Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done.
Speaker 3: Done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up at SVU Podcast.
Speaker 4: I'm one of your hosts, Kara Klink.
Speaker 2: And I'm Liza Tragger, and we are pumped to bring
Speaker 2: you another episode of SVU True Crimes and yes, a
Speaker 2: celeb guest, so yes, jam packed and you know, obviously
Speaker 2: we'll plug the tour. We'll plug the tour, yeah, and
Speaker 2: then we'll get into business. And then also I'm on
Speaker 2: the road and I'm also doing some show and tells
Speaker 2: in Chicago and La. And if you wondering what that is,
Speaker 2: it's from grade school Show and tell Get into it.
Speaker 2: Get into it. It's not a one woman show. It's people, Yeah,
Speaker 2: people with things. Yeah, that's fun. You're gonna do it
Speaker 2: in La. I'm gonna come see it. Yeah, one in La,
Speaker 2: want two in Chicago and one in Well, you've missed it,
Speaker 2: you've missed it.
Speaker 4: It's too late, you've missed it.
Speaker 1: Well, this episode's coming out on October eighth, which means
Speaker 1: you still have about a week to get a ticket
Speaker 1: to our show. Please, if you have friends that like
Speaker 1: us or want to be get into us for you,
Speaker 1: send them our way. In any of the cities that
Speaker 1: I'm about to say, Denver, San Francisco, La, San Diego, Portland, Phoenix,
Speaker 1: we are going to be there. We're planning new games,
Speaker 1: new different little fun bits, like.
Speaker 4: It's spooky season.
Speaker 1: It's like it so even if you've seen us, come
Speaker 1: again because it's a different show, obviously we do a
Speaker 1: different episode in your town as well.
Speaker 2: But the whole format we're really shaped. I don't think
Speaker 2: the spreadsheet is planned. You don't think the spreadsheet knows
Speaker 2: what episode we've done where thank you and.
Speaker 4: Shaking it up. But then you are shaking it.
Speaker 2: It will happen where someone will see us in Seattle
Speaker 2: and then suddenly they're like in North Carolina and they're like,
Speaker 2: well I already saw this one, and it's like, honey, yeah, sorry, Carmen,
Speaker 2: San Diego, we can't.
Speaker 1: I didn't know you were going to drive from Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't know you were going to show up in
Speaker 1: Wisconsin after we saw you in San Diego. I just
Speaker 1: I couldn't have known, but we do rotate a lot
Speaker 1: of different episodes on the live shows, so you'll get
Speaker 1: a great one and the live show audio just in
Speaker 1: case you've never seen us.
Speaker 2: We don't really do a true crime.
Speaker 1: We just go through a classic like campy episode, like
Speaker 1: the episodes that aren't necessarily based on true crimes. We've
Speaker 1: got a PowerPoint, we've got games, all kinds of fun
Speaker 1: shit that we do. Plus we sell tour exclusive merch.
Speaker 1: This is merch that we've never sold on tour before.
Speaker 1: That's coming out and to you. We're really excited about it.
Speaker 1: And we do meet and greets blah blah blah. You
Speaker 1: get to meet us and have fun.
Speaker 4: We got to start. Okay, Yeah, and that's it.
Speaker 1: Go to That's Messed Up Live dot com. That's where
Speaker 1: all the information is and that's where the leaves of
Speaker 1: tour dates are.
Speaker 4: Well, what's up sell me everything?
Speaker 2: Yesterday was one of the best days of my life
Speaker 2: and I was at Simpson's Trivia Slash Costume Contests Slash.
Speaker 4: It was October first, so started the season.
Speaker 2: The head girl of the Brooklyn Simpsons Trivia is a listener.
Speaker 2: She did tell me after she listens to the pod,
Speaker 2: so that is a thrill. Hello, Gray, and they killed us.
Speaker 1: They asked us to host it back when you lived
Speaker 1: here and we and I was like, we don't live
Speaker 1: in New York. But Lisa, this is right up her
Speaker 1: fucking alley. I'm like a lover of the Simpsons first
Speaker 1: six seasons maybe and then never again. So you are
Speaker 1: like the biggest Simpsons freak I know. So this is
Speaker 1: like a match made in heaven. I wouldn't use the
Speaker 1: word freak, and I would.
Speaker 2: These are these are then I wonder how you would
Speaker 2: feel at Simpson's Trivia, but it was the knowledge was deep.
Speaker 2: I mean, so the other two judges so and okay,
Speaker 2: So it's at the gutter where I do stand up
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 4: So I know the bartender.
Speaker 2: I see him on Wednesday as I've been performing at
Speaker 2: that show for years, and.
Speaker 4: I showed up. He's dressed as most Lack.
Speaker 2: There's a duff beer and so I'm like, oh, I'm
Speaker 2: about to have the time of my life.
Speaker 4: And the it was just it was cool.
