1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: On February eleventh, twenty ten, a baby girl was born 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: to unwed parents, Lourie Johnson and Ronnie Miller in Rockford, Illinois, 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: but her parents' relationship gradually became contentious, which only worsened 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: during the custody battle. During a heated exchange on July twelfth, 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, Ronnie threatened to sue for full custody. A 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: few days later, he was accused of sexually assaulting their 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: daughter in a video statement made with Child Protective Services. 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: The daughter appeared to have been coached into making the 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: accusation on the record, an accusation that she repeatedly recanted 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: and never again affirmed. Yet the state was able to 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: find a nurse who claimed that the daughter's medical history 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: was suspicious for sexual abuse, and that was enough for 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: a jury to send Ronnie away for twenty long years. 14 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to ronful conviction, where 15 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: we have a case where it appears that false accusations 16 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: were used to weaponize our courts and child Protective services 17 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: to settle a custody battle and ultimately victimized the child 18 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: whom they purported to protect, as it seems that she 19 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: was used against her own will to incarcerate her father, 20 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: Ronnie Miller, who's now calling in from an Illinois correctional facility. Ronnie, 21 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're here, but I'm really happy to be 22 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: able to share your story and I appreciate you being here. 23 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: Welcome, Thank you very much. 24 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: And joining him his post conviction attorney, Leonard Goodman. 25 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. 26 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: And later we'll hear from Ronnie's sister, Deborah, But first 27 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: let's hear about what Ronnie's life was like before all 28 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: of this. 29 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 3: I grew up in Rockford, Illinois. Not a good place 30 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 3: growing up, but it became a teenager. 31 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: Who moved out. 32 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 3: I dropped out of school, I got my ended up 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 3: getting my dad, and then kind of just fell into 34 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 3: factory work. Up until this, I actually had a pretty 35 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 3: decent pharmaceutical packaging company. I worked in the warehouse, you know, 36 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 3: I'd been there four years. All the other factories that 37 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: I worked in Rockford were pretty much shitholes, horrid conditions 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 3: and a little bit of money. So this company that 39 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 3: I actually made it into that the work was clean. 40 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 3: You're in a pharmaceutical company, The people were friendly, nice, 41 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 3: you had room for success. It was a pretty good 42 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 3: place to work at on my way to becoming management. 43 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 3: This was from two thousand eleven until twenty fifteen. 44 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: During which time Ronnie was trying to copat his daughter 45 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: with a woman named Laurie Johnson. 46 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: I had known Laurie off and on. We had our 47 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 3: daughter in twenty tens, but in the beginning of the 48 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 3: relationship it wasn't nothing serious. It was just having fun 49 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 3: until she wanted me to move into her place, which 50 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 3: I did. We had been doing good for i'd say 51 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 3: about a whole year before she found out she was pregnant, 52 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 3: and at that time she already had a child before, 53 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 3: so I would say she was questionable about having another. 54 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 3: For me, this would have been my first child, which, yeah, 55 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 3: I was stoked that I was going to be a dad. 56 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 3: I made every doctor's appointment that it was scheduled. I 57 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: remember at one time I found out that my daughter 58 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 3: she could hear me, so I started reading books and 59 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 3: talking and playing music and everything, but a lot of reading. 60 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 3: So you know, during the birth, she came out screaming. 61 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: She screamed, and the nurses got her in her hands 62 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: and everything, and I remember saying to her, it's okay, 63 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: baby girl. Here's daddy, and she immediately knew my voice. 64 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 3: Even the nurse commented was like, oh she knows you. 65 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 3: You know something I'll never forget. 66 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: So while fatherhood seemed to suit Ronnie, he and Laurie 67 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: weren't a natural fit. 68 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 3: We made it like the first when I found out 69 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: she was cheating on me with a another man, and 70 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: we pretty much broke things off. I was out of 71 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 3: the house, but it was a very toxic relationship to 72 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: where I would move out and she would convince me 73 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 3: to come back and all this, oh, let's do it 74 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 3: for the babies. I'd fall for it every time I 75 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 3: wanted my daughter to see us together. My parents were 76 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 3: divorced and I didn't want that for her, So yeah, 77 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 3: of course I kept coming back, even though the way 78 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 3: she treated me was like shit. But when I wasn't 79 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 3: with her, she would hold the child from me. No 80 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 3: you can't see her, No you can't talk to her, 81 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 3: this type of stuff, to where she would use the 82 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: kid as leverage. 83 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 4: My understanding is that if he was not allowed to 84 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 4: see her, he would get a court order so that 85 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 4: the mom's obstruction of his visitation would be put to 86 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 4: a stop by the judge. 87 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: And it appeared that this was a pattern for miss 88 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: Johnson that had been playing out with the father of 89 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: her fifteen year old son, Tristan oh Man. 90 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 3: If you talk to Wayne Gilberto, he'll tell you the 91 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 3: exact same thing. And she had me believing this man 92 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 3: was a heroin addict, the just the worst person imaginable. 