1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, Welcome 5 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt, my name 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: is Knowl. They called me ben le or joined as 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: always with our super producer Paul Mischig controlled decade. Most importantly, 8 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: you argue, you are here and that makes this stuff 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. We're tripping through time 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: a bit today because we are recording the intro to 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: an interview that we conducted a little bit earlier. That's true, 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: it's an interview with Amy Westerveldt, and we'll be introducing 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: her here in a little bit. She makes a podcast 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: called Drilled, and the whole first season of that show 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: covers basically the story of how climate change denial became 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: a thing like the birth of it. Yes. Amy is 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: an award winning host, journalist, and producer of several podcasts 18 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: several different projects, and Drilled is a true crime style 19 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: podcast about the forces that worked to create what we 20 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: call climate change denial in the modern day. And Amy 21 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: was kind enough to have us on a soon to 22 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: be released episode of Drilled where we talk about how 23 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: how to talk about hot button issues without being too 24 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: particularly divisive about it, something that I think we excel 25 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: that here on stuff that you want to know. Tell 26 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: us we're wrong, or let us know we're right, or 27 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: just leave a review on iTunes. We'll accept it. That 28 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: was more saying, come at me, bro, I think we 29 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: do a good job with this. I would agree. For now, 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: let's get into it with Amy westervilt Amy, welcome to 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: the show. Thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, 32 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. We we couldn't be more excited 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: to have you on. You also founded an entire podcast network, 34 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: Is that correct? I did? Yeah? I um, I don't 35 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: know what I was thinking. Yeah. I sort of like 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,119 Speaker 1: I was helping so many different um people make their 37 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: shows that it seemed like a good idea to bring 38 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: it all together. And then somehow, I like that sort 39 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: of led me to say yes to way too many shows. 40 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: And now we're sort of, you know, we're kind of 41 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: finding our our path and sticking with a sort of 42 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: core group of about half a dozen shows that we're 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: working on. At various points during the year, including the 44 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: one that I report in. Yeah. Well yeah, And to 45 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: that end, Drilled is one of the bigger shows on 46 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: your network, and it is UM. It is fascinating and 47 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: and at some times infuriating to listen to UM, not 48 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: because of your hosting or anything like that, just because 49 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: of the content that you're tackling within it. So before 50 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: we get into you know, climate change denial overall, let's 51 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about just climate change in general 52 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: and how it's evolved over the course of you know, 53 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: first studying CEO two levels within ice right, right, right, 54 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: real quickly, let's differentiate we're talking about this off air. Uh. 55 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: This is something I had heard years and years ago 56 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 1: from someone that I hope was attempting to be funny. Uh. 57 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: They said, yes, I believe in climate change because if 58 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: you drive from Miami to Manitoba, the climate changes. And 59 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: I had to stop, full disclosure, this was at a 60 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner and I had to stop and say, that's 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: not the kind of climate change we're talking about. That's 62 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: not what people mean. Instead, we're talking about a a 63 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: global or regional change in climate patterns. Uh. Parents, especially 64 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: from the mid late twentieth century, to the present day 65 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: attributed largely to a specific cause, the increased levels of 66 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: atmospheric carbon dioxide CEO two produced by fossil fuels. Is 67 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: that correct? Correct? I mean, there's it's you know, it's 68 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: also a few other greenhouse gases, but that's the primary 69 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: thing that we're talking about, is the human contributions to 70 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: atmospheric change. So first things first, Then what is the 71 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: number one if if you had to choose one, what 72 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: is the number one fact, statistic, or piece of information 73 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: about climate change that everyone listening to this episode needs 74 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: to know right now? The thing that always kind of 75 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: blows my mind and tends to do the same for 76 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: other people is that, you know, we kind of think 77 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: about this as something that's started with the Industrial Revolution 78 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: and has like continued at a sort of steady pace 79 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: since then. But there's a thing that scientists called the 80 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: Great Acceleration, and really in just the last twenty to 81 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: thirty years, which are also you know, the years during 82 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: which scientists increasingly knew more about the impacts of emission, 83 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: there's been a like a really rapid increase. It's something 84 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: like of all emissions ever ever have been released, just 85 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: in the last three decades UM and so there is 86 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: this real I don't know, this this need I think 87 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: for people to understand that. You know, it's people alive 88 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: today that have been pretty key contributors to the problem. 89 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: But equally, you know, we could act just sort of 90 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: just as radically in the opposite direction in the same 91 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: amount of time. I wanted to ask you about one 92 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: of the earlier there were the earliest good measurements of 93 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: c O two UM that are found within both Let's 94 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: early on it was ice where CEO two was measured. 