes, people, There are a

751
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 3: handful of human beings who are just absolutely ludicrously good

752
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 3: at spotting, whether it's micro expressions or whatever it is.

753
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 3: But who can spawn when people are wrong? And she

754
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 3: was good enough that she was a consultant for you know, FBI, police, etc.

755
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 3: And she told me that when she's brought in and

756
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: it's you know, a psychopath or somebody you know who's

757
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 3: there's a certain type of criminal, and it terrifies her

758
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 3: because she has no idea, she doesn't know if they're long,

759
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 3: or she can't read them at all. And if someone

760
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 3: like that can't, then I mean, I'm not saying that

761
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 3: poker players are psychopaths, but they are people who are

762
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 3: used to hiding kind of there.

763
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've trained it.

764
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 3: They've trained it, and so in that particular context, you know,

765
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: it's very difficult. So I want to I want to

766
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 3: caveat that caveat what I'm about to say. With that

767
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 3: that said, there are certainly things that you can pay

768
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 3: attention to, and I do think that kind of my

769
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 3: training and my background can help me. One of the

770
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 3: physical things is so there's work that I that I

771
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: wrote about in the Biggest Bluff that was actually on

772
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 3: Poker Tells, and it basically showed that people pay attention

773
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 3: to the wrong things. That they showed footage of the

774
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 3: main event, and they showed either unedited footage where you know,

775
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 3: you just see everything except for the cards, footage just

776
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 3: of you know, shoulders up so you could just see

777
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: the kind of the faces, or just the hands so

778
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 3: like below your shoulders down. And they found that people

779
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 3: who saw the ununited footage or were fifty to fifty

780
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 3: people who just saw faces were actually worse. So they

781
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 3: they performed worse, and people who just saw the hands

782
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 3: were the people who performed the best.

783
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: What do you think that is?

784
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: So it turns out that there's a lot more information

785
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 3: in the hands than there is in other parts of

786
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 3: the body for a few reasons. One, you're you've heard

787
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 3: the term poker face, right. Have you ever heard the

788
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 3: term poker hands? I have not either, have I It

789
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: doesn't exist. So poker face, everyone knows right, control your face.

790
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 3: I sit at the table. I know I'm not supposed

791
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: to give anything off in my face. And that's why

792
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 3: when people wear sunglasses, I'm like, dude, you're hiding the

793
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 3: wrong thing, right, it doesn't you're actually hurting yourself because

794
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: you see a lot less with sunglasses on.

795
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: Your pass if. The sunglasses, the hoodies, the hats, they

796
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 1: hurt you.

797
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 3: Because you're you're not seeing stuff and your peripheral vision

798
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 3: is just shot. You're missing all of this information and

799
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 3: you're not hiding anything because your face doesn't really give

800
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: anything off. But the hands were not as used to

801
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,959
Speaker 3: consciously controlling. You're not thinking about it, right you People

802
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 3: are like, so, oh, I don't know what to do

803
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 3: with my hands. Yeah, yeah, exactly, but it But it

804
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 3: turns out that we do convey a lot of information

805
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 3: with how we bet, how we move, like all of

806
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: that stuff. So people who have zero training can tell.

807
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 3: And they had to say, like this, does this person

808
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 3: have a strong hand or not? Like that's it. That

809
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,959
Speaker 3: was the question wasn't like are they bluffing. They didn't

810
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 3: have to have any poker knowledge, just is this person

811
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 3: strong or weak? And it turns out that the hands

812
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: did have a lot of information, and there are other

813
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 3: things like it's easier to control your face than your

814
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 3: pulse for instance, and the hands you can you know,

815
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 3: you can see pulse. So people, you know, people who

816
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 3: cover up their necks, that is actually something because if

817
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 3: you're especially if you're a newer player. Yeah, but but

818
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 3: once again, that tells you something. But what does it

819
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 3: tell you? And this is what the problem is with

820
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 3: light detector tests see exact same thing, which is why

821
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 3: lie detectors are so incredibly inaccurate. It can tell when

822
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 3: you're uncomfortable, right when, when something's wrong? But why is

823
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 3: it because you're lying? Is it because you're telling the

824
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 3: truth but you're thinking about something else that's making you

825
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: really nervous? Is it because you're stressed that your kid

826
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 3: is running a fever? And like the more you sit here,

827
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 3: like the more stressed you're becoming. Why? Right, what is

828
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 3: the reason? And unless you have a baseline of behavior,

829
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: it's really really difficult to figure that out. So if

830
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 3: I'm sitting across from you and I see that you

831
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 3: know your your arteries are pumping and that you know

832
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 3: your your heart's beaten fast, is it because you're bluffing?