93 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 3: She was selling to me, and of course I believed her, 94 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 3: But later on I found out this dude was going 95 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 3: to work wanting to see his kid, wanted to be 96 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: in his kid's life, but because he wouldn't submit to her, 97 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 3: she did the exact same thing with him, use the 98 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 3: kid as leverage. 99 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 4: If you look at the family court records, you'll see 100 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 4: similar accusations made against that father or that other child. 101 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 4: But that child had a history of some mental illness 102 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 4: and was doing things that were frightening. 103 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 3: He threatened to commit suicide, spent like two weeks in 104 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: the side corps getting on this medication. She told me, okay, 105 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 3: he was at one point accused by his father that 106 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 3: he was touching his stepdaughter on like a weekend visit 107 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 3: over there, and she kept it real hush with me, 108 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 3: so I didn't know the exact detailed. I just knew 109 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 3: that he wasn't allowed to go over there because of 110 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 3: these allegations. Okay, and his dad called him a pervert, 111 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 3: and then she went to DCFF trying to say that 112 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 3: Wayne was abusing Driston by accusing him of these things 113 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 3: that were not true. 114 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: It appears that mister Gilberto was interested in protecting his stepdaughters, 115 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: but miss Johnson took that as an opportunity to weaponize 116 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: the Illinois Department of Child and Family Services, or DCFS 117 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: to restrict his access to their son. Meanwhile, Ronnie and 118 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: his sister Deborah began fearing for GM safety. 119 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, so I used to watch GM every day, So 120 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 5: there was things that GM would say to me about 121 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 5: things happening in the household with her brother. There was 122 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 5: one instance where she told me she woke up with 123 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 5: her brother standing over her and she was afraid. And 124 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 5: I told her mom about that and she told me, no, 125 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 5: she's just lying. She's making things up. And I become 126 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 5: concerned and I start telling Ronnie, like some of the 127 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 5: things that GM has been saying to me. 128 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 3: That's why I was concerned about my daughter living over there. 129 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 3: And I confronted Maurie about this. She said oh, no, Tristan, 130 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 3: he wouldn't do that. I said, well, why wouldn't my 131 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 3: daughter be lying about this? I said, I don't feel safe, 132 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: especially him coming out of a psych ward, being doped 133 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 3: up on all this medication, and then all of a sudden, 134 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 3: couple weeks later, you take him off his medication and 135 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 3: now he's acting all fucking weird and shit. 136 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,239 Speaker 5: Then later on we come to find out in court 137 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 5: record Tristan has sexually abused his dad's girlfriend's daughters. But 138 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 5: none of this was ever brought to court. 139 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: Which seems like some really important context, almost as important 140 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: as what happened next. 141 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 3: So I told her I was going to take her 142 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 3: back to court for full custody because I'm concerned about 143 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 3: what's going on here, and I'm going to let the 144 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 3: courts know about his psych ward visits, about all this 145 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: stuff that you say he's not doing but obviously is. 146 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, I threatened to take her back to 147 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: court for full custody. And then I believe that was 148 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 3: on like a Sunday, and here it is Wednesday. Now 149 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 3: I'm being accused of sexually molesting my daughter. 150 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: So it appears that July twelve, twenty fifteen, was the 151 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: Sunday of the argument, and then Ms Johnson called DCFS. 152 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 4: We don't know because we weren't there, but maybe the 153 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 4: mom said the daughter had some itchiness and she asked 154 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 4: her about it and she said, oh, daddy's weird. 155 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: He touches me. 156 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 4: And that was the initial report that was made, and 157 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 4: that report was enough to get in order of protection. 158 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 3: The way I found out was through my sister, because 159 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 3: my sister watched my daughter. They showed up at my 160 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 3: sister's house on Friday. 161 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 5: She came by to pay me for the week before 162 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 5: because heard my brother split paying me, and she made 163 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 5: GM wait outside like Laurie was telling me all these things. 164 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 5: And GM was looking through the screen door and she's like, yeah, yeah, 165 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 5: I got to tell you something. So I come outside 166 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 5: and she runs to the back of my yard and 167 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 5: I have like a trampoline and everything because I have kids, 168 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 5: and she's like, yeah, I got to tell you something. 169 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 5: Daddy touches me. And then she runs off and goes 170 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 5: and jumps on the trampoline like it was nothing, no 171 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 5: big deal. I go to my brother because obviously, if 172 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 5: a child is being hurt, I want to protect that child. 173 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: GM was examined by their pediatrician, doctor Rhodes, who found 174 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: no cause for concern. Meanwhile, Aunt Debbie called the family together. 175 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 5: I instantly called my mom, my brother, and I'm like, look, 176 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 5: this is what's going on. So then Ronnie called Laurie 177 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 5: and got Laurie to come over to my mom's house. 178 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 5: And she's telling everybody it's too late. DCFS is involved. 