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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back George. Nor with you with

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Speaker 1: Gary Gagliardi and his websites are linked up at Coast

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Speaker 1: to Coast dot com. Gary. Do you think successful generals

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Speaker 1: like George Patton, for example, may have read the Art

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Speaker 1: of War? Almost certainly. Yeah. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: it's taught in the United States military academies and all

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Speaker 1: going all the way back to Napoleon. That was supposedly

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Speaker 1: the first person that studied the art of introwest to

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Speaker 1: that is you translation was a French translation brought back

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Speaker 1: by the Jesuit missionaries. That's back in the seventeen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: wasn't it. Yeah, it was like eighteenth Yeah, seventeen hundreds, right,

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Speaker 1: was seventeen whatever? Yeah, I can't remember exactly seventeen seventy two.

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Speaker 1: I've done my homework for you, Gary, good job. You

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Speaker 1: have said that. Go ahead. But the point is that

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Speaker 1: it's not only about war. It's about how you manage

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Speaker 1: human hierarchies. You know. The idea that suns who taught

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Speaker 1: was that a good general doesn't fight a hundred battles

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Speaker 1: and win one hundred battles. A good general finds a

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Speaker 1: way to win without fighting a single battle. And the

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Speaker 1: way you do that is developed positions where people don't

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Speaker 1: want to fight you, and instead they want to join you,

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Speaker 1: they want to support you. That's a good point too.

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Speaker 1: You say that the English translations of the book, including

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Speaker 1: your own, may be misleading, Tell me about that. Well.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the English translations, any translation done before

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy is going to be incomplete. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the Sun Zoo's work was banned, It was passed down

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Speaker 1: through the aristocratic families. There were seven different versions, you know.

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Speaker 1: The early English translations all came at the end of

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Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, at the beginning that excuse me, the

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Speaker 1: end of it at nineteenth century, at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century, and they were all from fragmentary versions.

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Speaker 1: The first complete version wasn't put together till nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: in Taiwan, and there's only been a few translations of

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Speaker 1: that version. In mine is one of them. But all

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Speaker 1: of them are misleading just simply because they're done in

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Speaker 1: the context to war and people read them that way.

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Speaker 1: The book is really not about fighting, It's about the

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Speaker 1: human psychology that helps us understand our competitive position how

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Speaker 1: to advance it. You know, we read these translations and

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Speaker 1: I'll tell I did it myself when I first read it,

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Speaker 1: and I read it as fighting, and I read it

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Speaker 1: as battling, and I read it as you know, the

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, stuff you have to do to

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Speaker 1: take somebody else's position. But what the book really teaches

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Speaker 1: is how to develop positions of your own where you

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Speaker 1: don't have to fight people, where you move into openings

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Speaker 1: where people not only let you move up in the hierarchy,

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Speaker 1: but they actually help you and support you in moving up.

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Speaker 1: And that's what Sensu's book taught. He taught that, you know,

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Speaker 1: if an actual battle where people are killed takes place,

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Speaker 1: well there's a mistake that's been made. Point general thought

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Speaker 1: they could win, and at least one of them is wrong,

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Speaker 1: and probably both of them are wrong because they're both

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Speaker 1: going to suffer more than they need to by choosing

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Speaker 1: to fight one another. His idea of winning was cooperation,

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Speaker 1: wasn't it exactly? People think that that competition is the

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Speaker 1: opposite of cooperation, but in reality, competition is required to

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Speaker 1: create competition, because you can't compete with everybody. You have

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Speaker 1: to choose who you're going to cooperate with and how,

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Speaker 1: and that means that you have competing alternatives. And anytime

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Speaker 1: there's a choice to be made, that's when competition takes place.

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Speaker 1: Competition is really making a choice. And you know it's

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Speaker 1: true in sports you work those choices out by people

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Speaker 1: playing on the field, but in human minds, who they

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Speaker 1: choose to support has to be worked out in your head.

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Speaker 1: You know, the army that wins is the army that

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Speaker 1: has the most support from their people, from their country,

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Speaker 1: from their soldiers. You know, and Sun too taught that

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Speaker 1: size wasn't strength. What is strength. Great strength is unity

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Speaker 1: and focus and that's you know, what most people lack

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Speaker 1: today is unity and focus. They aren't focused, and they

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of people don't have any goals.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the workers really one about human psychology

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Speaker 1: and the fact that our competitive positions are what we're

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Speaker 1: trying to maintain in those positions only exist in human minds.

