1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: You know what I think. I think every family has secrets, secrets. 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: Some are big, really big secrets, and some are a 3 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: little and some, once the revealed, are huge life changing. 4 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: Today's guest, I love someone with Delilah discovered quite by 5 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: accident that her family had been keeping one of those 6 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: huge life changing type of secrets. In Danny Shapiro and 7 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: her husband sent some DNA testing kits in for analysis. 8 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: It was supposed to be just a little thing, a 9 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: whimsical little thing. Her husband was doing it. Danny, who 10 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: is a very successful author, thought I'll do it too, 11 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: But the surprising results evoked some serious emotions that could 12 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: be labeled anything but whimsical. What Danny, a self proclaimed 13 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: daddy's girl, learned was it the man who raised her, 14 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: the man she adored, could not possibly have been her 15 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: biological father. Imagine that some of you have found that 16 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: out in the same way. As a matter of fact, 17 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: at this time when Danny discovered it, both her parents 18 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: had passed away, so when covering the mystery was up 19 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: to her, there was simply no one left to ask. 20 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: As an author of several nonfiction books, and now with 21 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: curiosity and all these jumbles of emotions, Danny, alongside her 22 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: journalistic husband, set to work. It took her just three 23 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: short days to unlock the truth of her conception and 24 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: her identifying her biological father. Danny shared her story and 25 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: found that there are many people who have uncovered similar 26 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: findings from these beginnings. Her podcast series Family Secrets was conceived. 27 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: Season three debuts on Thursday, February six. Family Secrets features 28 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: real life stories of individuals sharing facts that maybe DNA 29 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: and genealogy research has revealed, presented in the kindest and 30 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 1: most compassionate of ways. Danny also has a new book out, Inheritance, 31 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: about her own discovery and the journey of self it 32 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: took her on. She's joining us today to talk about 33 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: this journey. Right after I shared this important information with 34 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: you about my podcast sponsor, The Home Depot. If you're 35 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: listening to this podcast on your smartphone, you know just 36 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: how many apps there are for downloading. The Home Depot 37 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: has a new one, a new app version that makes 38 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: getting what you need for your home so quick. One 39 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: of the most popular new functions the image search. Snap 40 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: a picture with the home Depot app and find what 41 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: you need. The app recognizes the item you need replaced 42 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: and tells you where you can find it in your 43 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: neighborhood home Depot, right down to the aisle and the 44 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: shelf in the store. While you're listening to this podcast, 45 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: download the new home Depot app. It'll come in handy 46 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: when you need it most. With me on the phone 47 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: is Danny Shapiro, author of a number of books. Her 48 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: latest is called Inheritance, a memoir of genealogy, paternity, and love. 49 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: I love the cover of it. Is that one of 50 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: your dresses as a child, Thank you? It was that 51 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: was address that I wore as a flower girl and 52 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: a cousin's wedding. So it's really meaningful to me that 53 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: it's on the cover. Very ethereal. Yeah, Like it's got 54 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: like a blithe spirit feel to it. When I picked 55 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: up the book and saw the cover, I thought, I 56 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: bet this was one of her dresses, without ever delving 57 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: into the inside, just judging a book by its cover. 58 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: I like the cover. I'm glad. I'm glad. I really 59 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: it was so important to me. I mean, the book 60 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: to me is so much about love and there's a 61 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of warmth in it, and I wanted I mean, 62 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: we do judge books by their covers. So I wanted 63 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: there to be that sense of just being about family 64 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: and history. And you know, there's a reason why the 65 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: word love is in the subtitles. To me, all about 66 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: love ultimately, In fact, I would say I'm not that 67 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: far into it. I'm only up to a hundred and fifteen. 68 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: But so far everything I've read is dripping with love. 69 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: I would have started it with a memoir of love 70 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: and just left it there, I think, thank you. So 71 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: let's kind of start at the beginning. Born and raised 72 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: Orthodox jew Yeah, I was raised in New Jersey, just 73 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: outside of New York City, and my father's family in 74 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: particular were a observant, you know, very religious, devout family, 75 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: and my mother's family was less so. But you know, 76 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: both of my parents were were Jewish, and my mother, 77 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: when she married my father, agreed to raise any children 78 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: that they would have in that religious observant way. So 79 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: that is how I was raised as an only child 80 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: