1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen on 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tuesday edition of Bloomberg Sound On. I'm 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: Joe Matthew in Washington, where it's all about Ukraine today. 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 2: That's certainly the storyline so far, and that's going to 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: continue to develop as President Zelenski, as we told you 9 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: in person today in the nation's Capital, will make his 10 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 2: way from the Capital to the other end of Pennsylvania 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: Avenue and a bilateral meeting followed by a news conference 12 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: with Joe Biden. 13 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 3: We will get there. That's a few hours off. 14 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: In fact, we'll carry it live when these two get 15 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: in front of reporters later on today. So far it's 16 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: about Congress, though in a very skeptical Republican conference in 17 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: the House as opposed to the one in the Senate. 18 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: Remember Mitch mcconoch, Chuck Schumer invited President Zelensky here to 19 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: make the case today and all Senators briefing and then 20 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: the one on one with Speaker Mike Johnson who just 21 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: stood in front of the microphones to talk to reporters 22 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: coming out of that meeting, knowing that he has been 23 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 2: skeptical that he is not looking to send a blank 24 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 2: check to Ukraine and in fact is pursuing this deal 25 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: on border security that is also being pursued in the 26 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: Senate that would somehow unlock Ukraine funding. That was not, however, 27 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 2: the first condition that he rolled out when Republicans are 28 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 2: when reporters rather asked him about his wariness of sending 29 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: more money to Ukraine. Here's Speaker Mike Johnson. 30 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 4: I have asked the White House since the day that 31 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 4: I was handed the gavel as Speaker for clarity. We 32 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 4: need a clear articulation of the strategy to allow Ukraine 33 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 4: to win, and thus far their responses have been insufficient. 34 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 4: They have not provided us the clarity and the detail 35 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 4: that we requested over and over since literally twenty four 36 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 4: hours after I was handed the gavel as Speaker of 37 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 4: the House. And so what the Biden administration seems to 38 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 4: be asking for is billions of additional dollars with no 39 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 4: appropriate oversight, no clear strategy to win, and none of 40 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 4: the answers that I think the American people are owed. 41 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: Then I guess there's the border now. To be fair, 42 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: Speaker Johnson has been making that case and asking those questions. 43 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: But we thought that this money would be unlocked with 44 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,119 Speaker 2: or without conditions for Ukraine, with or without a strategy 45 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: to win, as he says, if there was a deal 46 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 2: on the border. And that's where we start our conversation 47 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: with Congressman Jonathan Jackson, the Democrat from Illinois, First Great 48 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 2: City of Chicago. Congressman, it's good to see on Bloomberg. 49 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: We welcome you from your perch on the Foreign Affairs Committee. 50 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: I wonder your thoughts today on what you heard from 51 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 2: Speaker Johnson. Will Ukraine ever get this money? 52 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 5: Well, I certainly hope so, but I would also like 53 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 5: to for this money to go through the normal process. 54 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 5: There's a check and balance in place, and we've been 55 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 5: duly elected our constituents to be here to be a 56 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 5: part of that balance. This is part of our congressional responsibility. 57 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 5: By going around our Congress and bypassing money to go 58 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 5: to Israel or to not let us have a robust 59 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 5: debate about Ukraine. What does peace look like? How you 60 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 5: measure it? Can we have equal parts diplomacy as well 61 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 5: as defense. Can we all get to the table. Imagine 62 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 5: that's like a growing frustration. And then there are limits. 63 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 5: We have course thirty three trillion dollars and national debt. 64 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 5: We have two trillion dollars and a growing deficit, and 65 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 5: we have some serious needs at home. So I think 66 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 5: the high mark of America being able to write blank 67 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 5: checks may be behind us at this moment. And so 68 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 5: we have to be very much responsive to our constituents 69 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 5: at home. We have issues and water systems and housing. 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 5: We just can't have it one way for all military 71 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 5: and not understanding the strength of our diplomacy, and where 72 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 5: does this end? How do we achieve peace and how 73 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 5: do we achieve compromise? That should also be on the table. 74 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: Have you heard from the White House on this, Congressman, 75 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: because Joe Biden's obviously making the case here for our 76 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: own national security and in fact was the one who 77 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: injected the border debate into this funding request that came 78 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: from the White House for Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan. We're 79 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: going to, of course, see a news conference later with 80 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 2: Joe Biden and President Zelenski. Is there any answer he 81 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: could give you that would satisfy you in terms of strategy, 82 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: knowing that, well, we don't know if Ukraine can beat Russia, 83 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: do we. 84 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 5: Well, I think this is where the issue is. I mean, 85 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 5: we have to go back to the original. What was 86 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 5: Russia's initials concern I would say that they were wrong 87 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 5: to cross over the border and going to Ukraine, But 88 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 5: when they were talking about the Dombaas region and going 89 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 5: to the eastern part, they said they have stopped teaching 90 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 5: the Russian language and in a region that did speak Russian. 91 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 5: They were also saying that they have a, if you will, 92 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 5: a bomb phobia. They did not want to see missiles 93 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 5: at their front door. They did not want to see 94 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 5: Ukraine joining NATO. And if we go back to recent 95 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 5: history and World War Two, we know that twenty two 96 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 5: million Russians were killed and they were like, stop expanding NATO. 97 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 5: NATO has continually been expanding and going into eastern Europe, 98 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,799 Speaker 5: and now when it got to Russia's doorstep, they said enough. 99 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 5: So I'd like for us to take a pause, go 100 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 5: back and revisit this and find out where they are borders. 101 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 5: These borders now are less than thirty years old. They 102 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 5: are border disputes that we can see. They're going on 103 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,799 Speaker 5: all around the world, it seems like at the same time, 104 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 5: and I do think that it's time for us to talk. 105 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 5: I mean I have constantly been, if you will, a 106 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 5: little bit dismayed to think that we're quick to jump 107 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 5: into military action without exhausting all of our opportunities to 108 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 5: have diplomacy. I'm for a strong defense with an equal 109 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 5: part of diplomacy, with an equal part of development. I 110 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 5: like to do a trifecta diplomacy, development and defense, not 111 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 5: so quick to have an endless amount of war. Now 112 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 5: we're over one hundred big and dollars into the Ukraine. 