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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: This is done in recent times in churchyard as well.

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Speaker 2: It's just for an easy maintenance. They move all the

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Speaker 2: stones back. The graves is still underneath here, you know.

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Speaker 2: It's just so they can keep it ti Jeck.

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Speaker 1: Some fall down, so people are buried here. Sarah wasn't

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Speaker 1: buried here?

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Speaker 2: Is that right? No, it would have been a sixth way.

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Speaker 1: I imagine Hillary and Gerald Fox and their granddaughter Mega

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Speaker 1: Edwards are with me looking at the outside of the

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Speaker 1: Quaker house in Berkhamsted, England. This is where their relative

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Speaker 1: John tll spent quite a lot of time later in

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Speaker 1: his life.

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Speaker 2: Verteen fifty two, eighteen fifty two.

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Speaker 3: So many starahs everywhere. I wonder whether there's an this

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Speaker 3: is all around that time period.

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Speaker 1: There are gravestones for prominent Quakers from the eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: in the front yard. There's a lot of squires here.

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Speaker 3: There must have been prominent here.

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Speaker 1: Ye had squea and little boys. The headstones are simple,

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Speaker 1: which is what I would expect from what Hilary Fox

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Speaker 1: told me about Quakerism. She learned about it from her father,

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Speaker 1: who took her to Quaker meetings when she was young.

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Speaker 2: Well, very simplistic life, really without a lot of frills.

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Speaker 2: Dad couldn't stand boasting of any kind if anybody was

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Speaker 2: sort of, you know, full of themselves and no I've

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Speaker 2: got this and I've got that. He really couldn't take

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Speaker 2: that at all. He had got a large house, a

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Speaker 2: large farm, but it was also hard work he'd done well.

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Speaker 1: This Quaker house would go on to become a place

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Speaker 1: of refuge for John Tll But back in eighteen fourteen,

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Speaker 1: the thirty year old was far from calm. In fact,

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Speaker 1: he was facing the gallows for his desperate attempt to

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Speaker 1: forge Bank of England notes. In a minute, we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about why Victorian England handled crimes so differently. The printer

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Speaker 1: who had reported him originally agreed to use a copper

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Speaker 1: plate to reproduce a bank note because John Tall assured

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Speaker 1: him that it was for the Quaker bank, but the

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Speaker 1: printer became suspicious because the bank always used another specific

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Speaker 1: vendor to make their prints, not him. The police eventually

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Speaker 1: arrested John Hall in eighteen fifteen, and he was quickly

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Speaker 1: convicted of forgery, which meant a mandatory death sentence. The

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Speaker 1: forgery of bank of England notes was not tolerated by

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Speaker 1: the law, and John Tall would need to pay with

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Speaker 1: his life. He would be taken to the gallows. A

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Speaker 1: hood would be placed over his head, the lord's prayer

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Speaker 1: would be read, whether he liked it or not. Then

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Speaker 1: the platform below him would be pulled and his neck

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Speaker 1: would break. Maybe the rope might also slowly strangle him

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Speaker 1: to death. Either way, John Tall was destined to die

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Speaker 1: at the gallows. I asked crime historian Angela Buckley about

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Speaker 1: a series of laws in the Victorian English legal system

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Speaker 1: called the Bloody Code.

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Speaker 4: It was a body of legatuslift acts for different crimes,

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Speaker 4: anything from grand theft which was a value of over

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Speaker 4: five shillings, which is a very small amount of money,

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Speaker 4: to forgery, to murder, to you know, sheep stealing all

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Speaker 4: kinds of things. It was called the Bloody Code.

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Speaker 1: Nell Darby is a crime historian and the host of

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Speaker 1: a TV series in Britain called Murder by the Sea.

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Speaker 1: She says that the Bloody Code covered a litany of crimes,

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Speaker 1: and often the punishment was death.

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Speaker 5: By the end of the eighteenth century, they were over

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Speaker 5: two hundred capital offenses in Britain. You know, we were

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Speaker 5: kind of very tough, especially on property related offenses. So

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Speaker 5: if you attacked someone, you probably get a lesser sentence

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Speaker 5: than if you'd stolen someone's money, because that was seen

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Speaker 5: as a more important thing.

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Speaker 1: I asked both Carol Baxter and Angela why forgery was

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Speaker 1: so serious in the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 6: Forging a banknote or counterfeiting a banknote was a huge,

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Speaker 6: huge offense because it undermined the financial system of Britain.

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Speaker 6: And this was so incredibly important that by the early

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Speaker 6: eighteen hundreds, because of the fact that notes could be

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Speaker 6: forged so easily.

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Speaker 3: There are estimates that in some areas.

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Speaker 6: Fifty percent of the basic one pound banknote were forged

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Speaker 6: fifty percent, so you can imagine the effect that has

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Speaker 6: on the economy.

