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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Donald Trump sent seven COVID tests

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Speaker 1: of Vladimir Putin in twenty twenty during the height of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. We have such a great show for you today.

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Speaker 1: Talking Fed's host Harry Littman stops by to talk to

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Speaker 1: us about the latest of Trump's legal woes. Then we'll

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Speaker 1: talk to Professor Jeff Jarvis about his new book, The

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Speaker 1: Web we Weave, Why we must reclaim the Internet from moguls, misanthropes,

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Speaker 1: and moral panic.

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Speaker 2: But first the news.

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Speaker 3: Somali Bob Woodward been putting out blockbuster headlines for longer

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Speaker 3: than you and I have been alive. He's got some

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Speaker 3: more for us. What are you seeing here?

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Speaker 1: Bob Woodward back with another blockbuster book, filled with information

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Speaker 1: that might have been useful as a little bit earlier,

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Speaker 1: but we'll take it. I think that we saw the

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Speaker 1: COVID test, the Putin COVID test mailings came from that.

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Speaker 1: But also, perhaps even more bafflingly and importantly, Woodward recounts

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Speaker 1: a moment in mar Lago where Trump tells his senior

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Speaker 1: aide to leave the room so he can have a

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Speaker 1: private conversation. This is after he's left the presidency with

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Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin. According to Trump's aids, Trump and Putin have

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Speaker 1: talked on the phone multiple times and maybe as many

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Speaker 1: as seven calls during the period since he's been president.

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Speaker 1: Woodward even went so far as to ask Chason Miller

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Speaker 1: whether Trump and Putin had spoken after he left the

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Speaker 1: White House. Chason Miller came shot back with the very definitive.

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Speaker 2: Um, uh not that, uh not that I'm aware of.

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Speaker 1: Miller told Bob Woodward, expect more of these shocking revelations.

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Speaker 3: Smile as we learn this week. Trump didn't want to

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Speaker 3: do sixteen Minutes because they would fact check him, so

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Speaker 3: he went to the warm arms of Fox News is

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Speaker 3: Laura Ingram, who then fact checked him.

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Speaker 1: We were talking before this about the Trump fact check

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Speaker 1: and putting it in the news section, and you said

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Speaker 1: that was Laura Ingram and I said, no, that can't

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Speaker 1: be right. I said it cannot have been that Laura

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Speaker 1: Ingram fact checked Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: The funny thing is I had done this before because

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Speaker 3: I didn't believe it. The only reason I was confident

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Speaker 3: about is because I'd already fact checked.

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Speaker 2: This, right.

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Speaker 1: I went online and I said, oh my god, I'm shocked.

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Speaker 1: So imagine the level of lying that has to happen

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Speaker 1: for Laura Ingram to interject. Donald Trump was musing about

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Speaker 1: how Vice President Harris was not where she should have

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Speaker 1: been in North Carolina visiting people who had been ravaged

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Speaker 1: by this most recent hurricane, not the hurricane that is coming,

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Speaker 1: and Laura interjected, she was there today for three hours,

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Speaker 1: I believe. Now, I would love to know what producers

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Speaker 1: were saying in her ear and what the thinking was

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Speaker 1: where they actually interrupted Trump lying to fact check.

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Speaker 2: But whatever it was, whoe whoa whoa.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was not in the sea of disinformation that

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of us have been very shocked

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Speaker 3: about how much disinformation has come out around this hurricane.

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Speaker 3: I did not expect Laura Ingram to be a beacon of.

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Speaker 1: Hope speaking of disinformation. Oh yes, it gets us right

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Speaker 1: to our next thing in news, Well, what.

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Speaker 3: Would you expect to happen when Elon Musk sits down

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Speaker 3: with Tucker Carlson for his podcast.

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk son of Pennsylvania because he went to University

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Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania for three years and is now saying that

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Speaker 1: he actually lived in Pennsylvania. By the way, I love

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Speaker 1: the idea that the right is claiming to be the

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Speaker 1: party of the working man while having a Trump surrogate

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Speaker 1: who is a nefarious South African billionaire whose only contact

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Speaker 1: was the state was the three years he went to

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Speaker 1: an Ivy League college there. Okay, sure, but this is

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Speaker 1: not actually why he's on the news cycle today. He

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Speaker 1: and you may remember Tucker Carlson, America's favorite frozen Fish Air,

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Speaker 1: did a little video together where they're like sitting in

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Speaker 1: space being served by a woman, which is like looks

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Speaker 1: sort of like they're in some kind of afterlife simulation.

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Speaker 3: I saw this as the anti Charlie Rose space right.

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Speaker 2: A white box, a female assistant.

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Speaker 3: Make it the White Power Hour, have its own aesthetic.

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Speaker 1: They were joking because that's what these two humorous fellows do,

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Speaker 1: and they were joking about killing the president and the

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Speaker 1: Vice president. Elon Musk sits atop of tons and tons

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Speaker 1: of government contracts. He's a contractor. In fact, he has

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Speaker 1: security clearances, numerous ones. He is working on things that

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Speaker 1: are being paid for by the federal government right now,

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Speaker 1: and he is joking about why no one has tried

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Speaker 1: to kill Joe Biden. Musk ads it's pointless, and then

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Speaker 1: Carlson Fozen Fish Air to the Stars replies, totally.

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Speaker 3: He actually said that's deep and true though, about them

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Speaker 3: putting it a puppet, which really he's hit rock bottom,

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Speaker 3: even lower than his Fox show about just aggregating the

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Speaker 3: most unhingish conspiracy theories. Just Alex Jones, shit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I also think that it's just sort of beyond

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Speaker 1: the pale and just as shocking as one could guess,

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Speaker 1: and one could expect it's even worse. So here we

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Speaker 1: have two bits of news that make actually Fox seem

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Speaker 1: better than elon a pretty low bar.

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Speaker 3: I'll say, well, let's take the bar even lower. We're

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Speaker 3: going to go a place where we should have a

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Speaker 3: very high bar, which is the Supreme Court. And there's

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Speaker 3: new news about how Justice Brett Kegstan Kavanaugh got confirmed.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, you'll remember Justice Kavanaugh. Keggstand September twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and Donald Trump says that the FBI would have free

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Speaker 1: reign to vet the claims that he had sexually harassed

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Speaker 1: and assaulted women in college. Trump said the FBI was

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Speaker 1: free to talk to everyone he had it on social media.

