WEBVTT - Charley & Shelley Wininger On Healthy Aging & Sex with MDMA 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.840 of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:15.079 where we talk about all things drugs. But any of 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:17.960 view is expressed here do not represent those of my 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:23.040 Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.200 as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:30.400 not even represent my own and nothing contained in this 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.360 show should be used as medical advice or encouragement to 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:45.560 use any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Well, we're 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:50.640 approaching at the end of the second season of Psychoactive, 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.680 but in thinking about how I'd like the last or 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:58.360 penultimate episode to be, uh, you know, the notion of 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.520 getting more personal, going more deeply into the issue and 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.920 the questions around m d m A seemed to me 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:08.920 a good one. Obviously, we've talked about m d m 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.600 A before. There was the episode with Rick Doblin talking 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:13.560 about his history of the m d m A and 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:15.680 the trials that will hope to result in the f 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.520 d A approving m d m A and the next 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.639 year or so. But our guest today is somebody who's 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.679 not an m d m A psychotherapist. He doesn't do 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.000 psychotherapy with m d m A. He's not part of 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.560 the trials that MAPS has been moving Forward and others, 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.800 but he's deeply knowledgeable about the subject. His name is 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.119 Charlie Wininger. He's the author of a book a couple 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.759 of years ago called Listening to Ecstasy, The Transformative Power 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.759 of m d m A. Now he's a licensed psychoanalyst 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.360 and mental health counselor in New York. He's been in 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.320 private practice more than thirty years. Some years years ago, 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.520 The New York Times and Newsday nicknamed him the quote 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.520 unquote love doctor because of his work with singles. But 0:01:56.600 --> 0:02:00.240 now he's specializing more in relationships and communication. Skill isn't 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.800 dealing with love and couples and also grief. But I 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:08.720 also asked Um Charlie to invite his wife, Shelly on 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.280 the program as well, Shelley winning Gerald Um in part 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.720 because the book he and story he tells and Listening 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.400 to Ecstasy is so much about the relationship. I mean, 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:20.519 the two of them when I crossed paths with them 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:22.880 in New York City. They are an inseparable couple and 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.560 something about the most reminded me of Sasha and Anne 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.960 Shulgin if you think about their book Pekal, where half 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.240 the book is the chemical recipes for all sorts of 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.480 psychedelic substances. The other one is the story of their 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:37.280 love story and their use of various substances. So, Charlie Shelley, 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:39.560 thank you ever so much for joining me and my 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:47.040 listeners on Psychoactive. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. Charlie. Um. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.440 You know I'll tell you reading your book, I mean, 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:54.799 it's really almost a story, UM of three loves, your 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.959 love with Shelley, your love of M d m A 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.359 and its value, and then a third story about your 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.760 love of community and the communities you're part of, UM 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:10.560 and that you've helped organize and curate. And so you know, 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.600 let me just start UM by asking you. I mean, 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.040 much of your book involves, you know, this, this period 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.679 twenty years ago when you and Shelley meet and it's 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.560 your second marriages and you fall in love and and 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.359 we'll get into that story. But in terms of your 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.839 earlier history of M D m A, had you done 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.240 it before, had it been less valuable to you in 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.920 your life? Was there a pre story there. M d 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.200 M A was not valuable to me at all until 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.200 I met Shelley. I had given it up. I had 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:47.920 only done it alone and recreationally. I didn't know about 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.640 the protocols at the time. I'm going back to the nineties, 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:56.440 and I didn't know about hydrating. I didn't know about 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:02.360 not mixing it with alcohol, all these basic fundamental mistakes. 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:04.680 So I had given it up for dead. I thought 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:09.960 that this was a substance without substance. Then I met Shelley, 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:18.720 and Shelley was like just recently sprung from a regressive marriage, 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:21.919 and she wanted to spread her wings. And when she 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.560 found out about my hippie past and I don't know 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.599 if it's all in the past um, and she found 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:30.440 out that I was a psychoanot and had been a 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:34.560 psychoanat for thirty years by the time I met her 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:39.280 twenty years ago. She said she wanted to uh, she 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.880 wanted me to corrupt her basically, so I said about 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.280 doing so. And the first time we did M d 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:51.560 m A together was a true revelation for both of us. 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:56.240 Just seeing her come on, seeing her climb on M 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.640 d M A was like, I mean into my mind. 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.080 She it was beautiful to begin with, and um and 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:11.320 full of innocence and joy. And suddenly I realized that, Yeah, 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:17.320 this is the chemical of connection. This chemical is not 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:21.320 to be done alone. When I was alone, I felt 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.440 like I was and rolling alone. I felt like I 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.120 was all dressed up with nowhere to go. It's really 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:32.640 about connecting with myself but also with another and in 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:38.200 time many others uh and and uh intentional experiences that 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:42.080 we curated later on. Well, let me ask you know, 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:44.920 at one point you say in the book, Charlie that 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.880 that what you love most that that you find that 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.279 you came to recognize the things that you love most 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.800 about Shelley and M. D m A are similar, And 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:56.640 I wonder, Shelley, would you say the same about Charlie 0:05:56.680 --> 0:06:02.120 and M D m A. What do you mean but similar? Well, Charlie, 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:08.160 what did you mean by similar? Well, um, that M. 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:12.200 D m A gets me right in the moment, and 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.640 that's really where Shelley lives. I have a more of 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:21.119 my mind is heavy and convoluted, and I'm always thinking 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.560 about the past and the future. Shelley is more in 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.120 the here and now, and that's what M. D. M 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.720 A does for me as well. So that's a similarity 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:39.160 right there. I agree absolutely, m I just wanted to 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:43.000 say it also for me. At the very first time 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:52.440 I felt a live. I had been very oppressed, I 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:57.360 guess between my mother and my ex husband, and all 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:02.480 of a sudden everything well, my little handcuffs were released 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:09.880 and I felt beautiful. It was just amazing. And the 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.680 drug has continued to work for the two of you. 