1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Better Offline, iHeartRadio's premium tech podcast. 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 2: They're very serious one too. What and after earnings failed 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 2: to reassure investors about their concerns around general if AI's 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: return on investment, Nvidious stock has suffered a record two 6 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 2: hundred and seventy nine billion dollar loss in one day's trading. 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 2: It's truly truly crazy. And today we're talking about the 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 2: most important story in Nvidia, which is of course chief 9 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: executive Jensen Wang and his wonderful swag. He this man 10 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: knows how to dress, which can be rare in the 11 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 2: tech industry. But I've brought in mementswear expert Derek Guy 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: to discuss it. Derek, thank you so much for joining me. 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: So Jensen looks good, But how would you describe his general. 15 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny for a guy who is essentially 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: ushering in what could be transformative change in the economy, 17 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: possibly having effects in politics. You know, many fear that 18 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: this is going to spark off a wave of unemployment 19 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: and kind of a shift of growing inequality in the 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: United States. He kind of dresses like an evil character. 21 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: I think he's very stylish, But he kind of dresses 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: a bit like an evil character because he does these 23 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: kind of all black outfits with these most of them 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: look like to be cowhide or look like cowhide, possibly 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: go hide leather jackets, sometimes exotic leather jackets. But it's 26 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: always this kind of very sleek, all black look that 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, you generally kind of associate with kind of 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: ominous evilness. 29 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I always thought it was kind of more 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: of a biker look. But what is he do you 31 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: think even going for? Here? Is it? Do you think 32 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: he's going for evil or is he just trying to 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: be a certain kind of cool. No. 34 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: I think he's probably aiming to be a certain kind 35 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: of coal, a biker kind of edgy character, and I 36 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: think he pulls it off well. I think he's actually 37 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: one of the few. I think there's a low bar 38 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: for tech guys, but he actually, I think, clears the 39 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: bar to be a pretty stylish figure. 40 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: So tell me about these jackets. Have you looked into 41 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: what kinds that? I know you've talked about materials, But 42 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: what is it about these cuts exactly? And these do 43 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: you know the brands at all? 44 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: I don't know the brands. I do think, I suspect 45 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: that they're custom made for him. They fall very well 46 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: on him. So everything about a jacket, whether it's a 47 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: tailor jacket or a parker or a leather jacket, everything 48 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: hangs from the shoulders, and if the shoulders are not 49 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: cut right, then it's just the jacket's not gonna fit well. 50 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: And his jackets fit very well in that Essentially he 51 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: gets a very nice kind of upside down vs for 52 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: the zippers, which demonstrates that the shoulders fit well, and 53 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: the cut is done intentionally to create that kind of 54 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: a little bit more angular look. Some of his jackets, 55 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: I believe from memory, have what's called a long front balance. 56 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: So when you're looking at a jacket from the side, 57 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: it's always fine for the front ham the front of 58 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: the hem to be lower or even with the back, 59 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: but you never want the front of the jacket to 60 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: be higher than the back. Generally speaking, I actually can't 61 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: think of many exceptions to this rule. But his jackets 62 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: are cut such that he gets very very on some 63 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: of the jackets, not all of them. On some of 64 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: the jackets he gets very low front balance, and it 65 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: looks very stylish that way. It's just a little bit 66 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: more of a stylized look. It's clearly I think he 67 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: hired somebody to style him. His suits generally also fit 68 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: very well, and my guess is that he just doesn't 69 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: want to deal with different combination of outfits all the time, 70 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: and this allows him to stick with a singular look 71 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: and look pretty good in public life. 72 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it kind of feels like an upgrade from Zuckerberg's 73 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: whole whole hoodie situation. And I think a lot of people, 74 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 2: by the way, none of this podcast is an ethical 75 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 2: evaluation of these people. This is this their take. But Zuckerberg, 76 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: for example, was doing it very clearly because it was easy, 77 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: and I think people people think people underplay how much 78 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: of that goes into the fashion of these tech entrepreneurs. 79 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's interesting to couch this in the 80 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: history of kind of the impact the tech industry has 81 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: had on fashion, so or men's fashion specifically. I mean, 82 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: if you think of basically post war era in the 83 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: United States, the suit has been kind of declining since 84 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and seventies, the suit became too tied 85 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: with the establishment, and after kind of student war protests, 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: freedom movements, the Watergate scandal. People really did not want 87 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: to be associated with the establishment. So after the Second 88 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: World War, slowly people started to shed the suit and 89 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: started to take on different types of casual, often casual 90 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: that represented the working class. But I think there was 91 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: a major shift starting in the nineties after the tech 92 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: boom and the rise of Silicon Valley kind of billionaires. Essentially, 93 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't just that the suit was no longer desirable. 