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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Welcome to Steph you missed in
Speaker 1: history class from how Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and
Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly from and I'm tra
Speaker 1: and we are still in the Halloween season, which makes
Speaker 1: me happy in my dark little heart, and I accidentally
Speaker 1: started a witch theme, but that's not gonna last. Just
Speaker 1: the two witch episodes of this one and the Bell Witch,
Speaker 1: and the Bell Witch really doesn't even count in that regard.
Speaker 1: But today's episode is legitimately about which trials uh and
Speaker 1: actual accusations of witchcraft and Europe's witchcraft trials spanned three centuries,
Speaker 1: from roughly fourteen fifty to seventeen fifty, but it was
Speaker 1: really during the late sixteenth and seventeenth centuries that the
Speaker 1: practice of trying people as witches was most fervent, and
Speaker 1: from about fifteen seventy to sixteen eighty. It's estimated, and
Speaker 1: this is a pretty wide uh gap of where the
Speaker 1: estimate falls, that between forty thousand and sixty thousand people
Speaker 1: across Europe were tried for sorcery of some form and
Speaker 1: most of them were found guilty and put to death.
Speaker 1: I've seen the fraction of like approximately two thirds, but
Speaker 1: it's hard because there wasn't great record keeping to identify
Speaker 1: exactly how many lost their lives because of this in
Speaker 1: one particular town. Uh. This is an episode heavy in
Speaker 1: Norwegian words, which I have no doubt I will butcher. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: even even having looked at pronunciations for them, a lot
Speaker 1: of the phonemes are not used in English, and so
Speaker 1: replicating them, yeah, it's a stretch. So no upfront that
Speaker 1: we will probably butcher it, and we mean no disrespect
Speaker 1: to the Norwegian language. Our mouths just will not do it.
Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about Varda, which is a
Speaker 1: fishing village. It was known as Norway's witch capital, and
Speaker 1: it was the site of a long series of quite
Speaker 1: brutal inquests. And there were generally two different kinds of
Speaker 1: witchcraft trials in Norway through this time period. There were
Speaker 1: isolated trials where one person was brought before the court
Speaker 1: and tried for sorcery, uh, like, just one person at
Speaker 1: a time would pop up and seem suspicious. And then
Speaker 1: there were panics where groups of people were tried in
Speaker 1: rapid succession in a very short period of time. And
Speaker 1: whereas the isolated trials had more to do with an
Speaker 1: individual person practicing witchcraft or some sort of sorcery, these
Speaker 1: panics were driven by the idea that demons were involved
Speaker 1: usually and that groups of which is we're consorting with
Speaker 1: the devil. So today we're going to talk about two
Speaker 1: of the panics that took place in Varda, Norway. Uh.
Speaker 1: And first we're going to give you a little bit
Speaker 1: of geographical context about the area. So Varda sits in
Speaker 1: Finnmark County, is Norway's only town that's in the Arctic
Speaker 1: climate zone and offers views of the Norwegian Russian Arctic.
Speaker 1: It's a really small coastal village. There are fewer than
Speaker 1: d inhabitants. It's Northern Norway's oldest town, with settlements dating
Speaker 1: back as far as nine thousand years and in the
Speaker 1: hundreds both a church and Varta fortress were built there
Speaker 1: and the town sort of grew up around primarily the fortress.
Speaker 1: And despite the brutal weather, the fishing along the coast
Speaker 1: of finn Mark was plentiful and the location offered really
Speaker 1: really um lucrative trade opportunities even today. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is remote. Its relative isolation is one of the reasons
Speaker 1: that finn Mark's witch trials were so expedient. Copenhagen, which
Speaker 1: under Danish rule was Norway's capital, was far enough away
Speaker 1: that the local authorities of finn Mark basically got to
Speaker 1: act independently. There was such a big geographical distance from
Speaker 1: any higher authority that the decisions to execute witches were
Speaker 1: basically made with total conviction, and then the sentences were
Speaker 1: carried out without hesitation. There was no like Norwegian h
Speaker 1: version of of like the Department of Justice over seeing
Speaker 1: the witch trial situation in Finnmark correct, But the directives
Speaker 1: to to prosecute, which is came from very high because
Speaker 1: during some of this time from sixty the ruler of
Speaker 1: the Danish Norwegian Kingdom was King Christian the fourth, and
Speaker 1: he had an agenda when it came to witches. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I should say they're that like even if there had
Speaker 1: been an equivalent of the Justice department overseeing the witch
Speaker 1: trial situation, it would not have had the effect of
Speaker 1: preventing the execution of witches. And the officials of the
Speaker 1: crown at this time, who served under Christian the fourth,
Speaker 1: we're basically charged with the task of ridding the country
Speaker 1: of witches, and they were very committed to this job.
