1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,079 Speaker 1: where we talk about all things drugs. But any of 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: view is expressed here do not represent those of my 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: not even represent my own and nothing contained in this 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: show should be used as medical advice or encouragement to 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: use any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Well, we're 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: approaching at the end of the second season of Psychoactive, 11 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: but in thinking about how I'd like the last or 12 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: penultimate episode to be, uh, you know, the notion of 13 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: getting more personal, going more deeply into the issue and 14 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: the questions around m d m A seemed to me 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: a good one. Obviously, we've talked about m d m 16 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: A before. There was the episode with Rick Doblin talking 17 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: about his history of the m d m A and 18 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: the trials that will hope to result in the f 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: d A approving m d m A and the next 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,639 Speaker 1: year or so. But our guest today is somebody who's 21 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: not an m d m A psychotherapist. He doesn't do 22 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: psychotherapy with m d m A. He's not part of 23 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: the trials that MAPS has been moving Forward and others, 24 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: but he's deeply knowledgeable about the subject. His name is 25 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: Charlie Wininger. He's the author of a book a couple 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: of years ago called Listening to Ecstasy, The Transformative Power 27 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: of m d m A. Now he's a licensed psychoanalyst 28 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: and mental health counselor in New York. He's been in 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: private practice more than thirty years. Some years years ago, 30 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: The New York Times and Newsday nicknamed him the quote 31 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: unquote love doctor because of his work with singles. But 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: now he's specializing more in relationships and communication. Skill isn't 33 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: dealing with love and couples and also grief. But I 34 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: also asked Um Charlie to invite his wife, Shelly on 35 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: the program as well, Shelley winning Gerald Um in part 36 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: because the book he and story he tells and Listening 37 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: to Ecstasy is so much about the relationship. I mean, 38 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 1: the two of them when I crossed paths with them 39 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: in New York City. They are an inseparable couple and 40 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: something about the most reminded me of Sasha and Anne 41 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: Shulgin if you think about their book Pekal, where half 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: the book is the chemical recipes for all sorts of 43 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: psychedelic substances. The other one is the story of their 44 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: love story and their use of various substances. So, Charlie Shelley, 45 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: thank you ever so much for joining me and my 46 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: listeners on Psychoactive. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. Charlie. Um. 47 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: You know I'll tell you reading your book, I mean, 48 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: it's really almost a story, UM of three loves, your 49 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: love with Shelley, your love of M d m A 50 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: and its value, and then a third story about your 51 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: love of community and the communities you're part of, UM 52 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: and that you've helped organize and curate. And so you know, 53 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: let me just start UM by asking you. I mean, 54 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: much of your book involves, you know, this, this period 55 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: twenty years ago when you and Shelley meet and it's 56 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: your second marriages and you fall in love and and 57 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: we'll get into that story. But in terms of your 58 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 1: earlier history of M D m A, had you done 59 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: it before, had it been less valuable to you in 60 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: your life? Was there a pre story there. M d 61 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: M A was not valuable to me at all until 62 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: I met Shelley. I had given it up. I had 63 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: only done it alone and recreationally. I didn't know about 64 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: the protocols at the time. I'm going back to the nineties, 65 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: and I didn't know about hydrating. I didn't know about 66 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: not mixing it with alcohol, all these basic fundamental mistakes. 67 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: So I had given it up for dead. I thought 68 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: that this was a substance without substance. Then I met Shelley, 69 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: and Shelley was like just recently sprung from a regressive marriage, 70 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: and she wanted to spread her wings. And when she 71 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: found out about my hippie past and I don't know 72 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: if it's all in the past um, and she found 73 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: out that I was a psychoanot and had been a 74 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: psychoanat for thirty years by the time I met her 75 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. She said she wanted to uh, she 76 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: wanted me to corrupt her basically, so I said about 77 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: doing so. And the first time we did M d 78 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: m A together was a true revelation for both of us. 79 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: Just seeing her come on, seeing her climb on M 80 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: d M A was like, I mean into my mind. 81 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: She it was beautiful to begin with, and um and 82 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: full of innocence and joy. And suddenly I realized that, Yeah, 83 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: this is the chemical of connection. This chemical is not 84 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: to be done alone. When I was alone, I felt 85 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: like I was and rolling alone. I felt like I 86 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: was all dressed up with nowhere to go. It's really 87 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: about connecting with myself but also with another and in 88 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: time many others uh and and uh intentional experiences that 89 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: we curated later on. Well, let me ask you know, 90 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: at one point you say in the book, Charlie that 91 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: that what you love most that that you find that 92 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: you came to recognize the things that you love most 93 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: about Shelley and M. D m A are similar, And 94 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: I wonder, Shelley, would you say the same about Charlie 95 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: and M D m A. What do you mean but similar? Well, Charlie, 96 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: what did you mean by similar? Well, um, that M. 97 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: D m A gets me right in the moment, and 98 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: that's really where Shelley lives. I have a more of 99 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:21,119 Speaker 1: my mind is heavy and convoluted, and I'm always thinking 100 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: about the past and the future. Shelley is more in 101 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: the here and now, and that's what M. D. M 102 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: A does for me as well. So that's a similarity 103 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: right there. I agree absolutely, m I just wanted to 104 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: say it also for me. At the very first time 105 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: I felt a live. I had been very oppressed, I 106 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: guess between my mother and my ex husband, and all 107 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: of a sudden everything well, my little handcuffs were released 108 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: and I felt beautiful. It was just amazing. And the 109 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: drug has continued to work for the two of you. 110 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, after many dozens of because now you're using it. 111 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: I think you said in the book, try three or 112 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: four times a year. And if you've been together for 113 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: over twenty years, well we've been We've done about eight 114 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: roles together in the experience, basically correct in the last 115 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: twenty years. Yes, And you know, another similarity is that 116 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: M D m A gets me and other people I've 117 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: met into a state of complete innocence, like a child, 118 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: like just happy to be alive and be with somebody 119 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: else that they like, just very simple and innocent and joyful. 