95 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about something that's called the Keeling 96 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: curve and some of that research that was done in 97 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. What is that. Yeah, So Charles Keeling 98 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: was an atmospheric scientist. He took measurements in UM a 99 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: few different places, mostly the polls, but also Hawaii. He's 100 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: been a lot of time in Hawaii. He took measurements 101 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: of atmospheric c O two and he took them over 102 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: long periods of time, and he was able to sort 103 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: of strip out what was human and what was you know, 104 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: what would have sort of naturally been there from things 105 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: like fires and um volcanoes. For example, in Hawaii, and 106 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: so he plotted this graph to show, Okay, look there's 107 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: this curve upwards where we're seeing an increase in human 108 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: c O two emissions and if we start to if 109 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: we continue to see this, there are things that we 110 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: know it will likely trigger. And honestly, like I mean, 111 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: it goes back to like the late eighteen hundreds in 112 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: terms of when scientists started to figure out what excess 113 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: c O two would do to the atmosphere. So it's 114 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: not like it's not new science. You know. Um Keeling 115 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: was just able to better sort of differentiate natural CO 116 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: two from human c O two and then actually carrying 117 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: on from him, it was Exxon that did the next 118 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: kind of batch of research, and they measured CO two 119 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: in the oceans because there was a thought during the 120 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: sixties and kind of into the seventies that it was 121 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: it's kind of like, oh, it's okay if there's more 122 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: atmospheric carbon, because the oceans act as a carbon sink, 123 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: so there was an interest in understanding, you know, how 124 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: exactly oceans absorb carbon and um where and how they 125 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: release carbon. So that was work that Exxon was undertaking 126 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: in the seventies, mostly around South America. Let's talk a 127 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: little bit about Exxon in the seventies, because this this 128 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: show often on stuff they don't want you to know. 129 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: We apply investigative attempts or critical thinking, two things that 130 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: are portrayed as conspiracy theories or or fringe theories. And 131 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: I think one thing that will startle a lot of 132 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: people is that x On Mobile participated in something that 133 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: could very fairly be called conspiracy for some time, because, 134 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: as you said, they figured out some of this stuff already. Uh, 135 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: some CEO two related science back in the seventies kind 136 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: of spearheaded by a guy named James black Right, the 137 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: ex On Mobile climate scientists. What did they find and 138 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: how did they handle this? Uh? Did they did they 139 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: go transparent with it? Did they secrete it away? What 140 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: did they do with the knowledge they gleaned? So they 141 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: it was it's really interesting, Like there's been there's been 142 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: a few different sort of narratives around this, but from 143 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: I've now spoken with place six different scientists who were 144 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: there at the time, including a guy who was on 145 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: the boat that was taking these ocean measurements and was 146 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: very involved in in that work, And as near as 147 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: I can tell, they you know, they did have quite 148 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: a bit of information about CEO two emissions and how 149 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: they impacted the atmosphere, and they, you know, they made 150 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 1: predictions in the seventies that we're seeing come true today. 151 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: There you know, when we just we just had a 152 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: moment maybe last month where we hit a particular concentration 153 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: of c O two in the atmosphere, and it was 154 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: like bang on what ex on scientists predicted in the seventies, 155 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: so um, and and even like within the exact timeframe 156 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: that they predicted, so um. They were doing a ton 157 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: of climate modeling and they there were several internal reports 158 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: where they're scientists were saying, like, there's going to be 159 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: a point in the next ten years where we have 160 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: to you know, James Black says this in a in 161 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: a memo. He says, in the next five to ten years, 162 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: we are going to have to make some hard decisions 163 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: about energy sources to avoid catastrophic climate change. You know. 164 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: In in like seventy seven, there's letters to President Carter 165 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: about it. Um, you know, and then you just sort 166 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: of start to see a little bit less of the 167 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: research being done, definitely less of it being shared, and 168 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: more research being done into all the other possible drivers 169 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: of climate change. So this is a very This is 170 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: a thing that lots of um companies that don't necessarily 171 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: want their product to be, you know, the focal point 172 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: of a of research. Do the tobacco companies did it? 173 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: Lots of other companies have done it too. They look 174 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: for what are all the other causes and they fund 175 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: science into things like what impact to volcanoes have on 176 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: climate change? What impact do sunspots have on climate change? 177 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: Kinds of things or livestock? Right, yeah, so they continue 178 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: to fund climate science, right, it's very clever, but it's 179 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: all in the service of kind of moving attention away 180 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: from fossil fuels as like the soul or the biggest culprit. 181 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: And they also start to fund a lot of um 182 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: more sort of pie in the sky long range solutions 183 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: technology too. So this is another thing that you'll see 184 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: and you still see it today. Is like a ton 185 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: of funding on things that sound great but are extremely 186 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: theoretical and we'll take at least twenty years to work 187 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: because it just buys that much more time at you know, 188 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: the status quo. The story on Exxon has been kind 189 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: of one of like, oh, they were doing all this 190 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: great stuff and then they turned and it's all greed 191 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: and dada and and personally, I think that it's more 192 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: a question of strategy, Like there was someone in charge 193 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: who initially thought that being part of the research would 194 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: get them a seat at the table and help them, 195 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: you know, have a voice in the sort of crafting 196 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: of a regulatory framework. And then at a certain point 197 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: there was a realization that like, oh, this is really 198 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: going to affect how we do business, and the better 199 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: strategy is just to sort of put that off for 200 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: a while. And you definitely you sort of start to 201 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: see that shift in the late eighties and early nineties. 202 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: So one thing we do know for a fact contributes 203 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: to this climate change is industry and the energy infrastructure. 