Speaker 1: So it's not surprising that there was a level of
Speaker 1: comfort in acting with this complete authority. In cases of
Speaker 1: witchcraft at the local level. From the late sixteenth century
Speaker 1: into the seventeenth century, Varda, which is a small village,
Speaker 1: as we said, stage a hundred and four different trials
Speaker 1: and in nine documented cases the accused was found guilty
Speaker 1: and put to death either by burning or by torture.
Speaker 1: Most of these happened in clusters where many people were
Speaker 1: prosecuted over very short periods of time, and the numbers
Speaker 1: here get really interesting because during the time of these
Speaker 1: witch hunts, less than one percent of Norway's population lived
Speaker 1: in the Finnmark area where these trials took place, but
Speaker 1: this remote fishing community was home to thirty one of
Speaker 1: the witch executions in Norway, so disproportionately large numbers of
Speaker 1: people were being charged and punished by death for being witches.
Speaker 1: In finn Mark there were one d eleven women and
Speaker 1: twenty four men accused of sorcery. Of thee put to
Speaker 1: death seventy seven where women in fourteen were men and
Speaker 1: the Sami people, which is an indigenous Scandinavian culture which
Speaker 1: still exists today, were some of the first to be
Speaker 1: targeted in this witch panic. They had been the for
Speaker 1: known people to live in Finnmark, but as that area colonized,
Speaker 1: they became the minority. Approximately eighty percent of those accused
Speaker 1: of witchcraft and finn Mark were Norwegian were Sami. When
Speaker 1: considering gender, though these numbers skew in a totally different way.
Speaker 1: Of the twenty four men who were accused of witchcraft
Speaker 1: in the area, sixteen were from the Sami people. At
Speaker 1: least thirteen of those, sixteen were found guilty and executed,
Speaker 1: and that disparity in proportions is likely do according to
Speaker 1: historian live Helene Williamson, who is kind of an expert
Speaker 1: on this area of study, to the fact that Sami
Speaker 1: men in particular had a reputation for sorcery throughout Europe,
Speaker 1: and this is linked probably to some of their cultural practices.
Speaker 1: For example, uh, they used this, uh they would do
Speaker 1: this ritual where they used run drums where they were
Speaker 1: basically kind of doing chance and people went, oh, that
Speaker 1: must be evil. It wasn't. It's just part of their culture.
Speaker 1: And in sixteen o nine, King Christian the fourth wrote
Speaker 1: a letter to his district governors that they should persecute
Speaker 1: Sami sorcerers without mercy, and that really catalyzed finn Mark's
Speaker 1: witch hunting phase. So while the trials of the seventeenth
Speaker 1: century might have primarily affected Norwegian women, it does appear
Speaker 1: that bias against the Sami people really started things. In
Speaker 1: the early sixteen hundreds, Sami were targeted more frequently, and
Speaker 1: then the trials transitioned to focus on the women of
Speaker 1: finn Mark, and part of the mindset that led to
Speaker 1: this witch panic was the idea common in the sixteenth
Speaker 1: and seventeen centuries that the far north of the European continent,
Speaker 1: including the coast of Norway, was sort of home to
Speaker 1: the devil. This idea appears to have been born of
Speaker 1: a tangle of ideologies and fears. For one, although Christianity
Speaker 1: had spread throughout Europe, there were still people, including those
Speaker 1: in the northern fringes, who didn't practice it, which drew
Speaker 1: a lot of suspicion from the Church did sationally. This
Speaker 1: was and still is a place where the climate can
Speaker 1: be incredibly punishing, and that stormy nature was attributed to sorcery.
Speaker 1: The icy cold winds from the north were believed to
Speaker 1: originate at the devil's home and to be a conveyance
Speaker 1: of the devil's will of sorcery and of evil spirits.
