1
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,120
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

2
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

3
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,520
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to

4
00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,840
Speaker 1: the show, where we explore the intersection of identity, social media,

5
00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,680
Speaker 1: and technology. This is another installment of our weekly roundup

6
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,920
Speaker 1: of news that you might have missed on the Internet

7
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,240
Speaker 1: this week. Joey, thank you so much for being here.

8
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,199
Speaker 1: As I was telling you, I am coming to you

9
00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,800
Speaker 1: from my hotel room in beautiful Burlington, Vermont. I met

10
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,880
Speaker 1: the Hotel Vermont. Shout out to them. They've been great.

11
00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,080
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here, of course. Okay, So we

12
00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,960
Speaker 1: were talking about this off Mike and I was like,

13
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,239
Speaker 1: I wonder if they have heard about this? Who the

14
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,160
Speaker 1: f did I marry? Saga on TikTok And you were like, oh,

15
00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:56,680
Speaker 1: what is this? Who the f did I am married?

16
00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,040
Speaker 1: So you have not heard about this at all from TikTok?

17
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 1: Have not, no, So let me explain to you what

18
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,400
Speaker 1: is going on. So this woman on TikTok basically told

19
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,440
Speaker 1: this epic story about essentially how her marriage fell apart.

20
00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,319
Speaker 1: It was in fifty parts, so fifty separate ten minute

21
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:22,160
Speaker 1: tiktoks all together. It was five hundred minutes of viewing time,

22
00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 1: or about eight and a half hours. When I tell

23
00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,320
Speaker 1: you that I watched the entire thing. I was watching

24
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 1: this TikTok as if I was listening to an audiobook

25
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,720
Speaker 1: or like listening to a podcast where I was carrying

26
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 1: my phone around my apartment being like ooh, and then

27
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,319
Speaker 1: what happened, and then what happened, and that what happened,

28
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,679
Speaker 1: And so essentially her story is one where she was

29
00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,640
Speaker 1: engaged to marry this guy, or married this guy she

30
00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 1: thought he she had been telling her like, Oh, I'm

31
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: the VP of a company. I'm really close to my

32
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 1: family and to my cousins, blah blah blah and it.

33
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: And he was getting up every morning and having these

34
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,200
Speaker 1: like jovial converts with his brother and his cousins and

35
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,600
Speaker 1: his families and his friends. And it turns out that

36
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,480
Speaker 1: he'd been doing this for years, but he was just

37
00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 1: pretending to have these conversations, so there was never anybody

38
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,440
Speaker 1: on the other end of the phone because his family

39
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,080
Speaker 1: has been estranged and no contact from him four years.

40
00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,280
Speaker 1: He said that he was a VP at a condiment company.

41
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,840
Speaker 1: Turns out, in reality he was like a forklift operator.

42
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,520
Speaker 1: He basically had invented all of these bank statements from

43
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,920
Speaker 1: Chase from Chase Bank talking about like oh, like this

44
00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:34,160
Speaker 1: is how much money I have in the bank because

45
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,040
Speaker 1: they were going to buy a house together. Like this

46
00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,880
Speaker 1: thing went deep. It was fifty separate parts. She got

47
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,320
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty million different people watching this story,

48
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,000
Speaker 1: hanging on her every word. Uh, overnight. Essentially she got

49
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 1: a million followers through sharing this story. And I will say,

50
00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,519
Speaker 1: like people listening might be like, Wow, you dedicated eight

51
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,920
Speaker 1: and a half hours of your life to listening to

52
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,560
Speaker 1: the drama of a stranger people that you'll never meet. Yeah,

53
00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,040
Speaker 1: I did, because she is a very good storyteller. I

54
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 1: was hanging on every word. So I guess my question

55
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,400
Speaker 1: to you to start off is that would you air

56
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,839
Speaker 1: out some truly wild personal story or personal drama if

57
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,360
Speaker 1: you knew that it would equal like overnight social media fame.

58
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 1: Because right now this woman is she's in talks with

59
00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,120
Speaker 1: like big brands and like people are like, oh, Shonda

60
00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 1: Rhime should make her life into a movie, like she

61
00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 1: like she's made it. Would you do that if you

62
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 1: knew it was going to make you like famous overnight.

63
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 2: Damn, I want to say no, just because I feel like,

64
00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of a double edged sword for like,

65
00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 2: I feel like people are gonna turn on you really quick,

66
00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:49,320
Speaker 2: like something's gonna happen.

67
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:49,800
Speaker 1: I don't know.

68
00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 2: Uh, Damn, that's crazy though that I feel like that

69
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,240
Speaker 2: level of like a I feel like I wouldn't want

70
00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,520
Speaker 2: to admit to the public that I felt that, Like

71
00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,000
Speaker 2: I'd feel bad like which, no, no shade to her

72
00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:04,560
Speaker 2: like whatever.

73
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,440
Speaker 3: But I'm kind of like I feel like I'd be like.

74
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:08,840
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want people to know that I felt for

75
00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 2: that I didn't even google the guy or whatever.

76
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:16,279
Speaker 4: But yeah, at the same time, that's that's crazy. Can

77
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 4: I don't know.

78
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,880
Speaker 1: I feel like I will never truly know social media

79
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 1: fame or infamy because I don't. I don't have this.

80
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,159
Speaker 1: I don't have this kind of like I couldn't. There's

81
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:30,920
Speaker 1: nothing in my life that I could do a fifty

82
00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,400
Speaker 1: part TikTok on. I don't have personal drama. There's something

83
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,599
Speaker 1: like wild going on in my life, I guess, thank God,

84
00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,599
Speaker 1: But like part of me is like, damn, do you

85
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:43,039
Speaker 1: really have to like have some wild stuff happening in

86
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,599
Speaker 1: your personal life and be willing to like really air

87
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,039
Speaker 1: out all the details in order to find some kind

88
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 1: of social media success.

89
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,839
Speaker 2: Okay, so my one point of reference is that I

90
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,400
Speaker 2: had somebody try to do this to a friend of mine, which.

91
00:04:59,080 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 4: It wasn't success.

92
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,039
Speaker 2: Also, like ninety percent of it was fain It was

93
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,040
Speaker 2: a weird, Like it was a weird situation.

94
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 3: But I don't know, I.

95
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,039
Speaker 2: Personally, I feel like I see this a lot on TikTok, like,

96
00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,920
Speaker 2: especially when you get into like more niche TikTok communities too,

97
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,839
Speaker 2: Like there's always some sort of personal beef between creators

98
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,920
Speaker 2: that like blows up and like becomes a huge thing.

99
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,040
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I like when you step back, it's

100
00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 2: sort of like who, Like, this is not any of

101
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,240
Speaker 2: my business? Like what is going on?

102
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel the same way. And it's funny. When

103
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,520
Speaker 1: I first started making the podcast, it was very important

104
00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 1: to me that someone listening to the show could never

105
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 1: be like, oh, it's just a summary of like TikTok

106
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,520
Speaker 1: beefs or Twitter beefs or who's canceling who on Twitter?

107
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,000
Speaker 1: And I see so much of that, but like, and

108
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,560
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like I'm above

109
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,920
Speaker 1: finding the interpersonal drama and dynamics of strangers interesting because

110
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 1: lord knows, I'm fascinated. But you know, it's it's out there.

111
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,599
Speaker 1: You should tell you if you're if your friend wants

112
00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,520
Speaker 1: social media fame and can like tell the story over

113
00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,080
Speaker 1: fifty very compelling tiktoks. Now is the time as a

114
00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:13,360
Speaker 1: hunger for it.

115
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,320
Speaker 2: Dude, there's all That's the thing is, like, you know,

116
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,240
Speaker 2: the last time I was on, we were talking.

117
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,760
Speaker 4: About the like lesbian bar drama.

118
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,320
Speaker 2: And it's funny because I feel like that is the

119
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 2: version of like where it backfired for like, I think

120
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,360
Speaker 2: she was doing this.

121
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:26,840
Speaker 4: I think she thought she was like.

122
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 2: Getting her beef out there and using I don't know,

123
00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,280
Speaker 2: but like I think she was intending to use a

124
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,480
Speaker 2: perversonal gain and then it backfired in a way that

125
00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:37,279
Speaker 2: made her look bad.

126
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,760
Speaker 4: And that's why I don't know.

127
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,000
Speaker 2: I feel like there's some there's some sort of like

128
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,920
Speaker 2: detail I missed that everybody would go after me, you know,

129
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:45,719
Speaker 2: right right.

130
00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,400
Speaker 1: Like, oh well, Joey didn't consider this.

131
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,200
Speaker 4: Were telling the story like house are.

132
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you live by you live by the already you

133
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:55,920
Speaker 1: die by thesorty. You gotta be careful air and at

134
00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,680
Speaker 1: your beef on social media. It's great advice. Hey, so

135
00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 1: this is future bridget The New York Times has published

136
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,560
Speaker 1: a groundbreaking story today looking at so called insta moms

137
00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,640
Speaker 1: who run accounts for their very young minor daughters. The

138
00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,840
Speaker 1: piece was published after Joey and I have recorded this episode,

139
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,840
Speaker 1: but I still really wanted to let y'all know about it,

140
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 1: which is why I'm popping in here justa heads up.