94 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: It's that another form of fashion became very desirable, and 95 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: that fashion was the kind of like hoodie gens uniform 96 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: that Mark Zuckerberg specifically ushered in. And it was desirable 97 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: in the sense that it signaled a certain kind of 98 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: new meritocracy to say that we don't que to the 99 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: kind of traditionalism of industries back East. We're in California, 100 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: shaking up the economy, and the only thing that matters 101 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: is your skills. You know. SBF basically adopted this kind 102 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: of ethos. He looked pretty, you know, he dressed he 103 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: did not dress very well, And I think part of 104 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: that was this act to say, I am so in 105 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: the world of intellectual thought and coding, and I only 106 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: care about meritocracy that I can't spare a single thought 107 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: to how I dress. But in reality, this uniform, this 108 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: hoodie and Jean's uniform, especially in the tech industry, became 109 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: its own kind of norm, such that it wasn't just 110 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: that people didn't care about fashion. It's that dressing a 111 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 1: certain way signal that you were part of the group, 112 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: part of the crowd. And now we see that the 113 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: original people who ushered in that ethos are actually taking 114 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to say, you know, they're not. Mark 115 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg is not transforming his look, but at least since 116 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: the fall of last year, he certainly has taken a 117 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: slightly larger in and his luck, and he's transforming his 118 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: look a little bit. He's looking a little bit more stylish, 119 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: and I think that that signals a naturally significant change 120 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: in how the tech industry thinks about fashion, and then 121 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: also how that is impacting the larger cultural space. 122 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't really think about it. But Zuckerberg, he 123 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,239 Speaker 2: he is kind of he's dressing like a man dressed 124 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: up as a nineties rapper at times, but he seems 125 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 2: to be paying more attention to the quality of clothes, 126 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: at least like it looked what he is wearing looks 127 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: nicer hangs on him better versus feeling like And I 128 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: admit before this goal, I didn't really think about how 129 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 2: performative the I'm not really trying look is. But it 130 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: seems like he's trying now, and I wonder if that 131 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: is trying to sigle a shift in the industry at 132 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: least with him. 133 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not really quite sure what is his deal. 134 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: There have been multiple articles written about his style. For 135 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: a while, it was rumored that all of his T 136 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: shirts were his gray T shirts were from Kuchinelli and 137 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: they bought them from Milk's Bashford in San Francisco. I 138 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: can't remember the price of the T shirts, but it 139 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: was rumored that he was spending something like a thousand 140 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: or two thousand dollars on hoodies and like seven hundred 141 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: dollars on T shirts. That was published again somewhere, and 142 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: I want to say it was maybe the cut, but 143 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: afterwards Mark Coodie's I'm sorry, Mark Coody. Mark Zuckerberg's team 144 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: reached out to the writer to clarify to say that 145 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: he does not, in fact buy all of his hoodies 146 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: from books Bashford, and that he did buy one once 147 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,599 Speaker 1: but then just never did again, but he listed the 148 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: names of where he gets his clothing, and they were 149 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: pretty kind of I would say, in the know brands, 150 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: not super fashionable, but relatively in the know. So he 151 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: named Todd Snyder, Buck Mason, John Elliott, which is very 152 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: in the know. I think some other brands that escape 153 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: escape me at the moment, but these these brands essentially 154 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: are very rarely sold in just one store, So I 155 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: thought he was working with a stylist. His team denies 156 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: that he works with a stylist, but the difference of 157 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: his clothes is that they are a little bit more 158 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: in conversation with what's trending at the moment. So if 159 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: you actually go to his Instagram page, I think his 160 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: Instagram handle is Zuck, you'll see that starting in I 161 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: will say, like October or November of last year, his 162 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: wardrobe dramatically changed. So before he wore pretty kind of 163 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: standard T shirts, jeans, sometimes a sweatshirt, and the cut 164 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: was pretty basic. The shoulders seems sat on his shoulder bone, 165 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, like slim straight jeans. It's so very very 166 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: basic kind of look. But then starting in October and November, 167 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: you start to see the cuts change. He wore a 168 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: drop shoulder scene. When he wore long sleeves, the sleeves 169 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: would kind of stack a little bit around his wrist. 170 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: What else was he wearing? He was obviously he adopted 171 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: a gold chain, which was recently written about, I think 172 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: in the Wall Street Journal and even Slate, And I 173 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: think it just demonstrates a little bit more attention paid 174 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: to the idea of a silhouette. And yeah, I think 175 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: he looks better for it. 176 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: So for our listeners and also me, define exactly what 177 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: a silhouette is. When you think of one as a 178 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 2: person buying clothes. 