120 00:07:54,640 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: And Shelley is uh really I experienced her as a 121 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: very her spirit is is very innocent and joyful. So 122 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: that's another way that there they are similar. Well, you know, 123 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: I mean, what really stands out for me in your 124 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: book is the ways in which you can I mean, 125 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: we'll talk about the ways you which can m d 126 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: m A to being a psychotherapist, but it's about the 127 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: notion of healthy aging. I mean you you you specifically 128 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: say healthy aging is not just for older people, um, 129 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: but also for younger people as well. But you know here, 130 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: I mean there's a sense in which I'm reading your book, 131 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: and I mean, I mean here we are you and 132 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: I were too, you know, bald headed, white goateed senior 133 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: citizens right dealing with aging in various ways and also 134 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: deeply immersed in are you more than I perhaps been 135 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: in a in a psychedelic community in New York and 136 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: more broadly right and the issues around aging, you know, 137 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: as our body's age, as all sorts of things age 138 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But you talk about the role 139 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: of m d m A and healthy aging is absolutely 140 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: pivot ingredient to making aging work. Well, so just um 141 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: a little more about that. I've learned that and this 142 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: I really only learned through uh having all these experiences 143 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: over the years with m d m A. It seems 144 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: to have a cumulative effect, at least for me. Uh, 145 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: so many experiences of being for four or five, six, seven, 146 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: eight hours feeling completely ageless, giving me a sense of 147 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: what it's like to uh feel like really ten thirty 148 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: forty years younger than I am. For that period of time, 149 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: I can dance like I'm not even dancing, I'm being 150 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: danced like the m D m A is the puppeteer 151 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: and I at the marionette and I'm and I'm being 152 00:09:55,640 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: danced and I'm moving to so light on my feet. Uh. 153 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: And it helped me realize that aging is that I've 154 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: been brainwashed about it. I think we all have, you know, 155 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: like the brainwashing goes like this past age five, your 156 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: stock goes down a point a year in terms of 157 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: your of your worth into society or socially. Uh. And 158 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: so that's why we are all on a hell bent 159 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: mission to try to say, oh, I'm not old, I'm 160 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: young at hard like old is old itself is a 161 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: dirty word that's like ridiculous uh and and oppressive. Uh. So, 162 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: I you know, somebody looks at me now and they say, uh, 163 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: you know, you look about sixties sixty five. I want 164 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: to shake them up, and they'll say, excuse me, I'm 165 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: about to be seventy four years old, and I earned 166 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: every year, and I'm happy and proud to be this age. 167 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: I don't want to be mistaken for younger, as if 168 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: that's some sort of compliment. It's not a compliment. That's 169 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: actually a backhanded insult. When somebody says you look good 170 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: for your age, I'm sorry, you look good for a 171 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: and fill in the blank with any other demographic and 172 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 1: it would be an insult. But but you look good 173 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: for your age means that, um, you don't look as 174 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: old as you really are, as if that's supposed to 175 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: be uh, make you more valuable in some way. So 176 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: I realized through doing M D M A a a lot 177 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: that all this was oppressing me, and that at any 178 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 1: age in my life, I am every age. In other words, 179 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: and it may help me get in touch with my 180 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: eight year old, my eighteen year old, my twenty eight 181 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: year old, and I can do that when I'm sober, 182 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: because my inner child, or my inner eighteen year old, 183 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: on my inner thirty year old has has thanks to 184 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: tell me and thanks to remind me of and that 185 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: that's vitality and spontaneity that I had then is still 186 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: available to me. And so M m A has really 187 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: helped me across the adult lifespan. Mm hmm. Well, for 188 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: our listeners, let me just read a few lines from 189 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: the book. From his book Listening to Ecstasy, he says, 190 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: at one point, there are two boxes in this world 191 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: one needs to avoid. His best one can the box 192 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: they put you in when you die, and then when 193 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: they try to put you in when you're alive. I 194 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: found the best way to delay the former is to 195 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: live a life outside the ladder. And at another point 196 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: he goes he describes m d m A as an 197 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: emotional decongested and says, I found my ability to appreciate 198 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: and benefit from medicines m d m A ripens with 199 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: age that for him, it's a chemical hedge against feeling 200 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: like aging's victim and against age related fear. Here we 201 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: have not an antidote, but a solve, a tonic, a 202 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: rejuvenating vacation that can replenish the fountain of one's youth. Shelley, 203 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: the same for you. Absolutely, when I roll, I do 204 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: become age, lists I don't think of how old I am. 205 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: And because even when I'm not rolling, I still my 206 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: brain that's still feel young. I mean, I'll tell you 207 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: in reading your book. Part of I had really almost 208 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: two kind of emotional reactions to it. One was how 209 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: much it reminded me of what I loved about M 210 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: D M A H in my relationships in the past, 211 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, in the role it played that you know, 212 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: in my relationship with my first wife, where I think, 213 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: you know, we were at the verge of divorce and 214 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: we did it, and it was really eye opening and 215 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: more than eye opening, soul opening, and I even though 216 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: it didn't result in saving our marriage, it helped us 217 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: to a softer landing, and then in subsequent relationships it 218 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: was just this incredibly valuable tool. And also, you know, 219 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: in terms of talking things through, in terms of being 220 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: clear with one, of being able to not just say 221 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: things well, but here things well. And I also noticed 222 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: even the very first time I did it, about being 223 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: in my body. It wasn't I burst out. Well, I 224 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: guess there was some dancing there, I mean, but I 225 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: remember feeling the energy. I always felt that the energy 226 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: of my body was very very much in my torso 227 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: and I never felt all that grounded. And the first 228 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: time I did M D M A I could almost 229 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: feel the energy pushing itself down my legs to kind 230 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: of become more grounded. And then on the music. I 231 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: remember the for the music we put on, it was 232 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: something called Earth Tribe Rhythm. It was this wonderful dancing music, 233 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: this drumming and electronic music. UM, that was just you know, 234 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: just inspiring and just with you know, dance like crazy 235 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: the same way that you're describing. But in the book 236 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: you talk about some other things. You talk about about 237 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: music and a good sound system, you talk about anchoring. 238 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: UM say something more first of all about what what 239 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: music goes well with what and why? Well, it depends 240 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: what you want to do. UM. A comedian once said, 241 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: I heard him on the TV said with M d M, 242 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: A people like to dance to E d M. And 243 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: he says, you know what E d M stands for. 244 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: It means everyone's doing molly. So I like the d M. 245 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: Electronic dance music, of course is what it really stands for. 246 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: And because that's for dancing, uh and also for me 247 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: good old rock and roll. But for if I'm not uh, 248 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: if I'm feeling more calm and uh and just hanging 249 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: out with my love, UM, we might put on some 250 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: Buddha bar or trip hop exotic Buddha Lounge in different 251 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: playlists like that, and shall you share the same taste 252 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: with Charlie in this matter? Oh yeah. When I first 253 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: met him, I pretty much I raised two children, so 254 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: I was listening to a lot of kids stuff and 255 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: listening to show tunes. So I introduced him to show tunes. 