141
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 1: This is dark. Basically, parents, mostly moms, to be honest,

142
00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,640
Speaker 1: are running Instagram accounts for their minor daughters who are

143
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,920
Speaker 1: as young as five years old. Now. Some of these

144
00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 1: accounts are ostensibly about showcasing their daughter's modeling or competitive

145
00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 1: dancing or gymnastics. The accounts show their minor daughters in

146
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,920
Speaker 1: dance or gymnastics apparel, which can be skimpy or revealing,

147
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,040
Speaker 1: and you know, might look one way in a dance

148
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,120
Speaker 1: studio or on a dance stage, but looks very different

149
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,040
Speaker 1: when posed in photos on social media. It's complicated because

150
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 1: some of these moms may genuinely feel like running these

151
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 1: kinds of accounts for their daughters could be good for

152
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,560
Speaker 1: a future career as a model or an influencer. Some

153
00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,120
Speaker 1: of the moms are getting free or discount and clothing

154
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,120
Speaker 1: and are hopeful about brand deals from these accounts. It's

155
00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,320
Speaker 1: gross because at least some of these moms who run

156
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: the pages really do seem like they think this is

157
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 1: going to be a good thing for their daughters or

158
00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,160
Speaker 1: their families financially, but maybe don't seem to be that

159
00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,520
Speaker 1: concerned with what it's actually doing to their daughters, Like

160
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,120
Speaker 1: becoming an influencer cannot be worth this because for a

161
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,240
Speaker 1: lot of these accounts, the followers aren't just brands or

162
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,320
Speaker 1: well meeting family members. The followers are grown men, strangers,

163
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,839
Speaker 1: creeps who leave really sexually inappropriate comments on the pictures. Now,

164
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,640
Speaker 1: I should say some of the moms the New York

165
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,200
Speaker 1: Times talk to are actively managing the accounts, deleting creepy

166
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,359
Speaker 1: men followers and their comments, but other moms are encouraging

167
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,000
Speaker 1: these kinds of comments and even arranging for the men

168
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,679
Speaker 1: to have more and more direct contact with their daughters

169
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,320
Speaker 1: for money, like through paying for subscriptions to exclusive content

170
00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,000
Speaker 1: on Instagram, allowing the men to buy the daughters used clothing,

171
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,440
Speaker 1: or even arranging private chats. So it's pretty clear what's

172
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 1: going on don't think that you could be a parent

173
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,559
Speaker 1: who is arranging this kind of thing and be totally

174
00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,920
Speaker 1: naive to what's going on. And Instagram is really not

175
00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,600
Speaker 1: doing enough compared to other platforms to stamp out this

176
00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,800
Speaker 1: kind of behavior. In fact, they're really kind of doing

177
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,520
Speaker 1: nothing in my book. In twenty twenty two, Instagram launched

178
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,679
Speaker 1: paid subscriptions, which allow followers to pay a monthly fee

179
00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,640
Speaker 1: for exclusive content and access. Now, accounts for anybody under

180
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 1: the age of eighteen are not supposed to be able

181
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,480
Speaker 1: to do subscriptions, but mom run account sidestep that restriction.

182
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 1: The Time has found dozens that charged from ninety nine

183
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,720
Speaker 1: cents to nineteen ninety nine at the highest price, parents

184
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,440
Speaker 1: offered ask Me Anything, chat sessions, and behind the scenes photos.

185
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,280
Speaker 1: Child safety experts warned that subscriptions and other features could

186
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,200
Speaker 1: lead to unhealthy interactions, with men believing they have a

187
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,320
Speaker 1: special connection to the girls and girls believing they must

188
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,400
Speaker 1: meet these men's needs. So Instagram is basically like uniquely

189
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,680
Speaker 1: establishing a pathway that allows for minor girls and adults

190
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 1: to be connected and get exclusive access to them. And

191
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,920
Speaker 1: what in the world would there be any legitimate reason

192
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,080
Speaker 1: for a grown man to be paying for exclusive access

193
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,680
Speaker 1: to a child like on some level, I cannot imagine

194
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,720
Speaker 1: a world where these moms truly are so naive to

195
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 1: what is going on, and some of the men who

196
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,600
Speaker 1: follow these kinds of accounts are actual child abusers. Even

197
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,160
Speaker 1: though Instagram is supposed to not allow anybody who is

198
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,200
Speaker 1: on the sex offender registry to use the platform, The

199
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,560
Speaker 1: Times trace the account of some of the followers, and

200
00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 1: one of them, who follows these kinds of accounts was

201
00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,040
Speaker 1: convicted of sexually assaulting a child and is listed on

202
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,280
Speaker 1: the New Jersey Sex Offender Registry, and Instagram did not

203
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,680
Speaker 1: remove this account until The Times ask them about it

204
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,800
Speaker 1: for this piece. On Telegram. On alternative social media platform,

205
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,760
Speaker 1: these men connect with each other and trade images for

206
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,280
Speaker 1: abusive means. Men in these groups frequently praise the advent

207
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 1: of Instagram as the golden age for child exploitation. I'm

208
00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,199
Speaker 1: so glad for these new moms pimping their daughters out,

209
00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,160
Speaker 1: wrote one of them. And there's an infinite supply of it.

210
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,040
Speaker 1: Literally does refresh your Instagram explore page and there's fresh preteens.

211
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,400
Speaker 1: Some of these men even go further and cultivate business

212
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,800
Speaker 1: or patronage relationships with the moms by sending the mom's

213
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,680
Speaker 1: cash or gifts or other things, and also trying to

214
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,000
Speaker 1: pressure or blackmail the moms into posting more and more

215
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,960
Speaker 1: revealing outfits. One mom described it as her girls becoming

216
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,839
Speaker 1: a kind of currency. Now there again, there are moms who,

217
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,000
Speaker 1: it sounds like, are trying to keep men like this

218
00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,640
Speaker 1: off of their accounts, but those moms are basically blocked

219
00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,760
Speaker 1: by Instagram itself. Meta failed to act on multiple reports

220
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,720
Speaker 1: made by parents and even restricted parents who tried to

221
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,200
Speaker 1: police their own followers. According to interviews and materials provided

222
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,959
Speaker 1: by these parents, if the parents block too many accounts

223
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,959
Speaker 1: in one day, Meta curtails their ability to block or

224
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 1: follow others. They said. I remember being told like I've

225
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,319
Speaker 1: reached my limit, said a mother of two dancers in

226
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,160
Speaker 1: Arizona who declined to be named, Like what, I reached

227
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,760
Speaker 1: my limit of pedophiles for today? Okay? Great? And sometimes

228
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,040
Speaker 1: even in the most egregious explicit cases, like a man

229
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,280
Speaker 1: who propositioned to mom offering her sixty five thousand dollars

230
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,720
Speaker 1: for one hour with her minor daughter in a DM,

231
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,640
Speaker 1: Instagram still did nothing when she reported it. Now in response,

232
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,559
Speaker 1: to these reports, Meta said that either those communications did

233
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,480
Speaker 1: not violate Instagram's community guidelines or that staff didn't have

234
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 1: time to review them. In other cases, Meta told parents

235
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,880
Speaker 1: that it relied on its quote technology to determine the

236
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,640
Speaker 1: content was probably not a violation. So there is just

237
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,040
Speaker 1: no way to spin that. This is Instagram allowing their

238
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,679
Speaker 1: platform to be used for nefarious ways by creeps who

239
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,480
Speaker 1: are endangering children and doing fuck all about it. So

240
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,080
Speaker 1: I really want to talk about what's going on here.

241
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,240
Speaker 1: One Instagram isn't doing enough, and I think that they've

242
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 1: really been counting on bad press around in Twitter and

243
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,000
Speaker 1: TikTok to not have to answer for the ways that

244
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,520
Speaker 1: they've allowed their platform to become. As one of the

245
00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,480
Speaker 1: men who follows these accounts put it quote a candy

246
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,480
Speaker 1: store for abusive child content. And I also think there

247
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,160
Speaker 1: is a lot going on with these moms, Like I

248
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,199
Speaker 1: don't think anyone should have to deal with a creep

249
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,440
Speaker 1: exploiting their kids, and no young person should have to

250
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,080
Speaker 1: go through it either. These girls should be able to

251
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,320
Speaker 1: decide how they want to show up online, but they're

252
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,439
Speaker 1: so young they can't possibly understand and consent to this

253
00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,320
Speaker 1: kind of digital presence. Some of the moms the Times

254
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,480
Speaker 1: spoke to said things like, Oh, she's been doing this

255
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,480
Speaker 1: for so long now, her numbers are so big. What

256
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,760
Speaker 1: are we supposed to do? Just stop it and walk away?

257
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,440
Speaker 1: And yes, of course you can just stop this and

258
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 1: walk away. If you are a parent, it is your

259
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,319
Speaker 1: job to keep your kids safe. And if you know

260
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,240
Speaker 1: that creeps like this are out there and exploiting your kid,

261
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,120
Speaker 1: you should be able to be the adult in the

262
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,040
Speaker 1: room and say we are going to stop this and

263
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,160
Speaker 1: walk away. The promise of insta fame and free stuff

264
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 1: from brands cannot be worth the well being and health

265
00:13:52,600 --> 00:14:16,840
Speaker 1: of your child. Let's take quickly at our back, so

266
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,640
Speaker 1: we have to sort of switch gears. And I have

267
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,480
Speaker 1: to give a bit of a warning for this story

268
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:27,920
Speaker 1: because it is deeply heartbreaking and deeply disturbing, and I

269
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,600
Speaker 1: just want to say that right off the top. It

270
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,240
Speaker 1: is a truly heartbreaking story out of Oklahoma, and it's

271
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,320
Speaker 1: still developing, but I can tell you what we know

272
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,200
Speaker 1: as of right now. So next, Benedict, a sixteen year

273
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 1: old Oklahoma high school sophomore, was beaten by three girl

274
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 1: classmates in the bathroom of Owasso High School. On Wray Evans.

