1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spike and welcome back to the 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: so great to have you here back for another episode 7 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: as we, of course break down the Psychology of your twenties, 8 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: Psychology of our twenties, Psychology of my twenties. You guys 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: have no idea how long I've wanted to do this 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: episode for literally this has been on my list I 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: would say three years, and I just never got around 12 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: to it. I don't know why, Probably because I was 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: like waiting for this very moment to do an episode 14 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: on it. We're talking about a really cool concept today, 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: a little known phenomenon cold Peter Pan syndrome. Let me 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: start this episode with a question, have you ever met 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: somebody who just has no desire to grow up, who 18 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: just wants to have fun all the time, seems almost 19 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: like allergic to responsibility or ever getting serious about a 20 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: job or a relationship, who maybe is like obsessed with 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: reliving things you did in high school as kids reliving 22 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: your uni days, despite those times being well and truly done. 23 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: Do you know this person? Have you met somebody like this? 24 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: This is a peter Pan. This is peter Pan syndrome 25 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: to a tea, a pathological fear of growing up. Not 26 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: growing older, that's part of it, but growing up and 27 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: leaving the spontaneity, the fund that is the lack of 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: responsibility behind this is far more common than you may think. 29 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: But because it's kind of hidden behind nostalgia or like 30 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: somebody just trying to figure out their choices, or somebody 31 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: who is enabled by their parents, by their partners, by 32 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: their friends, not a lot of people talk about it. 33 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: What's sad, though, is the damage that peter Pan syndrome 34 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: does not only to the person who is, you know, 35 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: going through it and who suddenly is going to look 36 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: around one day and realize that everybody else grew up 37 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: but them, but also the people around them who so 38 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: deeply want this person to become an adult and show 39 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: some like Gusto for life, that they become more and 40 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: more frustrated from trying and feel more and more kind 41 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: of despondent. So this is what we're going to talk 42 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: about today if you haven't heard about it before, the 43 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: psychology of Peter Pan syndrome, why some people want to 44 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: stay childlike or young forever, the corresponding Wendy syndrome that 45 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: we see a lot in women who date Peter Pans. 46 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: How you can be friends with this person, how you 47 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: can be the partner of this person, the sibling of 48 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: this person, and how much you can actually do for them, 49 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: Like can you force somebody like this to change? There 50 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 1: is a lot to discuss, a lot to break down. 51 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: It's just a fascinating episode in general. So let's get 52 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: into it. So what is Peter Pan syndrome? Where did 53 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: it get its name? Where did it come from? We 54 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: are I think a lot of us not we all, 55 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: A lot of us are familiar with the story of 56 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: Peter Pan. It's like a classic childhood fairy tale, folks story. 57 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: I think maybe you would call it a fairy tale, 58 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: but for some revision. Peter lives on like the mysterious 59 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: far away island of Neverland. He has like this troop 60 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: of like forever children called the Lost Boys. They get 61 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: up to all kinds of adventures. Nothing is very difficult. 62 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: They have like a nemesis, which is Captain Cook, but 63 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: like he's not really a threat, like he doesn't really 64 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: ever do anything to them, and life is just very 65 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: easy and there's no responsibilities, there's none of like the 66 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: drudgery of adult life. It's all very fun. They having 67 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: these adventures, and it seemingly the fantasy of many, many 68 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: people never having to grow up and face chores and 69 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: work and complex relationships, getting to be young forever. This 70 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: is the very famous story from which Peter Pan syndrome emerged. 71 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: Peter Pann. The syndrome was first coined in the eighties. 