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Speaker 4: Forgery is quite an important one because forgery was also

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Speaker 4: effectively a type of treason, because you know, if you're

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Speaker 4: forging the queen's notes, you know, the queen's image, that's

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Speaker 4: actually a very serious issue, much more serious than you

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Speaker 4: would imagine it to be. Now you know, it was

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Speaker 4: a very serious crime and a skilled crime as well.

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Speaker 1: Why was it a skilled crime?

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Speaker 4: There was a very complex and sophisticated processes involved which

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Speaker 4: basically involved melting down metals, and it typically it was

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Speaker 4: blacksmiths who then turned their hand to creating fake coins

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Speaker 4: if you like them, and they had whole networks of forges.

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Speaker 1: Angela said that blacksmiths often melted down pewter tankards, the

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Speaker 1: big beer mugs that men used to drink from. They

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Speaker 1: collected coins and melted those down, and then they would

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Speaker 1: create molds and they would pour the molten metal into

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Speaker 1: those molds to create money.

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Speaker 4: It was really quite complex, and the forgers were considered

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Speaker 4: to be craftsmen in their own rights, even though of

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Speaker 4: course it was illegal.

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Speaker 3: And then you get whole layers of crime.

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Speaker 1: There were so many ways to commit fraud in the

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 4: The thing about the nineteenth century is it was full

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Speaker 4: of scams and con artists and people committing all sorts

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Speaker 4: of crime. And we often think that today that we've

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Speaker 4: got lots of frausters around, but it's nothing really in

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Speaker 4: comparison to what was going on in the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 1: Carol Baxter says that the English penal system just wanted

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Speaker 1: to get rid of criminals quickly and efficiently.

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Speaker 6: So while the authorities basically wanted to they had a

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Speaker 6: simple solution to crime. Just kill everyone, execute them all.

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Speaker 6: They believed the criminals were born, not made, that they

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Speaker 6: imbibed criminality with their mother's milk, and the only way

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Speaker 6: to get rid of them was to literally get rid

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Speaker 6: of them.

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Speaker 1: So John Thall was facing the noose, but in his case,

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Speaker 1: he did have one advantage. Despite being excommunicated, he was

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Speaker 1: still a Quaker. I asked Hillary Fox about what happened

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Speaker 1: when the Quakers discovered that a man who regularly attended

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Speaker 1: their meeting house was convicted of a serious crime, a

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Speaker 1: crime that should have resulted in a hanging.

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Speaker 2: The normal punishment was the death penalty, but because they

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Speaker 2: were Quakers, they worked on the leniency to imprisonment instead

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Speaker 2: of the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: The Quakers intervened and requested that the government not prosecute

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Speaker 1: John Tall for forgery, but instead allow him to plead

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Speaker 1: guilty to a lesser offense. I talked with Carol Baxter

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Speaker 1: about how the Quaker's views on the death penalty played

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Speaker 1: a part in John Tall's story. She says that their

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Speaker 1: argument didn't surprise anyone in eighteen fourteen, because the Quakers

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Speaker 1: strongly opposed the death penalty.

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Speaker 6: The Quakers said, we can't bear to have to exit

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Speaker 6: cute somebody, to have somebody's execution on our conscience, because

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Speaker 6: they were against capital punishment, they were against war, they

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Speaker 6: were pacifists. They were heavily involved in the railroads, so

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Speaker 6: to speak, in America that helped the slaves get away.

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Speaker 1: Hillary Fox's granddaughter Meg Edwards says there may have been

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Speaker 1: even more to it than just the good conscience of

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Speaker 1: the Quakers.

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Speaker 7: The Quakers say that I think firstly, to send a

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Speaker 7: Quaker off to be hanged was just not an option

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Speaker 7: for them public image wise, not an option. The fact

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Speaker 7: that the newspapers at this time were so prolific and

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Speaker 7: so damning of cases like this. You know, it's kind

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Speaker 7: of like early tabloid time in a way.

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Speaker 1: She says, it might have hurt their image in the

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Speaker 1: newspapers because there were some very gossipy newspapers in the

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Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 7: It wouldn't have been a good idea. I think this

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Speaker 7: is also the time where in Quaker history the Industrial

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Speaker 7: Revolution was taking off and Quaker business was thriving or

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Speaker 7: is in its early stages of really climbing the ladder

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Speaker 7: in terms of capitalism and business and commerce.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't this seem contradictory. These are people who want to

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Speaker 1: remain modest, but they are still ambitious and sometimes wealthy.

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Speaker 1: It's complicated. But no matter what, John Tall and his

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Speaker 1: criminal case were bad news for the Quakers.

