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Speaker 1: What is the historic origins of confession, why are people

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Speaker 1: so frightened of it?

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Speaker 2: And why is it needed now more than ever?

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Speaker 1: And we'll get into the US bishops still leaning in

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Speaker 1: on immigration. All on the Prayerful Posse. Stay there, welcome

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Speaker 1: to an important Prayerful Posse. Be sure to subscribe to

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Speaker 1: the show. It's a wonderful way to show your support.

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Speaker 1: Totally free, and you can visit Raymondroyo dot com if

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Speaker 1: you'd like to contribute.

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Speaker 2: It keeps the show going. Now, let's convene the Prayerful Posse.

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Speaker 1: Canon Lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese of New York, Father

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Speaker 1: Gerald Murray, and editor in chief of the Catholic Thing

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Speaker 1: dot org, Robert Royal.

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Speaker 2: Gents. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You know, viewers have been asking us for weeks now

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Speaker 1: to look into the origins of sacraments. There's some confusion

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Speaker 1: surrounding them, and I thought, with Lent coming up, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to start with a look at confession now, Father,

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Speaker 1: and then we're going to get I promise we'll get

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Speaker 1: to some of the contemporary news story's bursting all over

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Speaker 1: the church. But Father, in the Bible in James five sixteen,

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Speaker 1: you find the line confess your sins one to another.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean? Protestants say, we can do it ourselves,

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Speaker 2: we don't need a formal sacrament.

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Speaker 3: Well, our divine Savior, after he rose from the deads

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Speaker 3: told the apostles the sins of those you forgive are forgiven.

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Speaker 3: If you held the sins bound, they are held bound.

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Speaker 3: So he gave them the power to forgive sins. And

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Speaker 3: of course, how can you forgive sins if you don't

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Speaker 3: know what the sins are. So that's why confession exactly

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Speaker 3: the reference to confess your sins to another. We confess

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Speaker 3: our sins to a priest because he has the power

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Speaker 3: to forgive, and knowing what the sins are engaging your repentance,

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Speaker 3: he will either give absolution, which is the usual course,

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Speaker 3: or he might tell the person you need really to

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Speaker 3: repent of this, so you can come back a later

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Speaker 3: time to be forgiven once you really repented.

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Speaker 1: And you're really touching on APAs st succession, which is

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Speaker 1: the idea of Here were the apostles. They were ordained

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Speaker 1: by Jesus to carry out this mission. They ordained men

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Speaker 1: through the ages right down to the current pope and

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Speaker 1: the bishops. We find among us and you father and

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Speaker 1: ordained clergy, right that comes to that same chain of command,

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Speaker 1: if you.

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Speaker 4: Will, yep.

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Speaker 3: And that's the nature of the sacrament of Holy Orders.

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Speaker 3: It's not just like a job you take up and

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Speaker 3: put down. You are ordained following an Apostolic succession, and

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Speaker 3: as a servant of Christ and the Church, you administer

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Speaker 3: the sacraments, and of course the sacrament of confession one

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Speaker 3: of the sacraments we confer the most because it's one

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Speaker 3: of the sacraments that the Lord left precisely to deal

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Speaker 3: with the crises of human life, which is basically sin.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, you've written about this cultural allergy that we

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Speaker 1: all have to guilt and shame. Does that keep people

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Speaker 1: from this very important sacrament and having to voice to

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Speaker 1: a priest?

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Speaker 5: Well, I suppose it is. I think that most of

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Speaker 5: us were are Catholics and have had the experience or confession,

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Speaker 5: have a very different approach to it. One of the

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Speaker 5: things I've often said that when I get to Saint

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Speaker 5: Peter before the Pearly Gates, and if I need some

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Speaker 5: testimony of what I did in my life, my children

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Speaker 5: have often said to me how great confession is that

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Speaker 5: they know I taught them, and if they sometimes I

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Speaker 5: had to drag them there after they did some things,

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Speaker 5: but that sense of relief that you never have to

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Speaker 5: think about it again, which is what I said to them,

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Speaker 5: and that God himself has forgiving you for what you did.

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Speaker 5: There's something wrong you did, You've acknowledged it, and the

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Speaker 5: fact of telling that to someone makes a difference. Saint

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Speaker 5: John Paul's second used to say that it is one

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Speaker 5: of the great expressions of the dignity of a human

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Speaker 5: being that he kneels down before the Almighty and says,

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Speaker 5: forgive me because I've done something wrong. And for all

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Speaker 5: the historical objections that some people are raised, and there

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Speaker 5: is a development of the sacrament of confession if you

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Speaker 5: look back historically, the people should not be deceived about this.

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Speaker 5: There are points at which we see that the emerging development,

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Speaker 5: as sink John Henry Numan said, the development of the sacrament,

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Speaker 5: you know, comes forward stronger and stronger. And so what

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Speaker 5: we have, as Father rightly says, is that pipeline right

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Speaker 5: back to the Lord himself, saying that who sends you

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Speaker 5: you forgive, are forgiven? What a wonderful thing for a

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Speaker 5: human being.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're going to go through that historic progression

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Speaker 1: and what it means to us in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Do you father, And I'm going to ask both of

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Speaker 1: you this because I'm my own predilection when it comes

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Speaker 1: to this, do you prefer behind the screen where your

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Speaker 1: your identity is concealed from the priest you're confessing to,

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Speaker 1: or face to face where you're confronting your confessor.

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Speaker 3: Well, usually as a priest, that's face to face because

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Speaker 3: it's from priest the priest, if.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: And usually I'm not going at the times when the

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Speaker 3: priest is in church, I'm you know, visiting a priest.

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Speaker 3: Friends take time for a quick confession, that's the way

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Speaker 3: priests generally do it among themselves. But for hearing confession,

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Speaker 3: I prefer that the other person be behind the screen

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Speaker 3: because that way I don't get into an emotional face

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Speaker 3: to face attachment, and particularly when you know things could

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Speaker 3: be very emotional or dicey, let's say, people talking about things.

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Speaker 4: I'd rather just have, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, say, look, I'm just God serving here. You don't

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Speaker 3: need to see my facial reactions.