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.800 Oh yeah, after many dozens of because now you're using it. 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:18.280 I think you said in the book, try three or 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.920 four times a year. And if you've been together for 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.320 over twenty years, well we've been We've done about eight 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:31.880 roles together in the experience, basically correct in the last 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:37.520 twenty years. Yes, And you know, another similarity is that 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.600 M D m A gets me and other people I've 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.120 met into a state of complete innocence, like a child, 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:49.320 like just happy to be alive and be with somebody 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.840 else that they like, just very simple and innocent and joyful. 0:07:54.640 --> 0:08:00.080 And Shelley is uh really I experienced her as a 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:04.560 very her spirit is is very innocent and joyful. So 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:08.840 that's another way that there they are similar. Well, you know, 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.680 I mean, what really stands out for me in your 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.680 book is the ways in which you can I mean, 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:16.360 we'll talk about the ways you which can m d 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.720 m A to being a psychotherapist, but it's about the 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.760 notion of healthy aging. I mean you you you specifically 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.000 say healthy aging is not just for older people, um, 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.560 but also for younger people as well. But you know here, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.520 I mean there's a sense in which I'm reading your book, 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:32.800 and I mean, I mean here we are you and 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:36.200 I were too, you know, bald headed, white goateed senior 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.160 citizens right dealing with aging in various ways and also 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.320 deeply immersed in are you more than I perhaps been 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:45.400 in a in a psychedelic community in New York and 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.240 more broadly right and the issues around aging, you know, 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.640 as our body's age, as all sorts of things age 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.959 and stuff like that. But you talk about the role 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.480 of m d m A and healthy aging is absolutely 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:06.600 pivot ingredient to making aging work. Well, so just um 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.959 a little more about that. I've learned that and this 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:17.360 I really only learned through uh having all these experiences 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.040 over the years with m d m A. It seems 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:24.000 to have a cumulative effect, at least for me. Uh, 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.000 so many experiences of being for four or five, six, seven, 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:33.319 eight hours feeling completely ageless, giving me a sense of 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:40.480 what it's like to uh feel like really ten thirty 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.160 forty years younger than I am. For that period of time, 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.600 I can dance like I'm not even dancing, I'm being 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.000 danced like the m D m A is the puppeteer 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.080 and I at the marionette and I'm and I'm being 0:09:55.640 --> 0:10:00.000 danced and I'm moving to so light on my feet. Uh. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:06.920 And it helped me realize that aging is that I've 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:10.400 been brainwashed about it. I think we all have, you know, 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:16.640 like the brainwashing goes like this past age five, your 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.880 stock goes down a point a year in terms of 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:27.320 your of your worth into society or socially. Uh. And 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:29.720 so that's why we are all on a hell bent 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.760 mission to try to say, oh, I'm not old, I'm 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.679 young at hard like old is old itself is a 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:46.080 dirty word that's like ridiculous uh and and oppressive. Uh. So, 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:52.280 I you know, somebody looks at me now and they say, uh, 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.640 you know, you look about sixties sixty five. I want 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.360 to shake them up, and they'll say, excuse me, I'm 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.880 about to be seventy four years old, and I earned 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.800 every year, and I'm happy and proud to be this age. 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.439 I don't want to be mistaken for younger, as if 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.920 that's some sort of compliment. It's not a compliment. That's 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.960 actually a backhanded insult. When somebody says you look good 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:21.680 for your age, I'm sorry, you look good for a 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:25.280 and fill in the blank with any other demographic and 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.199 it would be an insult. But but you look good 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.120 for your age means that, um, you don't look as 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.680 old as you really are, as if that's supposed to 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:41.080 be uh, make you more valuable in some way. So 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.000 I realized through doing M D M A a a lot 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:49.800 that all this was oppressing me, and that at any 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:54.959 age in my life, I am every age. In other words, 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:57.840 and it may help me get in touch with my 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.040 eight year old, my eighteen year old, my twenty eight 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.120 year old, and I can do that when I'm sober, 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.400 because my inner child, or my inner eighteen year old, 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:12.080 on my inner thirty year old has has thanks to 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.240 tell me and thanks to remind me of and that 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:20.080 that's vitality and spontaneity that I had then is still 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:24.640 available to me. And so M m A has really 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:30.640 helped me across the adult lifespan. Mm hmm. Well, for 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.280 our listeners, let me just read a few lines from 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.160 the book. From his book Listening to Ecstasy, he says, 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.320 at one point, there are two boxes in this world 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.480 one needs to avoid. His best one can the box 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:43.320 they put you in when you die, and then when 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:45.360 they try to put you in when you're alive. I 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.600 found the best way to delay the former is to 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:52.160 live a life outside the ladder. And at another point 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:54.240 he goes he describes m d m A as an 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:58.760 emotional decongested and says, I found my ability to appreciate 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.440 and benefit from medicines m d m A ripens with 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.200 age that for him, it's a chemical hedge against feeling 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.840 like aging's victim and against age related fear. Here we 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.040 have not an antidote, but a solve, a tonic, a 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:17.160 rejuvenating vacation that can replenish the fountain of one's youth. Shelley, 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:22.560 the same for you. Absolutely, when I roll, I do 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.640 become age, lists I don't think of how old I am. 