179 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 5: I've taken her to the doctor. GM. She comes in 180 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 5: the house and she wants to sit with her dad like. 181 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 5: She actually cried because she wanted to stay with all 182 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 5: of us. When Laurie told her it's time to go. 183 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 5: You tell them what you have to tell them, and 184 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 5: let's go. And she was sitting on Ronnie's lap crying 185 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 5: and screaming as Laurie took her to leave. That's actually 186 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 5: the last time Ronnie seen her when GM was sitting 187 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 5: on my brother's lap. And I'm sitting there talking to 188 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 5: her and I'm explaining to her like GM, I'm an adult. 189 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 5: I'm here to protect you. If there's anything going on. 190 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 5: You can share this with Aunt Debbie and I'll make 191 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 5: sure you know I keep you safe. That's what adults 192 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 5: are supposed to do. And then She looked at me 193 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 5: and she goes, so, if that was happening to Abby, 194 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 5: which is my daughter, they're only a few years apart. 195 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 5: She's like, would you do the same thing? And I 196 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 5: told her, I said, Jim, if any child is ever 197 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 5: being hurt, I will always keep them safe. And I 198 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 5: kept telling her, this is very important that you tell 199 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 5: me the truth. And then she changed her whole story, 200 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 5: saying it was a guy at her mom's house, which 201 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 5: was confusing to us. 202 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: MS Johnson had another boyfriend at the time, or perhaps 203 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: GM meant her older half brother Tristan. Either way, two 204 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: weeks later, on August fourth, twenty fifteen, MS Johnson made 205 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: an appointment with DCFS to get the allegation on video. 206 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 4: My understanding is that the child had recanted to the 207 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 4: mom and was telling the mom it never happened, and 208 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 4: that was part of what prompted her to put the 209 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 4: child in front of the video camera to try to 210 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 4: document these stories against Ronnie and put them on film. Literally, 211 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 4: with the mom practically sitting next to her. 212 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 3: In this video interview, she's not supposed to know where 213 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 3: she's going. 214 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 4: Know what was going to be asked, the child starts 215 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 4: making accusations against her dad before she's even asked any 216 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 4: question by the interviewer, suggesting that she had been coached. 217 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 4: Many of the things that she said during the interview 218 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 4: are conceded to be not true and fantastical. She said 219 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 4: that the police came and arrested my dad, but he 220 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 4: got away, who was conceded that no police had come. 221 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 4: She said that her dad had a cast in her 222 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 4: description of the abuse. He never had a cast on 223 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 4: his arm during this period. She said that there was 224 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 4: a dog involved. So all these things were conceded to 225 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 4: be not true. 226 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 3: Everything that video is total lies, except the one that 227 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: they want to believe is that I sexually abused my child. 228 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 4: So yes, she had recanted before she was put in 229 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 4: front of the video camera and after to a therapist, 230 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 4: to the mom, and to the trial prosecutors, saying it's 231 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 4: not true. I was manipulated into saying that. The prosecution 232 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 4: then went out and hired a nurse practitioner who had 233 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 4: taken a course in sexual abuse and somebody that they 234 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 4: had used in the past as a sexual abuse expert, 235 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 4: and this woman examined the child, who was at this 236 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 4: time was five years old, found nothing abnormal and the 237 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 4: prosecution said, well, the child is now saying it never happened, 238 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 4: so we can't go forward with this case unless the 239 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 4: expert will say that there is physical evidence of abuse. 240 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: So no charges were filed, but the order of protection 241 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: remained in place. 242 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 4: The mom went to extraordinary lengths to keep the daughter 243 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 4: away not only from her father, but from his whole family. 244 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 4: It was almost as if the mom was afraid that 245 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 4: people that clearly posed no threat to the child if 246 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 4: they were with her, that the story that the mom 247 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 4: had fabricated would be exposed. 248 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: And by October and November, Ronnie and his family began 249 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: winning at family court, and it appeared that they would 250 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: all be allowed supervised visitation at a DCFS facility called 251 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: Safe Harbor. 252 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 3: The judge said, hey, there's no evidence here. I gotta 253 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 3: let them see the kid. Here's Laurie calling up DCFS 254 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 3: and letting them know that I'm winning in family court 255 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: that they need to do something about it. 256 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 5: I have all those records where DCFS contacted Shannon. Krueger 257 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 5: was like, and it's all in the notes, which is 258 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 5: crazy to me. This is what we need you to say. 259 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 5: Can you say this? And she said yes, I can 260 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 5: say that. Then they told her to contact the prosecutor 261 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,839 Speaker 5: and let them know that she would state that in court. 262 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 4: So the expert then examined the child's medical history and 263 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 4: found that there were some urinary tract infections and some 264 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 4: genital redness and said, yes, I can say conclusively that 265 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 4: is highly suspicious for sexual abuse in a five year 266 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 4: old girl. I think she was four at the time 267 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 4: that she had this redness. 