256 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: He introduced me to old fashioned rock and roll, and 257 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: little by little over the years we started playing with 258 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: different kinds of music and we found bootleannge for soft 259 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: for like Edgier music, or or bootle Lounge boudle bar, 260 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: which is softer. It's also very sexual, so that's nice. Well, 261 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: so I want to get into the sexual thing in 262 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: a moment. But what about I'm mixing M D M 263 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: A with other drugs, whether it's I guess well, a 264 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: candy flipping when you do with LSD or some people 265 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: have coning with our wana either before during year after. 266 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: What's your thoughts about about all of that? Well, Um, 267 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: New Year's Eve we candy flipped, which we like to 268 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: do if we can't make it to the Fish concert 269 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: because they want two dollars a ticket. Um, we can't 270 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: make it to Fish on New Year's Eve at Madison Square, garden, 271 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: then we'll we'll candy flip at home with M D 272 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: M A and LSD and tends to put us over 273 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: the edge. Really, it tends to put us in a 274 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 1: very blissful, blissful, deeply sensual space. But even then, if 275 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: if we're just doing M D M A and we 276 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: want to get it on um, which I always do 277 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: with my ageless angel Um, we will wait till the 278 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: end of the role because it's hard for Uh. It's 279 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: it's it's I just punned there as a bad pun 280 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: It's it's difficult, not it's hard for a man to 281 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: stay hard on M D M A. At least that's 282 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: the experience of a lot of men. So we wait 283 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: till the end of the role. As we're coming down 284 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: and add cannabis to it. Um. Shelley will take an edible, 285 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: which he has a lot very valuable things to talk 286 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: about about that, and I will just take some smoke, 287 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: some sativa, and then we can have what I'd like 288 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: to call sextasy, where we're just having an amazing sexual 289 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: encounter at the end of a role. So let me 290 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: shift here to Shelly, So Shelly um in terms of 291 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: cannabis and M d M A and these other things. 292 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: I mean throughout this book, and obviously you must have 293 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: given your okay for Charlie to do this. He describes 294 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: you as this incredibly sexual, sensual or gasmic you know, 295 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: evermore so as your age. I mean, it's a wonderful 296 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: description something. What element It reminded me of part of 297 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: the things that Anne Schilgren writes about when she does 298 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,959 Speaker 1: two CB with UH with Sasha. You know, I remember, 299 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: I think she talks about doing two c B at 300 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: one point and and just totally going through this horrific depression, 301 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: ego destruction, and then Sasha appears at the door and 302 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: the thing does a one eight and flips into this 303 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: utter beauty and she has the most the biggest, most 304 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: sustained orgasms of her life. She thereby, by the way, 305 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: said a lot of people up for for failure when 306 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: it came to like jumping, let's do two c B 307 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: and have sex, because people, if you could go into 308 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: that way, often it's just not gonna work that way. Um. 309 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: But but I'm curious, Shelley, So when Charlie is describing 310 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: you in this way, I'm assuming that you verified everything 311 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: he wrote about you in this book. So when it 312 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: comes to these different drugs, um and in terms of sexuality, 313 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: and I understand that you're oftentimes you know that you're 314 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: part of what you do is actually teaching younger women 315 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: about learning about their sexuality. So tell us about your 316 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: sexuality and especially as you've got it older, and the 317 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: various medicines or substances that you're using. Do you have 318 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: about a week, Well, not exactly, but how about the highlights? Okay, 319 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: the highlights. First of all, I found when we lived 320 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: in our first apartment, I was just starting to go 321 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: through menopause, and uh, we could hear the people in 322 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: the next in the next department, which meant they could 323 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: hear us. So I realized I I was very controlled 324 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: and I was I was sexy, I was sexual, but 325 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: not until we moved to our apartment now where we 326 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: have another building next to our building, so setting the 327 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: setting for me changed completely and that made me feel free. 328 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: I could be more verbal, which does help. It's only 329 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: in about two years and I've been playing with edible 330 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: cannabis because I have a vocal cord problem and my 331 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: doctor told me to use edible because the they was 332 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: causing problems. Well, I just started using cannabis at the 333 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: edible and it changed me completely. I am They say 334 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: that the brain is the largest sex organ in our body, 335 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: and I've been taking advantage of that. Uh. It focuses 336 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: on me, and many times I will take it before 337 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: Charlie is ready for me. And I just played with music. 338 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: I'll listen to music, I'll start focusing singing it on 339 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: different parts of my body. I'll start touching different parts 340 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: of my body. I'm learning more and more about my 341 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: body even now, and I feel that that a lot 342 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: of women don't know their body. They don't know it's 343 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: a lot of them don't even know that they're What 344 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: kind of orgasms there are? How many orgasms? I called 345 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: my little ones organs. I have lots of organs. And 346 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,479 Speaker 1: I started playing with music where I would listen to 347 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: different kinds of music and as it would vibrate, I 348 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: would focus the vibration down below. And I found I 349 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: could have an orgasm without touching myself, just using the 350 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: music in my brain. And when people hear that, they're like, 351 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: oh my god. Because I have to use edibles which 352 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: stay in your body longer, and I think really affect 353 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: the body. Maybe differently. I can't talk for people who 354 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: smoke or you know, babe whatever. I can only talk 355 00:22:54,240 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: about edibles. But yeah, it's some. It's it's very interesting 356 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: and I'm still learning. And I'll tell you a very 357 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: quick story. When I was in nursing school back in 358 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, I started nineteen six seventy a gynecollege. 359 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: Just came to talk to the whole freshman class because 360 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: we were all getting you know, we're eighteen years old, 361 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: nineteen years all living in New York City. He was 362 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: talking to us about the birth control pill, and then 363 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: he talked about something called the pelvic tilt. Now I 364 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: was a virgin. I really knew nothing about sex. A 365 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: few months ago. Uh, during sex, I realized I was 366 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: doing the pelvic tilt he was talking about fifty years ago, 367 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: and it meant just moving my body up so that 368 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: he was rubbing against my cletterest and giving me an orgasm. 