204 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: And there's a new study that just came out, i think, 205 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: on July one, from Nature and the International Journal of 206 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: Science that says, yeah, so committed emissions from existing energy 207 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: projects planned energy projects on the book could bring us 208 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: to one point five celsius climate target by I can't 209 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: I can't quite tell what the target date would be, 210 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: but it is including all of these things that are 211 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: already planned, that are in progress. So I assume I 212 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: think probably by like twenty us. What they say exactly 213 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: is actually what it has here. Yeah, so even soon. 214 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? What would a one point 215 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: five degrees celsius change in atmospheric conditions actually functionally mean 216 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: for us as human beings living on this planet? You know, 217 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: it's a little bit um. It's scary to me that 218 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: like one point five is quickly you know, it was 219 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: sort of the goal for a long time, and it's 220 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: quickly starting to feel like the floor, Like that's the 221 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: minimum when to see and we'll be lucky if we 222 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: can keep it at too. But um, we will see 223 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: a lot more of these these big storms and big 224 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: fires that we've been seeing, and um, we may see 225 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: that the jury is still out on this a little 226 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: bit um around the melting of the Arctic ice sheet, 227 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 1: if that happens. This is the thing that I think 228 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand about climate change is 229 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: that it's not just like this thing happens, then that 230 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: thing happens. A lot of these things are sort of 231 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: like catastrophe multipliers, you know, So like if the ice 232 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: sheet goes, that's a whole cascade of other things that 233 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: will go. You lose perma frost, which has a lot 234 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: of like ancient viruses trapped in it. For example, So 235 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: like hello anthrax. Um, you you have massive sea level rise, 236 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: which then not only makes certain places uninhabitable, but also 237 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: makes storm surge that much more of a problem. When 238 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: we do get big storms, then you have like you know, 239 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: a massive storm that um drives people out of their homes. 240 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: They're sort of having to find places to live. We're 241 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: already they're already predicting tens of millions of just domestic 242 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: climate migrants within particular countries. The US is one. UM. 243 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: That's another thing I don't think we really hear that 244 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: much about. It's like you think of, Okay, sure there 245 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: will be people that um have to leave like island 246 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: countries and go somewhere else. Well, we're seeing people have 247 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: to leave places within the U S and migrates somewhere else. 248 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: And I think we've seen in recent years how well 249 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: the world is equipped to deal with large scale migration. UM. 250 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's not not great. So UM yeah, I 251 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: mean all of all of those things. And and it's 252 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: really this sort of like cascade of of things of 253 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: like multiple catastrophic events happening either at the same time 254 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: or shortly like shortly after each other, so you just 255 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: don't have that kind of recovery time in between. And 256 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: then the other thing too is um you know, high 257 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: levels of CO two in the atmosphere are not great 258 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: for our brains, UM, so you do start there's some 259 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: research that's coming out around loss of i Q level 260 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: over time and developmental issues over time and things like 261 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: that too. So it's really it's hitting on a lot 262 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: of fronts. And I think that's why, you know, people 263 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: keep talking about the need to um talk about climate 264 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: change as it intersects with all these other kind of 265 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: policies and um kind of governmental concerns, because it is 266 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: it's not sort of this separate thing over here that 267 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: just affects the environment. It's like it's going to impact 268 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: how people live day to day. Yeah, that's an excellent 269 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: point and it's one that should be frightening to a 270 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: lot of our audience members. I do have to say, 271 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: I love how you went through very quickly, very very efficiently, 272 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: some of the concerns that that we had found that aren't, 273 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: as you said, widely discussed in this conversation. You know, 274 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: the named island nations like the Maldives, Vanuatu, and others 275 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: like the Solomon Islands that that have had public statements 276 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: from their governments saying we are literally in danger of 277 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: going under the waves. And with this cascade or this 278 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: aggregate domino effect that we're talking about, from one problem 279 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: leading to a next, I've seen some I've seen some 280 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: pretty pretty shocking scenarios, you know, like just planned out 281 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: or their estimates based on experts guesses of how this 282 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: mass migration, both domestic and internationally could actually drive governments 283 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: away from addressing the problems of climate change as they 284 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: you know, as they foment nationalism or whatever to to 285 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: fight what they see is the other invading How much 286 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: of the substance of those do you think is accurate? 287 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: I understand there's got to be some gu estimating there. 288 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: But are we as a species in a situation where 289 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: this is possible, where this is plausible, or where this 290 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: is at this point in twenty nineteen unavoidable. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, 291 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: this is a thing that I think it's it's scary 292 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: for people, but I think good for people to understand 293 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: is that, um, what I just described is kind of 294 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: a best case scenario. Uh, like that's if we don't 295 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: develop any further fossil fuels. You know, this study that 296 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: just came out today is is like calculating the stuff 297 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: that's already been drilled or is being drilled, or is 298 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: under development. There's a bunch more that's planned. The US 299 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: is increasing production right now. Global emissions are going up, 300 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: so you know, at this time when scientists have said 301 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: we need to have been on a path to zero 302 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: emissions like yesterday, emissions are going up. So we're going 303 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: in the opposite direction. So the idea that there's there's 304 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: much chance that we won't at least hit one point 305 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: five is pretty slim. And the other thing that I 306 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: think is important for people to understand is that it 307 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: can get worse. Like we've talked a lot about one 308 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: point five and then oh, two degrees that's like really bad. 309 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: It could be three or four. So it's not like 310 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: just because we've already kind of committed ourselves to a 311 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: certain amount of warming in the effects of that, that 312 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: we should just say, well it I think it's let's 313 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: burn it all because it can become much worse than that, 314 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: Like that new sort of scenario could last a lot longer. 