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Speaker 1: I want them to interview whoever they deem appropriate at

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Speaker 1: their discretion. Well, guess what, I know you're going to

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Speaker 1: be shocked to hear this. But Donald Trump was lying

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Speaker 1: and those comments came as a surprise the FBI, who,

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Speaker 1: according to a new report, which would not have been

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Speaker 1: released had it not been for a friend of this podcast,

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Speaker 1: Senator Sheldon white House, actually requested the directed them to

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Speaker 1: conduct a very limited inquiry in a week's time, requested

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Speaker 1: additional guidance from the White House, citing public remarks by

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Speaker 1: Trump and other officials describing a free, willing investigation. But

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Speaker 1: the White House never authorized the agency to independently probe

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Speaker 1: these sexual misconduct allegations. So Justice Kavanaugh just got pushed

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Speaker 1: in there without the formal vetting that he should have gotten.

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Speaker 2: Why are none of us surprised?

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Speaker 3: We have even more tour dates for you. Did you

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Speaker 3: know the Lincoln Projects, Rick Wilson have Fast Politics. Male

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Speaker 3: jug Fast are heading out on tour to bring you

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Speaker 3: a night of laughs for our dark political landscape. Join

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Speaker 3: us on August twenty sixth at San Francisco at the

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Speaker 3: Swedish American Hall, or in La on August twenty seventh

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Speaker 3: at the Regent Theater. Then we're headed to the Midwest.

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Speaker 3: We'll be at the Bavariam in Milwaukee on the twenty

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Speaker 3: first of September, and on the twenty second, we'll be

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Speaker 3: in Chicago at City Winery. Then we're going to hit

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Speaker 3: the East coast on September thirtieth. We'll be in Boston

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Speaker 3: that arts at the Armory. On the first of October,

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Speaker 3: will be in affiliate City Winery, and then DC on

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Speaker 3: the second at the Miracle Theater. And today we just

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Speaker 3: announced that we'll be in New York on the fourteenth

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Speaker 3: of October at Citywinery. If you need to laugh as

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Speaker 3: we get through this election and hopefully never hear from

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Speaker 3: a guy who lives in a golf club again, we

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Speaker 3: got you covered. Join us in our surprise guests to

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Speaker 3: help you laugh instead of cry your way through this

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Speaker 3: election season and give you the inside analysis of what's

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Speaker 3: really going on right now. Buy your tickets now by

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Speaker 3: heading to Politics as Unusual dot bio. That's Politics as

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Speaker 3: Unusual dot bio.

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Speaker 1: Harry Littman is a former US attorney and host of

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Speaker 1: the podcast Talking Fans.

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Speaker 4: Oh Yes, Oh Yes, Oh Yes, it's our latest Molly mashup.

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Speaker 4: Really so happy to be joined by Mollie john Fast

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Speaker 4: and are now I can't even count them. Regular gigs

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Speaker 4: of exchanging political questions that I feeled I throw at

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Speaker 4: Molly and legal questions she throws back in me. Thanks

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Speaker 4: as always? Should I start?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right.

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Speaker 4: I don't normally go international, I don't normally go Jewish,

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Speaker 4: but yesterday was the one year anniversary of the slaughter

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Speaker 4: in Israel, and of course we're between Russia, shot and Yankipoor.

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Speaker 4: So I just wanted to ask you, Mollie. You had

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Speaker 4: an article in Vanity Fair about what you called Trump's

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Speaker 4: efforts to divide American Jews? What inspired you to write

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Speaker 4: the article and why now? And a quick follow up

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Speaker 4: is what do you make of this claim that a

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Speaker 4: lot of American Jews buy that Trump is, in fact,

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Speaker 4: whatever else, he may be better for Israel?

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, thank you for that question. I did write

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Speaker 1: about that. I completely forgot I wrote about it, which

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Speaker 1: is such a great moment to be in. I do

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Speaker 1: think that this has been a long time thing where

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Speaker 1: the right tells the laugh that they can't be good

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Speaker 1: Jews because they should be more loyal to Israel.

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Speaker 2: This is yet another moment where everything is weird.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: During that speech, which was about quote unquote fighting anti Semitism,

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Speaker 1: Trump talked about how Jews are actually more loyal to

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Speaker 1: Israel than they are to the United States, and so

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Speaker 1: they should vote for him because he really likes Israel,

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Speaker 1: which is of course an anti Semitic trope, right, the

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Speaker 1: idea that Jews cannot be loyal to the country that

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Speaker 1: they come from. I don't know, you know, my grandparents

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Speaker 1: were all born in this country, so we've been here

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Speaker 1: many generations.

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Speaker 2: I've never been to Israel.

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Speaker 1: I think that the reality of my Jewishness does not

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Speaker 1: define how I feel about politics, and the idea that

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Speaker 1: another country should take president over my feeling towards America

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Speaker 1: is wild.

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Speaker 2: So, but it's a long time thing.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny because it's like my grandfather, who was

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Speaker 1: a Communist writer or jailed for the House of American Activities,

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Speaker 1: would often fight with these conservative Jews.

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Speaker 2: And he was a Zionist as anyone, right, because he

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Speaker 2: he really I mean, he had lived.

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Speaker 1: Through the Holocaust and he had I mean, he had

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Speaker 1: been in the United States, obviously, but yet he had

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Speaker 1: worked for the United States government during World War Two,

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Speaker 1: and he was as committed a patriot as anyone, but

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Speaker 1: he understood the importance of a Jewish homeland after the

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Speaker 1: you know, the slaughterer of so many Jews.

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Speaker 2: But he also really did fight.

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Speaker 1: It out with those right wingers who called liberal je

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Speaker 1: just disloyal. I mean, it's just an argument that the

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Speaker 1: right has been using against the left for a very,

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Speaker 1: very long time, and I just wanted to write about

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Speaker 1: it a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Got it.

