Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman and this is Psychoactive, a production
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show
Speaker 1: where we talk about all things drugs. But any of
Speaker 1: view is expressed here do not represent those of my
Speaker 1: Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed,
Speaker 1: as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may
Speaker 1: not even represent my own and nothing contained in this
Speaker 1: show should be used as medical advice or encouragement to
Speaker 1: use any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Well, we're
Speaker 1: approaching at the end of the second season of Psychoactive,
Speaker 1: but in thinking about how I'd like the last or
Speaker 1: penultimate episode to be, uh, you know, the notion of
Speaker 1: getting more personal, going more deeply into the issue and
Speaker 1: the questions around m d m A seemed to me
Speaker 1: a good one. Obviously, we've talked about m d m
Speaker 1: A before. There was the episode with Rick Doblin talking
Speaker 1: about his history of the m d m A and
Speaker 1: the trials that will hope to result in the f
Speaker 1: d A approving m d m A and the next
Speaker 1: year or so. But our guest today is somebody who's
Speaker 1: not an m d m A psychotherapist. He doesn't do
Speaker 1: psychotherapy with m d m A. He's not part of
Speaker 1: the trials that MAPS has been moving Forward and others,
Speaker 1: but he's deeply knowledgeable about the subject. His name is
Speaker 1: Charlie Wininger. He's the author of a book a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago called Listening to Ecstasy, The Transformative Power
Speaker 1: of m d m A. Now he's a licensed psychoanalyst
Speaker 1: and mental health counselor in New York. He's been in
Speaker 1: private practice more than thirty years. Some years years ago,
Speaker 1: The New York Times and Newsday nicknamed him the quote
Speaker 1: unquote love doctor because of his work with singles. But
Speaker 1: now he's specializing more in relationships and communication. Skill isn't
Speaker 1: dealing with love and couples and also grief. But I
Speaker 1: also asked Um Charlie to invite his wife, Shelly on
Speaker 1: the program as well, Shelley winning Gerald Um in part
Speaker 1: because the book he and story he tells and Listening
Speaker 1: to Ecstasy is so much about the relationship. I mean,
Speaker 1: the two of them when I crossed paths with them
Speaker 1: in New York City. They are an inseparable couple and
Speaker 1: something about the most reminded me of Sasha and Anne
Speaker 1: Shulgin if you think about their book Pekal, where half
Speaker 1: the book is the chemical recipes for all sorts of
Speaker 1: psychedelic substances. The other one is the story of their
Speaker 1: love story and their use of various substances. So, Charlie Shelley,
Speaker 1: thank you ever so much for joining me and my
Speaker 1: listeners on Psychoactive. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. Charlie. Um.
Speaker 1: You know I'll tell you reading your book, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's really almost a story, UM of three loves, your
Speaker 1: love with Shelley, your love of M d m A
Speaker 1: and its value, and then a third story about your
Speaker 1: love of community and the communities you're part of, UM
Speaker 1: and that you've helped organize and curate. And so you know,
Speaker 1: let me just start UM by asking you. I mean,
Speaker 1: much of your book involves, you know, this, this period
Speaker 1: twenty years ago when you and Shelley meet and it's
Speaker 1: your second marriages and you fall in love and and
Speaker 1: we'll get into that story. But in terms of your
Speaker 1: earlier history of M D m A, had you done
Speaker 1: it before, had it been less valuable to you in
Speaker 1: your life? Was there a pre story there. M d
Speaker 1: M A was not valuable to me at all until
Speaker 1: I met Shelley. I had given it up. I had
Speaker 1: only done it alone and recreationally. I didn't know about
Speaker 1: the protocols at the time. I'm going back to the nineties,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know about hydrating. I didn't know about
Speaker 1: not mixing it with alcohol, all these basic fundamental mistakes.
Speaker 1: So I had given it up for dead. I thought
Speaker 1: that this was a substance without substance. Then I met Shelley,
Speaker 1: and Shelley was like just recently sprung from a regressive marriage,
Speaker 1: and she wanted to spread her wings. And when she
Speaker 1: found out about my hippie past and I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's all in the past um, and she found
Speaker 1: out that I was a psychoanot and had been a
Speaker 1: psychoanat for thirty years by the time I met her
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. She said she wanted to uh, she
Speaker 1: wanted me to corrupt her basically, so I said about
Speaker 1: doing so. And the first time we did M d
Speaker 1: m A together was a true revelation for both of us.
Speaker 1: Just seeing her come on, seeing her climb on M
Speaker 1: d M A was like, I mean into my mind.
Speaker 1: She it was beautiful to begin with, and um and
Speaker 1: full of innocence and joy. And suddenly I realized that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is the chemical of connection. This chemical is not
Speaker 1: to be done alone. When I was alone, I felt
Speaker 1: like I was and rolling alone. I felt like I
Speaker 1: was all dressed up with nowhere to go. It's really
Speaker 1: about connecting with myself but also with another and in
Speaker 1: time many others uh and and uh intentional experiences that
Speaker 1: we curated later on. Well, let me ask you know,
Speaker 1: at one point you say in the book, Charlie that
Speaker 1: that what you love most that that you find that
Speaker 1: you came to recognize the things that you love most
Speaker 1: about Shelley and M. D m A are similar, And
Speaker 1: I wonder, Shelley, would you say the same about Charlie
Speaker 1: and M D m A. What do you mean but similar? Well, Charlie,
Speaker 1: what did you mean by similar? Well, um, that M.
Speaker 1: D m A gets me right in the moment, and
Speaker 1: that's really where Shelley lives. I have a more of
Speaker 1: my mind is heavy and convoluted, and I'm always thinking
Speaker 1: about the past and the future. Shelley is more in
Speaker 1: the here and now, and that's what M. D. M
Speaker 1: A does for me as well. So that's a similarity
Speaker 1: right there. I agree absolutely, m I just wanted to
Speaker 1: say it also for me. At the very first time
Speaker 1: I felt a live. I had been very oppressed, I
Speaker 1: guess between my mother and my ex husband, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden everything well, my little handcuffs were released
Speaker 1: and I felt beautiful. It was just amazing. And the
Speaker 1: drug has continued to work for the two of you.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, after many dozens of because now you're using it.
Speaker 1: I think you said in the book, try three or
Speaker 1: four times a year. And if you've been together for
Speaker 1: over twenty years, well we've been We've done about eight
Speaker 1: roles together in the experience, basically correct in the last
Speaker 1: twenty years. Yes, And you know, another similarity is that
Speaker 1: M D m A gets me and other people I've
Speaker 1: met into a state of complete innocence, like a child,
Speaker 1: like just happy to be alive and be with somebody
Speaker 1: else that they like, just very simple and innocent and joyful.