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Speaker 1: And you say his works basically can be used in

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Speaker 1: personal relationships, parenting, all kinds of things. I think that's fantastic. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've done. Yeah, it's funny because at first I was

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Speaker 1: doing this only in business because that's where my reputation,

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Speaker 1: and I had some success because I built an eight

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Speaker 1: five hundred company and it was known for that. But

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Speaker 1: then I got cancer and I went through treatment and

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Speaker 1: all this stuff, and I saw that people, you know,

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Speaker 1: were literally dying because they didn't know how to make

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Speaker 1: good decisions. They didn't know how to weigh their alternatives,

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Speaker 1: they didn't know how to get information, they didn't know

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Speaker 1: how to position themselves to survive. And so I began

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Speaker 1: change my focus and began writing books about personal relationships.

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Speaker 1: I had a terrible first marriage and a great second marriage,

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Speaker 1: and so I'd learned about that. In my second marriage,

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Speaker 1: I was using Sun DU's ideas and about parenting and

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Speaker 1: about you know, helping kids, you know, manage through school

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Speaker 1: and things like that, and you know, I ended up

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Speaker 1: writing a book called The Golden Key to Strategy that

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Speaker 1: won Ben Franklin Award is the best self help psychology

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Speaker 1: book of the year. And you know, it was very

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Speaker 1: rewarding thing to go through something like cancer and realize

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Speaker 1: that I could help other people other than just business people.

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Speaker 1: Is that why you've kind of disappeared over the last

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Speaker 1: several years? Was it that well. Um, I really stopped

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Speaker 1: doing my formal training about five years ago, and you know,

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Speaker 1: i'd done in the software business of my company I've

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Speaker 1: worked with. I have a short attention span at last

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Speaker 1: about fifteen years, and I did I did software for

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Speaker 1: about fifteen years. And when I made my money there,

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Speaker 1: I could have obviously started other software with nineteen nineties

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Speaker 1: when I sold my company, and I'd been very successful,

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Speaker 1: and I could have done more of that, but I

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Speaker 1: had enough money that I wasn't worried about. I could

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Speaker 1: do anything I wanted, and so I really loved Sunzu.

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Speaker 1: So I did that for about fifteen years. And after

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Speaker 1: you know, my books, I've won a number of awards,

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Speaker 1: I traveled the world. My books have been translated all

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Speaker 1: over the world. I got to you know, meet and

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Speaker 1: work with you know the world leadings organizations and great

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Speaker 1: people all over the world. You know, we had trainers

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Speaker 1: at one point all over the world using my stuff.

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Speaker 1: And but after a while, you know, i'd been there

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Speaker 1: and done that, and I just, you know, it got

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Speaker 1: to be too much like work. And I've always been

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Speaker 1: a pretty lazy fellow, and you know, I still want

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Speaker 1: to help people, but the Sun's As far as traveling

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Speaker 1: around and doing all the work I was doing, promoting

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Speaker 1: and stuff, I just didn't didn't have the fire in

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Speaker 1: the beility to do it. Everybody needs a mission, you know,

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Speaker 1: and and I think the big problem with most people

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Speaker 1: is they don't have a mission. And you know, the

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Speaker 1: chemicals that keep track of our natural hierarchies, you know,

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Speaker 1: the chemicals that that you know give us satisfaction really

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Speaker 1: depend upon us having a mission, because well we get

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Speaker 1: satisfaction is when we're moving toward our mission mission and

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Speaker 1: moving toward our goals. You've got to be making progress

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Speaker 1: to those goals when you attain certain goals. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I did probably everything I could do in the world

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Speaker 1: of software and then in the world of sun Zoo,

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Speaker 1: and I never had a goal to be a billionaire

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Speaker 1: or anything. I just was interested in these ideas and

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Speaker 1: I didn't have any more goals there. So I wanted,

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Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to get into something new. I

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Speaker 1: always am looking for something new, and the Sunzu stuff,

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Speaker 1: I'm still working on it. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing a new translation I think to to you know,

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Speaker 1: I understand it a lot more today than I did

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago when I did my translation nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: and I'm not quite twenty years ago, but a little

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Speaker 1: more in that. But the do a new translation of

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Speaker 1: that at some point, but I'm not doing all the

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Speaker 1: traveling work that I used to do. How many times

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Speaker 1: do you have to read the book The Art of

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Speaker 1: War before you get it? I don't think reading the

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Speaker 1: book unless you can read Chinese is going to do

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Speaker 1: it for you. I think, what, Yeah, I read, I'd

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Speaker 1: read and only I read probably six or seven translations,

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Speaker 1: and I was kind of confused because they were all different.