369 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: M hm. So that that was like, whoa, we know 370 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: he took me this. You just came across recently. Yeah, 371 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: what a wonderful discovery. Yes, I do cannabis every week, 372 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: but but I a New Year's Eve when we candy flipped. Uh, 373 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: I ended up taking a little piece of edible and 374 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: because the m d M may seem to be overpowering 375 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: the LSD and we wanted to have sex, So I 376 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: took a little piece of edible and about it. Within 377 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: an hour, all of a sudden, the tapestry over our 378 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: bed is moving and I'm like, holy shit, I'm treating 379 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: And Charlie's like, oh, you mean the the uh did 380 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: the cannabis help the the m d M. A. I'm 381 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: like no, And I only took a little piece of acid. 382 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: I said it activated the acid. For the first time, 383 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: I was quote unquote tripping balls. I had never done 384 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: that that much before. It was very, very different. Uh. 385 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: Sex at that point I couldn't do because I could 386 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: barely speak. So we'll be talking more after we hear 387 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: this ad in the book right while you talk about 388 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: the importance of anchoring, right that during the NDEMA experience, 389 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: that one's getting the emotional psychological insights and that one 390 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: wants to kind of be conscious at that time of 391 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: how one can come back to those places. But I'm wondering, 392 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: both for you and Shelley, whether that's also true about sexuality, 393 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: like even leaving a part of cannabis. Um. Does one 394 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: get to places with the LSD or or M D 395 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: m A and sexuality that one can then anchor and 396 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: think about how long comes back to those that space 397 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: without the use of substances. Um, you know, in subsequent days, weeks, 398 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: or the rest of one's life. Yes. Um. And one 399 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: great way to anchor the experience is with the use 400 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: of music. And this is described in the book. But 401 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: also when you're high on whatever substance and you get 402 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: into a piece of music that you love, and if 403 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 1: it's a piece of music that makes you feel erotic sensual, uh, 404 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: you can make note of that and remember that and 405 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: then afterwards, uh, days or weeks later, when you're a 406 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: sober uh, you can play that music again and turn 407 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: down the lights and light some candles and and um, 408 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: hang out with your partner or yourself and get into 409 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: that same sensual or sexual mood. Shellyam, is it that 410 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: way for you as well? I mean, is there a 411 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: sense of that oh my god factors saying I can 412 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: I can get back here without these drugs? Um? Yes, 413 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: and no. When Charlie proposed to me, I was ecstatic 414 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: obviously pose to me on a Friday that next day, 415 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: we had planned to go up to a state park upstate, 416 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: which we did, and we took M D M A 417 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: and I listened to a song by Enya called Flora's 418 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: Secret because we were like the only ones in this 419 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: field the sun was shining and Floria's Secrets about flowers. 420 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: I listened to it about twenty times while under the 421 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: influence of M D M A. Even today, twenty some 422 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: odd years later, I or fifteen seventeen years later, I 423 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: could listen into that song and be brought back to 424 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: the feeling of lying under the sun being on M 425 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: D M A even now. Uh, that's the most impressive 426 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: one that I find. It still amazes me. Uh. There 427 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: is some psychedelic songs that Charlie plays sometimes, like the 428 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: Chambers Brothers. Uh Time has Come today. It's a very 429 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: hut Charlie trippy song. IM talking about the long version, 430 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: the FM version of eleven minute version. Time has Come Today. 431 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: It's that one of the best psychedelic songs ever ever produced. 432 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: And when I hear that song, it just puts me 433 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: in the mood no matter what I'm on or if anything, 434 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: What a blessing this has been from me? If you 435 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: ask me an age thirty, forty or fifty, what my 436 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: sex life would be as a seventy three year old man, 437 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: I would have frowned and said, I dread what would happen? 438 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: What will happen? But um, I was sex life keeps ripening, 439 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: keeps blossoming. Um and my wife, my this this I 440 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: called her my ageless Angels. She's more sexual than ever before. 441 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: So um, I'm just uh so blessed to have found her. Well, 442 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: let me ask this question. I mean, Shelley, Well, you're 443 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: describing is obviously just you know, um, you start using 444 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: edible two years ago, but that's when Charlie's book came out, 445 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: and he's already describing you as this incredibly sexual being 446 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: before that, and also about M D m A. So 447 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: I'm curious, Shelley, what about with M D M A. 448 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I mean Charlie described and it's 449 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: been sometimes my experience as well, that M D M 450 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: A could lead to really exquisite um sex, although virtually 451 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: never ending for me at least in an orgasm, that 452 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: it is almost impossible to orgasm, but that one could 453 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: get an incredibly sensual, you know, loving sexy, just delicious 454 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: delightful place. Um, but I'm what about from your perspective 455 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: in terms of M d m A and sex. Uh Okay, 456 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: One time at a music festival, I was standing up 457 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: and swaying to the music, and apparently I was rubbing 458 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: my legs together. I had an orgasm. I was I 459 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: was on m d m A at the time. Yes. 460 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: Add if we are together in bed and the m 461 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: d m A is still very active, um, the best 462 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: thing I can do for her is go down on 463 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: her um at that time because it might be hard 464 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: for me to get or stay hard, but I can 465 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: do other things. You know. I really appreciate your sharing 466 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: the story is here. On the other hand, I also 467 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: wonder you know, I mean, Charlie, I have to say 468 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: in reading your book, and you know, you're offering a 469 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: lot of wisdom and guidance about healthy aging and about sexuality. 470 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: But it also, you know, I keep having this you know, 471 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: questioning thing. Well, but Charlie, maybe you just met the 472 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: perfect woman to have this relationship with and it's less 473 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: about the drug and it's more about the woman. And 474 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,239 Speaker 1: obviously the drug is helping these things along. Um. You know, 475 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: but but I mean, you do you talk in the 476 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: book about you know, for the first two in your 477 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: twenties sorties and forties, for you was always finding some 478 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: woman who was highly intellectual and was all gonna you know, 479 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: ups and downs mood wise, and wasn't utterly gonna be 480 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: There's gonna be a lot of you know, a lot 481 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: of excitement, but a lot of grief. And then you 482 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: describe meeting Shelley, who was just this magical partner for you. 483 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: And I wonder about you know, if if you have 484 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: I don't want to have to go think about this, 485 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: but assuming you had never met Shelly, I mean with 486 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: this whole evolution in your life with M D m 487 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: A and sexual I mean, could it could you even 488 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: envision it having