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Speaker 7: You've got families like the you know, chocolate businesses like

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Speaker 7: Cadbury's that was starting to take off properly in the

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Speaker 7: in the early eighteen hundreds, and it was just not

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Speaker 7: a good idea for a Quaker to be hanged.

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Speaker 1: That's an understatement. But the Quakers weren't always united on

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Speaker 1: every reaction to a public relations crisis. Historian Esther Zala says,

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Speaker 1: the religious group wasn't organized with one person at the

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Speaker 1: top like the pope.

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Speaker 8: There's a rule book at least all sorts of things

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Speaker 8: the Quaker discipline that gets updated every few years at

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Speaker 8: least once a generation, I think more frequently actually to

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Speaker 8: this day. But these qua meetings, the organization then it's

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Speaker 8: like a it's not like a very well functioning, modern

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Speaker 8: efficient company.

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Speaker 1: It was mostly volunteer run.

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Speaker 8: Right, So this is like essentially, this is a lot

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Speaker 8: of volunteers who are running this, who earning the church

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Speaker 8: in their free time. Whether your meeting is going to

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Speaker 8: respond to any of your trespasses, and to what extent

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Speaker 8: was strongly depend on the local leadership, membership, your relationship

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Speaker 8: to them, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: In another favorable twist, it turns out that the English

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Speaker 1: government had recently been under pressure from the public because

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Speaker 1: crime was rising and executions didn't seem to be deterring criminals.

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Speaker 6: So they started to get jack of the idea that

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Speaker 6: anyone can go to the galloy simply for being found

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Speaker 6: in possession of forged notes, so they stopped convicting people.

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Speaker 6: That meant that the authorities had a bit of a problem.

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Speaker 1: Would they do about it?

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Speaker 3: So they got together.

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Speaker 6: With the Bank of England, which was the biggest bank

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Speaker 6: and essentially represented the government, when they reached an agreement

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Speaker 6: that if people agreed to plead guilty before the trial proceeded,

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Speaker 6: they would automatically be sentenced to fourteen years transportation, but

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Speaker 6: if they refused to do so, if they pleaded not

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Speaker 6: guilty and they were found guilty, they would be executed.

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Speaker 1: So at the time of John Tole's case, forgery was

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Speaker 1: still a serious crime that could result in hanging, but

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Speaker 1: the government was exploring solutions to put their people at

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Speaker 1: ease while still keeping the country safe, and transportation was

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Speaker 1: one of the other punitive options. Historian ANGELA Buckley says,

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Speaker 1: they could opt to ship you off to a penal

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Speaker 1: colony for a certain number of years.

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Speaker 4: It was a convenient way really of getting rid of

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Speaker 4: people who broke the law. From the British perspective, that

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Speaker 4: wasn't uncommon. I mean, as you I'm sure you know,

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Speaker 4: you know, hundreds of thousands of people were sent to

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Speaker 4: penal colonies, so it wasn't unusual, and it wasn't unusual

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Speaker 4: for a crimes such as forgery. You know, you you

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Speaker 4: could have gone just from a relatively simple theft.

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Speaker 1: Many of these people were sent to the penal colony

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Speaker 1: in Australia. I asked Angelo, why Australia.

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Speaker 4: Well, I guess because of the relationship between the crown,

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Speaker 4: you know, in the UK, the British and Australia. And

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Speaker 4: of course we lost a penal colonies in America because

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Speaker 4: of independence after the War of Independence, understandably, and so

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Speaker 4: it switched to another area of the Commonwealth. And I

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Speaker 4: don't know a great deal about Australian history, but yes,

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Speaker 4: it was easy, too easy to make arrangements with countries

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Speaker 4: with whom you have that link. I mean, it was

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Speaker 4: just out of sight, out of mind essentially. You know,

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Speaker 4: let's get rid of them, you know, and send them

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Speaker 4: as far away as possible, and Australia were willing to

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Speaker 4: take them.

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Speaker 1: Large numbers of convicted male criminals were loaded onto huge

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Speaker 1: ships leaving England called the Hulks. As they rode toward Australia,

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Speaker 1: some of the men nearly starved to death, and they

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Speaker 1: were crowded together, passing along various diseases. Some were there

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Speaker 1: simply for stealing a loaf of bread, and the English

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Speaker 1: government didn't only send men. In seventeen eighty seven, a

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Speaker 1: twenty year old became the first english woman to be

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Speaker 1: sent to Australia for stealing merchandise worth just a shilling.

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Speaker 1: Over the years, nearly two hundred thousand people were transported

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Speaker 1: to Australia. It sounds terrible to be sent ten thousand

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Speaker 1: miles away from home for who knows how many years,

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Speaker 1: So in eighteen fifteen it was possible that John Tall

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Speaker 1: might actually be spared from the gallows. Though the option

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Speaker 1: of transportation still sounds pretty severe to me. The Quakers

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Speaker 1: were clear John Tall should not die at the gallows,

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Speaker 1: and they intervened in his case, requesting that the government

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Speaker 1: not convictim of forgery, but instead allow him to plead

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Speaker 1: guilty to a lesser crime.