in Hillside, New Jersey. And the whole time, just by 81 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: the stories I've read, you were a daddy's girl. I 82 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: was a total daddy's girl. I just adored my dad. Um, 83 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: he was really you know, the much warmer of my 84 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: two parents, the much more like sort of physically affectionate 85 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: with a huge hugger. And you know, my mom just 86 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: kind of didn't have those particular kinds of instincts. So yeah, 87 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: you know, I've heard it said if you have one 88 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: adult or you know, preferably a parent, but any really 89 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: anyone in your childhood who really gives you that kind 90 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: of love, you know, that's what saves us. I've heard 91 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: that said, and I've shared that truth over and over 92 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: and over again on the air off the air because 93 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: I work a lot with kids in foster care, and 94 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: I say, you know, if a kid has just one 95 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: parent or one person who's consistent with love, with unconditional love, 96 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: that changes the trajectory of a life. It's so true. 97 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it could be a grandparent, or a teacher, 98 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: or a mentor or a neighbor. It doesn't have to 99 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: be someone in the immediate family. But it's just I 100 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: was always I mean, that was my dad for me. 101 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: But I was also always on the search. I was always. 102 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: I think one saving grace for me was that I 103 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: recognized my angels when they appeared. I recognized my teachers 104 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: and all through my life. Um, but certainly. I mean 105 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: I lost my dad when I was twenty three, but 106 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: certainly for those first twenty three years he was that 107 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: for me, and afterwards too. He's always been there for 108 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: me all through my life, you know, to this day. 109 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: So growing up Orthodox community, blonde hair, fair skin, pink cheeks. 110 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: You start your novels saying you were always staring at 111 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: the in the mirror as a little girl, looking for something, 112 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: but you didn't even know what you were looking for, 113 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: just looking deep into your eyes to to unlock this mystery. 114 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: Did you ever feel like that story of the ugly 115 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: duckling where the the swan doesn't quite fit in with 116 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: the ducks. Yeah, I absolutely did, because I was told 117 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: every single day of my life, really literally every day. 118 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: This is not an exaggeration. I was told, you don't 119 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: look Jewish. It doesn't you know, your mother must have 120 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: had an affair with the Swedish milk command or you know, 121 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: you're sure you're Jewish, or when I was older, it 122 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: became because Shapiro is I'm fond of saying Piro was 123 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: like the Smith of Jews. Yes, yes it is. You know, 124 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: it's a dead giveaway, and people would say, so is 125 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: your husband, the Shapiro. You know, once I was married, 126 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: you know, once I was a grown up. So every 127 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: day of my life I was, in one way or 128 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: another told that I didn't look like who I knew 129 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: myself to be. UM. So when when that happens when 130 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: you're a child, it really contributes to making you feel 131 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: like you don't belong. I felt, I felt like something 132 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: didn't add up. I think it probably is what turned 133 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: me into a writer. You know, from the time that 134 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: I was a teenager, I was always just scribbling and 135 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: scribbling in notebooks and you know, you know, under the 136 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: cover's late at night writing trying to like dig for 137 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: something that I didn't even know was there. But I 138 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: just knew that something didn't add up. There was a 139 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: mystery that I couldn't solve, and and I think I 140 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: felt writing, in some way or another was helping me 141 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: to solve it. Well, I think you were born and 142 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: a writer. Just reading the little bit that I've read, 143 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: you were born a writer, But solving that mystery probably 144 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: propelled you into being a really good writer. M hmm, 145 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: I wondered, because you know, when I started writing, I 146 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: started writing novels, and then I turned to memoirs. You know, 147 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: I turned to telling stories that were out of my 148 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: own life and shaping stories out of my own experience. 149 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: And you know, knowing what I know today, you know 150 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: from where I sit now, that makes a lot of sense. 