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Speaker 1: They're all different. When I was starting, when I was

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Speaker 1: working in business and trying to use these ideas in business,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't really understand it until I started trying

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Speaker 1: to teach other people these ideas. And it was really

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Speaker 1: in teaching that I really kind of came closer to

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Speaker 1: mastering them. But then I taught myself ancient Chinese and

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Speaker 1: started studying the original work. And the original work is

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Speaker 1: kind of magical. It's it's uh chinesecient. Chinese isn't like

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Speaker 1: isn't a spoken language. It's like a conceptual language. It's

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Speaker 1: like it's like mathematical formulas. You know, reading sun Zoo

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Speaker 1: is more like reading eucleph than it is like reading

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Speaker 1: a self help book. And uh, you know, the ideas

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Speaker 1: are so deep that you can almost get lost in there.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're very deep ideas. And you know when

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Speaker 1: you find out over times that these ideas are connected

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Speaker 1: to or we're just discovering today in modern science. You know,

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Speaker 1: this idea of hierarchies and how these hierarchies worked and

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Speaker 1: how how people interact. You know that stuff was all

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Speaker 1: in sun Zoo twenty five years ago. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: new science today about the fire aspects of personality. Will

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Speaker 1: Sundo came very close to describing the same thing twenty

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Speaker 1: five hundred years ago without the computers to figure it

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Speaker 1: all out. So it's kind of an amazing work. You know.

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Speaker 1: The fact is is that when people have a mission.

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Speaker 1: You know, suns you said there were five aspects to

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Speaker 1: define a competitive position. There's your mission, which is your goals.

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Speaker 1: You have to have a goal because the same chemicals

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Speaker 1: that regulate are positive and negative moods are tied to

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Speaker 1: making progress to our goals. You also have to deal

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Speaker 1: with the ground. The ground is what gives you rewards.

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Speaker 1: Our ground that we compete in is human society, and

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Speaker 1: it's other people that can reward us, or fight against

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Speaker 1: us or support us. Then you have the climate. Things

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Speaker 1: are always changing. You were just talking about the new

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Speaker 1: epidemic the coronavirus, you know, and that's something that's changing.

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Speaker 1: And the changes in the climate are unpredictable and uncontrollable.

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Speaker 1: And there's also the things that create new opportunities and

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Speaker 1: new threats that you have to protect yourself from. And

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Speaker 1: then you have your personal capabilities, the skills that you've

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Speaker 1: learned over time, and your basic personality. You know what

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Speaker 1: you're really like, and all those things create your competitive position.

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Speaker 1: And that position is being judged all the time by

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Speaker 1: other people. And you're judging people all the time, and

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Speaker 1: we all hate to be judged. You hate to be judged.

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Speaker 1: I hate to be judged. But the fact is is

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Speaker 1: that's the nature of reality. We're all judging one another.

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Speaker 1: And Sundo's system is all about how we get people

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Speaker 1: to judge us better. And we almost think about our

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Speaker 1: position in competitive strategy. The best way to think about

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Speaker 1: your position is that they're not really judging you, They're

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Speaker 1: just judging what they see of your position. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's judging the things that you're communicating about your position

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Speaker 1: to them, and a lot of it's about you know

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Speaker 1: what your mission is, and you know what kind of

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Speaker 1: character you have and stuff like that, and all that

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Speaker 1: has been trollable. I think of it like an avatar

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Speaker 1: and a computer game. You know, you're trying to win

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Speaker 1: the computer game, and your avatar has certain skills, and

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Speaker 1: you manage your competitive position like you manage an avatar

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Speaker 1: and a computer game. Only you can do that in

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Speaker 1: the real world and you can advance in the real

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Speaker 1: world continually, just like you know avatars can advance in

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Speaker 1: computer games. Does he predict things? Is he very prophetic? Well,

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Speaker 1: only in the sense that he says that things work

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Speaker 1: a certain way. He actually has nine stages. He describes

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Speaker 1: that competitive situations go through and you know how to

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Speaker 1: how to define those situations and how to respond to them.

