Speaker 1: All Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Better Offline, iHeartRadio's premium tech podcast.
Speaker 2: They're very serious one too. What and after earnings failed
Speaker 2: to reassure investors about their concerns around general if AI's
Speaker 2: return on investment, Nvidious stock has suffered a record two
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy nine billion dollar loss in one day's trading.
Speaker 2: It's truly truly crazy. And today we're talking about the
Speaker 2: most important story in Nvidia, which is of course chief
Speaker 2: executive Jensen Wang and his wonderful swag. He this man
Speaker 2: knows how to dress, which can be rare in the
Speaker 2: tech industry. But I've brought in mementswear expert Derek Guy
Speaker 2: to discuss it. Derek, thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2: So Jensen looks good, But how would you describe his general.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny for a guy who is essentially
Speaker 1: ushering in what could be transformative change in the economy,
Speaker 1: possibly having effects in politics. You know, many fear that
Speaker 1: this is going to spark off a wave of unemployment
Speaker 1: and kind of a shift of growing inequality in the
Speaker 1: United States. He kind of dresses like an evil character.
Speaker 1: I think he's very stylish, But he kind of dresses
Speaker 1: a bit like an evil character because he does these
Speaker 1: kind of all black outfits with these most of them
Speaker 1: look like to be cowhide or look like cowhide, possibly
Speaker 1: go hide leather jackets, sometimes exotic leather jackets. But it's
Speaker 1: always this kind of very sleek, all black look that
Speaker 1: you know, you generally kind of associate with kind of
Speaker 1: ominous evilness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I always thought it was kind of more
Speaker 2: of a biker look. But what is he do you
Speaker 2: think even going for? Here? Is it? Do you think
Speaker 2: he's going for evil or is he just trying to
Speaker 2: be a certain kind of cool. No.
Speaker 1: I think he's probably aiming to be a certain kind
Speaker 1: of coal, a biker kind of edgy character, and I
Speaker 1: think he pulls it off well. I think he's actually
Speaker 1: one of the few. I think there's a low bar
Speaker 1: for tech guys, but he actually, I think, clears the
Speaker 1: bar to be a pretty stylish figure.
Speaker 2: So tell me about these jackets. Have you looked into
Speaker 2: what kinds that? I know you've talked about materials, But
Speaker 2: what is it about these cuts exactly? And these do
Speaker 2: you know the brands at all?
Speaker 1: I don't know the brands. I do think, I suspect
Speaker 1: that they're custom made for him. They fall very well
Speaker 1: on him. So everything about a jacket, whether it's a
Speaker 1: tailor jacket or a parker or a leather jacket, everything
Speaker 1: hangs from the shoulders, and if the shoulders are not
Speaker 1: cut right, then it's just the jacket's not gonna fit well.
Speaker 1: And his jackets fit very well in that Essentially he
Speaker 1: gets a very nice kind of upside down vs for
Speaker 1: the zippers, which demonstrates that the shoulders fit well, and
Speaker 1: the cut is done intentionally to create that kind of
Speaker 1: a little bit more angular look. Some of his jackets,
Speaker 1: I believe from memory, have what's called a long front balance.
Speaker 1: So when you're looking at a jacket from the side,
Speaker 1: it's always fine for the front ham the front of
Speaker 1: the hem to be lower or even with the back,
Speaker 1: but you never want the front of the jacket to
Speaker 1: be higher than the back. Generally speaking, I actually can't
Speaker 1: think of many exceptions to this rule. But his jackets
Speaker 1: are cut such that he gets very very on some
Speaker 1: of the jackets, not all of them. On some of
Speaker 1: the jackets he gets very low front balance, and it
Speaker 1: looks very stylish that way. It's just a little bit
Speaker 1: more of a stylized look. It's clearly I think he
Speaker 1: hired somebody to style him. His suits generally also fit
Speaker 1: very well, and my guess is that he just doesn't
Speaker 1: want to deal with different combination of outfits all the time,
Speaker 1: and this allows him to stick with a singular look
Speaker 1: and look pretty good in public life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it kind of feels like an upgrade from Zuckerberg's
Speaker 2: whole whole hoodie situation. And I think a lot of people,
Speaker 2: by the way, none of this podcast is an ethical
Speaker 2: evaluation of these people. This is this their take. But Zuckerberg,
Speaker 2: for example, was doing it very clearly because it was easy,
Speaker 2: and I think people people think people underplay how much
Speaker 2: of that goes into the fashion of these tech entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's interesting to couch this in the
Speaker 1: history of kind of the impact the tech industry has
Speaker 1: had on fashion, so or men's fashion specifically. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you think of basically post war era in the
Speaker 1: United States, the suit has been kind of declining since
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and seventies, the suit became too tied
Speaker 1: with the establishment, and after kind of student war protests,
Speaker 1: freedom movements, the Watergate scandal. People really did not want
Speaker 1: to be associated with the establishment. So after the Second
Speaker 1: World War, slowly people started to shed the suit and
Speaker 1: started to take on different types of casual, often casual
Speaker 1: that represented the working class. But I think there was
Speaker 1: a major shift starting in the nineties after the tech
Speaker 1: boom and the rise of Silicon Valley kind of billionaires. Essentially,
Speaker 1: it wasn't just that the suit was no longer desirable.