275
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:54,000
Speaker 1: The next day, Wuray eighth, Next, who identified with the

276
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,640
Speaker 1: two Spirit transgender and gender non conforming umbrella, was declared

277
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 1: dead at a hospital. So there is a very detailed

278
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,360
Speaker 1: piece in teen Vogue by non binary journalist Lex McManamon

279
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 1: who points out that according to Freedom Oklahoma, it is

280
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:13,160
Speaker 1: not apparently clear what pronouns better it's used, So in

281
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,359
Speaker 1: this conversation, I'm going to refrain from using any pronouns.

282
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 1: According to this piece, a lot of what we have

283
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,680
Speaker 1: heard about what might have happened comes from an anonymous

284
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,520
Speaker 1: source who says that they are a family friend, and

285
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,600
Speaker 1: this person told a local news outlet that the cause

286
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: of Nex's death was quote complications from brain trauma, and

287
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,240
Speaker 1: that three older girls were beating the victim and her

288
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,280
Speaker 1: daughter in this girl's bathroom at the school. So this

289
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,240
Speaker 1: source said that Next said that Next couldn't walk to

290
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,560
Speaker 1: the nurses station without assistance, and that the school did

291
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,040
Speaker 1: not call an ambulance. This is a little bit murky

292
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,200
Speaker 1: to me because I've seen conflicting sources and conflicting reports.

293
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,040
Speaker 1: The school claims that they were unaware that the fight

294
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,920
Speaker 1: happened until they were informed by a parent. But then

295
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 1: on February twenty, the school kind of backtracked, acknowledging that

296
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,600
Speaker 1: the students saw the school nurse after the altercation. So

297
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 1: it's not totally clear to me what actually happened, Like

298
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,600
Speaker 1: the school said one thing, that another. I'm not totally

299
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 1: sure what's going on there. But here is what Next

300
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,840
Speaker 1: texted after the attack. I got jumped at school three

301
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,400
Speaker 1: on one had to go to the er. They had

302
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 1: been bullying me and my friends, and I got tired

303
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 1: of it, so I poured some water on them and

304
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,560
Speaker 1: all three came after me. School did not report to

305
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,080
Speaker 1: the police and is probably getting sued. NeXT's guardian, Sue Benedict,

306
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 1: told The Independent that she was called to the school

307
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 1: to find Next had been badly beaten with face bruises.

308
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 1: Sue Benedict says that her child told her that the

309
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 1: attack involved NeXT's head hitting the ground, so Benedict says

310
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,720
Speaker 1: that the school told her that Next was going to

311
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,520
Speaker 1: be suspended for two weeks. NeXT's guardian brought Next to

312
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,120
Speaker 1: the hospital right after the fight was discharged. The very

313
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 1: next day, Next ended up color, saying at home. NeXT's

314
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 1: guardian called an ambulance who took next to the hospital

315
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,919
Speaker 1: where Next was then pronounced dead. It's very heartbreaking. I

316
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,040
Speaker 1: have to be clear that we don't have all the information.

317
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,119
Speaker 1: A lot of these reports are still coming together and

318
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,680
Speaker 1: still being confirmed. If we get more information, we will

319
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,800
Speaker 1: definitely update you. But this is what I was able

320
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,959
Speaker 1: to confirm myself as of recording on Thursday evening. So.

321
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,200
Speaker 1: According to a piece in The Independent, Next began being

322
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,160
Speaker 1: bullied at the beginning of twenty twenty three, a few

323
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,679
Speaker 1: months after Oklahoma Governor Kevin Stitt signed a bill that

324
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,119
Speaker 1: required public school students to use bathrooms that matched the

325
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,639
Speaker 1: sets listed on their birth certificates. As of right now,

326
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 1: we do not know NeXT's cause of death. The police

327
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,400
Speaker 1: issued a subsequent statement on the twenty fourth of February,

328
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,320
Speaker 1: saying that an autopsy indicated that Next had not died

329
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 1: as a result of trauma, but that didn't say what

330
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,720
Speaker 1: might have caused NeXT's death. The police said, while the

331
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 1: investigation continues into the altercation, preliminary information from the Medical

332
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,280
Speaker 1: Examiner's office is that a complete autopsy was performed and

333
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 1: indicated that the descendent did not die as a result

334
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,760
Speaker 1: of trauma. But the family is also going to do

335
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,119
Speaker 1: their own independent investigation into the death as well. So

336
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,560
Speaker 1: that is what we know in terms of facts about

337
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,399
Speaker 1: what happened. But something else that we know is that

338
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,959
Speaker 1: NeXT's death isn't happening in a vacuum, right, It's happening

339
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 1: against the backdrop of an entire wave of increasingly violent

340
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,400
Speaker 1: anti LGBTQ climate, and Oklahoma specifically, Oklahoma leads the nation

341
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 1: in terms of anti LGBTQ laws. Joey, you and I

342
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 1: talked about this just a couple of weeks ago when

343
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 1: you were on the show. But in Oklahoma's school district,

344
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:47,120
Speaker 1: Oklahoma's Republican Superintendent of Public Schools, Ryan Walters, recently appointed

345
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 1: the far right hate mongering influencer Chaia Rachik, who runs

346
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,680
Speaker 1: the inflammatory libs of TikTok account. So Reichik was appointed

347
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 1: to be on the Oklahoma Education Department's Library Media Committee,

348
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,679
Speaker 1: despite the fact that, as we said, she's not an

349
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,720
Speaker 1: Oklahoma resident, doesn't have a child in the Oklahoma school system,

350
00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,399
Speaker 1: does not have a background in education, she's a realtor.

351
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,400
Speaker 1: It's not clear why she would be someone who would

352
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 1: be a good person to elevate within Oklahoma public schools

353
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 1: other than the fact that she has these like very

354
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 1: public anti LGBTQ anti trans views that she makes very

355
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 1: clear from her TikTok account. Right cheous anti LGBTQ posts

356
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 1: have been linked to nearly three dozen threats made towards schools, libraries, hospitals,

357
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 1: and businesses across sixteen states. This is according to an

358
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 1: NBC News investigation. And so it's pretty clear to me,

359
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: it's very clear what the kind of statement Oklahoma Public

360
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,919
Speaker 1: Schools is trying to send when they amplify somebody like

361
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,159
Speaker 1: libs of TikTok to a position like this within the

362
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 1: school system. And I think it's like it's very difficult

363
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,119
Speaker 1: to talk about what happened to Next without also talking

364
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 1: about this very very hateful climate that's happening in Oklahoma.

365
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, I saw this story come out right after

366
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 2: next it died, and.

367
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is just so heartbreaking and.

368
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 2: I cannot Yeah, Like it's just it's so heartbreaking, and

369
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 2: it's so clear that yeah, like there's like that's connected.

370
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,400
Speaker 2: There's definitely a connection there. Hey, this is kind of

371
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,360
Speaker 2: like this is the endgame of a lot of like

372
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,119
Speaker 2: this sort of rhetoric and like the kind of things

373
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,439
Speaker 2: that like lips of TikTok and all that. Like what

374
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 2: they're trying to do, they're trying to prevent trans people

375
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 2: from existing, and a lot of times that ends in

376
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 2: people dying, you know, and that is horrifying. And I yeah,

377
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 2: this this is truly such just such a like tragic story.

378
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 1: It really is. And I've I mean, I think that

379
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 1: you're exactly right that you can't have all of these

380
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 1: different ways where queer folks and trans folks and gender

381
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 1: nonconforming folks are being given the message that the people

382
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: in power, the powers that be, don't want them to exist,

383
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 1: They want to criminalize them, they want to legislate the

384
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,880
Speaker 1: met of existence and then act surprised when this kind

385
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 1: of thing happens.

386
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I mean, this is also the other

387
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 2: side of that is that it empowers the other kids

388
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: that killed next, Like they're probably their motivation or they're.

389
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 4: Kind of the reasons they did.

390
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 2: What they did was motivated also by this kind of

391
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 2: rhetoric and the fact that this rhetoric has become like normalized,

392
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,360
Speaker 2: and like the messages they're hearing are probably telling them

393
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 2: that this was something that was okay and justifiable.

394
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 1: That's such a good point and I think, you know,

395
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 1: kids are absorbing these messages. They're here these messages, you know.

396
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 1: It just doesn't surprise me that kids in this in

397
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 1: Nexus school saw Next as someone it was okay to

398
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: bully someone, that it was open season on and that

399
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 1: the adults at the school what were they gonna say,

400
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 1: because they're doing it too, right, Like, I mean, like

401
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of people framing this story as

402
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: like kids bullying kids, like teach your kids to be better,

403
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: But we are talking about grown adults who are passing

404
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 1: laws that harm kids, right, Like Chaia Rachel from Limbs

405
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 1: of TikTok is in her thirties, right, She's not a child.