151 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: I know why that was the case. Um, it was 152 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: the case because I was after some sort of elusive 153 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: truth that I couldn't get at. So fifty plus years, 154 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: five decades, you live as Danny Shapiro, Jewish daughter, living 155 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: your life, married, had a child, and then your husband says, hey, 156 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: why don't we take this DNA test just for the 157 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: fun of it, And you didn't even really think of 158 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: it there was a big thing. I totally didn't think 159 00:09:58,040 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: of it as a big thing. In fact, I almost 160 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: didn't do it. I mean, he wanted to do it 161 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: just for sort of recreational reasons, and he just asked 162 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: me if I wanted to do it too. And I 163 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: think about that now because taking that DNA has changed 164 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: my entire life and my understanding of myself and of 165 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: my history. And if I hadn't done it, I just 166 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: never would have known. And it's so interesting because you know, 167 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: I have been a student of identity in some way 168 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: or another, all my life. And I've also been someone 169 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: who's always tried to tried and tried to make meaning 170 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: out of things I didn't understand. And you know, if 171 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: it's true what they say, some people believe that when 172 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: we pass away, we get a moment where we can 173 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: survey the whole thing and we can see everything that 174 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: we didn't know. And I think about that sometimes now 175 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: because if that, if that's the case, and if that 176 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: were me, and if I had never made the discovery 177 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: that I did, I would have just like knocked myself 178 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: upside the head at that moment and think I missed it. 179 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: I missed the whole thing, Delilah, Like I just missed um, 180 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: something so fundamental and essential about myself. And how many 181 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: other people have taken those same DNA tests and learned 182 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: truths that they had no clue of. Yeah, so I 183 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: can tell you. Actually, I mean, twenty six million people 184 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: in the last two years to have ordered these over 185 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: the counter DNA tests. It's become the most popular holiday 186 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: gift in America. Families are all giving these kids to 187 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: each other and then approximately two of people who take 188 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: these tests find out what's called it's actually has um 189 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: initials it's called an m p E, which is what 190 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: happened to me. It stands for not parent expected, and 191 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: in PE is kind of like an e MP, a 192 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: big bomb that goes off and doesn't damage the buildings, 193 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: but damages like everything inside your heart. We're going to 194 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: talk about the impact that truth bomb had on you, 195 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: that e MP right after this important message. So you 196 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: got your results back, that's right, I mean, I so, 197 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: so I I get my results back and I and 198 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: I discover in really pretty short order that my beloved 199 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: dad had not been my biological father, and that changed 200 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: both everything and nothing right, Like I remember saying to 201 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: my best friend a few weeks later, do you still 202 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: see me as the same person? I was in such 203 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: I was reeling, I was in such shock, and she 204 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: looked at me with such compassion, and she said, you 205 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: are the same person. You just didn't You just didn't 206 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: have all the information. But you, Danny, are the same person. 207 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: But now you have all of the pieces of the puzzle. 208 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: But you know I should say too that, I mean, 209 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: I now see my story and you know what I 210 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: discovered and the journey that I've been on, and that 211 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: I write about an inheritance. I see it as miraculous 212 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: because I had just enough clues to be able to 213 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: piece together the story of my identity. I mean, there 214 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: are so many people out there who never are able 215 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: to know. And it only took thirty six hours from 216 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: the moment that I realized that my dad had not 217 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: been my biological father until I found the man who 218 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: was thirty six hours with nothing more. I don't have 219 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: like great detective skills. It was just nothing more than 220 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: a couple of hunches and a little face block and 221 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: little googling and a couple of long ago conversations that 222 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: came back to me. Because I also think one of 223 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: the things about just all of us as human beings 224 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: is that when something's really important, like if we have 225 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: a conversation and we don't even know it's really important 226 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: at the time, if it's really important, something inside of 227 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: us kind of sits up and takes note and remembers it. 228 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: It's like an invisible tape recorder kind of goes off 229 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: and we are able to retain it whole. And that's 230 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: what happened to me. Um conversation I've had with my 231 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: mother literally thirty years earlier came back to me, and 232 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: it was full of clues. If I hadn't had that 233 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: conversation with my mother, I'd still be walking around going 234 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: I know my father wasn't my biological father, but I 235 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: don't know who was. And I'm never going to know 236 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: more about this story. Both of my parents have passed. 237 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: But your mom gave you that clue when she said 238 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: an institute in Philadelphia, that's right. And it was just 239 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: such a quote unquote, such an accident, right, such a 240 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: um unlikely thing that my mother would have let that slip. 241 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: But she used the word institute and she said Philadelphia. 