Speaker 1: And Shelley is uh really I experienced her as a
Speaker 1: very her spirit is is very innocent and joyful. So
Speaker 1: that's another way that there they are similar. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, what really stands out for me in your
Speaker 1: book is the ways in which you can I mean,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about the ways you which can m d
Speaker 1: m A to being a psychotherapist, but it's about the
Speaker 1: notion of healthy aging. I mean you you you specifically
Speaker 1: say healthy aging is not just for older people, um,
Speaker 1: but also for younger people as well. But you know here,
Speaker 1: I mean there's a sense in which I'm reading your book,
Speaker 1: and I mean, I mean here we are you and
Speaker 1: I were too, you know, bald headed, white goateed senior
Speaker 1: citizens right dealing with aging in various ways and also
Speaker 1: deeply immersed in are you more than I perhaps been
Speaker 1: in a in a psychedelic community in New York and
Speaker 1: more broadly right and the issues around aging, you know,
Speaker 1: as our body's age, as all sorts of things age
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But you talk about the role
Speaker 1: of m d m A and healthy aging is absolutely
Speaker 1: pivot ingredient to making aging work. Well, so just um
Speaker 1: a little more about that. I've learned that and this
Speaker 1: I really only learned through uh having all these experiences
Speaker 1: over the years with m d m A. It seems
Speaker 1: to have a cumulative effect, at least for me. Uh,
Speaker 1: so many experiences of being for four or five, six, seven,
Speaker 1: eight hours feeling completely ageless, giving me a sense of
Speaker 1: what it's like to uh feel like really ten thirty
Speaker 1: forty years younger than I am. For that period of time,
Speaker 1: I can dance like I'm not even dancing, I'm being
Speaker 1: danced like the m D m A is the puppeteer
Speaker 1: and I at the marionette and I'm and I'm being
Speaker 1: danced and I'm moving to so light on my feet. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it helped me realize that aging is that I've
Speaker 1: been brainwashed about it. I think we all have, you know,
Speaker 1: like the brainwashing goes like this past age five, your
Speaker 1: stock goes down a point a year in terms of
Speaker 1: your of your worth into society or socially. Uh. And
Speaker 1: so that's why we are all on a hell bent
Speaker 1: mission to try to say, oh, I'm not old, I'm
Speaker 1: young at hard like old is old itself is a
Speaker 1: dirty word that's like ridiculous uh and and oppressive. Uh. So,
Speaker 1: I you know, somebody looks at me now and they say, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you look about sixties sixty five. I want
Speaker 1: to shake them up, and they'll say, excuse me, I'm
Speaker 1: about to be seventy four years old, and I earned
Speaker 1: every year, and I'm happy and proud to be this age.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be mistaken for younger, as if
Speaker 1: that's some sort of compliment. It's not a compliment. That's
Speaker 1: actually a backhanded insult. When somebody says you look good
Speaker 1: for your age, I'm sorry, you look good for a
Speaker 1: and fill in the blank with any other demographic and
Speaker 1: it would be an insult. But but you look good
Speaker 1: for your age means that, um, you don't look as
Speaker 1: old as you really are, as if that's supposed to
Speaker 1: be uh, make you more valuable in some way. So
Speaker 1: I realized through doing M D M A a a lot
Speaker 1: that all this was oppressing me, and that at any
Speaker 1: age in my life, I am every age. In other words,
Speaker 1: and it may help me get in touch with my
Speaker 1: eight year old, my eighteen year old, my twenty eight
Speaker 1: year old, and I can do that when I'm sober,
Speaker 1: because my inner child, or my inner eighteen year old,
Speaker 1: on my inner thirty year old has has thanks to
Speaker 1: tell me and thanks to remind me of and that
Speaker 1: that's vitality and spontaneity that I had then is still
Speaker 1: available to me. And so M m A has really
Speaker 1: helped me across the adult lifespan. Mm hmm. Well, for
Speaker 1: our listeners, let me just read a few lines from
Speaker 1: the book. From his book Listening to Ecstasy, he says,
Speaker 1: at one point, there are two boxes in this world
Speaker 1: one needs to avoid. His best one can the box
Speaker 1: they put you in when you die, and then when
Speaker 1: they try to put you in when you're alive. I
Speaker 1: found the best way to delay the former is to
Speaker 1: live a life outside the ladder. And at another point
Speaker 1: he goes he describes m d m A as an
Speaker 1: emotional decongested and says, I found my ability to appreciate
Speaker 1: and benefit from medicines m d m A ripens with
Speaker 1: age that for him, it's a chemical hedge against feeling
Speaker 1: like aging's victim and against age related fear. Here we
Speaker 1: have not an antidote, but a solve, a tonic, a
Speaker 1: rejuvenating vacation that can replenish the fountain of one's youth. Shelley,
Speaker 1: the same for you. Absolutely, when I roll, I do
Speaker 1: become age, lists I don't think of how old I am.
Speaker 1: And because even when I'm not rolling, I still my
Speaker 1: brain that's still feel young. I mean, I'll tell you
Speaker 1: in reading your book. Part of I had really almost
Speaker 1: two kind of emotional reactions to it. One was how
Speaker 1: much it reminded me of what I loved about M
Speaker 1: D M A H in my relationships in the past,
Speaker 1: you know, in the role it played that you know,
Speaker 1: in my relationship with my first wife, where I think,
Speaker 1: you know, we were at the verge of divorce and
Speaker 1: we did it, and it was really eye opening and
Speaker 1: more than eye opening, soul opening, and I even though
Speaker 1: it didn't result in saving our marriage, it helped us
Speaker 1: to a softer landing, and then in subsequent relationships it
Speaker 1: was just this incredibly valuable tool. And also, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of talking things through, in terms of being
Speaker 1: clear with one, of being able to not just say
Speaker 1: things well, but here things well. And I also noticed
Speaker 1: even the very first time I did it, about being
Speaker 1: in my body. It wasn't I burst out. Well, I
Speaker 1: guess there was some dancing there, I mean, but I
Speaker 1: remember feeling the energy. I always felt that the energy
Speaker 1: of my body was very very much in my torso
Speaker 1: and I never felt all that grounded. And the first
Speaker 1: time I did M D M A I could almost
Speaker 1: feel the energy pushing itself down my legs to kind
Speaker 1: of become more grounded. And then on the music. I
Speaker 1: remember the for the music we put on, it was
Speaker 1: something called Earth Tribe Rhythm. It was this wonderful dancing music,
Speaker 1: this drumming and electronic music. UM, that was just you know,
Speaker 1: just inspiring and just with you know, dance like crazy
Speaker 1: the same way that you're describing. But in the book
Speaker 1: you talk about some other things. You talk about about
Speaker 1: music and a good sound system, you talk about anchoring.