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.120 And because even when I'm not rolling, I still my 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.920 brain that's still feel young. I mean, I'll tell you 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.000 in reading your book. Part of I had really almost 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:41.320 two kind of emotional reactions to it. One was how 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.800 much it reminded me of what I loved about M 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.880 D M A H in my relationships in the past, 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:49.960 you know, in the role it played that you know, 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.680 in my relationship with my first wife, where I think, 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.800 you know, we were at the verge of divorce and 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:56.880 we did it, and it was really eye opening and 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.959 more than eye opening, soul opening, and I even though 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.120 it didn't result in saving our marriage, it helped us 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.680 to a softer landing, and then in subsequent relationships it 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:09.560 was just this incredibly valuable tool. And also, you know, 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.319 in terms of talking things through, in terms of being 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:14.760 clear with one, of being able to not just say 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.640 things well, but here things well. And I also noticed 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.280 even the very first time I did it, about being 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.400 in my body. It wasn't I burst out. Well, I 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.280 guess there was some dancing there, I mean, but I 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.760 remember feeling the energy. I always felt that the energy 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.520 of my body was very very much in my torso 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.280 and I never felt all that grounded. And the first 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.640 time I did M D M A I could almost 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.920 feel the energy pushing itself down my legs to kind 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.080 of become more grounded. And then on the music. I 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.720 remember the for the music we put on, it was 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:48.440 something called Earth Tribe Rhythm. It was this wonderful dancing music, 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:52.600 this drumming and electronic music. UM, that was just you know, 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.600 just inspiring and just with you know, dance like crazy 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:57.800 the same way that you're describing. But in the book 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.840 you talk about some other things. You talk about about 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.760 music and a good sound system, you talk about anchoring. 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.160 UM say something more first of all about what what 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:11.400 music goes well with what and why? Well, it depends 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:16.160 what you want to do. UM. A comedian once said, 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.080 I heard him on the TV said with M d M, 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:21.240 A people like to dance to E d M. And 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.200 he says, you know what E d M stands for. 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:28.760 It means everyone's doing molly. So I like the d M. 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.920 Electronic dance music, of course is what it really stands for. 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:36.200 And because that's for dancing, uh and also for me 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:41.680 good old rock and roll. But for if I'm not uh, 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:46.320 if I'm feeling more calm and uh and just hanging 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:50.560 out with my love, UM, we might put on some 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:57.560 Buddha bar or trip hop exotic Buddha Lounge in different 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:04.240 playlists like that, and shall you share the same taste 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:09.160 with Charlie in this matter? Oh yeah. When I first 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:14.280 met him, I pretty much I raised two children, so 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.000 I was listening to a lot of kids stuff and 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:23.000 listening to show tunes. So I introduced him to show tunes. 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.680 He introduced me to old fashioned rock and roll, and 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.920 little by little over the years we started playing with 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:33.880 different kinds of music and we found bootleannge for soft 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:41.160 for like Edgier music, or or bootle Lounge boudle bar, 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:47.280 which is softer. It's also very sexual, so that's nice. Well, 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.520 so I want to get into the sexual thing in 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.360 a moment. But what about I'm mixing M D M 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:54.720 A with other drugs, whether it's I guess well, a 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.600 candy flipping when you do with LSD or some people 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.480 have coning with our wana either before during year after. 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:05.200 What's your thoughts about about all of that? Well, Um, 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:09.040 New Year's Eve we candy flipped, which we like to 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.360 do if we can't make it to the Fish concert 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.840 because they want two dollars a ticket. Um, we can't 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.560 make it to Fish on New Year's Eve at Madison Square, garden, 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.320 then we'll we'll candy flip at home with M D 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:27.560 M A and LSD and tends to put us over 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:32.520 the edge. Really, it tends to put us in a 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:42.360 very blissful, blissful, deeply sensual space. But even then, if 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:44.560 if we're just doing M D M A and we 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:48.919 want to get it on um, which I always do 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:55.640 with my ageless angel Um, we will wait till the 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.920 end of the role because it's hard for Uh. It's 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.920 it's it's I just punned there as a bad pun 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:05.679 It's it's difficult, not it's hard for a man to 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.320 stay hard on M D M A. At least that's 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.560 the experience of a lot of men. So we wait 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.520 till the end of the role. As we're coming down 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:19.320 and add cannabis to it. Um. Shelley will take an edible, 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:22.600 which he has a lot very valuable things to talk 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:28.080 about about that, and I will just take some smoke, 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.879 some sativa, and then we can have what I'd like 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:38.680 to call sextasy, where we're just having an amazing sexual 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:44.080 encounter at the end of a role. So let me 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.800 shift here to Shelly, So Shelly um in terms of 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:50.760 cannabis and M d M A and these other things. 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.840 I mean throughout this book, and obviously you must have 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.600 given your okay for Charlie to do this. He describes 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:01.679 you as this incredibly sexual, sensual or gasmic you know, 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.920 evermore so as your age. I mean, it's a wonderful 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.000 description something. What element It reminded me of part of 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:09.880 the things that Anne Schilgren writes about when she does 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.959 two CB with UH with Sasha. You know, I remember, 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:14.600 I think she talks about doing two c B at 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.000 one point and and just totally going through this horrific depression, 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.600 ego destruction, and then Sasha appears at the door and 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:23.960 the thing does a one eight and flips into this 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.240 utter beauty and she has the most the biggest, most 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.320 sustained orgasms of her life. She thereby, by the way, 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.760 said a lot of people up for for failure when 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:34.440 it came to like jumping, let's do two c B 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.560 and have sex, because people, if you could go into 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.040 that way, often it's just not gonna work that way. Um. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.440 But but I'm curious, Shelley, So when Charlie is describing 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.399 you in this way, I'm assuming that you verified everything 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.800 he wrote about you in this book. So when it 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:52.159 comes to these different drugs, um and in terms of sexuality, 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.880 and I understand that you're oftentimes you know that you're 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.200 part of what you do is actually teaching younger women 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:01.520 about learning about their sexuality. So tell us about your 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.280 sexuality and especially as you've got it older, and the 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:08.359 various medicines or substances that you're using. Do you have 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:13.720 about a week, Well, not exactly, but how about the highlights? Okay, 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:18.320 the highlights. First of all, I found when we lived 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:22.719 in our first apartment, I was just starting to go 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:27.480 through menopause, and uh, we could hear the people in 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.520 the next in the next department, which meant they could 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:37.760 hear us. So I realized I I was very controlled 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.160 and I was I was sexy, I was sexual, but 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:46.119 not until we moved to our apartment now where we 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.240 have another building next to our building, so setting the 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:54.880 setting for me changed completely and that made me feel free. 