833
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 3: Or is it because you have a really strong hand?

834
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: And unless I see the outcome of that situation. I

835
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 3: don't know. But even if I see the outcome, it's

836
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 3: just one just one point, right, Maybe next time you're

837
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 3: just as you know your your heart is beating just

838
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 3: as fast, and it's for the opposite reason. And until

839
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 3: I have enough of a sample size, and until I

840
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 3: know what your baseline behavior is, using that would be irresponsible.

841
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 3: Right now, if I have no idea and like I

842
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: just need something to help me make my decision, Do

843
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 3: I want to use that as like an additional input? Sure?

844
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 3: But do I want to rely on that? Probably not.

845
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 3: And the things that I think that I'm better at,

846
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 3: which are the real tells, are how do you get

847
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 3: inside someone's head? Right? So, how do I pay attention

848
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 3: to the dynamics at the table to understand how someone

849
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 3: is thinking at any given moment. Maybe you're someone who

850
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 3: you lose a huge hand and it makes you, you know,

851
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 3: it puts it's going to put you on tilt? Does

852
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 3: the poker term for emotions getting into your decisions? But

853
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: how is it going to make you till maybe you

854
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 3: become too risk averse? Right because you don't want to

855
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: lose any more chips. You want to protect what you have.

856
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 3: But maybe you're one of those people who becomes too

857
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 3: risk seeking after because you want to get those chips back,

858
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 3: and you're much more likely to bluff. Maybe there's a

859
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: person who has raised you three times in a row,

860
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 3: and I can see you getting angry, so I know

861
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 3: that you know when you reraise them, you might not

862
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 3: have as strong a hand as you normally would because

863
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 3: you're just putting your foot down. And then I can

864
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 3: take advantage of that situation. So noticing things like that,

865
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 3: I think that is much more psychologically helpful than Oh,

866
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 3: you know, his left nostril twitched when he made that bet.

867
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 3: I think that means that you know he's not telling

868
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 3: the truth.

869
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to take a break, and then Maria

870
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: is going to tell us an insane story about tilt

871
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: that she experienced at this year's World Series. So tilt

872
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: is when you let your emotions get the best of you. Generally,

873
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: is it always negative?

874
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 3: No, tilt can be anything. So you can go on

875
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: tilt because you've won a huge hand. So let me

876
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 3: give you an example. Actually that happened to me earlier

877
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 3: this week. So I wasn't the one who tilted because

878
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 3: I don't tilt. Michael that's not true. That's not true.

879
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 3: Every single person tilts, and the moment you say I

880
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 3: don't tilt is you're in trouble. So this was the

881
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 3: five thousand dollars buy in six handed tournament, very big event,

882
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 3: like something something that people really care about World Series. Yeah,

883
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 3: so this is one of the side events. It was.

884
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 3: It was at the Paris Hotel, so I got into

885
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: a hand. It was a multi way pot, so more

886
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 3: than one person in the hand with a recreational player.

887
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 3: I know he's a recreational player because I talked to

888
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 3: people and I try to find out kind of what

889
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 3: they do and where they're from, because that helps me.

890
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: I'm a janitor and I'm an accountant.

891
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 3: You're that's well, you know, first of all, like I'm

892
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 3: a journalist, so to me, it's interesting and I've actually

893
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 3: found a lot of stories and a lot of people

894
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 3: like at the poker table, so like I'm genuinely trusted. However,

895
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 3: it also gives me good information, right, I know, you know,

896
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 3: if this is like a big deal for you, or

897
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 3: if this is if you know, if this is like

898
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 3: no big deal till I know exactly, it really helps

899
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 3: me figure out how you're playing. So this guy is

900
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 3: an amateur player who's only here for basically this one event.

901
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 3: You know it's a it's a big deal. And we

902
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: get into a big hand three ways, and I end

903
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 3: up on the turn, so the turn for people who

904
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 3: don't play pokers. When four cards are out in hold them.