268 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: Previously, the child's preediatrician had attributed these issues to potty training, 269 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: a new bath soap, or a new laundry detergent. Yet 270 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: Krueger's opinion led to Ronnie's arrest in early December. He 271 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: was bonded out his family. Court wins were rolled back, 272 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: but at least his family was granted access to GM. 273 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 3: Their first visit was right after the holidays for my 274 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 3: whole family. I'm talking like eight adults and like twelve 275 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: nieces and nephews. They wanted to give her all of 276 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 3: her presents for Christmas and all that. So they have 277 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: a thing over at my sister's house. 278 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 5: All the girls in the family, my daughter and then 279 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 5: my brother's two daughters and her. They're all pretty close 280 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 5: in age, so just seeing them together, playing with their dolls, 281 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 5: being able to sit with my mom, having all her 282 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 5: grandkids together. 283 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 3: Now, mind you, I can't be around at all. I'm 284 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 3: at a whole nother house with another witness that says 285 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: I was there the whole time, after they dropped her 286 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 3: back off, after she got all of her presents, all 287 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 3: this stuff. Now, this is Lorie. This ain't my daughter. 288 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 3: This is Laurie calling the police saying that my daughter 289 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 3: told her that I talked to her on the phone. 290 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 3: A total fabrication. 291 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: After checking the call logs and speaking with Ronnie's family, 292 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: the police confirmed that the accusation was false, and then 293 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: after the second visitation came another false accusation. 294 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 4: The mom calls Protective Services again and said Ronnie's violating it. 295 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 4: He's using these grandparent visitations to see his daughter and 296 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 4: to sexually abuse her at school. 297 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 5: The DCFS they pulled my daughter in question her for 298 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 5: two hours. They were trying to see if she could 299 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 5: verify if Ronnie was at the visit. 300 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: That was later conceded to be false. 301 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 4: Everyone agreed he never violated the order protection, but it 302 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 4: was enough to end these grandparent visitations. 303 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: Since these two new accusations were provably false. The state 304 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: only moved forward with the first one with the support 305 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: of Nurse Krueger. 306 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 4: And Ronnie had a conversation with his lawyer prior to 307 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 4: trial where he said, I've seen these reports that they're 308 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 4: going to call an expert to say that my daughter 309 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 4: was abused. Shouldn't we have our own expert, And his 310 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 4: lawyer responded, no, we don't because there's no physical evidence. 311 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: We don't need an expert. 312 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 3: Jafer admits she never called or looked around for any 313 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 3: expert testimony. If she had, she would have found out 314 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 3: that the allegations that Kruger made were totally medically mumbo jumbo. 315 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: Shannon Krueger's opinion was about to go unchallenged a trial, 316 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: along with Miss Johnson's credit with her well documented history 317 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: of weaponizing family court. 318 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 4: This lawyer didn't pull the family court file, so she 319 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 4: wouldn't have known about the past history, but she did 320 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 4: know about the December January incident and the false accusation, 321 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 4: and the lawyer just was unable to figure out how 322 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 4: to get that in at trial. 323 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 3: The judge in my case, Judge McGraw, he wouldn't even 324 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 3: allow my witnesses to testify to the second allegation denied 325 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 3: it on grounds of relevance. 326 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: The recantation to the therapist was also denied on grounds 327 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: of confidentiality, even though it was clearly exculpatory, as were 328 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: the recantations to the trial prosecutors. 329 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 3: They were trying to prefer for trial. That's when she 330 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 3: told them that once twice, that my dad didn't do 331 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: this to me. Also, they admit during those interviews with 332 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 3: her that she seemed to cheer up when she heard 333 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 3: my name, was excited to see me and was like, 334 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 3: oh is my daddy here? Like is that somebody afraid 335 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 3: to somebody? No witness recans to you twice, she recants 336 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 3: to a therapist, She recants to her mother on thirty 337 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: times that she says. So she's trying to tell these 338 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 3: people this shit didn't happen, but none of them are 339 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 3: believe in her. 340 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: Or maybe they did, considering the affidavits they signed about 341 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: the recantations, as well as the offer they made to 342 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: Ronnie prior to trial. 343 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, they offered me probation, no jail time. What type 344 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 3: of guilty man is not going to take a deal 345 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: for no jail time? In probation. The only person that 346 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 3: is not going to take that deal is the innocent 347 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 3: person that believed in the justice system and has the 348 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 3: truth behind their side. I turned that opportunity down. 349 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 4: Even though he's facing twenty years. He said, no, I 350 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 4: can't because it requires me to say that I harmed 351 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 4: my daughter and I never would have harmed my daughter. 352 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: Because he refused this deal, Ronnie was taken to trial 353 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen, where curiously, first the state called GM's pediatrician, 354 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: doctor Rhodes, to the stand and asked about the history 355 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: of discomfort. 356 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: Rhodes she admits, Hey, this could be something simple as 357 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 3: hygiene or an allergic reaction to laundry soap or something 358 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 3: like that, and they told the jury to totally disregard 359 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 3: their witness. 360 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: Then they revited Rhodes with nurse Krueger. 