happened? Or was she just the key 489 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: to all of this? Uh? You you have you make 490 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: a good point. I mean, she Shelly and I are 491 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: unusually compatible. Um. But the thing is Ethan that I 492 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: think the age ism, the internalized ideas that we uh 493 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: that we inhale from this culture about what to expect 494 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: from ourselves and our partners or our future partners as 495 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: we age, is debilitating because we expect less in terms 496 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: of sexual connection, and you know, often women they go 497 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: through menopause, and many women feel like I'm done with sex. 498 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: That's it. I don't want to have sex anymore. And 499 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: that's obviously a very valid choice. All we're saying is 500 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: that there's another option, uh, and that couples don't have 501 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: to settle for a sexless marriage if they don't want to, 502 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: if they're having emotional troubles because they're fighting and and 503 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: and and that gets reflected in lack of a sex life. Okay, well, 504 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: then you need couples counseling because I've found that, you know, 505 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: it can it can get better with couples counseling. Shelley 506 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: and I have been to a couple's counselor many times 507 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: because we hit a human We hit snags along the way. Um, 508 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: but but we are unusually compatible. And uh, sex is 509 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: to have a sexually alive marriage is possible across the 510 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: whole adult lifespan. And you know, there's a whole spectrum 511 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: of sexual of sexuality between two people. It's not just 512 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: about intercourse. It can be about affection. Shelley and I 513 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: are affectionate, uh, through the day and through the week 514 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: with each other. We keep that aliveness there, that connection there, 515 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: and that was influenced not only by our strong love 516 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: for each other, but by M D M A that 517 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: helped us stay in the moment and realize that our 518 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: bodies are where we live. And when I touched her, 519 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: I feel her touching me, and uh and it it 520 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: brings me out of whatever craziness I'm rumination I have 521 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: in my head. Um she I wake up in the 522 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: morning and I'm full of a thousand thoughts. I walk 523 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: into the kitchen, she stands up and wants to hug me, 524 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: and my day is made at that point because she 525 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: just squeezes all the nonsense out of me at that 526 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: moment that I come to and I'm really awake man 527 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: for the rest of the day. You know, Charlie. One 528 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: thing you just spend a lot of time on in 529 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: the latter part of the book is dealing on the 530 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: one hand, with agism in our society, and not just 531 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: asism in terms of young people kind of making assumptions 532 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: about people who look older, but also in the ways 533 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: in which those assumptions are internalized. And then you describe 534 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: how you and Shelly do something which I can relate 535 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: to a lot, which is you oftentimes find yourself in 536 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: environments UM parties, things like that, UM where you're far 537 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: and away the oldest people there right where the most 538 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: of the people in their twenties or thirties, and there 539 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: you are in your late sixties or early seventies. And 540 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: what that's like and what you describe I think is 541 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, the lack of inhibition on 542 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: both your part and even more so Shelley's part. Um 543 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: that's actually really rejuvenating and and and and and sort 544 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: of you know, just stimulates a kind of renewed vitality 545 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: where you can feel your younger self, and even your 546 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: body for at least for those hours, can feel dramatically 547 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 1: younger than it actually is. When we are with younger people, 548 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: and it's often with people in the psychedelic community. UM, 549 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: suddenly those old notions of I call them apartheid, of 550 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: of of age segregation that exists in a town like 551 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: New York City, it falls away. And the benefit is 552 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: too way. It's in both directions. We benefit by being 553 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: around younger people who are filled with vitality and a 554 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: freshness that you ordinarily don't see in sixties and seventies 555 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 1: and eighty year olds. So we benefit from that. They 556 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: benefit from seeing us. Uh. Sometimes they want to, you know, 557 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: just be around us to gain whatever wisdom they think 558 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: we might have. UM. But also they want to be 559 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: around us because they see the love between us. It's 560 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: palpable and it gives them hope for their future. If 561 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,919 Speaker 1: they're single, it gives them hope to have a relationship 562 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: that that works like always does UM. But if the 563 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,879 Speaker 1: couple they can see that, yeah, the love can keep 564 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: going and keep growing through the decades. But I mean, 565 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: it sounds like you're trying to send a message to that. 566 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 1: On the one hand, the psychedelics community is quite accepting 567 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: of this age spectrum. But even so, to be in 568 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: a kind of parting environment is UM is unusual. And 569 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 1: you guys are sort of role models and you're talking 570 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: back the fact that seeing yourselves is as as owning 571 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: the notion of yourself as elders and even you know, 572 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: not quite putting into people's face, but saying we are 573 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: elder is there's something too. So I mean, when did 574 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: that first hit you that you're an elder? That you 575 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,800 Speaker 1: when we would go to a rave and people would 576 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: come up to us invariably and say, I'm so glad 577 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: you're here. You give me hope. They use a different 578 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: line sometimes than the one your friend got. He said, 579 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: You're what I want to be when I don't grow up. 580 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: So people are grateful to us for for showing up 581 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:37,240 Speaker 1: and showing that it's possible to to keep the party 582 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: going across the whole lifespan show. You share this feeling 583 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 1: of being an elder in the community. Oh, absolutely, I've had. 584 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: I had a woman come over to me back in October. 585 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: We were at a party and uh, she wanted to 586 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: know what you in her like early thirties. Do I 587 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: have any advice for her? And I said, and I 588 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: hadn't think because nobody has really asked me about advice. 589 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: And I said, go with your gut feelings, because I 590 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 1: have learned that if the gut is telling me one thing, 591 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: it's usually the right thing. I like to say that 592 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 1: the best part of the psychedelic community isn't the psychedelics, 593 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: it's the community. It's the people who are drawn to 594 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: these medicines are among the most open hearted, open minded, 595 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: curious seeking people that I would ever want to meet. 596 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: And so we've we've looked out in this way and 597 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: to be elder is it just seems um like, I 598 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: feel like we're in the right place at the right time, 599 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: especially in the middle of a renaissance. I mean, it's 600 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: fab lists. Well, you know, in the book, Charlie, you 601 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 1: put this in some historical context. I mean, at one 602 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: point you say, I wonder if my shift in drugs 603 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: of choice from cocaine when I was younger to m 604 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,879 Speaker 1: d m A corresponds to a larger shift in the zeitgeist, 605 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: one to a more feminine ethic. Consider the code names 606 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: for these two drugs, blow and molly, And then you 607 