406
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: And if you're curious, like what is she doing on

407
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: Twitter right now, well, right now she is mis gendering

408
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: next even in depth. She's on Twitter tonight mis gendering

409
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: a dead child. So no, it is not kids bullying

410
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: kids when you've got adults who are setting a very

411
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 1: clear agenda that criminalizes and demonizes lgbtqth right, Like, it's

412
00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 1: just like very clear to me that we're not talking

413
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: about like kids being awful to other kids. The adults

414
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 1: in the room who are supposed to be setting a

415
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: different example, are making it clear that this is going

416
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: to be tolerated, that this is okay, and participating in

417
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 1: it themselves. According to The Independent, one of nex's teachers

418
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: was actually featured in a secretly filmed video on libs

419
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: of TikTok. In April of twenty twenty two. This teacher

420
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: was filmed telling students, if your parents don't accept you

421
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 1: for who you are, fuck them. After a very big backlash,

422
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,719
Speaker 1: this teacher had to resign, and according to nex's guardian,

423
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 1: Next was really angry about this and to put this

424
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: in a larger context beyond just limbs of TikTok. Last year,

425
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: a court ruled that Oklahoma can enforce its law banning

426
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: and criminalizing gender refirming care for transminers while a suit

427
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 1: against it is heard. So that law would make providing

428
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: gender refirming care in Oklahoma a felony. And so yeah,

429
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: it's it's I it's it's impossible for me to talk

430
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: about what happened to Next without putting it in that

431
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: larger context where adults who really should know better are

432
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: creating the conditions for this kind of violence. And I

433
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: think we need to be really clear about the agenda

434
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: that they're setting, and not let them feign ignorance and

435
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: not let them be like, oh well, I don't want

436
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: anyone to get hurt. That is a very obvious example

437
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: of what is called stochastic terror, right where you don't

438
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 1: necessarily exblicitly come out and say like I want you

439
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: to harm trans people or I want you to do

440
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: harassing things to trans people, but you're not not saying that.

441
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: It's all very wink wink, not not. And I think

442
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: for too long we have let these people get away

443
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 1: with exactly that, Like, I don't like that libs of

444
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: TikTok is able to be like they're accusing me of

445
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: killing this young person and all I do is, you know,

446
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: post videos from Nexus School that criminalize transness and queerness,

447
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: and anybody who would support that, it's like, well that

448
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: is kind of what you're doing. You don't really get

449
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: to say that you're not doing it when that's what's

450
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: going on.

451
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, she stakes violence, like when she does, she

452
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: the purpose of her account is to soake violence, and like,

453
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 2: you know this is I get like, yeah, this is

454
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 2: what people have been saying, like this is gonna lead

455
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: to kids dying, and yeah, we're seeing that happen. We're like,

456
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 2: you know, I just like, yeah, Neck should still be alive.

457
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: This is just such a like terrible story, and it's

458
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 2: so clear like who's at fault here and what sort

459
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 2: of narratives are at fault and yeah, it's just horrifying.

460
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Matt bernste can put it really well. Matt says,

461
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: you took away their books, you took away their health care,

462
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: you took away their ability to use the right bathroom.

463
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: You fired the teachers who kept them safe. You demonize

464
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: them on television and on Twitter, all in the name

465
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: of quote protecting children. And I guess I just feel

466
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: like when people talk about protecting children, it's like what

467
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: about children?

468
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 2: Like next, I feel like all this so much of

469
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: like what's happening right now, it's literally just grown adults

470
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 2: trying to excuse the fact that they still want to

471
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: bully children, like they still It is like literally like

472
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: not so like psycho analysis or whatever, but like literally

473
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: it feels like these are just people that never got

474
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: over like whatever high school bully phase they went through,

475
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: and they're mad that they can't like like that that Yeah,

476
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: that things are I don't know, it is just it

477
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 2: is grown adults bullying children and bullying children to the

478
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: point where they're putting them in danger. And that is

479
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: so like disgusting and terrifying about this whole thing.

480
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: Yes, And it's like bullying children under the guys of

481
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: protecting children. If you're a protecting children, Next would still

482
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: be alive. Like, this is not protecting children. This is

483
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: bullying children. This is living out some kind of a

484
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: fucked up high school fantasy against a target that you

485
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: perceive as vulnerable and not unable to protect themselves. And

486
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: that I think that you're exactly right. I think that's

487
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: exactly what it is. And yeah, Next should still be alive.

488
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: I hate that this is a story that we're even

489
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,239
Speaker 1: having to talk about, but it is. It's what's going on.

490
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 1: It's what's happening in Oklahoma. And I really feel for

491
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 1: the community there, for NeXT's community who is grieving, and

492
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: it's just cont even in grief, even in death, just

493
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: constantly getting signals that this is okay. Like the superintendent

494
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: of Nex's school didn't even put out a statement, didn't

495
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: even say anything if a young person dies in one

496
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: of your schools. It's just like these people are ghouls

497
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: like I can't even like, I don't even know what

498
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: to say. At a certain point, if you are a

499
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: superintendent of a school and a child dies in the

500
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: school bathroom of a school in which you are meant

501
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: to be kind of in charge of, and you don't

502
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: even say anything because you know that you've spent the

503
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: last few years creating a toxic, violent environment for kids

504
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: like the one that died, it is really bad. It

505
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: is really bad. My heart breaks for next, My heart

506
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: breaks for next as family and community, And if we

507
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: get more information about what's going on in this story,

508
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: will definitely give you an update. Let's take a quick

509
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: break at our back. But this also feeds into how

510
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: LGBTQ youth are treated online, which actually does bring me

511
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: to an update that we have about the Kids Online

512
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: Safety Acts this week, So for folks who don't know,

513
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: the Kids Online Safety Act, otherwise known as KOSA, is

514
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: ostensibly about regulating how social media platforms operate for younger

515
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: users to protect them. If you're hearing scare quotes in

516
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: my voice, they're there, but kind of sounds like a

517
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: way to suppress and criminalize LGBTQ folks on content that's

518
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: not me saying this. I'm saying this because like exublicitly

519
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: that is how people behind it have spoken about it

520
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: and further survey and censor us all, which is why,

521
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: as much as we want a safer Internet for all

522
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: of us, children, adults, all of us, I would say

523
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: like in these parts, we have not been too thrilled

524
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: about this specific legislation. Joey, how would you describe your

525
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: thoughts on it?

526
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, UH, not necessarily thrilled puts it pretty well,

527
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 2: might be a little bit of an understatement. Uh. KOSA

528
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: is a very concerning piece of legislation that I think

529
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: uh does not do much to achieve the goal that

530
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: it says it is created to do.

531
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 4: Uh, which I.

532
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: I'm guessing we're gonna get into a lot of what

533
00:29:59,120 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: it does actually do.

534
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not great. Not excited about this one.

535
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not excited about it either. I It's tough

536
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: for me because I've always generally taken the position on

537
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: the podcast of like I will typically shy away from

538
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: advocating for or against specific legislation. However, on this one,

539
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: I feel like I have to be clear about my

540
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: reservations about it. Although I don't want to make it

541
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: seem like it is widely being panned because I went

542
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: to an event not that long ago. Actually, the group

543
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: that put on the event you talked about on your

544
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: very comprehensive Smitty episode. I went to it. It's like

545
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 1: youth designing better something.

546
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 4: I oh, design it for us?

547
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: Yes, that was it.

548
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, design it for us.

549
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: Just for the record, So this is a group that

550
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: claims to be a coalition of young activists and organizations

551
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: fighting for social media and online platforms kN Teina, Young

552
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: and Ultya. Yeah, okay, it is supposed to be led

553
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: by young people. It is about the internet. Why do

554
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: they have less than a thousand Instagram followers? They have

555
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: currently eight hundred and sixty five Instagram followers.

556
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 4: Like, I'm sorry, I know, like young people use social media.

557
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: This is the target group that should be on Instagram

558
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: to follow you. And also you are claiming to understand

559
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 2: how the internet works.

560
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I went, Producer Mike and myself

561
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: went to their like they had a kickoff event and

562
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: DC and we went it is I mean, I a

563
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: will to say I agree with you, like I think,

564
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like this is just my opinion and I

565
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: want to be clear that I I don't think that

566
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: KOSA is good legislation. And there are lots of organizations,

567
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: some of whom I trust and like, and I've worked

568
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: with some of whom I don't really know much about

569
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: and maybe are a little skeptical about if you know, uh,

570
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: who feel differently about it. But I have to say

571
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: how I feel like you're listening to this pod to

572
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: get my take, and I have to be honest about

573
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: that take, which is that I am suspect of the legislation.

574
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: And if you want more information, like a really good

575
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: deep dive, Joey actually did an amazing stuff mom ever

576
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 1: told You episode breaking down some of the concerns and

577
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: issues and origins of the Kids Online Safety Act and

578
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: the way that it could really change the Internet, not

579
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 1: just for young people but for everybody. So I definitely

580
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: recommend anybody interested check that out. So I feel like

581
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: I'm kind of here with a COOSA expert a little bit.

582
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 4: Oh thank you, I try.

583
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: I watched a lot of tiktoks for that episode, so

584
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: some might call me an expert.