361 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 3: Krueger has asked the same questions that the Rhodes testify to, 362 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 3: and she would not admit that could be caused by 363 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 3: something simple as hygiene issues or allergic reaction from bubble 364 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 3: bass or laundry detergent. 365 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: And then GM was brought to the stand. 366 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 4: This is a matter of Illinois law. They had to 367 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 4: put her on the stand in order to put in 368 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 4: the videotape of her prior statement, but the child was 369 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 4: no longer accusing her father of a crime. They were 370 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 4: very concerned, the prosecutors, because it had been more than 371 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 4: two years since she had last seen her dad. 372 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 3: Oh yes, I was very emotional and just see in 373 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 3: her face. It was just like it was crazy. And 374 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 3: as soon as my daughter walked in the you should 375 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 3: stopped the trial. And basically told the judge was that, hey, 376 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 3: we're afraid that she's going to run up and just 377 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 3: give him a hug, and that's not going to look 378 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 3: good in front of the jury. 379 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 4: The judge's suggestion, and the prosecutors carried this out, is 380 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 4: to create sort of a human shield so that when 381 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 4: the child was brought to the stands, she would not 382 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 4: be able to see her father and so she would 383 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 4: not be tempted to go and run and hug him. 384 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: So a human shield obstructed GM's view of her father. 385 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: And GM did say that her father touched her cuckoo 386 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: with his finger, but it was said in a vague 387 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: and non sexual context, and GM didn't recall any details 388 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: of a sexual nature. So the exchange went, quote, do 389 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: you remember if he touched you on the inside or 390 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: the outside of your cuckoo? She replied, uh huh, you 391 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: don't remember, she said, no. Do you remember what it 392 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: felt like? She says, well, it hurt it a little bit, 393 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: but not too much, like getting your ears pierced. Did 394 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: you ever see daddy's private she says, I don't remember. 395 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: Did daddy ever touch you anywhere else on your body 396 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: that he shouldn't have touched? She says no. Do you 397 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: miss your daddy? She answered yes. Do you love your daddy? 398 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: She said yes? And there they're back and forth ends 399 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: right there. That's an end quote. 400 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 3: The prosecution Hader preps and is very vague on whether 401 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 3: you could consider this sexual abuse. Well, did your daddy 402 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 3: touch me? Yeah, he touched which could be construed as anything. 403 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 3: I was a responsible single parent. Yes, I bade my child. Yes, 404 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 3: I brush my daughter's hair, I made her brush her teeth, 405 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 3: I dressed her. Yes, I did all that. A responsible 406 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 3: parent does all those things. To say that sexual abuse 407 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 3: is just. 408 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: Crazy, But that testimony came with the context of the 409 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,239 Speaker 1: video statement, and despite the absurdities and untrue details, it 410 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: appears to have made a powerful impression on the jury, 411 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: who subsequently were deprived of knowing about the false accusations 412 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: and Miss Johnson's history with family court, despite Debra's best efforts. 413 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 5: When we testified the only thing when we tried to 414 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 5: bring up that date, they obviously kept it out of 415 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 5: the court. They would seal everything, They would go up 416 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 5: there and talk to the judge. Then the judge would decide, 417 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 5: this can't be discussed because it has nothing to do 418 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 5: with it. And we kept trying to say, yes it does. 419 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 5: It's a pattern of these lies that are continuing. It 420 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 5: like it totally had something to do with the case, 421 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 5: and they kept all of that out of the court documents. 422 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: This to me was incredibly troubling. 423 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: Almost as troubling as the prosecution, the court, and her 424 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: mother repeatedly ignoring GM's recantations. And when Miss Johnson was 425 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: asked about the July twelfth, twenty fifteen, argument with Ronnie, 426 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: she said it wasn't about suing for full custody or Tristan, 427 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: but rather about where GM would go to school. But 428 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: that testimony went unchallenged, and with that jury deliberation predictably 429 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: went very quickly. 430 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 3: They delivered rated two hours and they came back in 431 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 3: and said guilty, and it was over. I went from 432 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 3: not spending one day in jail in my whole life 433 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 3: to being cuffed up and brought away into a prison 434 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 3: system for twenty years, and I've been here ever since. 435 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 3: Prison is tough, man. Every day I wake up and 436 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 3: it's a nightmare. Man. Prison is designed to break you 437 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: down every single day, and I refuse to let them 438 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 3: do that. Now. This is what counts me every day, 439 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 3: is that my daughter has been left in her refuser's 440 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 3: hands and continue to be used by the state and Laurie, 441 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 3: And I'm fearful every day for her safety. And she's 442 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 3: the most important thing to me. If she could know 443 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 3: the truth and I knew that she was safe, I'd 444 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 3: have no problem doing whatever they needed. If they needed 445 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 3: me here for the rest of my life, I could 446 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 3: hear lists or my life's already ruined. I want her 447 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 3: to be safe, and I want her to know the truth, 448 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 3: and that's the bottom line of it. And I will 449 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 3: always maintain my innocence no matter how this goes, and 450 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 3: I'll never give up fighting. I'll fight this to the 451 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 