Speaker 1: It's that another form of fashion became very desirable, and
Speaker 1: that fashion was the kind of like hoodie gens uniform
Speaker 1: that Mark Zuckerberg specifically ushered in. And it was desirable
Speaker 1: in the sense that it signaled a certain kind of
Speaker 1: new meritocracy to say that we don't que to the
Speaker 1: kind of traditionalism of industries back East. We're in California,
Speaker 1: shaking up the economy, and the only thing that matters
Speaker 1: is your skills. You know. SBF basically adopted this kind
Speaker 1: of ethos. He looked pretty, you know, he dressed he
Speaker 1: did not dress very well, And I think part of
Speaker 1: that was this act to say, I am so in
Speaker 1: the world of intellectual thought and coding, and I only
Speaker 1: care about meritocracy that I can't spare a single thought
Speaker 1: to how I dress. But in reality, this uniform, this
Speaker 1: hoodie and Jean's uniform, especially in the tech industry, became
Speaker 1: its own kind of norm, such that it wasn't just
Speaker 1: that people didn't care about fashion. It's that dressing a
Speaker 1: certain way signal that you were part of the group,
Speaker 1: part of the crowd. And now we see that the
Speaker 1: original people who ushered in that ethos are actually taking
Speaker 1: I don't want to say, you know, they're not. Mark
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg is not transforming his look, but at least since
Speaker 1: the fall of last year, he certainly has taken a
Speaker 1: slightly larger in and his luck, and he's transforming his
Speaker 1: look a little bit. He's looking a little bit more stylish,
Speaker 1: and I think that that signals a naturally significant change
Speaker 1: in how the tech industry thinks about fashion, and then
Speaker 1: also how that is impacting the larger cultural space.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't really think about it. But Zuckerberg, he
Speaker 2: he is kind of he's dressing like a man dressed
Speaker 2: up as a nineties rapper at times, but he seems
Speaker 2: to be paying more attention to the quality of clothes,
Speaker 2: at least like it looked what he is wearing looks
Speaker 2: nicer hangs on him better versus feeling like And I
Speaker 2: admit before this goal, I didn't really think about how
Speaker 2: performative the I'm not really trying look is. But it
Speaker 2: seems like he's trying now, and I wonder if that
Speaker 2: is trying to sigle a shift in the industry at
Speaker 2: least with him.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not really quite sure what is his deal.
Speaker 1: There have been multiple articles written about his style. For
Speaker 1: a while, it was rumored that all of his T
Speaker 1: shirts were his gray T shirts were from Kuchinelli and
Speaker 1: they bought them from Milk's Bashford in San Francisco. I
Speaker 1: can't remember the price of the T shirts, but it
Speaker 1: was rumored that he was spending something like a thousand
Speaker 1: or two thousand dollars on hoodies and like seven hundred
Speaker 1: dollars on T shirts. That was published again somewhere, and
Speaker 1: I want to say it was maybe the cut, but
Speaker 1: afterwards Mark Coodie's I'm sorry, Mark Coody. Mark Zuckerberg's team
Speaker 1: reached out to the writer to clarify to say that
Speaker 1: he does not, in fact buy all of his hoodies
Speaker 1: from books Bashford, and that he did buy one once
Speaker 1: but then just never did again, but he listed the
Speaker 1: names of where he gets his clothing, and they were
Speaker 1: pretty kind of I would say, in the know brands,
Speaker 1: not super fashionable, but relatively in the know. So he
Speaker 1: named Todd Snyder, Buck Mason, John Elliott, which is very
Speaker 1: in the know. I think some other brands that escape
Speaker 1: escape me at the moment, but these these brands essentially
Speaker 1: are very rarely sold in just one store, So I
Speaker 1: thought he was working with a stylist. His team denies
Speaker 1: that he works with a stylist, but the difference of
Speaker 1: his clothes is that they are a little bit more
Speaker 1: in conversation with what's trending at the moment. So if
Speaker 1: you actually go to his Instagram page, I think his
Speaker 1: Instagram handle is Zuck, you'll see that starting in I
Speaker 1: will say, like October or November of last year, his
Speaker 1: wardrobe dramatically changed. So before he wore pretty kind of
Speaker 1: standard T shirts, jeans, sometimes a sweatshirt, and the cut
Speaker 1: was pretty basic. The shoulders seems sat on his shoulder bone,
Speaker 1: you know, like slim straight jeans. It's so very very
Speaker 1: basic kind of look. But then starting in October and November,
Speaker 1: you start to see the cuts change. He wore a
Speaker 1: drop shoulder scene. When he wore long sleeves, the sleeves
Speaker 1: would kind of stack a little bit around his wrist.