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 1: talk about you know, two key moments in two thousand 608 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: and four and five. I think it was first when 609 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,720 Speaker 1: Peter Jettings, the ABC News correspondent, does his special about 610 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: m DMA called Ecstasy Rising. And then around the same 611 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: time when Alex Gray, the famous Psychedelsis painter, and his 612 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: wife Allison, also a painter, you know, creates the Chapel 613 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: of Sacred Mirrors uh kasum c O s M. And 614 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,280 Speaker 1: when that opens in New York and sort of opens 615 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: up a culture. So it does seem that there was 616 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: I mean, here you and Shelley had what met in 617 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: the late nineties or around two thousand and then a 618 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: few years later there's this kind of both you know, 619 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: public media opening with with Peter Jettings thing and then 620 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: with Alex and Alison Gray doing Cosum. I mean when 621 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: you reflect back on that time, I mean, what did 622 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: it feel like then or was it you know, did 623 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: you were you just in the right place and right 624 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: time to be you know, part of this wave or 625 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: it was just part of a broader zeitgeist that was happening. 626 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,399 Speaker 1: You know that it was the world, like I say, 627 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: were in the right place at the right time, and 628 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 1: we still are um. Cosum opened in October first, two 629 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: thousand and four. I tell the whole story in the 630 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: book UH and UH and and Roland Griffith's was doing 631 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: this breakthrough work at UH at Johns Hopkins UH with 632 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 1: realizing that psilocybin can have these terrific beneficial effects for people, 633 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: and that was getting That was the first wave of 634 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: publicity that LSD or magic mushrooms or m D M 635 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: a UH that had been damned by the by the 636 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: government than the culture are actually solutions. They're not drug problems, 637 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: that drug solutions, and that they the narrative around these 638 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: substances began to change back then, and don't don't forget 639 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: that in twenty in two thousand and three, after Existas 640 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 1: Rosing was when we started our first polums where we 641 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: were able to a little Yeah, that's a very important 642 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: part of our life. Yeah, people listening to go back 643 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: to what you were just talking about there about community 644 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: that caused them Chapel secret inspires a kind of pop 645 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: up parties. You guys have your first gathering and that 646 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:45,879 Speaker 1: you know, and and that's part of the places where 647 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: you're interacting much younger people. But it's clear, Charlie that 648 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: you're very conscious and I guess really both of you, 649 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: you and Shelley in terms of bringing people together, you know, 650 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: emphasizing the value of community. Sometimes this involves M D 651 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: m A. Sometimes it is not, But just you know, 652 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm really impressed, and I know you've invited 653 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: me numerous times to to come to one of these gatherings, 654 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: and I I do intend effects sooner than later to 655 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: say yes to that um. But say more about these 656 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: gatherings and their apportance. And sure, as I said at 657 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: the beginning, you describe you three loves, right, Shelley, M 658 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 1: D m A and the communities that you're part of, 659 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: so talk about community. Well, Um, so we wanted to 660 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: host here. MAPS had sent out an email saying, anyone 661 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: who wants to host a screening of the Peter Jennings 662 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: UH interview a show called Ecstasy Rising in two thousand 663 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 1: and four, just let us know. So we let them know, 664 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: and they sent a bunch of people our way and 665 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: we all watched this together. That was our first pot luck. Um, 666 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: we all watched together and um, we we're talking till 667 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: like one or two am in the morning because we 668 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: had found each other. So every year after that, we 669 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: who would host a pot luck in our apartment, reaching 670 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: out two MAPS to say, you know, tell people in 671 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: the New York City vicinity, and you know that we 672 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: are opening our homes to UH to other MAPS members. 673 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: And over the years it would grow and finally we 674 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 1: couldn't contain it till one night anymore. It grew to 675 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: two nights, and then three nights. Now these years we 676 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: have people coming in over four nights, people per night 677 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: from the MAPS and the larger community to UH here 678 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: in New York City, the psychedelic community. And these are 679 00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: just blissful events because and they're sober events, UH, except 680 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: for a little wine or beer. That's it's a pot 681 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: luck and it's sober, and we're talking about the topic 682 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: that people agree on beforehand that they want to talk about, 683 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: like sex, drugs, and intimacy or whatever the topic is. 684 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:19,120 Speaker 1: And people get to meet and friendships get born on 685 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,760 Speaker 1: these nights that friendships that have lasted for for years 686 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 1: even decades now UH. This coming year into three, we 687 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: will we will be celebrating our twenty anniversary our potluck dinners, 688 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: and we're going to do something special to do this 689 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: and get a whole a whole lot of people together 690 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,800 Speaker 1: for a night, maybe rent the boat to go around Manhattan. 691 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: I don't know what we're gonna do, but we usually 692 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: do this in in UH later in the year. But 693 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: we've also hosted besides the potlucks, we've hosted definitely non 694 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: sober arrance is UH in Prospect Park where we're just 695 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,360 Speaker 1: gather people together, twenty five people, thirty five people, forty 696 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: five people and to the outside world, it just looks 697 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: like a bunch of people having a picnic except for 698 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:21,280 Speaker 1: the occasional cuddle puddle, but we're just having a blissful 699 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: time together for the day and for people who participate 700 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: in that, and anyone can do this, by the way, 701 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: any listener of this show, Uh, you know people or 702 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: you can you can find people who will do this 703 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,319 Speaker 1: with you. And it's a wonderful way to get to 704 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 1: know people. There's no better way to spend the day, 705 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,840 Speaker 1: uh than rolling together on M D m A and 706 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: just getting to know each other. And because as you know, 707 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 1: M D M A opens the heart and opens the 708 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: mind and just to make that connection. People want to 709 00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: stay connected after these group experiences. For here is UM 710 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: and they do. It's a great way to to make 711 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: new friendships and it's been a wonderful blessing for Shelly 712 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,879 Speaker 1: and I. Charlie, is there any advice you can tell 713 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: the listeners about how they actually can are there are 714 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 1: there websites or anything else to figure out how you 715 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:24,920 Speaker 1: tap into this community in your local area? Well, um, yeah, 716 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,919 Speaker 1: there are many websites, UM certainly Uh if somebody wants 717 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: to tap into the community, they can give me, uh, 718 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: send me an email. You can you can get into 719 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,440 Speaker 1: my website and listening to ecstasy dot com or Charlie 720 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 1: Wininger dot com and uh C J Wininger at gmail 721 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 1: dot com is my email address. But they're also like 722 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 1: here in New York. Uh, there's a Brooklyn Psychedelic Society 723 00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: which is very popular. And the