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Speaker 4: I'll just say quickly, all right, what Trump has said

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Speaker 4: about October seventh, if he had been president, it wouldn't

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Speaker 4: have happened. You know, it's not at all clear to

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Speaker 4: me that he's the better candidate.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, he's certainly not the better candidate for Israel,

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Speaker 1: and the idea that net Yahoo is the best president

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Speaker 1: for Israel also is something that many of the Israeli

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Speaker 1: people would disagree with. So my question for you is

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Speaker 1: it seems like all of the Trump prosecutions are stalled.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct? And how is this.

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Speaker 1: Possible that this guy who has you know, he's out

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Speaker 1: on bail, he's you know, Judge Cannon.

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Speaker 2: I mean, where are we with all these Trump cases?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So the short answer is yes with two asterisks. But

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Speaker 4: you know, we were fighting the clock and we've lost.

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Speaker 4: You know, there was such a thirst for accountability in

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Speaker 4: the manner in the guise of an actual trial, and

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Speaker 4: apart from New York, which I'll get to in a moment,

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Speaker 4: it hasn't happened. He's been able largely to forestall it.

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Speaker 4: And now we're at a point where if it happens,

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Speaker 4: it'll be after the election. If he wins, the two

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Speaker 4: federal ones go away automatically, and the state ones, I

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Speaker 4: think will in one fashion another be smothered or at

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Speaker 4: least delayed. On the other hand, if he loses, justice

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Speaker 4: will grind on. The two asterisks I wanted to note,

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Speaker 4: Molly are first, he's gonna be sentenced in New York,

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Speaker 4: and people are just wondering will he be after the election,

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Speaker 4: And we'll have a short incarceratory penalty. Maybe after the election,

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Speaker 4: maybe not, but it won't be a short incarceratory penalty.

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Speaker 4: But if you've had friends, and I'm not saying you

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Speaker 4: have who are subject to probation and parole, that's a

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Speaker 4: fairly pronounced deprivation of liberty. And I think that itself

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Speaker 4: gives the court a measure of control over him, so

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Speaker 4: he's in the clutches of the criminal justice system in

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Speaker 4: some ways.

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Speaker 2: In the long run, I mean, he's basically gotten away

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Speaker 2: with it so far.

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Speaker 4: I think that's right. It'll all come down to the

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Speaker 4: reckoning will be after One big exception that's been interesting

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Speaker 4: is everyone wanted the trial in the Jack Smith case.

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Speaker 4: The Supreme Court snatched it away. Then the mini trial,

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Speaker 4: which I just didn't think was feasible, but he came

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Speaker 4: out with a long brief that lays it out in

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Speaker 4: chapter and verse. So to the extent people wanted it

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Speaker 4: exposed to the American people as it was in January sixth,

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Speaker 4: it's done that, and there's a lot of bombshells, but

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Speaker 4: it really goes back to you political because it looks

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Speaker 4: to me like it hasn't had quite a seismic effect,

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Speaker 4: and it's not, you know, the big October surprise people

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Speaker 4: might might have wanted, notwithstanding that we have it all

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Speaker 4: laid out. But somehow even all these extra details you

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Speaker 4: would know better, but seem kind of baked into the

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Speaker 4: politics of things.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of got a perfunctory news coverage,

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Speaker 1: but largely just didn't capture the imagination of the public

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Speaker 1: at all.

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Speaker 4: It seems to me that's right. I mean, when he

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Speaker 4: was convicted in New York, the polls kind of went

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Speaker 4: down for him, and there are this is going to

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Speaker 4: give rise to some other details. I just had a

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Speaker 4: long YouTube with Marcy Wheeler. There's more stuff to mine there.

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Speaker 4: But it just it hasn't been the huge thing that

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Speaker 4: people were asking for.

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Speaker 2: So does this mean the law has not.

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Speaker 4: Just means they haven't done the job that people wanted

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Speaker 4: them to do, but it's really not the law's job

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Speaker 4: to do by this certain point, by the election. It

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Speaker 4: means it's up to the people to decide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But I mean I understand that.

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Speaker 1: But don't you think that ultimately, if you do a

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Speaker 1: lot of crimes when you're president, that the law should

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Speaker 1: hold you accountable. Yes, naked, so you can run for

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Speaker 1: a president again, hot take.

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Speaker 4: The Constitution says so as well, especially if it's a

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Speaker 4: certain kind of crime like swearing an oath to the

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Speaker 4: United States and then mounting an insurrection. We're in a

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Speaker 4: very funky spot. That's a much longer conversation. And look

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Speaker 4: to the US Supreme Court, which just started its term yesterday,

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Speaker 4: But yes I do. On the other hand, if he loses,

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Speaker 4: he is by no means out of the woods, right.

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Speaker 2: Only if he loses. If he wins.

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Speaker 4: If he wins, all that's left I think is some

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Speaker 4: of the state stuff and you know New York, which

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Speaker 4: has already happened, and I think the Supreme Court would

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Speaker 4: put that on hold. If he wins. His big roll

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Speaker 4: of the dice has succeeded if he wins, and people,

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Speaker 4: of course will decide what president they want without the

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Speaker 4: nawledg of you know, whether he's convicted on multiple cases.

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Speaker 4: All right. Kama Harris has been fielding all these criticisms,

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Speaker 4: but mainly from elite commentariats, guys like us and the

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Speaker 4: right wing, which it seems to me, is flailing to

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Speaker 4: try to get at her that she's got to be

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Speaker 4: more open to the media and she's now begun to

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Speaker 4: do it. She's going to do another sixty minutes. But

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Speaker 4: is that right? We're down to three weeks. Does it

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Speaker 4: really matter that she exposed herself to unscripted interviews and

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Speaker 4: possibly make a gaff or should she just like forget

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Speaker 4: this and pedal to the metal and what she's doing

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Speaker 4: with rally after rally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she should just do rallies and call

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Speaker 1: her Daddy and the haunt ones and whatever else she

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Speaker 1: wants to do and ignore. I mean, this is interesting

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Speaker 1: in the fact that it shows that the mainstream media

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Speaker 1: no longer matters. There are people who are fancy pundans

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Speaker 1: who care about her doing sixty minutes, but she doesn't

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Speaker 1: need to do sixty minutes. Like in fact, there was

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Speaker 1: some statistic that if you read the newspaper, you're like

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Speaker 1: significantly more likely to vote for Harris, right, if.