Speaker 1: What else was he wearing? He was obviously he adopted
Speaker 1: a gold chain, which was recently written about, I think
Speaker 1: in the Wall Street Journal and even Slate, And I
Speaker 1: think it just demonstrates a little bit more attention paid
Speaker 1: to the idea of a silhouette. And yeah, I think
Speaker 1: he looks better for it.
Speaker 2: So for our listeners and also me, define exactly what
Speaker 2: a silhouette is. When you think of one as a
Speaker 2: person buying clothes.
Speaker 1: So there are two aspects when you're buying clothes. There's
Speaker 1: fit and there's silhouette. Fit is I think a very
Speaker 1: you should think of it in very narrow terms. So
Speaker 1: to give an example, when you are, let's say, buying
Speaker 1: a button up shirt, if you can't button up the shirt,
Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. If you're buying a suit jacket and
Speaker 1: the collar lists from your neck even when you're not moving,
Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. If you are buying pants and you
Speaker 1: can't button the pants, they don't fit. Silhouette is slightly different.
Speaker 1: Silhouette is the idea that if you take away all
Speaker 1: of the details in the outfit and you were just
Speaker 1: to think of the outfit in terms of shapes. Think
Speaker 1: of it as an outline that is basically the silhouette
Speaker 1: of the garment. So in that sense, sometimes you know,
Speaker 1: when people see like pants that are very crop they say, oh, well,
Speaker 1: those don't fit. Not necessarily. Sometimes pants are designed to
Speaker 1: be very cropped, and that's part of the silhouette. Sometimes
Speaker 1: sleeves are meant to stack around the on the wrist.
Speaker 2: It's just part of the look when you say, what
Speaker 2: do you mean? Sorry, So if you're.
Speaker 1: Wearing a very long sleeve shirt, for example, if you
Speaker 1: if you go to a bespoke tailor to give an example,
Speaker 1: and you're just to get a basic shirt made, they
Speaker 1: would design the shirt in such a way that the
Speaker 1: cuffs stay stationary on your wrists even when you move
Speaker 1: your arms. So that means that the sleeve length is
Speaker 1: a little bit longer than your actual arm. Otherwise, when
Speaker 1: you move your arms, the cuffs would ride up on you. However,
Speaker 1: some designers such as John Elliott I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: of some other bahrain as another designer that does this,
Speaker 1: probably rick Ohens assume because he does these very long
Speaker 1: drap silhouettes. The sleeve is so long that essentially you
Speaker 1: get a lot of stacking. The material ends up stacking
Speaker 1: around your wrist and it's just part of the look.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be that close fit. Only in
Speaker 1: one singular way, silhoette allows you to think of an
Speaker 1: outfit in terms of shapes and take a little bit
Speaker 1: more creativity.
Speaker 2: When you think about getting creative with outfits, I feel
Speaker 2: like you don't think of Silicon Valley. It feels that
Speaker 2: while there is some of the performative, I'm just a
Speaker 2: regular guy thing. I'm focused on my merit. I also
Speaker 2: feel like, especially in such a male dominated culture and
Speaker 2: especially now in the Valley, there's a lot of this
Speaker 2: masculine kind of Oh, you want to be a big,
Speaker 2: tough guy, and fashion is not for tough guys, and
Speaker 2: I feel like it deprives them of something, It deprives
Speaker 2: them as something they could really enjoy, Like, there are
Speaker 2: so many parts of the Valley that enjoy I don't know,
Speaker 2: building composable software, putting together different pieces to make the
Speaker 2: architecture work. Yeah, the idea of doing so esthetically is
Speaker 2: somehow feminine. It just feels like a loss for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I am a strong believer that you don't have
Speaker 1: to pay attention to clothes or I think people are
Speaker 1: generally aware of clothes to some degree, I think, more
Speaker 1: than they.
Speaker 2: Like to wry am.
Speaker 1: But I don't think anyone has to take a great
Speaker 1: interest in their wardrobe. And I'm very strong believer that
Speaker 1: you should never judge a person's deeper and more important
Speaker 1: inner qualities based on their dress. But I do think
Speaker 1: that if you I think of dress as sort of
Speaker 1: like eating, Like I have to eat to survive, and
Speaker 1: I have to dress to go outside. And if I
Speaker 1: have to do these things, you know, I think it's
Speaker 1: nicer to eat a tasty meal versus boiled potatoes. And
Speaker 1: I think it's nicer to wear something that makes me
Speaker 1: feel good versus something that makes me feel bad, something
Speaker 1: that makes me feel happy versus something that adds nothing
Speaker 1: to my life. And buying those items, you know, if
Speaker 1: you're like really deep into it, like it's you know,
Speaker 1: like basically a core part of my life, then certainly
Speaker 1: can take a lot of time. But it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to take a lot of your time. And if you
Speaker 1: just buy things that you like and make you happy.
Speaker 1: I think that just adds something to the beginning of
Speaker 1: your day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's something to enjoy about your persona, and
Speaker 2: a lot of these people are quite focused on their
Speaker 2: identity as well. And but one of the reasons I
Speaker 2: had you on here is I've got into clothes recently.