905
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: That means there's one card still to come. And on

906
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 3: the turn I have the nuts, which means I have

907
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 3: the absolute best hand possible. No one can beat me. However,

908
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 3: it's a very wet board, which means there are lots

909
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 3: of draws available, and so you know the river card

910
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: could change that, and so I end up going all

911
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 3: in on the turn after a lot of betting, and

912
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 3: he ends up snapcalling obviously with a worse hand, and

913
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 3: another person calls, so we're all in three ways. This

914
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 3: is people insanely huge pot. I always say the movie exactly,

915
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 3: I obviously have the nuts, I have the best hand,

916
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 3: and both of them have draws. He's just so so excited,

917
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 3: and on the river it hits his draw and he

918
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 3: ends up knocking me and the other player out because

919
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 3: he has a slightly out chipped and you should see

920
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 3: like he whoops, he gets out of his chair, like

921
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 3: his chair, like it's just insane, you know. I'm like, okay,

922
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go redbuy like that. That was unfortunate. Yeah,

923
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 3: but he is so excited and I look him like

924
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 3: that guy even though he's now chip leading the tournament.

925
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 3: Because this was early on. This was like one of

926
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 3: the first levels and now he has three starting stacks,

927
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,919
Speaker 3: so that's a lot of chips. I was like, he's

928
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 3: going to bust in the next two levels, and he did. Really,

929
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 3: it was like, because Winter's tilt is a real thing

930
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 3: where some people when you went, I was like, if

931
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 3: that's his reaction, he's not going to be able to

932
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 3: hold onto those chips. And I hated to be wrong,

933
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 3: like I was, you know, rooting for him, use my

934
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 3: chips well and make it to the final table. But

935
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 3: sometimes times tilt can be very positive in the sense

936
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 3: that you're elated, you're so happy, but then it can

937
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 3: do weird things to you. It can make you think

938
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 3: that you can't lose. You start playing marginal hands that

939
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 3: you shouldn't be playing. You stop understanding the value of

940
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 3: your chips because you're like, ah, I can I can

941
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: gamble a little more because look at all these chips

942
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 3: I have. So you start calling raises you shouldn't be calling.

943
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 3: You start making raises you shouldn't be making. You start

944
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 3: getting yourself in situations that you should not be in,

945
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 3: and instead of growing those chips, they start shrinking and

946
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 3: shrinking and shrinking. And then you get frustrated because you say, wait,

947
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 3: I was the chip leader and now I have half

948
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: that that's terrible. I'm all in right, I need to

949
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 3: make it back. And suddenly you're out.

950
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 2: Where do you see that? In daily life?

951
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 3: That happened? I mean that happens all the time in

952
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 3: daily life. When things are going well.

953
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: And you're like, I am on a heater, I run

954
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: the world, and then all of a sudden something goes

955
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: bad and then you're like, no, I can recover, and

956
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: then you.

957
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 3: Do, and then and then and then exactly, it keeps

958
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 3: going bad and people. It also hampers your ability to

959
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,320
Speaker 3: react well when things go bad, right, because you start

960
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 3: getting I hate to put it this way, but it's

961
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 3: almost a sense of entitlement right where you're like, no,

962
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 3: but I deserve for things to be going well because

963
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 3: like this is and then you say it's not fair,

964
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 3: which are words you should just never ever say thank

965
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 3: you mom. You know, she hammered it into me when

966
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 3: I was growing up, but you know, when you're a

967
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 3: little kid. I remember coming home, I don't remember what happened.

968
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 3: I was like, it's so unfair. She's like, I never

969
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 3: want to hear you say that phrase, because the world's unfair, right,

970
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 3: And if your attitude is it's so unfair, you're gonna lose. Yeah,

971
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 3: your attitude needs to be Okay, this happened. What do

972
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 3: I do? Right? World's on fair, honey, Like, live with

973
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 3: it and advice it's such good advice. But yeah, when

974
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 3: but people start thinking it's so unfair, like I deserve

975
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 3: for things to be better, and it starts once again,

976
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 3: you start going on tilt in life, and once again,

977
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 3: it can come from positive things. People do, I think

978
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 3: misunderstand the concept to say, oh, it's only like when

979
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 3: bad things are happening. But in some ways, winners tilt

980
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 3: can be more dangerous because you're less aware of it. Right,

981
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 3: because when those negative emotions are easier to process in

982
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 3: the sense of being self aware enough to know that

983
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 3: the negative emotions are happening, But when the positive ones

984
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 3: are happening, you're just elated. You're just happy, right, and

985
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 3: you're not taking the time to say, wait, is this

986
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 3: influencing my decision process? A hilarious study was done with

987
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 3: Wall Street that showed that people's investing decisions changed when

988
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 3: the home team won.