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Speaker 1: Bob, do you prefer behind the screen? I like behind

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Speaker 1: the screen. I like the anonymity may be the only

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Speaker 1: anonymity I get, and sometimes I don't get that. They'll say,

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Speaker 1: don't worry, Raymond, it's okay. At the end of the confessed,

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Speaker 1: which is like, yeah, I.

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Speaker 5: Suppose, by and large, I like being behind the screen.

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Speaker 5: I have to say I don't mind confessing face to

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Speaker 5: face to a priest. I think I've done as enough

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Speaker 5: times over the years, and actually some of the times

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Speaker 5: it's been some of the best confessions that I've ever had,

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Speaker 5: especially if the priest himself is very good. You know, dah,

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Speaker 5: there's a kind of engagement that can be there. But look,

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Speaker 5: this is not really you know me as Robert Royal

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Speaker 5: and a priest x whoever that might be. This is

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Speaker 5: the interaction between a soul and God himself. And so

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Speaker 5: I would say to anybody out there who's afraid of

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Speaker 5: going face to face, and I know lots of people are, yeah,

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Speaker 5: something in my own family or among my friends, it's

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Speaker 5: good to embrace that humility, to just know that everybody

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Speaker 5: is a sinner. I used to tell my kids to look,

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Speaker 5: the priest has heard everything that you're going to tell

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Speaker 5: them a million times, so don't think you're going to

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Speaker 5: go in there and say anything novel to them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't surprise them. But I agree with you.

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Speaker 1: The screen for me, I think Father sort of hits it.

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Speaker 1: The screen for me creates that the deeper.

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Speaker 2: Understanding that you're confessing to Jesus.

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Speaker 1: You're not confessing to Father Jerry or for the Father

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Speaker 1: John or Father Bob. You're confessing to Jesus. That priest

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Speaker 1: is really there in the place of Jesus. He's the

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Speaker 1: conduit of the sacrament and the obviously one who confects it,

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Speaker 1: but he's standing in place of Christ, as he does

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Speaker 1: in all the sacramental life.

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Speaker 4: Father yep.

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Speaker 3: And that's really what it is all about. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the purpose of the Catholic Church is not to exalt itself.

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Speaker 3: It's really to go and become the instrument of Christ

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Speaker 3: in the world. And that's seen most clearly in the sacraments,

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Speaker 3: because even though there's someone doing it, because that's Christ's command,

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Speaker 3: it's really Christ himself operating through the ministrations of the priest.

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Speaker 1: get to the Biblical foundation for for the sacrament of confession.

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Speaker 2: Father. In John twenty twenty one to twenty three, you read.

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Speaker 1: Whose sins you forgive or forgiven? Who sins you retain

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Speaker 1: or retain? You mentioned this earlier. That is considered the

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Speaker 1: institution of the sacrament cost sacrament if you will. You know,

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Speaker 1: So when people say, I confess directly to God, why

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Speaker 1: do I need a priest?

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Speaker 2: You would say what to them?

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Speaker 3: Well, you have to say, then why did Jesus say

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Speaker 3: that to the apostles? In other words, he gave them

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Speaker 3: the power. So, and you know, one of the consoling

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Speaker 3: things is when you do confess to a priest and

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Speaker 3: you hear the words of absolution, you know your sins

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Speaker 3: are forgiven. When you confess directly to God, you hope

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Speaker 3: they're forgiven, but you don't have that assurance effect.

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Speaker 4: GK.

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Speaker 3: Chesterd And said that in his book Why I Became

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Speaker 3: a Catholic. He said, the reason I became a Catholic

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Speaker 3: is I knew my sins were forgiven. And that really

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Speaker 3: is a consoling thing. On a psychological level, it's very consoling.

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Speaker 3: It's like the final word, you know, and you don't

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Speaker 3: have to I remember what Mark Twain said, if you

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Speaker 3: always tell the truth. You don't have to remember anything.

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Speaker 3: And I think you apply to confession. If you go

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Speaker 3: to confession, you don't have to remember your sins anymore.

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Speaker 1: Now it's all gone. It's all gone, and that's the

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Speaker 1: way it should be. You don't want to carry that

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Speaker 1: stuff around either. I mean, that's you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: heavy burden. There are lots of people who just carry

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Speaker 1: it around with them. What about the philosophical and cultural

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Speaker 1: case here, Bob, Why does confession make sense even outside

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Speaker 1: of theology, just on a practical human level.

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Speaker 5: Well, like anything else. To be able to say who

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Speaker 5: you are and to say what's been good and what's

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Speaker 5: been bad in your life, this is just good for

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Speaker 5: you as a human being. You're being who you are,

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Speaker 5: and you're being who you are not just to some

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Speaker 5: trusted person, a friend or a family member, but to

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Speaker 5: God himself. I mean to recognize to God himself. You know,

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Speaker 5: I was just reading a book about prayer the other

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Speaker 5: day and the actually this may have been for Pope

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Speaker 5: Leo Plio said that when you pray to God, you

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Speaker 5: don't tell God things that he doesn't already know. You know,

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Speaker 5: he's all powerful, he's all knowing, but you do it

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Speaker 5: for yourself. You do it for the sake of yourself,

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Speaker 5: to say to him what you need, or what other

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Speaker 5: people need, or the situation that you're in, you need help.

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Speaker 5: All this is very good for being a human being

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Speaker 5: and the church over this course of years. Look by

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Speaker 5: the way, there were problems earlier on in the church

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Speaker 5: with people who made these same objections. There were if

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Speaker 5: you read Augustine's confessions, he talks about how many people

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Speaker 5: thought at the time, and even the Emperor Constantine thought

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Speaker 5: this that once you received baptism and your sins were

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Speaker 5: washed away, that was it. You couldn't sin anymore, because

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Speaker 5: then you were in real trouble. Well, Augustine said, this

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Speaker 5: isn't realistic. I mean, he's along with many other great

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Speaker 5: fathers of the Church. He just said, you can't expect

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Speaker 5: the people who are sinful people and are fallen are

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Speaker 5: going to forever never have a sliding back into sinfulness.

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Speaker 5: So there has to be a way to deal with that.

