Speaker 1: You're listening to Comedy Central. Welcome to Beyond the Scenes,
Speaker 1: The Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into
Speaker 1: segments and topics that originally aired on the show, like
Speaker 1: if you had hot chocolate? Like okay, Like the Daily
Speaker 1: Show is a cup of hot chocolate, and we're all
Speaker 1: the little extra condiments and all the little extra stuff
Speaker 1: you add in to make it that much sweeter. We're
Speaker 1: the whipped cream, the caramel swirl, the large marshmallows, the
Speaker 1: cinnamon powder. And I should have made that for myself.
Speaker 1: A fight did this podcast? Now I'm hungry? Anyway, Today
Speaker 1: we're diving deeper into a topic covered on The Daily
Speaker 1: Show by a correspond to Dulce Sloan. In her segment,
Speaker 1: Dull saying she covered the various gender stereotypes present in
Speaker 1: children's books Give me a clip.
Speaker 2: The fact is, children's books play a big role in
Speaker 2: shaping our views as adults, whether it's about race, culture
Speaker 2: or proper pooping etiquette. But one of the areas they
Speaker 2: influenced kids the most is gender roles. And that's a
Speaker 2: big problem because when it comes to gender, most of
Speaker 2: these books are more outdated than a pair of Jenko Jane.
Speaker 3: I mean, why were they so big?
Speaker 2: We try to sneak Kevin Harn's in a movie because
Speaker 2: chances are he's already in it. But speaking of little people,
Speaker 2: this is something we should all be paying attention to
Speaker 2: because by the age of seven, children's ideas about what
Speaker 2: they can be when they grow up are already formed.
Speaker 2: And what do you think those ideas are gonna be
Speaker 2: when they've been reading books like this? Dick and Jane
Speaker 2: the book series that almost every first grader was reading
Speaker 2: in the nineteen fifties and sixties, and it was notorious
Speaker 2: for portraying stereotypical gender roles. Look at that the dad
Speaker 2: and the brother are out playing with Spot and the
Speaker 2: mom is inside cleaning up spots.
Speaker 4: I mean, what is that?
Speaker 3: A pudler? Peek? Was r Kelly their dinner guest.
Speaker 2: And look at poor Jane in this one. She can't
Speaker 2: even have a little fun without doing some chores. Can't
Speaker 2: a girl just roller skates? She asked the sweep too.
Speaker 2: What's next, You're gonna have to jump rope? I'll making
Speaker 2: a sandwich.
Speaker 1: Joining us today for this conversation is Daily Show Deep
Speaker 1: dive researcher Stephanie Oh Stephanie is the one who actually
Speaker 1: pitched this segment. Stephanie, you are here because of your
Speaker 1: own creativity. Now you have more work to do by
Speaker 1: being on this podcast. How are you doing?
Speaker 4: I'm doing good. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you are see rare ambition, gotcha. Also joining
Speaker 1: us is the CEO, owner and author of Hey Carter Books,
Speaker 1: Doctor Tamisha Booker. Doctor, Welcome to the show. How you
Speaker 1: feeling today? O?
Speaker 3: Good? Thank you?
Speaker 1: All right, Well let's get into this topic because this
Speaker 1: is one you know, as a father of a six
Speaker 1: year old, it's one that I'm starting to be a
Speaker 1: little more present in, you know, you know, like I
Speaker 1: found my son going that's a boy color and that's
Speaker 1: a girl color, and things of that nature, and that's
Speaker 1: nothing we've ever really taught at the house. But Stephanie,
Speaker 1: I want to start with you. What made you pitch
Speaker 1: this segment to the show.
Speaker 5: I think for me, I just really reflected on like
Speaker 5: books that I read as a kid, and you know,
Speaker 5: we're in a period where a lot of books are
Speaker 5: being banned, so I was just like fascinated by that
Speaker 5: entire idea, like what children are reading, what they're interested in,
Speaker 5: and I stumbled upon some research that was particularly interesting
Speaker 5: that was basically saying that female characters are disproportionately like
Speaker 5: had certain roles like as maids or princesses and things
Speaker 5: like that versus like male characters and children's books. And
Speaker 5: I was like, this is something we absolutely need to
Speaker 5: do a piece on.
Speaker 4: So that's that's kind of how it happened.
Speaker 1: And that's a cool thing about this building is that
Speaker 1: anybody can pitch anything at any given time, and it
Speaker 1: is game. Because when I saw those say do this piece,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, well, yeah, yeah, what.
Speaker 3: The hell is going on?