Speaker 1: And these spirits, of course, specialized in nautical dark magic.
Speaker 1: And these were not just locally held ideas. Many areas
Speaker 1: of Europe, including France, England, Sweden, Germany and Scotland, were
Speaker 1: homes of people who believed that Norway was virtually riddled
Speaker 1: with witches, and the Mountain of Dolmen, which sat between
Speaker 1: two fishing villages, was believed to be the site of
Speaker 1: the entrance to a tunnel that went directly to Hell,
Speaker 1: and a cave within that mountain was reportedly the genesis
Speaker 1: point for various demons who then spread from there throughout
Speaker 1: the European continent. So we're about to get into these panics,
Speaker 1: but first we're going to pause for a quick word
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Speaker 1: dot com slash history. So back to finn Mark in
Speaker 1: the sixteen twenties. As with any of history's witchcraft persecution episodes,
Speaker 1: sorcery was often the scapegoat for difficult or tragic events
Speaker 1: that happened in any community, and finn Mark experienced a
Speaker 1: really terrible storm one Christmas early on in the seventeenth century.
Speaker 1: So the unexpected sixteen seventeen Christmas Eve storm hit when
Speaker 1: sixteen boats from Varda and seven boats from uh Kaiberg.
Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm saying that terribly wrong, so I apologize.
Speaker 1: We're all at sea and ten of those boats capsized
Speaker 1: and forty fishermen were drowned. Struggling to cope with the
Speaker 1: loss of so many of the villages men, at one time,
Speaker 1: members of the community started to point to witchcraft is
Speaker 1: the cause of this tragedy. The population of both villages
Speaker 1: combined was less than three hundred people, so forty deaths
Speaker 1: really did have a massive impact on the community. And
Speaker 1: this incident eventually catalyzed a piece of legislation that allowed
Speaker 1: for mass prosecution, specifically in the charge of witchcraft. And
Speaker 1: it actually took a long time to enact that law
Speaker 1: and get it up and running. While it was first
Speaker 1: introduced in October sixteen seventeen, it really wasn't enforced until
Speaker 1: sixteen twenty. This ability meant that there was one of
Speaker 1: those instances where a lot of people, both men and women,
Speaker 1: faced charges of witchcraft and were found guilty. So in
Speaker 1: January of sixty one, during the anti sorcery proceed dings,
Speaker 1: a woman appeared at the trials and claimed that witches
Speaker 1: had indeed tied knots in the fishing nets and cast
Speaker 1: spells on them. Her name was Elsa Knutes daughter, and
Speaker 1: she detailed how a group of witches had tied three
Speaker 1: knots in a piece of string. They had cursed the
Speaker 1: knots and then spit on them, and then as those
Speaker 1: knots were untied, that curse was activated and the sea
Speaker 1: consequently claimed the lives of those fishermen. She herself was
Speaker 1: accused of witchcraft and was thrown into the sea to
Speaker 1: see if she floated. This is all too common and
Speaker 1: pretty foolish practice. The thinking was that the water, which
Speaker 1: was believed to be a sacred element, would repel evil,
Speaker 1: which was why which is floated. Elsa floated, dooming herself
Speaker 1: to a guilty verdict, and then she was put to death.
Speaker 1: In February of one another woman on Lar's daughter, testified
Speaker 1: before the court, and initially she refused to speak, and
Speaker 1: she was, like Elsa, thrown into the sea for the
Speaker 1: water test. But after this test began, she readily confessed,
Speaker 1: and this was framed at the time as the water
Speaker 1: test having released her from the devil's spell. She claimed
Speaker 1: that when she had been questioned earlier, the devil had
Speaker 1: silenced her tongue, and when she did speak, she said
Speaker 1: that she had met with the devil on Christmas Eve
Speaker 1: of sixteen seventeen. She went on to say that she
Speaker 1: had that evening flown through the air alongside the devil,
Speaker 1: and that he had taken her from one village to
Speaker 1: another where a total of forty witches had gathered to
Speaker 1: celebrate the Sabbath. After these events, she went back to
Speaker 1: her home. Mari Jorgan's daughter also testified, and she said
Speaker 1: that the devil had visited her on Christmas Eve and
Speaker 1: asked if she would serve him, and then took her
Speaker 1: to the home of Kirsty Soren's daughter. Kirsty, according to
Speaker 1: Marie's testimony, cast a spell on her that transformed her
Speaker 1: into a raven, enabling her to quickly make the journey
Speaker 1: to the gathering where the not curse was performed. Marie
Speaker 1: gave added information that a similar Christmas Eve Sabbath had
Speaker 1: happened in the time between the sixteen seventeen tragedy in
Speaker 1: the sixty one trials on Christmas Eve sixteen twenty and
Speaker 1: Kirsty Soren's daughter figured prominently in a lot of the testimony.