179 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: So there are two aspects when you're buying clothes. There's 180 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: fit and there's silhouette. Fit is I think a very 181 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: you should think of it in very narrow terms. So 182 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: to give an example, when you are, let's say, buying 183 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: a button up shirt, if you can't button up the shirt, 184 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. If you're buying a suit jacket and 185 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: the collar lists from your neck even when you're not moving, 186 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. If you are buying pants and you 187 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: can't button the pants, they don't fit. Silhouette is slightly different. 188 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: Silhouette is the idea that if you take away all 189 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: of the details in the outfit and you were just 190 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: to think of the outfit in terms of shapes. Think 191 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: of it as an outline that is basically the silhouette 192 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: of the garment. So in that sense, sometimes you know, 193 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: when people see like pants that are very crop they say, oh, well, 194 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: those don't fit. Not necessarily. Sometimes pants are designed to 195 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: be very cropped, and that's part of the silhouette. Sometimes 196 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: sleeves are meant to stack around the on the wrist. 197 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: It's just part of the look when you say, what 198 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 2: do you mean? Sorry, So if you're. 199 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: Wearing a very long sleeve shirt, for example, if you 200 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: if you go to a bespoke tailor to give an example, 201 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: and you're just to get a basic shirt made, they 202 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: would design the shirt in such a way that the 203 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: cuffs stay stationary on your wrists even when you move 204 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: your arms. So that means that the sleeve length is 205 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: a little bit longer than your actual arm. Otherwise, when 206 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: you move your arms, the cuffs would ride up on you. However, 207 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: some designers such as John Elliott I'm trying to think 208 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: of some other bahrain as another designer that does this, 209 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: probably rick Ohens assume because he does these very long 210 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: drap silhouettes. The sleeve is so long that essentially you 211 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: get a lot of stacking. The material ends up stacking 212 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: around your wrist and it's just part of the look. 213 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be that close fit. Only in 214 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: one singular way, silhoette allows you to think of an 215 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: outfit in terms of shapes and take a little bit 216 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: more creativity. 217 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: When you think about getting creative with outfits, I feel 218 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 2: like you don't think of Silicon Valley. It feels that 219 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: while there is some of the performative, I'm just a 220 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: regular guy thing. I'm focused on my merit. I also 221 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: feel like, especially in such a male dominated culture and 222 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: especially now in the Valley, there's a lot of this 223 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: masculine kind of Oh, you want to be a big, 224 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: tough guy, and fashion is not for tough guys, and 225 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: I feel like it deprives them of something, It deprives 226 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 2: them as something they could really enjoy, Like, there are 227 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: so many parts of the Valley that enjoy I don't know, 228 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: building composable software, putting together different pieces to make the 229 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: architecture work. Yeah, the idea of doing so esthetically is 230 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: somehow feminine. It just feels like a loss for them. 231 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I am a strong believer that you don't have 232 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: to pay attention to clothes or I think people are 233 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,719 Speaker 1: generally aware of clothes to some degree, I think, more 234 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: than they. 235 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: Like to wry am. 236 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: But I don't think anyone has to take a great 237 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: interest in their wardrobe. And I'm very strong believer that 238 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: you should never judge a person's deeper and more important 239 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: inner qualities based on their dress. But I do think 240 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: that if you I think of dress as sort of 241 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: like eating, Like I have to eat to survive, and 242 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: I have to dress to go outside. And if I 243 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: have to do these things, you know, I think it's 244 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: nicer to eat a tasty meal versus boiled potatoes. And 245 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: I think it's nicer to wear something that makes me 246 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: feel good versus something that makes me feel bad, something 247 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: that makes me feel happy versus something that adds nothing 248 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: to my life. And buying those items, you know, if 249 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: you're like really deep into it, like it's you know, 250 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: like basically a core part of my life, then certainly 251 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: can take a lot of time. But it doesn't have 252 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: to take a lot of your time. And if you 253 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: just buy things that you like and make you happy. 254 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: I think that just adds something to the beginning of 255 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: your day. 256 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's something to enjoy about your persona, and 257 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 2: a lot of these people are quite focused on their 258 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: identity as well. And but one of the reasons I 259 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: had you on here is I've got into clothes recently. 