Speaker 1: Because we you know, doctor book. The thing about the
Speaker 1: Daily shows that we're always kind of going back and
Speaker 1: forth with essentially two different types of stories. There is
Speaker 1: the story that you want to hear about and you
Speaker 1: want more information on, you know, what do people want
Speaker 1: to hear about versus what we think you need to
Speaker 1: know about, you know, And I think that's always kind
Speaker 1: of been the back and forth, like Stephanie, what books
Speaker 1: did you read growing up? And like, did any of
Speaker 1: those books have an impact on this segment, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of what you decided to pitch?
Speaker 4: Definitely, So it's funny.
Speaker 5: So like a book that I often read as a
Speaker 5: kid was like the Berenstein Bears series, and it was
Speaker 5: always interesting, like Sister Bear never really got to do
Speaker 5: a lot, or Mama Bear was always like in the kitchen.
Speaker 5: So that thinking back to those kind of stories definitely
Speaker 5: impacted this kind of this research and this information that
Speaker 5: I found. Also, another story I really loved as a
Speaker 5: kid was Amelia Badillia. I don't know if you guys
Speaker 5: know Amelia Vadilia. Okay, doc knows Amelia Vidilia.
Speaker 1: I didn't. Encyclopedia.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, you were reading Encyclopedia's Okay, you are much.
Speaker 5: More accomplished, young child, you said, and it's Cyclopedia's like what.
Speaker 5: But so Amelia Vidilia was basically this maid, but she
Speaker 5: was always finding herself in these ridiculous situations. She was
Speaker 5: kind of like fumbling, bumbling. So in one hand I
Speaker 5: appreciated it for its comedic aspect as a comedian, like
Speaker 5: that was great to me at the time. But then
Speaker 5: when you start to think about, like as an adult,
Speaker 5: I think about those stories, it was like, why why
Speaker 5: was she portrayed so dumb? Like she was running an
Speaker 5: entire household and she couldn't do it right, but somehow
Speaker 5: she still managed to keep her job to keep having
Speaker 5: these ridiculous scenarios. It was just it doesn't make sense
Speaker 5: as an adult. As a child, absolutely, but as an
Speaker 5: adult it's like, okay, well, how are we portraying this
Speaker 5: woman and why she portrayed in this way? And it
Speaker 5: becomes really just really fascinating.
Speaker 1: So, doctor Booker, before you answered the same question, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna try and guess what she was reading as a child.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna try now that I don't want
Speaker 1: you to laugh. There was no judgment. If my guess
Speaker 1: is too far off, I'm gonna say a little bit
Speaker 1: of Curious George at first, just a sprinkling of Curious George.
Speaker 1: And then as you matriculated a little older in the
Speaker 1: middle school, i'm gonna say the Hobbit, And okay, fine,
Speaker 1: what were you reading? What books were you reading? And
Speaker 1: not let that impact you as an adult.
Speaker 3: I did read a little Curious George. It didn't stick
Speaker 3: out to me when I was reflecting on what I read.
Speaker 3: The Hobbit definitely not. What sticks out to me is
Speaker 3: babysitters clubs up to me, mostly what I remember is
Speaker 3: not being able to find myself in books, like not
Speaker 3: being able to find characters that look like me that
Speaker 3: reflected my experiences. A lot of that and I didn't
Speaker 3: latch on to reading in books because of that. I
Speaker 3: was also raised by my grandmother who was white, my
Speaker 3: mom who's biracial, and they were not very centered in
Speaker 3: their blackness. So I was not surrounded by a lot
Speaker 3: of those books, and I think that just really impacted
Speaker 3: introductive of my life, especially just not having those direct messages.
Speaker 1: Okay, so then recognizing where the gaps were, what was
Speaker 1: it that you thought was lacking in children's literature? Could
Speaker 1: you start writing the hay Card of books? But the
Speaker 1: only reason we start doing anything is because we think
Speaker 1: that we have something to offer that space that isn't
Speaker 1: already there. Like, you don't strike me as a person,
Speaker 1: just go, well, I can do with the Bernstein Bears?
Speaker 1: Do I just copy that? Like? No, you were clearly
Speaker 1: trying to do something greater. But what was it that
Speaker 1: you thought was lacking and what was the problem that
Speaker 1: you were actively trying to fix?
Speaker 3: So I think first a lot of in children's books,
Speaker 3: you see books about animals, right, people always want to
Speaker 3: write these children's books and showcase animals before they want
Speaker 3: to showcase a diverse or a black character. So for me,
Speaker 3: when I was pregnant with my son, I just felt
Speaker 3: the heaviness of what that meant. I felt the responsibility
Speaker 3: of that and wanted to do something. And it was
Speaker 3: also kind of a cathartic moment for me because it
Speaker 3: opened up this really creative part of me that I
Speaker 3: did not tap into before. Most of all the writing
Speaker 3: that I did prior to becoming a mother was in school.