Speaker 1: She was characters characterized by others on trial as the
Speaker 1: leader of the group, and she was also one of
Speaker 1: the last women who testified in the sixty one trials,
Speaker 1: and she had witnessed how things had played out for
Speaker 1: those that had faced the court before her. Under threat
Speaker 1: of torture, she confirmed what the other women had said
Speaker 1: about their rituals, dooming herself to be burned at the stake.
Speaker 1: During her court appearance, Kristie names two men who had
Speaker 1: also participated in the rituals while men were tried for
Speaker 1: witchcraft in Norway during all this time. Neither of the
Speaker 1: men that she named were formally accused. But if legal
Speaker 1: records of later trials are taken at face value, because
Speaker 1: there there are records of all of these proceedings that
Speaker 1: are apparently pretty well um maintained, they're in pretty good shape.
Speaker 1: But they are they're literally like on file. Uh they're
Speaker 1: in Norway, so they're not online or anything, but they
Speaker 1: basically like lay out as though this this is a
Speaker 1: legal document. These are legal proceedings all of these things
Speaker 1: that we're talking about today, So there is a record
Speaker 1: of all of these trials uh and if they are
Speaker 1: taking at face value, there were still practicing, which is
Speaker 1: in finn Mark for decades after the many deaths of
Speaker 1: the sixty one trials, and while more than ten women
Speaker 1: were put to death in sixteen twenty one, a series
Speaker 1: of trials in the sixteen sixties would claim even more lives.
Speaker 1: In late sixteen sixty two, more than thirty were accused
Speaker 1: of sorcery in a series of trials that played out
Speaker 1: into sixteen sixty three. Among the accused were not just
Speaker 1: adult women, but also young girls under the age of twelve,
Speaker 1: and most of the testimonies in this case were confessions
Speaker 1: that were tortured out of women uh and threatened out
Speaker 1: of children who said that they had met and celebrated
Speaker 1: with the devil at Domain, which we mentioned earlier. During
Speaker 1: the trial, several of the accused of that they had
Speaker 1: traveled Doman's pathway to Hell and that it was a
Speaker 1: long black valley with a boiling lake at the bottom.
Speaker 1: And one of the children victimized in these trials was
Speaker 1: Ingeborg Iver's daughter, who was found guilty of sorcery because
Speaker 1: of her association with two women and another girl and
Speaker 1: their Christmas Eve sixteen sixty two activities. So that day
Speaker 1: Iver's daughter and a woman named Solvinil's daughter were actually
Speaker 1: in custody for suspected witchcraft. They were imprisoned at Vardahoo's fortress,
Speaker 1: but according to testimony given before the court, they turned
Speaker 1: into cats, escaped the fortress and met with the devil
Speaker 1: outside the gates, and then the devil took them to
Speaker 1: one of these witch meetings, and it's there that they
Speaker 1: met the other woman and girl that were involved in
Speaker 1: this particular accusation in the testimony, and after much carousing
Speaker 1: and celebrating, the devil then returned them to the fortress
Speaker 1: Ingeborg had the unhappy distinct and of being the first
Speaker 1: child accused of witchcraft and fin mark when she appeared
Speaker 1: at her trial on January sixty three. Her exact age
Speaker 1: is unknown, but she was described in court records as
Speaker 1: quote a little girl. Her mother had already been burned
Speaker 1: for witchcraft, and she had said that her mother taught
Speaker 1: her witchcraft by giving her a tainted bowl of milk.
Speaker 1: There was this perception at the time that witchcraft was
Speaker 1: conveyed often through tainted food or drink, and that's how
Speaker 1: you you passed it on from one generation to the next.
Speaker 1: And then the devil, after she had had this tainted milk,
Speaker 1: the devil was conjured by her mother in the form
Speaker 1: of a black dog, and that dog bit her repeatedly.