Speaker 1: UM say something more first of all about what what
Speaker 1: music goes well with what and why? Well, it depends
Speaker 1: what you want to do. UM. A comedian once said,
Speaker 1: I heard him on the TV said with M d M,
Speaker 1: A people like to dance to E d M. And
Speaker 1: he says, you know what E d M stands for.
Speaker 1: It means everyone's doing molly. So I like the d M.
Speaker 1: Electronic dance music, of course is what it really stands for.
Speaker 1: And because that's for dancing, uh and also for me
Speaker 1: good old rock and roll. But for if I'm not uh,
Speaker 1: if I'm feeling more calm and uh and just hanging
Speaker 1: out with my love, UM, we might put on some
Speaker 1: Buddha bar or trip hop exotic Buddha Lounge in different
Speaker 1: playlists like that, and shall you share the same taste
Speaker 1: with Charlie in this matter? Oh yeah. When I first
Speaker 1: met him, I pretty much I raised two children, so
Speaker 1: I was listening to a lot of kids stuff and
Speaker 1: listening to show tunes. So I introduced him to show tunes.
Speaker 1: He introduced me to old fashioned rock and roll, and
Speaker 1: little by little over the years we started playing with
Speaker 1: different kinds of music and we found bootleannge for soft
Speaker 1: for like Edgier music, or or bootle Lounge boudle bar,
Speaker 1: which is softer. It's also very sexual, so that's nice. Well,
Speaker 1: so I want to get into the sexual thing in
Speaker 1: a moment. But what about I'm mixing M D M
Speaker 1: A with other drugs, whether it's I guess well, a
Speaker 1: candy flipping when you do with LSD or some people
Speaker 1: have coning with our wana either before during year after.
Speaker 1: What's your thoughts about about all of that? Well, Um,
Speaker 1: New Year's Eve we candy flipped, which we like to
Speaker 1: do if we can't make it to the Fish concert
Speaker 1: because they want two dollars a ticket. Um, we can't
Speaker 1: make it to Fish on New Year's Eve at Madison Square, garden,
Speaker 1: then we'll we'll candy flip at home with M D
Speaker 1: M A and LSD and tends to put us over
Speaker 1: the edge. Really, it tends to put us in a
Speaker 1: very blissful, blissful, deeply sensual space. But even then, if
Speaker 1: if we're just doing M D M A and we
Speaker 1: want to get it on um, which I always do
Speaker 1: with my ageless angel Um, we will wait till the
Speaker 1: end of the role because it's hard for Uh. It's
Speaker 1: it's it's I just punned there as a bad pun
Speaker 1: It's it's difficult, not it's hard for a man to
Speaker 1: stay hard on M D M A. At least that's
Speaker 1: the experience of a lot of men. So we wait
Speaker 1: till the end of the role. As we're coming down
Speaker 1: and add cannabis to it. Um. Shelley will take an edible,
Speaker 1: which he has a lot very valuable things to talk
Speaker 1: about about that, and I will just take some smoke,
Speaker 1: some sativa, and then we can have what I'd like
Speaker 1: to call sextasy, where we're just having an amazing sexual
Speaker 1: encounter at the end of a role. So let me
Speaker 1: shift here to Shelly, So Shelly um in terms of
Speaker 1: cannabis and M d M A and these other things.
Speaker 1: I mean throughout this book, and obviously you must have
Speaker 1: given your okay for Charlie to do this. He describes
Speaker 1: you as this incredibly sexual, sensual or gasmic you know,
Speaker 1: evermore so as your age. I mean, it's a wonderful
Speaker 1: description something. What element It reminded me of part of
Speaker 1: the things that Anne Schilgren writes about when she does
Speaker 1: two CB with UH with Sasha. You know, I remember,
Speaker 1: I think she talks about doing two c B at
Speaker 1: one point and and just totally going through this horrific depression,
Speaker 1: ego destruction, and then Sasha appears at the door and
Speaker 1: the thing does a one eight and flips into this
Speaker 1: utter beauty and she has the most the biggest, most
Speaker 1: sustained orgasms of her life. She thereby, by the way,
Speaker 1: said a lot of people up for for failure when
Speaker 1: it came to like jumping, let's do two c B
Speaker 1: and have sex, because people, if you could go into
Speaker 1: that way, often it's just not gonna work that way. Um.
Speaker 1: But but I'm curious, Shelley, So when Charlie is describing
Speaker 1: you in this way, I'm assuming that you verified everything
Speaker 1: he wrote about you in this book. So when it
Speaker 1: comes to these different drugs, um and in terms of sexuality,
Speaker 1: and I understand that you're oftentimes you know that you're
Speaker 1: part of what you do is actually teaching younger women
Speaker 1: about learning about their sexuality. So tell us about your
Speaker 1: sexuality and especially as you've got it older, and the
Speaker 1: various medicines or substances that you're using. Do you have
Speaker 1: about a week, Well, not exactly, but how about the highlights? Okay,
Speaker 1: the highlights. First of all, I found when we lived
Speaker 1: in our first apartment, I was just starting to go
Speaker 1: through menopause, and uh, we could hear the people in
Speaker 1: the next in the next department, which meant they could
Speaker 1: hear us. So I realized I I was very controlled
Speaker 1: and I was I was sexy, I was sexual, but
Speaker 1: not until we moved to our apartment now where we
Speaker 1: have another building next to our building, so setting the
Speaker 1: setting for me changed completely and that made me feel free.
Speaker 1: I could be more verbal, which does help. It's only
Speaker 1: in about two years and I've been playing with edible
Speaker 1: cannabis because I have a vocal cord problem and my
Speaker 1: doctor told me to use edible because the they was
Speaker 1: causing problems. Well, I just started using cannabis at the
Speaker 1: edible and it changed me completely. I am They say
Speaker 1: that the brain is the largest sex organ in our body,
Speaker 1: and I've been taking advantage of that. Uh. It focuses
Speaker 1: on me, and many times I will take it before
Speaker 1: Charlie is ready for me. And I just played with music.
Speaker 1: I'll listen to music, I'll start focusing singing it on
Speaker 1: different parts of my body. I'll start touching different parts
Speaker 1: of my body. I'm learning more and more about my
Speaker 1: body even now, and I feel that that a lot
Speaker 1: of women don't know their body. They don't know it's
Speaker 1: a lot of them don't even know that they're What
Speaker 1: kind of orgasms there are? How many orgasms? I called
Speaker 1: my little ones organs. I have lots of organs. And
Speaker 1: I started playing with music where I would listen to
Speaker 1: different kinds of music and as it would vibrate, I
Speaker 1: would focus the vibration down below. And I found I
Speaker 1: could have an orgasm without touching myself, just using the
Speaker 1: music in my brain. And when people hear that, they're like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. Because I have to use edibles which
Speaker 1: stay in your body longer, and I think really affect
Speaker 1: the body. Maybe differently. I can't talk for people who
Speaker 1: smoke or you know, babe whatever. I can only talk
Speaker 1: about edibles. But yeah, it's some. It's it's very interesting
Speaker 1: and I'm still learning. And I'll tell you a very
Speaker 1: quick story. When I was in nursing school back in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, I started nineteen six seventy a gynecollege.