Speaker 2: It's crazy way to word it, but the idea of
Speaker 2: being able to dress yourself in a way that makes
Speaker 2: you feel good about yourself is fun and I think
Speaker 2: that societally, especially well definitely with men, there's this push
Speaker 2: away from it. But it also I'm glad you mentioned
Speaker 2: what you did there. It isn't about necessarily putting a
Speaker 2: ton of attention in, it's feeling good about what you're wearing.
Speaker 2: The only time I've really thought of this happening in
Speaker 2: the valley at scale. Are you familiar with American giant hoodies. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So there was this weird, long period like a year
Speaker 2: or two when everyone wanted one. They were like actually
Speaker 2: quite hard to get there with these very heavy hoodies.
Speaker 2: And that was the only time I think there's been
Speaker 2: like a known aesthetic discussion in the valley. And it's
Speaker 2: so it's something I think everyone could enjoy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a hoodie is a perfect example. I
Speaker 1: like Camber. Camber. American John also makes good hoodies. I'm
Speaker 1: not knocking them. Camber is another one that makes these
Speaker 1: very stout hoodies.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I like hoodies, and I think when you put I
Speaker 1: dislike really thin hoodies that kind of cling to your body,
Speaker 1: and I like a thicker, kind of rumor hoodie. And
Speaker 1: that's just personal preference. If someone likes the thinner hoodies,
Speaker 1: that's fine too. I just think when you are paying
Speaker 1: attention to these things, you know, I don't know, when
Speaker 1: you walk around, you feel a little bit better when
Speaker 1: you see yourself in the mirror. You like how you look,
Speaker 1: You feel a little bit more confident. I think of
Speaker 1: it just like it's just like cooking. You know, you
Speaker 1: could eat boiled potatoes, but you know you could also
Speaker 1: throw some seasoning in and it will taste better.
Speaker 2: So yeah, So actually that this is a good question.
Speaker 2: How can you dress like a hoodie, for example, and
Speaker 2: look fashionable and field well, not fashionable is probably the
Speaker 2: wrong word. What's a good fun way to dress with
Speaker 2: a hoodie, I guess is what I'm asking.
Speaker 1: So I'm I sort of feel that when we talk
Speaker 1: about aesthetics. In this sense, there is one aesthetic that
Speaker 1: most people agree looks good, and that tends to be
Speaker 1: aesthetics that are part of the hedgemonic culture. So the suit,
Speaker 1: for example, most people when they see a man in
Speaker 1: the suit, they if the suit is assuming, it's cut well,
Speaker 1: and it you know, fits well in all of these things,
Speaker 1: they usually say, oh, that person looks good, right, And
Speaker 1: it's sort of like how received pronunciation. Even if you
Speaker 1: dislike the hegemonic kind of role that it plays, everyone
Speaker 1: recognizes that, like, oh yeah, that's like the hegemonic you know,
Speaker 1: way of speaking, and it sounds good. Once you break
Speaker 1: out of whatever is hegemonic, then you get into all
Speaker 1: these niche territories and there are gonna be a lot
Speaker 1: of people that don't like how something sounds or how
Speaker 1: something looks. And that's the same with you know, pronunciations
Speaker 1: of regional kind of dialects. So when I think of hoodies,
Speaker 1: I personally like when a hoodie leans into a very
Speaker 1: classic workwhere look, so that's like raw denim jeans, olive fatigues,
Speaker 1: if you're wearing chinos, then I think it's better if
Speaker 1: it's if it's the kind of like tougher, more rugged
Speaker 1: chino styled after the mid nineteenth century Army chinos that
Speaker 1: were issued to US vets, versus the very kind of
Speaker 1: like business casual look. And then you know, like service boots,
Speaker 1: blundstones for a jacket if it's if the weather allows
Speaker 1: you to wear both a hoodie and a jacket, then
Speaker 1: trucker jackets, bombers, chortcoats, like anything that seems rugged. Double
Speaker 1: knee car heartpants also go really well with hoodies. But
Speaker 1: again recognizing that once you leave the world of hegemonic
Speaker 1: aesthetics and culture and all these representations, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people who say, oh, well, you know that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of judgments about someone's class and respectability
Speaker 1: based on whether or not they are conforming to these notions,
Speaker 1: which I don't adhere to. But I think aesthetically that
Speaker 1: kind of like rugged working class look with a hoodie looks.
Speaker 2: Really good, and there's nothing about a look like that
Speaker 2: that has to be schlubby, and I think that that's
Speaker 2: what people associate with sometimes.
Speaker 1: True, although I don't have a problem with looking schlubby,
Speaker 1: I think you can be schlubby and also be stylish.
Speaker 2: There are ways to wear sweatpants school, though I've get
Speaker 2: to work them out. And as far as Jensen's look goes,
Speaker 2: he mostly just looks like jeans, leather jacket, and black shirt. Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a couple of people who have adopted
Speaker 1: his look, and you can kind of do easy comparisons
Speaker 1: to see why his works better. So when you take it,
Speaker 1: when you look at Jensen Wong, if you pull up
Speaker 1: photos of him, and you can also compare his look
Speaker 1: to Sequoia partner Sean McGuire. Sean McGuire wears actually pretty
Speaker 1: similar outfits. He wears black leather jackets, black teas, and
Speaker 1: black jeans. But as jackets just don't fit as nicely.