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Speaker 6: So they managed to get John Tall to agree to

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Speaker 6: this other crime of just being in possession of counterfeit notes.

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Speaker 1: It was as if he had just held on to

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Speaker 1: the forged notes, but he didn't actually pay to have

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Speaker 1: them produced. This took the death penalty off the table

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Speaker 1: and allowed for some negotiation, some surprising negotiation. After Tall

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Speaker 1: was convicted in eighteen fifteen, he was sentenced to seven

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Speaker 1: years in an English prison. That seemed like a better

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Speaker 1: option than being transported to another continent, right not, according

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Speaker 1: to Tall, says his great great granddaughter.

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Speaker 2: They were going to imprison him here for seven years

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Speaker 2: for the bank note for crime, and he asked, He

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Speaker 2: conducted his own defense and asked himself, could he be

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Speaker 2: transported to Australia for fourteen years? And they agreed to it?

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Speaker 1: What Why would he agree to a sentence that was

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Speaker 1: twice as long? Angela Buckley and I talked about it.

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Speaker 4: The fact you've got fourteen years is quite long because

256
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Speaker 4: often you would get seven years in the first instance,

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Speaker 4: and then you might get a longer sentence if you'd

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Speaker 4: had other crimes afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Here's the reason Hall requested to be transported to Australia

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Speaker 1: for twice as long. He didn't want to be locked

261
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Speaker 1: in an English prison for seven years where he might

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Speaker 1: die from disease or starvation or any number of causes. Also,

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Speaker 1: the enterprising man or a woman could actually create a

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Speaker 1: good life for themselves in a penal colony. John Tall

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Speaker 1: was very different from the typical person who was sent

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Speaker 1: to Australia. Remember, he was a trained druggist and a chemist,

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Speaker 1: and he knew how to concoct medicine. Tall was also

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Speaker 1: middle class, and he still wanted to be upper class.

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Speaker 1: He had traveled as a salesman and a merchant. He

270
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Speaker 1: knew how to sell products. He had business savvy and

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Speaker 1: sincerity and some charm, and John Tall wanted to make

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Speaker 1: a go of it in Australia, and so he did.

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Speaker 1: On March twelfth, John Tall boarded one of the large

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Speaker 1: prison hulks at Woolwich on the River Thames, southeast of London,

275
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Speaker 1: and soon he was off sailing toward a new life.

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Speaker 1: In Sydney, Australia, more than ten thousand miles away from England.

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Speaker 1: The trip was long, and Carol Baxter writes that he

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Speaker 1: was forced to bathe in the same water as the

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Speaker 1: other prisoners. There were rats running across the ships. The

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Speaker 1: other men seemed beneath him. John Tall's wife Mary and

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Speaker 1: his two sons remained in England, but he promised to

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Speaker 1: send for them as soon as he could. Would he

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Speaker 1: though most men in penal colonies didn't. They made new

284
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Speaker 1: lives and forgot about their old ones. What kind of

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Speaker 1: family man was John Tall? John Taull was now in

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Speaker 1: Australia at the penal colony. I wondered what happened when

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Speaker 1: he arrived. Was he plotting something else, some easy way

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Speaker 1: to make money?

289
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Speaker 6: He went to Australia and at this stage the mask

290
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Speaker 6: was still off and he saw opportunities.

291
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Speaker 3: He actually was very clever.

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Speaker 6: When you arrived in Australia as a criminal, they asked

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Speaker 6: you your occupation. Of course, in a lot of these

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Speaker 6: people the occupation was thief. But they couldn't say thief,

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Speaker 6: so they had to give another occupation. But John Tall

296
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Speaker 6: actually had one commercial traveler. It indicated who was one

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Speaker 6: of the specials.

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Speaker 1: The agents asked whole about his occupation, and he was

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Speaker 1: smart because he knew that being a trained druggist would

300
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Speaker 1: make him valuable in a colony rife with disease, but

301
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Speaker 1: he didn't mention it yet. That would help him soon,

302
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Speaker 1: but first he needed to take on some menial work

303
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Speaker 1: in Australia.

304
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Speaker 6: Initially he was an assigned servant to other people, so

305
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Speaker 6: he was just an employee in their houses. I mean,

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Speaker 6: at one point he was teaching school, so again, very

307
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Speaker 6: intelligent man, very capable man, apparently a very good teacher.

308
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Speaker 1: But then he was allowed to move on to a

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Speaker 1: job that proved to be pivotal.

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Speaker 6: So they assigned him to the government hospital, to the

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Speaker 6: dispensary there as not as the druggist, but as an

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Speaker 6: assistant there.