Speaker 1: Just came to talk to the whole freshman class because
Speaker 1: we were all getting you know, we're eighteen years old,
Speaker 1: nineteen years all living in New York City. He was
Speaker 1: talking to us about the birth control pill, and then
Speaker 1: he talked about something called the pelvic tilt. Now I
Speaker 1: was a virgin. I really knew nothing about sex. A
Speaker 1: few months ago. Uh, during sex, I realized I was
Speaker 1: doing the pelvic tilt he was talking about fifty years ago,
Speaker 1: and it meant just moving my body up so that
Speaker 1: he was rubbing against my cletterest and giving me an orgasm.
Speaker 1: M hm. So that that was like, whoa, we know
Speaker 1: he took me this. You just came across recently. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what a wonderful discovery. Yes, I do cannabis every week,
Speaker 1: but but I a New Year's Eve when we candy flipped. Uh,
Speaker 1: I ended up taking a little piece of edible and
Speaker 1: because the m d M may seem to be overpowering
Speaker 1: the LSD and we wanted to have sex, So I
Speaker 1: took a little piece of edible and about it. Within
Speaker 1: an hour, all of a sudden, the tapestry over our
Speaker 1: bed is moving and I'm like, holy shit, I'm treating
Speaker 1: And Charlie's like, oh, you mean the the uh did
Speaker 1: the cannabis help the the m d M. A. I'm
Speaker 1: like no, And I only took a little piece of acid.
Speaker 1: I said it activated the acid. For the first time,
Speaker 1: I was quote unquote tripping balls. I had never done
Speaker 1: that that much before. It was very, very different. Uh.
Speaker 1: Sex at that point I couldn't do because I could
Speaker 1: barely speak. So we'll be talking more after we hear
Speaker 1: this ad in the book right while you talk about
Speaker 1: the importance of anchoring, right that during the NDEMA experience,
Speaker 1: that one's getting the emotional psychological insights and that one
Speaker 1: wants to kind of be conscious at that time of
Speaker 1: how one can come back to those places. But I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: both for you and Shelley, whether that's also true about sexuality,
Speaker 1: like even leaving a part of cannabis. Um. Does one
Speaker 1: get to places with the LSD or or M D
Speaker 1: m A and sexuality that one can then anchor and
Speaker 1: think about how long comes back to those that space
Speaker 1: without the use of substances. Um, you know, in subsequent days, weeks,
Speaker 1: or the rest of one's life. Yes. Um. And one
Speaker 1: great way to anchor the experience is with the use
Speaker 1: of music. And this is described in the book. But
Speaker 1: also when you're high on whatever substance and you get
Speaker 1: into a piece of music that you love, and if
Speaker 1: it's a piece of music that makes you feel erotic sensual, uh,
Speaker 1: you can make note of that and remember that and
Speaker 1: then afterwards, uh, days or weeks later, when you're a
Speaker 1: sober uh, you can play that music again and turn
Speaker 1: down the lights and light some candles and and um,
Speaker 1: hang out with your partner or yourself and get into
Speaker 1: that same sensual or sexual mood. Shellyam, is it that
Speaker 1: way for you as well? I mean, is there a
Speaker 1: sense of that oh my god factors saying I can
Speaker 1: I can get back here without these drugs? Um? Yes,
Speaker 1: and no. When Charlie proposed to me, I was ecstatic
Speaker 1: obviously pose to me on a Friday that next day,
Speaker 1: we had planned to go up to a state park upstate,
Speaker 1: which we did, and we took M D M A
Speaker 1: and I listened to a song by Enya called Flora's
Speaker 1: Secret because we were like the only ones in this
Speaker 1: field the sun was shining and Floria's Secrets about flowers.
Speaker 1: I listened to it about twenty times while under the
Speaker 1: influence of M D M A. Even today, twenty some
Speaker 1: odd years later, I or fifteen seventeen years later, I
Speaker 1: could listen into that song and be brought back to
Speaker 1: the feeling of lying under the sun being on M
Speaker 1: D M A even now. Uh, that's the most impressive
Speaker 1: one that I find. It still amazes me. Uh. There
Speaker 1: is some psychedelic songs that Charlie plays sometimes, like the
Speaker 1: Chambers Brothers. Uh Time has Come today. It's a very
Speaker 1: hut Charlie trippy song. IM talking about the long version,
Speaker 1: the FM version of eleven minute version. Time has Come Today.
Speaker 1: It's that one of the best psychedelic songs ever ever produced.
Speaker 1: And when I hear that song, it just puts me
Speaker 1: in the mood no matter what I'm on or if anything,
Speaker 1: What a blessing this has been from me? If you
Speaker 1: ask me an age thirty, forty or fifty, what my
Speaker 1: sex life would be as a seventy three year old man,
Speaker 1: I would have frowned and said, I dread what would happen?
Speaker 1: What will happen? But um, I was sex life keeps ripening,
Speaker 1: keeps blossoming. Um and my wife, my this this I
Speaker 1: called her my ageless Angels. She's more sexual than ever before.
Speaker 1: So um, I'm just uh so blessed to have found her. Well,
Speaker 1: let me ask this question. I mean, Shelley, Well, you're
Speaker 1: describing is obviously just you know, um, you start using
Speaker 1: edible two years ago, but that's when Charlie's book came out,
Speaker 1: and he's already describing you as this incredibly sexual being
Speaker 1: before that, and also about M D m A. So
Speaker 1: I'm curious, Shelley, what about with M D M A.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I mean Charlie described and it's
Speaker 1: been sometimes my experience as well, that M D M
Speaker 1: A could lead to really exquisite um sex, although virtually
Speaker 1: never ending for me at least in an orgasm, that
Speaker 1: it is almost impossible to orgasm, but that one could
Speaker 1: get an incredibly sensual, you know, loving sexy, just delicious
Speaker 1: delightful place. Um, but I'm what about from your perspective
Speaker 1: in terms of M d m A and sex. Uh Okay,
Speaker 1: One time at a music festival, I was standing up
Speaker 1: and swaying to the music, and apparently I was rubbing
Speaker 1: my legs together. I had an orgasm. I was I
Speaker 1: was on m d m A at the time. Yes.
Speaker 1: Add if we are together in bed and the m
Speaker 1: d m A is still very active, um, the best
Speaker 1: thing I can do for her is go down on
Speaker 1: her um at that time because it might be hard
Speaker 1: for me to get or stay hard, but I can
Speaker 1: do other things. You know. I really appreciate your sharing
Speaker 1: the story is here. On the other hand, I also
Speaker 1: wonder you know, I mean, Charlie, I have to say
Speaker 1: in reading your book, and you know, you're offering a
Speaker 1: lot of wisdom and guidance about healthy aging and about sexuality.