Speaker 3: You know. It was educational writing. It was curriculum based,
Speaker 3: it was research based, and so this was kind of
Speaker 3: like allowed me to untap a piece of myself. And
Speaker 3: I was doing research and trying to build my son's
Speaker 3: book library and realize where are all the black boys?
Speaker 3: I did not see them on the front cover. I
Speaker 3: did not see there was a lack of diversity and
Speaker 3: children's books all around, but specifically black boys. And for me,
Speaker 3: writing books is not about just creating tools, but just
Speaker 3: changing narratives. Books have the ability to speak to children
Speaker 3: and tell them what the world thinks of them and
Speaker 3: then what they should then think of themselves. And I
Speaker 3: wanted my son to have messages that were written by me,
Speaker 3: so much as that I was in control of and
Speaker 3: images that I was in control of that he can
Speaker 3: see himself and then when he steps into those spaces,
Speaker 3: it's a tool to be used in those spaces so
Speaker 3: he can have a positive narrative, an accurate narrative of
Speaker 3: who he is.
Speaker 1: How difficult was it in trying to like the I
Speaker 1: guess the R and D and the development of it,
Speaker 1: Like I don't know a lot about literature and being
Speaker 1: an author and trying to bring a book to market,
Speaker 1: like the only comparison I could even have just as
Speaker 1: a layman, like I know, if I was trying to rap,
Speaker 1: I would put my wrap on a CD. Well not
Speaker 1: a CD now, but you would make a demo and
Speaker 1: then you would spread that around to people for free
Speaker 1: or try and get it in the hands of big
Speaker 1: decision makers in the music industry. So when you decide
Speaker 1: to create a as a black woman author already black
Speaker 1: in a woman, Strike one, Strike two, and then you're
Speaker 1: writing about black boys, Strike three, what was the process
Speaker 1: of just even trying to get any of this to market.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's difficult. I mean I'm a self published author.
Speaker 3: Everything I've done has been on my own. I use
Speaker 3: money from my full time job to fund it. You know,
Speaker 3: I work as a hospital administrator and safety and it
Speaker 3: in Oakland, and so that was one of the hardest
Speaker 3: pieces is trying to fund this project and self publishing.
Speaker 3: It's difficult. I mean, you you you start off as
Speaker 3: wanting to write a book, but really what you stepped
Speaker 3: into is you're starting a book business. So you need
Speaker 3: to have marketing strategy. There's branding, there's the illustrations, there's
Speaker 3: all this research you need to do. And to be honest,
Speaker 3: I made a lot of mistakes. I made some costly mistakes.
Speaker 3: I just had no clue. I was using Google to
Speaker 3: inform my decisions, which is terrible. If there's anybody who
Speaker 3: wants to write a book, specifically a children's book, you
Speaker 3: definitely need someone to guide you through that process.
Speaker 1: FIGS list is where you should go.
Speaker 3: You should You definitely need someone to sort of just
Speaker 3: kind of hold your hand through it because you can
Speaker 3: make some costly mistakes, which I did. And it has
Speaker 3: a little bit of what you said Roy about that,
Speaker 3: like you know, taking a CD and putting it there.
Speaker 3: I had to get my book to my community. I
Speaker 3: learned early on and quickly who my book was for
Speaker 3: and how to get it in their hands. One of
Speaker 3: the first events I did was the Black Joy Parade
Speaker 3: in Oakland, and that's where my people are, that's where
Speaker 3: my community is, that's where black families are, that's where
Speaker 3: black children are. We sold out of books that day
Speaker 3: because we got it in the right hands. But I
Speaker 3: also learned a valuable lesson, which is don't understock your inventory.
Speaker 3: It's not a good thing to sell out of books.
Speaker 3: You want to always have books to sell. So it's
Speaker 3: just been a continual journey of learning this book business.
Speaker 3: But it's a grind. It's constantly getting your books out there.
Speaker 3: I started in twenty sixteen, and you know here I
Speaker 3: am still talking about these books and more of my projects.
Speaker 1: Well, after the break, I want to talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about the backlash that you face from having books
Speaker 1: that are focused that are so focused on one specific demographic,
Speaker 1: but also the benefits of this, and we'll get into
Speaker 1: that after the break. This is beyond the scenes, doctor Bookie.
Speaker 1: You've already made me feel infario as the father of
Speaker 1: a six year old because you've already included your child
Speaker 1: in the book series title, Hey Carter, my child. You know,
Speaker 1: I gave a cameo on one of my stand up
Speaker 1: comedy specials, not quite the same thing. Do you think
Speaker 1: your son understands just just how amazing this is? Does
Speaker 1: he understand how rare this is?