72 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: Biopsychologists called doctor Dan Kylie in his book the Peter 73 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: Pan Syndrome men who have never grown up, And he 74 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: came up with the term because he kept encountering a 75 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: lot of men, a lot of like older teenage boys, 76 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: but mainly men who kept having all these problems with 77 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: adjusting to the real world. They really struggled getting girlfriends 78 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: or partners, they had trouble with their job, and he 79 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: really believed that a lot of this derived from their 80 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: fear of growing up and of being responsible. It's not 81 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: an official psychological diagnosis, but the term Peter Pan syndrome 82 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: gained so much popularity after his book was first published 83 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: because it was kind of the first time that anybody 84 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: had dissected this particular set of behaviors and patterns. And 85 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people saw their partners, saw their sons, 86 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: saw themselves painfully in that description. And I think on 87 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: some level we all can kind of relate. None of 88 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: us particularly enjoy paying bills, none of us particularly enjoy 89 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: doing chores. Let's be real, sometimes adulthood feels like just 90 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: doing the same things over and over again to stay alive, 91 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: a lot of things that aren't a lot of fun. 92 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: But here's the distinction. Those with Peter Penn's syndrome often 93 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: exhibit those same tendencies and behaviors and annoyances with adulthood 94 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: on a path of life level. They cannot commit to 95 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: a relationship, but they also really have no desire to work, 96 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: and they also just want to have fun all the time. 97 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: And they also seem pained by the idea of doing chores, 98 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: keeping a schedule, getting a driver's license, that sort of thing. 99 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: People with the same syndrome can seem quite helpless as well. 100 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: Those around them might have the general impression that this 101 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: person just can't get it all together, and, as we said, 102 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: brings a lot of frustration. They might be prone to 103 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: emotional outbursts when they are asked to do things that 104 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: a normal adult would do, or when they face stressful situations. 105 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: They make a lot of excuses. They blame others for 106 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: why it went wrong, why they can't do it. They 107 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: find criticism difficult, they find people saying no difficult. More broadly, 108 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: they just have no desire or interest in personal growth 109 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: or making solid long term plants. They want to keep 110 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: their options open, they want to have fun, they want 111 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: to be spontaneous, and they can also really rely on 112 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: a lot of self destructive behaviors, you know, engaging in 113 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: things like substance abuse, addictive patterns, all with the goal 114 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: of escaping from and suppressing the difficult feelings that come 115 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: with growing up. They want to avoid that as much 116 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: as possible through whatever means. It can happen in women, 117 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: but there's a lot less accounts. I think there's very 118 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: few accounts of it happening, probably because of how women 119 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: are socialized to take on responsibility from a young age 120 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: in the home, in classrooms, in social groups. So why 121 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: does this actually develop in a lot of not a lot, 122 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: but why does it end up developing in young guys 123 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: and in men. Firstly, we need to examine the role 124 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: of the parent. I feel like parents kind of get 125 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: blamed for everything, but this is a case where it 126 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: might be a little bit fair, even if their intentions 127 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: were pure. A lot of it does begin with how, 128 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: and I will say men and women, how, particularly a 129 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: young guy was raised. There's this woman, Humberlina robuls or Taker. 130 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: She is a professor at the University of Granada, and 131 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: she's an expert on this. She's an expert on emotional disorders, 132 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: on parenting, and she basically claims that overprotective parents are 133 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: a massive contributor. They think they're protecting their child by 134 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: limiting their independence, by always driving them everywhere, by helping 135 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: them with their homework, cooking all their meals, choosing their major, 136 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: not letting them get a job, but it can leave 137 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: their children ill equipped to deal with adult life. Again, 138 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: they think they're doing what's best, but the child never 139 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: gets the necessary skills to confront things that we all 140 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: kind of have to go through as an adult, including 141 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: painful things like heartbreak and scary situations and discomfort. There's 142 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: one longitudinal study from twenty twenty three that examined the 143 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: impact of having overprotective parents in thousands of children in 144 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: the Netherlands, and children who had these kinds of parents 145 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: were more antisocial, They had lower levels of academic achievement 146 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: poorer coping strategies, even when the parents themselves didn't think 147 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: that they were being overprotective. Now, as an adult, if 148 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: you have grown up in that environment, you've never adjusted, 149 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: so they still may feel or feel the need to 150 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: be physically and financially taken care of by their parents. 151 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: They don't. They kind of take the system for granted. 