1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: Friends Media As. Last week, we talked about how black 3 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: artists have used their work to speak out about wars 4 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: around the world, and we want to continue the conversation 5 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: because our cultural work demands that we train our art 6 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: and hearts on solidarity and freedom. That said, today we're 7 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: specifically talking about protest songs that were written in response 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: to social issues or in alignment with social movements. 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 2: I'm Eves and I'm Katie in today's episode Music Is 10 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 2: for Movement. 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: There are countless protest songs that were born out of 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: so many different movements. Musicians like Bob Marley, Nina Simone, 13 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: Marvin Gay, Billy Holiday, Gil Scott Heron, and Tracy Chapman 14 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: wrote and performed songs that condemned lynchings, opposed poverty and 15 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: police brutality, encouraged revolution, and called for freedom. 16 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: Black people use these songs as tools for morale and 17 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: calls to action and resistance movements around the world, like 18 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: the civil rights movement in the fight against apartheid in 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: South Africa. Some of these songs can be traced back 20 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: to their creators. Some are of unknown origin and transformed 21 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: with time. They all serve to document people's struggles and 22 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: express their descent and emboldened protesters. What do you think 23 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 2: is the difference between a protest song and a song 24 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: that talks about politics. 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: So a lot of times protest songs that do have 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: political messages and messages when it comes to blackness, of 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: pro blackness and like anti racism. So I think the 28 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: line between what is a protest song and then what's 29 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: something that has political message or socio political messaging can 30 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: get kind of blurry sometimes. I think it's not that 31 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: big of a deal, you know, to like call something 32 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: that somebody else might not call a protest song, to 33 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: call it a protest song. I think that protest songs 34 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: are in response to injustices. They have something to say 35 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: about those injustices. They are clear in their delivery of 36 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: that message, and they intend to alert other people to 37 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: whatever the injustice is and their response to it. 38 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 2: I struggle with this a little bit because I think 39 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: the moment that we've found ourselves in in the past 40 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: couple years has been great fodder for a lot of 41 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: music that is in response to injustice. And then you 42 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: look at these songs by these artists and you're like 43 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: you're saying the right things, you're wearing the right clothes, 44 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 2: you're putting up the right hands. But is this really 45 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: a protest song? This is really like an anthem that 46 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 2: the people can use. And I don't know the answer 47 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 2: to that. Like Beyonce has Black Parade, right, she's talking 48 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: about like time for another march, I'm gonna let my 49 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: hair shrivel up. 50 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 3: I'm gonna dread it, girl. 51 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: But it's like, baby, you are a billionaire capitalist who 52 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 2: stands for nothing but yourself. 53 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: So in your mind, somebody has to be worthy of 54 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 1: creating a protest song. Because what I think when you 55 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: say that is that like questioning the validity of someone's 56 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: status as a freedom fighter if they have something called 57 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: a protest song, Because people who have protest songs are 58 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: not necessarily protest musicians, Like that isn't the only kind. 59 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: Of work they do. 60 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: And in my mind, I don't think that a person 61 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: needs to qualify as a freedom fighter or a resistance 62 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: leader or an activist even to. 63 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 3: Have a protest song. 64 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: Yes, and of course I give people length to learn 65 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: things and to grow and to change their stances on things, 66 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: of course, yes, But I do think what you say 67 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: is like, it's an interesting thought because you use the 68 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: word use, like how are we going to use this song? 69 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: And I do think there is function to protest songs, 70 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: but that function sometimes is just like a raising of 71 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: consciousness and a raising of. 72 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 2: Spirit, right, But I don't think using Beyonce as an example, 73 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: who I do like Beyonce. I've been down for since 74 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: the ninety nine to two thousands. Okay, I was at 75 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: the tour, Okay. However, I don't think you can say 76 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 2: that like Beyonce is raising consciousness, like you have to 77 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: be conscious to raise conscious Like she knows what she's 78 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: doing as far as like the marketing, like the Black resistance, 79 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: like the you know, dressing up like a black panther, 80 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: you know. Quoting Malcolm X, she says she's a little 81 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 2: Malcolm little Martin mixed with Mama Tina. No, Like, you 82 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: don't have the politics of those men, and that's fine. 83 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: A lot of people don't have those politics, right, A 84 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 2: lot of people aren't that article. But you, as a 85 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: billionaire capitalist, that's just not you. And you don't have 86 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: to pretend that that is you. So I do think 87 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 2: she was like making black parade as like, oh, this 88 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: is gonna have the streets talking like this is what 89 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: the poors are gonna sing as they march with their 90 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: hands up asking the police not to shoot them. 91 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 3: That's what I think. 