Speaker 3: It's funny you say that, because even with my book
Speaker 3: my son on the cover of several books, I'm still
Speaker 3: not cool enough for him, Like he's not sometime he's
Speaker 3: just not amused. You know, my book Brown Boy Joy
Speaker 3: was featured on Netflix where Joe Scott read my book,
Speaker 3: and of course I was just like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: this is so amazing. You know, you can tell Netflix
Speaker 3: to watch, mommy, you know, watch this. And he was like, oh, look,
Speaker 3: super underwhelmed by it. So I totally totally get where
Speaker 3: you're coming from there. I think over time he sees it.
Speaker 3: You know, I wrote a recent book it's called Froze, Braids,
Speaker 3: Fades and Waves, and I used a painter to illustrate
Speaker 3: the book and they really were able to capture his
Speaker 3: face in a portrait style. And when I showed him
Speaker 3: the book, he's like, Mommy, it's me, and I'm just like, dude,
Speaker 3: it's been you it's always been you're on all the
Speaker 3: covers of these books, but I think he was actually
Speaker 3: able to see it. I think, above all, he's super
Speaker 3: exposed to black entrepreneurship and black business, and I think
Speaker 3: he sees that. He sees us running a business, he
Speaker 3: sees us out there talking to the community, and so
Speaker 3: I know that has impacted him. Also, I think he's
Speaker 3: just really centered in his blackness. He's so far ahead
Speaker 3: of where I was as a child. I think I was.
Speaker 3: I know at his age, I was busy trying to
Speaker 3: conform to whiteness, busy trying to hide my blackness. And
Speaker 3: you know, they hear me be unapologetically black, and so
Speaker 3: they know what that looks like and what that feels like.
Speaker 3: And so I think my books have really helped to
Speaker 3: center him in his blackness. And you know, when he's
Speaker 3: looking for a good bedtime story, it's nothing better than
Speaker 3: him pulling out Stephanie.
Speaker 1: I know that we only have a limited amount of
Speaker 1: time and the dual saying segments to really get into
Speaker 1: you know, like we we essentially only have time for
Speaker 1: one or two things, how the problem happened, or how
Speaker 1: to solve the problem. And there's also a bigger degree
Speaker 1: of backlash that a lot of you know that a
Speaker 1: lot of authors like doctor Booker face What were some
Speaker 1: of the pieces that ended up on the cutting room
Speaker 1: floor for this segment that you all just didn't have
Speaker 1: the time to get to.
Speaker 5: I guess I think of it more in terms of
Speaker 5: like specific stories that are like classics that are problematic
Speaker 5: that we didn't address. And a particular author comes to mind,
Speaker 5: Roald Dahl. He wrote like Matilda and the Witches and
Speaker 5: a series of other very famous and very popular children's books,
Speaker 5: and there was a lot of sexism in those books,
Speaker 5: but there was also a lot of anti semitism in
Speaker 5: those books and a lot of racism in those books.
Speaker 5: And it was just I think it was more so
Speaker 5: a matter of he's got a lot of issues, we
Speaker 5: gotta we need to just bring it in and bring
Speaker 5: it down and kind of focus on the ones that
Speaker 5: we had, and I think we with the examples that
Speaker 5: we provided, they're very strong and obviously important examples as well.
Speaker 5: But that would be someone I definitely would have loved
Speaker 5: to have seen in the piece, just because of his
Speaker 5: stories being so well known, like Matilda has been like
Speaker 5: a very successful movie franchise and stuff like that and so,
Speaker 5: and they've made a number of Witches movies as well,
Speaker 5: So that would be someone I would have liked to
Speaker 5: have added in there, because I, while we focus on sexism,
Speaker 5: you know, in this conversation, we're definitely talking about the
Speaker 5: racial elements, and I think the piece wasn't necessarily able
Speaker 5: to address that.
Speaker 4: And it's always.
Speaker 5: Been an issue in children's book writing as well.
Speaker 1: So well, let's let's let's do backlash from two different perspectives.
Speaker 1: I want to zoom in first on you dot book,
Speaker 1: and then I want to come back out to just
Speaker 1: the people who are against the revisions or at least
Speaker 1: acknowledging a lot of the bullshit that it's in a
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that we've been reading up unto
Speaker 1: this day, and it's just accepted as literary cannon. But first,
Speaker 1: doctor Booker, was there any backlash from people for you
Speaker 1: choosing black boys? Because what I do know about the
Speaker 1: Internet is that if you love one thing, everyone assumes
Speaker 1: you hate all the other things. So if you dare
Speaker 1: to say yay, black boys, please just just let me
Speaker 1: know that nothing else happened. Right, Everything is smooth.