152 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: And you know what, if it was me, I would 153 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: probably do that, Like I wish my parents paid all 154 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: my bills. I wish they took care of everything. Of course, 155 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: somebody who's always had this handed to them is going 156 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: to continue that way because not doing it is so painful, 157 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: But it doesn't exactly set them up well. Now, there's 158 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: a difference between an overprotective parent like the ones we 159 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: spoke about and a permissive parent, and permissive parents may 160 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: be even worse. Overprotect parents will still say no if 161 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: it's in their child's best interest. Permissive parents won't Peter 162 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 1: pant syndrome can emerge because of permissive parenting because children, 163 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: or this child has zero boundaries, zero restrictions on their behavior, 164 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: zero punishments for following impulses that lead to poor decisions. 165 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: Everything is done in permissive parenting to keep the child happy. Now, 166 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: this happens for a few reasons. The parent themselves may 167 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: have had like just a really harsh upbringing, so they 168 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: go too far in the opposite direction, kind of as 169 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: of a form of like it's a form of overcorrection. 170 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: They may also just struggle with conflict and feeling guilty 171 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: in their own relationships, including their relationship with their child, 172 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: even though they obviously have authority and they should do 173 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: what's best. Like the child can be unhappy. It doesn't matter. 174 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: If it means they're safe and learning, that's a good thing, 175 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: But they want to be loved. They want to be 176 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: seen as a nice or a good parent. That's what 177 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: causes this. And sometimes formissive parenting can just be straight 178 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: up neglect, like there's no boundaries because the parent doesn't 179 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: care enough to set them. There is an entire Reddit 180 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: thread about people's experiences with permissive parenting, and it goes 181 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: into so much detail in the ways that this experience, 182 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: whilst probably a lot of fun in childhood, can really 183 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: mess you up as an adult because you don't learn rules, 184 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 1: you don't learn what it means to be told no, 185 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: and if you only ever experience that as an adult, 186 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: it's going to be really annoying and it's going to 187 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: seem really unfair. Moreover, permissive parents often not the neglectful 188 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: kind but I want you to love me all the 189 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: time kind. They often take the blame for their children's wrongdoings, 190 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: meeting their child never learns that actions have consequences, which 191 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: is another important feature of growing up. I had a 192 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: friend like this in school whose mom would just swoop 193 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: in with an excuse for any wrongdoing and who was 194 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: kind of like a Mama Bear figure, which power to her. 195 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: But she didn't do her daughter any favors because her 196 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: daughter just got her way with everything, and therefore learned 197 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: that she could do anything. I want to say, Like, 198 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm not a parent, I can't judge, and I can 199 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: imagine it must be really really hard to figure out 200 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: what the right thing is for your child, especially if 201 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: you had a really difficult upbringing. But these behaviors are 202 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: they're just frankly a big contributor to Peter Pan syndrome 203 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: as we see it in the research. Now. Another contributor 204 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: beyond parenting and that kind of relationship is fears about 205 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: one's own competence. Even somebody who had the most perfectly 206 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: balanced and supportive parents who also set boundaries may still 207 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: develop Peter Pant syndrome because they are subconsciously unconsciously afraid 208 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: that they are not very good at being an adult 209 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: and that they will fail. Being just a person who 210 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: is alive nowadays comes with a lot of expectation right comparison, 211 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: and life is just really hard. Like it's harder to 212 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: get a job, it's harder to be paid well, it's 213 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: harder to be seen as competent, harder to make a mark, 214 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: harder to dream big, harder to do all the things 215 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: that our parents did at our age. And sometimes the 216 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: psychological solution to that when we feel like that failure 217 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: is all us is avoidance. You know, if I never try, 218 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: I didn't fail because I wasn't capable. I failed because 219 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to. Failing was my decision because I chose 220 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: not to give it a go. That's kind of the 221 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: situation that they end up in. I'm not going to 222 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: be a bad adult if I never force myself to 223 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: act like an adult. A lot of people with Peter 224 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: Penn syndrome are deeply insecure. They're anxious, they're perfectionists, and 225 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: they're kind of just scared that they won't be able 226 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: to adapt or be the person that they want to be. 227 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: So they mask it with this more socially acceptable facade 228 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: of like, I'm just living in the moment, I'm just 229 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: enjoying my youth, I'm just having fun, when really what's 230 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: going on is like a deep exercise fear of not 231 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: feeling capable. Of course, speaking of existential fears, the fear 232 