92 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: But I feel like the intention there has to be 93 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 2: some goodwill, good faith in making of a protest song. 94 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: It can't be just like a cash grab clout grab. Yeah, 95 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 2: and that's what I think we've seen, and not just Beyonce. 96 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: Future has a song March Madness, and on the there's 97 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: only one line, but he was like, I'm an activist now. 98 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: He was like, all these cops shooting niggas tragic. It 99 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 2: is like whoa Future took a stance on cops shooting niggas. 100 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: It was just like, no, I mean sure, but like 101 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: that does not make a protest song. 102 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to guess that the rest of the lyrics 103 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: that that line is couched in have nothing to do 104 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: with protests, nothing in min So we can't call that 105 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: on a protest song. But I was thinking when you 106 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: said that that it definitely is something when you're telegraphing 107 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: that something is a protest song. But for somebody to 108 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: be like this song means something, let me put it 109 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: out and let me tell y'all that it means something 110 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: versus just letting the work speak for itself for two 111 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: different things. It's like going somewhere and telling everybody, I'm 112 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: a gigster. 113 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 3: Look at me. 114 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: I mean, like, because you have strange fruit. And I 115 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: think it's very clear, like this is a song against lynching, 116 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 2: and I think she really was against lynching. But I 117 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: don't know if like in today's time, you can say 118 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: like you're really against the things that you like actively 119 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 2: benefit from. Like Billy Holliday isn't benefiting from lynching, but 120 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 2: the billionaire class is benefiting from the police force, right 121 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 2: because the police are here to protect property and that's 122 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: what you have a lot of. So you're making these 123 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: songs talking about like marching against police brutality, and you're 124 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: having music videos where you're staying on cop cars. But girl, 125 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: you know you need them cops. 126 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: Protest songs are testimonies. They're manifestos for liberation, their love 127 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: songs for the people hurt by the actions that they're condemning, 128 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: their elegies for people who perished in the fight, and 129 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: their invitations to uprising. 130 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: So today we're honoring the role that protest music played 131 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: in freedom struggles and the musicians who made it. 132 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: How gatekeepers and tastemakers have responded to black folks protest 133 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: songs is telling. When power is present, the response is 134 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: often fear. Take Strange Fruit, sung by Billie Holliday and 135 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: written as a poem by Abel Mira pol. Her record company, Columbia, 136 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,679 Speaker 1: wanted nothing to do with the song, which is about 137 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: the horror of lynching. Once she did get it recorded 138 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: by Commodore Records in nineteen thirty nine, some radio stations 139 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: refused to play it, and of course the US government 140 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: couldn't get with bill singing about her opposing a practice 141 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: that it supported and protected because it got civilians to 142 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: do its bloody bidding. They understood the potential of the 143 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: song to do the exact thing that scared the most, 144 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: arouse awareness and action that would result in the status 145 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: quo shifting. So the FBI found a reason they could 146 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: put on paper to hunt her drugs the fed's old 147 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: friend and had her sent to prison from heroin they 148 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: planted on her. When she got out, she couldn't play 149 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: jazz clubs anymore. But Strange Fruit pierced through the walls 150 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: of the prison that people had tried to create for 151 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: the song. 152 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 2: Despite the government and other detractor's best efforts to bury 153 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 2: the song, Strange Fruit became Billie Holliday's best selling record. 154 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: The attempted suppression of the song only served to help 155 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: it transcend the barriers of time and space. Many singers 156 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: have since performed their own versions of Strange Fruit, and 157 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: it left an indelible mark on the genre of blues 158 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 2: and protest songs. 159 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 3: That's right. 