Speaker 1: But it also, you know, I keep having this you know,
Speaker 1: questioning thing. Well, but Charlie, maybe you just met the
Speaker 1: perfect woman to have this relationship with and it's less
Speaker 1: about the drug and it's more about the woman. And
Speaker 1: obviously the drug is helping these things along. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: but but I mean, you do you talk in the
Speaker 1: book about you know, for the first two in your
Speaker 1: twenties sorties and forties, for you was always finding some
Speaker 1: woman who was highly intellectual and was all gonna you know,
Speaker 1: ups and downs mood wise, and wasn't utterly gonna be
Speaker 1: There's gonna be a lot of you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of excitement, but a lot of grief. And then you
Speaker 1: describe meeting Shelley, who was just this magical partner for you.
Speaker 1: And I wonder about you know, if if you have
Speaker 1: I don't want to have to go think about this,
Speaker 1: but assuming you had never met Shelly, I mean with
Speaker 1: this whole evolution in your life with M D m
Speaker 1: A and sexual I mean, could it could you even
Speaker 1: envision it having happened? Or was she just the key
Speaker 1: to all of this? Uh? You you have you make
Speaker 1: a good point. I mean, she Shelly and I are
Speaker 1: unusually compatible. Um. But the thing is Ethan that I
Speaker 1: think the age ism, the internalized ideas that we uh
Speaker 1: that we inhale from this culture about what to expect
Speaker 1: from ourselves and our partners or our future partners as
Speaker 1: we age, is debilitating because we expect less in terms
Speaker 1: of sexual connection, and you know, often women they go
Speaker 1: through menopause, and many women feel like I'm done with sex.
Speaker 1: That's it. I don't want to have sex anymore. And
Speaker 1: that's obviously a very valid choice. All we're saying is
Speaker 1: that there's another option, uh, and that couples don't have
Speaker 1: to settle for a sexless marriage if they don't want to,
Speaker 1: if they're having emotional troubles because they're fighting and and
Speaker 1: and and that gets reflected in lack of a sex life. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: then you need couples counseling because I've found that, you know,
Speaker 1: it can it can get better with couples counseling. Shelley
Speaker 1: and I have been to a couple's counselor many times
Speaker 1: because we hit a human We hit snags along the way. Um,
Speaker 1: but but we are unusually compatible. And uh, sex is
Speaker 1: to have a sexually alive marriage is possible across the
Speaker 1: whole adult lifespan. And you know, there's a whole spectrum
Speaker 1: of sexual of sexuality between two people. It's not just
Speaker 1: about intercourse. It can be about affection. Shelley and I
Speaker 1: are affectionate, uh, through the day and through the week
Speaker 1: with each other. We keep that aliveness there, that connection there,
Speaker 1: and that was influenced not only by our strong love
Speaker 1: for each other, but by M D M A that
Speaker 1: helped us stay in the moment and realize that our
Speaker 1: bodies are where we live. And when I touched her,
Speaker 1: I feel her touching me, and uh and it it
Speaker 1: brings me out of whatever craziness I'm rumination I have
Speaker 1: in my head. Um she I wake up in the
Speaker 1: morning and I'm full of a thousand thoughts. I walk
Speaker 1: into the kitchen, she stands up and wants to hug me,
Speaker 1: and my day is made at that point because she
Speaker 1: just squeezes all the nonsense out of me at that
Speaker 1: moment that I come to and I'm really awake man
Speaker 1: for the rest of the day. You know, Charlie. One
Speaker 1: thing you just spend a lot of time on in
Speaker 1: the latter part of the book is dealing on the
Speaker 1: one hand, with agism in our society, and not just
Speaker 1: asism in terms of young people kind of making assumptions
Speaker 1: about people who look older, but also in the ways
Speaker 1: in which those assumptions are internalized. And then you describe
Speaker 1: how you and Shelly do something which I can relate
Speaker 1: to a lot, which is you oftentimes find yourself in
Speaker 1: environments UM parties, things like that, UM where you're far
Speaker 1: and away the oldest people there right where the most
Speaker 1: of the people in their twenties or thirties, and there
Speaker 1: you are in your late sixties or early seventies. And
Speaker 1: what that's like and what you describe I think is
Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, the lack of inhibition on
Speaker 1: both your part and even more so Shelley's part. Um
Speaker 1: that's actually really rejuvenating and and and and and sort
Speaker 1: of you know, just stimulates a kind of renewed vitality
Speaker 1: where you can feel your younger self, and even your
Speaker 1: body for at least for those hours, can feel dramatically
Speaker 1: younger than it actually is. When we are with younger people,
Speaker 1: and it's often with people in the psychedelic community. UM,
Speaker 1: suddenly those old notions of I call them apartheid, of
Speaker 1: of of age segregation that exists in a town like
Speaker 1: New York City, it falls away. And the benefit is
Speaker 1: too way. It's in both directions. We benefit by being
Speaker 1: around younger people who are filled with vitality and a
Speaker 1: freshness that you ordinarily don't see in sixties and seventies
Speaker 1: and eighty year olds. So we benefit from that. They
Speaker 1: benefit from seeing us. Uh. Sometimes they want to, you know,
Speaker 1: just be around us to gain whatever wisdom they think
Speaker 1: we might have. UM. But also they want to be
Speaker 1: around us because they see the love between us. It's
Speaker 1: palpable and it gives them hope for their future. If
Speaker 1: they're single, it gives them hope to have a relationship
Speaker 1: that that works like always does UM. But if the
Speaker 1: couple they can see that, yeah, the love can keep
Speaker 1: going and keep growing through the decades. But I mean,
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're trying to send a message to that.
Speaker 1: On the one hand, the psychedelics community is quite accepting
Speaker 1: of this age spectrum. But even so, to be in
Speaker 1: a kind of parting environment is UM is unusual. And
Speaker 1: you guys are sort of role models and you're talking
Speaker 1: back the fact that seeing yourselves is as as owning
Speaker 1: the notion of yourself as elders and even you know,
Speaker 1: not quite putting into people's face, but saying we are
Speaker 1: elder is there's something too. So I mean, when did
Speaker 1: that first hit you that you're an elder? That you
Speaker 1: when we would go to a rave and people would
Speaker 1: come up to us invariably and say, I'm so glad
Speaker 1: you're here. You give me hope. They use a different
Speaker 1: line sometimes than the one your friend got. He said,
Speaker 1: You're what I want to be when I don't grow up.
Speaker 1: So people are grateful to us for for showing up
Speaker 1: and showing that it's possible to to keep the party
Speaker 1: going across the whole lifespan show. You share this feeling
Speaker 1: of being an elder in the community. Oh, absolutely, I've had.