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:59.760 I could be more verbal, which does help. It's only 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.080 in about two years and I've been playing with edible 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.679 cannabis because I have a vocal cord problem and my 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:11.240 doctor told me to use edible because the they was 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:17.119 causing problems. Well, I just started using cannabis at the 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:24.240 edible and it changed me completely. I am They say 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:29.480 that the brain is the largest sex organ in our body, 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:35.480 and I've been taking advantage of that. Uh. It focuses 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:41.000 on me, and many times I will take it before 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.320 Charlie is ready for me. And I just played with music. 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.520 I'll listen to music, I'll start focusing singing it on 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:52.040 different parts of my body. I'll start touching different parts 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.119 of my body. I'm learning more and more about my 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:59.080 body even now, and I feel that that a lot 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:03.560 of women don't know their body. They don't know it's 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:06.000 a lot of them don't even know that they're What 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:10.600 kind of orgasms there are? How many orgasms? I called 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:16.040 my little ones organs. I have lots of organs. And 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:20.479 I started playing with music where I would listen to 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:24.399 different kinds of music and as it would vibrate, I 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:28.560 would focus the vibration down below. And I found I 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.800 could have an orgasm without touching myself, just using the 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:36.520 music in my brain. And when people hear that, they're like, 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:41.840 oh my god. Because I have to use edibles which 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.880 stay in your body longer, and I think really affect 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:50.120 the body. Maybe differently. I can't talk for people who 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:54.200 smoke or you know, babe whatever. I can only talk 0:22:54.240 --> 0:23:03.119 about edibles. But yeah, it's some. It's it's very interesting 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:06.200 and I'm still learning. And I'll tell you a very 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:09.159 quick story. When I was in nursing school back in 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:14.680 nineteen sixty nine, I started nineteen six seventy a gynecollege. 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:18.840 Just came to talk to the whole freshman class because 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:21.640 we were all getting you know, we're eighteen years old, 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:25.320 nineteen years all living in New York City. He was 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:28.160 talking to us about the birth control pill, and then 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:31.960 he talked about something called the pelvic tilt. Now I 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:35.879 was a virgin. I really knew nothing about sex. A 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:41.679 few months ago. Uh, during sex, I realized I was 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:46.280 doing the pelvic tilt he was talking about fifty years ago, 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:51.240 and it meant just moving my body up so that 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:56.760 he was rubbing against my cletterest and giving me an orgasm. 0:23:57.040 --> 0:24:00.840 M hm. So that that was like, whoa, we know 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:06.920 he took me this. You just came across recently. Yeah, 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:12.879 what a wonderful discovery. Yes, I do cannabis every week, 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:18.320 but but I a New Year's Eve when we candy flipped. Uh, 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:23.000 I ended up taking a little piece of edible and 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:26.560 because the m d M may seem to be overpowering 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:32.840 the LSD and we wanted to have sex, So I 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:35.679 took a little piece of edible and about it. Within 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:39.720 an hour, all of a sudden, the tapestry over our 0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:44.120 bed is moving and I'm like, holy shit, I'm treating 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:48.240 And Charlie's like, oh, you mean the the uh did 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:51.720 the cannabis help the the m d M. A. I'm 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:54.920 like no, And I only took a little piece of acid. 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:59.760 I said it activated the acid. For the first time, 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:05.400 I was quote unquote tripping balls. I had never done 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:11.240 that that much before. It was very, very different. Uh. 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.240 Sex at that point I couldn't do because I could 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:22.400 barely speak. So we'll be talking more after we hear 0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:39.800 this ad in the book right while you talk about 0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:44.360 the importance of anchoring, right that during the NDEMA experience, 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:48.840 that one's getting the emotional psychological insights and that one 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:51.480 wants to kind of be conscious at that time of 0:25:51.520 --> 0:25:55.119 how one can come back to those places. But I'm wondering, 0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:58.359 both for you and Shelley, whether that's also true about sexuality, 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:01.600 like even leaving a part of cannabis. Um. Does one 0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:04.720 get to places with the LSD or or M D 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:07.520 m A and sexuality that one can then anchor and 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:10.480 think about how long comes back to those that space 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:14.639 without the use of substances. Um, you know, in subsequent days, weeks, 0:26:14.720 --> 0:26:19.600 or the rest of one's life. Yes. Um. And one 0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.600 great way to anchor the experience is with the use 0:26:22.640 --> 0:26:26.199 of music. And this is described in the book. But 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:31.240 also when you're high on whatever substance and you get 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:33.800 into a piece of music that you love, and if 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:38.719 it's a piece of music that makes you feel erotic sensual, uh, 0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:42.000 you can make note of that and remember that and 0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:46.359 then afterwards, uh, days or weeks later, when you're a 0:26:46.400 --> 0:26:51.960 sober uh, you can play that music again and turn 0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:55.760 down the lights and light some candles and and um, 0:26:56.000 --> 0:26:59.399 hang out with your partner or yourself and get into 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:03.679 that same sensual or sexual mood. Shellyam, is it that 0:27:03.720 --> 0:27:05.159 way for you as well? I mean, is there a 0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:08.520 sense of that oh my god factors saying I can 0:27:09.400 --> 0:27:13.800 I can get back here without these drugs? Um? Yes, 0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:20.560 and no. When Charlie proposed to me, I was ecstatic 0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:24.640 obviously pose to me on a Friday that next day, 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:28.960 we had planned to go up to a state park upstate, 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:31.399 which we did, and we took M D M A 0:27:32.160 --> 0:27:36.560 and I listened to a song by Enya called Flora's 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:40.000 Secret because we were like the only ones in this 0:27:40.240 --> 0:27:44.320 field the sun was shining and Floria's Secrets about flowers. 0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:49.240 I listened to it about twenty times while under the 0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:54.119 influence of M D M A. Even today, twenty some 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:59.479 odd years later, I or fifteen seventeen years later, I 0:27:59.480 --> 0:28:02.919 could listen into that song and be brought back to 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:07.119 the feeling of lying under the sun being on M 0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:13.800 D M A even now. Uh, that's the most impressive 0:28:13.800 --> 0:28:18.560 one that I find. It still amazes me. Uh. There 0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:24.200 is some psychedelic songs that Charlie plays sometimes, like the 0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:28.720 Chambers Brothers. Uh Time has Come today. It's a very 0:28:30.320 --> 0:28:35.760 hut Charlie trippy song. IM talking about the long version, 0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:40.640 the FM version of eleven minute version. Time has Come Today. 