Psychedelic Society's all over 724 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: the country. You just have to do some digging. They're 725 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: not underground. They are It's not a place to go 726 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,800 Speaker 1: to get high. It's not a place to go to 727 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: find a source. It's a place to go to meet 728 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,800 Speaker 1: other people. And uh sometimes it's a meet up dot 729 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 1: org or you can start your own psychedelic society in 730 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,480 Speaker 1: your town. Believe me, there are people within ten miles 731 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: of you, lots of people within ten miles of you 732 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,720 Speaker 1: who are doing psychedelics and they're just keeping it quiet 733 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 1: like you might be keeping it quiet. But they're out 734 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: there and they want to meet you. So there are 735 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:44,560 Speaker 1: friendships waiting to be made. Let's take a break here 736 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:59,440 Speaker 1: and go to an air no try. I want to 737 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: take up another issue though with you, which is you 738 00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: also describe some history of struggling with substance abuse, with 739 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,919 Speaker 1: cocaine and with amphetamine and having a father was alcoholic 740 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,799 Speaker 1: and and you also then talk about how M D 741 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 1: m A has helped you in this regard that if 742 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 1: you know, whereas you have to be careful. There are 743 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 1: people who can get addicted to M d m A. 744 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 1: It is possible, and people do abuse it in that way. Um, 745 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,799 Speaker 1: but it also can be helpful. So just say more 746 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: about that. Well, um, yeah, it's a whole story. But um, 747 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 1: I was struggling with cocaine for a while and the 748 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,080 Speaker 1: best definition of cocaine I ever heard was Robin Williams 749 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: calling it the devil's dandruff. Um it's just for some 750 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: people it works, I'm sure, but for me, it it 751 00:49:53,719 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: worked me. Um, cocaine was doing me. I wasn't doing cocaine. Um, 752 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: it was. It was abusing me. And I realized that 753 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 1: I had to quickly quickly make a choice. It was 754 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: gonna win or I was going to win. So UM, 755 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: I found two key, two keys, one illegal and one 756 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 1: not legal. Uh. The not legal key for me was 757 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: M d M A because I soon discovered that M 758 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 1: d M A was a far far superior medicine because 759 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,319 Speaker 1: it lasts longer, because it doesn't have addictive qualities like 760 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: cocaine notoriously does not everyone gets addicted to cocaine who 761 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,480 Speaker 1: uses it, but a lot of people do. I I 762 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 1: was getting there. Um. Uh. And M D m A 763 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:51,239 Speaker 1: is not addictive for me and for most people. Uh. 764 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:55,239 Speaker 1: And it lasts a lot longer, it's a whole lot cheaper, 765 00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:00,680 Speaker 1: it has all kinds of of of benefits. The legal 766 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:08,239 Speaker 1: route that helped me was very dark chocolate, and I'm 767 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: talking about hundred bitter chocolate. Most people eat chocolate for 768 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,880 Speaker 1: the taste. I eat it for the effect because it 769 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,280 Speaker 1: sends me in just a little bit of the same 770 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 1: direction of cocaine or M D m A. It's a 771 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:32,200 Speaker 1: stimulant and it's a mood elevator. And so I am 772 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,920 Speaker 1: now a t alcoholic, which is a perfectly functional addiction 773 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,279 Speaker 1: to have at all. The hundred percent dark chocolate with 774 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,319 Speaker 1: dates in it, and it's just it's just wonderful and 775 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,800 Speaker 1: it it elevates my mood and it helps uh sex 776 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:56,120 Speaker 1: as well. Uh. And it's um and it's healthy. So 777 00:51:56,440 --> 00:52:00,439 Speaker 1: these things have helped me. I haven't done cocaine in 778 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:06,320 Speaker 1: what about eleven twelve years now, and so I'm very 779 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,880 Speaker 1: I'm very happy about that, mm hmm. And when you 780 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:12,839 Speaker 1: think about how you're in D M A use has 781 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:19,239 Speaker 1: shaped your your approach to being a psychotherapist, I mean 782 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,600 Speaker 1: is it a monumental impact on that or just kind 783 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,360 Speaker 1: of a you know, it's help you refine be more empathic. 784 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,520 Speaker 1: I mean, what are they? What are the key, what's 785 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,440 Speaker 1: the relationship there? It's helped me become a better therapist, 786 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 1: because I mean I was fairly empathetic to begin with, 787 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:41,240 Speaker 1: but of course m d m A helps amplify one's 788 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: uh proclivity towards empathy. And having had eighty roles, I 789 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,920 Speaker 1: know what feels like in my heart to empathize with 790 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:55,600 Speaker 1: somebody physically UM, and I can anchor that and bring 791 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,120 Speaker 1: it into the therapy session. I do therapy so but 792 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,239 Speaker 1: the client is sober, and I am sober. But I 793 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,440 Speaker 1: found that the best therapy I can do, that I 794 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:11,200 Speaker 1: can provide is if I can try to make try 795 00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:16,200 Speaker 1: to create an atmosphere and environment in the therapy room 796 00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,400 Speaker 1: that replicates the m d m A experience. And what 797 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean by that is being receptive to the person, 798 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 1: listening deeply into and through exactly all that they're saying 799 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:36,719 Speaker 1: and all that they're conveying, really being there uh and 800 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: reflecting back to them what I hear and UH and 801 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 1: and empathizing and showing compassion as best as I can, 802 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 1: and when they feel safe, their defenses can come down 803 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: a bit, and when the defenses come down, they can 804 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,839 Speaker 1: come out a bit and risk being vulnerable right there 805 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:02,680 Speaker 1: in the therapy session, and that's where the healing can 806 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,600 Speaker 1: really start taking place. And when we think about m 807 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,319 Speaker 1: d m A, I mean, obviously the you know, the 808 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,360 Speaker 1: research is being done out by MAPS in terms of 809 00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: treating PTSD, and there's all the looking at its value 810 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:18,200 Speaker 1: in other areas, maybe including a diction, maybe including eating disorders, 811 00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,920 Speaker 1: maybe including you know, fear around end of life. But 812 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,240 Speaker 1: when we think about m d m A and helping 813 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,880 Speaker 1: people deal with grief or the grief the loss of 814 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,799 Speaker 1: a loved one, um, what can you say about that? 815 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,799 Speaker 1: How much time do we have? Ethan? I mean, I'm 816 00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:39,640 Speaker 1: also I'm hesitated because you know, I know when when 817 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,439 Speaker 1: when when we all had dinner with some friends last year, 818 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,800 Speaker 1: and Shelly, you told the story about about the loss 819 00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,920 Speaker 1: of your son and also about how I think m 820 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,560 Speaker 1: d m A was helpful in dealing with that. But 821 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know if you want to 822 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,400 Speaker 1: go there. I know it's painful to talk about, So Shelly, 823 00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,799 Speaker 1: if you're willing to share that store. I think it 824 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:05,520 Speaker 1: would be interesting in lightening for our listeners. Okay, so 825 00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:10,080 Speaker 1: I made thirteen. Um, my son died. He was thirty 826 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 1: nine years old, and this was we already knew that 827 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,560 Speaker 1: we were going to have a group of a group 828 00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,960 Speaker 1: role and people were asking was shall we going to 829 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:29,239 Speaker 1: be in on it? And I said absolutely to use 830 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,640 Speaker 1: M D M A to help me in my grief. 