260 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 2: It's crazy way to word it, but the idea of 261 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: being able to dress yourself in a way that makes 262 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: you feel good about yourself is fun and I think 263 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: that societally, especially well definitely with men, there's this push 264 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: away from it. But it also I'm glad you mentioned 265 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: what you did there. It isn't about necessarily putting a 266 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: ton of attention in, it's feeling good about what you're wearing. 267 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: The only time I've really thought of this happening in 268 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: the valley at scale. Are you familiar with American giant hoodies. Yeah, 269 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: So there was this weird, long period like a year 270 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: or two when everyone wanted one. They were like actually 271 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 2: quite hard to get there with these very heavy hoodies. 272 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: And that was the only time I think there's been 273 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: like a known aesthetic discussion in the valley. And it's 274 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: so it's something I think everyone could enjoy. 275 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a hoodie is a perfect example. I 276 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: like Camber. Camber. American John also makes good hoodies. I'm 277 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: not knocking them. Camber is another one that makes these 278 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: very stout hoodies. 279 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 280 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: I like hoodies, and I think when you put I 281 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: dislike really thin hoodies that kind of cling to your body, 282 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: and I like a thicker, kind of rumor hoodie. And 283 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: that's just personal preference. If someone likes the thinner hoodies, 284 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: that's fine too. I just think when you are paying 285 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: attention to these things, you know, I don't know, when 286 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: you walk around, you feel a little bit better when 287 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: you see yourself in the mirror. You like how you look, 288 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: You feel a little bit more confident. I think of 289 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: it just like it's just like cooking. You know, you 290 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: could eat boiled potatoes, but you know you could also 291 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: throw some seasoning in and it will taste better. 292 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: So yeah, So actually that this is a good question. 293 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: How can you dress like a hoodie, for example, and 294 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 2: look fashionable and field well, not fashionable is probably the 295 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: wrong word. What's a good fun way to dress with 296 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: a hoodie, I guess is what I'm asking. 297 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: So I'm I sort of feel that when we talk 298 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: about aesthetics. In this sense, there is one aesthetic that 299 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: most people agree looks good, and that tends to be 300 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: aesthetics that are part of the hedgemonic culture. So the suit, 301 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: for example, most people when they see a man in 302 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: the suit, they if the suit is assuming, it's cut well, 303 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: and it you know, fits well in all of these things, 304 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: they usually say, oh, that person looks good, right, And 305 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: it's sort of like how received pronunciation. Even if you 306 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: dislike the hegemonic kind of role that it plays, everyone 307 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: recognizes that, like, oh yeah, that's like the hegemonic you know, 308 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: way of speaking, and it sounds good. Once you break 309 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: out of whatever is hegemonic, then you get into all 310 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: these niche territories and there are gonna be a lot 311 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: of people that don't like how something sounds or how 312 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: something looks. And that's the same with you know, pronunciations 313 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: of regional kind of dialects. So when I think of hoodies, 314 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: I personally like when a hoodie leans into a very 315 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: classic workwhere look, so that's like raw denim jeans, olive fatigues, 316 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: if you're wearing chinos, then I think it's better if 317 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: it's if it's the kind of like tougher, more rugged 318 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: chino styled after the mid nineteenth century Army chinos that 319 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: were issued to US vets, versus the very kind of 320 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: like business casual look. And then you know, like service boots, 321 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: blundstones for a jacket if it's if the weather allows 322 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: you to wear both a hoodie and a jacket, then 323 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: trucker jackets, bombers, chortcoats, like anything that seems rugged. Double 324 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: knee car heartpants also go really well with hoodies. But 325 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: again recognizing that once you leave the world of hegemonic 326 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: aesthetics and culture and all these representations, there are a 327 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: lot of people who say, oh, well, you know that 328 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: there's a lot of judgments about someone's class and respectability 329 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: based on whether or not they are conforming to these notions, 330 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: which I don't adhere to. But I think aesthetically that 331 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: kind of like rugged working class look with a hoodie looks. 332 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: Really good, and there's nothing about a look like that 333 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: that has to be schlubby, and I think that that's 334 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 2: what people associate with sometimes. 335 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: True, although I don't have a problem with looking schlubby, 336 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: I think you can be schlubby and also be stylish. 337 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 2: There are ways to wear sweatpants school, though I've get 338 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 2: to work them out. And as far as Jensen's look goes, 339 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 2: he mostly just looks like jeans, leather jacket, and black shirt. Right. 340 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a couple of people who have adopted 341 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 1: his look, and you can kind of do easy comparisons 342 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: to see why his works better. So when you take it, 343 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: when you look at Jensen Wong, if you pull up 344 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: photos of him, and you can also compare his look 345 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: to Sequoia partner Sean McGuire. Sean McGuire wears actually pretty 346 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: similar outfits. He wears black leather jackets, black teas, and 347 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: black jeans. But as jackets just don't fit as nicely. 