113 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 5: This is another sixty four bigon dollar package. They thought 114 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 5: this would be a one month issue. I thought this 115 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 5: was going possibly for six months. And like Russia is 116 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 5: now their economy is getting stronger as a result of 117 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 5: the strength as result of the sanctions, they're increasing their 118 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 5: ties with Iran, they increased their ties with like China. 119 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 5: So I want to see America's playing field get bigger 120 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 5: and not smaller. The more people we cut off from 121 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 5: our foreign policy, the stronger we're making our adversaries. 122 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: Well, you just said a lot of congressmen I'd love 123 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: to unpack some of that because I realized these are 124 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: recently drawn borders, but they are all so agreed to 125 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: by Russia. Should the US not have come to the 126 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: defense of Ukraine to begin with because of that reason 127 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: and the fact that we have not put any American 128 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: boots on the ground or in harm's way is something 129 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: that the Biden administration has been trumping. Made a huge 130 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: dent in the Russian military by way of this proxy war, 131 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: if we. 132 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: Can call it that. 133 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: Are there no benefits to US national security? 134 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 5: There? Oh? Absolutely there is. We have to stop aggression 135 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 5: at all levels. We have to. I think US defending 136 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 5: Ukraine was the right thing to do, and now I 137 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 5: think it's time to revisit it. This is a very 138 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 5: substantial army, they have an enormous amount of resources, and 139 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 5: we have to measure are we going to scale back 140 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 5: what we would consider not to be our ideal desire 141 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 5: for Ukraine to have recaptured all the land, versus when 142 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 5: do we start saving lives and preserving what we have. 143 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 5: There comes a point where there is a law of 144 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 5: diminishing returns on how many more bombs for how many 145 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 5: more inches of land? Ukraine and Belarus, that entire region 146 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 5: is very important to the world as a bread basket. 147 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 5: In the meantime, there's other unintended consequences. There are other 148 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 5: countries that suffer. So I'm trying not to look at 149 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 5: this through a keyhole, but through the door that we 150 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 5: saw a spike in worldwide food prices, and my ultimate 151 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 5: goal is to get back to peace. I don't want 152 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 5: to bomb my way into a solution that I don't 153 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 5: see a very good an well. 154 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: I would suggest that there's a diplomatic solution possible. Do 155 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: you believe that Vladimir Putin is capable of such a thing. 156 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 5: I think everyone is. And I'm a first term freshman congressman. 157 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 5: Call me naive if you will, I'm fine with that. 158 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 5: But I do believe in continuously being a peacemaker, continually 159 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 5: trying to exhaust peaceful means. I'm sure that the body 160 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 5: count it's going up in Russia, it's substantial. The body 161 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 5: count that's gone up in Ukraine is substantial and exhausting. 162 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 5: The people that have fled the country has been enormous. 163 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 5: The land can get now contaminated with the amount of bombs, 164 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 5: so it has reached a point of what's left and 165 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 5: how do we move forward? So at what point do 166 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 5: we have any sort of pause, if you will, any 167 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 5: sort of truce and try to get back to the table. 168 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 5: What does that look like? I don't know, but I 169 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 5: do know we have to continue to talk. I was 170 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 5: in a foreign affairs meeting and I asked, who is 171 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 5: talking to President Putin? Who's talking to President Buten? And 172 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 5: they said there were some backdoor channels. I said, well, 173 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 5: I'd like to see the front door. I like to 174 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 5: see the President Biden and possibly President Puten try to 175 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 5: get together to talk face to face, man to man, 176 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:57,119 Speaker 5: eye to eye. I will not stop until peace is exhausted. 177 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 5: The possibility of peace. We have to believe peace in 178 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 5: order to achieve it. 179 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: Well, I would certainly never call you naive, Congressman, but 180 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 2: I wonder if it makes you uncomfortable that you're agreeing 181 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: with some members of the conservative right in the Republican Conference, 182 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: the Marjorie Taylor Greens who say not another dollar. 183 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: JD. 184 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 2: Vance says it's time for accountability, and it sounds like 185 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 2: you're keeping company with them from a policy standpoint. 186 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 5: Do you disagree I've not followed all of their policies. 187 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 5: Some of the persons you mentioned are not on foreign affairs. 188 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 5: I'm looking at the information as i've received it. I've 189 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 5: got enormous amount of respect for many of my colleagues. 190 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 5: People have come here to be representatives, and we're seeing 191 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 5: a lot of the same facts. So if we end 192 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 5: up with the same conclusion having seen the same facts, 193 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 5: I think that's progress. I don't like to go into 194 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 5: an ideological bucket or lane, or let's get to what's 195 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 5: right versus what's wrong. 196 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: We're spending time with Congressman Jonathan Jackson, Democrat from Illinois 197 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: as they look at headlines coming from the President's and 198 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: he was at a fundraiser a short time ago. Congressman, 199 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 2: and I'd like to get your take on funding for 200 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: Israel as well. Because the president's making news here, I 201 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: can't play it for you. This was not something that 202 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: we could record, but he says Benjamin NETANYAHUO and the 203 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 2: Israeli government are starting to lose support, which is pretty 204 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: remarkable to hear. Joe Biden says Netanyahu is a good friend, 205 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: but I believe he has to change. 206 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 3: Do you agree? 207 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 5: Oh? Absolutely, And I think the benefit of having a 208 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 5: special relationship having a friendship is you can tell your 209 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 5: friends things that are inconvenient, things that are uncomfortable, but 210 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 5: you can tell them the truth. I have the opportunity 211 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 5: to go to Israel in September with the Congressional Black 212 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 5: Caucus an APEX. We were in a meeting with the 213 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 5: Prime Minister, mister Netanyahoo. I specifically asked a question regarding 214 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 5: the Palestinian visa waiver program, the reciprocal visa waiver program, 215 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,359 Speaker 5: and that simply was, if a person has a blue passport. 