Speaker 3: You know, there's been a lot of different comments and
Speaker 3: feedback on the book. I mean, I think a lot
Speaker 3: of his questions like why, you know, asking me why
Speaker 3: are there only black boys in the books? You know,
Speaker 3: why are you choosing to write about black boys? And
Speaker 3: my response is always like why not. You know, black
Speaker 3: boys deserve their shine, they need to be front and centered,
Speaker 3: and my book Boks are about elevating black joy and
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong about that.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: People will say, you know, why are you writing a
Speaker 3: book just for black boys, And it's like, well, there's
Speaker 3: tons of books with just white characters, and we don't
Speaker 3: even refer to them as white books. We say that
Speaker 3: this is the education, this is the literature, this is
Speaker 3: what you need to consume, and it doesn't have this
Speaker 3: special title. So I always say my books are four
Speaker 3: black children. They're written for black children, but they are
Speaker 3: not just for black children. They are for all children,
Speaker 3: and it's really really important that non black children consume
Speaker 3: the content and see all of the joy. One specific
Speaker 3: blacklash that I get a lot in Brown Boy Joy
Speaker 3: is I have a page in there where the kids,
Speaker 3: the boys are playing with toys and one of the
Speaker 3: boy is holding a doll that's literally all you see
Speaker 3: is he's holding a doll. And you know, I get
Speaker 3: messages and you can see on my Amazon reviews have
Speaker 3: very few, you know, one rated reviews, and they say
Speaker 3: that I'm trying to emasculate black men. You know, I
Speaker 3: get DM saying, you know, why is this boy playing
Speaker 3: with dolls when this is a book for boys? And
Speaker 3: I'm like, aren't dolls toys? Do boys play with toys?
Speaker 1: My sister, You've got to understand its you part of
Speaker 1: a capitalistic structure that dismanted the black family exactly.
Speaker 3: So I just, you know, I you know, when this
Speaker 3: book particularly is about allowing as many black boys specifically
Speaker 3: to see themselves in that book. So that means them
Speaker 3: being interested in an array of hobbies. They're doing gardening
Speaker 3: in the book. They of course they're playing with trucks
Speaker 3: and dinosaurs, but they're also having a slumber party, they're coloring,
Speaker 3: they're you know, they're they're just being in their joy
Speaker 3: and we can't we don't want to take that away
Speaker 3: from children, and we definitely want to put it front center.
Speaker 1: What was it like when you first started experiencing this
Speaker 1: BA because I would imagine that when you first created this,
Speaker 1: you were just like, I just love black boys, yes,
Speaker 1: and then someone goes, you don't like black girls, Like
Speaker 1: how difficult is it to remain steadfast and what your
Speaker 1: creative north star is in the face of this type
Speaker 1: of constant feedback, you know, from a small but loud minority.
Speaker 3: You know, I chose to self published because I wanted
Speaker 3: to be in control of the messages that I put out,
Speaker 3: when I wanted to save them, and how I wanted
Speaker 3: to save them. So though that type of feedback is
Speaker 3: just a reminder that I don't as a self published author,
Speaker 3: I don't answer to anybody. I create, I curate the
Speaker 3: content that I want for black children, and no one's
Speaker 3: going to impact that. I mean, I was sort of
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say I'm shocked, because when it comes to
Speaker 3: centering blackness, there's always going to be opinions, There's always
Speaker 3: going to be people who try to dim our lights.
Speaker 3: So I wasn't, you know, too shocked by that. But
Speaker 3: it's just a reminder. It makes me want to, you know,
Speaker 3: write more books. It makes me want to be you know,
Speaker 3: even more deep into that black message, Like it makes
Speaker 3: me want to write books titled like I'm Black and proud.
Speaker 3: You know, it wants me to really even go even
Speaker 3: further with it, so I sort of use it as
Speaker 3: as motivation and even just use it as a way
Speaker 3: to open up more conversation about why is it a
Speaker 3: problem for you to have black boys playing with a doll?
Speaker 3: Why is it a problem for you to see black
Speaker 3: boys happy? What is the problem with black joy and
Speaker 3: black happiness? Because it's not a problem for me, you know,
Speaker 3: so just trying to shift that back for them to
Speaker 3: do a little inner work and see really what that is.
Speaker 3: And we know that's all centered around anti blackness, and
Speaker 3: that's definitely work that they need to do. Well.
Speaker 1: We look forward to your next book, Kiss My Black
Speaker 1: Ass That's True, available in hardcover. Uh, Stephanie Doctor Booker
Speaker 1: is creating the type of literature that was missing in
Speaker 1: a time when the problematic literature flourished. Why do you
Speaker 1: think there is so much pushback nationally from people who
Speaker 1: don't even want to just sit for a second and acknowledge, Hey,
Speaker 1: maybe that wasn't as good of a book as we
Speaker 1: thought it was, and maybe we should stop fucking reading it.