348 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: They're a little bit baggier. They don't have like you know, 349 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: it's fine for a leather jacket to be baggy, but 350 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: his does not look bagging in an intentional, thoughtful way. 351 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: It's just kind of like a limp limp jacket that 352 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: hangs on him. And then when you look at Jensen Wong, 353 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: there are very strong angular lines that just make him 354 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: look better for lack of a better word. And yeah, 355 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: I think Jensen just happens. I assume because of his 356 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: immense wealth. I assume he just you know, hired a 357 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: stylist to help him with this part of his life. 358 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: When you look at early photos of him, he dressed 359 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: as a typical kind of tech nerd, like polo shirts, 360 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: Gino's jeans. It just didn't look very stylish. But in 361 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: this way he looks great. I will say that there 362 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: was a moment, maybe like ten years ago instill somewhat today, 363 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: where you saw a woman in professional spaces ditching Taylor 364 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: jackets meaning sport codes toit jackets, blazers and the like, 365 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: and substituting them for black double riders. And this was 366 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: right around the time that black double riders started to 367 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: become a fashion trend. 368 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: And what is a black double rider? 369 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: A black double rider is, So there are two main 370 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: types of motorcycle jackets. There is a style called the 371 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: cafe racer. That's a single I don't I don't know 372 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: if it's called a single breasted, but you can think 373 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: of it in terms of a single breasted. As the 374 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: zip enclosure goes up and down, the center of the 375 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: body usually has a band caller meant to fit very 376 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: tight on the body. And then the double rider is 377 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: is what you think of when you think of Marlon 378 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: Brando and the Wild One, think of shot perfectos and 379 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: as an asymmetrical zip, and usually a deep pocket on 380 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: one side has lapels. And I would say, like in 381 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen twenty fifteen, when Eddie Slamaine was appointed creative 382 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: director at Saint Laurent's, he and Kanye actually popularized the 383 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: black double writer as a fashion piece. And they made 384 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: it from being strictly a utilitarian motorcycle garment and turned 385 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 1: to fashion piece by kind of making them out of 386 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: softer lambskin leathers, so that was kind of clear that 387 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: the person was wearing it for stala and not for 388 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: just like utilitarian purposes. And it was popular among fashion 389 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: conscious men, but it was especially popular among women who 390 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: are seeking an alternative to a tailor jacket. 391 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 2: And one of the. 392 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: Interesting things is that for the period of I want 393 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: to say, like maybe two thousand and fourteen, twenty fifteen 394 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: to maybe about twenty nineteen twenty twenty, figures like AOC 395 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: Cindy McCain, multiple CEOs that are the CEO of if 396 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, Hewlett Packard, I think maybe one of 397 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: the American car companies, all of them start to wear 398 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: double riders in somewhat like professional settings, like when they're 399 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: doing television interviews. I think AOC may have even warned 400 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,959 Speaker 1: a double rider into congress and it was considered a 401 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: form of professional dress. And I think it's interesting when 402 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: I see Jensen wearing a leather jacket in this manner, 403 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: that communicates not It doesn't communicate dangerous rebel. It communicates professionalism, 404 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: put togetherness. I think it's interesting that comes after that 405 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: kind of moment where women made it somewhat normal in 406 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: professional spaces. 407 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: I wonder if puff it's his, it is also the silhouette. 408 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 2: It's the fact it fits in the same way. Maybe 409 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: you're the expert here, but in the same way. You 410 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: say that kind of suits give you an air of respectability, 411 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 2: in part because they usually the fit is quite good, 412 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 2: the silhouette's good. Maybe it's something like that, because he 413 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: looks well put together. He doesn't look like he just 414 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: got off a bike, right, right, right. 415 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, No, I think he looks great. He's of 416 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 1: all of the tech people, high profile tech people that 417 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: have tried to improve the look, I think he's the 418 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: most successful. The other one that comes to mind is 419 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: I'm probably going to Butcher's name, and I apologize if 420 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: he happens to be listening. But Adam OSERI I believe 421 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: he's the president of Instagram. He has He has an 422 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: Instagram account under his last name of Sari, and you 423 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: can see many of his looks there. His looks are 424 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: a lot more They're less edgy, a little bit more 425 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,239 Speaker 1: kind of I don't want to call them basic, but 426 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: they are. I think they're more approachable for many guys. 427 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: Instead of like a basic button up shirt, he'll wear 428 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: a camp collar instead of like the pollos that you 429 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: see at Lacoste. He wears Polos with a skipper collar, 430 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: which is I think a little bit more of a 431 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: stylish collar. He often layers with the jacket. He also, 432 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: like Mark Zuckerberg, wears a gold chain and all of 433 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: these kind of touches I think make him look a 434 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: little bit better than most tech figures. 