989
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 2: So and people people, Yeah.

990
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 3: When the team you're rooting for wins, you start investing

991
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 3: differently on the whole. It's such a fun It's not

992
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 3: just wall Street. I'm using Wall Street as shorthand for

993
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 3: global stuff markets, for financial markets. But it's so funny

994
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 3: not matter, and yet it does, and yet it does.

995
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 3: And when your home team loses, like you start you

996
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 3: start just evaluating risk differently, And it's just it's the

997
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 3: funniest thing. Man. I wonder what happened when the Knicks

998
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 3: finally won Nixon five. I wonder what happened to us?

999
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: A lot of money got thrown into the market. We'll see,

1000
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: So your mentor yeah, Eric's sidel give us an idea

1001
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: of who rises to the top in poker, because I

1002
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 1: think if people are unfamiliar, they're thinking, oh, this is

1003
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: like it's a.

1004
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 2: Bunch of degenerates.

1005
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: So just gamble all day, like who what type of

1006
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 1: personality is doing really well?

1007
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, obviously there are gamblers in poker, and

1008
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 3: like there are everywhere else. But I've met some of

1009
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 3: the smartest and you know, most just interesting and intelligent

1010
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 3: people I've ever met at the poker tables. So Eric

1011
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 3: used to work on Wall Street. He used to be

1012
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 3: a trader, and then people who have not seen Rounders

1013
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 3: should see Rounders. That was the only poker background I

1014
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 3: had prior to embarking on the show Journey. The reason

1015
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 3: I asked Eric to coach me was because he was

1016
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 3: in Rounders Awesome. And you know, there was a scene

1017
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 3: where basically over and over Matt Damon, who's one of

1018
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 3: the main characters of Rounders, keeps rewatching this footage of

1019
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 3: Eric Sidell coming in second in the main event of

1020
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 3: the world series to Johnny Chan where Yeah, Eric, just

1021
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 3: as he has since told me, like he's like, oh

1022
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 3: I got outplayed, but he had top pair, like he

1023
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 3: actually had a good hand heads up. Anyway, we won't

1024
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 3: go there. But he is very humble and modest, which

1025
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,879
Speaker 3: is why he's still the best of the worlds. But yeah,

1026
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 3: so he used to be on Wall Street and you know,

1027
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 3: incredibly intelligent person, someone who has never gone broke right.

1028
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 3: People people say, oh, you know, I I've been broke

1029
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 3: three times and I've come back. That's not a point

1030
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 3: of pride. Like going broken ain't good and it means

1031
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 3: you did something wrong. I Caxton considered one of the

1032
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 3: best players in the world. Philosophy major from Brown University.

1033
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 3: You know, you end up meeting these There's a Harvard

1034
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 3: professor Brandon Adams, who you know is an incredibly good

1035
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 3: high stakes player. Like the other week, I was playing

1036
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 3: with someone who was an economic history professor and it

1037
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 3: was so amazing. I started asking him. I was like, oh,

1038
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 3: what do you specialize in? You know, Mesopotamia. I was like,

1039
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 3: how did you get into that? He said, well, I

1040
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 3: used to be an archaeologist, and I like all the digs,

1041
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 3: Like I got so into this that I, you know,

1042
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,479
Speaker 3: went for a PhD in history, but then I became

1043
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 3: fascinated by economic history. And he starts giving He's like, oh,

1044
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, like I'm giving you a lecture, Like please

1045
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 3: keep talking, this is fascinating, Like, tell me more about Mesopotamia.

1046
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 3: He's like, the reason there are sixty minutes in an

1047
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,760
Speaker 3: hour is because of Mesopotamia and how they counted and

1048
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 3: all and I was like, this is so cool, this

1049
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 3: is amazing. But you see just incredibly intelligent people who

1050
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: love the game right because they love the intellectual challenge.