Speaker 5: I think that's the next question I would say. You know,
Speaker 5: I honestly think it has to do with nostalgia.
Speaker 1: We couldn't even take the inn word out of huck Finn.
Speaker 1: They was like, come on, man.
Speaker 5: No, no, it's nostalgia and it's holding on to these
Speaker 5: sort of old experiences and people associate maybe that book
Speaker 5: with their childhood and the in word with their childhood,
Speaker 5: and so it's old things exactly the good.
Speaker 4: Old days, you know, back when America was great again.
Speaker 5: That's what they're holding on to, that whole like idea
Speaker 5: of like nostalgia. And so especially when you go after
Speaker 5: something like children's books, it's like, well, it's just a book,
Speaker 5: what's the big deal, because they've got that nostalgia and
Speaker 5: that's problematic in the sense that it's like not wanting
Speaker 5: to move forward or not wanting to reflect on history.
Speaker 5: And okay, so that was a story from your your past,
Speaker 5: but the context in which that story was written, there
Speaker 5: are a lot of people that were suffering and that
Speaker 5: were oppressed, and women were not in a good place
Speaker 5: and still struggling. But the women were not in a
Speaker 5: good place at all, and so to hold on to
Speaker 5: that and not and not see that, you know, the
Speaker 5: context in which that story was written was a bad
Speaker 5: time for a lot of people. Is it's like intentionally obtuse,
Speaker 5: Like it's intentionally ignorant just for the sake of your
Speaker 5: own nostalgia, and that's probablematic It's like it doesn't take
Speaker 5: away from your memories, but it's like acknowledging that people
Speaker 5: went through something, and everything from children's books to cinema
Speaker 5: was influenced by what was going on in that time.
Speaker 1: So that same point that doctor Booker, what have some
Speaker 1: of your conversations been with other authors. I'm sure that
Speaker 1: you all have had conversations about, you know, other authors
Speaker 1: that also choose to focus, you know, hyper focus on
Speaker 1: specific demographics or specific types of books. What has been
Speaker 1: the conversations amongst them as well about a lot of
Speaker 1: the backlash that's happening about actually having something that speaks
Speaker 1: to a specific group of people within literature.
Speaker 3: I think most of the authors that I definitely surround
Speaker 3: myself with, they're I mean, they're with it with the uh,
Speaker 3: let's create all the banned books that we can. You know,
Speaker 3: we want to continue to create the books that we
Speaker 3: know our children need, and we are taking agency over
Speaker 3: our our creative works and wanting to make sure that
Speaker 3: our students are black students get this content and if
Speaker 3: that means we have to create ourselves. And you know,
Speaker 3: to Stephanie's point about some of these books that I
Speaker 3: do think a lot of people are saying are nostalgic
Speaker 3: and feel like it's taking away their their childhood. It's
Speaker 3: it's a lack of accountability because they have to also
Speaker 3: and I think I get that it's painful too, because
Speaker 3: if you accept that the book is wrong, you also
Speaker 3: have to accept that the person who exposed you to
Speaker 3: it was in the wrong. You have to also accept
Speaker 3: that the messages that you received growing up about that
Speaker 3: book were wrong. If I were to open up any
Speaker 3: of those books now and read them to my children,
Speaker 3: I as a parent, would not I would stop. I
Speaker 3: would stop reading the book, or I would use that
Speaker 3: as an educational moment to talk to my child about
Speaker 3: the things that are happening in the world. And that's
Speaker 3: what books are for. They're supposed to be teaching our
Speaker 3: children lessons. Because all those books that these, you know,
Speaker 3: everyone says nostalgic, you learned something from that. You were
Speaker 3: you were taught how to behave as a woman, you
Speaker 3: were taught about what was acceptable as a boy, as
Speaker 3: a girl. You you took in all those messages and we
Speaker 3: can't continue to share this type of content with our children.
Speaker 3: And if their children are still reading those books, you
Speaker 3: have to think how that's impacting their life and how
Speaker 3: they're going into their spaces with that information. Exuse, I
Speaker 3: know my children, my sons, particularly when he's reading the book,
Speaker 3: he's asking questions. You know, he asked me not too
Speaker 3: long ago, why are all the superheroes white? I said,
Speaker 3: that's a great question. First of all, they're not all
Speaker 3: of them. There are a few.
Speaker 1: That are.
Speaker 3: Fun.
Speaker 1: Fun sponn made it deal with the Devil, but yeah,
Speaker 1: superhero Okay, So they get.
Speaker 3: It, and you know, they get it and they're questioning things.