315 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: What we're looking at now is Okay, if we can 316 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: keep it to one point five, then, yes, we'll have 317 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: more catastrophic events. Yes we'll have migration to deal with, 318 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: but we can start to bring the atmosphere back and 319 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: balance and we can start to um see improvement of 320 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: those things over time too. You know, there are technologies 321 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: that are looking at harvesting CEO two out of the 322 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,719 Speaker 1: atmosphere um and I think there's a lot of like 323 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: optimism around those. I'm not sure how how well that's 324 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: been earned. Right now, the only thing that absorbs you 325 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: to is trees, and we're cutting them down. So there 326 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,239 Speaker 1: is some hope that, like, you know, on top of 327 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: just reducing emissions, we could turn back the clock and 328 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: remove emissions from the atmosphere if we if we can 329 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: get you know, enough money into geo engineering and carbon 330 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: capture and these kinds of things. But um, but we 331 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: have pretty much. You know, there's a generation of folks 332 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: that have committed the world to a certain amount of 333 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: this no matter what. And we'll continue our conversation with 334 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: Amy Westerveld after a brief word from our sponsors, and 335 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: we're back with more from Amy Westerveld. Okay, so let's 336 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: get into the whole, Like, what what is the point, 337 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: like to what end are people denying this stuff when 338 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: you can literally see the effects of it firsthand. I mean, 339 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: I joke all the time about how it's so much 340 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: hotter in Georgia this summer than it was last year, 341 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: as like, but by climate change is obviously a hoax, 342 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: and like I mean, I'm you know, like a little 343 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: flipping about it because it's so galling and depressing that 344 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: people can't wrap their heads around this or choose not to, 345 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: Like is it blissful ignorance? Is it like completely agenda driven? 346 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: Like what what is the impetus behind this continued denial 347 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: of something that is supported by so much science and 348 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: just by common sense opening your damn eyes. Yeah, so 349 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: I think, you know, the good news is that the 350 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: real like hardcore kind of old school it's not happening 351 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: denial has definitely dropped off. I think it's like maybe 352 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: ten to fiftcent of people, which still a lot of people, 353 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: you know, a surprising number, but it's it's fairly low. Um, 354 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: but there is there's sort of like gradations of it 355 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: now where it's like now you have a lot of 356 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: people saying, well, it's happening, but I don't know how 357 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: much humans are contributing to it, and therefore there's not 358 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: anything we can do. Um. So there's that kind of 359 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: flavor of it. There is the you know, well, it's 360 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: happening anyway, so we might as well squeeze profit out 361 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: of it in the meantime kind of you know, take 362 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: on it, and you know, it just depends like some people. 363 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: For some people, I think it's it's kind of part 364 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: of the whole ideology and like tribal identity thing. You know. 365 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: I met a woman recently who has actually signed onto 366 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: a lawsuit against oil companies but still doesn't quote unquote 367 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: believe in human caused climate change. She's kind of like, 368 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: you know, ice ages and you know, volcanoes and whatever. 369 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: But for her, UM, the way that she was sort 370 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: of able to kind of maintain her tribal identity but 371 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: still in effect do something about climate change is that 372 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: she just felt like it was really unfair that the 373 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: oil companies had a bunch of information that they weren't 374 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: sharing with the public, and mostly the thing that got 375 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: her was um that they were doing various things to 376 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: protect their own assets against climate change at the same 377 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: time that they were telling everyone else not to worry 378 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: about it. So she's like, that's just not fair, you know, 379 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: whether it's humans causing it or it's just a natural thing. 380 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: Like they knew that it was happening, and they told 381 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: everyone else not to worry about it, and that's not fair. Um. 382 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: There's other folks, actually, quite a few libertarian think tanks 383 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: are coming around to the idea of climate as a 384 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: public nuisance, or climate change as a public nuisance, or 385 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: like a liability issue with respect to private property rights. 386 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: So this idea that you know, again like some companies 387 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: had information that would impact property value and didn't share it. 388 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: They're like that's not right, you know. Um, So it 389 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: just it kind of depends, and I think, actually, I 390 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: don't know. I think that the environmentalists have done themselves 391 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: something of a disservice and in sort of for a 392 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: long time being really insistent that people have to like 393 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: buy into every single thing in order to like you know, 394 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: be on the same side or like do something about 395 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: it or whatever. And it's like, hey, if like your 396 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: thing is private property rights and that's what like pisces 397 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: you off about emissions going out of control. Great, Like 398 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: that's cool whatever, you know, and like I don't need 399 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: you to believe in all the science or understand it 400 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: or whatever. It's complicated, you know, and like, um, I think, 401 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: I don't know, sort of forcing people to um be 402 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: able to like argue their case on parts per million 403 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: is just silly. So yeah, I mean that's That's kind 404 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: of the one good thing I've seen in the denial 405 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: space is this sort of evolution of of people figuring 406 