585
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: Yes. So here's what's going on. So this week, Senate

586
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: Majority Leader Chuck Schumer announced his support for KOSA. The

587
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: bill also secured fifteen new sponsors, including Schumer, for a

588
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: total of sixty two co sponsors in the Senate, which

589
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: would give the bill enough votes to pass in the Senate.

590
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: So we're actually a lot closer to this bill becoming reality. Earlier,

591
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: when this bill was introduced, y'all might remember that LGBTQ

592
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: rights groups had been loudly objecting to COSA because of

593
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: provisions that could be interpreted, specifically at the state level

594
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: by attorneys general as defining what kind of content is

595
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: harmful to children. You know, after talking about what happened

596
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 1: to next, it doesn't take a fortune teller to assume

597
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: that it would probably include lawmakers and attorneys general being like, oh,

598
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: it is content pertaining to LGBTQ people that is harmful

599
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: and thus needs to be, you know, kept from youth

600
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: on the internet. We don't even really have to like speculate,

601
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: because Marsha Blackburn and the Heritage Foundation very clearly and

602
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: explicitly stated their intentions to use COSA to censor LGBTQ content.

603
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: So this is not me like gleaning or reading tea leaves.

604
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: This is meat is listening to the words that they

605
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: said and very plain, explicit, clear English. So that's why

606
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: LGBTQ groups were not down with COSA initially. But this

607
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: week The Hill reports that several LGBTQ advocacy organized dropped

608
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: their opposition to the Kids Online Safety Act after the

609
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: sponsors updated the text, inching the bill even closer to passing.

610
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 1: So the groups include Glad Glisten, the Human Rights Campaign,

611
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: p FLAG, the National Center for Lesbian Rights, the National

612
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: Center for Transgender Equality, and the Trevor Project. All of

613
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: these groups got together and sent a letter to Blumenthal,

614
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: one of the sponsors of this bill, withdrawing their opposition

615
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: following updates to the legislation. The letter reads, when COSA

616
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: was first introduced, we had serious concerns that the bill

617
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: could open the door to bad actors weaponizing the law

618
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: to suppress affirming content for LGBTQ young people. Some early

619
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: supporters of COSA even touted this is how they intended

620
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: to use the law. The considerable changes that you have

621
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: proposed to COSA in the draft released on February fifteenth

622
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: significantly mitigate the risk of being misused to suppress LGBTQ

623
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: plus resources or stifle young people's access to online communities

624
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: as such, if this draft of the bill moves forward,

625
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: our organizations will not app it's passage. So yeah, I

626
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: guess some of these LGBTQ plus advocacy organizations are like, listen,

627
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: if this moves on and becomes the law of the land,

628
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: we will no longer object.

629
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know.

630
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 2: I'm I'm still I feel like if you are creating

631
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: a law, and the intention of the law that you

632
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 2: create when you create it is to block kids and teenagers'

633
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: aspects to anything to do with like queerness or any

634
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 2: like gender nonconformity or anything, in my opinion, it's kind

635
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: of hard to redeem that and to find a way

636
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: to be like, no, actually we fixed it so it's

637
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: not homophobic and transphobic anymore, because like that's the point

638
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: of the bill that you like, you outright said that

639
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: this is why you're making this bill, And I don't like,

640
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: what's the point of I don't know, And but yeah,

641
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 2: I guess, you know, I guess at least it won't

642
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 2: be suppressing queer content anymore, or it'll just be suppressing

643
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: every other issue.

644
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 3: That we have, you know, going on in the world

645
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: right now.

646
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, exactly, so one of the LGBTQ advocacy organizations

647
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: is big beef with the previous draft of the bill

648
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: was the bill's duty of Care standard, which was meant

649
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: to mitigate the promotion of harmful content and the use

650
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: of harmful or addictive features for teens and kids online,

651
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: but again could be interpreted to deem anything involving you know,

652
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: LGBTQ content as harmful and thus kept away from kids. Right, So,

653
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: like it just had a pretty broad interpretation of what

654
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: harmful content was and kind of left it up to

655
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: states to decide what is or is not harmful content.

656
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: So in this updated version of the bill, the duty

657
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: of care is clarified to focus on the design, features

658
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: and components of the platform rather than on the content

659
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: hosted on those platforms. There's also a new bit added

660
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: that says that the provisions in the bill cannot be

661
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: the basis of any action brought by a state attorney

662
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: general under a state law. So I can see how

663
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: they're trying to tinker with it so that it's not

664
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: just like left up to you know, specific attorneys generals

665
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: at the state level to decide how to interpret this law.

666
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 1: So this is tricky, right, like, I do agree that

667
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 1: some of these changes made make the bill less obviously horrible.

668
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: I will be the first person to acknowledge that. However,

669
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: I am still, like you, Joey, just kind of not

670
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: buying it. And this is my opinion to like take

671
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: that for what it's worth. I think that KOSA is

672
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: still a bill that will lead to all of us

673
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: having to give over more information and more data in

674
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: the name of keeping kids safe. Namely, I'm talking about

675
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: age restrictions. Local governments already sell our private information and

676
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: data today to data brokers, right like we know this,

677
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 1: So I am to believe that requiring children and also

678
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: everyone else to give over more data to tech companies

679
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: and more like our our government IDs is going to

680
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: keep us safe and keep our our data more private.

681
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I simply do not believe this. Like this

682
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: is not I just like it's not a circle that

683
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: I can square. I simply do not believe it. I

684
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: am completely against age restrictions in this way because I

685
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: don't think it makes sense to hand over more of

686
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: our data to tech companies in order to achieve better

687
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: data privacy. It just like does not make sense to me,

688
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: does not compute if somebody smarter than me out there

689
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: doesn't agree and wants to explain to me how this

690
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: is actually keeping anybody safer, I would love to hear it,

691
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 1: but from my understanding, I just cannot see how it

692
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: actually will.

693
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think especially like the US is so we

694
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 2: do not have data privacy laws, and like we are

695
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: so behind on that, like in comparison to like Europe

696
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: or whatever. So it's like it's so it's so especially

697
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: kind of almost like insulting to like have this bill

698
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 2: be introduced and be like framed as this thing that's

699
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 2: about safety, Like it's just making the actual safety concerned

700
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: like more dangerous and more likely to happen to you.

701
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 3: I don't know.

702
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 5: Again, I feel like this is and I said, this

703
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 5: is the episode that I just will spent to you,

704
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 5: Like imagine having to put your full name and like

705
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 5: your ID and quote all of that in when you

706
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 5: just want to use the internet.

707
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 4: Like, I don't know, that just seems to be not

708
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 4: a good thing in my opinion.

709
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: But uh yeah, again, I guess that's not universal that

710
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: we all want data privacy.

711
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 4: I guess I don't know.

712
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: Well, you know what, showy, you and I are not

713
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: the only people who feel this way, and a piece

714
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: called Don't Fall for the latest changes to the Dangerous

715
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: Kids Online Safety Act on the Electronic Frontier Foundation's blog,

716
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 1: which we'll link to in the show notes, they argue

717
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: exactly that right. They say that this updated version of

718
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: the bill is still a vehicle for online censorship and

719
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: increase surveillance, which we already know deeply impacts marginalized communities.

720
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: So they write, in light of the overall politicization of

721
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: youth education and online activity, we believe the following groups,

722
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: just to name a few, will be endangered. LGBTQ plus

723
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: youth will be at risk of having content, educational material,

724
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: and their own online identities erased. Young people searching for

725
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: sexual health and reproductive rights information will find their search

726
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: results stymied. Teens and children and historically oppressed and marginalized

727
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: groups will be unable to locate information about their history

728
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: and shared experiences. Activist youth on either side of the aisle,

729
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 1: such as those fighting for changes to climate laws, gun laws,

730
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 1: or religious rights, will be siloed and unable to advocate

731
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 1: and connect on platforms. Young people seeking mental health help

732
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: and information will be blocked from finding it because even

733
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: discussions of suicide, depression, anxiety, and eating disorders will be

734
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: hidden from them. Teens hoping to combat the problem of addiction,

735
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: either their own or that of friends and families and neighbors,

736
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: will not have the resources they need to do so.

737
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: Any young person seeking truthful news or information that can

738
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: be considered depressing will find it harder to educate themselves

739
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: and engage in current events and honest discussion. Adults in

740
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: any of these groups who are unwilling to share identities

741
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: will find themselves shunted onto a second class Internet, alongside

742
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: the young people who have been denied access to this information.

743
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: They go on to say we shouldn't kid ourselves that

744
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: the latest version of COSA will stop state officials from

745
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: targeting vulnerable communities, and KOSA leaves all of the bills'

746
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: sensorial powers with the FTC, a five person commission nominated

747
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: by the President. This allows a small group of federal

748
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 1: officials appointed by the President to decide what content is

749
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: dangerous for young people. Placing this enforcement power with the

750
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: FTC is still a First Amendment problem. No government official,

751
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: state or federal, has the power to dictate by law

752
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: what people can read online, and that blog post really

753
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: confirms my feelings on this legislation, even the updated version.

754
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: Like I understand that these groups that I respect them,

755
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: that I think do good work, are saying that they

756
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: largely no longer take issue with it in the way

757
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: they did before. But I still think it's pretty scary,

758
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: and I just I am doing a bit of few

759
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: sure casting imagining another Trump presidency where President Trump has

760
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: the ability to nominate this five person FTC Commission and

761
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: essentially can decide what people can read and post about online.