242 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: And based just on that, I was able to put 243 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: together a big part of the story. And if I 244 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: hadn't had that, I would have looked at those results 245 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: and I would have made up You know, we all 246 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: we we make up stories all the time. We all 247 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: go through life that way, not just writers. We we 248 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: create narratives to make sense of the world around us 249 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: and to make sense of ourselves and to make sense 250 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: of our families. And if I had discovered that my 251 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: dad hadn't been my biological father, and I hadn't known 252 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: anything more about it, I would have had to assume 253 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: that my mother had an affair that would have been 254 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: the only thing that would have made any sense, and 255 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: it wouldn't have made any sense, but that's what I 256 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: would have assumed. And instead my mother let's slip that 257 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: my parents had trouble with fertility, trouble conceiving me, and 258 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: they had gone to an institute in Philadelphia. And because 259 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: of that, really, within minutes of making the discovery about 260 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: my dad, I knew what had happened, and I knew 261 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: that my biological father must have been a spun downer. 262 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: And that was the beginning of unraveling the mystery of 263 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: you know, couples. In those days, we're told never to 264 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: tell anyone, to keep it the biggest secret if they 265 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: made a baby in that way, to not tell their 266 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: own parents, to not tell their siblings. That was the 267 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: case with everything. I mean, that was the case with everything. 268 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: When when I was a teenager, I got in a 269 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: fight with my dad. My father and I were fighting 270 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: every day, every week, and I was sent to live 271 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: with my grandparents. And I was sobbing and crying and 272 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: I said to my grandma, my mother's mother, my maternal grandma, 273 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: I don't know why my dad hates me so much. 274 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: And she said sissy. He doesn't hate you. He's afraid 275 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: you're going to turn out just like he did. And 276 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: I said, I don't get that. He's a wonderful man. 277 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: He's successful, he's an engineer, he's smart, you know. And 278 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: I'm going on and on listing all my dad's great qualities. 279 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: And she said, your dad got a girl pregnant in 280 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: high school and he's afraid you're going to end up 281 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: in the same boat. Mm hmm. Wow. And just like 282 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: you described in your book when you looked at the 283 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: DNA results and realized, wait a minute, I just sat 284 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: there like and I was, what fourteen fifteen maybe sixteen, 285 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. And then she dropped the big bomb. 286 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: You can't tell anyone. I told you this. You can't 287 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: tell your mother, you can't tell your father, you can't 288 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: tell anyone. I told you this. Yeah, you know. I 289 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 1: have this podcast called Family Secrets in which I talked 290 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: to my guests about family secrets. And one of the 291 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: most heartbreaking things for me and so many of the 292 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: story is that the person who the secret was kept 293 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: from often ends up being thrust into the role of 294 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: being the secret keeper. And you know, it's like this 295 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: double whammy. It's like you find out something that you 296 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: were never supposed to know and it was hidden from you, 297 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: and then you have to hold it yourself. I don't 298 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: believe in keeping secrets like that. I don't either. I 299 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: have so many kids that are adopted, and you know, 300 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: in our generation when when you were adopted, you weren't 301 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: told that, you were never told that. You know, it 302 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: was all these big secrets and you weren't told who 303 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: your birth family was. Or I have a girlfriend who 304 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: got pregnant when she was a teenager and she never 305 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: got to know her baby, never got to bond with 306 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 1: her baby. They took her baby, they placed her baby 307 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: for adoption, and you don't talk about it. Well, that's 308 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: the amazing thing about now. The time that we're living 309 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: in now is because of the combination of this DNA 310 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: testing and the unintended consequences of the d n A testing, 311 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: which is that everybody's signing out. Everybody's signing like I. 312 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: I've been on the road since Inheritance came out in hardcover, 313 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: and everywhere I've gone there have been wall to wall 314 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: people and they are people with stories. And when it 315 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: started happening, it stunned me. I mean, I'm a writer. 316 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: I've been on book tour a bunch of times. I 317 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: had never experienced anything like this. And they were late 318 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: discovery adoptees who never knew they were adopted. They were many, 319 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: many people who had biological fathers who had been sperm donors, 320 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: or even now biological mothers who were egg donors. There 321 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: were lots of people from the adoptive community or adoptees. 