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Speaker 5: And it's varied in its forms over the years, but

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Speaker 5: that has been a constant. I mean, if our sins,

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Speaker 5: if Jesus did not come into the world to save us,

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Speaker 5: if our sins are not really death in the spiritual

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Speaker 5: sins in some cases, I mean, even in this world,

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Speaker 5: horrible things that we do. What was this purpose of

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Speaker 5: coming here to tell us some good news? Well that's great,

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Speaker 5: but we have to engage that and then do something

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Speaker 5: about the failures that we have and try to repair

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Speaker 5: them with God.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Father, I want to talk a moment about Bob

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Speaker 1: referenced this earlier sort of the evolution of confession where

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Speaker 1: the sacrament originated. Now we know in the early Church

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Speaker 1: apostasy was publicly confessed. I mean it was because it

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Speaker 1: was a public scandal, if you will, So they had

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Speaker 1: a public contrition. But the dedicate, now this is written

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Speaker 1: in seventy AD. It reads, confess your sins in church

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Speaker 1: and do not go up to your prayer with an

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Speaker 1: evil conscience.

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Speaker 2: Now, and that would be of course to a priest

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Speaker 2: or a bishop.

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Speaker 1: It was formalized in the we have now or you know,

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Speaker 1: a semi form that we had now in the fourth

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Speaker 1: lateran counsul in twelve fifteen, and that was the council

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Speaker 1: that ordained that once a year you had to confess

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Speaker 1: your sins to a priest.

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Speaker 2: Why isn't confession preached.

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Speaker 1: More regularly, father, and this historical background and the importance

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so there was, as you and Barbara mentioned, a

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Speaker 3: different form. There was public confession of sins with public penances.

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Speaker 4: So therefore, you know, people.

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Speaker 3: In the old days, in the beginning of the church,

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Speaker 3: it was quite rigorous, but there was also a system

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Speaker 3: of private penance where you would confess to priest and

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Speaker 3: then you would be forgiven, and then you'd be assigned

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Speaker 3: your penance, which is what we basically have now now.

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Speaker 4: As regards why.

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Speaker 3: Isn't it preached more often, this is one of those things,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's sort of like there's nothing you know,

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Speaker 3: a good Catholic is basically a bad Catholic who's trying to.

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Speaker 4: Be a good Catholic.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's we're all falling short, but we don't

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Speaker 3: all take advantage of the means necessary to become that

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Speaker 3: better Catholic, and people are afraid to go to confession.

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Speaker 3: It was Saint John Damassin said, you know, God, we

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Speaker 3: God takes away we lose. We have no shame about sinning,

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Speaker 3: but then we have shame about confessing.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 3: In other words, we have this psychological uh reversal.

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Speaker 4: We should be a shamed of sin and be happy

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Speaker 4: to be so.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, back to the question really is, are people willing

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Speaker 3: in humility to say, look, I'm one further sinner on

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Speaker 3: the planet, I'm not missed a special who doesn't have

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Speaker 3: to go to confession and basically get in line. If

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Speaker 3: one of the more inspiring things is, you know, hearing

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Speaker 3: stories about people like Justice Thomas and Justice Scalia going

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Speaker 3: to the local parishes in d C. And getting a

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Speaker 3: life a confession. You know, I remember one story about

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Speaker 3: Justice Thomas, he who told his clerks, look, sorry, I

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Speaker 3: got to leave the office and I'm going to confession

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Speaker 3: over at the Capitol Hill parish. And that's what he did.

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Speaker 3: And you know I mentioned because he's a famous person.

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Speaker 3: But are your confessor all the time? People from business, homeowners,

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Speaker 3: you know, family people, employees, tourists, anybody can go to

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Speaker 3: confession in New York City.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Bob.

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Speaker 1: We often hear, especially from from some of our Protestant friends,

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Speaker 1: that look, when a person is saved, you can't lose

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Speaker 1: your salvation. Now, I don't know how that squares with

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Speaker 1: that line. You know, we shall work out our salvation

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Speaker 1: and fear and trembling but your thought on that idea

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Speaker 1: that once saved, always saved, and how that really conflicts

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Speaker 1: with the scripture.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that.

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Speaker 5: You know, as we know, part of the problem with

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Speaker 5: Protestantism is its private interpretation of Scripture. And as many

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Speaker 5: of our great saints and confessors have said in the

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Speaker 5: history of Catholicism, if everybody is his own hysteria, and

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Speaker 5: what we end up with is a confusion because you

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Speaker 5: conflicting readings of you know, what is the truth about something?

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Speaker 5: I remember, you know, I was watching the series That Chosen,

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Speaker 5: you know, this TV series about Jesus that was done

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Speaker 5: mostly by evangelicals, and I'm kind of ambivalent about it.

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Speaker 5: I like it because I think it explained, it explains

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Speaker 5: or it shows certain things that happened, and then others

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Speaker 5: are there are a little bit too much evangelical brownness

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Speaker 5: among the among the apostles. But I remember there was

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Speaker 5: one scene where Mary Magdalen just kind of falls off

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Speaker 5: the wagon a little bit. She goes back and she

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Speaker 5: isn't a prostitute, but what she is is she's she's

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Speaker 5: drinking wine and she's playing cards somewhere, and then she

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Speaker 5: repents and she comes back to Jesus and Jonathan Romy

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Speaker 5: says to her, Mary, did you think that once you

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Speaker 5: began to follow me you would never sin again?

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Speaker 6: That's not how this works.

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Speaker 5: So even you know, some of the evangelicals, I've recognized

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Speaker 5: that there's this ongoing work of redemption within us, and

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Speaker 5: that confession and that recognizing that when we have stepped

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Speaker 5: off the proper path, how else are we going to

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Speaker 5: know what the real life in God is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is so important, and you know, I tell everybody,

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Speaker 1: and I know there are many watching right now who

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Speaker 1: haven't been to confession in a long time.

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Speaker 2: And you're scared, or you're worried, or.

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Speaker 1: You don't know what it'll be like, or you remember

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Speaker 1: from when you were a child.

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Speaker 2: Go to confession.

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Speaker 1: It will be consoling, It will lift your spirits, it

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Speaker 1: will relieve your spiritual tension and the things you've been

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Speaker 1: holding on to.

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Speaker 2: Father.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you a final word on this before we

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Speaker 1: get to some news.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm you know, thinking about when we're children, we

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Speaker 3: have to answer to our parents, right, you know what

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Speaker 3: we did today?