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Speaker 2: You can even read right.

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Speaker 1: So obviously this is the thing about like false equivalencies.

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Speaker 1: She cannot make people not push her for comments, right,

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Speaker 1: She cannot make people push her for policy. Trump's policy

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Speaker 1: is childcare is childcare, and he's going to fix the

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Speaker 1: price of housing by deporting millions and millions of people

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Speaker 1: wait till he has to build camps to concentrate them in.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a like completely on an even

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Speaker 1: sense in which these two people are being compared. And

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Speaker 1: what Harris should do, I think is just ignore it.

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Speaker 1: Do whatever the fuck she wants be out there, like

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Speaker 1: doing realies, doing talks, doing whatever. But you know, she

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Speaker 1: doesn't like those interviews where they press her and who cares?

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Speaker 1: And by the way, like, I think that what is

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Speaker 1: irritating the mainstream media is they think it's about her hiding,

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Speaker 1: but I think the reality is it's about the diminished

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Speaker 1: state of the mainstream media. Like, editorial endorsements don't move

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Speaker 1: the needle anymore, editorial board endorsements don't change people's minds.

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Speaker 2: Sitting for a.

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Speaker 1: Long interview with the journalists for the New York Times

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Speaker 1: might be great for you or me, but it's not

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Speaker 1: going to do anything for her.

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Speaker 4: And the question is always what vote is she going

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Speaker 4: to get? That she wouldn't have any way by doing

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Speaker 4: sixteen minutes right.

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Speaker 1: Right and the call her daddy vote. Those are women

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Speaker 1: that she really needs to win a lot of independence,

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Speaker 1: a lot of Republicans, and they need to care about

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Speaker 1: their reproductive health care. I think that's very smart. I

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Speaker 1: think that was really a hole in one. I think

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Speaker 1: Walls should go on Joe Rogan one hundred percent. Put

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Speaker 1: Walls on Joe Rogan. Do it because he Walls is

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Speaker 1: a great candidate. Put him on Joe Rogan. That's my take.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw him just a couple of days ago,

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Speaker 4: he's really winning. Okay, your turn.

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Speaker 1: I just read some reporting today that the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: that Roberts, who loves to like say bullshit, was upset

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Speaker 1: by the pushback he got on the Trump is immune

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Speaker 1: forever and ever and he is a god king. Make

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Speaker 1: it make sense and also tell me what you think

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Speaker 1: might happen here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Roberts, So first, you know he's wanted to be

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Speaker 4: mister statesman. But the big story I would say last year,

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Speaker 4: Mollie is it was latent all the time, which is

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Speaker 4: when the chips are down, and by that I mean

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Speaker 4: for the Republican Party. No, mister statesman. Really, he's in

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Speaker 4: lockstep now. He wrote, you know, he's within the cocoon

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Speaker 4: of the Supreme Court, and he wrote an opinion that

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Speaker 4: he actually saw as being somewhat tempered. Had to go

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Speaker 4: a little bit right to get Alito in talk and

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Speaker 4: maybe Gorse it's not to right separately, but you know,

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Speaker 4: we had this really remarkable I know it doesn't seem

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Speaker 4: so astonishing if you haven't been in the court, but

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Speaker 4: having corked there, the leak of that memo where he

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Speaker 4: just is scathing towards the DC Circuit is you know,

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Speaker 4: the whole thing with immunity, and that immunity opinion. You know,

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Speaker 4: they're just living in a different world. It's not just

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Speaker 4: judges everywhere, but academics and people who think something is

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Speaker 4: deeply wrong about this. So what is going to happen?

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Speaker 4: The first question actually is will Trump succeed in making

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Speaker 4: it go up and down, up and down, up and down,

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Speaker 4: because the goal of Chuckin and Smith is not But

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Speaker 4: even that one up and down trip that's left, that

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Speaker 4: means Smith is already accepted that no trials'll say twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty six, And I personally think that Chuckin she's likely

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Speaker 4: to be where Smith is, and I would have zero

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Speaker 4: surprise if the court again smacks her down on what

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Speaker 4: she says about the immunity, which is now going to

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Speaker 4: be sort of sentenced by sentence on the indictment. So

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Speaker 4: I did say, you know, eight minutes ago that he's

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Speaker 4: not out of the woods yet. But it's a very

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Speaker 4: long path, and you know there's going to be national

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Speaker 4: fatigue and everything else over this most important and righteous prosecution.

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Speaker 4: But I think the Supreme Court isn't done putting its

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Speaker 4: stamp on. Okay to you, JD Vance and one of

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Speaker 4: your recent podcasts, you noted how he in some way

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Speaker 4: is Trump isn't without Trump. So what do you mean

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Speaker 4: by that and what do you see as let's say

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Speaker 4: Trump loses for this question just because it's a more

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Speaker 4: interesting way to put it.

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Speaker 2: Who is JD.

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Speaker 4: Vance? And what is the Republican Party post Trump?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So I would say two things.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people watch that debate and thought what

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Speaker 1: I thought, which was this eye is good at making

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Speaker 1: Trumpism without Trump work, and the way he's able to

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Speaker 1: do it is by lying. One of the things about

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Speaker 1: trump Ism without Trump is that Trump he lies. He

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Speaker 1: leaves open the possibility that he will not have a

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Speaker 1: national abortion ban. Of course he's gonna have a national

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Speaker 1: abortion ban. He leaves open the door to things that

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Speaker 1: otherwise would be so unpalatable that people wouldn't vote for them.

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Speaker 1: Jadevans takes a step further and he just lies. So

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Speaker 1: for example, there was this exchange about Obamacare. Right, Trump

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Speaker 1: wanted to end Obamacare, but the way jd. Van spun it,

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Speaker 1: he was like, he wanted to fix the exchanges.