435 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 2: So something you said on Twitter maybe a month ago, 436 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: maybe I'm butchering the timeline here is that men kind 437 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 2: of get trapped in these tropes and they don't do 438 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: more fun things like jewelry. What are some other fun 439 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 2: things that men can actually do and bring into their wardrobe. 440 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: Well, I always tell you guys to start first with 441 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: thinking of fashion as social language, so don't think of 442 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: it as just a random creative expression. So you know 443 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: Jensen Huong, for example, we've been talking about him during 444 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: this podcast, whereas you know these black biker style leather jackets, 445 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: black t shirt and black jeans, often black boots, So 446 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: it would be it would ruin the look if all 447 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: of a sudden he tied like a colorful I don't know, 448 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: a colorful neck tie around his belt loops, you know, 449 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: like that would just be right look, It would ruin 450 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: the look. I would say for many guys, start thinking 451 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: about fashion and social language in that sense, think of 452 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: the different kind of forms of forms that that language 453 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 1: can take. So you know, you have to find an 454 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: aesthetic that speaks to you that could be like punk, skate, 455 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: work wear, prep, whatever, haven't guard, whatever it may be, 456 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: and then dress with that type of intentionality. Dress with 457 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,239 Speaker 1: that aesthetic in mind. Don't be afraid of I think 458 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: when guys are shopping for a jacket, they they go 459 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: wrong when they shop for the blandest form of a jacket, 460 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: And what they should do is just think of the 461 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: look that they want to create. And find the jacket 462 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: that communicates that look. So it's it's more about thinking 463 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: of an outfit the way that you would think about 464 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,479 Speaker 1: how to write a sentence, and less about like throwing 465 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: paint on canvas, for example. Think of the sentence that 466 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: you want to write, and then find ways to buy 467 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: clothes and create outfits that essentially communicate something as a 468 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: sentence would. 469 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess express meaning that you want to 470 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: just visually like almost like a costume, but not not 471 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 2: exactly like you're pretending to be something. Yeah, And I think. 472 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: That's fine to where things that you know allow you 473 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: to explore different facets of your identity. I think as 474 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: a as a general matter, most guys can benefit from 475 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: wearing a layering piece that usually improves a look. 476 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 2: I would not buy just just real basic What do 477 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: you mean by a layering piece? 478 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: So if you think of a guy in chinos and 479 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: a T shirt or a button up shirt and sneakers, 480 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: you know, even if it fits well, it's kind of 481 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: a basic locus. There's not going to be a lot 482 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: going on, so he would look a lot better usually 483 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: if he has a finishing layer. That could be like 484 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: when you look at Adamos series Instagram. That can be 485 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: anything from like a chunky textured cardigan to a cool jacket. 486 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes when it's too hot to wear a layering piece, 487 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: you can do it with very lightweight layers. So in 488 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: the summertime, or if you happen to live in a 489 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: climate that's very warm, you can do a layering piece 490 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: just by wearing T shirts and then layering a short sleeve, 491 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: open kind of shirt. Or it could be a shambray 492 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: shirt like a work shirt. You could even do a 493 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: kind of like reverse layer. So for example, if you 494 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: imagine a Western denim button up shirt and a pair 495 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: of jeans, that looks fine. But then if you want 496 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: to create a more layered look unbuttoned, a few buttons 497 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: on the Western button up shirt they're in a rib 498 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: tank and then possibly even a gold chain and that 499 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: will look better. I think when you create these layers, 500 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: create a little bit more visual interest that helps. Instead 501 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: of wearing you know, Plaine Smooth Merino v Next and 502 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: Crew Next sweaters that you find at the mall, get 503 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: a textured sweater, so like a rib sweater or a 504 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: Shetland sweater or anything with a bit of texture on it. 505 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: When you again going back to Adam Mosteria, when you 506 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: go to Instagram and you look at sweaters, they're often 507 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: they often have a bit of texture. Anything to add 508 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: those elements, a bit of texturing, a bit of layering, 509 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: I think will help an outfit. 510 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 2: That's and I think a little bit of it is 511 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: kind of relaxing. Also just accepting that, like people get 512 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 2: the people can do whatever they want. It's their own thing, 513 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: and that there is no there is only you. And 514 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: but the one question that I always come back to 515 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: with shopping in general is how, like what is the thing? 