0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:45.880 It's that one of the best psychedelic songs ever ever produced. 0:28:48.200 --> 0:28:50.640 And when I hear that song, it just puts me 0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:54.560 in the mood no matter what I'm on or if anything, 0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:59.160 What a blessing this has been from me? If you 0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:02.120 ask me an age thirty, forty or fifty, what my 0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:06.080 sex life would be as a seventy three year old man, 0:29:06.920 --> 0:29:10.440 I would have frowned and said, I dread what would happen? 0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:16.280 What will happen? But um, I was sex life keeps ripening, 0:29:16.440 --> 0:29:21.840 keeps blossoming. Um and my wife, my this this I 0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:26.120 called her my ageless Angels. She's more sexual than ever before. 0:29:26.800 --> 0:29:32.800 So um, I'm just uh so blessed to have found her. Well, 0:29:32.880 --> 0:29:34.960 let me ask this question. I mean, Shelley, Well, you're 0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:38.400 describing is obviously just you know, um, you start using 0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:41.840 edible two years ago, but that's when Charlie's book came out, 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:46.000 and he's already describing you as this incredibly sexual being 0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:49.160 before that, and also about M D m A. So 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:51.040 I'm curious, Shelley, what about with M D M A. 0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:53.520 I mean, you know, I mean Charlie described and it's 0:29:53.520 --> 0:29:56.280 been sometimes my experience as well, that M D M 0:29:56.320 --> 0:30:00.960 A could lead to really exquisite um sex, although virtually 0:30:01.080 --> 0:30:03.560 never ending for me at least in an orgasm, that 0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:06.520 it is almost impossible to orgasm, but that one could 0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:11.360 get an incredibly sensual, you know, loving sexy, just delicious 0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:16.520 delightful place. Um, but I'm what about from your perspective 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:20.240 in terms of M d m A and sex. Uh Okay, 0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:26.120 One time at a music festival, I was standing up 0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:29.040 and swaying to the music, and apparently I was rubbing 0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:32.640 my legs together. I had an orgasm. I was I 0:30:32.720 --> 0:30:34.680 was on m d m A at the time. Yes. 0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:40.040 Add if we are together in bed and the m 0:30:40.120 --> 0:30:44.320 d m A is still very active, um, the best 0:30:44.360 --> 0:30:47.280 thing I can do for her is go down on 0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:51.120 her um at that time because it might be hard 0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:55.480 for me to get or stay hard, but I can 0:30:55.480 --> 0:30:59.440 do other things. You know. I really appreciate your sharing 0:30:59.440 --> 0:31:01.640 the story is here. On the other hand, I also 0:31:01.760 --> 0:31:04.280 wonder you know, I mean, Charlie, I have to say 0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:06.960 in reading your book, and you know, you're offering a 0:31:07.000 --> 0:31:11.400 lot of wisdom and guidance about healthy aging and about sexuality. 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:14.760 But it also, you know, I keep having this you know, 0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:17.480 questioning thing. Well, but Charlie, maybe you just met the 0:31:17.560 --> 0:31:22.720 perfect woman to have this relationship with and it's less 0:31:22.760 --> 0:31:25.800 about the drug and it's more about the woman. And 0:31:25.840 --> 0:31:30.239 obviously the drug is helping these things along. Um. You know, 0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:31.800 but but I mean, you do you talk in the 0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:33.840 book about you know, for the first two in your 0:31:33.840 --> 0:31:36.760 twenties sorties and forties, for you was always finding some 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:39.360 woman who was highly intellectual and was all gonna you know, 0:31:39.480 --> 0:31:42.040 ups and downs mood wise, and wasn't utterly gonna be 0:31:42.120 --> 0:31:43.480 There's gonna be a lot of you know, a lot 0:31:43.520 --> 0:31:45.560 of excitement, but a lot of grief. And then you 0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:49.360 describe meeting Shelley, who was just this magical partner for you. 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:52.480 And I wonder about you know, if if you have 0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:54.760 I don't want to have to go think about this, 0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:58.200 but assuming you had never met Shelly, I mean with 0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:00.840 this whole evolution in your life with M D m 0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:03.000 A and sexual I mean, could it could you even 0:32:03.120 --> 0:32:05.760 envision it having happened? Or was she just the key 0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:10.520 to all of this? Uh? You you have you make 0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:13.320 a good point. I mean, she Shelly and I are 0:32:13.400 --> 0:32:20.440 unusually compatible. Um. But the thing is Ethan that I 0:32:20.520 --> 0:32:27.040 think the age ism, the internalized ideas that we uh 0:32:27.160 --> 0:32:32.040 that we inhale from this culture about what to expect 0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:36.880 from ourselves and our partners or our future partners as 0:32:36.880 --> 0:32:42.200 we age, is debilitating because we expect less in terms 0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:46.640 of sexual connection, and you know, often women they go 0:32:46.760 --> 0:32:52.360 through menopause, and many women feel like I'm done with sex. 0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:55.320 That's it. I don't want to have sex anymore. And 0:32:55.880 --> 0:33:01.880 that's obviously a very valid choice. All we're saying is 0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:06.680 that there's another option, uh, and that couples don't have 0:33:06.800 --> 0:33:11.800 to settle for a sexless marriage if they don't want to, 0:33:12.680 --> 0:33:17.480 if they're having emotional troubles because they're fighting and and 0:33:17.480 --> 0:33:22.960 and and that gets reflected in lack of a sex life. Okay, well, 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:28.520 then you need couples counseling because I've found that, you know, 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:31.920 it can it can get better with couples counseling. Shelley 0:33:31.920 --> 0:33:34.400 and I have been to a couple's counselor many times 0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:39.520 because we hit a human We hit snags along the way. Um, 0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:48.000 but but we are unusually compatible. And uh, sex is 0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:54.600 to have a sexually alive marriage is possible across the 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:59.160 whole adult lifespan. And you know, there's a whole spectrum 0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:03.680 of sexual of sexuality between two people. It's not just 0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:10.560 about intercourse. It can be about affection. Shelley and I 0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:15.400 are affectionate, uh, through the day and through the week 0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:21.120 with each other. We keep that aliveness there, that connection there, 0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:25.879 and that was influenced not only by our strong love 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:28.040 for each other, but by M D M A that 0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:31.560 helped us stay in the moment and realize that our 0:34:31.600 --> 0:34:35.799 bodies are where we live. And when I touched her, 0:34:36.760 --> 0:34:40.920 I feel her touching me, and uh and it it 0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:46.880 brings me out of whatever craziness I'm rumination I have 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:50.440 in my head. Um she I wake up in the 0:34:50.520 --> 0:34:53.080 morning and I'm full of a thousand thoughts. I walk 0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:57.440 into the kitchen, she stands up and wants to hug me, 0:34:57.560 --> 0:35:01.960 and my day is made at that point because she 0:35:02.120 --> 0:35:06.160 just squeezes all the nonsense out of me at that 0:35:06.280 --> 0:35:09.839 moment that I come to and I'm really awake man 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:14.239 for the rest of the day. You know, Charlie. One 0:35:14.280 --> 0:35:15.600 thing you just spend a lot of time on in 0:35:15.600 --> 0:35:17.920 the latter part of the book is dealing on the 0:35:17.920 --> 0:35:21.080 one hand, with agism in our society, and not just 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:24.680 asism in terms of young people kind of making assumptions 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:28.239 about people who look older, but also in the ways 0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:31.520 in which those assumptions are internalized. And then you describe 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:34.120 how you and Shelly do something which I can relate 0:35:34.160 --> 0:35:37.040 to a lot, which is you oftentimes find yourself in 0:35:37.239 --> 0:35:41.480 environments UM parties, things like that, UM where you're far 0:35:41.520 --> 0:35:44.520 and away the oldest people there right where the most 0:35:44.520 --> 0:35:46.560 of the people in their twenties or thirties, and there 0:35:46.600 --> 0:35:49.640 you are in your late sixties or early seventies. And 0:35:49.760 --> 0:35:53.279 what that's like and what you describe I think is 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:56.000 I mean, first of all, the lack of inhibition on 0:35:56.080 --> 0:35:59.320 both your part and even more so Shelley's part. Um 0:35:59.360 --> 0:36:04.359 that's actually really rejuvenating and and and and and sort 0:36:04.360 --> 0:36:06.600 of you know, just stimulates a kind of renewed vitality 0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:09.719 where you can feel your younger self, and even your 0:36:09.719 --> 0:36:12.680 body for at least for those hours, can feel dramatically 0:36:12.760 --> 0:36:17.720 younger