Speaker 1: They're a little bit baggier. They don't have like you know,
Speaker 1: it's fine for a leather jacket to be baggy, but
Speaker 1: his does not look bagging in an intentional, thoughtful way.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of like a limp limp jacket that
Speaker 1: hangs on him. And then when you look at Jensen Wong,
Speaker 1: there are very strong angular lines that just make him
Speaker 1: look better for lack of a better word. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I think Jensen just happens. I assume because of his
Speaker 1: immense wealth. I assume he just you know, hired a
Speaker 1: stylist to help him with this part of his life.
Speaker 1: When you look at early photos of him, he dressed
Speaker 1: as a typical kind of tech nerd, like polo shirts,
Speaker 1: Gino's jeans. It just didn't look very stylish. But in
Speaker 1: this way he looks great. I will say that there
Speaker 1: was a moment, maybe like ten years ago instill somewhat today,
Speaker 1: where you saw a woman in professional spaces ditching Taylor
Speaker 1: jackets meaning sport codes toit jackets, blazers and the like,
Speaker 1: and substituting them for black double riders. And this was
Speaker 1: right around the time that black double riders started to
Speaker 1: become a fashion trend.
Speaker 2: And what is a black double rider?
Speaker 1: A black double rider is, So there are two main
Speaker 1: types of motorcycle jackets. There is a style called the
Speaker 1: cafe racer. That's a single I don't I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's called a single breasted, but you can think
Speaker 1: of it in terms of a single breasted. As the
Speaker 1: zip enclosure goes up and down, the center of the
Speaker 1: body usually has a band caller meant to fit very
Speaker 1: tight on the body. And then the double rider is
Speaker 1: is what you think of when you think of Marlon
Speaker 1: Brando and the Wild One, think of shot perfectos and
Speaker 1: as an asymmetrical zip, and usually a deep pocket on
Speaker 1: one side has lapels. And I would say, like in
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen twenty fifteen, when Eddie Slamaine was appointed creative
Speaker 1: director at Saint Laurent's, he and Kanye actually popularized the
Speaker 1: black double writer as a fashion piece. And they made
Speaker 1: it from being strictly a utilitarian motorcycle garment and turned
Speaker 1: to fashion piece by kind of making them out of
Speaker 1: softer lambskin leathers, so that was kind of clear that
Speaker 1: the person was wearing it for stala and not for
Speaker 1: just like utilitarian purposes. And it was popular among fashion
Speaker 1: conscious men, but it was especially popular among women who
Speaker 1: are seeking an alternative to a tailor jacket.
Speaker 2: And one of the.
Speaker 1: Interesting things is that for the period of I want
Speaker 1: to say, like maybe two thousand and fourteen, twenty fifteen
Speaker 1: to maybe about twenty nineteen twenty twenty, figures like AOC
Speaker 1: Cindy McCain, multiple CEOs that are the CEO of if
Speaker 1: I remember correctly, Hewlett Packard, I think maybe one of
Speaker 1: the American car companies, all of them start to wear
Speaker 1: double riders in somewhat like professional settings, like when they're
Speaker 1: doing television interviews. I think AOC may have even warned
Speaker 1: a double rider into congress and it was considered a
Speaker 1: form of professional dress. And I think it's interesting when
Speaker 1: I see Jensen wearing a leather jacket in this manner,
Speaker 1: that communicates not It doesn't communicate dangerous rebel. It communicates professionalism,
Speaker 1: put togetherness. I think it's interesting that comes after that
Speaker 1: kind of moment where women made it somewhat normal in
Speaker 1: professional spaces.
Speaker 2: I wonder if puff it's his, it is also the silhouette.
Speaker 2: It's the fact it fits in the same way. Maybe
Speaker 2: you're the expert here, but in the same way. You
Speaker 2: say that kind of suits give you an air of respectability,
Speaker 2: in part because they usually the fit is quite good,
Speaker 2: the silhouette's good. Maybe it's something like that, because he
Speaker 2: looks well put together. He doesn't look like he just
Speaker 2: got off a bike, right, right, right.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, No, I think he looks great. He's of
Speaker 1: all of the tech people, high profile tech people that
Speaker 1: have tried to improve the look, I think he's the
Speaker 1: most successful. The other one that comes to mind is
Speaker 1: I'm probably going to Butcher's name, and I apologize if
Speaker 1: he happens to be listening. But Adam OSERI I believe
Speaker 1: he's the president of Instagram. He has He has an
Speaker 1: Instagram account under his last name of Sari, and you
Speaker 1: can see many of his looks there. His looks are
Speaker 1: a lot more They're less edgy, a little bit more
Speaker 1: kind of I don't want to call them basic, but
Speaker 1: they are. I think they're more approachable for many guys.