1051
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 3: They love kind of what it does for them. I mean,

1052
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 3: one of the things that I love is that it

1053
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 3: has made me so much better at other elements of

1054
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 3: my life, and it has really helped me uncover a

1055
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 3: lot of the problems that I've had in my decision

1056
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 3: making process, in my kind of emotional control, and it's

1057
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 3: helped me start working on them because you're putting, you know,

1058
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 3: to come full circle from earlier in the interview, You're

1059
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 3: putting your money where your mouth is. So unless you

1060
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 3: work on it, you're going to lose, and that's not good.

1061
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:27,760
Speaker 2: We will break.

1062
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: And then Maria is going to describe why you can

1063
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 1: actually improve your luck if you focus on what she

1064
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: calls luck amplifiers. What's a luck amplifier? I love this

1065
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 1: idea in the book.

1066
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:50,240
Speaker 3: Luck is obviously just chance, right, It's just stuff that happens. However,

1067
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 3: our mental the way that we respond to luck, the

1068
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 3: way that we respond to bad luck, and the way

1069
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 3: that we frame it in our minds, really can help change.

1070
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 3: So if you're someone who you know gets unlucky, and

1071
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, man, Michael, you know, let me tell

1072
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 3: you this story about like this horrific bad beat. You know,

1073
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 3: I this this should always happens to me. You're like, okay,

1074
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 3: I am tuning out right, and I'm never going to

1075
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 3: have her here again. Now. If on the other hand,

1076
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 3: I was like, you know, this happened to me, but

1077
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 3: here's what I learned from it. And this is so

1078
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 3: great because you know, I am now in what I

1079
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 3: call the victor mindset as opposed to the victim mindset.

1080
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 3: You're like, oh, this is great. And I was like,

1081
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 3: you know, so I lost my job, but you know

1082
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 3: I learned all these great things. You're like, you know,

1083
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 3: next time someone has an opening, I'm going to think

1084
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 3: of Maria and I will actually mention her name because

1085
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:46,919
Speaker 3: you know she, you know, she seems like it would

1086
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 3: be a really good fit. And you've just amplified your luck.

1087
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 3: But it can also be this type of thing where

1088
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 3: you're in a positive mindset and so you start noticing

1089
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 3: more things, right, so you become luckier just because you're

1090
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 3: more aware, and so kind of luck comes to you.

1091
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 3: You're like, wow, I'm sut, I'm lucky, right, and sure

1092
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 3: that there could be someone walking right next to you

1093
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 3: who is experiencing all the same things, but they're not,

1094
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 3: and so they didn't get lucky. But you're the one

1095
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 3: who kind of uncovered that hundred dollars bill on the

1096
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 3: ground and all of these things. And so they feed

1097
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 3: on each other and they amplify each other, and so

1098
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 3: luck can be amplified in all sorts of ways, from

1099
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 3: the mental framing to just your awareness the situations you

1100
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 3: end up putting yourself in. And it's also an understanding.

1101
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 3: You know, everyone's going to go on good runs and

1102
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 3: bad runs in life. You know, that's just the way

1103
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 3: that it works. When I'm on a good run, how

1104
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 3: do I maximize that, right? How do I take advantage

1105
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 3: of the fact that right now I'm healthy. Everything's okay, right,

1106
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 3: I am. You know, my brain's functioning, I'm able to

1107
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 3: do all this. You might think, oh, you know, you

1108
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 3: just got knocked out of it, But you're incredibly lucky.

1109
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 3: I'm here. I get to play poker, like what I guess.

1110
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 2: The World series exactly.

1111
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 3: In the World Series, I get to you know, be

1112
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 3: thinking about making notes for my next book that I'm

1113
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 3: going to finish writing as soon as the says is over. Right,

1114
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 3: So you have to kind of have that mindset of

1115
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 3: I am so lucky to be here, right, I am

1116
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 3: luckier than so many other people, and like that, I

1117
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 3: think that attitude will will help bring more lucky your way,

1118
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 3: so to speak, Like I do want to be very

1119
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,479
Speaker 3: careful to you know, and how I phrase it because

1120
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 3: I don't. I hate the phrase you make your own

1121
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 3: luck because you don't like luck is luck. But you

1122
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 3: can put yourself in situations. Your goal is to put

1123
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 3: yourself in more situations to get lucky, right, give yourself

1124
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 3: more chances to get lucky.