160 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just about how many people listened to 161 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: the record, or or how many people covered it, or 162 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: how many prized lists or halls of fame that the 163 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: song made it into. It's also about how copies of 164 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: the record were sent to US senators as anti lynching 165 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: bills struggled to make their way through Congress. It's about 166 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: how Strange Fruit was a sacred song of the anti 167 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: lynching movement and a potent reminder of black suffering, born 168 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: on the eve of the Civil rights movement. 169 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: And when we come back, we get into the Civil 170 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 2: rights movement, a movement so many protest songs grew out of. 171 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 2: When I think of protests in the fifties and sixties, 172 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 2: I think of music, music and the civil rights movement 173 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 2: are interconnected in my mind because chanting and singing were 174 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 2: such huge parts of how activists chose to express their frustration, anger, 175 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: and collective spirit. I think of this little light of mine, 176 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: we shall not be moved, and woke up this morning 177 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: with my mind stayed on freedom. 178 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 4: We shall not, We shall not be moved. We shall not, 179 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 4: we shall not move my good dream. 180 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 3: That's magic. 181 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: I love freedom songs like the ones you mentioned, Katie, 182 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: because they have such a long history. They've been touched 183 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: by so many hands and have been amended to fit 184 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,599 Speaker 1: different uses over time. Before they were sung during the 185 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: Civil rights movement, they were labor union songs, gospel songs, 186 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: and spirituals that enslaved people sang when working or at gatherings. 187 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: To me, it feels like they've grown so immensely powerful 188 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: because they've consumed the energy of all of the souls 189 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 1: and struggles that they supported. But I also like the 190 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: protest songs that have more modern origins, the ones that 191 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: have artists we can name and thank for the great 192 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: emotion in life their work brought to the movement. Sam 193 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: Cook wrote A Change is Going To, a swelling and 194 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: soulful song about Black Hardship and Hope, and it was 195 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: released in nineteen sixty four, the same year that he 196 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: was murdered. He only played it in public for a 197 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: live audience once on Johnny Carson's Tonight's Show, but the 198 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: song absolutely outlived him through the civil rights movement. 199 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 4: Sam will be back. 200 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,599 Speaker 3: At course of the show, he sings well Over and 201 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 3: a Fine Arrangement that black lives. 202 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: This song is definitely one that has many lives. People 203 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 2: have continued to sing it or quote it in settings 204 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: that feel like they're about progress and positivity, even when 205 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: the cause is not about black folks, or it is 206 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: and its impact is questionable. I'm thinking of Beyonce singing 207 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 2: it back in twenty thirteen at a benefit concert for 208 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: Time for Change and initiative Gucci started to advocate for 209 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: gender equality and how the establishment has used it in 210 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: political arenas, like when Betty Levette and John bon Jovi 211 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: sang it at Barack Obama's inauguration in two thousand and 212 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 2: nine and when Jennifer Hudson sang it at the twenty 213 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: twenty Democratic National Convention. 214 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 4: But I know. 215 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 3: Come, I think it's. 216 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: Really indicative, just like of how black art is co opted. 217 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 2: You take the most radical thing you can and just 218 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: like wash all the blackness off of it, and they're like, 219 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 2: here you go, it's for everybody now. 220 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: And to add salt into the wound. It's born out 221 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: of black people's pain because this song is specifically in 222 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: response to Sam Cook's experiences. He dealt with segregation, he 223 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: dealt with being turned away from hotels, he dealt with 224 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: his own frustrations and the interpersonal experiences that he had 225 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: with racism, and with violence due to racism, and with 226 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: exclusion due to racism. So thinking of all of that 227 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: being the foundation of this song and then seeing these 228 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: institutions and systems using the song to prop up their 229 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 1: messages of positivity, it's pretty icky. 230 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I can see even if like racismism just 231 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: wasn't a thing anymore, like black people didn't deal with 232 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 2: anything negative related to being black, and then you want 233 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 2: to use this song. It's like, see what happens when 234 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 2: you have like a song like this that can really 235 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 2: like institute some change, but black people still dealing with 236 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: the same stuff. Like no, you're not seeing a white 237 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: only sign, but buss believe like there are places that 238 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 2: are white only and black people can't get into them. 239 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 2: Black people will get like physically harmed for doing certain 240 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 2: things out in public. Black people will get killed for 241 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: doing regular things out in public in their own homes. 