322 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: There were, like the story you just told me, grown 323 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: women who as teenagers had put up a child for 324 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: adoption and then that child grows up and find them eventually, 325 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: or they find the child. There are men have always 326 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: had children they didn't know about like that, they literally 327 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: just never knew about you know, got to go pregnant 328 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: and then you know, just never knew about it. And 329 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 1: so there's like a reckoning going on because of all this, 330 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: and it's huge. From where I sit, it's it's epidemic, 331 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: and and I think that even though sometimes it's hard 332 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: and sometimes it's painful and it's kind of rocking a 333 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: lot of families, I also think it's great because it's 334 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: the end of the era of secrecy. It's the it's 335 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: the end of it. There can't be these kinds of 336 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: secrets anymore because everybody's finding out everything. Well, my sister 337 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: is the genealogist in our family. She loves genealogy. She 338 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: she could have a business just doing genealogy for people 339 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: because she's so good at it. I mean, she's just 340 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: really really good. I am not that detail oriented person. 341 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: I'm just not. And she pours over charts and graphs, 342 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: and she reads the census. She loves censuses, and she 343 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: reads the census takers comments from you know, decades gone by, 344 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: and holy molly, she dug up a lot of secrets 345 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: in our family. And I'm like, whoa, wow, because not that, 346 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, not that our family was perfect by any 347 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: stretch of the imagination, and we weren't religious, we weren't 348 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,239 Speaker 1: Orthodox or anything like that. But you grow up with 349 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: these concepts of these notions that you are who you are, 350 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: and then when you find out you you aren't who 351 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: you thought you were, it's it's bizarre, exactly. I mean. 352 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: I I felt, you know, like, you know, so interesting 353 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: for me as a writer, because I've always been digging 354 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: and suddenly it all made sense. But it was also 355 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: all this brand new, like it forced me to think 356 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: about what makes us us, Like what makes a family 357 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: of families doesn't matter? You know, the genes matter? Does 358 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: biology matter? You know, nature versus nurture. You know, there 359 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: was so much that I felt like, Wow, I am 360 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: getting the most extraordinary front row seat to all this. 361 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: Like I remember, you know, like you mentioned, I've like 362 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: stared at my face in the mirror as a child. 363 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: In the days after my discovery, and especially when I 364 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: identified my biological father, who I happened to look a 365 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: great deal like, I looked at my face in the mirror, 366 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: and for the first time I actually understood my face, 367 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: Like I understood why those people had all been saying 368 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: that all my life. I understood where I came from 369 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: in terms of the nature piece of it. And so 370 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: much of the journey for me was one that had 371 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: to do with you know, at the very beginning after 372 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: my discovery, well meaning people would say things to me like, well, 373 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: no matter what, your your father is still your father. 374 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: And at the beginning I had a really hard time 375 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm taking that in or even knowing what it meant, 376 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: because I had just discovered that in biological terms, he 377 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: wasn't and in all likelihood. My parents knew that and 378 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: had of course kept it a secret, and so I 379 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: had been raised with that secret at the center of 380 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: my life. And the journey was really one of and 381 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 1: this is one of the greatest gifts of this for me. 382 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: I had to really think about my parents, and I 383 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: had to think of them not as my parents, but 384 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: as people, as human beings who existed before me, and 385 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: who made choices and decisions based on their own desires 386 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: and their own histories, and the same. Of infertility in 387 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: those days, oh my goodness, like the shame of male 388 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: infertility was so tremendous that you couldn't even get a 389 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: doctor to say it existed. And there was so much 390 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: heartache that went into childlessness, not being able to have 391 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: a child. And what I came to feel was that 392 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: my dad was a hero. My books dedicated to him, 393 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: and that he was more, if anything more my dad 394 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: than he had been before, that he had done something 395 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: that was hard and heroic and sacrificial, absolutely sacrificial. I think, 396 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: you know. One of the very painful things for me 397 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: is I did come to say because my father was 398 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: a very sad guy, and I always felt his heart. 