Speaker 1: Instead of like a basic button up shirt, he'll wear
Speaker 1: a camp collar instead of like the pollos that you
Speaker 1: see at Lacoste. He wears Polos with a skipper collar,
Speaker 1: which is I think a little bit more of a
Speaker 1: stylish collar. He often layers with the jacket. He also,
Speaker 1: like Mark Zuckerberg, wears a gold chain and all of
Speaker 1: these kind of touches I think make him look a
Speaker 1: little bit better than most tech figures.
Speaker 2: So something you said on Twitter maybe a month ago,
Speaker 2: maybe I'm butchering the timeline here is that men kind
Speaker 2: of get trapped in these tropes and they don't do
Speaker 2: more fun things like jewelry. What are some other fun
Speaker 2: things that men can actually do and bring into their wardrobe.
Speaker 1: Well, I always tell you guys to start first with
Speaker 1: thinking of fashion as social language, so don't think of
Speaker 1: it as just a random creative expression. So you know
Speaker 1: Jensen Huong, for example, we've been talking about him during
Speaker 1: this podcast, whereas you know these black biker style leather jackets,
Speaker 1: black t shirt and black jeans, often black boots, So
Speaker 1: it would be it would ruin the look if all
Speaker 1: of a sudden he tied like a colorful I don't know,
Speaker 1: a colorful neck tie around his belt loops, you know,
Speaker 1: like that would just be right look, It would ruin
Speaker 1: the look. I would say for many guys, start thinking
Speaker 1: about fashion and social language in that sense, think of
Speaker 1: the different kind of forms of forms that that language
Speaker 1: can take. So you know, you have to find an
Speaker 1: aesthetic that speaks to you that could be like punk, skate,
Speaker 1: work wear, prep, whatever, haven't guard, whatever it may be,
Speaker 1: and then dress with that type of intentionality. Dress with
Speaker 1: that aesthetic in mind. Don't be afraid of I think
Speaker 1: when guys are shopping for a jacket, they they go
Speaker 1: wrong when they shop for the blandest form of a jacket,
Speaker 1: And what they should do is just think of the
Speaker 1: look that they want to create. And find the jacket
Speaker 1: that communicates that look. So it's it's more about thinking
Speaker 1: of an outfit the way that you would think about
Speaker 1: how to write a sentence, and less about like throwing
Speaker 1: paint on canvas, for example. Think of the sentence that
Speaker 1: you want to write, and then find ways to buy
Speaker 1: clothes and create outfits that essentially communicate something as a
Speaker 1: sentence would.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess express meaning that you want to
Speaker 2: just visually like almost like a costume, but not not
Speaker 2: exactly like you're pretending to be something. Yeah, And I think.
Speaker 1: That's fine to where things that you know allow you
Speaker 1: to explore different facets of your identity. I think as
Speaker 1: a as a general matter, most guys can benefit from
Speaker 1: wearing a layering piece that usually improves a look.
Speaker 2: I would not buy just just real basic What do
Speaker 2: you mean by a layering piece?
Speaker 1: So if you think of a guy in chinos and
Speaker 1: a T shirt or a button up shirt and sneakers,
Speaker 1: you know, even if it fits well, it's kind of
Speaker 1: a basic locus. There's not going to be a lot
Speaker 1: going on, so he would look a lot better usually
Speaker 1: if he has a finishing layer. That could be like
Speaker 1: when you look at Adamos series Instagram. That can be
Speaker 1: anything from like a chunky textured cardigan to a cool jacket.
Speaker 1: Sometimes when it's too hot to wear a layering piece,
Speaker 1: you can do it with very lightweight layers. So in
Speaker 1: the summertime, or if you happen to live in a
Speaker 1: climate that's very warm, you can do a layering piece
Speaker 1: just by wearing T shirts and then layering a short sleeve,
Speaker 1: open kind of shirt. Or it could be a shambray
Speaker 1: shirt like a work shirt. You could even do a
Speaker 1: kind of like reverse layer. So for example, if you
Speaker 1: imagine a Western denim button up shirt and a pair
Speaker 1: of jeans, that looks fine. But then if you want
Speaker 1: to create a more layered look unbuttoned, a few buttons
Speaker 1: on the Western button up shirt they're in a rib
Speaker 1: tank and then possibly even a gold chain and that
Speaker 1: will look better. I think when you create these layers,
Speaker 1: create a little bit more visual interest that helps. Instead
Speaker 1: of wearing you know, Plaine Smooth Merino v Next and
Speaker 1: Crew Next sweaters that you find at the mall, get
Speaker 1: a textured sweater, so like a rib sweater or a
Speaker 1: Shetland sweater or anything with a bit of texture on it.
Speaker 1: When you again going back to Adam Mosteria, when you
Speaker 1: go to Instagram and you look at sweaters, they're often
Speaker 1: they often have a bit of texture. Anything to add
Speaker 1: those elements, a bit of texturing, a bit of layering,
Speaker 1: I think will help an outfit.