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Speaker 2: They were too expensive. We were trying to cost cut.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they were trying to cost cut yeah, but

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Speaker 1: they were trying to cut cut and it struck me that,

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Speaker 1: like one of Trump's things that he doesn't do because

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Speaker 1: he's not organized and because he's so erratic, is that

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Speaker 1: he gets so wrapped up in his craziness that he's

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Speaker 1: not focused. And a really focused politician who didn't have

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Speaker 1: the same kind of distractions. It strikes me that perhaps

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Speaker 1: it's emotionality that's bubbling below the circumpus, who knows, or

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Speaker 1: maybe it's some larger issue with cognitive decline. Someone like

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Speaker 1: that would be able to sell trump Ism in a

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Speaker 1: way where you wouldn't even know you were buying it.

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Speaker 1: Part of the problem with DeSantis is when Desanta's got there

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Speaker 1: up there and tried to sell trump Ism, none of

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Speaker 1: that's very popular, right. People don't like the idea of

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Speaker 1: losing Social Security. They paid into it, they feel it's theirs,

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Speaker 1: they feel they are entitled to it as well they are.

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Speaker 1: But like when someone like jade Van says like we're

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Speaker 1: going to take away you know, he doesn't quite say

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Speaker 1: it like that, but he tries to leave the door

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Speaker 1: open the way Trump does. It doesn't work because he's

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Speaker 1: not a charismatic guy. But what Vance did where he

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Speaker 1: just lied about it. I thought, this is the way

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Speaker 1: they're going to if they can do it, this is

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Speaker 1: the way they're going to do it. I could see

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Speaker 1: that as a future of Trump is I also think

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Speaker 1: that if Trump gets elected now, I don't think he

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Speaker 1: did so much actual running of the place four years ago.

437
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to imagine that, older, less interested,

438
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: he's going to be doing more. So that makes me

439
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: wonder how much of it will fall to Vance. And

440
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 1: I think Vance is much more organized than Trump, and

441
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: so ultimately he could get a lot more done. Also,

442
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: you have Project twenty twenty five of all the GOP

443
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: think tanks are ready to go the minute he wins.

444
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 4: If he wins, last question this round to Molly Jong

445
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 4: fast and I will make my answer short to please

446
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 4: your great producer.

447
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: Is there any chance the document's case is the most

448
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: open and chuckcase. It is the case that has been

449
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 1: dismissed for seemingly no reason.

450
00:24:58,400 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 4: A lotless reasons, poor reasons.

451
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 2: Is there any world in which that keeps going? I mean,

452
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: what happens there?

453
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 4: Yeah? So I think there is. As you say, it

454
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 4: is the most open and shut It's conic when he

455
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 4: isn't president that anything remotely like that would have been prosecuted.

456
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 4: Cannon's in the tank. She's done all the work she

457
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 4: sort of can for him, So we pause it. If

458
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 4: he wins again federal case, he just orders DOJ to

459
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 4: stand down. If he loses, I think the Eleventh Circuit

460
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 4: in a matter of months will reverse that. The DOJ

461
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 4: I thought was, we're kind of weenies in not moving

462
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 4: to recuse her. But I think there's only so much

463
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 4: she can do. Yeah, my betting odds would be I

464
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 4: would bet that if he loses, that one will proceed.

465
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 4: We'll go to conviction and will be a fairly substantial

466
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 4: term of imprisonment for the former president of the United States.

467
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: Pure false. Affluent white men can get away with anything.

468
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 4: False, but more a lot more but false. And I'll

469
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 4: say one more thing because I'm I'm a former fat

470
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 4: and prosecutor. People who are charged mainly have done it,

471
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 4: and yet good lawyering helps, and I'm not saying it doesn't.

472
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 4: But get away with anything, nag I won't go that far.

473
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: But he's gotten away with this so far.

474
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 4: Yes he has.

475
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: Thanks Harry, always a pleasure.

476
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five and how

477
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: awful Trump's second term could be. Well, so are we,

478
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: which is why we teamed up with iHeart to make

479
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: a limited series with the experts on what a disaster

480
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five would be for America's future. Right now,

481
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: we have just released the final episode of this five

482
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: episode series. They're all available by looking up Molly John

483
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: Fast Project twenty twenty five on YouTube, and if you

484
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: are more of a podcast person and not say a YouTuber,

485
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: you can hit play and put your phone in the

486
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: lock screen and it will play back just like a podcast.

487
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: All five episodes are online now. We need to educate

488
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: a Maria Keons on what Trump's second term would or

489
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: could do to this country, So please watch it and

490
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: spread the word. Jeff Jarvis is the director of the

491
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: tow Night Center of Entrepreneurial Journalism and the author of

492
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: the Web we Weave Why we Must Reclaim the Internet

493
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: from moguls, misanthropes, and moral panic. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Jeff Jarvis,

494
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: Too Fast Politics.

495
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 5: Thank you. So you know it's reflexed to say, oh,

496
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 5: thanks for having me, but I really mean it. I

497
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 5: am a disciple of yours. I hang on your every word.

498
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 5: I'm grateful when I see you on TV and grateful

499
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 5: to MSNBC for making you a contributor. So really thank

500
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 5: you for having me. I've been hoping for this conversation.

501
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: Well, I'm I'm such a fan of yours because you

502
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: were very much the pundits pundit.

503
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 5: Oh well shucks.

504
00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: And you also do a.

505
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 1: Thing that many of us don't do as much as

506
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: probably we should, which is you hold people to account,

507
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,239
Speaker 1: which you know, the whole system of being in the

508
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: media is that we're all you know, we're doing this job,

509
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: but there's a feeling like maybe we're buddy buddy, and

510
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: maybe we shouldn't say, you know, we shouldn't do media

511
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: on media violands. You're here to talk about the state

512
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: of the mainstream media, and hopefully you will come back

513
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: many more times and do that. But you are also

514
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: here because you have a new book out, and talk

515
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: to me about this book.

516
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 5: We can get rid of that pretty quickly. So it's

517
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 5: a book about defending the freedoms of the Internet called

518
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 5: The Web We Weave. And this is the first interview

519
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 5: I've done about the book. So we'll make it quick

520
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 5: because then we want to dish on media, but it's

521
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 5: basically a critique of media's moral panic about the Internet.

522
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 5: And my fear is the more that media treat the

523
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 5: Internet as the enemy, the worse the policy will be

524
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 5: about it. The same thing happened with novels and Nickelodeon's.