242 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 2: So to use this for like a Gucci campaign or 243 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: for the DNC, or even for Barack Obama's inauguration, which 244 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: I feel like we're all a little silly back. 245 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 3: Then, Why do you say that. 246 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: I feel like we all did this because Barack Obama. Yeah, 247 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: I think we were like, Oh, black man's gotta help us, 248 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: you gotta lift us up. 249 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: So the song A Change Is Gonna Come is more 250 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: mouldable than strange fruit. It's anti segregation and anti racism protests, 251 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: is couched in a format that's a little bit more 252 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: digestible for the masses. The line that specifically addresses segregation, 253 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: I go to the movie and I go downtown, somebody 254 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: keep telling me don't hang around wasn't included in the 255 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: single version of the song, but Cook did write it 256 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: as a response to his experiences as a black man 257 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties US. The song, with his grand 258 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: horns and strings and theatrics, gave civil rights activists an 259 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: anthem that helped them remember why they were fighting and 260 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: inspired more faith to keep pushing. So the civil rights 261 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: era was a magical time for protest music. And one 262 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: woman we have to mention in this context is Odetta, 263 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: who has been called the voice of the civil rights movement. 264 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: She's saying at the March on Washington. 265 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and at many other demonstrations in the nineteen 266 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: fifties and sixties. She was a musician who we well 267 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: could dedicate an entire episode to on her own. But 268 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: she sang folk songs and ballads and blues she learned 269 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: from old spirituals and work songs and prison songs. When 270 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: explaining why she thought work songs were liberation songs, she 271 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: said the following in a New York Times interview. Those 272 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: people who made up the songs were the ones who 273 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: insisted upon life and living, who reaffirmed themselves. They didn't 274 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: just fall down into the cracks or the holes. 275 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: Seems like a through line in these songs is the 276 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 2: will to live despite the anguish that has come before 277 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: and the uncertainty of the future. 278 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's sadness, there's exhaustion, there's resentment, there's fury, and 279 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: there's love. There's willpower, and there's perseverance. There's a song 280 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: on her first solo album, Odetta sings ballads and blues, 281 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: known as the Spiritual Tripsogy or the Freedom Trilogy. It's 282 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: made up of the spirituals o Freedom, come and go 283 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: with me, and I'm on my way, she sings, and 284 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: before I be a slave, I be buried in my 285 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: grave and go home to my Lord and be free. 286 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: You know, you'll find that a lot of the lyrics 287 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: are simple and repetitive, so they become second nature, as 288 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: familiar as skin. You can soak them up a lot easier, 289 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: and then it becomes natural to focus on the feeling. 290 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: In an interview for the National Visionary Leadership Project, Odetta 291 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: talks about how folk music was central to the civil 292 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: rights movement. She says they gave protesters strength and courage 293 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: to go into their demonstrations. There was a magic about 294 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: it being music rather than say a sermon that made 295 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: people pay, embodied attention that allow people to really carry 296 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: that strength with them as they marched. 297 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 5: There are people who come and say, I'm tired of 298 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 5: this preaching to the choir, Well, who else are you 299 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 5: going to preach to? They're the ones that keep trying 300 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 5: and trying and working and working, and they need to 301 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 5: be encouraged and reminded of spirit. 302 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: Odetta has spoken about how the work music she studied 303 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: revealed to her stories of black people and black life 304 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: that weren't apparent in mainstream narratives, and when she sang 305 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: those songs like she wanted to, she was better able 306 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: to deal with her feelings of rage. She said in 307 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: the book keep On Pushing Black Power Music from Blues 308 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: to Hip Hop by Denise Sullivan, I could get my 309 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: rocks off within those work songs and things without having 310 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: to say I hate you and I hate me. Odetta 311 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: said that the folk songs quote helped me see myself 312 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: instead of waiting for someone to look at me and 313 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: say I'm okay. 314 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 3: Yes. 315 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: Protest music can raise awareness and be a call to 316 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: collective action, and it can help us better understand and 317 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: reckon with our shared experiences. But it can also hit 318 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: on such a personal level, help us tap into layers 319 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: of trauma and optimism that we had not yet touched, 320 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: help us process, help us heal so that we can 321 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: be prepared to fight with our minds and our bodies 322 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: and our spirits. 