than it actually is. When we are with younger people, 0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:23.319 and it's often with people in the psychedelic community. UM, 0:36:23.880 --> 0:36:29.680 suddenly those old notions of I call them apartheid, of 0:36:29.680 --> 0:36:35.239 of of age segregation that exists in a town like 0:36:35.320 --> 0:36:39.799 New York City, it falls away. And the benefit is 0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:44.719 too way. It's in both directions. We benefit by being 0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:47.920 around younger people who are filled with vitality and a 0:36:49.040 --> 0:36:53.840 freshness that you ordinarily don't see in sixties and seventies 0:36:53.840 --> 0:36:57.359 and eighty year olds. So we benefit from that. They 0:36:57.440 --> 0:37:03.080 benefit from seeing us. Uh. Sometimes they want to, you know, 0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:07.239 just be around us to gain whatever wisdom they think 0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:12.560 we might have. UM. But also they want to be 0:37:12.600 --> 0:37:16.799 around us because they see the love between us. It's 0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:21.440 palpable and it gives them hope for their future. If 0:37:21.440 --> 0:37:23.919 they're single, it gives them hope to have a relationship 0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:27.200 that that works like always does UM. But if the 0:37:27.400 --> 0:37:29.879 couple they can see that, yeah, the love can keep 0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:34.799 going and keep growing through the decades. But I mean, 0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:37.799 it sounds like you're trying to send a message to that. 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:40.919 On the one hand, the psychedelics community is quite accepting 0:37:41.160 --> 0:37:44.319 of this age spectrum. But even so, to be in 0:37:44.320 --> 0:37:48.000 a kind of parting environment is UM is unusual. And 0:37:48.040 --> 0:37:50.280 you guys are sort of role models and you're talking 0:37:50.320 --> 0:37:53.120 back the fact that seeing yourselves is as as owning 0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:56.560 the notion of yourself as elders and even you know, 0:37:57.000 --> 0:37:59.600 not quite putting into people's face, but saying we are 0:37:59.640 --> 0:38:02.040 elder is there's something too. So I mean, when did 0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:04.640 that first hit you that you're an elder? That you 0:38:06.840 --> 0:38:10.800 when we would go to a rave and people would 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:15.160 come up to us invariably and say, I'm so glad 0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:19.480 you're here. You give me hope. They use a different 0:38:19.600 --> 0:38:22.200 line sometimes than the one your friend got. He said, 0:38:22.480 --> 0:38:24.759 You're what I want to be when I don't grow up. 0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:30.520 So people are grateful to us for for showing up 0:38:30.560 --> 0:38:37.240 and showing that it's possible to to keep the party 0:38:37.280 --> 0:38:43.840 going across the whole lifespan show. You share this feeling 0:38:43.880 --> 0:38:48.720 of being an elder in the community. Oh, absolutely, I've had. 0:38:48.760 --> 0:38:52.200 I had a woman come over to me back in October. 0:38:52.320 --> 0:38:56.920 We were at a party and uh, she wanted to 0:38:57.080 --> 0:39:03.040 know what you in her like early thirties. Do I 0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:08.279 have any advice for her? And I said, and I 0:39:08.320 --> 0:39:12.160 hadn't think because nobody has really asked me about advice. 0:39:13.239 --> 0:39:18.600 And I said, go with your gut feelings, because I 0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:21.879 have learned that if the gut is telling me one thing, 0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:25.560 it's usually the right thing. I like to say that 0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:29.720 the best part of the psychedelic community isn't the psychedelics, 0:39:30.280 --> 0:39:33.560 it's the community. It's the people who are drawn to 0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:38.920 these medicines are among the most open hearted, open minded, 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:45.480 curious seeking people that I would ever want to meet. 0:39:46.160 --> 0:39:49.520 And so we've we've looked out in this way and 0:39:50.719 --> 0:39:53.840 to be elder is it just seems um like, I 0:39:53.840 --> 0:39:55.880 feel like we're in the right place at the right time, 0:39:56.840 --> 0:39:59.600 especially in the middle of a renaissance. I mean, it's 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:02.640 fab lists. Well, you know, in the book, Charlie, you 0:40:02.640 --> 0:40:05.399 put this in some historical context. I mean, at one 0:40:05.440 --> 0:40:08.400 point you say, I wonder if my shift in drugs 0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:10.600 of choice from cocaine when I was younger to m 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:13.879 d m A corresponds to a larger shift in the zeitgeist, 0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:17.560 one to a more feminine ethic. Consider the code names 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:21.000 for these two drugs, blow and molly, And then you 0:40:21.040 --> 0:40:23.880 talk about you know, two key moments in two thousand 0:40:23.840 --> 0:40:25.960 and four and five. I think it was first when 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:29.720 Peter Jettings, the ABC News correspondent, does his special about 0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:33.160 m DMA called Ecstasy Rising. And then around the same 0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:37.239 time when Alex Gray, the famous Psychedelsis painter, and his 0:40:37.280 --> 0:40:40.920 wife Allison, also a painter, you know, creates the Chapel 0:40:41.160 --> 0:40:44.799 of Sacred Mirrors uh kasum c O s M. And 0:40:44.800 --> 0:40:47.280 when that opens in New York and sort of opens 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:49.920 up a culture. So it does seem that there was 0:40:49.960 --> 0:40:51.640 I mean, here you and Shelley had what met in 0:40:51.680 --> 0:40:54.560 the late nineties or around two thousand and then a 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:57.400 few years later there's this kind of both you know, 0:40:57.520 --> 0:41:01.200 public media opening with with Peter Jettings thing and then 0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:04.759 with Alex and Alison Gray doing Cosum. I mean when 0:41:04.760 --> 0:41:07.920 you reflect back on that time, I mean, what did 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:10.120 it feel like then or was it you know, did 0:41:10.120 --> 0:41:11.759 you were you just in the right place and right 0:41:11.760 --> 0:41:13.880 time to be you know, part of this wave or 0:41:13.880 --> 0:41:16.320 it was just part of a broader zeitgeist that was happening. 0:41:16.800 --> 0:41:19.399 You know that it was the world, like I say, 0:41:19.600 --> 0:41:21.440 were in the right place at the right time, and 0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:25.839 we still are um. Cosum opened in October first, two 0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:29.239 thousand and four. I tell the whole story in the 0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:34.200 book UH and UH and and Roland Griffith's was doing 0:41:34.200 --> 0:41:38.600 this breakthrough work at UH at Johns Hopkins UH with 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:45.720 realizing that psilocybin can have these terrific beneficial effects for people, 0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:48.799 and that was getting That was the first wave of 0:41:48.920 --> 0:41:55.040 publicity that LSD or magic mushrooms or m D M 0:41:55.040 --> 0:41:59.520 a UH that had been damned by the by the 0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:06.400 government than the culture are actually solutions. They're not drug problems, 0:42:06.400 --> 0:42:12.080 that drug solutions, and that they the narrative around these 0:42:12.120 --> 0:42:16.480 substances began to change back then, and don't don't forget 0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:20.000 that in twenty in two thousand and three, after Existas 0:42:20.280 --> 0:42:25.399 Rosing was when we started our first polums where we 0:42:25.400 --> 0:42:28.800 were able to a little Yeah, that's a very important 0:42:29.280 --> 0:42:33.080 part of our life. Yeah, people listening to go back 0:42:33.120 --> 0:42:36.160 to what you were just talking about there about community 0:42:36.560 --> 0:42:40.560 that caused them Chapel secret inspires a kind of pop 0:42:40.640 --> 0:42:43.880 up parties. You guys have your first gathering and that 0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:45.879 you know, and and that's part of the places where 0:42:45.880 --> 0:42:48.960 you're interacting much younger people. But it's clear, Charlie that 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:51.040 you're very conscious and I guess really both of you, 0:42:51.040 --> 0:42:54.600 you and Shelley in terms of bringing people together, you know, 0:42:54.680 --> 0:42:59.040 emphasizing the value of community. Sometimes this involves M D 0:42:59.160 --> 0:43:01.960 m A. Sometimes it is not, But just you know, 0:43:02.120 --> 0:43:04.680 I mean, I'm really impressed, and I know you've invited 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:07.640 me numerous times to to come to one of these gatherings, 0:43:07.640 --> 0:43:10.000 and I I do intend effects sooner than later to 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:13.239 say yes to that um. But say more about these 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:17.080 gatherings and their apportance. And sure, as I said at 0:43:17.080 --> 0:43:19.600 the beginning, you describe you three loves, right, Shelley, M 0:43:19.640 --> 0:43:21.799 D m A and the communities that you're part of, 0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:29.040 so talk about community. Well, Um, so we wanted to 0:43:29.400 --> 0:43:34.040 host here. MAPS had sent out an email saying, anyone 0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:37.560 who wants to host a screening of the Peter Jennings 0:43:38.600 --> 0:43:44.320 UH interview a show called Ecstasy Rising in two thousand 0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:47.880 and four, just let us know. So we let them know, 0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:52.680 and they sent a bunch of people our way and 0:43:53.239 --> 0:43:59.080 we all watched this together. That was our first pot luck. Um, 0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:05.560 we all watched together and um, we we're talking till 0:44:05.600 --> 0:44:08.040 like one or two am in the morning because we 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:12.480 had found each other. So every year after that, we 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:16.680 who would host a pot luck in our apartment, reaching 0:44:16.719 --> 0:44:18.759 out two MAPS to say, you know, tell people in 0:44:18.800 --> 0:44:22.160 the New York City vicinity, and you know that we 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:26.279 are opening our homes to UH to other MAPS members. 