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Speaker 3: But of course, as I said, the mask was still off.

314
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Speaker 1: John Toll couldn't stay out of trouble even in a

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Speaker 1: penal colony. He stole some goods from the hospital, and

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Speaker 1: when he was caught, he was punished.

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Speaker 6: And he stole some goods and he was sent away

318
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Speaker 6: to a secondary penal settlement where he perhaps saw the

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Speaker 6: error of his ways and seemingly he also got tuberculosis.

320
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Speaker 6: So when he came, yes, dreadful disease when and also

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Speaker 6: a very important disease in his life story.

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Speaker 1: Of course, tuberculosis was a horrid, painful, highly contagious disease

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Speaker 1: that had killed scores of people throughout history, and in

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Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds, tuberculosis was often a death sentence.

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Speaker 6: He contracted toberculos as he ended up in Sydney hospital

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Speaker 6: for a while himself, about five months.

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Speaker 3: I think it was.

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Speaker 1: As he lay in his hospital bed, John Tall watched

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Speaker 1: the nurses and doctors administer medicines to their patients. He

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Speaker 1: was given medicine too, Then he realized something. He had

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Speaker 1: an epiphany. In my book All That Is Wicked, I

332
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Speaker 1: talk about how Edward Ruloff made his supposedly incredible discovery

333
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Speaker 1: about human language in an unusual place. He was serving

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Speaker 1: a ten year sentence for kidnapping his wife. Ruloff benefited

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Speaker 1: from the Auburn State Prisons system of silence in the

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Speaker 1: eighteen forties. Inmates had their own private cells. They weren't

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Speaker 1: allowed to speak to each other, even during meals. All

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Speaker 1: of that quiet that lasted a decade gave Ruloff a

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Speaker 1: chance to regroup, ponder and then write. His revelations changed

340
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Speaker 1: his goals forever. I guess sometimes to have a life

341
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Speaker 1: changing revelation, all you need is a bit of rest.

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Speaker 1: John Tall propped himself up in the bed and he

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Speaker 1: noticed the huge amount of pills that were being delivered

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Speaker 1: to the hospital. That was his epiphany.

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Speaker 6: He saw an opportunity. He realized that there was a

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Speaker 6: market out there for pharmaceutical goods and special goods like

347
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Speaker 6: that that somebody with his sort of skills would be

348
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Speaker 6: able to sell as a retail pharmacy.

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Speaker 1: So John Tall decided to change his life. Once he

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Speaker 1: was allowed more freedom. He wanted to not just make

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Speaker 1: the best of his time in Australia, but to leave

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Speaker 1: the colony in a better position. He wanted to thrive,

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Speaker 1: not just survive.

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Speaker 6: So he then behaved very well. US came back on,

355
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Speaker 6: he behaved very well. He was highly recommended somehow, and

356
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Speaker 6: this is something that I was never able to fully establish.

357
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Speaker 6: He somehow got funding and was able to send orders

358
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Speaker 6: to England to have pharmaceutical goods sent out to Australia,

359
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Speaker 6: and he set up Australia's first retail pharmacy and he

360
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Speaker 6: became a very wealthy man.

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Speaker 1: Tall recognized that the country needed a private facility that

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Speaker 1: could be a one stop shop for medicine and goods,

363
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Speaker 1: rather than ordering from individual manufacturers. Tall was an outstanding

364
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Speaker 1: druggist and businessman. He was reliable, hard working, resourceful and ambitious.

365
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Speaker 6: And then he ran the pharmacy and started to become

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Speaker 6: exceedingly wealthy. And what he saw was a massive niche market,

367
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Speaker 6: so not just for pharmaceutical goods, but for spices and

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Speaker 6: for chocolates and for all sorts of indulgences.

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Speaker 1: It was almost like a CVS in America or a

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Speaker 1: Boots in Britain.

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Speaker 6: When I was young, pharmacies only really stopped medical products.

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Speaker 6: Today they stop everything in America. Of course you call

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Speaker 6: them drugstores, we call them pharmacies. But the principles the same.

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Speaker 1: John Tall had become an entrepreneur and a penal colony.

375
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Speaker 6: Well, he saw the advantage of this in the eighteen twenties,

376
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Speaker 6: so he had a very nice life. He then invested

377
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Speaker 6: in property, so he didn't just have his business, and

378
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Speaker 6: gradually eventually he sold his business, so he invested in property.

379
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Speaker 3: He acted as an importer exporter.

380
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Speaker 6: So the man had big visions and big capabilities and

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Speaker 6: was rewarded handsomely for it.

382
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Speaker 1: He did make a lot of money, which is impressive

383
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Speaker 1: considering where he was. But like so many successful entrepreneurs,

384
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Speaker 1: Tall saw a need and he filled it. The word

385
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Speaker 1: says he was a man with so much promise, even

386
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Speaker 1: though we know it wouldn't last.