399 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: I always felt that he there was something at his 400 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: core that was was lonely and sad, and I had 401 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: a lot of thoughts about why that might be. But 402 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: then when I discovered what I did, I realized that 403 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: this contributed to that as well. That he knew he 404 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: wasn't my biological father and he could not have loved 405 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: any more. But I also think that he had a 406 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: sadness about that. Um. But in the end, you know, 407 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: I came to feel, you know, and I write this 408 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: towards the end of the book, that I come from 409 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: three people. That's pretty unusual. I I come from my mom, 410 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: who I was not close to and never never felt 411 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: connected to. But she's my mom. I checked, I did. 412 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: I lasted like a ninety year old cousin of hers 413 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: into like I got her kids to go, you know, 414 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 1: get her to spit into a plastic violence sends it away. 415 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: Because when something like this happens in your life, you 416 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: really need a tent pole somewhere. I just wanted to 417 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: I wanted to just be sure of something, so I know, 418 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: she's my mom. Um, my dad who raised me is 419 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: my dad and who loved me into being. And then 420 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: the man who was the anonymous no longer anonymous sperm 421 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: donor who was a medical student, you know, just making 422 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: his way to medical school and you know, picking up 423 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: a few dollars and doing something that might help a 424 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: family have a child. He's I come from him, you know, 425 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: I've come from him biologically. So I feel like I 426 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: really lucked out, Like I end up with even more 427 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: of a sense of solidity than I did before. I 428 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: think also because when we know the truth, which I 429 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: spent fifty four years not knowing, it really is true, 430 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: that the truth will set us free. It is profoundly 431 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: liberating to know the truth about something that was hidden 432 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: for so long. I love that. I love it is true. 433 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it was written for five thousand years ago. 434 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: The truth will set you free, and it's true. In 435 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 1: my circumstance, I couldn't. I couldn't process what my grandma 436 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: had told me. And I found out that my father 437 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: actually had two children. He married the woman, the girl 438 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: that got pregnant and had a daughter, and then she 439 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: got pregnant again and they separated and divorced. She had 440 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: a son, But my dad was never a part of 441 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: his life. He was a part of his little girl's 442 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: life for the first couple of years, and they made 443 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: an agreement to go their separate ways because she was 444 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: involved with somebody else, and that somebody else was raising 445 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: the children as his own, and so she and my 446 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: dad made an agreement that they would go their separate ways, 447 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: and that they would bury the truth, and that the 448 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: children would always believe they were their stepfather's biological children, 449 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: and that my father would go on with his life. 450 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: And like your dad, he had such an immense sadness 451 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: I believe a sadness that led to his early death 452 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: because he mourned that he grieved that, but he couldn't 453 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: couldn't talk about it, couldn't acknowledge it. And they lived 454 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: half an hour away mhm. So I was the one 455 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: that that actually called my my brother, my half brother 456 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: m hm. And he drove to my house the next weekend, 457 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: and when he got out of the car, I almost fainted. 458 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: Just like you described your sensation of seeing your biological 459 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: dad in in the video, with the same expressions and 460 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: the same hand movements, in the same pattern of conversation 461 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: out of the car stands a younger version of my father. 462 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: It was very weird. Oh, I have chilled. What made 463 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: you do it finally, you know, at well, Grandma had 464 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: seen an article again, this was my mother's mother had 465 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: seen an article in the local newspaper I'm from a 466 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: small town in Oregon, that he had graduated from a 467 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: trade school and had gotten a job, a good job 468 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: in Everett, Washington, which was only forty five minutes north 469 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: of me. And she cut out the article and she 470 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: mailed it to me, and she said, I think that 471 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: is your brother, because she had told me, you know, 472 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: years ago about my sister, and and seeing his picture, 473 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: I knew he was my brother. Um, and back then 474 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: you could just call, you know, the operator and get 475 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: a phone number, and they called him and that was that. 476 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 1: So I just wanted to put the pieces together. I 477 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: wanted to know the story. And I think mostly I 478 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: wanted to understand my dad because he was always so mysterious, 479 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: and I was trying to unlock that peace. Yeah, to 480 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: find a reason, to get at the reason beneath all 481 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: the behavior and the and the feelings and the energy. 