0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:30.759 And over the years it would grow and finally we 0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:34.400 couldn't contain it till one night anymore. It grew to 0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:39.080 two nights, and then three nights. Now these years we 0:44:39.200 --> 0:44:44.799 have people coming in over four nights, people per night 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:49.960 from the MAPS and the larger community to UH here 0:44:50.000 --> 0:44:55.279 in New York City, the psychedelic community. And these are 0:44:55.440 --> 0:45:00.400 just blissful events because and they're sober events, UH, except 0:45:00.440 --> 0:45:02.560 for a little wine or beer. That's it's a pot 0:45:02.640 --> 0:45:06.920 luck and it's sober, and we're talking about the topic 0:45:07.000 --> 0:45:09.960 that people agree on beforehand that they want to talk about, 0:45:10.120 --> 0:45:13.799 like sex, drugs, and intimacy or whatever the topic is. 0:45:14.560 --> 0:45:19.120 And people get to meet and friendships get born on 0:45:19.239 --> 0:45:22.760 these nights that friendships that have lasted for for years 0:45:22.800 --> 0:45:28.319 even decades now UH. This coming year into three, we 0:45:28.360 --> 0:45:35.160 will we will be celebrating our twenty anniversary our potluck dinners, 0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:39.040 and we're going to do something special to do this 0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:42.080 and get a whole a whole lot of people together 0:45:42.120 --> 0:45:45.800 for a night, maybe rent the boat to go around Manhattan. 0:45:45.840 --> 0:45:48.920 I don't know what we're gonna do, but we usually 0:45:48.960 --> 0:45:52.440 do this in in UH later in the year. But 0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:58.960 we've also hosted besides the potlucks, we've hosted definitely non 0:45:59.000 --> 0:46:04.080 sober arrance is UH in Prospect Park where we're just 0:46:04.440 --> 0:46:08.360 gather people together, twenty five people, thirty five people, forty 0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:12.040 five people and to the outside world, it just looks 0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:15.360 like a bunch of people having a picnic except for 0:46:15.400 --> 0:46:21.280 the occasional cuddle puddle, but we're just having a blissful 0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:25.160 time together for the day and for people who participate 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:28.520 in that, and anyone can do this, by the way, 0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:32.200 any listener of this show, Uh, you know people or 0:46:32.239 --> 0:46:35.080 you can you can find people who will do this 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:37.319 with you. And it's a wonderful way to get to 0:46:37.360 --> 0:46:41.840 know people. There's no better way to spend the day, 0:46:42.200 --> 0:46:45.840 uh than rolling together on M D m A and 0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:50.600 just getting to know each other. And because as you know, 0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:52.880 M D M A opens the heart and opens the 0:46:52.960 --> 0:46:56.000 mind and just to make that connection. People want to 0:46:56.040 --> 0:47:02.040 stay connected after these group experiences. For here is UM 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:06.560 and they do. It's a great way to to make 0:47:06.640 --> 0:47:10.080 new friendships and it's been a wonderful blessing for Shelly 0:47:10.120 --> 0:47:12.879 and I. Charlie, is there any advice you can tell 0:47:13.000 --> 0:47:15.160 the listeners about how they actually can are there are 0:47:15.200 --> 0:47:18.719 there websites or anything else to figure out how you 0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:24.920 tap into this community in your local area? Well, um, yeah, 0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:29.919 there are many websites, UM certainly Uh if somebody wants 0:47:29.960 --> 0:47:32.799 to tap into the community, they can give me, uh, 0:47:33.080 --> 0:47:36.560 send me an email. You can you can get into 0:47:36.640 --> 0:47:40.440 my website and listening to ecstasy dot com or Charlie 0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:46.400 Wininger dot com and uh C J Wininger at gmail 0:47:46.440 --> 0:47:50.360 dot com is my email address. But they're also like 0:47:50.600 --> 0:47:54.880 here in New York. Uh, there's a Brooklyn Psychedelic Society 0:47:55.040 --> 0:48:00.600 which is very popular. And the Psychedelic Society's all over 0:48:00.640 --> 0:48:03.960 the country. You just have to do some digging. They're 0:48:04.000 --> 0:48:07.520 not underground. They are It's not a place to go 0:48:07.600 --> 0:48:09.800 to get high. It's not a place to go to 0:48:09.880 --> 0:48:13.360 find a source. It's a place to go to meet 0:48:13.400 --> 0:48:17.800 other people. And uh sometimes it's a meet up dot 0:48:17.920 --> 0:48:21.799 org or you can start your own psychedelic society in 0:48:21.840 --> 0:48:25.480 your town. Believe me, there are people within ten miles 0:48:25.520 --> 0:48:28.520 of you, lots of people within ten miles of you 0:48:28.880 --> 0:48:31.720 who are doing psychedelics and they're just keeping it quiet 0:48:31.800 --> 0:48:34.560 like you might be keeping it quiet. But they're out 0:48:34.600 --> 0:48:38.680 there and they want to meet you. So there are 0:48:38.680 --> 0:48:44.560 friendships waiting to be made. Let's take a break here 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:59.440 and go to an air no try. I want to 0:48:59.440 --> 0:49:01.640 take up another issue though with you, which is you 0:49:01.719 --> 0:49:06.640 also describe some history of struggling with substance abuse, with 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:10.919 cocaine and with amphetamine and having a father was alcoholic 0:49:11.200 --> 0:49:13.799 and and you also then talk about how M D 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:17.440 m A has helped you in this regard that if 0:49:17.600 --> 0:49:19.400 you know, whereas you have to be careful. There are 0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:21.600 people who can get addicted to M d m A. 0:49:21.760 --> 0:49:25.239 It is possible, and people do abuse it in that way. Um, 0:49:25.280 --> 0:49:27.799 but it also can be helpful. So just say more 0:49:27.920 --> 0:49:38.040 about that. Well, um, yeah, it's a whole story. But um, 0:49:38.080 --> 0:49:41.840 I was struggling with cocaine for a while and the 0:49:41.880 --> 0:49:45.080 best definition of cocaine I ever heard was Robin Williams 0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:50.480 calling it the devil's dandruff. Um it's just for some 0:49:50.520 --> 0:49:53.600 people it works, I'm sure, but for me, it it 0:49:53.719 --> 0:50:00.000 worked me. Um, cocaine was doing me. I wasn't doing cocaine. Um, 0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:04.400 it was. It was abusing me. And I realized that 0:50:04.440 --> 0:50:08.480 I had to quickly quickly make a choice. It was 0:50:08.480 --> 0:50:12.560 gonna win or I was going to win. So UM, 0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:17.480 I found two key, two keys, one illegal and one 0:50:17.520 --> 0:50:21.560 not legal. Uh. The not legal key for me was 0:50:21.719 --> 0:50:25.080 M d M A because I soon discovered that M 0:50:25.160 --> 0:50:30.480 d M A was a far far superior medicine because 0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:34.319 it lasts longer, because it doesn't have addictive qualities like 0:50:34.400 --> 0:50:39.080 cocaine notoriously does not everyone gets addicted to cocaine who 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:41.480 uses it, but a lot of people do. I I 0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:45.480 was getting there. Um. Uh. And M D m A 0:50:45.640 --> 0:50:51.239 is not addictive for me and for most people. Uh. 0:50:51.239 --> 0:50:55.239 And it lasts a lot longer, it's a whole lot cheaper, 0:50:55.640 --> 0:51:00.680 it has all kinds of of of benefits. The legal 0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:08.239 route that helped me was very dark chocolate, and I'm 0:51:08.280 --> 0:51:13.920 talking about hundred bitter chocolate. Most people eat chocolate for 0:51:13.960 --> 0:51:17.880 the taste. I eat it for the effect because it 0:51:18.480 --> 0:51:22.280 sends me in just a little bit of the same 0:51:22.320 --> 0:51:26.480 direction of cocaine or M D m A. It's a 0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:32.200 stimulant and it's a mood elevator. And so I am 0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:36.920 now a t alcoholic, which is a perfectly functional addiction 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:41.279 to have at all. The hundred percent dark chocolate with 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:45.319 dates in it, and it's just it's just wonderful and 0:51:45.360 --> 0:51:49.800 it it elevates my mood and it helps uh sex 0:51:49.840 --> 0:51:56.120 as well. Uh. And it's um and it's healthy. So 0:51:56.440 --> 0:52:00.439 these things have helped me. I haven't done cocaine in 0:52:00.840 --> 0:52:06.320 what about eleven twelve years now, and so I'm very 0:52:06.360 --> 0:52:10.880 I'm very happy about that, mm hmm. And when you 0:52:10.920 --> 0:52:12.839 think about how you're in D M A use has 0:52:12.920 --> 0:52:19.239 shaped your your approach to being a psychotherapist, I mean 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:22.600 is it a monumental impact on that or just kind 0:52:22.640 --> 0:52:26.360 of a you know, it's help you refine be more empathic. 