Speaker 1: I had a woman come over to me back in October.
Speaker 1: We were at a party and uh, she wanted to
Speaker 1: know what you in her like early thirties. Do I
Speaker 1: have any advice for her? And I said, and I
Speaker 1: hadn't think because nobody has really asked me about advice.
Speaker 1: And I said, go with your gut feelings, because I
Speaker 1: have learned that if the gut is telling me one thing,
Speaker 1: it's usually the right thing. I like to say that
Speaker 1: the best part of the psychedelic community isn't the psychedelics,
Speaker 1: it's the community. It's the people who are drawn to
Speaker 1: these medicines are among the most open hearted, open minded,
Speaker 1: curious seeking people that I would ever want to meet.
Speaker 1: And so we've we've looked out in this way and
Speaker 1: to be elder is it just seems um like, I
Speaker 1: feel like we're in the right place at the right time,
Speaker 1: especially in the middle of a renaissance. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: fab lists. Well, you know, in the book, Charlie, you
Speaker 1: put this in some historical context. I mean, at one
Speaker 1: point you say, I wonder if my shift in drugs
Speaker 1: of choice from cocaine when I was younger to m
Speaker 1: d m A corresponds to a larger shift in the zeitgeist,
Speaker 1: one to a more feminine ethic. Consider the code names
Speaker 1: for these two drugs, blow and molly, And then you
Speaker 1: talk about you know, two key moments in two thousand
Speaker 1: and four and five. I think it was first when
Speaker 1: Peter Jettings, the ABC News correspondent, does his special about
Speaker 1: m DMA called Ecstasy Rising. And then around the same
Speaker 1: time when Alex Gray, the famous Psychedelsis painter, and his
Speaker 1: wife Allison, also a painter, you know, creates the Chapel
Speaker 1: of Sacred Mirrors uh kasum c O s M. And
Speaker 1: when that opens in New York and sort of opens
Speaker 1: up a culture. So it does seem that there was
Speaker 1: I mean, here you and Shelley had what met in
Speaker 1: the late nineties or around two thousand and then a
Speaker 1: few years later there's this kind of both you know,
Speaker 1: public media opening with with Peter Jettings thing and then
Speaker 1: with Alex and Alison Gray doing Cosum. I mean when
Speaker 1: you reflect back on that time, I mean, what did
Speaker 1: it feel like then or was it you know, did
Speaker 1: you were you just in the right place and right
Speaker 1: time to be you know, part of this wave or
Speaker 1: it was just part of a broader zeitgeist that was happening.
Speaker 1: You know that it was the world, like I say,
Speaker 1: were in the right place at the right time, and
Speaker 1: we still are um. Cosum opened in October first, two
Speaker 1: thousand and four. I tell the whole story in the
Speaker 1: book UH and UH and and Roland Griffith's was doing
Speaker 1: this breakthrough work at UH at Johns Hopkins UH with
Speaker 1: realizing that psilocybin can have these terrific beneficial effects for people,
Speaker 1: and that was getting That was the first wave of
Speaker 1: publicity that LSD or magic mushrooms or m D M
Speaker 1: a UH that had been damned by the by the
Speaker 1: government than the culture are actually solutions. They're not drug problems,
Speaker 1: that drug solutions, and that they the narrative around these
Speaker 1: substances began to change back then, and don't don't forget
Speaker 1: that in twenty in two thousand and three, after Existas
Speaker 1: Rosing was when we started our first polums where we
Speaker 1: were able to a little Yeah, that's a very important
Speaker 1: part of our life. Yeah, people listening to go back
Speaker 1: to what you were just talking about there about community
Speaker 1: that caused them Chapel secret inspires a kind of pop
Speaker 1: up parties. You guys have your first gathering and that
Speaker 1: you know, and and that's part of the places where
Speaker 1: you're interacting much younger people. But it's clear, Charlie that
Speaker 1: you're very conscious and I guess really both of you,
Speaker 1: you and Shelley in terms of bringing people together, you know,
Speaker 1: emphasizing the value of community. Sometimes this involves M D
Speaker 1: m A. Sometimes it is not, But just you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm really impressed, and I know you've invited
Speaker 1: me numerous times to to come to one of these gatherings,
Speaker 1: and I I do intend effects sooner than later to
Speaker 1: say yes to that um. But say more about these
Speaker 1: gatherings and their apportance. And sure, as I said at
Speaker 1: the beginning, you describe you three loves, right, Shelley, M
Speaker 1: D m A and the communities that you're part of,
Speaker 1: so talk about community. Well, Um, so we wanted to
Speaker 1: host here. MAPS had sent out an email saying, anyone
Speaker 1: who wants to host a screening of the Peter Jennings
Speaker 1: UH interview a show called Ecstasy Rising in two thousand
Speaker 1: and four, just let us know. So we let them know,
Speaker 1: and they sent a bunch of people our way and
Speaker 1: we all watched this together. That was our first pot luck. Um,
Speaker 1: we all watched together and um, we we're talking till
Speaker 1: like one or two am in the morning because we
Speaker 1: had found each other. So every year after that, we
Speaker 1: who would host a pot luck in our apartment, reaching
Speaker 1: out two MAPS to say, you know, tell people in
Speaker 1: the New York City vicinity, and you know that we
Speaker 1: are opening our homes to UH to other MAPS members.
Speaker 1: And over the years it would grow and finally we
Speaker 1: couldn't contain it till one night anymore. It grew to
Speaker 1: two nights, and then three nights. Now these years we
Speaker 1: have people coming in over four nights, people per night
Speaker 1: from the MAPS and the larger community to UH here
Speaker 1: in New York City, the psychedelic community. And these are
Speaker 1: just blissful events because and they're sober events, UH, except
Speaker 1: for a little wine or beer. That's it's a pot
Speaker 1: luck and it's sober, and we're talking about the topic
Speaker 1: that people agree on beforehand that they want to talk about,
Speaker 1: like sex, drugs, and intimacy or whatever the topic is.
Speaker 1: And people get to meet and friendships get born on
Speaker 1: these nights that friendships that have lasted for for years
Speaker 1: even decades now UH. This coming year into three, we
Speaker 1: will we will be celebrating our twenty anniversary our potluck dinners,
Speaker 1: and we're going to do something special to do this
Speaker 1: and get a whole a whole lot of people together
Speaker 1: for a night, maybe rent the boat to go around Manhattan.