Speaker 3: And I think when you continue to show a child
Speaker 3: and narrative where little girls are only in the kitchen
Speaker 3: or submissive or don't even have speaking roles in books,
Speaker 3: you're teaching them something and they will begin to respond
Speaker 3: to that.
Speaker 1: Well, we've talked about the problem. We've talked about the
Speaker 1: haters who creating the problem we talked about, But now
Speaker 1: we need to figure out some solutions to the problem
Speaker 1: and see how things have changed from our childhood until now.
Speaker 1: We'll wrap it up with a wonderful, wonderful discussion about
Speaker 1: children's literature. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right
Speaker 1: back beyond the scenes. Welcome back. We are talking about
Speaker 1: children's literature and representation in children's literature, the problematic children's
Speaker 1: literature that we were all raised on, even though some
Speaker 1: of it, you know, it was it like, really, the
Speaker 1: Three Bears was a story about burglary, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: and also a little bit about white entitlement. If you
Speaker 1: really want to get if you really dig and dig
Speaker 1: down into the real root of the issues, the white
Speaker 1: up a couple of these bears house eating up the shit.
Speaker 1: Oh I feel like I might. Okay, maybe I'm reaching
Speaker 1: with that part of it, but let's talk. You know,
Speaker 1: as as we wrap up here, ladies, have you seen
Speaker 1: a progression like just in terms of the representation in
Speaker 1: children's books from your childhood until now? Because you know,
Speaker 1: I have a six year old, so I read a
Speaker 1: lot as a child, but most of what I read
Speaker 1: that I remember was books on tape of popular movies.
Speaker 1: So my mother would take me to a movie and
Speaker 1: then you would get the book version of that movie
Speaker 1: and then the tape and you would read along with
Speaker 1: the tape. And that's kind of how I learned to read.
Speaker 1: So I never had like the plethora of Bearstein Bears
Speaker 1: or Bernstein or have it a hell you say it now,
Speaker 1: Like I didn't have the plethora of Doctor Seus's stuff.
Speaker 1: Like it was animal books and books on tape primarily.
Speaker 1: And so with my son, what I have noticed is
Speaker 1: that there's a huge amount of representation. And she'll television
Speaker 1: but which I know is much better than what it
Speaker 1: was in the eighties. But what about you all, And
Speaker 1: I'll start with you, doctor Booker. How much better is
Speaker 1: representation from when you were a child until now?
Speaker 3: You know, I'll definitely say it's better. I think just
Speaker 3: you know, as evidence of like my kids have a
Speaker 3: full bookshelves of just black books, you know, so I
Speaker 3: didn't have that. I definitely think there's a lot more.
Speaker 3: But we could do much. We mean, we have so
Speaker 3: far to go. We need a lot more books. And
Speaker 3: I think even in television. You know, my work is
Speaker 3: centered around black boys, and you know, one of my
Speaker 3: goals has always been to create an animated series focused
Speaker 3: on boys, because you when you look at animated series
Speaker 3: for children. Where is the black boy front and center?
Speaker 3: Where is that brilliant black boy as the main character?
Speaker 3: You know, black children don't need to be the sidekick.
Speaker 3: They need to be the main character, in charge of
Speaker 3: the narrative and in a story that represents their their truth.
Speaker 1: So yeah, Animated, No, there's not like aluding to Count
Speaker 1: Miles Morales Spider Man, because that's more teenager, you know, preteen,
Speaker 1: that's not like five six, seven year old or even.
Speaker 3: Like the preschool shows. It sucks that my kid, my
Speaker 3: daughter is addicted to cocoa melon and there is one
Speaker 3: black character, but he's like not the main character. And
Speaker 3: I think they've tried to do that more recently, but
Speaker 3: the black boys they're just not They're not front and center,
Speaker 3: and that's a huge problem. I mean, there are some
Speaker 3: of my favorite books I love I Am Every Good
Speaker 3: Thing by Derek Barnes. It just it's all about that
Speaker 3: black joy and just putting black boys front and center
Speaker 3: and all. They're brilliant, and that's one of my favorites
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 1: Stephanie, what about you? What were some of the things
Speaker 1: that you read growing up? And I guess have you
Speaker 1: seen a progression just in terms of the research that
Speaker 1: you did for this piece that you go, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: it is a little bit better.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would have to agree with doctor Booker. There
Speaker 5: definitely is a progression. We are seeing a lot more representation,
Speaker 5: particularly thinking about like black girl characters and girls being
Speaker 5: able to thinking about the piece in particular, girls being
Speaker 5: able to have jobs that are not like made or
Speaker 5: princess or some sort of damsel in distress, but actually
Speaker 5: being able to be like a scientist. Like I think
Speaker 5: there's an entire and I do not recall the name
Speaker 5: of the series, but there's like an animated series with
Speaker 5: a little black girl that's like into science and exploration
Speaker 5: and that's on Ada. Thank you on Netflix, Yes, Yes,
Speaker 5: on Netflix, and so things like that I think is wonderful.