387
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Speaker 7: I think this is where it's really reflective of his character.

388
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Speaker 7: It was unusual for someone to be shipped off to

389
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Speaker 7: Australia and to make it as big as he made it.

390
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Speaker 7: That was really unusual. It was a slow burn. I

391
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Speaker 7: think he was not thriving at first.

392
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Speaker 3: There's a bit of.

393
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Speaker 7: Conflict between them being resourceful, I think, and being scheming,

394
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Speaker 7: and I think this is where he's probably a bit

395
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Speaker 7: more resourceful than scheming.

396
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Speaker 1: I thought that was very innovative. Taul took potentially adverse

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Speaker 1: circumstances and leveraged them to his benefit.

398
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Speaker 7: He was able to use his knowledge of very specific things,

399
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Speaker 7: like he had pharmaceutical knowledge. He was clearly very clever.

400
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 7: He's very business savvy. He saw if you like a

401
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 7: gap in the market, he went for it. I think

402
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 7: he also had friends in high places or he made

403
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 7: friends in high places. After a few years he was

404
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 7: able to really establish himself and make himself indispensable. He

405
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,479
Speaker 7: was useful to people and was very quickly able to

406
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 7: make a better life for himself out there than he

407
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 7: had here, which is incredible.

408
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: It sounds like being sent to a penal colony was

409
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: actually a gift. Sometimes it is a gift for people

410
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Speaker 1: to be forced to start over.

411
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Speaker 7: He was able to cut ties at least for the

412
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Speaker 7: time being, and kind of start afresh. He was handed

413
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 7: quite a nice clean slate. He definitely made the most

414
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 7: of it. I think what comes after is fascinating.

415
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Speaker 1: Meg's talking about the series of terrible decisions that would

416
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: ultimately doom John Tall, but we're not to that part

417
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: of the story yet. Australia was good to Tall, and

418
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Speaker 1: Angela Buckley says he wasn't the only person to find

419
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Speaker 1: success there.

420
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Speaker 4: Certainly is the case that many individuals were very successful

421
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 4: in Australia because once they were free, they were able

422
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 4: to build businesses and do all kinds of things.

423
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Speaker 1: Carol Baxter says that living in a penal colony could

424
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 1: be actually more were productive than being free and at

425
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: home in England.

426
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Speaker 6: Well that was part of the problem with penal servitude

427
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 6: that these people came out to Australia and they did

428
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 6: have a better life. Early convicts they got grants of land.

429
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Speaker 6: How would somebody in the UK get a grant of land.

430
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 6: All they had to do was part of their penal

431
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 6: servitude was they had to work for part of the

432
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 6: day for the government and then the rest of the

433
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 6: day they worked for themselves because in the early days

434
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 6: they didn't have any jails and things for the convicts,

435
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 6: so the comics had to support themselves.

436
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: By the time John Tall had built his businesses, the

437
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: English had started building barracks to house people who were

438
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: convicted of a crime.

439
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,239
Speaker 6: But prior to that there wasn't the constraints imposed on

440
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 6: the covics when they were transported to Australia. As you mentioned,

441
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 6: it was a big outdoor colony, essentially big outdoor prison.

442
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 6: So those who were willing to work hard succeeded.

443
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 3: Some of these people, when you look at.

444
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 6: Land, were worth billions of dollars into day's money and

445
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 6: they were convicts.

446
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: Carol says that if you were clever and opportunistic, you

447
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 1: had opportunities in Australia that you were never offered in England.

448
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 6: These people hadn't had the opportunities in the UK there

449
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 6: was overpopulated. One of the arguments for establishing Australia or

450
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 6: in those days New South Wales's penal settlement.

451
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: It was a way of sending some of.

452
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 6: Its people elsewhere to reduce the population issues. Because when

453
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 6: there weren't enough jobs and everything, people naturally had to

454
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 6: resort to crime to survive.

455
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 3: It's the classic survival instinct.

456
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 6: So give them opportunities and guess what, they don't commit crimes.

457
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: I wondered if most of these people returned to England

458
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 1: once their sentence was over. Angela Buckley says, sometimes.

459
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 4: You know, actually many people who stayed and sometimes maybe

460
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 4: brought their families over after did have their roots. You know,

461
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 4: society today still have their roots in that time.

462
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: John Tall is such a confusing person to research, a

463
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: man with drastically conflicting characteristics that I'll never quite understand.

464
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: Was he a reliable family man and entrepreneur as he

465
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: now appeared, or a calculating and sneaky criminal. I asked

466
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: Hillary Fox if any of these traits of his were

467
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: passed down through the generations in her family.

468
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 9: You know, there are people I interview who see qualities

469
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 9: both negative and positive, linked.