216 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 5: Missus Connaisa Rice was on this program as well. A 217 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 5: blue passport is a blue passport. If you an American 218 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 5: citizen and our country has a visa waiver reciprocal program 219 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 5: with you, you honor our visa likely honor as yours. The 220 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 5: Palestinian constituents in my district were having a problem going 221 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 5: into Tel Aviv and on to visit their family in 222 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 5: the West Bank and Gaza. I specifically asked mister Netanyahu 223 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 5: about that. He deflected, he had two of his other 224 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 5: persons answered the questions, so I didn't think he was 225 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 5: answering with much candor. I think that President Biden is 226 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 5: telling them the truth that if one hundred and three 227 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 5: countries have said cease fire. Now if the United States, 228 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 5: that is your special friend, is the only one that 229 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 5: goes against everyone in the Security Council, and you're still 230 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 5: going forward. The humanitarian crisis is unfolding before our very eyes. 231 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 5: And you see babies now that are missing limbs, when 232 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 5: you see people that are missing water, that are lacking water, 233 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 5: when medical supplies are no longer aiding, when you see 234 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 5: that we have hostages. 235 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 2: Would we not send money then to Israel? Does Israel 236 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: really need more money? 237 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 5: Well from the usl Well, that's the second part of 238 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 5: the question. First, I want to get the hostages out, 239 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 5: and you can't get the hostages out while you're seeking revenge. 240 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 5: You have to seek reconciliation or revenge. When I first 241 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 5: sign on the seas fire, I was seeking reconciliation so 242 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 5: we could prioritize the hostages. I felt for all those 243 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 5: families that are in the streets of Israel that were 244 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 5: asking for their family members to be returned. I don't 245 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 5: want to see one of them killed because of collateral damage. 246 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 5: That's another death that's unnecessary. When you see two to 247 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 5: one children and women are dying, that's wrong. Even when 248 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 5: you saw George Bush going to Afghanistan, he gave us 249 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 5: a deck of cards to tell us who he was 250 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 5: looking for when he went into Iraq, Like who is 251 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 5: a mosque? And how many people they're saying it's thirty thousand. 252 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 5: I've heard the Israeli defense firm director say if we're 253 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 5: killing only two to one of civilians, that that's not bad. 254 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 5: Where did that calculation come from? That's wrong. So I 255 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 5: do think that President Biden has to have an uncomfortable 256 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 5: conversation with mister Netanyaho to tell them the truth. I 257 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 5: am pro Israel, I'm pro their defense. I do have 258 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 5: concerns about mister Netanyah who's leadership. I don't think you're 259 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 5: serving the interests of the people the best. 260 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: Well, this has been a fascinating conversation, Congressman. I appreciate 261 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: your honesty and your generosity with time here because we 262 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: don't have a lot of Democrats speaking specifically to Ukraine 263 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: the way that. 264 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 3: You are now. 265 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 2: And I wonder before you leave us, when you look 266 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: at this menu. We've talked about two items on a 267 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: very long menu of items to be taken care of 268 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: by this Congress. It looks like you are going to 269 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: be going onto holiday recess at the end of this week. 270 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: That leaves funding for the government these supplemental requests. We've 271 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: discussed a deal on the border extensions for Faiza and 272 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: the FAA all into next year. Unless you tell me, 273 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: can the House do anything in the next few days. 274 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 5: I doubt it. I'm hopeful, but on that I think 275 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 5: I'll be pragmatic and say I don't see it that 276 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 5: there is an extreme faction within the Republican Party that 277 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 5: really doesn't want the government. They don't mind seeing the 278 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 5: government shut down. We've seen them take the government to 279 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 5: the edge with the spending cap, with the death ceiling. 280 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 5: We've seen them take the government to the spending brink 281 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 5: with the appropriations for September speak. McCarthy did the right 282 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 5: thing in avoiding the government shut down and bring the 283 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 5: bill to the floor, and they took his head off. 284 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 5: I mean like he was putting country first. I think 285 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 5: some other people in the party need to think about 286 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 5: country first and lose the hard line. No one's going 287 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 5: to get everything that they want. Let's put America first. 288 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 5: Let's move the country, our national security, our friends and allies, 289 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 5: and let's be take humane priorities abroad. What's happening in 290 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 5: the West Bank, in the settlement, was happening in Gaza 291 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 5: has to stop. Seventeen thousand people have died. The death 292 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 5: toll is mounting. Now there's disease in humanitarian crisis. Reconciliation, 293 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 5: I believe is the only path forward. And you asked 294 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 5: about the specific funding for Israel. They do need stronger defense. 295 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 5: Do you know when we started on October seventh, the 296 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 5: United States did not have a sworn did not have 297 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 5: a confirmed ambassador from the United States to Israel in place. 298 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 5: We did not have a confirmed ambassador from the United 299 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 5: States to Egypt in place, so there was no place 300 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 5: for the Palestinians to go, So our diplomacy was down. 301 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 5: When mister Austin went over there with the gunboat, we 302 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 5: didn't have our diplomacy in place, so we did not 303 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 5: have a development plan. I've never seen Yahoo speak aggressively 304 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 5: forcibly about being a peacemaker and talking about a Palestinian 305 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 5: development plan. He's never sought a two state solution. So 306 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 5: I want to see peace in the region. I want 307 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 5: to see children the next time I go over there, 308 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 5: God willing playing together, not building up a bigger perimeter, 309 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 5: a bigger border, but that only starts with the pathway through. 