525
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: Yes, printing press everything.

526
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 5: I have another book out called the Gutenberg Parenthesis about

527
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 5: the printing press, and I delve deeply into that. So

528
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 5: this is an effort to say I defend the Internet,

529
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 5: not the companies, but the Internet because somebody has to.

530
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 5: And the only area where you and I have disagreed

531
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 5: on the socials over time.

532
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: That's right, and you actually know a lot more about

533
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: it than I do, so I'd love for you to

534
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: talk about it because it's a topic that is very

535
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: misunderstood section two thirty.

536
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 5: So you have said over time and you're among many

537
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 5: who say something must be done and how can the

538
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 5: companies get away with this? And then I respond to

539
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 5: you and saying we need to have this conversation because

540
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 5: Section two thirty is kind of a first Amendment for

541
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 5: the Internet in that it enables freedom of expression. That

542
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 5: you might say, oh, well, that's what the problem, but

543
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 5: there's a whole bunch of awful expression. But it's also

544
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 5: a case that the Internet has enabled communities who were

545
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 5: always there but for too long not heard in big,

546
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 5: old mass media run by people who look like me.

547
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 5: Old white men now have their spot light and their

548
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 5: microphone and their ability to be heard. And my fear

549
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 5: is that if we hold platforms accountable and suable for

550
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 5: everything that's said there, they will use that as an

551
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 5: excuse to get rid of much speech, especially those who

552
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 5: are not otherwise heard.

553
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: Right.

554
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: And that's a really good point. I come from nineties magazines,

555
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: so I remember when you wanted to write a piece

556
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: in Vogue, you had to get it through five editors

557
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: and then Anna Winter, and it was like really a production,

558
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: and sometimes people would change their minds about what they wanted,

559
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: and so you really there was just such a barrier

560
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: to entry. And now if you have a good idea,

561
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: even if it's not fully developed, you can share it

562
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: with you know, hundreds of thousands, maybe as many as

563
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: a million people.

564
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 5: Right, and we can hear voices and communities that otherwise

565
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 5: are not heart Black Twitter is an amazing and wonderful thing.

566
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 5: I don't know if you saw this as you're traveling

567
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 5: from one weird city to the next. But right before

568
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,719
Speaker 5: we went on the air, Taylor Lorenz announced that she's

569
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 5: leaving the Washington Post and starting her own substock. So

570
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 5: now she can say what she wants to say without

571
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 5: that kind of gauntlet she would have to go through

572
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 5: and had to go through in the New York Times

573
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 5: of the Washington Post. And I can't wait to see

574
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 5: her unchained.

575
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's still a lot to recommend a

576
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: lot of these places, especially because they find well, we're

577
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: on the opinion side, so it's much easier, you.

578
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: Know, to write stuff we don't have to.

579
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: But you know that there are a lot of journalists

580
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: who are these Like one of my best friends is

581
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: a reporter for the New York Times, and she writes

582
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: these stories that take months and months to report out

583
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: and need endless fact checking and legal and it's just

584
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: a very intense process.

585
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 5: And I respect that I started young, but I've been

586
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 5: in the field for fifty years. I have some regrets

587
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 5: now about how I've spent my life in mainstreams, so

588
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,959
Speaker 5: called mainstream air quotes, mass media. I'm disappointed, in disillusioned,

589
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 5: especially these days with the institutions like the New York

590
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 5: Times and the Washington Post and CNN, and the right

591
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 5: has always gone after instream media, fake news, Lougan Press,

592
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 5: a awful, awful right. One could track it back to

593
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 5: the Iraq War and so on, but really, in the

594
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 5: last I think two years or so, the disappointment and

595
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 5: anger on the left about the New York Times, Washington

596
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 5: Post at all is loud and palpable, and I think

597
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 5: that there are things going wrong at those institutions that

598
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 5: they're not listening to this criticism. They're getting all the

599
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 5: more defensive about it. I was on a podcast this

600
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 5: morning and recording one with someone from big Old Media

601
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 5: who just was constantly defensive about big media, and they're

602
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 5: not understanding. I think that there are huge issues there.

603
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 5: What do you see in the reaction to big old media.

604
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good point.

605
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: It's something that I think a lot about because, you know,

606
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: especially now that we're on this tour, people ask we

607
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: do questions at the end, and people have complaints about

608
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: mainstream media questions about it.

609
00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: You see.

610
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: I feel that the opinion side, and this is as

611
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: someone who is on the opinion side, is such a

612
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: small smattering of content, and while it can be you know,

613
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: for example, there are certainly opinion columnists whose beliefs I

614
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: do not share. I think a lot of the reporting

615
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: is super important, and I think that some of that stuff,

616
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: I mean, Pro Publica does it, The New York Times

617
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: does it, the Washington Post does it, but not a

618
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: ton of places do it, and that's because it's super expensive.

619
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: And I think that is important enough. And we haven't

620
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: seen substacks really be able to kind of do that yet.

621
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: Now maybe there's a time when they'll be able to

622
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: do it. But you know, if we don't have the reporting,

623
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: it's hard to write those opinion pieces if we especially

624
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 1: with an administration like if Trump comes back into power,

625
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: like there were so many stories we would absolutely not

626
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: have known about it were it not for reporting, Like

627
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about all the Scott prud stuff or the

628
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: Ryan Zink stuff. So much corruption, and even with these

629
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: court cases, with the Trump court cases, you need someone

630
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: in there to like look at the filings and to

631
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: know how to make sense of them. And even like

632
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: I think of Jason Leopold, who does these amazing Foier requests.

633
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,919
Speaker 2: It's hours and hours and.

634
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: Hours of work with very little content produced, sometimes for

635
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: months and months and months. So I think that stuff

636
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: is so important that people should just hold their nose

637
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: when they don't like the opinion stuff. I also think

638
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: the mainstream media has not met the moment. I think

639
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: everyone who is that they the conventional framing highly problematic,

640
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: does not tell the story, elevates the autocrat, creates a

641
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: false equivalency. I truly believe that, and I think a

642
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: lot of smart people do too. It's hard because there's

643
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: not really a handbook for covering the rise of autocracy

644
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: in a free press.