1125
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: Well, and it changes your experience of day to day life.

1126
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: It's constantly pessimistic that and that's not fun in day life.

1127
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 3: It makes life so much better, right because if that

1128
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 3: I'm in the habit now of just I constantly reframe

1129
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 3: things and I try, and you know, people who are

1130
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 3: pessimists can find that annoying. They're like, stop telling me.

1131
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, look like okay, like you're allowed to experience,

1132
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 3: you know. It's not that I don't experience bad emotions.

1133
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 3: I do, of course, but then I actively start working

1134
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 3: on it and say, Okay, what do I learn from this?

1135
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 3: How do I get something positive out of this? And yeah,

1136
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 3: it's shitty, it happens, right, I don't think. I also

1137
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 3: hate the saying, you know, bad things happen for a reason. No,

1138
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 3: they don't like Sometimes they just happen and it sucks,

1139
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 3: and then you just have to like figure out, Okay,

1140
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 3: what do I do? It happened? I cannot change that.

1141
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 3: That's something I can't control. What I can control is

1142
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 3: my kind of mental framing of it. How I respond

1143
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 3: to what I do going forward. And that's it does

1144
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 3: make your life much better because it gives you back agency, right,

1145
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 3: it gives you back control over This is something that

1146
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 3: I can do. This is how I can actually make

1147
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 3: this experience at least get something out of it. Right.

1148
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 3: I'm not making it into a positive experience, but at

1149
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 3: least I'm figuring out, Okay, what do I do? How

1150
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 3: do I move on? And how do I you know,

1151
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 3: how do I put myself in a position where I

1152
00:59:58,880 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 3: can be luckier?

1153
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 2: I love it.

1154
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: We're going to break and Maria is going to describe

1155
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: when she decides how to bluff and how you can

1156
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 1: bluff to get ahead in life? How do you decide

1157
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 1: to bluff? So I how can a person use that?

1158
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: I feel like in my own career in magazines in particular,

1159
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: I saw people who are really good at bluffing, just

1160
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: like rise up the ranks of Now I will say

1161
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: the caveat is they didn't stay in positions a long time.

1162
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: They would be like, you know, they would talk a

1163
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 1: big game, then they'd show up and then they'd be

1164
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 1: gone in a year. But they would take a next

1165
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 1: higher position, so they're just kind of bouncing around.

1166
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 2: They fell upward.

1167
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, there's a So there's there's a difference

1168
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 3: obviously between bluffing and poker and bluffing in real life.

1169
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 3: But I think that, you know, a little bit of

1170
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 3: bluff is actually very good, especially for someone like me.

1171
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,439
Speaker 3: And I say especially for someone like me because one

1172
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 3: I'm female and changes the game.

1173
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: Yeah absolutely, you said, like, what is it for two

1174
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: four percent on average games?

1175
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 4: Women?

1176
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, you know that that really just that changes things.

1177
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 3: And I'm female both in poke rand in life, and

1178
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 3: it's just just a just the way I am and

1179
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 3: so and so you have to understand that, like perceptions

1180
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 3: of you are different and also things that society has

1181
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 3: taught us. And by us, I mean women are different

1182
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 3: than the way that you know, unfortunately society treats men like.

1183
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 3: We still live in a society that's very patriarchal, and

1184
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 3: that's that's just kind of the facts of life. And so,

1185
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 3: you know, you sometimes you'll find that, you know, woman

1186
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 3: has passed over for a job because when she's asked

1187
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 3: about her qualifications, she's honest about it. And there's a

1188
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 3: guy who comes in, as you say, and he's like, oh, yeah, absolutely,

1189
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 3: I've done this, I've done got yeah, I got this,

1190
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 3: and you know, gets hired. And the woman was probably

1191
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 3: more qualified and I'm talking theoretically of course, and could

1192
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 3: probably do a better job, but didn't bluff quite enough.

1193
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 3: And it's a it's this A little goes a long way.