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Speaker 1: But in those situations tend to follow one after another,

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Speaker 1: and they're too complicated to go into now. But he

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Speaker 1: his system does predict certain things, you know, like companies

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Speaker 1: will grow large and then they'll die because of the

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Speaker 1: accumulation of bureaucracies, things like that. He predicts that there's

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Speaker 1: certain things. You know, people that fight all the time,

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Speaker 1: you know that they're going to expend too many, too

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Speaker 1: much of their resources on fighting all the time, and

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Speaker 1: they're going to get weaker for it. Because we all

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Speaker 1: have unlimited desires, but we only have limited resources. And

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Speaker 1: you have to focus your limited resources on things that

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Speaker 1: you really want and not use them in destructive ways

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Speaker 1: because when you push other people, they're going to push back,

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Speaker 1: and you can expend all your resources doing that instead

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Speaker 1: of improving your position. So he really wasn't a champion

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Speaker 1: of battles. He was a champion of talking your way

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Speaker 1: out of it. Basically, well not. His system is one

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Speaker 1: of positioning. In other words, you try and find positions,

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Speaker 1: and you do this by looking for opportunities. And when

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Speaker 1: an opportunity is is an opening, an what he called

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Speaker 1: unoccupied ground that others will rather support than oppose. And

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Speaker 1: in social context, you know, in the context of our

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Speaker 1: lives today, it means openings are things, are needs that

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Speaker 1: aren't being fulfilled by others, and if you can find

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Speaker 1: a need and fill it with the skills you have,

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Speaker 1: you know others will support you and they won't fight

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Speaker 1: you if you try and go after for example, your

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Speaker 1: boss's position. Why you're going to get all kinds of

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Speaker 1: opposition and rent all kinds of company politics and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. But if you go to your boss and

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Speaker 1: instead of you know, like most people go to their

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Speaker 1: boss and they bring them problems. Oh I need more money,

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Speaker 1: that's a problem. Or this guy's doing this, that's a problem. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: bring a solution, even even better than resolution is is

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Speaker 1: find out what he's looking for, what his goals are,

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Speaker 1: and help him with what he's trying to do. Instead

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Speaker 1: of what you're trying to do, focus on what the

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Speaker 1: people that can improve your life are looking for and

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Speaker 1: what's changing around them. You know, they're having problems dealing

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Speaker 1: with and uh, you know, use your use your ability

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Speaker 1: to satisfy those things. I mean I got into computers.

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Speaker 1: I was in in consumer product sales, but you know,

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Speaker 1: computers came in and you know, salespeople, sales managers had

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Speaker 1: to deal with computer reports and stuff. And I'd learned

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Speaker 1: a little bit about computers and colors. So I began

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Speaker 1: helping my boss with with you know, their their computer

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Speaker 1: reports and stuff like that, understanding them and understanding how

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Speaker 1: they played a role in sales and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, eventually, you know, that got me promoted

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Speaker 1: in my job, It got me better sales territories. But

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Speaker 1: eventually I ended up in computers, and you know, learning

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Speaker 1: about working in the computer industry and starting my own

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Speaker 1: software and that made a world of difference, changed your life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it did that. It was it was a great experience,

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Speaker 1: great time. And also I saw that that was an opening.

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Speaker 1: Once more change is created, was what creates opportunities. That

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Speaker 1: climate is one of the five characteristics of a position,

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Speaker 1: and that new computer technology was just coming out, this

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Speaker 1: as the mini computer, the microcomputer revolution, when the PC

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Speaker 1: was introduced and all that stuff, and it was just

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of openings there. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that needed to be done. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: was able to start a company that addressed one of

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Speaker 1: those issues. And you know, there were lots of companies

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Speaker 1: that did the same thing. But you know, I wasn't

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Speaker 1: trying to be the next you know, I came from

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Speaker 1: consumer products. I wasn't trying to be the next proctering gamble.

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Speaker 1: I was going into a new area where the companies

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Speaker 1: were just being invented. By reading the Art of War.

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Speaker 1: At what point did you get it and really understand it. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm still getting things all the time. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: was just reading it today, the affection on deception and

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Speaker 1: thinking through. You know, as I've gotten old, or I've realized,

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Speaker 1: as you get older, you do learn some things, strangely enough,

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that I've learned is that

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Speaker 1: you know, deception doesn't it doesn't work over time. You know,

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Speaker 1: it always fails. You know everybody gets you know, nobody

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Speaker 1: gets away with anything in life. Everyone. Listen to more

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern,

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