Speaker 1: And this same sort of narrative was described by the
Speaker 1: other five girls as well, being given like a tainted
Speaker 1: usually milk and then this black dog devil coming and
Speaker 1: and sort of attacking them as a form of trial.
Speaker 1: And while to the court at the time, uh this
Speaker 1: may have indicated truthfulness, each earl's testimony validated what had
Speaker 1: come before because they were pretty consistent, but it also
Speaker 1: suggests that perhaps they had simply heard the same tale
Speaker 1: over and over from somewhere, And we're going to get
Speaker 1: to a possible source of that tale in just a moment.
Speaker 1: We're also going to go into a bit more detail
Speaker 1: about the Vardas Fortress and some of the people who
Speaker 1: were held there as captives. But before we do, we
Speaker 1: are going to stop one more time for a very
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Speaker 1: that holding situation that we mentioned before, the break in
Speaker 1: Varde Hoo's fortress, which you will also sometimes see translated
Speaker 1: as vardehs varde host Castle was where most of the
Speaker 1: torture used to illicit confessions took place. And there was
Speaker 1: this single room called the witches Hole uh where sort
Speaker 1: of these torturous events happened. And while the use of
Speaker 1: torture was technically illegal before a sentence was passed on
Speaker 1: a prisoner, it was still used both before the sentence
Speaker 1: to gain confessions and then after sentencing there would be
Speaker 1: more torture to produce names of accomplices. One of the
Speaker 1: interesting factors in this panic is the influence of two people,
Speaker 1: a husband and a wife, on the confessions of the accused.
Speaker 1: This pair, Ambrosius Rhodius and and Frieder's daughter Rosas, had
Speaker 1: been imprisoned near modern day Oslo before being moved to
Speaker 1: vardahos Flortress. Ambrosius was an astrologer and a physician who
Speaker 1: was considered politically dangerous after having made some accurate predictions
Speaker 1: about military conflicts and his wife, Anne, who was the
Speaker 1: granddaughter of King Frederick the Second, had some sort of
Speaker 1: serious argument with political figures in their hometown. So yeah,
Speaker 1: they were moved to Vardejus because they were considered basically
Speaker 1: enemies of the state at that point. Because the fortress
Speaker 1: was kind of crowded in the sixteen sixties panic, at
Speaker 1: least one of the children imprisoned there shared quarters with
Speaker 1: the Rhodeus couple, and additionally, Anne had a key to
Speaker 1: the witch's whole, and it's documented that Anne spoke with
Speaker 1: both the women and girls who were being held in
Speaker 1: the fortress awaiting trial, and that she talked at length
Speaker 1: with them about demonology and that she encouraged their confessions.
Speaker 1: On the up side, all six of the little girls
Speaker 1: involved in the sixteen sixty two to sixteen sixty three
Speaker 1: panic were acquitted on the grounds that they were too
Speaker 1: young to be held accountable for their actions and that
Speaker 1: they had undoubtedly been influenced by the adult which is
Speaker 1: around them. And over the course of the sixteen sixties
Speaker 1: series of accusations and trials, we mentioned that thirty people
Speaker 1: had been accused. Two women died while being tortured for
Speaker 1: information before they could be sentenced and twenty others were sentenced,
Speaker 1: found guilty and burned at the stake. In twenty eleven,
Speaker 1: the country of Norway made a significant gesture of apology
Speaker 1: and recognition of the people known to have been executed
Speaker 1: for witchcraft. Peter Zumthor, an architect from Switzerland, and Louise Bourgeois,
Speaker 1: a French American artist, worked together to design a memorial
Speaker 1: for the lives that were lost. So this student set
Speaker 1: memorial sits on a piece of remote coastline on the
Speaker 1: Barren Sea, believed to be the site of many of
Speaker 1: the executions and the architect's contribution to the work, which
Speaker 1: is titled Memory Hall, looks like a hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: eight yard or a hundred and forty five meter long
Speaker 1: corridor built at the edge of the sea, but instead
Speaker 1: of exterior walls, it has an open, cross hatched frame.