482 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: Right then, I think, you know, I've been a student 483 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: of secrets probably all my life, and it sort of 484 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: threaded through all of my work, you know, Interestingly, given 485 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: what I didn't know. But one of the things that 486 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: I had real in the last two years because I'm thinking, 487 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: what does secrets haven't like holding a secret, keeping a secret, 488 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: burying a secret, Like what what what do secrets have 489 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: in common? And I think whenever there is a secret 490 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: that is held so closely, there's shame thrumming just beneath it. 491 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: We keep secrets because we're ashamed. We think no one 492 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: will understand or ashamed of our behavior, where we think 493 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: will be shunned off people new. And that's like it's 494 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: like the sea of shame. You know that these secrets 495 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: just bob along. And but the thing is what we 496 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: know now, and we know it. I mean, I think 497 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: there are still many many people who try to keep secrets, 498 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: but we know now that you can't just bury something 499 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: and really think like that it disappeared. Nothing disappears. It's there, 500 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: but it's I look back at both of my parents 501 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: now and I can see that so much of what 502 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: made them them and what formed them over the years 503 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: that we you know, walked the earth together, was formed 504 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:13,239 Speaker 1: around the um. It must have been so lonely for 505 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: each of them. I don't I don't think they ever 506 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: spoke about it. To each other ever again, I mean, 507 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: I'll never know, but I believe that they basically went 508 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: ahead and did this thing and then pretty much decided 509 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: that it had never happened and they were just gonna 510 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: get on with things. Um. And yet they have this blonde, 511 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: blue eyed, pink cheeked daughter who nobody can seem to 512 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,719 Speaker 1: fail to comment on how she doesn't look Jewish, And 513 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it was always always there. There 514 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: were probably things prodding and poking constantly, but that feeling 515 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: that you just what you describe your your your dad as. 516 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: I think when we keep secrets like that, it diminishes 517 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,479 Speaker 1: us ultimately, when we hold that darkness in and we 518 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: feel like we can't talk about it and we're blanketed 519 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: in shame, we wrap ourselves with that shame, and then 520 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: we have these fake personas, you know, especially now with 521 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: social media, where we you know, we crop and alter 522 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: and boost and change the shape of everything to look 523 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: like what we think it should look like when inside 524 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: we're just we feel unworthy, right right, absolutely, and then 525 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: we compare ourselves with other people's furnished you know images. 526 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's like a vicious it's a vicious cycle. Well, 527 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you've written the book. I'm glad that 528 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: you got to the bottom of your secret, as painful 529 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: as that was, but as healing as it is. Banned. 530 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: But I'm really, really glad Danny, that you're giving a 531 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: forum of voice to those you know, two percent of 532 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: people who find out guess what Dad wasn't dad or 533 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: mom wasn't mom, and are able to talk about it, 534 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: because the more we talk about it, the more you know. 535 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: I went on vacation a couple of years ago. So 536 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: one of my closest friends has an adopted daughter, and 537 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: it was in an open adoption, and the birth mom, 538 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: beautiful woman, was at a point in her life where 539 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: she could not parent to child, and so she made 540 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: the very loving, healthy decision to choose her child's mother, 541 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: who is my best friend. And I went on vacation 542 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and I took my god daughter, 543 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: the adopted child, all of my adopted children, and we 544 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: met her birth mom and spent a week on vacation together. 545 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: And she went for a walk on the beach and 546 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: I said, can I join you? Because I could tell 547 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: she needed some alone time. She said, yeah, please, and 548 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: we walked and she cried, she said. She said, being 549 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: able to talk about my experience openly and honestly and 550 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: without judgment is something I have not been able to 551 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: do in any setting, not with my husband, not with 552 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: my family, she said. But you and your kids talk 553 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: about it like you're talking about what's for dinner. Yeah. 554 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: That's a beautiful story, and you know it's it's making 555 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: me think that one thing I really want to get 556 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 1: across is that one of the things about my story 557 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: and what happened is that everybody tried to do the 558 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: right thing. What I mean by that is when I 559 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 1: reached out to my biological father. You know, seventy eight 560 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: year old man, retired physician living in the Pacific Northwest. 