Speaker 1: I don't know what we're gonna do, but we usually
Speaker 1: do this in in UH later in the year. But
Speaker 1: we've also hosted besides the potlucks, we've hosted definitely non
Speaker 1: sober arrance is UH in Prospect Park where we're just
Speaker 1: gather people together, twenty five people, thirty five people, forty
Speaker 1: five people and to the outside world, it just looks
Speaker 1: like a bunch of people having a picnic except for
Speaker 1: the occasional cuddle puddle, but we're just having a blissful
Speaker 1: time together for the day and for people who participate
Speaker 1: in that, and anyone can do this, by the way,
Speaker 1: any listener of this show, Uh, you know people or
Speaker 1: you can you can find people who will do this
Speaker 1: with you. And it's a wonderful way to get to
Speaker 1: know people. There's no better way to spend the day,
Speaker 1: uh than rolling together on M D m A and
Speaker 1: just getting to know each other. And because as you know,
Speaker 1: M D M A opens the heart and opens the
Speaker 1: mind and just to make that connection. People want to
Speaker 1: stay connected after these group experiences. For here is UM
Speaker 1: and they do. It's a great way to to make
Speaker 1: new friendships and it's been a wonderful blessing for Shelly
Speaker 1: and I. Charlie, is there any advice you can tell
Speaker 1: the listeners about how they actually can are there are
Speaker 1: there websites or anything else to figure out how you
Speaker 1: tap into this community in your local area? Well, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: there are many websites, UM certainly Uh if somebody wants
Speaker 1: to tap into the community, they can give me, uh,
Speaker 1: send me an email. You can you can get into
Speaker 1: my website and listening to ecstasy dot com or Charlie
Speaker 1: Wininger dot com and uh C J Wininger at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com is my email address. But they're also like
Speaker 1: here in New York. Uh, there's a Brooklyn Psychedelic Society
Speaker 1: which is very popular. And the Psychedelic Society's all over
Speaker 1: the country. You just have to do some digging. They're
Speaker 1: not underground. They are It's not a place to go
Speaker 1: to get high. It's not a place to go to
Speaker 1: find a source. It's a place to go to meet
Speaker 1: other people. And uh sometimes it's a meet up dot
Speaker 1: org or you can start your own psychedelic society in
Speaker 1: your town. Believe me, there are people within ten miles
Speaker 1: of you, lots of people within ten miles of you
Speaker 1: who are doing psychedelics and they're just keeping it quiet
Speaker 1: like you might be keeping it quiet. But they're out
Speaker 1: there and they want to meet you. So there are
Speaker 1: friendships waiting to be made. Let's take a break here
Speaker 1: and go to an air no try. I want to
Speaker 1: take up another issue though with you, which is you
Speaker 1: also describe some history of struggling with substance abuse, with
Speaker 1: cocaine and with amphetamine and having a father was alcoholic
Speaker 1: and and you also then talk about how M D
Speaker 1: m A has helped you in this regard that if
Speaker 1: you know, whereas you have to be careful. There are
Speaker 1: people who can get addicted to M d m A.
Speaker 1: It is possible, and people do abuse it in that way. Um,
Speaker 1: but it also can be helpful. So just say more
Speaker 1: about that. Well, um, yeah, it's a whole story. But um,
Speaker 1: I was struggling with cocaine for a while and the
Speaker 1: best definition of cocaine I ever heard was Robin Williams
Speaker 1: calling it the devil's dandruff. Um it's just for some
Speaker 1: people it works, I'm sure, but for me, it it
Speaker 1: worked me. Um, cocaine was doing me. I wasn't doing cocaine. Um,
Speaker 1: it was. It was abusing me. And I realized that
Speaker 1: I had to quickly quickly make a choice. It was
Speaker 1: gonna win or I was going to win. So UM,
Speaker 1: I found two key, two keys, one illegal and one
Speaker 1: not legal. Uh. The not legal key for me was
Speaker 1: M d M A because I soon discovered that M
Speaker 1: d M A was a far far superior medicine because
Speaker 1: it lasts longer, because it doesn't have addictive qualities like
Speaker 1: cocaine notoriously does not everyone gets addicted to cocaine who
Speaker 1: uses it, but a lot of people do. I I
Speaker 1: was getting there. Um. Uh. And M D m A
Speaker 1: is not addictive for me and for most people. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it lasts a lot longer, it's a whole lot cheaper,
Speaker 1: it has all kinds of of of benefits. The legal
Speaker 1: route that helped me was very dark chocolate, and I'm
Speaker 1: talking about hundred bitter chocolate. Most people eat chocolate for
Speaker 1: the taste. I eat it for the effect because it
Speaker 1: sends me in just a little bit of the same
Speaker 1: direction of cocaine or M D m A. It's a
Speaker 1: stimulant and it's a mood elevator. And so I am
Speaker 1: now a t alcoholic, which is a perfectly functional addiction
Speaker 1: to have at all. The hundred percent dark chocolate with
Speaker 1: dates in it, and it's just it's just wonderful and
Speaker 1: it it elevates my mood and it helps uh sex
Speaker 1: as well. Uh. And it's um and it's healthy. So
Speaker 1: these things have helped me. I haven't done cocaine in
Speaker 1: what about eleven twelve years now, and so I'm very
Speaker 1: I'm very happy about that, mm hmm. And when you
Speaker 1: think about how you're in D M A use has
Speaker 1: shaped your your approach to being a psychotherapist, I mean
Speaker 1: is it a monumental impact on that or just kind
Speaker 1: of a you know, it's help you refine be more empathic.
Speaker 1: I mean, what are they? What are the key, what's
Speaker 1: the relationship there? It's helped me become a better therapist,
Speaker 1: because I mean I was fairly empathetic to begin with,
Speaker 1: but of course m d m A helps amplify one's
Speaker 1: uh proclivity towards empathy. And having had eighty roles, I
Speaker 1: know what feels like in my heart to empathize with
Speaker 1: somebody physically UM, and I can anchor that and bring
Speaker 1: it into the therapy session. I do therapy so but
Speaker 1: the client is sober, and I am sober. But I
Speaker 1: found that the best therapy I can do, that I
Speaker 1: can provide is if I can try to make try
Speaker 1: to create an atmosphere and environment in the therapy room
Speaker 1: that replicates the m d m A experience. And what
Speaker 1: I mean by that is being receptive to the person,
Speaker 1: listening deeply into and through exactly all that they're saying
Speaker 1: and all that they're conveying, really being there uh and
Speaker 1: reflecting back to them what I hear and UH and
Speaker 1: and empathizing and showing compassion as best as I can,
Speaker 1: and when they feel safe, their defenses can come down
Speaker 1: a bit, and when the defenses come down, they can
Speaker 1: come out a bit and risk being vulnerable right there
Speaker 1: in the therapy session, and that's where the healing can
Speaker 1: really start taking place. And when we think about m
Speaker 1: d m A, I mean, obviously the you know, the
Speaker 1: research is being done out by MAPS in terms of
Speaker 1: treating PTSD, and there's all the looking at its value
Speaker 1: in other areas, maybe including a diction, maybe including eating disorders,
Speaker 1: maybe including you know, fear around end of life. But
Speaker 1: when we think about m d m A and helping
Speaker 1: people deal with grief or the grief the loss of
Speaker 1: a loved one, um, what can you say about that?