762
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: It is pretty scary, it is, and I think even

763
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: beyond just thinking about the future, like we're in the

764
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 2: middle of a like crack down on information and content

765
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: that's coming out about Palestine, about what's happening in Palestine,

766
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: and a crackdown on protesters. Like in New York where

767
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 2: I live, there have been multiple incidents of protesters they're

768
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: being attacked by counter protesters and like kind of not

769
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 2: you know that the police kind of clearly taking aside

770
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 2: and letting certain actions slide versus others, or instances where

771
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 2: people were being arrested just for using slogans or for

772
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: putting up stickers, Like this isn't there's an active cracked

773
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 2: on free speech that is happening under this administration. And

774
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: I think this is why like this, I'm disappointed but

775
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,479
Speaker 2: not surprised. And I think in a lot of these

776
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 2: like LGBT organizations, because I think there really is which

777
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 2: is this is a whole other conversation about kind of

778
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 2: mainstream LGBTQ plus like nonprofits and all of that. But

779
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 2: I think like what's happening is kind of a lack

780
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 2: of a refusal to show solidarity with other marginalized groups,

781
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 2: because it's almost like saying like, oh, okay, we have

782
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: a little bit of reassurance that this isn't gonna affect us.

783
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 3: But like we're gonna let it happen to other people.

784
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: And although you know, and all these groups intersect too,

785
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 2: you know, lots of lots of queer.

786
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 4: People deal with mental health issues.

787
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: A lot of queer people also deal with issues of

788
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 2: like you know, other like oppression, because there are other

789
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: like part of our other marginalized groups as well. Yeah,

790
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 2: I something I saw talking about this latest UH update

791
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: brought up something that I hadn't really thought about it

792
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 2: this way, but it the speaker was talking about how

793
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: like COOSA comes from this place where it's the assumption

794
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: is that social media and the internet is bad for

795
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 2: children full stop, like there's no benefits from it. And

796
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 2: they were like encouraging people to share stories about how

797
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: social media or the internet has helped them because like

798
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: it's helped them get out of you know, like a

799
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: difficult situation or find community and all that. And I think, like,

800
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: and we've talked about in the show, like I personally

801
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: have like found a lot of community through the Internet.

802
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 2: I've also experienced a lot of the bad sides of

803
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 2: the Internet, but I've seen the good too. It has

804
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: also helped me deal with you know, mental health issue

805
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: like you know, depression and all that in the past.

806
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: That being said, I also, you know can see how

807
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 2: it's made certain issues worse and particularly like I don't know,

808
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 2: like I was on Tumblr when like there was a

809
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: lot of glorification of like eating disorders, but also the Internet. Yeah,

810
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 2: like but it ultimately is just kind of a it's

811
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 2: like we've created this new like space for people to

812
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: be and it's it's hard to you know, just sort

813
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 2: of preventing people from talking about things full stop because

814
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 2: they can lead to harmful.

815
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 4: Things.

816
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 2: Happening or complicated discussions or whatever like that doesn't that's

817
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 2: not effective. And again, like when you especially when you

818
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 2: list out all of these things that are still going

819
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 2: to be affected by this legulation, it's so clear to see, like, yeah,

820
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: like you know, the Heritage Foundation might not be super

821
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 2: happy that it's going to be a little bit harder

822
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 2: for them to repress queer content, but they also have

823
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 2: they have stakes in trying to repress content about reproductive

824
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: health and sexual health and about you know, certain activist

825
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: groups or our struggles or whatever. Like there's still kind

826
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 2: of a political motivation there that I think has really

827
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 2: scary implications for all of us, and really scary implications

828
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 2: for just like freedom of speech in general.

829
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad that you phrased it that way, And

830
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: I want to be clear, I don't think that any

831
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 1: president should have the power to like pick the five

832
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: person group who gets to decide like what issues are

833
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 1: okay and what issues aren't. But I think that there

834
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: might I guess I say that to say that, like,

835
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: I think there might be people I am not one

836
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: of them, but I think there might be people listening

837
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: who are like, well, you know, Biden would be fine.

838
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: If Biden had that power, it would be okay. And

839
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: the answer is no, it wouldn't be okay because, as

840
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 1: you said, there is currently a crackdown on all kinds

841
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: of speech and all kinds of political and social expressions

842
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: with Biden in the White House. So no, that's not

843
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: the case. But also like no president should have that power,

844
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: full stop. And I think you're exactly right that against

845
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: the backdrop of I don't know, I can only really

846
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: call it like a very chilling era of a crackdown

847
00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: on free expression happening before our very eyes, but in

848
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: this like almost gas lighting way where it's like, no,

849
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: it's not be talking about like you know what I mean,

850
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: It's it's like a very weird time.

851
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Bridget, are you saying that with Biden as president?

852
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 4: We can't just go back to brunch.

853
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: We can just go back to listen, if Biden was

854
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: in the White House, I wouldn't be in the street.

855
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: That would be at brunch, Joey.

856
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 4: I go to court. Everything's signed, everything's great.

857
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it, okay. So,

858
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: speaking of everything being on fire and awful, I regret

859
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: to inform you that new AI generated deep fakes have

860
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 1: just dropped. I almost didn't include this because lord, am

861
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: I tired of talking about this? Like, I hope the

862
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: day comes that I can shut up about this and

863
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be something I'm talking about all

864
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: the time. But unfortunately that day is not today because

865
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: podcaster Bobby Elfoff. Do you know Bobby elf Off? Her

866
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: thing is kind of like she people call her like

867
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: a NEPO baby or an industry plant. Her thing is

868
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: kind of like doing cringey kind of awkward interviews with

869
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: like rappers. Do you know Bobby?

870
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 2: I don't, but I do get a lot of those

871
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: like tiktoks where it's like a random clip from a

872
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 2: podcast that seems like it would be this kind of thing.

873
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've probably seen Bobby's podcast. So Bobby is

874
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: just the latest target of viral AI non consensual deep

875
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: fake videos, specifically on Twitter. So, as we've talked about

876
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: on the show, this has happened a lot before. Unfortunately,

877
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: it happened to Taylor Swift, it happened to Marvel Star,

878
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: Social Gomez. Social Gomes is seventeen, so a minor and

879
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 1: with all of these viral deep fakes. All of them

880
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 1: have really gotten a lot of traction, specifically on Twitter,

881
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: and now a new report in The Washington Post is

882
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: shedding life on why Twitter has kind of become the

883
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: platform for deep fix going viral. Now, I have to say,

884
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: none of this is terribly surprising to me. If you

885
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: listen to this podcast, none of this is probably terribly

886
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 1: surprising to you. It is the kind of thing that like, yes.

887
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 4: I wonder what the problem is.

888
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure you could guess. Honestly, I truly

889
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: was going to add in a clip from an earlier

890
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: podcast episode that we did when Elon Musk first took

891
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: over Twitter and started making changes, because literally I was like, oh, well,

892
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: this is going to happen, This is going to happen,

893
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 1: This is going to happen. I thought that would sound

894
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: very obnoxious and probably like too smug, because nobody likes

895
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: somebody who says I told you so. But listeners just

896
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: know I could have added that if I wanted to,

897
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: because it exists. Because you didn't have to be a

898
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: fortune teller or a mind reader to tell the hell

899
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 1: that the changes that Elon Musk made was going to

900
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: lead to on Twitter.

901
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I think I think you get to say

902
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 4: I told you so.

903
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: You know what I'm going to say it, Hey, Elon Musk,

904
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,240
Speaker 1: I told you so so. Just like those Taylor Swift images,

905
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: the images of Bobby although started on message boards so

906
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: not on Twitter. When they first started on message boards,

907
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: they had a relatively small audience. The post report of

908
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: the videos got one hundred and seventy eight thousand views

909
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: over the last six months on message boards like four chan,

910
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 1: But then someone brought those videos to Twitter, where they

911
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 1: blew up. This week. It was reposted so many times

912
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: that Althoff's name was trending on the platform. In just

913
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: nine hours, the clip received more than four point five

914
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: million views, twenty five times more than the porn site's viewership,

915
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: according to data from an industry analyst. So one of

916
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: the most popular posts on Twitter directing viewers to the

917
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: video remained online for more than thirty hours. Another post,

918
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: which promised to send the full Bobby Althoff leaks to

919
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: everyone who like and comment, was online for twenty hours.

920
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: Twitter only removed it after The Washington Post reached out

921
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: to them for a comment on the fake videos. By

922
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 1: the video was removed, it had been viewed more than

923
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: five million times. So this is obviously a problem, and

924
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: Twitter is a unique platform when it comes to how

925
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: and why deep fakes spread so easily. So even though

926
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 1: Twitter was one of the first platforms to outrite ban

927
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: synthetic AI generated content and deep fakes, this was long

928
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: before Musk took over. Back in twenty twenty, Twitter executive

929
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: said that they recognized the threat of misleading synthetic media

930
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: and they were committed to doing this right. But when

931
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: Elon Musk took over, changes that he made early on

932
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: to Twitter have basically gone on to make Twitter not

933
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: just a place where people post deep fakes, but also

934
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: a place where people can be ensured that their deep

935
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: fakes will get lots of traction and lots of eyeballs. Like, seriously,

936
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: go back and listen to some of our earlier episodes.