561 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: You know, he he must have opened his email one 562 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: day and expected to see an announcement from like, you know, 563 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: his golf club and um, you know, what's for lunch 564 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: or whatever, and instead he receives an email from a 565 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: complete stranger saying, I hope this won't come as too 566 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: much of a shock, but I think that you may 567 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: be my biological father. Right. I hear so many stories 568 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,439 Speaker 1: of families where this kind of thing is happening because 569 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: it's happening in hundreds of thousands of the families right now, 570 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: in one way or another. Where the first response, and 571 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: admittedly it was my biological father's first response too, but 572 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: he got past it. The first response is to feel threatened. 573 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: What do you want from me? What do you want? 574 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's like it's the ultimate like in the 575 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: other the stranger, you know, the interloper, what do you want? 576 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: And when people can get beyond that very sort of 577 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 1: primitive human impulse and actually make room for each other 578 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,439 Speaker 1: and for each other's experiences. I mean my biological father, 579 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: and he will never feel like he's not my dad, 580 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: but I do come from him and his kids, particularly 581 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: his daughter who is just only a few years younger 582 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: than I am, the daughter that he and his he 583 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: has three kids that he and his wife raised. They've 584 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: become we have a special relationship now, um, And it's 585 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: because there was this openness and this sense of who 586 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: are we to each other? Who do we want to 587 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: be to each other? And the you know what you're 588 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: describing with your goddaughter and her birth mother, or what 589 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: I see you know when I'm out on the road. 590 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: You know, just stories where half siblings find each other 591 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,919 Speaker 1: and then start getting together and having you know, sort 592 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: of meetups and families who have used donors or surrogates 593 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: all being able to gather together. It's like the opposite 594 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: of shame. It's celebrating all different forms and shapes of 595 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: what makes the family a family and how we you know, 596 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: how we move through this life together. You know that 597 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: that we're all, you know, more the same than we're 598 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: different inside. And how do we do that, you know, 599 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: with each other and with open and loving hearts. Well, 600 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: thank you for writing your book, Thank you for having 601 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: your podcast and giving people a place to bring their 602 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: stories and share their stories. Is we need to talk 603 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: about it? Absolutely true. You know. On my podcast we 604 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: have these highly produced episodes every season, but we also 605 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: have a pull free number eight number that people people 606 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: can call in and just record their stories. And one 607 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: of the things that has just been amazing is to 608 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: see how many stories pour in from people who some 609 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: of them are still very much keeping secrets, you know, 610 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: they're they're they're just sharing them on this line and 611 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 1: sometimes we you know, we include them in bonus episodes 612 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: and so they're being heard by you know, millions of people. Um, 613 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: but that desire to share is so powerful that it's 614 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: even something to pick up the phone and say, this 615 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: happened to me. I want to I want to share 616 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: what happened to me, or I want to share what 617 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: happened in my family. Okay. The book is Inheritance by 618 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro, a memoir of genealogy, paternity, and mostly love. 619 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: Uh and and I would encourage anyone to read it 620 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: that has ever questioned their inheritance, but but also anybody 621 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 1: to read it because it's so well written. You're a 622 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: wonderful writer. And I'm halfway through it and I'm loving it, 623 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: so I'm going to finish it before the day is over. 624 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: Thanks to love. I'm gonna love thinking of you reading it. 625 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 1: All right, thank you for being here, Danny, God blessio. 626 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Take care. The book is called Inheritance, 627 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: a Memoir of genealogy, paternity, and mostly love, and Danny's 628 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: podcast is called Family Secrets. New episodes will be released 629 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: each week through the winter and into spring. You can 630 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: find it on I Heart Radio and all of your 631 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: favorite podcast platforms. I'm a little more than halfway through 632 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: the book. Can't wait to finish it. Listen You will 633 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: love this book. Even if you don't have a big 634 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: family secret like Danny did, you will still love this book. 635 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: Pick up your copy today, and you and me next 636 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 1: time I love someone with Delilah or I will do 637 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 1: my best to inspire you to change the world, one 638 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: heart at a time.