323 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 2: When of the things about the civil rights movement. When 324 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: you see the marches and you see the people like 325 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: singing these songs, they all aren't like super sad, you know. 326 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 2: Some of them are very lively and empowering, and they 327 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 2: have the protest message in them. But if your marching, 328 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 2: you know, twenty thirty fifty miles down the road, you 329 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 2: can't be singing sad ballads all day, you know what 330 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: I'm saying. You gotta get a little turn up. You 331 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: gotta you know, be clapping on the ones and the twos. 332 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 3: I didn't think that's where you're going with that. 333 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: My mom was like, I'm not gonna have the breath 334 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: control to keep singing while I'm walking like that. 335 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 3: I'm not trying that way. 336 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: No, I mean like cause, like she said, it's like healing, 337 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: you know. But I think it's more productive to have 338 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 2: songs that you know, aren't just like, oh I hate this, 339 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 2: I hate what y'all doing in me, but speaking to 340 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: the promise of the future, like what we're going to 341 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: have once we are free, Speaking positivity over your life 342 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 2: and the life of other black people, while also acknowledging 343 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 2: what's going on for sure, but also having that upbeat 344 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: vibe going as well, I think that's what she was 345 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: speaking to. 346 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 3: We got to go to a break, but we'll see 347 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 3: you again soon. 348 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: Of course, the United States wasn't the only place where 349 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: music played a crucial role in protest against injustices and 350 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: solidarity building. In South Africa, protest songs were used in 351 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: the resistance against apartheid, the legal system of racial segregation 352 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: in South Africa from the nineteen forties to the nineteen nineties. 353 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: Music that was critical of apartheid helped bring attention to 354 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 2: the resistance efforts in South Africa, and it helped influence 355 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: the dismantling of oppressive government policies. I'm sure some of 356 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: the themes and freedom songs were similar to the ones 357 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 2: and protest songs from the Civil rights movement. 358 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: Yes, definitely. The songs were referring to different events, of course, 359 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: but they were also responses to the harmful actions of 360 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: government and individual apartheid supporters. These songs documented the plight 361 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: of black South Africans who were forcibly removed from their 362 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 1: homes and made to relocate. They were about triumph over 363 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: oppressors in the wake of events like the Soeto Uprising, 364 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: demonstrations that students in South Africa led when black schools 365 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: were forced to use Afrikaans as the language of instruction. 366 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: They highlighted women's role in the movement. They mourned the 367 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: loss of land and memorialized lost people. And as the 368 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: fight for freedom changed tones, so did the freedom songs. 369 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: The sounds changed, the lyrics change. Songs went from hymn 370 00:20:49,240 --> 00:21:00,719 Speaker 1: like to upbeaten jazzy to sharper and more militaristic. The 371 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,239 Speaker 1: song we Will Leave Our Parents, for example, includes the 372 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: following lyrics. Following freedom, we say goodbye, goodbye, goodbye home. 373 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: We are going into foreign countries to places our fathers 374 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: and mothers don't know. Following freedom. 375 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 3: This song is. 376 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: About how youth left South Africa to join the MK 377 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: or the Spear of the Nation, which was the military 378 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: wing of the African National Congress that it established in 379 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one. The song acknowledged the sadness of leaving, 380 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: but was clear that the fight must go on and 381 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: that they were going to take part in it. Songs 382 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: were used to mobilize support and mentally prepare people for battle. 383 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: It was like the artists made music for the mood 384 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 2: that was needed. 385 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were writing the rhythm of the anti apartheid effort. 386 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: So to speak, songs gave people the strength to persevere 387 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,239 Speaker 1: even when their leaders were locked up and banned. It 388 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: helped instill in freedom fighters faith and gave them direction. 389 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see how that could help keep the 390 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: spear of the struggle alive. 391 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 3: Oh yeah. 392 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 2: And speaking of bands, the government censored music with anti 393 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 2: apartheid themes right. 