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Speaker 4: Once you come into those said, I don't have to

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Speaker 4: answer to.

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Speaker 3: Anybody long answer, you have to answer to God and

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Speaker 3: confession is one of those places where we say, good Lord,

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Speaker 3: I failed. I need your help put me back on

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Speaker 3: the right path.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, when we're all broken and we make mistakes and

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Speaker 1: we sin, and you have to repair that breach, you

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Speaker 1: have to heal that.

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Speaker 2: You know, we don't know how long.

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Speaker 1: We're here, and if the ripcord gets pulled before you

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Speaker 1: think you know the time is up, you'll be in

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Speaker 1: big trouble.

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Speaker 2: Go to confession.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's turn our attention to what's happening in the

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Speaker 1: church this week. I want to start with our bishops

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Speaker 1: and ICE. We reported on this last week.

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Speaker 2: It continues.

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Speaker 1: Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark called for ICE to be

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Speaker 1: defunded this week in this video message, Rod In this.

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Speaker 6: Week, when an appropriations bill is going to be considered

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Speaker 6: in Congress, will you contact your Congress, your congressional representatives,

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Speaker 6: to senators and representative from your district. We ask them,

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Speaker 6: for the love of God and the love of human beings,

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Speaker 6: vote against renewing funding for such a lawless organization.

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Speaker 1: Father a law enforcement agency ICE, they're enforcing the law,

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Speaker 1: but Cardinal Tobyn says they're lawless.

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Speaker 2: Your reaction to this Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I don't think they're lawless. These are law officers enforcing

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Speaker 3: the law. Now, the question is in the process of

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Speaker 3: law enforcement. Sadly and unfortunately, two people were shot dead

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Speaker 3: by police officers. The circumstances of those shootings are you know,

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Speaker 3: subject to investigation.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: But that's one of the sad results that we've seen

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Speaker 3: in this ice enforcement attempt in Minnesota, where people are

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Speaker 3: interfering with police officers. And we'll leave it up to

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Speaker 3: the investigators to make a decision on whether police operated,

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Speaker 3: you know, within their the law and their rights, or

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Speaker 3: whether they're with any violations. Now, the organization is not lawless,

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Speaker 3: and you know, let's reserve judgment on what these police

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Speaker 3: officers did. Uh, and then we can make a fair judgment.

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Speaker 2: But Bob, is this lending moral cover to the threats

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Speaker 2: being faced by ice agents, border patrol agents, many of

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Speaker 2: whom are Catholic.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think this is an unfortunate statement by Tobin.

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Speaker 5: Tobman is not a stupid man. He's likable actually in

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Speaker 5: a lot of ways. But this is sort of tantamount

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Speaker 5: to say, defund the police. You know, you need a

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Speaker 5: police force, you need a force. It's also going to

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Speaker 5: control immigration in a country like the United States. Look,

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Speaker 5: there can be errors, just like there are police errors.

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Speaker 5: But they talk about defunding ICE. What you really want

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Speaker 5: to do is get better oversight, better training, you know,

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Speaker 5: make sure that the people who are out there, and

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Speaker 5: by the way, they're facing a very very heavy protest

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Speaker 5: from a variety of people, and you've got to expect

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Speaker 5: that when people are standing in the way of law enforcement,

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Speaker 5: which they should not be doing, these tragic situations occur.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's terrible what happened to that young mother.

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Speaker 5: It's terrible what happened to that ICU nurse the other day.

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Speaker 5: But this is a much more complicated circle stance thans

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Speaker 5: just defunding ICE. And from what I understand from the

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Speaker 5: political particulars in this case, defunding ICE. ICE is already

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Speaker 5: funded through like the next two or three years, so

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Speaker 5: if you defund it now, it's not going to take

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Speaker 5: effect for a long time. And what it does is

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Speaker 5: it actually harms the TSA and FEMA, the emergency relief

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Speaker 5: and our security at airports and whatnot. So this is

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Speaker 5: this is taking a gun to a fleet. You have

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Speaker 5: to deal with a smaller problem and not make a

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Speaker 5: large political statement that doesn't meet the case.

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Speaker 1: And look, it's a terrible This Minneapolis situation is awful.

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Speaker 1: I mean, two people are dead. It's a tragedy. But

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Speaker 1: when you step back, you know, and I've talked to

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Speaker 1: a lot of reporters, people who live in Minneapolis, some

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Speaker 1: of the people who've been at these protests, they will

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Speaker 1: tell you this, and this isn't getting covered enough.

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Speaker 2: To my mind.

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Speaker 1: The local law enforcement, the Minneapolis police are blocks away.

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Speaker 1: So when ICE goes in, these protesters follow them, they

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Speaker 1: start harassing the officers.

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Speaker 2: They outnumber them. They're creating a fearful environment.

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Speaker 1: That's like a powder keg and putting the protesters in

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Speaker 1: danger and the ICE agents in danger. And when people

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Speaker 1: are on edge like that and there's no buffer, no

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Speaker 1: local law enforcement engaging, that's a real problem. And if

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Speaker 1: you ask me, what do I think could remedy this quickly?

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Speaker 1: Local law enforcement getting involved, putting a perimeter up between

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Speaker 1: protests and Ice. But there are political forces that want

438
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 1: this clash, They want these moments, they want the sound

439
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: bite and the visuals. This is an awful way to

440
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: go and it's putting lives at risk. And look up

441
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,479
Speaker 1: in Minnesota, Bishop Robert Neery of Saint Cloud released his

442
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: own video to latinos lamenting ice enforcement.

443
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 7: Watch may not painna saver q status issus familia is

444
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 7: viving bajuno scura, they beat a lot of presentia, they

445
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 7: can't stay and sus pueblos vesin dadios iss loes. It's

446
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 7: comprehensively mielo de sali de sus casas mere jevada alascuela

447
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 7: in Mucu Siu status jajar for resco de ser aristados

448
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 7: includes cicio la misa dominica, los pone and gresco jaquilosaentes

449
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 7: de isa vesees anasado fuerra.

450
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: Father and Bob, What is the effect of this in

451
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 1: the in as I mentioned a moment ago the powder

452
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: keg of Minnesota after these terrible shootings.