470
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: To these types of stories. There are people who say, well.

471
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 9: This actually explains some of the mental illness that we

472
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 9: have in our family. And there are people who say,

473
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 9: you know, I didn't realize this person was a pharmacist,

474
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,239
Speaker 9: and we have a lot of these. You know, make

475
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 9: told me they are pharmacists in your family. So I

476
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 9: do wonder about links, not the bad link. But he

477
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 9: obviously was incredibly resourceful.

478
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. He's quite clever in some way because

479
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: the pharmacist link. Yes, one of George's brothers Ted, he

480
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: was a pharmacist, perhaps on the right side of the family,

481
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: So you're right that that was a link. Wasn't discussed

482
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: of course. Also, he was a collector, I believe, and

483
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: he had some stuffed birds. Whether that was just a

484
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: general thing in Victorian times, I'm not sure. But my

485
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: father had a big collection of stuff birds, big class cases.

486
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: But he was just a collector generally.

487
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: I think another link between John Hall and Hillary's family,

488
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: a very strong one, is the link that saved his life, Quakerism.

489
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: Carol Baxter says that when he first arrived to the

490
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: penal colony. Taul rejected his former religion.

491
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 6: He initially abandons Quakerism, as I said, he committed a crime.

492
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: He became a pharmacist.

493
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: But then things changed.

494
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 6: And it appears that it's around that point that he

495
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 6: started to don the Quaker garb again and become the

496
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 6: pious man with his these and vows.

497
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: His first job was for a Quakers, so really most

498
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: of his life he'd been influenced by quakersn't it. Obviously

499
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: absorbed it and thought that was the way he wanted

500
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: to go. He was philanthropic. He gave away money, you know,

501
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: when he had it, when he was wealthy. In Australia,

502
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: he gave money for the building of a Quaker meeting house,

503
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: so I guess that was Quaker ethics.

504
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: It wasn't just a Quaker house, it was the first

505
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: Quaker house in the country.

506
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 6: He essentially established the Quaker church in New South Wales.

507
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 3: Because amazing that he did that.

508
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, because what happened was the Quaker missionaries, and

509
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 6: I guess one would call them evangelists, went to Tasmania

510
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 6: and established Quakerism in Tasmania, and then they came to

511
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 6: New South Wales and knew nobody, and then they met

512
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 6: up with John Tall, and we can see again with

513
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 6: this aspect of his personality, that he saw them as.

514
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 3: His pathway to Quaker acceptance.

515
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 6: So he had the first Quaker meetings in his house,

516
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 6: and then he.

517
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 3: Decided to build a Quaker meeting house, which he did.

518
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: I found it hard to believe that a man who

519
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: had been excommunicated from the Quakers in England would have

520
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: such a strong voice in Australia, but Arthur ester Zala

521
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: says she's not at all surprised.

522
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 8: The communication between Australia and England probably wasn't great at

523
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 8: the time, so I can totally imagine that still a

524
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 8: fairly young colony at the time, you know, so it's

525
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 8: not that many colonists around, and not that much of

526
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 8: a religious infrastructure, at least for Quakerism. So I could

527
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 8: imagine that that would have been fairly easy for somebody

528
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 8: with the ambition and the personality here thing to be

529
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 8: a sort of leader, etc.

530
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: The Penal Colony allowed men to send for their families

531
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: in England, but as I said earlier, many chose not to.

532
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: Maybe they didn't find Australia to have the promise that

533
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: England offered and they planned to return. Maybe they wanted

534
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: a new start with no family ties. But John Tall

535
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: seemed to miss his wife and kids while he was

536
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: serving his sentence, so after nine years in Sydney, he

537
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: sent for them. I told Meg Edwards that I was

538
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: a little surprised by that decision. Many of these people who.

539
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 9: Were sent to penal colonies in United States or Australia

540
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 9: or wherever just sort of said goodbye to their families and.

541
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 3: He sent for them, which costs money.

542
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: So he sent for his wife and his for Mary

543
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: and his two sons to come up to Australia.

544
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 3: So you know that is not starting a new life.

545
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 3: So what does that say to you about him?

546
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 7: It's difficult to say, but I know if I was

547
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 7: sent off, if I committed a crime and was sent

548
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 7: off to Australia, I think I'd find it difficult to

549
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 7: not send for my family. I think that feels quite

550
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 7: natural to me. Obviously, it was a very different time

551
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 7: and these very different circumstances. But I think perhaps there

552
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 7: is something in there and that fit his image. It

553
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 7: fit his image of a family man and a businessman,

554
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 7: and someone who was respectable and someone who was reliable.

555
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: Mary and the boys lived with him in Sydney and

556
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: they became prominent in the community once again.