Speaker 1: How much time do we have? Ethan? I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: also I'm hesitated because you know, I know when when
Speaker 1: when when we all had dinner with some friends last year,
Speaker 1: and Shelly, you told the story about about the loss
Speaker 1: of your son and also about how I think m
Speaker 1: d m A was helpful in dealing with that. But
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know if you want to
Speaker 1: go there. I know it's painful to talk about, So Shelly,
Speaker 1: if you're willing to share that store. I think it
Speaker 1: would be interesting in lightening for our listeners. Okay, so
Speaker 1: I made thirteen. Um, my son died. He was thirty
Speaker 1: nine years old, and this was we already knew that
Speaker 1: we were going to have a group of a group
Speaker 1: role and people were asking was shall we going to
Speaker 1: be in on it? And I said absolutely to use
Speaker 1: M D M A to help me in my grief.
Speaker 1: It could be it could be perfect. So we um.
Speaker 1: We went to Prospect Park in about an hour and
Speaker 1: a half for so into the experience, Charlie called us
Speaker 1: into a circle whoever wanted to participate. There was one
Speaker 1: person who came down from Boston. Actually he had lost
Speaker 1: his mother the same day that I lost my son,
Speaker 1: and he spoke about his mother a little bit. And
Speaker 1: then other people who had lost people in the past
Speaker 1: year had spoken about their people. And then it was
Speaker 1: my turn and um, when somebody had enlarged a photograph
Speaker 1: for me, and when I opened it up and saw
Speaker 1: the photograph, has just started crying a little bit photograph
Speaker 1: of my son. And um. Then Charlie said that what
Speaker 1: he said to the group, that what he didn't tell
Speaker 1: me was that that day that when after I heard
Speaker 1: heard what happened. He and I, Charlie and I were
Speaker 1: sitting on the couch and Charlie said, he felt Scott.
Speaker 1: My son's name was Scott. He felt Scott's presence in
Speaker 1: the in the living room. I felt Scott's presence in
Speaker 1: the living room um the day he died, and he
Speaker 1: was hovering above. And this man who I was thirty
Speaker 1: nine years old, who had been suffering all his life
Speaker 1: from mental illness and physical maladies. He was in a
Speaker 1: lot of pain. He was smiling down at the two
Speaker 1: of us, and he said, I'm free. And at that
Speaker 1: when I said that in front of Shelley, to the
Speaker 1: whole group there in Prospect Park, she burst like a
Speaker 1: damn and she began sobbing. And as I was sobbing,
Speaker 1: I could start to feel people energy around me, people
Speaker 1: coming touching my head, my shoulders, my legs, and I
Speaker 1: don't know how long I sobbed. I I kind of
Speaker 1: lost to I wasn't I It wasn't until I don't
Speaker 1: even know how long I sobbed. But then I realized
Speaker 1: I was kind of emptying myself out and because of
Speaker 1: the m D m A, I realized this afterwards, of course,
Speaker 1: because of the M D M A. I was able
Speaker 1: to receive their love and everything because they were on
Speaker 1: M D M A and they were able to give.
Speaker 1: And when I opened my eyes, it was a bit strange.
Speaker 1: I didn't see people at first. I saw I can
Speaker 1: only describe it like spirits, and they were dark, but
Speaker 1: it was I realized. I just felt calm, and when
Speaker 1: I opened my eyes, I finally when it cleared, I
Speaker 1: saw people, and uh, it was beautiful. I just I
Speaker 1: thanked them and said, how it's really helped me start
Speaker 1: my healing. And then I had told Charlie earlier that
Speaker 1: I wanted to dance whatever happens in the circle. I
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen, but I want to
Speaker 1: dance to celebrate life, and that's what we did. Then
Speaker 1: I put some dance music on and we dance, and
Speaker 1: it was really an ecstatic moment because of the M
Speaker 1: D M A. Like Shelly said, um, she could feel
Speaker 1: without hesitation. Just at that moment when she heard me
Speaker 1: say that, Scott said he was free. She could just
Speaker 1: really expel all that grief and let it completely out.
Speaker 1: Were left her empty, and then when she opened her
Speaker 1: eyes she could see all these loving people around her,
Speaker 1: and she could just let herself fill up with their
Speaker 1: love and so the grief got replaced with the love.
Speaker 1: And sure, so Shelley still has has grief for her
Speaker 1: the passing of her son. Of course she will for
Speaker 1: the rest of her life, but she's never been debilitated
Speaker 1: by it because of that moment. It was not just
Speaker 1: M D m A that did it. It was M
Speaker 1: D m A in community and with the intention of
Speaker 1: healing that did it. A few days later, we got
Speaker 1: an email from a friend who was there who said,
Speaker 1: I never want to go to a traditional wake or
Speaker 1: funeral again for the rest of my life. This is
Speaker 1: the way to honor somebody who has passed. This is
Speaker 1: the way to heal those who have felt revealed the
Speaker 1: passing the most. Wow. Well that's uh, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for sharing that story, Charlie and Shelley. So that's
Speaker 1: somewhat somber note. I want to thank you both of
Speaker 1: you for taking the time to have this wonderful conversation
Speaker 1: um and UH with me and my listeners on Psychoactive.
Speaker 1: So thank you ever so much. Charlie, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it,
Speaker 1: or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear
Speaker 1: from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories,
Speaker 1: comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one
Speaker 1: eight three three seven seven nine six that's eight three
Speaker 1: three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive
Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Ethan natal Man. You can also find contact information in
Speaker 1: our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman's
Speaker 1: produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers
Speaker 1: are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronotsky
Speaker 1: from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by
Speaker 1: Ari Blucien and a special thanks to a Brio s
Speaker 1: f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Deep. Next week, for what
Speaker 1: will be the final episode of season two, we have
Speaker 1: my old friend and ally, Steve Rolds, longtime senior policy
Speaker 1: analyst at the British organization Transform talking with me about
Speaker 1: models and realities in legalizing cannabis and other drugs. If
Speaker 1: you are actually in the position of making their forms
Speaker 1: and drafting the legislations which shape the nature of the
Speaker 1: market from the outset, you have the power to do
Speaker 1: things very differently. And that's why you do have the
Speaker 1: possibility of social ecrity programs that restrict licensing or preference
Speaker 1: licensing for for impact to communities, and you are able
Speaker 1: to legislate that or seventy of tax revenue is redirected
Speaker 1: into impact to communities. And let's let's use cannabis regulations
Speaker 1: an opportunity to show how drugs can be regulated and
Speaker 1: how markets can be regulated in the interests of the
Speaker 1: communities in which those markets exist. Subscribe to Psychoactive now
Speaker 1: see it, an't miss it.