645
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 5: But there is, and it's Hannah Arrant.

646
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Okay, let's talk about that.

647
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 5: I've been rereading Hannah Iran. I even reread William Shier's

648
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 5: Rise and Fall of the Third Break, which might be

649
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 5: you want to commit me because I'm wacky, but it's not.

650
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 5: It's because I want to understand the parallels. And I

651
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 5: have another book out called The Gutenberg Parenthesis, and in

652
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 5: there I quote Errant at some length where she explains

653
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 5: the beginnings of totalitarianism in a way that I think

654
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 5: puts a different challenge on journalism. It's this, it's a

655
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 5: challenge of belonging because what Arod says is that is

656
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 5: that the totalitarians and authoritarians separate people from their communities

657
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 5: so that they are lonely. And I don't mean lonely

658
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 5: in the trivial way of the surgeon General and in

659
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 5: sell people and not getting dates. I mean a profound

660
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 5: loneliness in being alienated from society, and then they are

661
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 5: vulnerable to the siren call of the cultist, the fascist,

662
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 5: the authoritarian. So the problem becomes that we don't have

663
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 5: a pluralistic society where some of these people have that

664
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 5: other pull on them, and Arrant I think shows us

665
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 5: what happens. So the most recent example of this is

666
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 5: the Springfield Dogs and Cats story where Jamel Bowie did

667
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 5: a great TikTok videos. TikTok videos are spectacular, folks, if

668
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 5: you were subscribed, and he explained that as blood libel,

669
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 5: as trying to stir race hate. Now we can see

670
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 5: that and it's obvious, but in the coverage of it,

671
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 5: we don't see that. We see, well, it was proven

672
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 5: to be false. Bart Walls Retjournal. Okay, it's not about facts,

673
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 5: because I also believe that when people say this crazy stuff,

674
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 5: it's not about their belief it's about signaling, and it's

675
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 5: about a loyalty test to their god Trump, And so

676
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 5: what does a journalism look like that's not about facts

677
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 5: and fact checking and information. I mean, all that's fine

678
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,720
Speaker 5: and we need that. But the deeper struggle in society

679
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 5: right now, I think is about belonging and about education

680
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 5: and about people's ability to think critically. And I'm not

681
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 5: sure where a new journalism fits in there.

682
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's right.

683
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: I think that it's still very hard to kind of

684
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: get our heads around it.

685
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: That would be my take on this.

686
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 1: And I also think that we are in a moment

687
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: where mainstream.

688
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 2: Media is really I don't know.

689
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: I don't want to defend the mainstream media because I

690
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 1: think that what you're doing is useful, and I think

691
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 1: that there's way too much like we're all buddies here

692
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, which I don't think is helpful. So

693
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: I appreciate what you're doing, but I do think it's

694
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: just a very tough moment an American life for a

695
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: lot of us. And look, if Trump wins, the mainstream

696
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: media will be off the hook because we'll all be

697
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:33,720
Speaker 1: in jail.

698
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, not to put too fine a point, on.

699
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 5: It, but I think that's true, or.

700
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 2: Losing our cable licenses or whatever.

701
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 5: We become scum and not heard from. I haven't been

702
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 5: on MSBCT for about four years. Joe Scarborough can drive

703
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 5: me nuts every other day, but he's out there calling

704
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 5: fascism fascism. Nicole Wallace, I think is the greatest, and

705
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 5: she's a former Republican who's calling fascism fascism and racism

706
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 5: racism and they're considered opinion, whereas our mainstream reported media

707
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 5: aren't doing it. They won't call lies, lies, racism, racism, misogyny, misogyny,

708
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 5: and fascism fascism, and I think that means that they

709
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 5: ultimately lie to the public when they try to treat

710
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 5: everything asymmetrically with their white glove euphemisms.

711
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 1: For all this, I don't know that it's an intentional lie,

712
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: as much as it's trouble addressing it. I think again,

713
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: the answer there is ref working right, because the right

714
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: is always saying, you know, this is unfair to us.

715
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: You're making false equivalencies, and they're very good at it,

716
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: and they're very good at being furious. I think that

717
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: mainstream media is a little bit terrified, but there's also

718
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: like a corporate structure for a lot of this media,

719
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: so if the right push is hard enough, they can

720
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: kind of unravel the whole thing by boycotting or saying,

721
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: you know, someone's gone too far. It's ironic because then

722
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: on their side, if one of them goes too far,

723
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: they instead are like, you know, unapologetic, and if anything,

724
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: they double down.

725
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 5: What frightens me is I think the one out that

726
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 5: we do have these days is MSNBC. It's on constantly.

727
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 5: That's how I see you all the time. I don't

728
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 5: think that's because Comcast is an enlightened company. I think

729
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 5: it was because that was the market opportunity. It is.

730
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,479
Speaker 5: As someone inside the company once said to me, Jeff,

731
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 5: remember it's a Republican company. So I fear that with pressure,

732
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 5: even that outlet for us could disappear.

733
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: I mean, the good news I would say is that

734
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: the way it works with all of these now, especially

735
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: where there is such a lower bar to entry, is

736
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: that ultimately, if there's appetite, the thing will exist. Yes,

737
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: And if you look at for example, one of the

738
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: big problems right now is that the cable has been

739
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: too slow to go to streaming, so you have all

740
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: these people in this country who are under the age

741
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: of forty five who do not have cable boxes because

742
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: that's not how they watch TV. But they want to

743
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: watch news and they can't right because they don't you know,

744
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: they either have.

745
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: To stream MSNBC. It's not organic.

746
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: And I think there's a place for an organic streamer

747
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: where you turn on your Apple TV and there's news going.

748
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 1: And I think that that's going to happen pretty soon.

749
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: As my guess, if there's appetite, it is the capitalist

750
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 1: system still, and I think there is appetite for liberal

751
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: news now.

752
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: The thing that I worry about.

753
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: Is someone who comes from magazines, is magazines were too

754
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: slow to get online and so they ended up really

755
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: sort of playing themselves. So my anxiety is more like,

756
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: can news get online in the way it needs too

757
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: fast enough to capture audiences.