831 00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:39,440 Speaker 1: It could be it could be perfect. So we um. 832 00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 1: We went to Prospect Park in about an hour and 833 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:47,279 Speaker 1: a half for so into the experience, Charlie called us 834 00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,919 Speaker 1: into a circle whoever wanted to participate. There was one 835 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,040 Speaker 1: person who came down from Boston. Actually he had lost 836 00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,879 Speaker 1: his mother the same day that I lost my son, 837 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,920 Speaker 1: and he spoke about his mother a little bit. And 838 00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:06,280 Speaker 1: then other people who had lost people in the past 839 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,520 Speaker 1: year had spoken about their people. And then it was 840 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 1: my turn and um, when somebody had enlarged a photograph 841 00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,520 Speaker 1: for me, and when I opened it up and saw 842 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:25,600 Speaker 1: the photograph, has just started crying a little bit photograph 843 00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:33,560 Speaker 1: of my son. And um. Then Charlie said that what 844 00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:37,640 Speaker 1: he said to the group, that what he didn't tell 845 00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: me was that that day that when after I heard 846 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,400 Speaker 1: heard what happened. He and I, Charlie and I were 847 00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:50,240 Speaker 1: sitting on the couch and Charlie said, he felt Scott. 848 00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,360 Speaker 1: My son's name was Scott. He felt Scott's presence in 849 00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,400 Speaker 1: the in the living room. I felt Scott's presence in 850 00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 1: the living room um the day he died, and he 851 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:05,080 Speaker 1: was hovering above. And this man who I was thirty 852 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,520 Speaker 1: nine years old, who had been suffering all his life 853 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:13,400 Speaker 1: from mental illness and physical maladies. He was in a 854 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:18,000 Speaker 1: lot of pain. He was smiling down at the two 855 00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:26,120 Speaker 1: of us, and he said, I'm free. And at that 856 00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:29,120 Speaker 1: when I said that in front of Shelley, to the 857 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,320 Speaker 1: whole group there in Prospect Park, she burst like a 858 00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:38,880 Speaker 1: damn and she began sobbing. And as I was sobbing, 859 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:46,440 Speaker 1: I could start to feel people energy around me, people 860 00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:53,200 Speaker 1: coming touching my head, my shoulders, my legs, and I 861 00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,240 Speaker 1: don't know how long I sobbed. I I kind of 862 00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:02,040 Speaker 1: lost to I wasn't I It wasn't until I don't 863 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:07,400 Speaker 1: even know how long I sobbed. But then I realized 864 00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:12,800 Speaker 1: I was kind of emptying myself out and because of 865 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,680 Speaker 1: the m D m A, I realized this afterwards, of course, 866 00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:20,440 Speaker 1: because of the M D M A. I was able 867 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:26,000 Speaker 1: to receive their love and everything because they were on 868 00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:28,840 Speaker 1: M D M A and they were able to give. 869 00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,960 Speaker 1: And when I opened my eyes, it was a bit strange. 870 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 1: I didn't see people at first. I saw I can 871 00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:44,200 Speaker 1: only describe it like spirits, and they were dark, but 872 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:50,520 Speaker 1: it was I realized. I just felt calm, and when 873 00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,760 Speaker 1: I opened my eyes, I finally when it cleared, I 874 00:58:54,800 --> 00:59:01,560 Speaker 1: saw people, and uh, it was beautiful. I just I 875 00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:06,160 Speaker 1: thanked them and said, how it's really helped me start 876 00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:11,120 Speaker 1: my healing. And then I had told Charlie earlier that 877 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to dance whatever happens in the circle. I 878 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,240 Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen, but I want to 879 00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:24,840 Speaker 1: dance to celebrate life, and that's what we did. Then 880 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,480 Speaker 1: I put some dance music on and we dance, and 881 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:31,520 Speaker 1: it was really an ecstatic moment because of the M 882 00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:37,560 Speaker 1: D M A. Like Shelly said, um, she could feel 883 00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:43,640 Speaker 1: without hesitation. Just at that moment when she heard me 884 00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,480 Speaker 1: say that, Scott said he was free. She could just 885 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:51,120 Speaker 1: really expel all that grief and let it completely out. 886 00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:55,080 Speaker 1: Were left her empty, and then when she opened her 887 00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:57,800 Speaker 1: eyes she could see all these loving people around her, 888 00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,680 Speaker 1: and she could just let herself fill up with their 889 01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:06,280 Speaker 1: love and so the grief got replaced with the love. 890 01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,800 Speaker 1: And sure, so Shelley still has has grief for her 891 01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:12,960 Speaker 1: the passing of her son. Of course she will for 892 01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:16,080 Speaker 1: the rest of her life, but she's never been debilitated 893 01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:20,440 Speaker 1: by it because of that moment. It was not just 894 01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,280 Speaker 1: M D m A that did it. It was M 895 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,520 Speaker 1: D m A in community and with the intention of 896 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:32,200 Speaker 1: healing that did it. A few days later, we got 897 01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:34,560 Speaker 1: an email from a friend who was there who said, 898 01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,680 Speaker 1: I never want to go to a traditional wake or 899 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,880 Speaker 1: funeral again for the rest of my life. This is 900 01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,240 Speaker 1: the way to honor somebody who has passed. This is 901 01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,560 Speaker 1: the way to heal those who have felt revealed the 902 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:53,160 Speaker 1: passing the most. Wow. Well that's uh, thank you so 903 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:57,439 Speaker 1: much for sharing that story, Charlie and Shelley. So that's 904 01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:01,720 Speaker 1: somewhat somber note. I want to thank you both of 905 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,160 Speaker 1: you for taking the time to have this wonderful conversation 906 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:10,240 Speaker 1: um and UH with me and my listeners on Psychoactive. 907 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:15,720 Speaker 1: So thank you ever so much. Charlie, thank you so much. 908 01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,400 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, 909 01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:26,840 Speaker 1: or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts 910 01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:29,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear 911 01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,840 Speaker 1: from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, 912 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,000 Speaker 1: comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one 913 01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:41,720 Speaker 1: eight three three seven seven nine six that's eight three 914 01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:46,320 Speaker 1: three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive 915 01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,480 Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at 916 01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,920 Speaker 1: Ethan natal Man. You can also find contact information in 917 01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,479 Speaker 1: our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart 918 01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:01,360 Speaker 1: Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman's 919 01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,320 Speaker 1: produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers 920 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:09,560 Speaker 1: are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronotsky 921 01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,760 Speaker 1: from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My 922 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:16,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by 923 01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:20,400 Speaker 1: Ari Blucien and a special thanks to a Brio s 924 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:34,480 Speaker 1: f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Deep. Next week, for what 925 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:38,040 Speaker 1: will be the final episode of season two, we have 926 01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:42,600 Speaker 1: my old friend and ally, Steve Rolds, longtime senior policy 927 01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:47,560 Speaker 1: analyst at the British organization Transform talking with me about 928 01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:54,200 Speaker 1: models and realities in legalizing cannabis and other drugs. If 929 01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,080 Speaker 1: you are actually in the position of making their forms 930 01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,600 Speaker 1: and drafting the legislations which shape the nature of the 931 01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:04,040 Speaker 1: market from the outset, you have the power to do 932 01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,720 Speaker 1: things very differently. And that's why you do have the 933 01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:10,960 Speaker 1: possibility of social ecrity programs that restrict licensing or preference 934 01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:15,160 Speaker 1: licensing for for impact to communities, and you are able 935 01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:19,000 Speaker 1: to legislate that or seventy of tax revenue is redirected 936 01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,640 Speaker 1: into impact to communities. And let's let's use cannabis regulations 937 01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:26,120 Speaker 1: an opportunity to show how drugs can be regulated and 938 01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:29,400 Speaker 1: how markets can be regulated in the interests of the 939 01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,520 Speaker 1: communities in which those markets exist. Subscribe to Psychoactive now 940 01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:34,480 Speaker 1: see it, an't miss it.