394 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: Yep, and some of the musicians who created those songs 395 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: were imprisoned, exiled, and even killed. Miriam Mikayba, Voicily Meini, 396 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: Hugh Masakele, Dorothy Masuku, and Abdullah Ibraheim are just some 397 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: of the musical artists who were punished for their outspoken 398 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: opposition to apartheid when they were exiled, though they were 399 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: often musically successful and successful in spreading their anti apartheid 400 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 1: messages abroad to people who were morally outraged with the 401 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: abuses happening in South Africa. Other musicians continued their activism 402 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: from within the country's borders. 403 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: I can't help but think about how much of a 404 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 2: testament this is to the artist's belief in the power 405 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: of music to create change. Musicians continued to make beautiful 406 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: music with serious messages even with the threat of incarceration, displacement, 407 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: and death dangling over their heads. But those starts remained 408 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 2: even if they didn't make music. 409 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it was either death or freedom for 410 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: the people who were in this fight. They were freedom fighters. 411 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: So music happened to be the medium that they used, 412 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: and it was their gift and it was part of 413 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: the way that they chose to freedom fight in this case. 414 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: And I mean music not only helped resistors broadcast messages 415 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: to people within and outside of the movement, it literally 416 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: helps them survive and others persist on their path toward freedom. 417 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: And here it comes up again that magic that music 418 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: has in being able to help Black people clearly and 419 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: viscerally give voice to our experiences and life to our power. 420 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: Activists and artist Sofiso and Tulli, who was forced into 421 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: exile during apartheid, says the following in the two thousand 422 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: and two documentary A Mantla, a Revolution and four Part Harmony. 423 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: A song is something that would communicate to those people 424 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: who otherwise would not have understood where we are coming from. 425 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: You could give them a long part speech they would 426 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: still not understand. But I tell you, when you finish 427 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: that song, people will be like, Damn, I know where 428 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: you niggas are coming from. I know where you guys 429 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: are coming from, death unto apartheid. 430 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 2: And the magic continues to Black protest music may not 431 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: be as popping as it was in the sixties or 432 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 2: as distinct of a genre, but it lives on. Hip 433 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: hop's been holding it down from NWA to Public Enemy 434 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 2: like Janelle Money with songs like hell you talking about Yeah. 435 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: I was thinking about protest songs over the years. I 436 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: do really associate protest songs with the sixties and the seventies, 437 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: like I feel like that was a high point for them. 438 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: But I also wonder if I'm being unfair to just 439 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: the amount of work that we have nowaday and how 440 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: much how different it is to access those things, because 441 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: songs are still an integral part of the way that 442 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: we express our protests, and there's still a lot of 443 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: things to protest about that we are protesting about. But 444 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: it's like how many layers of band camp can I 445 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 1: dig through? And I'm going to get to some test 446 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 1: songs and ones that I have no idea exists right now. 447 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: I can go back and look at videos of people 448 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: who were freedom fighters and apartheid, and they're using these 449 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: songs as they're outside, as they're going to like demonstrate, 450 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: as they're going to protest, as they're going into literal 451 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: armed battle, as they're going up against tanks, as they're 452 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: going up against people's guns. 453 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 3: They're using these songs. 454 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: They have practices where they merged song and dance together 455 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: to be able to train, to become soldiers, to be 456 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: able to face battle. And one of the thing about 457 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: protests songs that are super interesting to me is how 458 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: there's a dissonance between the delivery of the song and 459 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,479 Speaker 1: the things that people are talking about. Like they can 460 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 1: be really upbeat, they can be like, Okay, this is 461 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: a groove, you know, I can dance to this song, 462 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 1: and they're talking about how they're fighting, or they're talking 463 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: about uplifting the people who have died, or they're talking 464 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: about uplifting people who are going into battle now. But 465 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: the range of topics can be so varied. Still they 466 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: are about how people are entering into resistance. 