310 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 2: At the same time, Congressman, and I know I'm way 311 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: over time here, but I just I can't get enough 312 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: of the back and forth sometimes here I. 313 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 3: Can't get nobody with you. Well, God bless you. 314 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: Nobody was telling us what to do after nine to 315 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: eleven or early, and if they did, we weren't listening 316 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: very closely. Does that mean something to you when you 317 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 2: consider what Israel just went through on October seventh? This 318 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: was like multiple nine to elevens for them, and they 319 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 2: think they need to root out evil here just across 320 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: the border. Imagine if that happened in Canada, and what 321 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: the heck we would do about it? 322 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 5: Right? Well, think about it. So what's a lesson learned 323 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 5: that we figured out from Afghanistan after nine eleven? First 324 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 5: of all, we went to go after ben Laden, which 325 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 5: isn't an army, which is a spirit, which is a 326 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 5: set and a group. Two trillion dollars later, twenty years later, 327 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 5: we leave Afghanistan having to leave all of our guns 328 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 5: and boats and planes everything behind, only to find that 329 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 5: Osama bin Laden was in Pakistan watching Netflix. I guess 330 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 5: or some of the TV ship of program in a 331 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 5: compound across the street from like a military base. Give 332 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 5: me a break. I mean, so intelligence is the way. 333 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 5: When this started on October seventh, we all agreed this 334 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 5: was an intelligence failure. Let's not deflect. Let's beef up 335 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 5: the intelligence. Look at what happened in Rwanda on that 336 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 5: trip to Israel. I went to Rwanda after we left Israel, 337 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 5: and Rwanda lost a million residents in one hundred days. 338 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 5: They arrested thirty thousand people. They've been locked up for 339 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 5: thirty years. Rwandan intelligence. Rwanda now is the fourth largest 340 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 5: group that's say, peacekeepers into the United Nations, and they 341 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 5: have an economy that's thriving, and they've sought a certain 342 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 5: peace with their neighbors. They had a five million people 343 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 5: to die in a civil war, if you will, with 344 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 5: the Congo. So be it in Israel, be it in Rwanda, 345 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 5: being in South Africa, being with African Americans in the 346 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 5: United States that had to overcome years and centuries of 347 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 5: Jim Crow and slavery. Its reconciliation is the pathway forward. 348 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 2: You know, I was going to ask you, Congressman, what 349 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 2: your dad would do if he was having this conversation, 350 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: or if he was holding your seat. But I think 351 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 2: you probably already told us. I hope that you won't 352 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 2: be a stranger. Jonathan Jackson, Democrat from Illinois. First, it's 353 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 2: good to see you, Congressman. 354 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 3: I appreciate you. 355 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: Indeed, I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. We've got to bring 356 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 2: the panel in right now. We're not breaking. We have 357 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: to continue this conversation with Genie, Shanzeno and Chape and 358 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: Fay because I have to admit and we're going to 359 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 2: hear obviously perspective from the left and the right here. 360 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: I have to admit, Jeanie, I didn't expect that conversation 361 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: with the congressman, with someone who sits on the House 362 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: Foreign Affairs Committee, and I tried to make the point 363 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: that he's actually in many cases sounding like conservative Republicans. 364 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 3: In the House. 365 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 2: Does that tell you about kind of a migration or 366 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: an evolution of democratic thoughts specifically when it comes to Ukraine. 367 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: Let's parse these out individually here, or is the congressman 368 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: just giving us his take from his perch. 369 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 6: It was a remarkably candid conversation, and the representative just fascinating. 370 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 6: My view is he does reflect what is happening in 371 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 6: the Democratic base. I don't know his district well, but 372 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,239 Speaker 6: I would assume in his district in Illinois, and you 373 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 6: hear it from Democrats across the country and you're focusing 374 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 6: specifically in this instance on Ukraine, and I think he 375 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 6: is absolutely right. Americans want to know what is happening 376 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 6: with their public funds and are those funds being utilized 377 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 6: or is there a chance of success as it pertains 378 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 6: to Ukraine. I am struck by the fact that you 379 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 6: know what a difference a year makes. As Vladimir Zelensky 380 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 6: apparently leaves the capital empty handed, it is a year 381 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 6: ago he was met with a standing ovation and you know, 382 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 6: part of what has happened here is they have not 383 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 6: had success and Russia has, and so there is that 384 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 6: there is are the challenges economically and politically in the 385 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 6: United States. All of those factors weigh in, and I 386 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 6: think you know the representative mentioned, you know he is 387 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 6: new in his first termed in Congress. This is why 388 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 6: bring in new voices to Congress, younger officials, people who 389 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 6: represent all parts of our country. Because I think he 390 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 6: is representing the Democratic base, not just what we're hearing 391 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 6: from Republicans on both of these important issues. 392 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: Well, boy, that that would mean that Joe Biden's on 393 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 2: an island here at least when it comes to Ukraine. 394 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 2: Then again there's Chuck Schumer. Listen to the Senate Majority 395 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: leader earlier today on the floor. 396 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 7: He made it clear, and we all made it clear 397 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 7: that if we lose Putin wins, and this will be very, 398 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 7: very dangerous for the United States. So we cannot let 399 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 7: Putin influence through any surrogate. What is what we need 400 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 7: to do for Ukraine? 401 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 2: We turned to Republican strategists, Chapin Fey, Now, Chapin, it's 402 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 2: great to have you back. What do you make of 403 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: this in person pitch here, he sat down with the Speaker, 404 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 2: talked to all the Senators on his way to the 405 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 2: White House. Now, as President Zelenski weren't out as welcome 406 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: in Washington, I don't know if I. 407 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 8: Would quite characterize that as wearing out his welcome, but 408 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 8: I you know, I agree with everything Ginny said earlier 409 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 8: about the changing situation, right, and what a difference a year. 410 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 9: Makes, And I would just add some of the problems 411 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 9: over the last year in America, you know, the migrant border. 412 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 9: That's something on a lot of legislator's minds and may 413 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 9: even hold up this whole, you know, may hold up 414 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 9: the Ukraine eight package, you know, the war in Israel. Right, 415 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 9: We're now seeing on a lot of different fronts financially 416 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 9: for the United States where. 417 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 8: That money is going. And I think, you know, the 418 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 8: representative we've just heard from and the other side of 419 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 8: the aisle is very concerned with how much is going 420 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 8: to Ukraine and whether we will be successful and what 421 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 8: that money, you know, the accountability for the money. Right, 422 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 8: I've read this morning that they're projecting the Ukraine may 423 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 8: need another one hundred billion next year after one hundred 424 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 8: billion has already been allocated. So this is you know, 425 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 8: a very big funding and foreign policy and war decisions 426 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 8: for the Congress to make. So I think some negotiations 427 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 8: and some questions about where the money is going is 428 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 8: totally fair. And I think, you know, like you said, 429 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 8: a little struck by how the Democratic Caucus is asking 430 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 8: similar questions to what the Republicans have been have been asking, 431 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 8: which means I do think support To answer your first question, 432 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 8: I do think the support he's going to have to 433 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 8: work a lot harder this time around to get the funding. 