Speaker 5: But I would say that I think we're in a
Speaker 5: period of where there's like a lot more representation starting
Speaker 5: to develop because of a lot of things that have
Speaker 5: happened twenty twenty. Being one of them is like, oh
Speaker 5: wait a minute, people actually want to see themselves. We
Speaker 5: still have a long way to go, and I think
Speaker 5: going from limited to no representation to suddenly there's representation,
Speaker 5: that doesn't mean that the problem is solved. It means
Speaker 5: that Okay, now we're here, we're at ground floor. We
Speaker 5: were in hell, now we're at ground floor, and then
Speaker 5: we just go up from there and continue to make
Speaker 5: them more dynamic and more interesting and in different places
Speaker 5: where you wouldn't expect them to be, or doing different things.
Speaker 5: And so I think that there's still a long way
Speaker 5: to go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, doctor Booker, I want to end with this and
Speaker 1: forgive me if this question is a little too broad,
Speaker 1: but I want to expand it a little bit beyond
Speaker 1: just young black boys, for parents of whatever child they have,
Speaker 1: and whatever demographic that child, whatever boxes that child might check.
Speaker 1: Why is it important to read to children with literature
Speaker 1: that represents their identity? Like, how does that help restore
Speaker 1: an innocence in a child?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean protecting the innefence of children is super important.
Speaker 3: I think you know saying earlier that books have the
Speaker 3: ability to essentially teach children what the world is thinking
Speaker 3: of them, which they in turn will think of themselves.
Speaker 3: And so if you are showing a child a book
Speaker 3: that they cannot see themselves in, they start to question
Speaker 3: where they fit in. And I think really people underestimate
Speaker 3: how dangerous the lack of representation can be when a
Speaker 3: child is in a classroom, when they are in their
Speaker 3: homes reading, they need to be able to literally see
Speaker 3: themselves on the pages. You have to see it to
Speaker 3: believe it right, in order to know that things are possible.
Speaker 3: If there is a boy who doesn't feel like his
Speaker 3: identity is reflected, he then starts to feel like he
Speaker 3: cannot be himself. He cannot show the world who he
Speaker 3: really is because because obviously in the books that he reads,
Speaker 3: which are telling him what the world thinks of it,
Speaker 3: he doesn't even exist. So, you know, for some parents
Speaker 3: who are uncomfortable with certain topics, are uncomfortable with exposing
Speaker 3: their children to things. Books are a way to have
Speaker 3: that conversation for you, if you choose the right book.
Speaker 3: And so it's important to have a diverse library selection,
Speaker 3: to have books that are going to teach those messages
Speaker 3: and surround your children with all the spectrum of identities,
Speaker 3: the spectrum of culture, the spectrum of various ethnicities, and
Speaker 3: just experiences. Children have to be exposed to narratives that
Speaker 3: differ from their others. You do not want them centered
Speaker 3: in a world that is singular that only involves people
Speaker 3: that look like them and have the same experiences them.
Speaker 3: Some people will say to that, then, why black books
Speaker 3: just about with black children. It's like, well, we need
Speaker 3: to center around our blackness because we've had so much
Speaker 3: anti blackness saying a counter narrative. So that's why these
Speaker 3: books are important for us. But I expose my children
Speaker 3: to a variety of books. It's not just just read
Speaker 3: these black books, but definitely take those in and read
Speaker 3: all books and really teaching them to question and think
Speaker 3: about what books are telling them. So I would say
Speaker 3: to parents, when you're reading these books afterwards, have a conversation,
Speaker 3: what did you see in this book? What did this
Speaker 3: book teach you? How do you feel about yourself now
Speaker 3: that you've read this book? What does this tell you
Speaker 3: about your friends and their family members. So books are
Speaker 3: tools not just about reading comprehension, but messages throughout life.
Speaker 1: I don't think that there's a better place for us
Speaker 1: to dispount than right there. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: your expertise and sharing it with us today, doctor Booker,
Speaker 1: Stephanie O. I will see you in the hallways of
Speaker 1: the Daily Shop. I got to swing by the deep
Speaker 1: dive you do, and I come down there, y'all too far.
Speaker 1: That's it's like nine offices all the way down the hall.
Speaker 1: I don't do a nine office walk three four doors
Speaker 1: at the most. Thank you all so much for joining us,
Speaker 1: and hopefully by now we've taken you beyond the scenes.
Speaker 1: Play my music. Listen to The Daily Show Beyond the
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Speaker 5: This has been a Comedy Central podcast