453
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 3: Well, you know, the the issue here is no one

454
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 3: should be afraid of any police force if they're not

455
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 3: violating the law. So if someone is afraid of immigration

456
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 3: and Customs enforcement because they're here illegally, well there's a

457
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 3: remedy to that, which is remove your illegal presence. The

458
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 3: government has announced that more than two million people have

459
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 3: done voluntary repatriots paid for by the US government. In

460
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 3: other words, two million of legal aliens are no longer

461
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: legal aliens. They're back in their home countries and they

462
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 3: will be qualified to apply for legal status and immigration permission. So,

463
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 3: you know, put it in the broader context. The government

464
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 3: is dealing the United States government. I was dealing with

465
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 3: four years of unregulated entry into this country of anybody

466
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 3: who showed up at the border, and that created social

467
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 3: and political and criminal chaos. And the message being given

468
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 3: by this government is no, we're referring back to our

469
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 3: laws and we're going to enforce them. So look, I'm

470
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 3: very sympathetic that people want to live in the US.

471
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 3: I'm in favor of big legal immigration. I think it's great.

472
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 3: Legal immigration is the strength of this country in so

473
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,479
Speaker 3: many ways because we need to renew our workforce and

474
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 3: allow people to come here. But illegal immigration is corrosive

475
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 3: because it basically turns the rule of law into an

476
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 3: option that's not an opt. If you have no rule

477
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 3: of law, your society becomes chaotic.

478
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, it sounds like you can't be catholic and

479
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 1: still support and forcing the law that is on the books.

480
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

481
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 5: Unfortunately, your father's quite right. This is a longstanding problem,

482
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 5: and people keep talking about comprehensive immigration reform, but we

483
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 5: never get it. We've had bishops as for that recently too.

484
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 5: It is because of the clash of the different visions

485
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 5: between Republicans and Democrats. But the crux of the problem

486
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 5: here is that goes back. You cannot have we don't

487
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 5: even know how many illegal immigrants we have in this

488
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 5: country with ten million, twelve twenty million, I mean, who knows,

489
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 5: and the strain that this puts on our system. We

490
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 5: already have a lot of poor. The same thing is

491
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 5: set in Europe by the way that they have large

492
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 5: pockets of poor in every European country, and you bring

493
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 5: in a large number of people who are looking for

494
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 5: work and they've been encouraged to come into your country

495
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 5: even though it's illegal. So you know, some of the

496
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 5: blame has got to go and go back ten and

497
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 5: even twenty twenty five years, because this is a train

498
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 5: that didn't just start it recently when Trump was reelected again,

499
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 5: We've got years and years and years of allowing an

500
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 5: illegal situation to continue. And yes, I agree with father,

501
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 5: I think that we can increase the level of legal immigration,

502
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 5: and we already allowing over a million people a year.

503
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 5: That has been distorted a little bit in the past.

504
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 5: Since the sixties, we tended to move away from the

505
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 5: European countries, which are more compatible with our culture, and

506
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 5: we turned toward Asia and Africa. Maybe that has to

507
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 5: be worked on as well. But there's just no remedy

508
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 5: if you're here illegally. That's why you're worried about going anywhere.

509
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, it's the church's position to

510
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: help the migrants, to help refugees.

511
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 2: I'm all for that.

512
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: But when you're targeting, and that's what this sounds like,

513
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,959
Speaker 1: you're making ice and law enforcement look like thugs and predators.

514
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 2: That's not the case. They're enforcing the law of the land.

515
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: If you don't like the law of the land, then

516
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: the bishops should join the picket line and protest, the

517
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: lobby their congress people and senators and get them to

518
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: change the laws. But the law has to be enforced.

519
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: That's the way the United States works. I want to

520
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: raise something with you, father. The pillar, it seems to me,

521
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: is turning the pot a bit here, stirring the pot.

522
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, Bishop Weisenberger rose to the floor and

523
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: he suggested and the pillar claims that this is this

524
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: idea is once again presenting itself to the bishops.

525
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 2: Not so sure of that.

526
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: But Weisenberger wanted to raise the possibility of canonical penalties

527
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: being applied to anyone involved in family separation. So if

528
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: Ice came in and say, there's a man who crossed

529
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: the border with four kids that he claimed his family, okay,

530
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: and they get separated, Weisenberger and others would like to

531
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: drop canonical penalties on that officer or anybody else involved

532
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: to his Catholic because of their involvement.

533
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 4: Your take on this, yeah, I disagree with him.

534
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 3: There is no canonical penalty for working for law enforcement

535
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 3: agency and enforcing the law. And you know it certainly

536
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 3: is a kind of a pressure tactic that he's using

537
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 3: to tell Catholics, well, you're going to be subject to

538
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 3: a canonical penalty. I don't know what canonical penalty he

539
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 3: has in mind. Certainly there's no offense in canon law

540
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: for you know, working for the government and doing what

541
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: is basically the will of the people because it was

542
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 3: enacted by the people's representatives. This is this is how

543
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 3: this law came into being.

544
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 4: And you're absolutely right, Bob.

545
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 3: If you don't like the law, work to change it,

546
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: but this penalty is no, I don't think.

547
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: Well, he says, here's the justification he said. This is

548
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: the quote.

549
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: However, in light of the canonical penalties that are there

550
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: for life issues, I'm simply asking the question if perhaps

551
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: one canonical affairs our Canonical Affairs Committee could give recommendations,

552
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: at least to those of us who are border bishops,

553
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: on the possibility of canonical penalties for Catholics involved in

554
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: family separation, which is in quotes in the pillar piece.

555
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 3: Well, the canonical penalty for life issues, I mean that's

556
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: a euphemism meaning abortion. There is an automatic excommunication for

557
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: committing abortion, but that's a crime against an innocent human being.

558
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: To enforce the law, and you know, family separation is

559
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 3: you know, was an emotional tactic used to stigmatize the

560
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 3: immigration enforcement. But as you point out, and it's been

561
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 3: documented so well, a lot of people were trafficking in children.

562
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 3: So when the government, you know, would try to separate

563
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 3: somebody from their so called if they're alleged parent, it

564
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 3: was often to try and verify if it really was

565
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: their parent. That's a legitimate law enforce and that happens

566
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 3: all the time. By the way, when you have these

567
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: prostitution rings in big cities, the police aren't going to say, Okay,

568
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 3: we'll ask you a question only if you know big

569
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: Daddy is in the room.