467 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: I think it's interesting how you said the lyrics would 468 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: change at some point. They were warnings to their opposition, 469 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 2: and so when I initially think of protest songs. I 470 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 2: think it's for the people singing them, for the people 471 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: who are on the same side, but for the people 472 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: who are against you. Hearing a gang of people singing 473 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 2: the same song, it is showing that you're united, that 474 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 2: you're coordinated, that y'all know at least some of the 475 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: same information, and that y'all are on one accord. So 476 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: I do think like hearing it from the opposition is 477 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,719 Speaker 2: also powerful too for people who are looking to oppress you. 478 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 2: It sends the message like it's going to be harder 479 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 2: to fuck with these people just by singing a song 480 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 2: and you just said and dancing and you know, having 481 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: y'all steps in order. So I like the thought of 482 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: protest songs being a warning too and an. 483 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: Incit sphere, and people who hear it it can create 484 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: that kind of Pavlovian response where you hear this certain word, 485 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: then I know what's coming next. Like, for instance, I 486 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: can't speak the languages that people were speaking when they 487 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: were singing a lot of the anti Apartheis songs because 488 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: they weren't singing them in English all of the time. 489 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: And also a lot of the people who their oppressors, 490 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: who were their enemies in this fight couldn't speak the 491 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: languages either, but they would still hear these words and 492 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: knew that that meant charge. So there are people in 493 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: this documentary talking about how even when I heard that 494 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: word after you know, nineteen ninety four, that did something 495 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: to my spirit, that put a little fear in my bones. 496 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: You know, that rouled up something in me. I understood 497 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: what that meant. And also just as a form of 498 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: coded message, a message that could stay within community. There 499 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: was an element of that in the civil rights movement 500 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: protest songs as well. But in our case people spoke 501 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: English across the board, and in their case in the 502 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: South African apartheid fight, in that case, not everyone's the 503 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: same language. One thing also that I was thinking about 504 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: that came up across the different movements and the protest 505 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: songs that were within them, was how the artists who 506 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: were creating these songs thought about the music and thought 507 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: about the power of the music. They had no qualms 508 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: in understanding how powerful the music was and what the 509 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: abilities and the capacities of creating protest songs did for 510 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: the movement. They weren't equivocating over like what is my 511 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: song going to do for the people, or you know, 512 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: should I even make this song. 513 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: They weren't self conscious about their role in the movement. 514 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: They knew that they were important and necessary. 515 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 3: Not at all. 516 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: And the people who are freedom fighters who did do 517 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: interviews talk about how they knew then and now how 518 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: important song was to the movement and in apartheids case, 519 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: how lively the movement was because of the music. The 520 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: creators of these songs talk about how moves they were 521 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: and creating the music, how they felt called to create 522 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: the music in some instances, but the ability of song 523 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: to be able to speak to people in ways that 524 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: other forms of vocalization couldn't. So it's not like they 525 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: downplayed those other forms. They acknowledged that they were different 526 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: forms though that song did something from people. It imbued 527 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: an energy and a spirit in people that other mediums 528 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: could not. That when people heard songs, it moved them, 529 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: and it moved them thoroughly. And I think that is 530 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,479 Speaker 1: like a great message for people who feel, you know, 531 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: their work isn't impactful or can't be powerful. I was 532 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: thinking about how we talk so much about self care 533 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: these days and about mental health and wellness, and when 534 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 1: it comes to talking about movements, I think a lot 535 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: lot of times we try to put ourselves in these 536 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: cages or wrangle ourselves into spaces where we feel like 537 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: only the most active thing we can do is the 538 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: thing that we think is right for that movement, Like 539 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 1: it has to be the thing that is like it 540 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: has to be the punching part, you know, it has 541 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: to be the part that is like I'm out there 542 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: on the front. 543 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 3: Lines or I'm yelling. 544 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: I think a great message that comes from seeing these 545 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: people who were banned for their songs, right they were exiled, 546 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: how how much? 547 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 3: What else do you need to say? 548 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: That shows that the people against you knew how powerful 549 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 2: they were too. 550 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: Exactly, they didn't want you in there. They wanted to 551 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: shut their songs down. They didn't want people to hear them, 552 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: they didn't want people to sing. They definitely didn't want 553 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: people to sing them who they knew were about to 554 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: fight them. And yet and still, you know, they went 555 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: to other places around the world and they were still 556 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: able to deliver their message to the masses. All of 557 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: the freedom fighters who created these songs knew that they 558 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: had something to say. 559 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 3: They managed to merge. 