3: day I die. 452 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: Ronnie's direct appeal was handled by another lawyer soon after 453 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: his conviction. But unfortunately you can't bring in new evidence 454 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: like the defense expert that should have been hired, or 455 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: evidence of false allegations, et cetera. Of course, just don't 456 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: allow it. 457 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 4: But the lawyer made a fairly strong argument that the 458 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 4: evidence was insufficient. As a matter of law and due 459 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 4: process says, the prosecution must present evidence to prove guilt, 460 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 4: otherwise the or should set you free. But what the 461 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 4: appellate court said is well, even though the child never 462 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 4: made any accusation at trial, there was an expert to 463 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 4: corroborate what was said on videotape. The court went on 464 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 4: to say, the defense put on no evidence to rebut 465 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 4: this so we have to sort of accept that it 466 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 4: was true. 467 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: Now, I'd like you to remember that the court noted 468 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: the absence of what would have been helpful evidence at trial, 469 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: as the next part of the fight would be to 470 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: prove that Ronnie had been deprived of his right to 471 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: effective counsel. 472 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 4: Part of the problem is the lawyer that represented Ronnie 473 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 4: is now a judge in Winnebago County. She was appointed 474 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 4: to a vacancy in the court by the judge that 475 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 4: presided over Ronnie's trial. 476 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 3: Another thing weird too, is after Schaeffer loses the trial, 477 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 3: Judge mcgrall teach congratulates her, Like, what kind of person 478 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 3: is like, Oh, you did such a good job, but 479 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 3: you lost the case. I found that very weird. And 480 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 3: then Judge mcral puts Schaeffer up for the judge ship. Right, 481 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 3: there's a lot of suspicion with that. Right after my case. 482 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: In a case where raising ineffective assists of counsel also 483 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: calls the trial judges judgment into question, this doesn't bode well. 484 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: It stinks, but those are the cards that they were dealt. 485 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: So Leonard raised the issue that his attorney had failed 486 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: to get Miss Johnson's history in family court as well 487 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: as her having made false allegations. She wasn't able to 488 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: get any of this admitted into the proceedings, in addition 489 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: the failure to hire a defense expert to rebut the 490 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: testimony of the States expert. 491 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 4: I had a conversation with this lawyer when I came 492 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 4: into the case, and she confirmed to me that she 493 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 4: made no attempt to contact any experts for the defense. Now, 494 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 4: it took me probably less than a couple hours to 495 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 4: make some phone calls and find somebody, a well respected, 496 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 4: board certified guynecologist that had experience with prepubescent teens and 497 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 4: was able to tell me very quickly what their expert 498 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 4: told the jury was complete nonsense. That this is very 499 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 4: common in prepubescent girls to have episodes of urinary tract 500 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 4: infections and general redness and itchiness, especially when they're learning 501 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 4: toilet skills and all of that. 502 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 1: Doctor Jack McCubbin said, quote, there is no medical evidence 503 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, and it is imperative that the jury 504 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: not be left with that perception end quote. 505 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 4: The post conviction was filed with I think something like 506 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 4: seventy exhibits, including doctor mccubbin's report, the family law documents, 507 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 4: DCFS records, which showed that the girl had recanted to 508 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 4: her therapist. It was conceded at trial that she recanted 509 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 4: to the trial prosecutors. There was also a report from 510 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 4: a child psychologist, because the defense really should have called 511 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 4: a child psychologist, because the prosecution told the jury I'm paraphrasing, 512 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 4: but inclosing argument that kids don't make these sort of 513 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 4: things up. When kids tell stories, it's about dinosaurs, ghosts, 514 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 4: and monsters. It's not about daddy touching me. What a 515 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 4: child's psychologist would have done is explain the situations when 516 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 4: there's a negative influence from the mother when children do fabricate. 517 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 2: The other thing that the. 518 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 4: Prosecution said is it because the person that was asking 519 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 4: the questions on the videotape was a forensically trained interviewer 520 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 4: that guaranteed the accuracy of what the child was saying, 521 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 4: and this child psychologist would have explained to the jura 522 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 4: is that, in fact, that forensically trained interviewer was not 523 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 4: using very good practices, including the mother bringing the child 524 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 4: into the room and placing her in front of the camera, 525 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 4: and the fact that the child started making accusations without 526 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 4: even being asked a question by the interviewer, which is 527 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 4: highly suspicious that the. 528 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: Child had been coached. 529 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 4: The other thing that we had asked for is we 530 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 4: wanted the child's counseling records because we had direct evidence 531 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 4: that the child had told her therapist that this never happened. 532 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 4: Counseling records are private, but if you can show a 533 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 4: compelling reason that we need this information to free an 534 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 4: innocent person, the judge should order it. And the judge 535 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 4: did not, so that was part of the post conviction petition. 536 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 4: As I said, there were dozens and dozens of exhibits 537 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 4: that was presented. 538 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 2: To the trial judge who was now asked. 