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: out a way to like remain the same ideologically but 407 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: like still act on climate in some way. I mean, 408 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: that's a positive way to look at it, Amy, So 409 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: thank you for providing that. Um. You know, one of 410 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: the first episodes we ever made of this show, in fact, 411 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: I think it was the first episode was about a 412 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,479 Speaker 1: man named Edward Burnetes, who is a lot of times 413 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: thought to be the father of or at lease he's 414 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: uh he he stayed in a lot of places as 415 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: being the father of public relations. And in Drilled, we 416 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: almost immediately or very early on at least, get introduced 417 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: to someone named E. Bruce Harrison, And can can you 418 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about this because I think 419 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: it speaks to how this he at least lended he 420 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: lended a heavy hand into the way that this became 421 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: such a complicated issue rather than just science that's being reported. Yeah. Yeah, Actually, 422 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: the whole pr complex has had a very integral role 423 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: in all of this. Bruce Harrison was the sort of 424 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: godfather of greenwashing. Um. He was working for American Cyanimide 425 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: when Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring came out and it 426 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: was a sort of condemnation of the chemical industry and 427 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: mostly just this idea that like companies should be able 428 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: to pollute you know, the commons and not take into 429 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: account the impact that that would have on the general public. 430 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: And his boss, the sort of like story goes that 431 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: his boss came in and holding that book, like saying, 432 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: this is pearl harbor for the chemical industry, and he 433 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: got together with some of the folks at du Pont 434 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: and they came up with this whole strategy of and 435 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's brilliant of like, let's get companies 436 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: to sign on to, you know, some number of environmental 437 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: initiatives that they feel comfortable with so that they can 438 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: at least appear to be like good corporate citizens. And 439 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: let's bring them, you know, let's bring the environmental organizations 440 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: to the table, and you know, we can all work 441 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: together towards something. And he's still alive today, and he 442 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: very much feels like he um that this was a 443 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: very positive thing, that like, hey, he got companies to 444 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: talk to environmentalists and agree to do certain things and 445 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, um, but you know, really it was in 446 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: the service of being able to continue to pollute without 447 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: paying for it. There's another guy to that I just 448 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: I've been like digging into for a future season. Who 449 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: was the head of pr at Mobile And he's fascinating 450 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: because he was like the guy that got them to 451 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: fund Masterpiece Theater and all these like documentary shows. At 452 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: one point, he was um funding so much public television 453 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: that he was known as like the guy you had 454 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: to know in the UK if you wanted like your 455 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: British film or TV show to get on American TV. UM. 456 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 1: And he's sort of like, I don't know, he did 457 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: it for so long that he started to sort of 458 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: fancy himself like an actual member of the creative team. 459 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: You know. Like at one point he decides to leave 460 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: Mobile and start his own film production company, and then 461 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, he has no film credits after 462 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: it's like, oh sorry, buddy, it really was the money. 463 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, even that, you know, it was it's very subtle. 464 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: You know. It's like they never did any sort of 465 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: hardcore ads for Mobile in those shows or anything. It 466 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: was just about like affiliating themselves with like, you know, 467 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: high class culture and like being intelligent and you know, 468 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: being a thinking man's company and all these kinds of 469 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: things that just kind of lead the groundwork for like, hey, 470 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: they're not so bad. He was also the guy that 471 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: worked with the New York Times to um invent the 472 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: the op ad, which is like for op ed the 473 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: advertorial that reminds me of the Keep America Beautiful campaign 474 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: with the Native American gentleman with a single tier who 475 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: actually was Italian Italian and the whole thing was funded 476 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: by the can lobby to shift the responsibility from corporations 477 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: onto humans and saying, see, this is an admonishment because 478 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: this is all your fault. You made the Native American 479 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: man cry in his canoe. Um, And it's literally just 480 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: shifting the blame and shifting the focus. Yeah, exactly, totally. 481 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: It's all. Yeah, a lot of the anti littering campaigns 482 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: were funded by basically packaging companies. And this, this is 483 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: another this is another conspiratorial thing that occurs more often 484 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: than people think, right, because an ad is hidden almost 485 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: everywhere you look. Nowadays, we have, though, when we talk 486 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: about the threat of climate change in these cascading effects, 487 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: we do have a couple of examples of, if not corporations, 488 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: at least state institutions that are making some moves to 489 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: mitigate the effects of climate change so much as they can. Right, 490 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: Like we hear we hear a lot about Norway for instance, 491 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: or Germany some other Scandinavian countries as well. Could you 492 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about the kind of moves 493 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: those UH governments are making and whether and how successful, 494 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: if successful, they are going to be. So there are 495 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: heavy um investments in renewable energy in several Scandinavian countries um, 496 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: and I think you know Sweden is on track for 497 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: zero emissions, I think by But there's also I hate 498 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: to be like the person who's just such a downer 499 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: about all of this stuff, but like there is this 500 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: like weird boondoggle thing happening with European emissions commitments where 501 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: they're heavily relying on something called biomass, which I don't 502 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: know if you guys know what this is, but it's 503 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: essentially like burning wooden pellets for energy. And right now, 504 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: what's happening is that you have in many cases, like 505 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: Denmark is a good example, the Netherlands, UM countries basically 506 