758
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 5: So not to overplug myself. But I have a third

759
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 5: book out right now called Magazine. It's a short little book.

760
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 5: I started the magazine Entertainment Weekly. I worked for people

761
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 5: at Time Inc.

762
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 2: I love magazines, really Time Magazine. Yeah, but I think.

763
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 5: That magazines are coming to their end. They're at the

764
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 5: end of their arc because of what you just said.

765
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 5: They didn't understand how to update themselves for a community

766
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 5: and conversational based media rather than a content based media.

767
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 5: They still insisted that we have to make this thing

768
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 5: that makes us special, when in fact, what magazines should

769
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 5: have seen was that they were maypoles that people gathered

770
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 5: around of common interest and taste. And they lost the

771
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 5: opportunity and they wasted millions and millions of dollars to

772
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 5: try to figure out the Internet and never did. It's

773
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 5: a tragedy.

774
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: As someone who loves magazines comes from magazines, there was

775
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: a great opportunity.

776
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I think some magazines have survived Vanity Fair.

777
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: It's much smaller than it was, you know, Vanny Fairs

778
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: where I work, and I love them, and I'm very

779
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: happy there, a New Yorker and a couple of different places.

780
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: But I do think ultimately they had the market share

781
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: and they gave it away.

782
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think they misinterpreted what their role in

783
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 5: society was. As I went back to the history of magazines, Welly,

784
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 5: it fascinated me that in eighteen fifty when Harper's Magazine started,

785
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 5: it started in a time of the industrialization and mechanization

786
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 5: of print Before that, the average circulation of a daily

787
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 5: newspaper in the US was four thousand. It was a

788
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 5: good substack newsletter, right, So long comes this avalanche of

789
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 5: new content and new speech, and Harper's came along, and

790
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 5: their mission at the beginning was curatorial. There's so much

791
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 5: good stuff out there. Somebody has to find the good stuff.

792
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 5: That's why we're here. And that's what it did before

793
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 5: it eventually developed its own voice. And so I wonder

794
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 5: where is the Harper's of eighteen fifty four today? Where

795
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 5: is that role that magazines used to play to say,

796
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 5: we're going to find the good and interesting and authoritative

797
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 5: voices and experience not just the writers we assigned, but

798
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 5: the people who were already out there on YouTube, on substack,

799
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 5: on the socials. I think there's a huge opportunity to

800
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 5: rethink a magazine's role in society around the speech that

801
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 5: now exists.

802
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, I think that was the secret

803
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: of Drudge too, was able to put together, was able

804
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: to find everything in a way, and that was really

805
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: the secret of Twitter now whatever it is. The thing

806
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: that really haunts me, if you want to go down

807
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: this wrap, is we are this enormous country right. Three

808
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: hundred plus three hundred and thirty million people in this country,

809
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 1: and very small amount of us read the news, So

810
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: where are people getting their news? Where are they getting

811
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 1: their information?

812
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 5: So that I think is a failure of our old

813
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 5: mainstream media. And I started newspaper sites for Advance, the

814
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 5: same company as Vanity Fair, and my boss, Steve Neuhaus

815
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 5: is now the chairman of the company, was brilliant about

816
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 5: understanding that the Internet was fundamentally about conversation. But it

817
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 5: was really hard to take what was seen as the

818
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 5: content of magazines and bring it to online. Almost every

819
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 5: magazine company out there thought we ought to have TV shows,

820
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 5: we ought to have a website, rather than understanding that

821
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 5: they should, I think loose their people onto TikTok as

822
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 5: long as it exists, and Twitter I'll not call it

823
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 5: X and other places to build relationships with this public

824
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 5: in new ways. That's anathetical to how they think, but

825
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 5: I think that's what's going to if anything can and

826
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 5: rescue them. It's about letting the Taylor Lorenzs of the

827
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 5: world Louis within the Washington Post, rather than putting handcuffs

828
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 5: orders such that she can't do what she did wants

829
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 5: to do and has to leave right.

830
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 2: No, you have to be.

831
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: I mean that is one of the nice things about

832
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: being a vany fairs that I don't have the same

833
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: kind of right.

834
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: They want your voice right, and I just.

835
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 1: Don't have the same kind of regulations that they do

836
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: at the Washington Post.

837
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 2: This is so interesting. I hope you will come back.

838
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 5: Oh, I hope you'll have me.

839
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 2: Yes, I absolutely will.

840
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,879
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting and I think it's a really

841
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: important conversation.

842
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 5: Thank you, Willy.

843
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 3: No moment Thicko Jesse Cannon probly judged fast. I kind

844
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: of consider myself the terrible culture reporter sometimes on this podcast.

845
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 3: So to tee up what we're going to do here,

846
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 3: I have to explain to our audience who theo Vona is,

847
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 3: because I imagine some of them are smart enough to

848
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 3: not realize that this is a comedian who got famous

849
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 3: by powering around the Joe Rogan and Tim Dillon world.

850
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 3: But that is like they're sober but seamstoned buddy that

851
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 3: somehow has taken a real liking to interviewing all sides

852
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 3: of politics. He's recently hat on Bernie and Mark Cuban

853
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: in addition to Trump, and today his guest was Teamster's

854
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 3: union president Sean O'Brien. Tell us what you saw here.

855
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 2: Teamsters were in big trouble. They were rescued by a

856
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 2: man called Joe Biden as a reward for that.

857
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: The Democrats are being completely fucked over by the Teamsters

858
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: who are not endorsing Harris and who are largely just

859
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:39,479
Speaker 1: going their own way. Teamster President Sewan O'Brien rips into

860
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: Democrats on THEO Vaughn's podcast, saying that the party fucked

861
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: over his union members and revealing that a recent meeting

862
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: with Chuck Schumer got fucking ugly. I'm going to give

863
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: this guy a hearty fuck. That guy can't wait to

864
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: see what Republicans with their right to work states do

865
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: to union members. Ain't going to be pretty. You guys

866
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: should vote in your own interests. That's it for this

867
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday

868
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: and Saturday to hear the best minds in politics make

869
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: sense of all the chaos. If you enjoyed this podcast,

870
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend or an enemy and

871
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: keep the conversation going