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: of growing up is also deeply correlated to the fear 233 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: of aging. And I feel like a lot of us 234 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: can relate to the birthday panic. Like when we were kids, 235 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: we were so excited to get older, and then now 236 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: it's like every birthday just feels like you're closer to dying, 237 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: and that's not a great feeling. It's easy to see 238 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: why creating a psychological fantasy land of eternal youth is attractive, 239 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: after all, like society is very obsessed with the youthfulness 240 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: and young bodies and capable young bodies, and the attractiveness 241 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: of being young. When somebody lives in a fantasy land 242 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: where they never have to grow up, they feel safe 243 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: from what aging means. They feel safe in the delusion 244 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: of being youthful, energetic, care free, and if they can't 245 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: actually freeze themselves at an age, can and freeze their 246 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: behavior at an age. Research from the nineteen eighties, which 247 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: analyzed like i think, twelve hundred retired adults in the US, 248 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: found that this fear of aging is really just the 249 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: fear of the unknown. When someone has peter Pan syndrome, 250 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: they are gravitating towards the known. Being a child who 251 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: doesn't have to assume any responsibility, for whom life is 252 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: always explained and taken care of for them. That is 253 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: a known, and that is not as frightening as the 254 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: unknowns of adulthood and the unknowns of getting older that 255 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: we're facing right now. To clarify, I will say, this 256 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: doesn't mean like you can't be playful and young and 257 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: joyful like. You are still allowed to even be childlike 258 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: at some point and like to be a little bit silly. 259 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: You know me, You guys have probably listened to episodes 260 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: where I've just gone on and on about the importance 261 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: of play psychologically and mentally and emotionally. So we're not 262 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: just like throwing all that out and sane grow up 263 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: or else. However, when this bleeds into pathological childlike behaviors 264 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: and irresponsibility, that is peter Pan syndrome. That is not 265 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: just having fun and being light and joyful about life. 266 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: This is somebody who is paralyzed by the idea of 267 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: growing up, and that has consequences for dating, for friendship, 268 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: for their financial situation, for their career, which we are 269 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: going to discuss after this shortbreak, as well as how 270 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: to deal with somebody like this. Stay with us. You 271 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: know what's sad. What I think is sad is when 272 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: somebody has peter Pan syndrome, Like obviously they get a 273 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: really bad rap, but they miss out on the full 274 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: range of emotions and experiences that life has to offer 275 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: as we get older, like the richness of growing up. 276 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: By remaining in like this childlike emotional and behavioral state, 277 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: the peter Pans of the world world miss out on, 278 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: like the immense satisfaction that comes with knowing you can 279 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: rely on yourself and knowing that you built this, you 280 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: made this, you're responsible for the success in your life. 281 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: They also miss out on the feeling of knowing that 282 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: others can depend on them and that they can show 283 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: up emotionally, physically, maybe even financially for their friends. Think 284 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: of it this way, like, when you're experiencing a crisis, 285 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: you're not going to call your Peter Pan friend. You're 286 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: not going to call your friend who has no sense 287 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: of adult responsibility. That's unfortunate for you because you miss 288 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: out on another support network. Right, it's also responsible a 289 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: bit for the Peter because I think it's a true privilege. 290 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: It's like it is, it's a privilege, it's a joy, 291 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: it's a gift getting to support others and getting to 292 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: help people through hard things and have that mutual sense 293 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: of help and love and connection. It can be really 294 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: frustrating to be around these people because you're moving forward, 295 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: you've got ambitions, you've got plans, and they're staying still 296 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: like they're not keeping up with the progress of life. 297 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: Perhaps whilst you were listening to this, you probably thought 298 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: of somebody, Right, if you've made it this far, you've 299 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: got somebody in mind who fits the criteria for a Peter, 300 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: I would assume a sibling, a romantic partner, a friend, 301 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: a colleague, maybe somebody you just met in passing and 302 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: being around them is hard. It's just hard. I had 303 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: a roommate like this, and I actually ran into him recently, 304 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: like last week, and five years on he hasn't changed. 