570
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 4: They don't do that.

571
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: No, no, And many times you have to separate to

572
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: confirm who is a real family here, and many times

573
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: they aren't related, or the family is actually back in Columbia.

574
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: But that's up to us as a government to figure

575
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: that out, to protect those children, the innocent, the vulnerable,

576
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: and that's where our hearts should be. The liturgical wars

577
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: are also continuing here in the US. Cardinal Blaze Sup.

578
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: Bitch of Chicago said this about the Latin Mass. He said, again,

579
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: as in keeping with his predecessor, Saint Pope Pius the Fifth,

580
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: there must be only one right as a means of

581
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: preserving the unity of the church end quote Bob. Leaving

582
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: aside the fact that there are over twenty different rights.

583
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: In the in communion with.

584
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: Rome, what's really driving this animosity toward the traditional Latin Mass.

585
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 5: Well, look, I'm not going to look into the soul

586
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 5: of Cardinal Soup Bitch, but not only here, but in

587
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 5: several countries in Western Europe, there's a presumption that someone

588
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 5: who is in favor of worshiping through the traditional Latin

589
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 5: Mass has denied the validity of Vatican two. A story

590
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 5: recently about French bishops saying this, and it really shocked

591
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 5: me because I realized that that really is. I think

592
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 5: theologically what lies at the end, at the bottom of

593
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 5: this whole thing, and I think that's that's just an assumption.

594
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 5: They're sure you can find some people in any group

595
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 5: that are going to deny Vatican two or leo Is.

596
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 5: You know, the Church is a large place, but I

597
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 5: think by and large, if you want to talk about

598
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 5: unity in liturgy, how many abuses have there been in

599
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 5: the Novis Order? I mean, the Novis Order is offered

600
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 5: in so many different ways, and even you know the

601
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 5: use of the vernacular in the Novis Ordo. If there

602
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 5: are perishes where there are two, sometimes three or more

603
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 5: languages going on at the same time, and they get along,

604
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 5: you know, reasonably well with one another. Sure, the Latin

605
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 5: Mass actually does take us back to some elements a

606
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 5: pre Vatican too, but there may be some valuable elements,

607
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 5: but back there, that's what Pope Benedict was talking about.

608
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 5: So look, I just don't get why they harp on

609
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 5: this particular thing when even you know there there are

610
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 5: some rather progressive bishops and kind of have been looking

611
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 5: at this lately and saying, well, you know what, maybe

612
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 5: it isn't worth while spending a lot of time debating this.

613
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 5: Let these people who want it have it. We have

614
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 5: other things we really our to look at, because they're

615
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 5: far more pressing for the future of the church.

616
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: Father Jerry, I found it interesting that Cardinal super invokes

617
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: Pious the fifth, but he skips right over the theological

618
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: brilliance and the piece that Benedict the sixteenth offered the

619
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: church with his wider use of the Latin Mass, with

620
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: some more in Pontificum, allowing every priest to say it,

621
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: we're kind of hopscotching over predecessors to get to one

622
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: that we like. Basically, we need one rite in the

623
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: but there isn't one right in the Catholic Church.

624
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 4: No, there isn't.

625
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 3: And it's just part of Catholic history, and it's a

626
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 3: reality that reflects something that's good in the life of

627
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: the Church, which is the diversity of worship forms. And

628
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: I think Bob is right What's it lies at stake here?

629
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: For many many people is a theological vision that they

630
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: think is being denied by the use of the traditional

631
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 3: Latin Mass. So my question to them is, well, define

632
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: your theological vision and justified according to the entirety of

633
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 3: Catholic history, rather than simply say the Mass that we

634
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 3: got after Vatican Two, that's the only mass available, because

635
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 3: the only mass that adequately reflects where the Church is.

636
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 3: And I would say, wait a minute, can't we we

637
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 3: have debates about so many things in the life of

638
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 3: the Church, some legitimate, some illegitimate. Why can't we have

639
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: a debate about why people like the old Mass when

640
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: they contrast it with the new and then try to

641
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 3: do what Pope Benedict said so well, mutual enrichment. I mean,

642
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: I would be very happy, as we've said on this

643
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 3: program before, if we went back to the nineteen sixty

644
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 3: five Missile, which was essentially the traditional Latin Mess with

645
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,959
Speaker 3: some updating and some use of the vernacular, but also

646
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 3: keeping Latin and keeping all the other forms. So it's

647
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 3: a shame. I wish that bishops had more sympathy. You know,

648
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 3: it's so sad when the you know, we have sympathy

649
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 3: for people who do great immoral things. You know, yet

650
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 3: people who want to worship are accused of the worst

651
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: kind of separatism in life at church.

652
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 4: It's just not the case.

653
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

654
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: The newly appointed bishop in the Philippines, Cyril Villa Reale,

655
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: is making headlines calling for the church to reconsider its

656
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: teaching on contraception.

657
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: He says we need a reasonable approach.

658
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: In twenty eleven, as part of his master's theological degree,

659
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: his thesis, he said, on the one hand, there's a

660
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: magisterium of the church trying to impose her teaching on sexuality,

661
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: which invokes the power of the natural law as springing

662
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: from the divine law. On the other hand, the lady

663
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: clamor about the difficulty of what the Church imposes on them.

664
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: The big question then is why can't the church change

665
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: its teaching on sexuality?

666
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: Father?

667
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: How does a bishop with that idea get appointed without

668
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: understanding that contraception isn't a matter of discipline but doctrine.

669
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, and you know, I hope he'll come

670
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 3: up and renounce and recant these views, because to claim

671
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: that humani vite is unreasonable, that just doesn't undermine that teaching.

672
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 3: It undermines all of moral theology, the entire history, and

673
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: not just natural law by the way, which some people

674
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: dismiss as not being useful. It undermines scripture, It undermines

675
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 3: the nature of marriage. It undermines the book you know,

676
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 3: Adam and Eves, the Book of Genesis. Be fruitful and multiply,

677
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 3: you know, be fruitful and multiply. Part of the divine

678
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 3: plan is it engraved in the nature of man and woman.