937
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 1: You didn't have to be a genius or a rocket

938
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: scientist to figure this out. So here's how the Post

939
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: reports it. Under owner Elon Musk, x has now become

940
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: one of the most powerful and prominent distribution channels for

941
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: non consensual deep fake pornat not only helps the phony

942
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 1: photos and videos go viral in a low moderation environment,

943
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: but it can also end up rewarding deep fake spreaders

944
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: who use manipulated porn to make a buck. So the

945
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: way that Elon is running Twitter has basically turned the

946
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: platform into a deep fake marketplace and also advertising machine

947
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: where bad actors can make money by exploiting women through

948
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: these gross fake photos. If there is one thing that

949
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: I hope that people take away from this bit of

950
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: the show is that it is not just creeps posting

951
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: gross fake images of women. It is creeps who are

952
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: making money posting fake images of women, and Twitter is

953
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 1: enabling them to do so more effectively by giving the

954
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: money for doing it and by essentially allowing them to

955
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: market and advertise their creepy, gross fake images of women. So,

956
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 1: to be clear, in my book, both Twitter and Elon

957
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 1: Musk personally are complicit in a criminal money making enterprise.

958
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: Like that is how I see this. I don't see

959
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: it as just disparate creeps posting deep fake images. To me,

960
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: this is a criminal money making enterprise that Elon Musk

961
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: is actively engaged in. So here's how the whole thing works.

962
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: So y'all know that Twitter Blue subscribers that get a

963
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: blue check are paying to in part have their content

964
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: get more visibility on Twitter, and because Twitter offers payouts

965
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: for posts that get like lots of engagements and lots

966
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: of views on the platform, many of the people sharing

967
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 1: those deep fake videos of Bobby have a blue check mark,

968
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: which also means that they could be making money from

969
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: that video. That is, if Elon Musk actually pays as

970
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: he says he is. We've talked about that quite a bit.

971
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: And you even have people who are trying to boost

972
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 1: the videos engagement by tweeting that it's the quote real

973
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: leaked Bobby footage, as if to tell people like, oh, yeah,

974
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: there's like fake Bobby videos floating around, but I have

975
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: the real Bobby video. You're gonna want to click here

976
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: to see this real content, or saying like we'll DM

977
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 1: the longer, real video to anybody who shares this, because

978
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: the more people who share and engage, the more money

979
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,720
Speaker 1: they stand to make from Elon Musk's you know, payment program.

980
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: And so these people are really exploiting Twitter's lax rules, moderation,

981
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:16,359
Speaker 1: and pay to play engagement mechanisms to essentially create trailers

982
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: to put on Twitter to get people to buy longer

983
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: deep fake videos, which is why they're not keeping them

984
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: on four Chan. Right, So, like a lot of these

985
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: videos and a lot of this content, it starts on

986
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: four Chan and then it gets like, you know, kind

987
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 1: of a niche audience. But the reason why they're putting

988
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: them on Twitter is because they want more people to

989
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 1: see it, because they have a marketplace. They then will

990
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: like ask people to give them money in order to

991
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: get more deep fake images. So essentially it's like a

992
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: coming attractions for AI generated exploitive deep sakes of women.

993
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: One person was offering to sell a longer fake video

994
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: of Bobby for ten dollars payable via PayPal, according to

995
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: The Washington Post. So this is like a business enterprise,

996
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 1: complete with advertising platform support and payment processors like PayPal.

997
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 1: So we already have platforms like four Chan, which are

998
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 1: you know, message boards known for this kind of harmful

999
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: content that are kind of fringe. But Twitter used to

1000
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: be very different from four Chan right before Must took

1001
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: over it. It's where journalists and elected officials are posting content.

1002
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 1: So the fact that we're seeing Twitter kind of become

1003
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: more like four Chan under Elon Musk is really telling

1004
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: to me, right, Like, it really seems like if this

1005
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 1: is going to be the kind of stuff that is

1006
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: tolerated on Twitter. It really says a lot about how

1007
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: far Twitter has fallen under Elon Musk's leadership. Genevievo, an

1008
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: analyst who studies deep fake, says that Twitter is four

1009
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: Chan two. It's emboldening future malicious figures to coordinate towards

1010
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: demeaning more popular women with synthetic footage and imagery. So

1011
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: I should say Twitter technically does ban non consensual nudity,

1012
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: but there is basically no enforcement of that because the

1013
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: team that handles it Musk basically like fired and laid

1014
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: off and got it as soon as he took over.

1015
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: And I also just think that like Elon Musk just

1016
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: doesn't care, Like he could not signal that more. If

1017
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,800
Speaker 1: he says he cares, I think that he is lying

1018
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: because he knows that people are upset. But I just

1019
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: genuinely don't think he sees this as the big issue

1020
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 1: and the big threat that it is.

1021
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 4: Elon Musk doesn't care about women, what I know. I mean,

1022
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 4: he's surprised.

1023
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: He seems like the kind of guy who would have

1024
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: a stellar track record when it comes to respecting women.

1025
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that is definitely what I associate him with.

1026
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 1: So after the Taylor Swift Deep things went viral, y'all

1027
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,399
Speaker 1: might recall that Musk was like, I'm going to open

1028
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: a whole team and Austin dedicated to content moderation for Twitter.

1029
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: But the day before these Bobby Outoff videos went viral,

1030
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 1: Musk was just laughing off the need for any kind

1031
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 1: of real content moderations. He shared a post that called

1032
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 1: content moderation a quote digital chastity belt and a steaming

1033
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: pile of horsemenre enforced only by digital tyrants, saying let's

1034
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,280
Speaker 1: give a big middle finger to content moderation and embrace

1035
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: the chaos of the Internet. You know who probably does

1036
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: not want to embrace this chaos, Women like Taylor Swift

1037
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 1: and Social Gomez and Bobby Althof and any other woman

1038
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 1: or girl who has been targeted and depicted in these

1039
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: non consensual images. It is just such a clown show

1040
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: over there. Like the fact that Bobby Althos's name was

1041
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 1: trending on Twitter in relation to this was wild to me,

1042
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: Like the trends used to be moderated by humans who

1043
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: could like manually delete trends that were harmful or rule breaking.

1044
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: But of course Musk fire the people who do that.

1045
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: So now a woman's name can be trending for hours

1046
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: on the platform, and the reason why it is trending

1047
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: is because of deep fake images of her on the platform.

1048
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: It's basically free advertising for this rule breaking behavior. And

1049
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 1: you know, something else unique about Twitter is that it's

1050
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 1: the only platform that allows nudity. So with the rise

1051
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 1: of AI deep fakes, I don't know. I just think that, like,

1052
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:10,479
Speaker 1: I don't know that Twitter is going to be able

1053
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: to really be responsible for sorting out what is consensual

1054
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: real nudity and what isn't. I just don't think they're

1055
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: really up for the task.

1056
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's a conscious choice that they're not

1057
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 2: for the task. I think it's important to remember because again,

1058
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 2: like they this is a problem that could be fixed

1059
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 2: if they, you know, or at least sort of alleviated

1060
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 2: to some extent. I think if they really wanted to,

1061
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: and it's clear that they do not care.

1062
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: I completely agree. And this is just my opinion, and

1063
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: I would be curious to know what folks think. I

1064
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: have a sense that whoever is making these deep fakes

1065
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: and then releasing them on Twitter specifically is choosing like

1066
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: a specific kind of public figure. I think they're choosing

1067
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: famous women who are perceived to be like annoying in

1068
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: some way, and I think it's I think it's about

1069
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 1: kind of like almost like a test of like, well,

1070
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: you know, this woman is annoying or like she's everywhere,

1071
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: she's like oversaturated. So if I make a cruel, sexually

1072
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: humiliating deep thake of her, maybe people will like like it.

1073
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: Like I almost I almost feel like there's something about

1074
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: the women that they're targeting that is like, I don't know,

1075
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: maybe I'm way off base here. I think they're picking

1076
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: a specific kind of female public figure because they're not

1077
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: expecting the public to loudly decry it when it's someone

1078
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: who is perceived as like quote overexposed. So I think

1079
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 1: it's I'm curious to see how this goes. I think

1080
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: that nobody deserves this. I think that even if it's

1081
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 1: somebody that you that you think like, oh, this is

1082
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 1: the person is a billionaire, this person's very rich, I

1083
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 1: see them everywhere, blah blah blah, nobody deserves this right,

1084
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: Like it's completely fine to not like somebody without making

1085
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: sexually humiliating content of them that is meant to take

1086
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 1: them down, humiliate them, objectify them, and remind them and

1087
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 1: the public that they do not have agency over their

1088
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 1: body and their choices. And so I think it's disgusting.

1089
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 1: I think it's even more discussing that Elon Musk is

1090
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: essentially laughing this off as his platform becomes a unique

1091
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: vector for advertising this this kind of material. And I

1092
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: think that Elon Musk at some point needs to be

1093
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 1: held accountable for this, Like he can read this Washington

1094
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 1: Post article as well as I can and see how

1095
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: his choices have specifically turned the platform into a marketplace

1096
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: for this kind of behavior. And yeah, I guess I'll

1097
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: just leave it there.

1098
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to add one word thing which I

1099
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 2: think also it's especially with like you know, talking about

1100
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 2: Kosa earlier in the episode. The problem isn't nudity. The

1101
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 2: problem isn't explicit material. The problem is the fact that

1102
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 2: this is taken without consent. This is material that is

1103
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 2: like literally manufactured without any consent, without any action on

1104
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 2: behalf of the person.