434 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: Genie, what do you make of the messaging from Speaker Johnson? 435 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 2: He again met one on one with President Zelenski. He 436 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: did get to the border. Just to be clear, when 437 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 2: he spoke to reporters coming out of the meetings, the 438 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 2: microphone set up there and says, look, we just had 439 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: our meeting. 440 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 3: Well, let's do it right now. Mike Johnson just. 441 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 4: Had a good meeting with President Zelenski. I reiterated to 442 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 4: him that we stand with him and against Putin's brutal invasion. 443 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 4: The American people stand for freedom and they're on the 444 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 4: right side of this fight. 445 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 2: Then he got into conditions. He said, but we need 446 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 2: a strategy, we need an endgame. We need to know 447 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 2: how to win how long it's going to take. And 448 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: he talked about that in length, saying that the Biden 449 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 2: administration has not made good on this. We've been asking 450 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 2: since the day I got the gavel, he said, And 451 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 2: then eventually he got to a border deal. So, Genie, 452 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 2: what is holding up funding for Ukraine. Is it lack 453 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: of strategy or lack of a border deal. 454 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 6: I think there are components of both, and it depends 455 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 6: on who you talk to which of those they stressed. 456 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 6: I continue to believe it is and the Democrats' best 457 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 6: interest to accept forward movement, even if it's not everything 458 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 6: they want. As it pertains to security, the latest polling 459 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 6: we've seen, Republicans are winning on the issue of border 460 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 6: security at the polls. You know, you look at the 461 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 6: Independent number, it's all over eighty percent of Independence say 462 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 6: the border on the south is insecure. It would behoove 463 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 6: the Democrats to get there and to move forward. The 464 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 6: concessions being asked for are not traumatic and not dramatic. 465 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 6: I think the Biden administration needs to be actively pushing 466 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 6: for those deeply concerning to me, as we are hearing 467 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 6: that the White House, while they have talked about it 468 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 6: and President Obama has, they are still not maybe as 469 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 6: actively involved in Congress and pushing for this. But it 470 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 6: is to their benefits, so border they should go with. 471 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 6: As it pertains to Ukraine, you know, the reality is 472 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 6: the White House needs to educate on how much more 473 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 6: expect and costly in lives this whole thing will be. 474 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 6: Now if we don't fund Ukraine at this moment and 475 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 6: we push this off, what will the next steps be 476 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 6: Americans have to write to ask those questions. They've got 477 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 6: to be answered over and over again by leadership in 478 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 6: Congress and the White House. And I include in that, 479 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 6: by the way, Mike Johnson, you're the Speaker of the House. 480 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 6: You answer that question. You said you supported it. It's 481 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 6: not all on the White House, fair enough. 482 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: I wonder what we're going to hear a little bit 483 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 2: later on today, By the way, four fifteen Washington time, 484 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 2: if you want to take dibbs on when this starts, 485 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: it'll be a bilateral news conference too. And two Biden 486 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,719 Speaker 2: Zelenski two questions each. And you can just imagine shaping 487 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 2: with the questions are going to be. This might be 488 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 2: the last opportunity Joe Biden has to make this case 489 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 2: with President Zelenski standing at his side. 490 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 3: What do you want to hear? 491 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 8: Well, I just underscore what Ginny was just saying, and 492 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 8: you would ask her about, you know, the different issues 493 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,239 Speaker 8: people have our life onto. The problem is people are 494 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 8: finding excuses right where they were looking for ways to 495 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 8: say yes a year ago, people are looking for the 496 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 8: excuses latch onto to say no. So I do think 497 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 8: the president needs to both silence both presidents need to 498 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 8: just like GENNI say, explain why the investment now is 499 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 8: going to be way less and easier than if we, 500 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 8: you know, let Ukraine do this all on its own. Right, 501 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 8: what you know, we can't let Russia win. It will 502 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 8: resonate with a lot of people in the Republican Party 503 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 8: for sure. Right If not funding this war means that 504 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 8: Russia is going to win and Putin gets a win, 505 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 8: then I think people will think twice about it. 506 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 5: You know. 507 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 8: I don't know that the President will do this in 508 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 8: this particular venue, but he really needs to show that 509 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 8: he's addressing the problems you're at home as well, right, 510 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 8: There are ways to do both, but a lot of 511 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 8: us on the right are not seeing anything here at 512 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 8: home for Americans. So you know, another one hundred billion 513 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 8: next year to help Ukraine is a hard sell when 514 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 8: nothing is happening here at home to help, you know, 515 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 8: close this other border and help with problems here. So 516 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 8: I do think that has to come out. Whether he 517 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 8: says that's sitting next to the Lensklee, I don't know. 518 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 8: He's got two answers, you know, to really be concise 519 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 8: and deliver a knockout blow here for his package. 520 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 2: Well, you know, the border is one thing. I wonder 521 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 2: if he gets to that today, Genie, and maybe he's 522 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: when they're in the Oval Office together they actually do 523 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 2: craft a strategy if he gets to both of those issues, 524 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 2: and he's going to say openly, I'm sure you know, look, 525 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: I know that we need a deal on the border 526 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 2: to make this happen. 527 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 3: We need to. 528 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 2: Close our border to secure our border. Whatever language he's 529 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 2: going to use before we get to the matter of Ukraine, 530 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 2: what does he need to say about strategy tonight when 531 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: they go live at the White House. 532 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,239 Speaker 6: You know, I think he needs to talk about the 533 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 6: cost to the American public if they don't approve this funding. Now, 534 00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 6: you know, one of the things you mentioned is the 535 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 6: rhetoric coming from the right about this and how Democrats 536 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 6: are starting to match that. There is a key difference. 