305 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: And I remember hearing this term for the first time 306 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: when we were living together and being like, bingo, like 307 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: that is him. That describes his behavior to a ty 308 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: And seeing him five years later and being like, oh 309 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: my god, you're still the same was like quite shocking. 310 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: Perhaps the reason I wanted to do this episode. And 311 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: the thing is, it's very easy to be resentful of Peter's, 312 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: especially if you're close to them, because they fail to 313 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: assume responsibility for their actions. And that's hard. That's it's 314 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: hard to be around somebody who like can't do simple 315 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: things like take the bins out or wash the dishes, 316 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: or show up on time or commit And it can 317 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: be really pronounced if this person is a sibling and 318 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: you see how they've been treated differently because of their behaviors, 319 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: or maybe even in ways that contribute to their behaviors, 320 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: like a really common example, and something I'm sure many 321 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: of you can relate to, is like having a brother, 322 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: you being a woman, you being a sister, and having 323 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: a brother, and you can see how much is not 324 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: asked of them and how much is asked of you, 325 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: like you have to have it all together. They get 326 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: away with murder, and there's always an excuse as to 327 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: why they can't step up, why they can't assume responsibilities 328 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: for the things that you as a sister do, or 329 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: maybe you as a brother, or just like anybody, like 330 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: you have to grow up and they don't. And study 331 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: after study shows that this dynamic in particular is like 332 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: a recipe for a resentment because and it's resentment for 333 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: literally everybody involved, right because the sibling resents the other sibling, 334 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: who resents the parents, who resents that sibling, who resents 335 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: their parents, and like it's just this triangular motion where 336 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: like everybody feels like they're hard done by and nobody 337 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: wants to take responsibility, and nobody will, particularly the Peter 338 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: doesn't want to change. It's also hard because in those situations, 339 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: if you are the sibling, you probably want to be like, 340 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: can't you see how this has hurt me? And how 341 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: this has influenced me as an individual, and like they're 342 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: probably not going to listen because there's a lot of 343 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: ego involved in recognizing that you are somebody who has 344 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,239 Speaker 1: peter Pan syndrome, or as a parent, recognizing that you 345 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: are somebody who's contributed. So I think siblings of Peter's 346 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: get a hard rap because they just kind of have 347 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: to stay silent and except that you know they're never 348 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: going to be and never have been treated the same way. 349 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: Trying to help somebody with peter Pan syndrome get moving 350 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: or reach the level that you think they're capable of 351 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: can also make you feel like a nag, and it 352 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: can make them feel really like patronized, and it becomes 353 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: highly personal very quickly. It's not a happy situation for anyone. 354 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: Definitely hard when they're a family member, very complex when 355 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: there's somebody you're dating. Whole different story dating naturally. You 356 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: guys know this, Like I don't sound like I'm like 357 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: man spending this even though I'm a woman, but you 358 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like I don't want to sound 359 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: like but you know, it's it involves balance, Like, yeah, 360 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: you've got to accept your partner's quirks and idiosyncrasies, and 361 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: you want to encourage each other to be the best 362 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: version of themselves, but you also want to be able 363 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: to rely on them. And if you have this recurrent 364 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: feeling that your partner just like can't seem to grow up, 365 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: or a general feeling that they probably couldn't handle life 366 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: on their own, that can really leave you questioning, like, 367 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: is this relationship worth it? In a relationship setting, like 368 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: you probably notice it more. They neglect their personal hygiene, 369 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: they avoid any kind of chore, They don't really do 370 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: anything around the house, They don't really do anything for 371 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: their life. You might constantly be like, come on, don't 372 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: you have ambitions? Don't you want to do things? They 373 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: might let you plan everything, they let you make big decisions. 374 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: They also generally just like don't want to maybe go 375 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: that extra mile in terms of being more committed moving 376 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: in with each other or getting engaged or thinking about 377 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: the future. And that takes its toll. But we know 378 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: about the labor load, where the person who does more 379 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: tools around the house often feels more exhausted and resentful, 380 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: But the mental load of just having to think about 381 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: what needs to get done has the same effect. And 382 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: the mental load is probably a lot more significant if 383 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: you are the partner of somebody who is a Peter 384 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: in the long term, right, It's hard to be with 385 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: somebody when every time you bring up a plan for 386 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: the future, like there's nothing. It's hard to imagine a 387 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: future with somebody who can't even take care of themselves. 