516 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 2: How do you even start finding clothes that actually fit? 517 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: Like all their stores you recommend that have people that 518 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 2: will help, like Nordstrom, I know has some. It's just 519 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: that I know most people myself included listening to this 520 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: probably can't afford like a custom leather jacket for example. 521 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: Right again, it really comes back to the look that 522 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: you want to create. If you decide if you're I 523 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: would start collecting photos of esthetics that you like, and 524 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: over time themes will emerge. And let's say, if for example, 525 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: you prefer a very kind of like preppy look, then 526 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: maybe you go to j Crue. If you have a 527 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: little bit more money to spend. Maybe you do Todd Snyder, 528 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: although they're not really preppy, they're preppy adjusting it. I 529 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: suppose I guess Americana the vaguest term I can give fit. 530 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: But let's say you want a little bit more of 531 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: a rugged biker look, then maybe you go to Self Edge. 532 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: If you want a very minimalist look, maybe you look 533 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: at Lamaire and you know there are going to be 534 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: kind of more affordable. Some listeners are going to look 535 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: up Lamire and be like, this guy really recommended a 536 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: shop that tells, you know, like six hundred dollars pants. 537 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: But if you can't afford Lamire, then you can go 538 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: to a store named costs CS and they have closed 539 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: that are like Lamaire. Or you could look at Lamaire's 540 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: collaboration with Uniclo and they have a line called you 541 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: Just Simply You, and that will have many of Lamaire's shapes, 542 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: but in more not only affordable prices, but more affordable 543 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: material so that you're not paying for like a silk 544 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: shirt for example. And yeah, I think you start with 545 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: the aesthetic that you want to create and then find 546 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: stores that specialize in that look. And one way is 547 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: if you find a store or brand that you really like, 548 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: go to their Instagram account, click the tag section, and 549 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: then you'll see a bunch of people who are posting 550 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 1: photos of outfits with those garments. Then you can not 551 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: only follow the people that are stylish that you would 552 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: like to kind of emulate, but you can also look 553 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: at the other brands that they're wearing. So let's say 554 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: you find that you really like prep and you discover 555 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: a store called Sidmashburn, which is really good for that look, 556 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: and you go to Sidmashin's Instagram and you click the 557 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: tag section. You see all these people wearing Sidmashburn stylish ways, 558 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: and you click their photos and you find out, oh, 559 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: I can also check out I don't know mercer for 560 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: button down shirts and Ratio clothing for you know, chinos 561 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 1: and other types of button ups. That's a way that 562 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: you can essentially discover new brands and then go deeper 563 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: in the wrap. You know, on those pages, you can 564 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: colick the tag seession, you start following certain accounts, you 565 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: learn about certain brands, and you start saving photos. You 566 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: can either bookmark them in Instagram or you can save 567 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: them on your phone. Or your computer or whatever. And 568 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: I think over time you just start refining your tape 569 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: and figuring out what works for you. It obviously helps 570 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: if you can if you're lucky enough, This does not 571 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: always work, but if you can find people online that 572 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: are built similar to you, So if you're a heavier guy, 573 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: it certainly helps to find if you can find guys 574 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: that are built like you on Instagram, because then you 575 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: can see what brands they're buying. Yeah, so I would 576 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: start there. I would start thinking about fashion and social language. 577 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: Look up brands, look up those accounts, find stylish people, 578 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: follow them, save photos, and then over time you'll figure 579 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: out which toures to to check out. 580 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 2: And now the final question, how do you go and 581 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: buy a leather jacket? Where would you start? If you 582 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 2: want to be like Jensen? Is this? Can I get? 583 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: Can I get deep in the in the in the absolutely? 584 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: Okay if you're I'm very excited that you asked this question. 585 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: So yeah, I would. 586 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: Say, first and foremost, you have to understand that leather 587 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: is just a material. It's like wool, like cotton. So 588 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: it's sort of like when someone asks how do I 589 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: buy a leather jacket? That's as vegue as asking how 590 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: do I buy a wool jacket a cotton jacket? The 591 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: first question is always right, what kind of style? What 592 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: kind of aesthetic do you want to do? And let's 593 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: say the person is, you know, they fancy themselves as 594 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: a real rugged, tough guy, you know, works with their hands, 595 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: loves I don't know, fixing motorcycles or whatever. Well, then 596 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: probably for you, I would recommend a tougher leather jacket, 597 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: maybe in a motorcycle style, so that would tend to 598 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: be materials like coat skin, cowhide. Those types of jackets 599 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: will look heavier and more like armor, for example. And 600 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: if someone was searching for that, I'd recommend them to 601 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: self Edge, Standard and Strange probably carry some leather jackets. 