537 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 6: We heard jd Vance talking to Steve Bannon and accusing 538 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 6: Zelensky of corruption. There is little evidence, no evidence that 539 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 6: I know of that those points are a far afield 540 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 6: from the valid questions about if we invest this money, 541 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 6: what do we get out of it, what is it, 542 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 6: why is it in our interest? And how that's what 543 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 6: the president needs to focus on because the answers are very, 544 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 6: very real. From that perspective, Just talk to the national 545 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 6: security head of Poland who is saying, we have three years. 546 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 6: We have closed the border at this point, as has 547 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 6: Finland because of where we are worried about an incursion 548 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 6: by Russia. If we don't get this right this time, 549 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 6: time is of the essence. The President has to say 550 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 6: it's in our interest, in NATO's interest, to move forward 551 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 6: on this now. The costs are too high to put 552 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 6: this off. 553 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 2: Got to be honest, I think he needs to talk 554 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 2: about where that money's going as well. Having listened to 555 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: both of you, if the bulk of the sixty billion 556 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: dollars stays here in the US and goes to Alabama, 557 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 2: Georgia and Texas where the defense contractors are, maybe we 558 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 2: rename this bill something to think about. 559 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the 560 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the 561 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. 562 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 563 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 564 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 3: Welcome to our two of Sound on. 565 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington, joined now by Kaylee Lions, 566 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: which we do each day at this time. Try to 567 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: expand our thoughts with Kaylee, and it's good to see you. 568 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 2: We've likewise been talking politics Zelenski for the last hour. 569 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 2: We've barely mentioned this CPI data, which glad to say, 570 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: we'll be talking about with Baratramamordy in just a moment. 571 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: You can look at this anyway you want. White House 572 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 2: put a good spin on it. Markets seem to be 573 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: not freaking out about it, but the fact is inflation 574 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 2: is picking up. 575 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 10: A little bit again here, just a little bit on 576 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 10: the headline figure, So everything that incorporates food and energy prices, 577 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 10: which we know are really volatile, up a tenth of 578 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 10: one percent compared to last month. The expectation was inflation 579 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 10: was not going to increase in peace a month over month, 580 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 10: but everything else came in roughly in line, so could 581 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 10: have been worse, I think, is the general takeaway. However, 582 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 10: we are still far above the Fed's two percent target, 583 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 10: ahead of the Federal Reserve making a great decision tomorrow. 584 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, And you know, look this always seems 585 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: to come back to the market getting ahead of itself 586 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: doesn't really change anything in terms of hikes, but it 587 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 2: might not mean cuts as soon as people hoped. 588 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: Is that where we are? 589 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, the market's still looking at more than 590 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 10: one hundred basis points of cuts that they're expecting from 591 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 10: the Federal Reserve that the Fed well, and see therein 592 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 10: lies the rub Joe, and I wonder when we hear 593 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 10: from Chairman Powell tomorrow how much he really is going 594 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 10: to try to push back against the notion that the 595 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 10: Fed's going to be cutting anytime soon, because the fact 596 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 10: of the matter is, if the market keeps betting the 597 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 10: Fed is going to turn, financial conditions are going to 598 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 10: stay easier, and that's going to undo a lot of 599 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 10: the work that the Federal Reserve was trying to do 600 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 10: in the first place by tightening things up. 601 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 2: Fascinating to get into this with borat raum Murdy. He's 602 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,959 Speaker 2: free to speak now, is I love this? Former Deputy 603 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 2: Director of the National Economic Council in the White House. 604 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 3: Brot, welcome back to Bloomberg. 605 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: I wonder your thoughts on everything that Kaylee just mentioned here, 606 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 2: because the FED is obviously looking at this pretty closely. 607 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 2: I wonder how worried you are you may be about 608 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 2: the FED starting to cut too early. 609 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 11: Well, I think the best way to look at the 610 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 11: data is not necessarily in month over month increments, but 611 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 11: at least over a three month period. And I think 612 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 11: if you look at the annualized rate of headline CPI 613 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 11: over the last three months, it's two point two percent, 614 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 11: so it's basically at target. And I think that that 615 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 11: accounts for the fact that there's a lot of housing 616 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 11: disinflation in the pipeline that's not fully reflected in that figure. 617 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 11: So if I'm at the FED, certainly if I was 618 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 11: at the White House, I'd be looking at the longer 619 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 11: averages here and feeling pretty good that inflation was pretty 620 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 11: much at target and on its way to at or 621 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 11: below target over the next few months once the newest 622 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 11: housing data gets fully incorporated into that data. So as 623 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 11: for cuts, what the FED is going to do, I 624 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 11: think what the FED is likely to do is keep 625 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 11: rates where they are, including into early portion of next year. 626 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 11: I think, to be honest, what I think the FED 627 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 11: should be doing is getting out ahead of things a 628 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 11: little bit and considering rate cuts earlier next year, just 629 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 11: given the fact that we know there's always a lag 630 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 11: for that monetary policy to take effect, and you don't 631 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 11: want to see a significant spike in unemployment before those 632 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 11: cuts start to come. But I do think that it's 633 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 11: unlikely that the FED will be cutting early next year. 634 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 10: Leaves the White House can comment directly on Fed polity, 635 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 10: something that you can't do when you're inside the building. 