Speaker 1: That frame, which is made of pines, supports a tunnel
Speaker 1: like silk cocoon, and then within the fabric tunnel is
Speaker 1: a hallway with oak floors. Within the interior are ninety
Speaker 1: one lamps and each of them illuminates a window that
Speaker 1: represents one of the executed and an engraving dedicated to
Speaker 1: one of the people killed for witchcraft, including the testimony
Speaker 1: that was used against them. The second part of the memorial,
Speaker 1: which can be entered by visitors once they have passed
Speaker 1: through that long type memorial corridor, is Bourgeoise Creation, and
Speaker 1: it's entitled The Damned, the Possessed, and the Beloved. And
Speaker 1: this element is a black glass room and inside there
Speaker 1: is a chair in the center that burns continuously and
Speaker 1: there are three mirrors mounted above it to create the
Speaker 1: illusion of the space being consumed in fire. So it's
Speaker 1: kind of a unique thing. I can't I don't know
Speaker 1: of many other countries that have done anything like this.
Speaker 1: It's quite beautiful. There's some really good pictures online and
Speaker 1: we will have links to those in the show notes.
Speaker 1: But it's an interesting testament to uh, how things have
Speaker 1: changed in their their efforts to kind of they obviously
Speaker 1: cannot fix what has gone before, but to at least
Speaker 1: acknowledge the wrongs that were done and and how misguided
Speaker 1: the attempts to rid the country of evil through witchcraft
Speaker 1: trials were. So that's the the varnto witch trials, Oh,
Speaker 1: which tis like people have such a fascination with which
Speaker 1: trials but they're depressing. They're so depressing they are. It
Speaker 1: breaks my heart if you if you read about you know,
Speaker 1: these little girls, children that were being forced to testify,
Speaker 1: sometimes alongside their mothers and sometimes after their mothers had
Speaker 1: already been killed, and it's there's such brutality to it,
Speaker 1: and it's rough. Do you have some listener mail that's less?
Speaker 1: I do. It's actually fantastic. Yeah, it's very upbeaten, peppy
Speaker 1: if you're me especially. It is from our listener Janet,
Speaker 1: and it is two postcards. I have a one of
Speaker 1: two and a two of two. She says, Hi again,
Speaker 1: Holly and Tracy. I sent you ladies a card from
Speaker 1: Venice recently. But when I got to London and saw
Speaker 1: what the special exhibition at the Victorian Albert was undressed
Speaker 1: a history of underwear, I knew I had to send
Speaker 1: you postcards about it or two. As it turns out,
Speaker 1: I have a nagging feeling you may have already gotten
Speaker 1: list mail about this, but just in case, I'm sending
Speaker 1: uh some myself. This Krineline definitely made me realize afresh
Speaker 1: why they talk about making designing underwear in terms of engineering.
Speaker 1: And it's a lovely photograph of a cage bustle like
Speaker 1: a cage krinoline. UM. And then the second one she says,
Speaker 1: hello again, ladies. I couldn't decide between this postcard and
Speaker 1: the one with the cage crinoline, so I'm sending them both.
Speaker 1: I knew a lot about the content covered in the
Speaker 1: Undressed exhibission thanks to my own dabbling in the history
Speaker 1: of fashion and costume design, as well as Holly's Bloomers
Speaker 1: and Beyond podcast, so it was really cool to see
Speaker 1: some examples of the underwear itself, especially of course it's
Speaker 1: etcetera for pregnant women. No postcards of those. Thank you
Speaker 1: again for all your great work. So the second one
Speaker 1: that she sent is UM a photograph of men's underwear
Speaker 1: from UH. It's believed Britain in the nineteen fifties, and
Speaker 1: it's just so sort of structured and uncasual in comparison
Speaker 1: to modern underwear, but you see the seeds of what
Speaker 1: modern underwear is like. So they you, thank you, Thank you, Uh, Janet.
Speaker 1: These are just lovely and I will say um. A
Speaker 1: friend of the show, Brian Young, went to see this
Speaker 1: exhibit and very sweetly brought me back an exhibition catalog,
Speaker 1: so I'm pretty much in heaven. I'm bummed that I'm
Speaker 1: not going to get to see it in person, but
Speaker 1: I'm very delighted and fortunate, and that many people have
Speaker 1: sent me materials from it. I feel very yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, who doesn't want to look at pregnancy course?
Speaker 1: It's I know, I do. I love all of this
Speaker 1: stuff anyway, So if you would like to write to us,
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