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: importing these wood pellets from like America and other places 507 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: in the U in the world and um and then 508 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: burning them for energy. And it's like it's considered zero 509 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: emission because the tree eventually regenerates, but it's really it's 510 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: some interesting math um, you know. It's like, well, trees 511 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: don't like immediately grow back. There's a certain amount of 512 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, tree waste from making paper and various other things, 513 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: but it's really not that much. It's certainly not enough 514 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: to fuel these biomass plants. There's no real like accounting 515 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: for the emissions coming out of the burning. And then 516 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: there's also like a sort of um ash that's made 517 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: that they actually haven't figured out what to do with yet. 518 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: A lot of places are just collecting it and like 519 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: putting it in warehouses, and I just I think like 520 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: we need all sorts of solutions all at once, and honestly, 521 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm kind of in favor of like throwing as much 522 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: crap against the wall and seeing what sticks. But like this, 523 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: there are there's like a real opportunity for you know, 524 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: continued kind of problematic human thinking here too. You know, 525 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: like we we are. We have done a fairly bad 526 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: job in many cases of sort of like innovating our 527 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: way out of these um these problems, and there is 528 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: this sort of tendency to be like, oh, we'll just 529 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: come up with a cool technology that deals with it, 530 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: and often UM an issue with really predicting what the 531 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: potential impacts of that solution will be. That said, there 532 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: are things that are happening. There are things like you know, 533 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: painting all the roofs white for example, that UM kind 534 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: of reflects on away. Carbon capture is actually a thing 535 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: that exists, Like the technology exists, it's just very expensive. 536 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: So figuring out how to do that at scale and 537 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: also I mean at scale in terms of the amount 538 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: of carbon, but sort of at a smaller scale in 539 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: terms of the actual physical footprint of carbon capture factories 540 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: in essence is a big thing in a lot of countries, 541 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: and companies are trying to do that UM that is 542 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: like a big potential fix. There's this thing I've heard 543 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: a lot about recently, which is um feeding seaweed two cows, 544 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: which apparently like dramatically reduces their methane emission. Yeah, I 545 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: saw that. It's like, how can we maguiver our way 546 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: out of this without change? I know? And then they're 547 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: good with that one. Like I'm so suspicious of these 548 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: things because I just I've seen it go you know, badly, 549 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: so many times, and I'm like, okay, cool, But I'm like, 550 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: I can just almost guarantee you that in two years 551 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: we're going to be reading articles about like toxic seaweed poop. 552 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: You know that is my favorite thrash metal band. Actually. Yeah, 553 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: So not to sound like too much of a hippie, 554 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: but when it comes to a lot of these discussions, 555 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: I mean, we kind of do need to look at 556 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: ourselves as like citizens of the world, and why can't 557 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: we just all hold hands together and figure this problem 558 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: out together? And there's obviously an effort to do that 559 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: with the Paris Climate Agreements, and you know, with Trump 560 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: kind of wanting to pull the United States out of that, 561 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: how big a deal is that? Is? It just kind 562 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: of like a bad optics kind of thing, or is 563 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: that really a big deal? Like how much difference are 564 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: these accords going to make even if everyone agrees to them? So, 565 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: first of all, none of these accords so like basically 566 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: the fossil fuel lobby completely torpedoed the whole global process 567 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: when they killed Kyoto. That was like the first and 568 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: still so far only one that was supposed to have 569 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: any kind of like actual teeth to it. All of 570 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: the ones since then have really been sort of like 571 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: non binding. Is the term that exactly? It's like, well, 572 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: it's a non binding resolution, so you know, I mean, 573 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: currently none of the signatories of the Paris Accord or 574 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: on track to meet their goals. So I think that 575 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: tells you how effective it is UM. You know, not 576 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: to like cast. I know a lot of people who 577 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: worked really hard to negotiate that UM document, and it 578 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 1: is very very hard to get multiple countries to agree 579 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: to anything, let alone something that will you know, at 580 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: least at first reduce their g d P. So you know, 581 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: I applaud the people who spend that amount of time 582 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,919 Speaker 1: and energy doing it, but I do feel like any 583 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: kind of a global agreement needs to be so much 584 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: more harsh than anything that's been written in the last 585 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: twenty years with actionable consequences. Maybe actionable consequences, Yeah, exactly. 586 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,760 Speaker 1: And I do feel like, you know, the US pulling 587 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: out sort of shows the weakness of these agreements to 588 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: that like, um, one country can kind of like torpedo 589 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: the whole effort. So what do you do in that case? 590 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: Let's pause here for a quick word from our sponsor. 591 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: I sure hope that last sponsor was an exon. We're 592 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: back with more from Amy Westervelt. The other thing too, 593 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: that I wanted to just mentioned is I keep seeing, 594 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: like I spent a bunch of time last week with 595 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: a lot of climate adaptation people who work on things 596 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: like sea walls and you know, like redesigning buildings to 597 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: be more resilient to large storms or fires and things 598 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: like that. And you know, they were talking about all 599 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: of these adaptation measures and also about some of the 600 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: like te like technological advances and things like that, and 601 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: it just totally got me thinking that I almost never 602 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: hear anyone talking about adaptation in the sense of adapting 603 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: to just not developing fossil fuels anymore. You know, like, 604 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: where's the adaptation plan for that. People will talk about 605 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: it in the sense of, oh, we can't just turn 606 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: off the spicket tomorrow, and I'm like, okay, But just 607 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: as a thought exercise, what if we did, like, like, 608 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: what if we did what would that look like? Can 609 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: we like just at least think about that, you know, um, 610 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: because we'd have to get a new kind of uh 611 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: energy that we could burn and we would just call 612 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: it car mass and it would be all of the 613 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: gasoline automobiles that exist and we just burn all those rights, 614 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 1: just a big giant bonfire. Yeah, you're already heading towards 615 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: mad Max territory anyway, we might as well just like 616 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: complete the look for it. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, 617 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: I'm talking and referencing a lot of things that occurred 618 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: in season one of Drilled. You've you've already had a 619 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: second season or you in the second season right now, 620 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: we've had a second season. We um the first season 621 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: is sort of a little bit of like the origin 622 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: story of climate change denial and you know, what what 623 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: different companies were doing, but also sort of what was 624 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: happening in the country at that time politically, economically, all 625 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: of that stuff, like what you know all the factors 626 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: that sort of came into play, and the second season, 627 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: we um followed a group of crab fisherman who became 628 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 1: the first industry to sue the fossil fuel industry over 629 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: climate change. I kind of wanted to just tell like 630 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 1: a a much smaller story in the second season of like, Okay, 631 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: here's an industry that's been impacted, and um, most of 632 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: them are quite conservative politically, so it's pretty interesting that 633 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: they have been kind of pushed to this point where 634 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: they're they're just sort of like, this was just really unfair. 635 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: You know, we have one of the world's most sustainable 636 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: fisheries and because of warming waters and the various things 637 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: that that has done to the marine food web and 638 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: algae and all these things, like they're being put out 639 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: of business and I want to get that. And you 640 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: made a really great point there about these these fishermen, 641 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: scrab fisherman, who you know, tended to be conservative politically, 642 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: And it gets back to season one where you really 643 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: make it a point that this was not at all 644 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: a uh. You know, we live in a two party system. 645 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: We exist in the two party system. This was not 646 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: one side or the other. As the science was being 647 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,280 Speaker 1: developed early on. UH, nobody, nobody controlled the messaging about 648 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: it in that way. It was you know, if you 649 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: voted Democratic, it didn't mean you were for or against 650 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: climate change and or Republican. And you play a clip 651 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: from when George H. W. Bush was on the campaign trail, 652 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: and he has a quote, and I wonder would it 653 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: be all right if we played the quote you used 654 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: on our episode Right now, We're just gonna play a 655 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: clip really fast of that. Some say these problems are 656 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: too big, that it seemed possible for an individual or 657 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: even a nation as great as ours to solve the 658 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: problem of global warming or the loss of forests or 659 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: the deterioration of our oceans. My response is simple, it 660 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 1: can be done, and we must do it. Let's not 661 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: forget all that we've accomplished, all that we've accomplished since 662 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 1: America first concentrated its attention on preserving the environment under 663 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: a Republican administration back in nineteen seventy. I think it's 664 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: important for everyone listening to this. UH, if you are 665 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: still listening to this, and you perhaps still believe or 666 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: do not believe that climate change is something that is 667 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: scientifically proven, in something that we do need to think 668 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: about at least in some way or tackle uh, you 669 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: know however we possibly can. Uh. It's really it's interesting 670 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: to me to hear George H. W. Bush on the 671 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 1: campaign trail speaking about it in that way as a 672 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: Republican that we can fix this thing and as a 673 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: completely non controversial issue. Yeah, and he got elected. And 674 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: you know, it's just I in some way it's inspiring 675 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: to to think that perhaps it doesn't have to be 676 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: at all such a diametrically opposed thing. But when did 677 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: it go off the rails so hard? Like that's what 678 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: I want to know. When the money got too good? Yeah, 679 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: there was a there was a concerted strategic effort in 680 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: the nineties, you know, late nineties to early too thousands 681 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 1: to take. You know, there was this number that that 682 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: um like because these industry groups were looking at this 683 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 1: number that was like, you know, I think it was 684 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: sixty or seventy of Americans felt like we needed to 685 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: do something about global warming, and they got that. They 686 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: targeted that number, and within ten years, I mean, it 687 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,240 Speaker 1: was less than fifty, even thought global warming was happening. 688 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: So it's not this is like, this is where I 689 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: get annoyed when people are sort of like, oh, we 690 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: almost did something, but you know, humans and it's hard 691 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: to change blah bah blah. I'm like, uh no, there 692 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: was a concerted effort to manipulate the American public into 693 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 1: thinking something other than what the science was telling them, 694 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,720 Speaker 1: Like we have documentation of that. It was paid for heavily, 695 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: like it was. You know, we have the the plan 696 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,399 Speaker 1: that they that they made, which was very like, Okay, first, 697 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna do this. We're gonna like place all these 698 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: ads in like Schlimbaughs show and this show and that 699 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: show and start to get people thinking about it as 700 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: like a conservative versus liberal thing. And you know, it's 701 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: very it was very intentional in the same way that 702 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, this is why I think 703 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 1: I make this comparison in season one about um, you know, 704 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,760 Speaker 1: people kind of talk today as though this like Russian 705 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: bought thing is like a