636 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 10: Brought the idea though, of the FED cutting. Does that 637 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 10: imply that you think there's going to be some real 638 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 10: softness showing up in the economy that they're going to 639 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 10: have to address. Does that go against this whole idea 640 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 10: of a soft landing, because if the landing is soft, 641 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 10: why do they need to cut. 642 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 11: Well, I think that's precisely why they're not going to 643 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 11: cut early next year. I think that the FED is 644 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 11: likely to wait until they see evidence of a significant 645 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 11: labor market softening before they start to cut. I just 646 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 11: think that that may be a mistake in the sense 647 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 11: that we all know that monetary policy operates with lags. 648 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 11: I think that given the trend on inflation, the FED 649 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 11: has largely won its battle against inflation. It's good news. 650 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 11: I think monetary policy and fiscal policy work together over 651 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 11: the last few years very very well, and we've largely 652 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 11: achieved a soft landing. Now is the time to start 653 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 11: making the pivot away from the highly restrictive rates that 654 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 11: they have towards more neutral rates. I think that that 655 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 11: should start early next year. I just question whether this FED, 656 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 11: which I think is very worried about inflation and its 657 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 11: reputation on inflation, is likely to make that it as 658 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 11: quick as it should. 659 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 2: What are the conversations like inside the White House, the 660 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 2: ones that we don't hear barat. I don't know if 661 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 2: you can tell me too much about it, but look, 662 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 2: Donald Trump used to tweet directly at the FED share 663 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 2: asking him to move interest rates. We now have the opposite, 664 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 2: and we're referring to this with every question that we 665 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 2: ask you here. The White House does not comment on 666 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 2: the FED. Defer to the FED. Don't get in the 667 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: middle of it. But certainly there are conversations behind closed doors. 668 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 2: And I wonder how this president and his economic advisors 669 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 2: feel about the path that this FED has taken, knowing 670 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 2: that he's going to be running for reelection in the 671 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 2: midst of these conditions you're describing. 672 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 11: I think this President honestly takes it very seriously to 673 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 11: respect the Fed's independence, and I think that filters down 674 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 11: into his team, and of course senior members of his 675 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 11: team like Secretary Yellen and NYC Director Brainard came from 676 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 11: the FED, and so I think they also have a 677 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 11: very healthy respect for the Fed's independence and the important 678 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 11: role that plays in US economic stability. That said, I 679 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 11: think that there has been a significant amount of progress 680 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 11: on inflation. I think the concern would always be that 681 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 11: the FED starts to pivot too late, and unemployment starts 682 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 11: to accelerate before the FED can start cutting, and then 683 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 11: because of the delay in that taking effect, it's too 684 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 11: late and you're starting to enter a recessionary period. My hope, again, 685 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 11: the data we have right now suggests that the economy 686 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 11: is in a very strong position. There's nothing that I'm 687 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,240 Speaker 11: seeing right now that would suggest that labor market softening 688 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 11: is going to happen over the last next few months. 689 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 11: The question is what's going to be happening six, nine, 690 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 11: twelve months from now, Because as the FED is making 691 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 11: rate decisions today, that's really the time period where they 692 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 11: have to be looking at in terms of the effect 693 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 11: of that decision. And I hope, I'm hoping that the 694 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 11: FED is looking ahead a little bit, and in order 695 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 11: to fully achieve this soft landing, you need to make 696 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 11: sure that you pivot to a more neutral rate in 697 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 11: advance of any labor market softening. 698 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 10: Well, on the subject of labor market softening and the 699 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 10: statement that the President put out today in reaction to CPI, 700 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 10: he noted that inflation has come down to three point 701 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 10: one percent at the same time that the unemployment rate 702 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 10: has made has remained below four percent for the longest 703 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 10: stretch in decades at this point, and that statement went 704 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,879 Speaker 10: on to say, I know many Americans still find too 705 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 10: many things unaffordable and brought. We've talked about consistently this 706 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 10: White House not getting credit for inflation coming down, in 707 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 10: the economy hanging in there, and if you do start 708 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,359 Speaker 10: to see that labor market softening in a more material way, 709 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 10: is the clock against the side of not just the President, 710 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 10: but of the candidate Biden. 711 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:45,919 Speaker 5: Yeah. 712 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 11: Look, I think the question of what the economy is 713 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 11: going to do over the next nine or twelve months 714 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 11: as we approached the presidential election, in many ways is 715 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 11: going to be the key question electorally. You know, my 716 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 11: hope is that we continue to see inflation at or 717 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 11: near target over the next several months, and you continue 718 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 11: to see robust consumer spending, robust business investment, and as 719 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 11: a result, you know, steady economic growth. I think that 720 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 11: there's a pathway to see all of that. It requires 721 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 11: the FED, like I said, to be a little bit proactive. 722 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 11: It requires us to avoid any significant headwinds or unexpected 723 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 11: turmoil like we saw when Russia and David Ukraine and 724 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 11: disrupted international markets for oil and for wheat and for 725 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 11: other products. If we can dodge those types of things, 726 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 11: I think that there's a lot of optimism. I have 727 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 11: a lot of optimism about where the economy is going 728 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 11: to be over the next six to nine months. And 729 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 11: my guess and my expectation would be that if we 730 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 11: see that, that's going to be beneficial to the President, 731 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 11: and I think you'll start to get more credit for 732 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 11: managing a very strong economic recovery, one that's much better, 733 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 11: frankly than almost any other leading economy in the world. 734 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about some of the warnings 735 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: that we received months back. This is late summer going 736 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 2: into fall, barad I'm sure you remember the resumption of 737 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 2: student loan payments, told would be a significant drag on 738 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 2: consumer spending. 739 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 3: The childcare cliff, we went over it. 740 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 2: Impacting potentially thousands of childcare programs. COVID Era funding that lapsed, 741 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 2: we were told millions of families could be impacted. I 742 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 2: could add the expanded child tax care credit. What happened 743 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 2: to all of these potential threats were they not real? 744 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 5: Well? 745 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 11: I think that in the case of student loan repayment, yes, 746 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 11: we've seen when it comes to actual student loan borrowers 747 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,919 Speaker 11: who are subject to repayment, we have seen a change 748 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 11: in their behavior, which is what the White House was projecting. 