539 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 4: To find that lawyer that he had appointed to the 540 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 4: bench had been ineffective in this case. 541 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: And as expected, the motion was denied. 542 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 3: She's part of the club, she's a judge. Now got 543 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 3: one person covering the other person's ass all the way up. 544 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 3: Just look at his explanation of denying my post conviction. 545 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 3: He didn't even give an explanation. Mister Goodman had to 546 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 3: file the motion for reasoning and he was pissed about 547 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 3: that that we would even question why he denied it. Well, 548 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 3: you didn't give us an explanation why. 549 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: So that decision was appealed to the very same court 550 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: that denied the direct appeal, considering that they had noted 551 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: two years prior that the defense had not rebutted the 552 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: state's expert. Their ruling was. 553 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 4: The same court is looking at the appeal of the 554 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 4: post conviction case, in which evidence has been presented in 555 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 4: the form of a report from a gynecologist with forty 556 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 4: years of experience saying that what the state's expert said 557 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 4: at trial was complete nonsense. And I would just point 558 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 4: out that the state never disputed that they basically conceded. Yeah, 559 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 4: that's true, but you should still affirm this conviction. The 560 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 4: state sort of came up with this excuse, Well, it's cumulative, 561 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 4: there's other evidence that the girl had told some lies 562 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 4: that there's other evidence that the girl had trouble wiping herself. Therefore, 563 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 4: we don't need to hear from doctor mccobbn. It would 564 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 4: have been cumulative to call doctor McCubbin. 565 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: Again. 566 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 4: This is complete nonsense. But the appellate court twisted itself 567 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 4: in knots in order to uphold this conviction and keep 568 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 4: this innocent person in jail and avoid making a finding 569 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 4: of ineffective assistance against this colleague on the bench. 570 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: So it appears that Nurse Krueger's testimony the only thing 571 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: that kept them from ruling for insufficient evidence on direct appeal, 572 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: where the expert would have been key. Now, with some 573 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: mental gymnastics, that court decided that the presentation of such 574 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: an expert was now cumulative to what had been presented. 575 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: Make it make sense, I can't so. Additionally, the Illinois 576 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: Supreme Court chose not to hear the case. So Leonard 577 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: and Ronnie moved on to federal habeas. 578 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 4: The case is pending in front of a federal district 579 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 4: judge in Rockford, Ian Johnson, a judge with a very 580 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 4: good reputation. We've asked for a hearing in front of him, 581 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 4: and we'll see what happens. The case is fully briefed. 582 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 4: The state filed their response, We filed a reply. Those 583 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 4: are all sitting on the judge's desk waiting for him 584 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 4: to make a ruling. 585 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: Well, we hope Ronnie is granted a hearing where the 586 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: judge can recognize both his innocence and the violations of 587 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: his rights. In the meantime, there's a young girl still 588 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: out there without her dad. 589 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 5: Even why Ronnie's been locked up all these years. We 590 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 5: continued in family court, fighting and fighting, and where my 591 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 5: mom was finally approved to just have visits with GM 592 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 5: with Lourie present, and it'd always be like they go 593 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 5: out to eat, or they'd take her shopping or something. 594 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 5: We did get a guardian at lightam involved. My daughter 595 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 5: was allowed to go to the visits with my mom. 596 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 5: But then when I finally got allowed my first very 597 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 5: first visit with my daughter, my mom, GM, Laurie and 598 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 5: Laurie's mother. We were at McDonald's. She went back and 599 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 5: told the court that I was questioning GM about everything 600 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 5: again because you know, obviously you're not allowed to talk 601 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 5: about any of it, and then all visits were stopped again. 602 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 5: I even asked the guardian at Lightham to come to 603 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 5: the visit, like none of this happened. And they're still 604 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 5: using the court to say now you guys can't see her. 605 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 5: And I know why they're keeping us away from her 606 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 5: because the truth will come out. It will come out 607 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 5: one day when she's old enough and she can say 608 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 5: what happened. It's all going to come out. 609 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 4: The one other aspect of this case, it's so tragic. 610 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 4: This is secondhand information, but it is something that would 611 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 4: not be hard to understand, is that she was basically 612 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 4: used by the prosecution to put her father in prison 613 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 4: for a crime that he didn't commit. And the fact 614 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 4: that the child is telling you and telling everyone that 615 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 4: will listen to her, this never happened. I think as 616 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 4: she has gained some awareness of what her role was, 617 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 4: it's been very difficult for her and apparently there was 618 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 4: some suicidal ideation in the child. 619 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 5: To this day, she's still having lots of issues between 620 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,479 Speaker 5: her mom and her brother, and there's no help for her. 621 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 5: I recently found out Tristan was arrested. Laurie stated she 622 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 5: came home from work. He was drunk under the influence 623 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 5: and had destroyed and broke everything in the house. They 624 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 5: did arrest him, and they actually put him in the 625 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,959 Speaker 5: hospital that night. They said they had to strap him 626 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 5: to a bed for over six hours and they couldn't 627 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 5: release them because of Laurie's safety. And in the police 628 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 5: report Laurie puts she's afraid of him and this has 629 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 5: happened on another occasion. But if they couldn't release them 630 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 5: for Lorie's safety, what about GM safety? 