totally new animal, and I'm like, like, 706 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: people who with an agenda have been using our existing 707 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: divides to like you know, get their way forever, like 708 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: you know, for for a long time. Absolutely, And in 709 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: the odd thing is that with the with the ease 710 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: at which the average person can access information now, Uh, 711 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's sort of like when uh, Philip 712 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: Farnsworth first invented television, people thought, what an amazing tool 713 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,879 Speaker 1: for learning, right, And here we are in twenty ninths 714 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,439 Speaker 1: and we see we see a similar thing because when 715 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 1: we're inundated with information, it becomes much more difficult to 716 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:12,320 Speaker 1: parse that information. And that this this all leads us to, uh, 717 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: when one of the biggest questions and perhaps the one 718 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: we close the episode with today, which is hate to 719 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: put you on the spot about this, amy, but what 720 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: happens now? What happens next? Dear God, what do we do? 721 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, I think I do. I do see 722 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: some optimism in the fact that UM politicians are having 723 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: to answer questions about climate change a lot, and and 724 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 1: the recent kind of UM survey numbers are showing that 725 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,279 Speaker 1: the vast majority of Americans don't see this as a 726 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 1: part of an issue anymore. That people do see it 727 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: as something that we need to do something about, and 728 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: that UM like to my earlier point that it doesn't 729 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 1: that it's not necessary really required that people believe that 730 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: it's humans who are causing the problem to want to 731 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: do something about it. So that's all pretty positive. But honestly, 732 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: I mean, um, I think and I think this was 733 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: pretty clear in the Nature study to there needs to 734 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: be um a draw down of of fossil fuels, and 735 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: I think that that's unlikely to happen voluntarily. So in 736 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: my opinion, I think that any government that takes seriously 737 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: this sort of threat to humans has got to have 738 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,360 Speaker 1: a plan for how you do that. I'm gonna go 739 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 1: ahead and predict here that world War three begins when 740 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,320 Speaker 1: when some government somewhere tries to take away all our cars, 741 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 1: and then World War three begins and climate change. We're 742 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: saved from climate change, but that all the nuclear holocaust 743 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,800 Speaker 1: thing it happens, Matt, We're going to hold you to that. Yeah, 744 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: that's we're gonna We're gonna better around of beers on that. Also, 745 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: maybe the world's influential politicians and executives who give lip 746 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: service to these sorts of problems should stop flying internationally 747 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: to protest the problems of initials. Man. I've just say 748 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,320 Speaker 1: there's there's a difference between you know, the individual action 749 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: and the collective action. And sometimes sometimes we are taught 750 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: depending on where we live in our neck of the 751 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: global woods. We're taught that our individual actions don't matter 752 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: or are mathematically very similar to zero. But that's not 753 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: the case, uh, Amy, Thank you so much for coming 754 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: on the show today. The podcast is Drilled, and we've 755 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: taken a high level look at UH, the the active UH. 756 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 1: If we want to be cavalier about it, the Active 757 00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: Shenanigan's pulled by x on Mobile and others UH to 758 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: continue kicking the can down the road for future generations. 759 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,359 Speaker 1: If you like this show, the first two or three 760 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 1: episodes of Drilled will be right up your alley because 761 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 1: it really does take you through essentially a conspiracy that 762 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 1: occurred to convince the American people that climate change is 763 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: not real or manmade. Not to mention. They're like the 764 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: perfect little kind of digestible nuggets of episodes. They're like 765 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,320 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes apiece. You can binge this whole thing really quickly. 766 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 1: The sound designs great, the music is great. The whole 767 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 1: thing just me. It's really evocative and it really doesn't 768 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,360 Speaker 1: You guys do such a great job of telling the story. 769 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: If you want to hear more amazing stories, you can 770 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 1: check out the critical Frequency network that we talked about 771 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,760 Speaker 1: at the top of the show where this podcast lives. 772 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,920 Speaker 1: And most importantly, we would like to hear your thoughts 773 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,799 Speaker 1: on climate change. How have you encountered this in your 774 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: personal life, both both climate change science and efforts to 775 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,959 Speaker 1: argue for climate change denial. You can tell us about 776 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,879 Speaker 1: this on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. You can find us 777 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: on our group page Here's where it gets crazy, where 778 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: you can talk to our favorite part of the show, 779 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,359 Speaker 1: your fellow listeners. If you would like to call us, 780 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: we are one eight three three st d w y 781 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: t K. That's just stuff they don't want you to 782 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: know over now as letters, but it's numbers. You'll get it. 783 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: If you'd like to find us individually on Instagram, um, 784 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: you can find me at how Now Noel Brown, Ben 785 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,720 Speaker 1: I think you're on there as well. The rumors are true. 786 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,920 Speaker 1: You can find me at ben Bowling. And if you say, guys, 787 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: this is a wonderful, terrifying topic and I have I 788 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: have some have some opinions, I have some science I 789 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: would like to bring to bear, but I hate social media. 790 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: We're right there with you. You can send us an 791 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,359 Speaker 1: email directly. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com 792 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,879 Speaker 1: and usually we'd leave you right there. But Amy, if 793 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,480 Speaker 1: anybody wants to reach out to you, is there? What 794 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,760 Speaker 1: what's your social How can people get in contact with you? Yeah, 795 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Amy Westervelt and you can email 796 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,760 Speaker 1: me at um Amy at Critical Frequency dot org. Awesome, 797 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 1: it's Am, y M y H. Stuff they don't want 798 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:22,640 Speaker 1: you to know is a production of I Heart Radio's 799 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 800 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,320 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 801 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:29,720 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.