679
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: Of course it is, so in studying it, we're studying

680
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 3: God's will. I'm very troubled because, unfortunately this falls in

681
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: ma in line with the sixties sexual liberation movement attitude,

682
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: which is basically, the Catholic Church made you miserable by.

683
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 4: Giving you all these rules.

684
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 3: Let's make life happy because you do whatever you want

685
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 3: and God doesn't. God doesn't care what you do as

686
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 3: long as you love your neighbor. That's a lot of nonsense.

687
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 3: That's whoy, that's destructive, nihilistic thinking, which has resulted in

688
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 3: much tragedy in our society.

689
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, the idea that somehow the church is imposing

690
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: its teaching, it's cruel teaching on the poor lady. I

691
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: mean we keep hearing orthodoxy is thriving in the global

692
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: South while it collapses in the West.

693
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: But then you see stories like this.

694
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I hope Father is right, that he comes forward

695
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 5: and repudiates those earlier years. I mean that was fifteen

696
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 5: years ago, and it was written as a doctoral dissertation,

697
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 5: and you know, who knows what he was doing at

698
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 5: the time.

699
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 6: Yeah.

700
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 5: The thing that I'm worried about, like Father was saying,

701
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 5: is that it seems that if he does recant this,

702
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 5: he's kind of stumbled into a debate that we've been

703
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 5: having a long time in the church over the last

704
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 5: several decades, about proportionalism and consequentialism. These are two technical

705
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 5: terms that basically say that you can do something that's

706
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 5: wrong because the larger good, it's a utilitarian way of

707
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 5: approaching these larger good comes out of it. Well, this,

708
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 5: you know, this has been refuted over and over again.

709
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 5: If you read Dostoyevsky's novel Crime in Punishment, right, Raskolnikov

710
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 5: is this intellectual who thinks that if he murders a

711
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 5: nasty pawnbroker, he can take that money and do so

712
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 5: much good with it because the pawnbroker is greedy and

713
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 5: it's not using it for well. Sure, you can come

714
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 5: up with all kinds of rationalizations for why you can

715
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 5: do something wrong, but it has never been the nature

716
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 5: of the Church to do that. And look, I'm kind

717
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 5: of in you know, intellectual terms, I'd like to hear

718
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 5: some other ways to talk about some of these debates.

719
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 5: But the natural lar theory is one that has proven

720
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 5: itself to be fruitful, It's self consistent. It's the kind

721
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 5: of thing that Catholics have always been able to pride

722
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 5: themselves on because we can point to it and explain

723
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 5: what it is and it makes perfect sense. So when

724
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 5: you talk about a rational approach to contraception, you don't

725
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 5: want to just have the most superficial thing that you

726
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 5: saw online the other day. What you really want is

727
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 5: that deep appreciation of what reality is and the reason

728
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 5: reveals to us.

729
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Germany, Archbishop very Near Maria Volke of Cologne

730
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: just walked out of the final Sonadal Way assembly in Germany.

731
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 1: He basically said the Sonatal way is over for him,

732
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: that all those informed be involved. Rather meant well, but

733
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: one can't discuss everything with complete openness to results.

734
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: Father for our viewers who have lost track.

735
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: Remind us what the Germans have been doing here and

736
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 1: why do you think Vulke said this is enough?

737
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, the German hierarchy is by and large very left wing,

738
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 3: progressive theology, liberal, whatever you want to call it, but

739
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 3: it largely consists of a series of proposals to change

740
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: Catholic doctrine and practice. And they've been pushing this for

741
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 3: a number of years now, calling it the Cenadol way.

742
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: Pope France has even told them to stop and cautioned

743
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 3: about what they're doing, but they keep pressing on. And

744
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 3: part of their goal is to have lay people exercising

745
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 3: effective governance in the church in Germany by creating this

746
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 3: senidal committee to which all bishops will have to answer

747
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 3: in what they want to do. It's a power play.

748
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 3: It's essentially a protestantantation of the Catholic Church, because of

749
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 3: course in Protestantism, lay people exercise a lot of authority

750
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 3: in their different denominations.

751
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 4: The Catholic just doesn't believe that.

752
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 6: Now.

753
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 3: Cardinal Walke has you know, resisted this over the time,

754
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 3: you know, and what happens nothing. Now we're waiting for

755
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 3: Pope Leo to see whether he's going to let this proceed,

756
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: and he met recently about this subject. I hope Cardinal Wolke,

757
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 3: who's I would say, taking a prophetics dance. He's basically saying,

758
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 3: if your purpose is to change Catholic doctrine, I want

759
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,479
Speaker 3: nothing to do with you, because I answer to God

760
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 3: and to the Pope. I don't answer to a group

761
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 3: of bishops who are on this white Frankly, it's a

762
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 3: runaway train going off the tracks.

763
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, I want to change gears a little bit.

764
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: This is a priest we've covered in the past, a father,

765
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: Guillermi Peshotto. He is the Portuguese DJ priest. People will

766
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: remember this two point seven million Instagram followers. He continues

767
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: to be a phenomenon in the media. He's self taught

768
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: from YouTube videos. He started djaying in his forties. Then

769
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: he started lifting his parish out of debt by organizing

770
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: these small music festivals. Now fifty two, Paeshotto is performing worldwide.

771
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 5: Your reaction bomb, I really don't know what to say

772
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 5: about something like this, because you know, we talked last

773
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 5: week about about these carnival masses.

774
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah to Germany again.

775
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 5: I mean, these two things that don't seem to fit together.

776
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 5: And look, you can get a lot of clicks. I

777
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 5: suppose if you're a priest and you're doing I don't know,

778
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 5: hip hop music or popular music that people are into.

779
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 5: And it's the kind of uniqueness of the situation that

780
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 5: the clergyman is kind of engaged in this, you know,

781
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 5: this fairly low level element in our culture. I think, yeah,

782
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 5: I don't think of it. You know, I appreciate all.

783
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 6: Attempts at evangelization.

784
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, there have been some amazing saints

785
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 5: in the past who have used odd means, but this

786
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 5: one just seems to me there's a dissonance between the

787
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 5: music end of this and the spiritual end of this,

788
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 5: and so if it really produces some fruit, then God

789
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 5: bless him. But I'm a little skeptical.