Speaker 2: That's and I think a little bit of it is
Speaker 2: kind of relaxing. Also just accepting that, like people get
Speaker 2: the people can do whatever they want. It's their own thing,
Speaker 2: and that there is no there is only you. And
Speaker 2: but the one question that I always come back to
Speaker 2: with shopping in general is how, like what is the thing?
Speaker 2: How do you even start finding clothes that actually fit?
Speaker 2: Like all their stores you recommend that have people that
Speaker 2: will help, like Nordstrom, I know has some. It's just
Speaker 2: that I know most people myself included listening to this
Speaker 2: probably can't afford like a custom leather jacket for example.
Speaker 1: Right again, it really comes back to the look that
Speaker 1: you want to create. If you decide if you're I
Speaker 1: would start collecting photos of esthetics that you like, and
Speaker 1: over time themes will emerge. And let's say, if for example,
Speaker 1: you prefer a very kind of like preppy look, then
Speaker 1: maybe you go to j Crue. If you have a
Speaker 1: little bit more money to spend. Maybe you do Todd Snyder,
Speaker 1: although they're not really preppy, they're preppy adjusting it. I
Speaker 1: suppose I guess Americana the vaguest term I can give fit.
Speaker 1: But let's say you want a little bit more of
Speaker 1: a rugged biker look, then maybe you go to Self Edge.
Speaker 1: If you want a very minimalist look, maybe you look
Speaker 1: at Lamaire and you know there are going to be
Speaker 1: kind of more affordable. Some listeners are going to look
Speaker 1: up Lamire and be like, this guy really recommended a
Speaker 1: shop that tells, you know, like six hundred dollars pants.
Speaker 1: But if you can't afford Lamire, then you can go
Speaker 1: to a store named costs CS and they have closed
Speaker 1: that are like Lamaire. Or you could look at Lamaire's
Speaker 1: collaboration with Uniclo and they have a line called you
Speaker 1: Just Simply You, and that will have many of Lamaire's shapes,
Speaker 1: but in more not only affordable prices, but more affordable
Speaker 1: material so that you're not paying for like a silk
Speaker 1: shirt for example. And yeah, I think you start with
Speaker 1: the aesthetic that you want to create and then find
Speaker 1: stores that specialize in that look. And one way is
Speaker 1: if you find a store or brand that you really like,
Speaker 1: go to their Instagram account, click the tag section, and
Speaker 1: then you'll see a bunch of people who are posting
Speaker 1: photos of outfits with those garments. Then you can not
Speaker 1: only follow the people that are stylish that you would
Speaker 1: like to kind of emulate, but you can also look
Speaker 1: at the other brands that they're wearing. So let's say
Speaker 1: you find that you really like prep and you discover
Speaker 1: a store called Sidmashburn, which is really good for that look,
Speaker 1: and you go to Sidmashin's Instagram and you click the
Speaker 1: tag section. You see all these people wearing Sidmashburn stylish ways,
Speaker 1: and you click their photos and you find out, oh,
Speaker 1: I can also check out I don't know mercer for
Speaker 1: button down shirts and Ratio clothing for you know, chinos
Speaker 1: and other types of button ups. That's a way that
Speaker 1: you can essentially discover new brands and then go deeper
Speaker 1: in the wrap. You know, on those pages, you can
Speaker 1: colick the tag seession, you start following certain accounts, you
Speaker 1: learn about certain brands, and you start saving photos. You
Speaker 1: can either bookmark them in Instagram or you can save
Speaker 1: them on your phone. Or your computer or whatever. And
Speaker 1: I think over time you just start refining your tape
Speaker 1: and figuring out what works for you. It obviously helps
Speaker 1: if you can if you're lucky enough, This does not
Speaker 1: always work, but if you can find people online that
Speaker 1: are built similar to you, So if you're a heavier guy,
Speaker 1: it certainly helps to find if you can find guys
Speaker 1: that are built like you on Instagram, because then you
Speaker 1: can see what brands they're buying. Yeah, so I would
Speaker 1: start there. I would start thinking about fashion and social language.
Speaker 1: Look up brands, look up those accounts, find stylish people,
Speaker 1: follow them, save photos, and then over time you'll figure
Speaker 1: out which toures to to check out.
Speaker 2: And now the final question, how do you go and
Speaker 2: buy a leather jacket? Where would you start? If you
Speaker 2: want to be like Jensen? Is this? Can I get?
Speaker 1: Can I get deep in the in the in the absolutely?
Speaker 1: Okay if you're I'm very excited that you asked this question.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would.