388 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: Like imagine having kids with a Peter. Imagine trying to 389 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: get a home loan. Imagine when things get really tough, 390 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: like will they bolt because they can't cope with people 391 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: relying on them? Will they just go and hang out 392 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: with their buddies? And how do you know that by 393 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: being patient you're not just enabling them, especially if they 394 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: do have other things going on, like they might have ADHD, 395 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: they might have been through a really tough childhood, they 396 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: might just be overwhelmed, like it's a hard frickin line 397 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: to walk. This is where we need to talk about 398 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: Wendy's syndrome, which is the companion to Peter Pan syndrome. 399 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: Peter Pan syndrome. Again, normally, a man doesn't want to 400 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: grow up. He wants to be a boy forever, constantly 401 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: reliving the glory days of his teenage years where he 402 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: had fun and he never had to be an adult 403 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: and there was no responsibility. Wendy, named after Wendy Darling, 404 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: He was another character in Peter Pan. Wendy syndrome describes 405 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: the woman or the women who enable those men who 406 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: enable their boyfriends, sons friends to be that way without 407 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: even realizing it. A Wendy is empathetic. She is nurturing. 408 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: She picks up after Peter. She makes excuses for Peter. 409 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: She often takes on a motherly role with Peter. She's 410 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: trying her best to protect her Peter because she thinks, 411 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: much like the parent, that she is helping him. It's 412 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: not helping, it's giving them in this dependent state where 413 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: oftentimes they've just found somebody to replace their mother, and 414 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,719 Speaker 1: they get the benefit of a romantic partner. There's no 415 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: incentive to change there. They get the best of both worlds. 416 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: The thing is a study from the University of Grenada 417 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: in Spain from two thousand and seven found that Peter 418 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: Pan's Peter Pan types tend to gravitate towards the Wendy 419 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: archetype and vice versa. Because you know, Peter's are often 420 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: charismatic in they're chaos, they're often quite enjoyable to be around, 421 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: and Wendy often really wants to be in service to 422 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: somebody else. So at first it's like this perfect match 423 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 1: made in heaven because each person feels like they're getting something. 424 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: But over time, Wendy just makes it easier for Peter 425 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: to never grow up, even as she believes she is 426 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: helping him to grow up, and this eventually becomes exhausting. 427 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: Like the person with Wendy syndrome will eventually realize that 428 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: Peter isn't gonna change, and they begin to feel taken 429 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: advantage of, even though like the behaviors have probably been 430 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: the same from the beginning. The person with Peter pan 431 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: syndrome also we can't forget them. They also start to 432 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: feel like, why am I being lectured? Why am I 433 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: being dominated? Why am I being forced to do things 434 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: I don't want to do? Why is this person so demanding? 435 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: And so this is often how this relationship ends. Wendy 436 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: burns out, Peter sulks, and the relationship ultimately fails. But 437 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: for the Peter, the cycle continues with somebody else. Again. Remember, 438 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: this is somebody who doesn't want to be an adult, 439 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,719 Speaker 1: so who doesn't want the responsibility of a committed relationship, 440 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: so it's very easy for them to jump into another 441 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: noncommittal relationship which is very fun and freeing and teenage like. 442 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: And it's very likely that that person they jump into 443 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: the next relationship with will probably be very much like 444 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: the same Wendy character they found themselves with before. So 445 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 1: if this sounds eerily like your situation as a sibling, 446 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: as a friend, as a partner, do you correct the behavior? 447 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: What do you do? It's a hard question, but I 448 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: don't think it's your job to fix somebody with peter 449 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: Pan syndrome, particularly if you recognize the traits of Wendy's 450 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,479 Speaker 1: syndrome in yourself, either as a partner or a friend 451 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: or somebody else, because you will just find yourself most 452 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: likely in this situation of differing interests, differing desires, differing goals, 453 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: and sadness. You also cannot shame somebody into changing, because 454 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: that builds. We know this resentment long term. It's just 455 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: a really sad reality we see time and time again 456 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: in like human behavior. But people do not change for others. 