557
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 6: So his wife and the kids came out, and again

558
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 6: he was doing things like getting on the board of

559
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 6: banks with Governor mcquarie, who had a very progressive attitude

560
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 6: towards the convicts. He felt that if they had done

561
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 6: their time and they proved their worth, then they should

562
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 6: be treated accordingly.

563
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: Un once again, John Tall's desire for money took hold

564
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: and the mask of the pious Quaker began to slip.

565
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: Despite his standing with the group.

566
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 6: He by that stage was actually having people steal from

567
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 6: his shop.

568
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: Tall had begun essentially committing insurance fraud by paying thieves

569
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 1: to steal his goods so he could claim the losses

570
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: but then get them back. But then one thief didn't

571
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: bring back the goods. That makes sense. He was a thief,

572
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure what John Toll was thinking. The

573
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 1: decision to hire a thief seems haphazard. And then Tall

574
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: did something brazen. He took the thief to court to

575
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: get his money back. That must have been awkward.

576
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 6: And one of the funny stories with him was the

577
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 6: fact that when he took them to court for fifth,

578
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 6: he had to state an oath that he would tell

579
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 6: the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. Big

580
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 6: Quakers refused to profess oats because they are supposed to

581
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 6: all be telling it the truth.

582
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 1: So he tripped up when he was testifying against the thief.

583
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 6: He couldn't proceed with the prosecution because he couldn't give

584
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 6: his own oath.

585
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 3: So he actually then.

586
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 6: Took that bit of his Quaker hat off, and the

587
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 6: next time around he stood up in court and said, yes,

588
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 6: I'm telling the.

589
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 3: Truth, the whole truth, and nothing about the truth Quaker

590
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 3: when convenient, I suppose absolutely.

591
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,720
Speaker 1: It seems that the thief was convicted after Tall told

592
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: his story on the stand. It was more proof that

593
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 1: Tall could likely get away with many things, and if

594
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: he didn't, that he could make the best of a

595
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: bad situation. Say what you want about his character and

596
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: his mask up until this point in his life. At

597
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: that penal colony, he did something extraordinary. John Tall helped

598
00:35:50,160 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: bring Quakerism to Australia. Now about Mary and the boys.

599
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: Tall was influential as a Quaker. Did he keep them

600
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: there because they helped his image as a pious man?

601
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: Meg Edwards doesn't think so.

602
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 7: At that stage, he had given up an awful lot

603
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 7: to be with Mary and to have those children.

604
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: Before he was sent to Australia, he had been kicked

605
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: out of the Quakers because she wasn't a Quaker.

606
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 7: I'm sure a lot of it was to be a

607
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 7: good father and to ensure that his sons had a

608
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 7: good start in life. Whether that was the right move

609
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 7: to move them over, I'm not convinced. They were probably

610
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 7: quite useful to him as well, the sons. Yeah, I

611
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 7: think it makes sense I do to move your family over,

612
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 7: but it absolutely was unusual.

613
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: John Tall, Mary and the two boys all seemed to

614
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: do well in Australia, Tall with his businesses in his

615
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: Quaker meetinghouse. But then just as things seemed about perfect,

616
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: everything began to change, and tragedy after tragedy would soon strike.

617
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: Some weren't Tall's fault at all, but others absolutely were.

618
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: There would be four deaths and Tall's life in just

619
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: a few years. Who would die and why?

620
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 6: And that's where the next part of the story begins.

621
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: On the next episode of tenfold, more wicked on exactly right.

622
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 6: He'd really only just been accepted when he was booted out.

623
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 6: The astonishing thing, though, is after a short time of

624
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 6: absence where he got over his humiliation, he licked his wounds,

625
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 6: so to speak.

626
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: He went back, and that is extraordinary. He went back

627
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 3: and attended their services.

628
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 6: Unfortunately, it was the time of things like the cholera epidemic.

629
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 7: Whether it's convenience, whether it's maybe a little bit of arrogance,

630
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 7: he probably thought he was the best person for the

631
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 7: job to look after her. He knew what he was

632
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 7: talking about. He certainly knew where to find particular medicines.

633
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 7: He looked after her to the point of where it

634
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 7: made sense to bring in other people.

635
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 6: And they brought in a nursemaid to look after his wife.

636
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: If you love a good, real ghost story, my audio

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Speaker 1: check out my book All That Is Wicked, which is

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the criminal mind. This has been

644
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Speaker 1: an exactly right tenfold War Media Production producers Jason Whaling,

645
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: Alexis and Morosi and Natalie Wrinn. Editors Jason Whaling and

646
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: Kate Winkler Dawson researcher Kate Winkler Dawson, sound designer Eric Friend,

647
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: composer Curtis Heath. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hardstark,

648
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgariff, and Daniel Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and

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650
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Speaker 1: war and If you know of a historical crime that

651
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652
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