602 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: I would recommend they check out Shots, which is a 603 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: classic leather jacket maker, Lewis Leathers, Snake Oil Provisions. All 604 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: of those shops have those styles. And then additionally they 605 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: have the types of clothes that you can wear with 606 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: that leather jacket. So they'll have the right flannel shirts 607 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: and the right jeans and the right boots. You don't 608 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: have to buy the entire look from one store, but 609 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: you know, when you go in that store and you 610 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: figure like, oh, this is the way I put together 611 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 1: that look. Then, but you know, the flannel shirts don't 612 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: fit me. You can look somewhere else for shirts that 613 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: have those qualities. But let's say you're not that type 614 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: of guy and you think of yourself as kind of 615 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like a like the type of 616 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: guy that visits wine bars, right, and you you love 617 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: listening to, like I don't know, classical music or whatever, 618 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: and you and you you think you look at brands 619 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: like Laura Piano and you think that's your lifestyle. Well, 620 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: then you probably want a leather jacket that's made out 621 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: of softer materials, not that kind of like tough, rugged 622 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: armor like material So you're going to be looking at, 623 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: for example, like Lambskin, and for that I would check 624 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: out Valstar, which is an Italian brand. They do an 625 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: A one bomber that's very quote unquote cityfied out of 626 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: softer materials. That type of jacket goes really well with 627 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: Taylor trousers, like dress shirts, Shetland sweaters, chuck of boots, 628 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: things like that. Who else does leather jackets like that? 629 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: I assume mister Porter's in house line mister P is 630 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: kind of they do these kind of like afford and 631 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: I wouldn't call them affordable, but they're more affordable versions 632 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: of the designer lines that they sell, and mister P 633 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: will probably have designs like that. Let's say you are 634 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: you don't think of yourself as either a wine bar guy, 635 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,240 Speaker 1: and you don't think of yourself as like the rugged 636 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: motorcycle guy. You think of yourself as just kind of 637 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: like a normal dad. You know, You're just like a 638 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: normal dude. You don't have these strong associations. Well, then 639 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: I would maybe check out, you know, instead of like 640 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,479 Speaker 1: a double rider, which I like, but you know, double 641 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: rider has loaded with a little bit more meaning. So 642 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: instead of a double Rider, then maybe you can look 643 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: at bomber jackets. So either an A one bomber or 644 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: an A two bomber, and those are you know, those 645 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: are a little bit more neutral. I think in terms 646 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 1: of styling, I would look at buzz Rickson does some 647 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: repo preprom bombers that people could check out. Double RL 648 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: probably has some reprom bombers. You can also just go vintage, 649 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: go to a vintage shop check out like a g 650 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: one Bomber for example, and a one and a two 651 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: is a little bit like it's very very dad, but 652 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: a G one has a furry caller essentially that I 653 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: think looks a little bit more charming. And you know, 654 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: you could wear that with like sweatshirt jeans, and it's 655 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: not as if you're a guy that does not identify 656 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: as wine bar or motorcycle jacket or motorcycle dude, then 657 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: a bomber jacket might be your thing. 658 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 2: Derek, thank you so much for joining me today. This 659 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 2: has been so wonderful. Where can people find you? 660 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: They can find me on Twitter at the handle die Workwear, 661 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: and then also write on my own blog, which is 662 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: dieworkware dot com, and also do a lot of writing 663 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: for a website called put this on, which you can 664 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: go to put this on dot com. That's where most 665 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: of my service writing is. And if they go there 666 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: they click the start here button, they can look at 667 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: like a whole bunch of articles that can get them 668 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: started to trust them better. 669 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and everyone, thank you for listening. 670 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 2: And then you're gonna complain that you're gonna hear me 671 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: say thank you for listening again, but that's your problem. 672 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. 673 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 3: On Thank you for listening to Better Offline. 674 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 2: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song 675 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 2: is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music 676 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T 677 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 2: T O S O W s ki dot com. You 678 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 2: can email me at easy at Better offline dot com 679 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 2: or visit better Offline dot com to find more podcast 680 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 2: links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend 681 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: you go to chat dot Where's youreaed dot at to 682 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 2: visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline 683 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 2: to check out our reddit. 684 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a 685 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 3: production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, 686 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 3: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us 687 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 3: out on the iHeartRadio app 688 00:38:39,400 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.