457 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: They change for themselves. This is like the classic theory 458 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: of intrinsic motivation, the strongest form of motivation is what 459 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: comes from within. External motivation, somebody else telling you to 460 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: do something, somebody else telling you to change just cannot 461 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: be sustained. No matter what people say like this, it's 462 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: just so, it doesn't work. So what do you do? Well, 463 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: you have to stop doing the things that have made 464 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: their behavior and patterns easy for them. You stop taking 465 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: over the responsibilities, you stop doing the adult things for them, 466 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: and maybe you remove yourself and show them like, hey, 467 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: if you want an adult relationship or an adult friendship 468 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: or a roommate relationship, even we both need to be 469 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: displaying adult behaviors and you're not. You have to make 470 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: the option of being a Peter difficult for them. I remember, 471 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: and this is gonna sound so cooked, but when I 472 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 1: had that roommate who was definitely a Peter, bless his soul, 473 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: but also bless us for dealing with him, he wouldn't 474 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: wash any of his plates, dishes, cubs, anything, And so 475 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: it got to a point where they were like they 476 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: had molded them. And so anytime I needed to use one, 477 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: I would wash it, I would use it, I would 478 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: wash it again, and I would store it in a 479 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: box in my room so that only I could use 480 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: it until he literally ran out of clean stuff to 481 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: drink from and he had to sheepelessly be like, hey, 482 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: where are all our plates and cups? Was it mature? 483 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: Probably not? But did it remove the ease at which 484 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: he could literally like live like a pig and like 485 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: remain childlike and dependent on us his female roommates like 486 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: we were his mother? Yes, and like his behavior did change. 487 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: It felt weird, but it was kind of like, what 488 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: else do we have to do it? We can't just 489 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: scold him. The only way to help a Peter is 490 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: to make them want to help or change themselves, or 491 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: to leave them to see out their prior decision of 492 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: remaining childlike and let them see the consequence of that. 493 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: You can't show the consequence only through words. It needs 494 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: to be through change or actions. Now. Obviously, if their 495 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,959 Speaker 1: fear of growing up is derived from anxiety around aging, 496 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: not being good enough, feeling like a failure, encourage them, 497 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: show them support, talk them through what they see is 498 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: the worst case scenario and the other possible outcomes, like 499 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: let's not conflate like depression or a real mental health 500 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: struggle with being a Peter, like some people are struggling 501 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: with responsibilities because they're in a really tough and dark 502 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: and hard place, hence why they struggle to leave the house, 503 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: hence why they feel no sense of ambition or ability 504 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: to be a committed partner or to show up. But 505 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,719 Speaker 1: the biggest way to differentiate that, like is this person 506 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: seriously depressed or are they a Peter, is that Peter 507 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: are otherwise quite active in ways that suit them, just 508 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: not in ways that would force them to grow up. 509 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: Like they have no issue going out with friends, no 510 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: issue working on like say they're physeke, no issue holidaying 511 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. They don't seem bothered or even 512 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: sad by their lack of progress. They don't seem despondent. 513 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: They would be happy to continue the way they are. 514 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: This is what they've chosen. They want to be in 515 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: this state. Depress people obviously don't want to continue the 516 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: way they are. They don't seem to be enjoying themselves, 517 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: which sounds like the most obvious statement in the world, 518 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: But like, I think it's important to clarify that there 519 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: is a distinction that like, there is somebody who is 520 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: depressed and there's somebody who is a Peter. Let's not 521 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: get them confused. Also, somebody who is young and like 522 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: financially insecure and a little bit directionless is also again 523 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: not necessarily somebody with Peter Pant syndrome. Somebody with Peter 524 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: Pant syndrome wants to remain where they are. They have 525 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: an aversion to growing up. Somebody who's just like young 526 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: and figuring things out would take the opportunity to change 527 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: if it was presented to them. The Peter wouldn't. So 528 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: let's finish up with this. Do people ever grow out 529 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: of this? Like? Is their hope for these individuals? The 530 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: answer is yes, they do. People do grow out of this. 531 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: There's been studies that show there's often a social turning 532 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: point for the people who do change, especially around when 533 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: their friends, like all the people they know, start getting married, 534 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,479 Speaker 1: start having families of their own, and their social circle 535 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: kind of shrinks, and it means that the other side 536 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: of things start to seem more desirable. Whether that happens 537 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: at twenty seven or thirty five or forty, who knows. 