Speaker 1: Say, first and foremost, you have to understand that leather
Speaker 1: is just a material. It's like wool, like cotton. So
Speaker 1: it's sort of like when someone asks how do I
Speaker 1: buy a leather jacket? That's as vegue as asking how
Speaker 1: do I buy a wool jacket a cotton jacket? The
Speaker 1: first question is always right, what kind of style? What
Speaker 1: kind of aesthetic do you want to do? And let's
Speaker 1: say the person is, you know, they fancy themselves as
Speaker 1: a real rugged, tough guy, you know, works with their hands,
Speaker 1: loves I don't know, fixing motorcycles or whatever. Well, then
Speaker 1: probably for you, I would recommend a tougher leather jacket,
Speaker 1: maybe in a motorcycle style, so that would tend to
Speaker 1: be materials like coat skin, cowhide. Those types of jackets
Speaker 1: will look heavier and more like armor, for example. And
Speaker 1: if someone was searching for that, I'd recommend them to
Speaker 1: self Edge, Standard and Strange probably carry some leather jackets.
Speaker 1: I would recommend they check out Shots, which is a
Speaker 1: classic leather jacket maker, Lewis Leathers, Snake Oil Provisions. All
Speaker 1: of those shops have those styles. And then additionally they
Speaker 1: have the types of clothes that you can wear with
Speaker 1: that leather jacket. So they'll have the right flannel shirts
Speaker 1: and the right jeans and the right boots. You don't
Speaker 1: have to buy the entire look from one store, but
Speaker 1: you know, when you go in that store and you
Speaker 1: figure like, oh, this is the way I put together
Speaker 1: that look. Then, but you know, the flannel shirts don't
Speaker 1: fit me. You can look somewhere else for shirts that
Speaker 1: have those qualities. But let's say you're not that type
Speaker 1: of guy and you think of yourself as kind of
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like a like the type of
Speaker 1: guy that visits wine bars, right, and you you love
Speaker 1: listening to, like I don't know, classical music or whatever,
Speaker 1: and you and you you think you look at brands
Speaker 1: like Laura Piano and you think that's your lifestyle. Well,
Speaker 1: then you probably want a leather jacket that's made out
Speaker 1: of softer materials, not that kind of like tough, rugged
Speaker 1: armor like material So you're going to be looking at,
Speaker 1: for example, like Lambskin, and for that I would check
Speaker 1: out Valstar, which is an Italian brand. They do an
Speaker 1: A one bomber that's very quote unquote cityfied out of
Speaker 1: softer materials. That type of jacket goes really well with
Speaker 1: Taylor trousers, like dress shirts, Shetland sweaters, chuck of boots,
Speaker 1: things like that. Who else does leather jackets like that?
Speaker 1: I assume mister Porter's in house line mister P is
Speaker 1: kind of they do these kind of like afford and
Speaker 1: I wouldn't call them affordable, but they're more affordable versions
Speaker 1: of the designer lines that they sell, and mister P
Speaker 1: will probably have designs like that. Let's say you are
Speaker 1: you don't think of yourself as either a wine bar guy,
Speaker 1: and you don't think of yourself as like the rugged
Speaker 1: motorcycle guy. You think of yourself as just kind of
Speaker 1: like a normal dad. You know, You're just like a
Speaker 1: normal dude. You don't have these strong associations. Well, then
Speaker 1: I would maybe check out, you know, instead of like
Speaker 1: a double rider, which I like, but you know, double
Speaker 1: rider has loaded with a little bit more meaning. So
Speaker 1: instead of a double Rider, then maybe you can look
Speaker 1: at bomber jackets. So either an A one bomber or
Speaker 1: an A two bomber, and those are you know, those
Speaker 1: are a little bit more neutral. I think in terms
Speaker 1: of styling, I would look at buzz Rickson does some
Speaker 1: repo preprom bombers that people could check out. Double RL
Speaker 1: probably has some reprom bombers. You can also just go vintage,
Speaker 1: go to a vintage shop check out like a g
Speaker 1: one Bomber for example, and a one and a two
Speaker 1: is a little bit like it's very very dad, but
Speaker 1: a G one has a furry caller essentially that I
Speaker 1: think looks a little bit more charming. And you know,
Speaker 1: you could wear that with like sweatshirt jeans, and it's
Speaker 1: not as if you're a guy that does not identify
Speaker 1: as wine bar or motorcycle jacket or motorcycle dude, then
Speaker 1: a bomber jacket might be your thing.
Speaker 2: Derek, thank you so much for joining me today. This
Speaker 2: has been so wonderful. Where can people find you?
Speaker 1: They can find me on Twitter at the handle die Workwear,
Speaker 1: and then also write on my own blog, which is
Speaker 1: dieworkware dot com, and also do a lot of writing
Speaker 1: for a website called put this on, which you can
Speaker 1: go to put this on dot com. That's where most
Speaker 1: of my service writing is. And if they go there
Speaker 1: they click the start here button, they can look at
Speaker 1: like a whole bunch of articles that can get them
Speaker 1: started to trust them better.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and everyone, thank you for listening.
Speaker 2: And then you're gonna complain that you're gonna hear me
Speaker 2: say thank you for listening again, but that's your problem.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: On Thank you for listening to Better Offline.
Speaker 2: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song
Speaker 2: is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music
Speaker 2: and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T
Speaker 2: T O S O W s ki dot com. You
Speaker 2: can email me at easy at Better offline dot com
Speaker 2: or visit better Offline dot com to find more podcast
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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a
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