1105
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 4: It's like for it.

1106
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 2: Like like I don't know, I mean this is again

1107
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 2: like this is another discussion, but like I'm of the

1108
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 2: belief that like whatever, like poorn exists on the internet.

1109
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 2: Nudity exists people like should you know, be able to

1110
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 2: access that.

1111
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 4: I think that is like a fair thing to say,

1112
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 4: But like.

1113
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 2: The part of this that is disgusting and messed up

1114
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 2: is the fact that it is non consensual and the

1115
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 2: fact that these are again oftentimes the same people that

1116
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 2: are you know, supporting or like participating in efforts to

1117
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 2: crack down on sex workers. That you know, if you

1118
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 2: really just wanted to have like more porn in the world,

1119
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 2: you would think you would just support sex workers and

1120
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 2: people that do that stuff professionally.

1121
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's not like the problem here, is it.

1122
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 2: And I think this is important to clarify again too,

1123
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 2: with especially talking about the Kosa story, because I think

1124
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 2: that isn't like I can easily see how this sort

1125
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 2: of story would be twisted to be like, see, we

1126
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 2: just need to get rid of all. No, the problem

1127
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 2: is like, this is an issue with deep fakes. This

1128
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 2: is an issue with a lack of respect for boundaries

1129
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 2: and consent. And you know, this is about sexual violence.

1130
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 2: This is not a condemnation of the fact that you know,

1131
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 2: people are being portrayed a certain way or that nudity

1132
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 2: is like making its way onto these platforms, you know, yeah.

1133
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And we actually talked about this last week, how

1134
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: like creeps are also using AI to like make reverse

1135
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: deep fakes that are also not okay, where they women

1136
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 1: who consentraally want to be in various stages of undress

1137
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: on the Internet, they use AI to cover them up.

1138
01:02:55,280 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 1: It's not about sexuality, and it's not about you know, nudity.

1139
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: It is about taking away someone's agency without their consent.

1140
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 1: Is about telling them that their choices for their own

1141
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 1: body don't matter because we have the technology to strip

1142
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: you from that choice. And like you said, Joey, if

1143
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: you want to see nudity on the internet, God love them.

1144
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: There are no less than a million people out there

1145
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 1: who are in various stages of undress on the Internet.

1146
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 1: But it's not really about that, right, It is about

1147
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 1: I want this person who has not given me consent.

1148
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: I want them to know that I can depict them

1149
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 1: nude on the Internet against their will, without their consent.

1150
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: It is about power. It is about humiliation. It is

1151
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: about stripping women of their agency, not about like exppressions

1152
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 1: of sexuality or nudity, like full stop. So I do

1153
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: have a little bit of good Twitter news for folks.

1154
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:47,439
Speaker 1: So back when Elon musk first bought Twitter and laid

1155
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 1: off a bunch of staffers, he was particularly cruel to

1156
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: the staff in Ghana, Africa. The Twitter office in Ghana

1157
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 1: had just been set up, so many of these staffers

1158
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: had moved from other countries to take jobs at Twitter,

1159
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: only to be let go with no notice a few

1160
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 1: months in after Elon took over. They were promised a

1161
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 1: month of wages under their contract and under Ghanaan employment law,

1162
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 1: staff have to be paid out if they are laid

1163
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 1: off for redundancy, which these staffers were. But as y'all know,

1164
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 1: Elon musk Aka sharrees, she don't pay. He doesn't pay,

1165
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 1: he doesn't pay his bills. He rap owes money all

1166
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: over town. Who doesn't pay, So these staffers threatened to

1167
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 1: sue to get their money. Twitter missed deadline after deadline

1168
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 1: and essentially ghosted them, probably thinking that these you know,

1169
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: Ghanaian Twitter staffers would just shut up and go away.

1170
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 1: But they didn't shut up and go away, so after

1171
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 1: a year they finally have gotten their payout. One of

1172
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 1: the staffers says, it is difficult when the world's richest

1173
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:47,920
Speaker 1: man is owing you money and closure. I have a

1174
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 1: say like shout out to the staffers for staying on it.

1175
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 1: I'm happy they got their money. But I also have

1176
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:56,919
Speaker 1: to say, like watching Elon Musk do rich guys shit

1177
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 1: like oh I'm going to Mars, Oh I'm gonna do this,

1178
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do that while he is at her owing

1179
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 1: you money. That would shat my ass. But I guess

1180
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 1: it's like easy to do a bunch of rich guy

1181
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: shit when you don't pay your bills. When you can

1182
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:10,959
Speaker 1: rack up a bunch of bills and not.

1183
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 2: Pay Yeah, how uh do you expect him to get

1184
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 2: so rich if he has to pay for things like

1185
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 2: bills and labor? And I don't know, that's just too

1186
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 2: much for one guy.

1187
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 1: I mean I can like go to a restaurant and

1188
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: like pop bottles and you know, get a private jet

1189
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 1: if I don't pay for anybody can. If that's if

1190
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 1: that's the secret to living a wealthy lifestyle, Like anybody

1191
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: can do that, Just go rack up a bunch of

1192
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: bills and just not pay.

1193
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 4: Just something.

1194
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: And I have to give a major shout out to

1195
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: CNN's Larry and Medoo for really staying on this story.

1196
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: He first reported it back when Elon must took over

1197
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 1: Twitter and stayed on this beat. So thank you for

1198
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 1: helping to get this accountability. Larry, and I have one

1199
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: other quick piece of good news kind of her me specifically,

1200
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 1: which is that I feel like, you know, I've been

1201
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 1: trying to use alternatives to Twitter, like Blue Sky and

1202
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: threads more, and I feel like I have gotten my

1203
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 1: first truly good bit of Blue Sky low stakes drama.

1204
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: That Joey, if you will, re opened this episode with

1205
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 1: me explaining some drama to you. I would love to

1206
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 1: close with explaining a little bit of low stakes drama

1207
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 1: to you, if that's okay.

1208
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 4: Cours always here for the drama.

1209
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 1: So someone on Blue Sky there they unfortunately had a

1210
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 1: death in their family and they posted a picture of

1211
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: a woman who was wearing like a big hat and

1212
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: sunglasses who came to the funeral. And this person was like,

1213
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 1: this person crashed my family member's funeral and they ate

1214
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of free food. And it wasn't until my

1215
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 1: family went up to them and was like, hey, who

1216
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: do you know here? Like how did you know the

1217
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 1: deceased that we realized they were a funeral crasher. I'm

1218
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 1: so angry, and rather than people being like, yeah, that's

1219
01:06:56,720 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 1: really messed up for someone to do this, there are

1220
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 1: a lot of people were like, well, what if they

1221
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 1: just wanted a meal? What if they were just lowely?

1222
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 1: You're so rude not letting this person crash the funeral.

1223
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 6: Oh no, wait, no, this is just I uh, it's

1224
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 6: the Twitter thing where if you're not oh my god.

1225
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 4: No.

1226
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 1: So this is how I feel like, I know that

1227
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 1: Blue Sky might actually be popping because you've gotten our

1228
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 1: first like truly deranged group response to somebody's like very

1229
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 1: legitimate complaint, like what kind of asshole doesn't want a

1230
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 1: stranger at a family funeral? Like so I think, I think,

1231
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. It lifted my spirits to see this.

1232
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, nature is healing. We're having

1233
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: this kind of discourse again, and so yeah, maybe blue

1234
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: Sky really will be popping now that it is a

1235
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 1: place to have truly deranged discourse in one place.

1236
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 4: You know what, it is a.

1237
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 2: Pillar of our society, and I'm I'm glad that's continuing.

1238
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 2: I'm glad I'm getting to hear everyone these unsolicited takes.

1239
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, give me your bad takes. I

1240
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 1: want them to wash over me. Joey one person whose

1241
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: takes I always think are good? Are yours? Thank you

1242
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 1: so much for being here and helping us break down

1243
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 1: these stories.

1244
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 2: Of course, Bridget happy to be here as always.

1245
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 1: Where can folks keep up with what your up to?

1246
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 2: You can find me on social media and you know

1247
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 2: on on Instagram and Twitter for the moment, did not

1248
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 2: yet make a blue sky but I should be doing

1249
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 2: that tune but yeah. You can find me at Patna Pratt.

1250
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 2: That's p A T T n O T p r

1251
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 2: A T t uh. You can also check out Afterlives

1252
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:47,720
Speaker 2: the Leley and Polanco story as a series that I

1253
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:51,200
Speaker 2: just worked on that wrapped up about a month ago. Uh,

1254
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 2: check out that spiny episode that's gonna be in the

1255
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 2: notes but end.

1256
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm everywhere.

1257
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 1: So check out Shoeby's work and thanks to all of

1258
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:03,919
Speaker 1: you for listening. I will see you on the internet.

1259
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 1: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check

1260
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,679
Speaker 1: out our merch store at tegoty dot com slash store.

1261
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

1262
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at

1263
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 1: Hello at teangody dot com. You can also find transcripts

1264
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 1: for today's episode at TENG Goody dot com. There Are

1265
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.

1266
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:28,720
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative, edited by

1267
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:32,839
Speaker 1: Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison

1268
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almada is our

1269
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Toad. If you want

1270
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

1271
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

1272
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.