1194
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 3: What I mean by that is you can actually take

1195
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 3: something from poker. And because for me, bluffing was really

1196
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 3: hard at the beginning. It's not something that comes naturally

1197
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 3: to me. So when I tried to kind of be

1198
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 3: aggressive and do it, it didn't work because people could

1199
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 3: see through it. And then I figured out how to

1200
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 3: kind of make it a natural part of how I

1201
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 3: play and do it in a way that was more

1202
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 3: in tune with my style.

1203
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: And so maybe don't want to talk about this because no.

1204
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 3: No, it's fine. It's fine. So you know, I might

1205
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 3: not No, no, I might not be kind of as

1206
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 3: aggressive as kind of people are like, no, you're like

1207
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 3: you're not being You're not bluffing enough. Okay, that's fine.

1208
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 3: Like I might not bluff quite as much as they do,

1209
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 3: but I do it in the spots where I might

1210
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 3: get more credit because I'm a woman, right, I try

1211
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 3: to use kind of I try to use my image

1212
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 3: and I try to figure out, you know, how do

1213
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 3: you see women when they play right? How do you

1214
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 3: see me as as a player, And how do I

1215
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 3: kind of how do I use that right? How do

1216
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 3: I massage my bluff? How do I change my approach

1217
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 3: based on you, right, based on how you see me?

1218
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 3: And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And I've also

1219
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 3: become much more comfortable with when it doesn't work. You know,

1220
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 3: you show that bluff with pride, right, because it helps

1221
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 3: you in the future, it's setting up table limit, it's

1222
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 3: doing good things for you as well. And not being

1223
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 3: kind of afraid to be caught, I think has also

1224
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 3: been very liberating and also learning the game more where

1225
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 3: I don't feel like it's a bluff, I feel like

1226
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 3: it's a correct play, right. I've reframed it and I've

1227
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 3: said I'm not bluffing. I'm making the play I should

1228
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 3: be making with these cards at this moment.

1229
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1230
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: Some of the smartest people I know, they purposefully come

1231
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: off publicly as almost you know, kind of laid back,

1232
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: good old boys, but they're just math geniuses.

1233
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1234
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of Dave Ramsey.

1235
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: He's got this like, you know, kind of Oh, I'm

1236
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: just kind of a Southern hick who talks about money,

1237
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: but he's like a math genius up in there.

1238
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 3: You know. It's so funny how people You know, this

1239
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 3: is something that I've thought about. I'm sure you've thought

1240
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 3: about it, written about, and as a psychologist, I have

1241
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 3: thought about all the time, the way that our kind

1242
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 3: of preconceptions and biases of what certain things mean, how

1243
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 3: they color how we see people. And it's you know,

1244
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 3: things like, you know, are you female, Things like do

1245
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 3: you have a Southern accent? Right? All of a sudden,

1246
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 3: like people might tell you more because they're like, oh,

1247
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 3: like you must not you know, Yeah, Oh, you're just

1248
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 3: like a You're just like a homeboy. You're like, you're

1249
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 3: so laid back, like with that southern drawl. How can

1250
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 3: you not be right? You're you're just so trustworthy and

1251
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 3: and it's so funny. And you can learn to manipulate

1252
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 3: those types of signals that have absolutely nothing to do

1253
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 3: with reality. But and yet the stereotypes, kind of the perceptions,

1254
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 3: those those learned things really do affect our behaviors.

1255
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 1: I will start to land the plane because I want

1256
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: you to get back to plant broker. Two final questions.

1257
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: First one is where's an instance of in your life

1258
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 1: where the lessons you learned from poker enhanced it or

1259
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: change your decision make in some way that ended up

1260
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 1: in a better outcome.

1261
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 3: So one that I talk about frequently is kind of

1262
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 3: is financial and negotiations. So I'm not going to talk

1263
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 3: about that now because that's very obvious, right, that it's

1264
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 3: made me better at negotiating.

1265
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 2: But yeah, have a great anecdote about that in the book,

1266
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 2: by the way.