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:28.520 I mean, what are they? What are the key, what's 0:52:28.560 --> 0:52:32.440 the relationship there? It's helped me become a better therapist, 0:52:33.320 --> 0:52:36.719 because I mean I was fairly empathetic to begin with, 0:52:36.840 --> 0:52:41.240 but of course m d m A helps amplify one's 0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:47.480 uh proclivity towards empathy. And having had eighty roles, I 0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:50.920 know what feels like in my heart to empathize with 0:52:51.000 --> 0:52:55.600 somebody physically UM, and I can anchor that and bring 0:52:55.600 --> 0:52:59.120 it into the therapy session. I do therapy so but 0:52:59.440 --> 0:53:03.239 the client is sober, and I am sober. But I 0:53:03.400 --> 0:53:06.440 found that the best therapy I can do, that I 0:53:06.480 --> 0:53:11.200 can provide is if I can try to make try 0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:16.200 to create an atmosphere and environment in the therapy room 0:53:16.360 --> 0:53:20.400 that replicates the m d m A experience. And what 0:53:20.440 --> 0:53:24.800 I mean by that is being receptive to the person, 0:53:25.800 --> 0:53:30.440 listening deeply into and through exactly all that they're saying 0:53:30.480 --> 0:53:36.719 and all that they're conveying, really being there uh and 0:53:36.800 --> 0:53:42.040 reflecting back to them what I hear and UH and 0:53:42.040 --> 0:53:45.839 and empathizing and showing compassion as best as I can, 0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:50.200 and when they feel safe, their defenses can come down 0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:53.520 a bit, and when the defenses come down, they can 0:53:53.560 --> 0:53:57.839 come out a bit and risk being vulnerable right there 0:53:57.880 --> 0:54:02.680 in the therapy session, and that's where the healing can 0:54:02.760 --> 0:54:06.600 really start taking place. And when we think about m 0:54:06.640 --> 0:54:08.319 d m A, I mean, obviously the you know, the 0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:10.360 research is being done out by MAPS in terms of 0:54:10.400 --> 0:54:14.040 treating PTSD, and there's all the looking at its value 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:18.200 in other areas, maybe including a diction, maybe including eating disorders, 0:54:18.239 --> 0:54:21.920 maybe including you know, fear around end of life. But 0:54:22.080 --> 0:54:24.240 when we think about m d m A and helping 0:54:24.360 --> 0:54:28.880 people deal with grief or the grief the loss of 0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:32.799 a loved one, um, what can you say about that? 0:54:35.200 --> 0:54:37.799 How much time do we have? Ethan? I mean, I'm 0:54:37.800 --> 0:54:39.640 also I'm hesitated because you know, I know when when 0:54:39.680 --> 0:54:42.439 when when we all had dinner with some friends last year, 0:54:43.080 --> 0:54:46.800 and Shelly, you told the story about about the loss 0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:49.920 of your son and also about how I think m 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:52.560 d m A was helpful in dealing with that. But 0:54:52.680 --> 0:54:54.400 I don't know, I don't know if you want to 0:54:54.440 --> 0:54:57.400 go there. I know it's painful to talk about, So Shelly, 0:54:57.440 --> 0:55:00.799 if you're willing to share that store. I think it 0:55:00.840 --> 0:55:05.520 would be interesting in lightening for our listeners. Okay, so 0:55:05.560 --> 0:55:10.080 I made thirteen. Um, my son died. He was thirty 0:55:10.160 --> 0:55:18.120 nine years old, and this was we already knew that 0:55:18.200 --> 0:55:20.560 we were going to have a group of a group 0:55:20.680 --> 0:55:23.960 role and people were asking was shall we going to 0:55:24.080 --> 0:55:29.239 be in on it? And I said absolutely to use 0:55:29.400 --> 0:55:32.640 M D M A to help me in my grief. 0:55:32.719 --> 0:55:39.440 It could be it could be perfect. So we um. 0:55:39.480 --> 0:55:42.680 We went to Prospect Park in about an hour and 0:55:42.680 --> 0:55:47.279 a half for so into the experience, Charlie called us 0:55:47.320 --> 0:55:51.919 into a circle whoever wanted to participate. There was one 0:55:52.000 --> 0:55:55.040 person who came down from Boston. Actually he had lost 0:55:55.120 --> 0:55:57.879 his mother the same day that I lost my son, 0:55:59.160 --> 0:56:01.920 and he spoke about his mother a little bit. And 0:56:01.920 --> 0:56:06.280 then other people who had lost people in the past 0:56:06.360 --> 0:56:10.520 year had spoken about their people. And then it was 0:56:10.640 --> 0:56:17.560 my turn and um, when somebody had enlarged a photograph 0:56:17.600 --> 0:56:19.520 for me, and when I opened it up and saw 0:56:19.600 --> 0:56:25.600 the photograph, has just started crying a little bit photograph 0:56:25.719 --> 0:56:33.560 of my son. And um. Then Charlie said that what 0:56:33.880 --> 0:56:37.640 he said to the group, that what he didn't tell 0:56:37.680 --> 0:56:42.719 me was that that day that when after I heard 0:56:42.920 --> 0:56:45.400 heard what happened. He and I, Charlie and I were 0:56:45.520 --> 0:56:50.240 sitting on the couch and Charlie said, he felt Scott. 0:56:50.320 --> 0:56:53.360 My son's name was Scott. He felt Scott's presence in 0:56:53.400 --> 0:56:56.400 the in the living room. I felt Scott's presence in 0:56:56.440 --> 0:57:00.680 the living room um the day he died, and he 0:57:00.719 --> 0:57:05.080 was hovering above. And this man who I was thirty 0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:08.520 nine years old, who had been suffering all his life 0:57:08.840 --> 0:57:13.400 from mental illness and physical maladies. He was in a 0:57:13.440 --> 0:57:18.000 lot of pain. He was smiling down at the two 0:57:18.080 --> 0:57:26.120 of us, and he said, I'm free. And at that 0:57:26.400 --> 0:57:29.120 when I said that in front of Shelley, to the 0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:32.320 whole group there in Prospect Park, she burst like a 0:57:32.400 --> 0:57:38.880 damn and she began sobbing. And as I was sobbing, 0:57:39.520 --> 0:57:46.440 I could start to feel people energy around me, people 0:57:46.560 --> 0:57:53.200 coming touching my head, my shoulders, my legs, and I 0:57:53.240 --> 0:57:56.240 don't know how long I sobbed. I I kind of 0:57:56.360 --> 0:58:02.040 lost to I wasn't I It wasn't until I don't 0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:07.400 even know how long I sobbed. But then I realized 0:58:07.600 --> 0:58:12.800 I was kind of emptying myself out and because of 0:58:12.840 --> 0:58:15.680 the m D m A, I realized this afterwards, of course, 0:58:16.280 --> 0:58:20.440 because of the M D M A. I was able 0:58:20.640 --> 0:58:26.000 to receive their love and everything because they were on 0:58:26.200 --> 0:58:28.840 M D M A and they were able to give. 0:58:30.200 --> 0:58:33.960 And when I opened my eyes, it was a bit strange. 0:58:34.080 --> 0:58:38.200 I didn't see people at first. I saw I can 0:58:38.200 --> 0:58:44.200 only describe it like spirits, and they were dark, but 0:58:45.440 --> 0:58:50.520 it was I realized. I just felt calm, and when 0:58:50.560 --> 0:58:54.760 I opened my eyes, I finally when it cleared, I 0:58:54.800 --> 0:59:01.560 saw people, and uh, it was beautiful. I just I 0:59:01.640 --> 0:59:06.160 thanked them and said, how it's really helped me start 0:59:06.280 --> 0:59:11.120 my healing. And then I had told Charlie earlier that 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:14.880 I wanted to dance whatever happens in the circle. I 0:59:15.240 --> 0:59:18.240 don't know what's going to happen, but I want to 0:59:18.360 --> 0:59:24.840 dance to celebrate life, and that's what we did. Then 0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:27.480 I put some dance music on and we dance, and 0:59:27.520 --> 0:59:31.520 it was really an ecstatic moment because of the M 0:59:31.600 --> 0:59:37.560 D M A. Like Shelly said, um, she could feel 0:59:37.760 --> 0:59:43.640 without hesitation. Just at that moment when she heard me 0:59:43.680 --> 0:59:46.480 say that, Scott said he was free. She could just 0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:51.120 really expel all that grief and let it completely out. 0:59:51.600 --> 0:59:55.080 Were left her empty, and then when she opened her 0:59:55.120 --> 0:59:57.800 eyes she could see all these loving people around her, 0:59:58.320 --> 1:00:02.680 and she could just let herself fill up with their 1:00:02.800 --> 1:00:06.280 love and so the grief got replaced with the love. 1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:10.800 And sure, so Shelley still has has grief for her 1:00:10.840 --> 1:00:12.960 the passing of her son. Of course she will for 1:00:13.000 --> 1:00:16.080 the rest of her life, but she's never been debilitated 1:00:16.160 --> 1:00:20.440 by it because of that moment. It was not just 1:00:21.040 --> 1:00:23.280 M D m A that did it. It was M 1:00:23.320 --> 1:00:27.520 D m A in community and with the intention of 1:00:27.560 --> 1:00:32.200 healing that did it. A few days later, we got 1:00:32.200 --> 1:00:34.560 an email from a friend who was there who said, 1:00:34.680 --> 1:00:37.680 I never want to go to a traditional wake or 1:00:37.760 --> 1:00:40.880 funeral again for the rest of my life. This is 1:00:40.920 --> 1:00:44.240 the way to honor somebody who has passed. This is 1:00:44.240 --> 1:00:47.560 the way to heal those who have felt revealed the 1:00:47.680 --> 1:00:53.160 passing the most. Wow. Well that's uh, thank you so 1:00:53.240 --> 1:00:57.439 much for sharing that story, Charlie and Shelley. So that's 1:00:57.520 --> 1:01:01.720 somewhat somber note. I want to thank you both of 1:01:01.800 --> 1:01:05.160 you for taking the time to have this wonderful conversation 1:01:05.920 --> 1:01:10.240 um and UH with me and my listeners on Psychoactive. 1:01:10.760 --> 1:01:15.720 So thank you ever so much. Charlie, thank you so much. 1:01:20.600 --> 1:01:24.400 If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, 1:01:24.680 --> 1:01:26.840 or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts 1:01:26.960 --> 1:01:29.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear 1:01:29.760 --> 1:01:32.840 from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, 1:01:32.880 --> 1:01:36.000 comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one 1:01:36.240 --> 1:01:41.720 eight three three seven seven nine six that's eight three 1:01:41.840 --> 1:01:46.320 three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive 1:01:46.360 --> 1:01:49.480 at protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at 1:01:49.560 --> 1:01:52.920 Ethan natal Man. You can also find contact information in 1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:56.479 our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart 1:01:56.560 --> 1:02:01.360 Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman's 1:02:01.400 --> 1:02:05.320 produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers 1:02:05.440 --> 1:02:09.560 are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronotsky 1:02:09.600 --> 1:02:12.760 from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My 1:02:12.800 --> 1:02:16.720 Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by 1:02:16.760 --> 1:02:20.400 Ari Blucien and a special thanks to a Brio s 1:02:20.480 --> 1:02:34.480 f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Deep. Next week, for what 1:02:34.560 --> 1:02:38.040 will be the final episode of season two, we have 1:02:38.240 --> 1:02:42.600 my old friend and ally, Steve Rolds, longtime senior policy 1:02:42.640 --> 1:02:47.560 analyst at the British organization Transform talking with me about 1:02:47.760 --> 1:02:54.200 models and realities in legalizing cannabis and other drugs. If 1:02:54.240 --> 1:02:57.080 you are actually in the position of making their forms 1:02:57.080 --> 1:03:00.600 and drafting the legislations which shape the nature of the 1:03:00.680 --> 1:03:04.040 market from the outset, you have the power to do 1:03:04.120 --> 1:03:06.720 things very differently. And that's why you do have the 1:03:06.720 --> 1:03:10.960 possibility of social ecrity programs that restrict licensing or preference 1:03:11.040 --> 1:03:15.160 licensing for for impact to communities, and you are able 1:03:15.200 --> 1:03:19.000 to legislate that or seventy of tax revenue is redirected 1:03:19.000 --> 1:03:22.640 into impact to communities. And let's let's use cannabis regulations 1:03:22.680 --> 1:03:26.120 an opportunity to show how drugs can be regulated and 1:03:26.160 --> 1:03:29.400 how markets can be regulated in the interests of the 1:03:29.400 --> 1:03:33.520 communities in which those markets exist. Subscribe to Psychoactive now 1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:34.480 see it, an't miss it.