790
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 2: Father, I'll give you a crack at this. We discussed this.

791
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: I mean, my problem is, look, if a fifty two

792
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: year old guard were spinning discs, nobody would pay attention.

793
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: The coller is what makes him interesting.

794
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 1: And the problem is many times they're doing this in

795
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: the setting of a cathedral or a church, turning it

796
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:15,479
Speaker 1: into like a rave.

797
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 6: Yeah.

798
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 3: No, it's unseemly his bishops should tell him to stop

799
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 3: and you know, get back to his parish and do

800
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 3: his work there, and if he's got free time, then

801
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 3: go help in the school or go visit a hospital. No,

802
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 3: it's unseemly and precisely this this is kind of like,

803
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 3: you know, a priest doing this makes it special. But

804
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 3: what the priest is doing is sentially imitating secular DJs.

805
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 3: He'll throw in maybe a few religious hymns, but that's

806
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 3: not what the audience is there for. They're not there

807
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 3: for religious experience. They're there because they like partying. And

808
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 3: I'll say, there's nothing wrong with partying, and music is good,

809
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: but this is not the realm of the priesthood.

810
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 4: I mean, we don't ordain.

811
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: People so that they can, you know, basically do a

812
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 3: secular career that in its current form is full of

813
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 3: bad music with bad lyrics. And I hope that he's

814
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 3: never done that. I have no knowledge of that, so

815
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 3: I'm just going to assume he hasn't. But you know,

816
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 3: it's just unseemly. I would say, this is not what

817
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 3: we want a priest to. I wouldn't want a priest

818
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 3: to be a ring master Barnum and Bailey's circus, you know,

819
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 3: running around in the top hat telling the clowns to

820
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 3: jump out of the clown cars.

821
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 4: Well, that's not a priest's job.

822
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: Well that's what mass has been looking like in Germany.

823
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: So we've had enough of that. That's already been tried.

824
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 1: Father already too late. Sorry, Okay, some genuinely good news.

825
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: I do want to end on a happy note. The

826
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: Archdiocese of Paris has created a special Council BOP to

827
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: handle their historic rise in converts and cate ofcumans those

828
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: coming into the French church. Now, this is similar to

829
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: our ray of hope last week, the overflowing number of

830
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: new converts coming into church in Kansas. What's happening in

831
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: secular Paris, Bob, when we see the surge of people,

832
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: young people interested in becoming Catholic.

833
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 6: Yeah.

834
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 5: Well, we've talked about this a lot, and I think

835
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 5: we need some people to dig into this. I mean,

836
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 5: good sociologists who can kind of track down why it

837
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 5: is that people say this, and as we know, they're

838
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 5: not being attracted to the you know, the clown car

839
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 5: or the DJ or you know, they're really looking for

840
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 5: something that's deeper. Because you need roots. As a human being,

841
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 5: you need to know who you are. You need to

842
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 5: know where you stand in relation to other people. You

843
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 5: need to know where you stand in relation to the past,

844
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 5: the present, and also the future, which is generally the place.

845
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 5: The place you find that is in your church, in

846
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 5: your family, and in your nation. And so at a

847
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 5: time when when the identity in France is particularly weak,

848
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, they have a tremendous Muslim influx there. Uh,

849
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 5: I mean, we have a lot of immigrants. But it's

850
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 5: not that it hasn't changed the nature of the United

851
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 5: States quite so much as what the front the French

852
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 5: are facing. And so look, it's we said this before,

853
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 5: but Catholicism works. If you preach Catholicism, people will show up.

854
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 5: Jesus drew people from everywhere, and why was that. It's

855
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 5: because He's the voice of God speaking in our world

856
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 5: about the truths that we need to live good lives

857
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 5: in this world and to eventually end up in Heaven.

858
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 5: So it's powerful if you're not. I think that a

859
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 5: lot of people are preaching the Gospel in a traditional way,

860
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 5: but also that speaks to contemporary young people. And I'd

861
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 5: be surprised if we don't see more of this. You know,

862
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 5: how these snowball effects get going. People start to see

863
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 5: how there are other friends, their lives are better, they're happier.

864
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 6: And whatnot.

865
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 5: I'm hopeful very much about what we see there and

866
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 5: also here in the United States.

867
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: The Father, I'll give you the last word here.

868
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: What can other dioceses learn from Paris and their example.

869
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: Clearly they're making movements and trying to create an infrastructure

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Speaker 1: to welcome more people into the church.

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00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, bravo to the Diocese of Paris and to

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00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 3: the priests and late people are involved in that work.

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00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 3: And you know, frank society is very ecularistic, and now

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00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 3: what we're seeing is people are not happy with that.

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00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 3: And then it's interesting that there are a number of

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00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 3: Muslims who when they come to France they encounter Christianity

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00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: for the first time with the freedom to actually study it,

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00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 3: and then they embrace the faith.

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00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 4: That's certainly happening in Germany. That's been noted.

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00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 3: So you know, in our own country, look to the diocese.

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00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 3: I think one of the most fruitful things is a

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00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 3: college apostolate and the kind of thing that Charlie Kirk

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00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 3: was doing and that you know, turning points doing which

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00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 3: is addressed moral issues that affect people's lives, and then

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00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 3: give them the opportunity in parishes they think parish is

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00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 3: near college campus is like here in New York at NYU.

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00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 3: You're very familiar with that, Raymond. We have a great

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00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 3: group of Dominican priests who are bringing many young people

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00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 3: to mass into sacramental life. So you know, it's not

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Speaker 3: that hard a formula. Preach the gospel, be visibly present,

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00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 3: love the church, be happy with what we're doing.

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Speaker 4: It's going to attract.

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00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,919
Speaker 2: People, challenge them and speak to them in their need.

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Speaker 2: And it always works.

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Speaker 1: It just always works because it's God's work. Okay, gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: grateful to you as always. Subscribe to the Royal Grande

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00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: Show on YouTube or a Royal Grande Podcast wherever you

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00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: get your podcasts on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray.

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Speaker 1: Until the Posse rides again, Stay the course, follow the light.

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Speaker 2: I'm Raiming Royal. We'll see you next time. Bye guys.

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Speaker 1: A Royal Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts

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00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,839
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00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:44,600
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