631 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 2: This girl is now, what is she twelve? Thirteen years old? 632 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 5: She is fourteen. 633 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 4: So I'm hoping that someday we will be able to 634 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 4: have some contact with her and maybe the truth can 635 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 4: come out to not only set Ronnie free, but at 636 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 4: least an attempt to right the wrong that was done 637 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 4: to them. 638 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: And hopefully Judge Johnston can give Ronnie the relief that 639 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: he so richly deserves and needs. And with that, we're 640 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: going to go to closing arguments, first Leonard, then Debrah 641 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: and Finally, Ronnie, thank you all for being here. I'm 642 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: going to switch off my mic, kick back in my 643 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: chair with my headphones on and just listen to anything 644 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: else you have to say. 645 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 4: I always had the feeling that deep down people want 646 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 4: to do the right thing. And one of the things 647 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 4: that they don't teach you in law school is that 648 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 4: you can be right on the facts and the law 649 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 4: and still lose if you have judges that have a 650 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 4: different agenda. And that's a very painful lesson for lawyers, 651 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 4: especially lawyers that do criminal defense work and really believe 652 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 4: in some of their co clients. And I think what 653 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 4: you're doing is probably the most important. As they say, 654 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 4: sunlight is the best disinfect and people know that a 655 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 4: wrong was done, and I think if they think that 656 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 4: it can be done in darkness, then there is little 657 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 4: incentive for people to want to come forward and right 658 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 4: or wrong, because it is hard for prosecutors to admit 659 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 4: that they made mistakes. It is hard for judges to 660 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 4: admit that they made mistakes. It is hard for lawyers. 661 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 4: But let's make this right. 662 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 5: I've been there since day one. I've gone to every 663 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 5: court thing. I have all the documents and me having 664 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 5: my own daughter, I couldn't imagine your kids mean everything 665 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 5: to you and then for somebody to use your kid 666 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 5: against you for their own personal gain. That's what's really 667 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 5: hard for me to understand. I just want them to 668 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 5: see how the justice system is wrong and how it 669 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 5: incarcerates completely innocent people and rips lifes apart. Not only 670 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 5: for my brother, not only was he wronged, GM was 671 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 5: wronged by the system too. I used to tell Ronnie 672 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 5: that one day we be standing somewhere talking about how 673 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 5: the truth would come out and people would really see 674 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 5: what a person around he really is instead of what's 675 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 5: been cast upon him. It will happen just one day. 676 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 3: Our justice system is broken from the foundation to the top. 677 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 3: All the checks and balances that are supposed to protect 678 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 3: an innocent man like myself fails. It failed because it 679 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 3: is run by corrupt people who only see people like 680 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 3: myself as money and a conviction rate, and they care 681 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 3: nothing about true justice or the truth. I think everyone 682 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 3: who has heard and knows my story and say that 683 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 3: I was not given a fair trial, I was deliberately 684 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 3: denied a fair trial. When it comes to sex abuse allegations, 685 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 3: I have learned that no evidence is needed for a conviction. 686 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 3: All the players in our justice system know how sensitive 687 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 3: the public is towards sex abuse, and they exploit this 688 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 3: fear to convict innocent people like myself, all for money, 689 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 3: all for power, not for real justice or public safety. 690 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 3: This is bigger than me. This can easily happen to anyone. 691 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 3: It could happen to you, to someone in your family. 692 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 3: This must stop. The system has failed me and my daughter. 693 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 3: To the people listening, I need your help. These corrupt 694 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 3: individuals work in the shadows. They don't want cases like 695 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 3: mine to be in the public eye. So I need 696 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 3: all those who are listening to be my voice to 697 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 3: expose what happened to me. The whole people that listen 698 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 3: to this, the bigger and brighter that light becomes, and 699 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 3: then these corrupt individuals won't be able to hide in 700 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 3: those shadows no more, and the truth, God willing will prevail. 701 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 3: I am pleading with all those listening to talk to 702 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 3: everyone they know and encourage them to listen to this podcast. 703 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 3: Thank you for your time and God bless you. 704 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 705 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,399 Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one 706 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for 707 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: Good plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our 708 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as 709 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kliber. 710 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time 711 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Rowse. Be sure to follow us 712 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and 713 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram 714 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of 715 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. 716 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 2: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported 717 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 2: in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed 718 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 2: by the individuals featured in this show are their own 719 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 2: and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.