1267
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, but one that is less obvious. So poker teaches

1268
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 3: you that sometimes you just need to walk away, right,

1269
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 3: that sometimes the best play is folding, and that if

1270
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 3: you keep holding onto a hand because it was really

1271
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,919
Speaker 3: good before. And you don't learn to let go, you're

1272
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 3: going to go broke. Right, you could have pocket aces,

1273
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 3: single best hands, and then you know should happens, and

1274
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 3: your pocket aces are just another pair that now have

1275
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 3: just no relation to the board. And there are some

1276
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 3: people who just they cannot fold sunk cost fallacy. Right,

1277
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 3: I've already invested so much money into this that you

1278
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,040
Speaker 3: know I can't walk away, Yeah, exactly, and you go

1279
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 3: broke learning to that the sun cost fallacy really is

1280
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 3: a fallacy, right, that you should not be putting good

1281
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 3: money after bad, good time after bad, good emotional energy

1282
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 3: after bad, because as we've already said, you can't change

1283
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 3: the past, but you can change the future, right, you

1284
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 3: can ask you can change how you're acting right now.

1285
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 3: And so everything you've already done, all the money you've invested,

1286
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 3: all the emotional energy, whatever it is that's gone, you

1287
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 3: can't change that, but you can change your action now.

1288
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 3: And if something that used to be the right decision

1289
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 3: is no longer the right decision, walk away. And that

1290
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 3: has been such an unlock in my life. I have

1291
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 3: ended up. I won't name any names, but there are

1292
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 3: a few frenemies that I've carried through a lot of

1293
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,479
Speaker 3: my life, and this enabled me to just walk away

1294
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 3: from those relationships. Yeah, I was like, you know what,

1295
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 3: I'm done, you are no longer going to be a part.

1296
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 3: And before it was so hard because you're like, I've

1297
01:06:57,080 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 3: known you for so long, and then you realize, you know,

1298
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 3: this person is not good for me, hasn't been for

1299
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 3: a long time. I just need to fold. I need

1300
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 3: to walk away, and that power to just do that

1301
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 3: in all areas of your life. But I think so

1302
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 3: many people need that nudge in the personal area. Right.

1303
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 3: Do you know how many people do you know who

1304
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 3: are in bad relationships or who ended up getting married

1305
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:22,480
Speaker 3: when they should have just split up because they're like

1306
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:25,080
Speaker 3: or have a kid even though they should have gotten divorced,

1307
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:28,479
Speaker 3: because they just keep just keep putting good time after

1308
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 3: bad and they're like, oh but we've been together for

1309
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,960
Speaker 3: so long, we you know, no, Okay, Well things change.

1310
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, totally. I love it all.

1311
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: Right, final question, I think I think this is correct.

1312
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 1: Koppleman is doing a Vegas show.

1313
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 3: Yes, it's called The Roman.

1314
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 2: The Roman. It's going to be on Netflix, and you're.

1315
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 3: Helping yeah, it's going to be on Netflix.

1316
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: I tell me, can you tell us anything about it

1317
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: before we go?

1318
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 3: No, I can say that I was a consulting producer,

1319
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 3: so I was in the writer's room for it. Oscar

1320
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 3: Isaacs starring Alec Baldwin's and it's going to be It's

1321
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 3: going to be rate. It's about, you know, the high

1322
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 3: stakes world of Vegas casinos and I'm really excited for it.

1323
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 2: Amazing. And then your next book comes out next year.

1324
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 3: We hope it does not have a publication date yet,

1325
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 3: but yes, yes, Scott Scott's my own while I will

1326
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 3: I will get this. We hope it will be out

1327
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 3: next year. It's about cheating in games.

1328
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 2: I love it.

1329
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:24,679
Speaker 1: Well, Maria, We're gonna let you get back to taking

1330
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,639
Speaker 1: money off people hopefully, and I hope you go far.

1331
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Michael, it's been an absolute pleasure.

1332
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 2: That is a wrap.

1333
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: Thanks for checking out the show, and thanks to Maria

1334
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 1: for dropping into the studio, and good luck.

1335
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 2: To hear it this year's world series.

1336
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:38,600
Speaker 1: As always, we're in your feed twice a week, so

1337
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 1: please keep an eye out for more. Give us a review,

1338
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 1: hit subscribe helps. The show also helps you know when

1339
01:08:43,320 --> 01:08:45,760
Speaker 1: new episodes are coming out and speaking of betting, I

1340
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 1: bet you won't download the iHeart app which gives video

1341
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 1: of this show for free. As always, have fun, don't die,

1342
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: and go all in once in a while.

1343
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 2: Kla Scot