749 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 11: I think that in terms of its macroeconomic effect, it 750 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 11: has been fairly subdued, because, to be honest, we have 751 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 11: a very large economy, and something that may end up 752 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 11: affecting ten or twenty million people at the end of 753 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 11: the day isn't necessarily going to be of macroeconomics significance. 754 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 11: It's still very impactful for those ten or twenty million 755 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 11: borrowers who are actively in repayment right now, and who 756 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 11: have gone from paying zero dollars a month to in 757 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 11: some cases several hundred dollars a month. Towards their student loans. 758 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 11: So I think we shouldn't diminish that. But I think 759 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 11: it's also fair to say it hasn't had a massive 760 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 11: at macroeconomic effect. Frankly, the White House was never projecting 761 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 11: that it would have a massive macroeconomic effect on childcare. 762 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,959 Speaker 11: That funding runs out at the end of the year, 763 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 11: and so the real concern is, come January February March, 764 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 11: once you see the impact of that funding being withdrawn, 765 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 11: are you going to have lots of childcare centers across 766 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 11: the country either pulling back on service or shutting down entirely. 767 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 11: And what's the impact of that going to be not 768 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 11: only on childcare workers, but on all those families who 769 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 11: rely on access to somewhat affordable childcare. So I think 770 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 11: in that instance, I think it's vitally important that Congress 771 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 11: step up and avoid that cliff and provide funding because 772 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 11: we could have real serious labor market effects, labor supply 773 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 11: effects in the spring of next year if that funding 774 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 11: is withdrawn. 775 00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 5: Yeah. 776 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 10: Well, on the subject of funding, Barot, obviously there is 777 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 10: an ongoing conversation of funding, not just as it relates 778 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 10: to childcare programs, but just overall. Top line figures for 779 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,439 Speaker 10: the US government of real argument on the Republican side 780 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 10: that more fiscal discipline needs to be exercised, But you're 781 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 10: even hearing it, and this ties back to the path 782 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 10: of interest rates from Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, who earlier 783 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 10: today was talking about how she does think inflation can 784 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 10: get down to two percent. She went on to say, though, 785 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,479 Speaker 10: in her remarks, that persistently high rates could imperil US 786 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 10: debt sustainability. It comes back down to not just a 787 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 10: monetary policy question, but a fiscal one as well. Barot, 788 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 10: how worried should we be about that? Farther down the 789 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,399 Speaker 10: line if we're talking about, sure, a FED that may 790 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 10: take rates from the high levels of which they are 791 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 10: now a little lower, but we're still talking about a 792 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 10: much higher interest rate regime than we were dealing with 793 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 10: just a few years ago. 794 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 5: Right. 795 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 11: I think the key question in all of this is 796 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 11: debt sustainability. In other words, what percentage of your GDP 797 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 11: are you paying towards your debts. Obviously there's two variables there, 798 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 11: the size of the debt and the interest rates that 799 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 11: those that debt is at. You know, our hope is 800 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 11: that both of those will come down over time. You know, 801 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 11: the President has proposed in his budget a three trillion 802 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 11: dollar reduction in the deficit over the next ten years, 803 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 11: with a mixture of some spending cuts and some revenue 804 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 11: increases from those at the very top and from very 805 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 11: large corporations. You know, I think that the story of 806 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 11: the last twenty to twenty five years, with first the 807 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 11: Bush tax cuts and the Trump tax cuts, is an 808 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 11: enormous reduction in revenue, primarily through cutting taxes for the 809 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 11: rich and big corporations. And I agree with Secretary Yellen, 810 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 11: it's not sustainable to maintain those rates and continue to 811 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 11: fund the types of investments that we need. The solution 812 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 11: is not to make huge cuts to entitlements or to 813 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,879 Speaker 11: make huge cuts to discretionary spending programs. The solution, as 814 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 11: the President has proposed, is to increase the amount of 815 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 11: revenue that we bring in from corporations and from large 816 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 11: from wealthier individuals, in essence, to go back to the 817 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 11: free Bush era tax cut rates. That alone would get 818 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 11: us most of the way there towards addressing the fiscal issues. 819 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 5: That you have. 820 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 11: So obviously in twenty twenty five, there's going to be 821 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 11: a big debate about tax policy on the Hill because 822 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 11: a lot of the individual provisions and the Trump tax 823 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 11: bill expire that year, and I think it's underrated the 824 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 11: extent to which twenty twenty four is going to be 825 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 11: an election that has an enormous influence on the direction 826 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 11: of tax policy in the United States. 827 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 3: That is going to be a grand debate. 828 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to hearing the arguments for it, because 829 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 2: when I say the word revenue on the air, I 830 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 2: get hate mail every time. 831 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,959 Speaker 3: Broad We've only got a minute left. 832 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 2: Should we be worried about a downgrade from Moodies if 833 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 2: this budget debate doesn't go well next year, Well. 834 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 11: No disrespect to Moodies, but I think what we've seen 835 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,279 Speaker 11: from previous downgrades is that it doesn't have much of 836 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 11: an effect on market perception. I still think that there's 837 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 11: an ample demand and respect for US treasuries, you know. Unfortunately, 838 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 11: Moody is correct about one thing, which is that extremism 839 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 11: from Republicans, which have caused multiple near misses on the 840 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 11: debt ceiling, has has done some reputational harm. Again, this 841 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 11: is solely caused by House Republicans who have taken us 842 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 11: to the brink of default over and over again. If 843 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 11: we could avoid that, that would be great. But I 844 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 11: think at the end of the day, people know the 845 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 11: United States is good to pay its debts and US 846 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 11: TATI communities. 847 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 2: He's not losing sleep. Barat Ramamurdy. Great to see you 848 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 2: come back and talk to us again soon. Thanks for 849 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 2: listening to the Sound on podcast. Make sure to subscribe 850 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 2: if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else 851 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 2: you get your podcasts, and you can find us live 852 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,399 Speaker 2: every weekday from Washington, DC at one pm Eastern Time 853 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 2: at Bloomberg dot com.