538 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: But there's been additional work showing that when people realize 539 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: that adult responsibility is also at times very rewarding, they 540 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: also change, especially when they feel like they can continue 541 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: to have their fun, their joy, their childlike nature alongside 542 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: this new way of living, Like I think, sure, cleaning 543 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: your house every day is really annoying, but it's also 544 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: really cool that you get to live alone, or that 545 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: you get to keep your space exactly how you want it. 546 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: Independence is pretty cool. Like having your job is most 547 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: of the time sometimes very frustrating, but so as being 548 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: able to afford during travel items that you want. Getting 549 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: to save and meet your goals is also really rewarding. 550 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: Getting older doesn't just mean losing parts of yourself, it 551 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: also means gaining access to new parts of yourself and 552 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,719 Speaker 1: new versions of yourself. So it's kind of like at 553 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,479 Speaker 1: some point the pro cons list shifts to the cons 554 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: pros list, like something flips for them, and alongside that, 555 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: I think as well, at some point again they realize 556 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: you can still have fun and be an adult. We 557 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: had a whole episode on this the other day, the 558 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: psychology of whimsy Like that is a big realization I 559 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: think for a lot of peters. But as the saying 560 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: goes like they have to realize that themselves. You can 561 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: take horse to water, you can't make it drink. Somebody 562 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: you love like if they don't want to change, if 563 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: they don't want to grow up, nothing you can do 564 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: is going to make them. There's no forcing them, there's 565 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,719 Speaker 1: no arguing with it. Sometimes it's just about they have 566 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: to see all the things that they're also losing by 567 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: staying the same. They think that they're going to lose 568 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: so much by growing up. They think that that's where 569 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: all the loss comes from. At some point, I think 570 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: people with Peter Pan syndrome realize all that they lose 571 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: by choosing not to grow up. And as we said, 572 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: there's often a social turning point. There's also, I think 573 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: an emotional turning point when they realize that their capacity 574 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: and their ability to connect with others there's a ceiling 575 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: to it unless they take on some responsibility. And as 576 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: the quality of their relationships get worse, and if there's 577 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: somebody who is self aware enough to see that they're 578 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: getting worse, things will hopefully kind of start to change. Hopefully. 579 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: So there you go. That is our episode on Peter 580 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: Pant syndrome. I had so much fun researching this and 581 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: looking into this. It is honestly, so deeply, deeply fascinating, 582 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: especially Wendy's syndrome. So if you have made it this 583 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: far and you were listening on Spotify, leave a little 584 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 1: fairy emoji down below to represent tinkerbill and so I 585 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: know that you have listened to the very end. If 586 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: you know somebody who was a Peter, feel free to 587 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: DM me tell me a little bit more, see if 588 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: it matches up with the description. I feel like this 589 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: is such an interesting concept and idea of people that's 590 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: going to become a lot more popularized as we see 591 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: more like manosphere of content and we see more increasing 592 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: difficulties around like getting employment and like getting your job, 593 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: and like shifting gender roles. I just feel like it's 594 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: going to become a much bigger part of like our 595 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: social conversation. So yeah, I'm glad we could do like 596 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 1: a full episode of it after waiting all these years. 597 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: Thank you as always to our researcher Lucy Davidson who 598 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: helped with this episode. She did so much fantastic research 599 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: and did some really great deep diving that allowed us 600 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: to make this episode what it was. What's the other 601 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 1: thing is we need to say Instagram, Substack, Netflix, all 602 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: those things in the description if you want to check 603 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: them out, you can also share this episode with a friend, 604 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: maybe somebody who you share a mutual Peter with, if 605 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: you think that they would enjoy it, learn from it, 606 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: laugh at it. Maybe maybe not. But until next time, 607 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: be safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself. We will 608 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 1: talk very very soon.