560 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: Their gifts and their talents and their skill sets and 561 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: creating music to make actual change that was real and tangible, 562 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: and that the people who weren't freedom fighting, who weren't 563 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: writing the song set as much they verified that. You know, 564 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: it wasn't just a guess, Oh, like what did this 565 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: do for it? How can we quantify it? It's like 566 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: they're saying it kept them alive? But yes, it kept 567 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: them safe. It kept them alive. I think it's really 568 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: easy to say, like, but why do we need to 569 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: do that? 570 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 3: But what does the art do? 571 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: But when we talk about self care or whatever word 572 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: you want to use, this is part of that work 573 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: that needs to be done with the artistry and with 574 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: the care of mentality to be able to even fight 575 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: in the first place, and to support people who are 576 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: doing different things because we don't all need to do 577 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: the same thing. 578 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: We can't. 579 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 3: We can't all do the same thing. 580 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: And we better respect our God given you know, they 581 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: were given to us for a reason. And I, for one, 582 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: am so grateful that all these people we talked about 583 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: today understood that, you know, they knew what they were 584 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: given and when they were spoken to to be put 585 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: in the place where they were like, Okay, Now it's 586 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: time for you to share it because it's about to 587 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: do some work for the people. 588 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 3: Now do it and do it at all costs. 589 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: Because it was at all costs. Yeah, because voicely Mini 590 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: died and so they say, according to people who knew 591 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: him and who was around him, died singing, like he 592 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: went to the gallows singing. So song was in every level. 593 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: It was in death and it was in life, and 594 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: it still goes. You know, after apartheid, you know, after 595 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: Mandela was released, people were still singing. 596 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 3: You know, people are still singing today. 597 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 2: Now it's time for role credits, the segment where we 598 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 2: give credit to a person, our thing we encountered during 599 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: the week. Eaves, who are what would you like to 600 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 2: give credit to? 601 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 3: I want to give credit to Onseen. 602 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: This week, just been thinking about protests and capacities for 603 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: writing and for art to be able to speak out 604 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: about things and incite different thoughts and people and change. 605 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: I'm just really grateful to be able to have a 606 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: platform to be able to speak to people, and to 607 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: have people to be able to communicate back with us, 608 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: and to be able to talk to you because a 609 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: lot of these conversations that we have can happen privately, 610 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: you know so, But this also gives me a container 611 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: to be able to talk to you about certain things, 612 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: and for other people to be able to think about 613 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: things that they haven't thought about before, to think about 614 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: the roles if they're artists themselves that they have and 615 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: being able to create change and update their understanding and 616 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: awareness and consciousness on different things. 617 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 3: And I am aware of the on earth that that. 618 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: Is basically to be able to do it, and in 619 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: a way that's it things me too and fulfills me. 620 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: I'll give credit to the ancestors and the ones we 621 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 2: knew while they were alive, and like watch them transition 622 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 2: because it's a different relationship, but it's still a relationship 623 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 2: and I love them. So let's shout out to y'all. 624 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: Gangang Gang, Gang Gang watching over us right now. Yep, 625 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,959 Speaker 1: to be sure about it, and we'll see y'all next week. 626 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: See ya bye. 627 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: Hi. 628 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 629 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 630 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us 631 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Theme Show. You can also send 632 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: us an email at Hello at on Theme Dot Show. 633 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: Head to on Theme Dot Show to check out the 634 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 635 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: the IHEARTRADI your app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 636 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.