Speaker 2: And then what they did and now I know I
Speaker 2: sex and my sex and the City Trivia night was
Speaker 2: a disaster. I did learn a lot from the Simpsons
Speaker 2: trivia night. They watched an we watched an episode in
Speaker 2: between each round where they get to like tally what
Speaker 2: they need to tally. So in between each round there's
Speaker 2: an episode on. So that's really fun.
Speaker 1: Oh cute, So you don't like lose any momentum because
Speaker 1: everybody's having fun watching Simpsons.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, but I loved deliberating.
Speaker 2: I love the little parade of people they delivered, Like
Speaker 2: everyone did line readings and there's tons of different costumes
Speaker 2: and it's like it was really hard and yeah, but
Speaker 2: four people won and then we just loved some people
Speaker 2: so much. There were on our mentions. But there was
Speaker 2: a man who got upset he was not winning. I
Speaker 2: guess there was a tantrum. I guess there was yelling.
Speaker 2: I mean I was pretty wasted by that point. I was.
Speaker 4: I was on cloud nine, so I kind of missed it.
Speaker 2: But he was annoying me the whole time, Like he
Speaker 2: annoyed me, and he had a great costume. It just
Speaker 2: wasn't original and it's been done before, so like that's
Speaker 2: part of it, you know, And it was a great costume.
Speaker 2: It didn't tickle her fancy. Sorry.
Speaker 4: How many judges were there?
Speaker 3: Were?
Speaker 4: You and who else.
Speaker 2: It was me and two other people, Sarah and Jim.
Speaker 2: And Sarah knew all the answers, but there are people
Speaker 2: getting perfect like it was wild.
Speaker 4: How many answers did you know?
Speaker 2: So I probably knew maybe like three per round, but
Speaker 2: they also knew them and the only time I only
Speaker 2: had one answer that the two of them did it.
Speaker 1: Now, Wow, Oh I'm shocked. I always feel like you
Speaker 1: would know every deep cut.
Speaker 2: No, that's not my thing, Like I don't quote, that's
Speaker 2: like not yeah really my skill set.
Speaker 1: But you did a sex trivia where everything was so
Speaker 1: specific that everybody got mad.
Speaker 2: So I thought maybe that but that's yeah, it's because
Speaker 2: I did a bad job.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's me planning.
Speaker 2: I have over fifty pages of questions for sex and
Speaker 2: the City, and I might have gone too intense. I
Speaker 2: didn't have an episode playing like the people revolted, like
Speaker 2: this is a very well done night. People went all
Speaker 2: out and there was a baby. There was a baby.
Speaker 2: There was a krusty baby. Krusty the character of the
Speaker 2: clown not like a disgusting krusty baby.
Speaker 4: Uh, genius, like such a tent like so cool.
Speaker 2: And then it was like he was like the crusty
Speaker 2: doll and the parent had a shirt that was is
Speaker 2: this good and evil switch? I mean, I feel like
Speaker 2: i'm but it was. It was impressive. I loved people's creativity.
Speaker 2: Oh so then this man rights to the trivia night
Speaker 2: being like, hey, when I have to get this message
Speaker 2: the guy who didn't, Oh my god, and they responded
Speaker 2: so well, I'm like so into how they responded.
Speaker 4: So he wrote, I know you all.
Speaker 2: Weren't the judges, but I'm livid I wasn't even top five.
Speaker 2: And then the monocle, the monocle emoji like the smiley face,
Speaker 2: being like, excuse me what, and they responded, I know
Speaker 2: you made that very clear. So I thought that was
Speaker 2: like a pretty good response where it's like, yeah, we
Speaker 2: know you're mad, Like honey, it's a funny const I
Speaker 2: really fought for someone that, you know, like it happens.
Speaker 2: People were better than it's what are we talking about.
Speaker 2: It's a costume, gondas, it's for fun. It was there
Speaker 2: like a big cash prize.
Speaker 4: What the fuck?
Speaker 2: The prize was venus Gummy de Milo statues on like
Speaker 2: a pillow. So it was cute, but everyone got a
Speaker 2: button and the best team name wins as well, but
Speaker 2: people come every single.
Speaker 4: Month, so that's like, wow, it's amazing.
Speaker 2: None of my Simpsons friends like I My love is
Speaker 2: the like the visual, you know, I like I like
Speaker 2: to own the stuff. I like the merch and I
Speaker 2: like the stills, like I like following the instagrams where
Speaker 2: it's just like this is so fucking cute.
Speaker 4: Oh but I haven't even wilder thing. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So the winners to me were it was it was
Speaker 2: this guy with the big hand. He's like, I'm sick
Speaker 2: of being made fun of with my big hand. It
Speaker 2: was it's a two person costume and it was very
Speaker 2: very good. And so I ended up talking to them after.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, did I not post them? I did, Okay,
Speaker 2: So then after the so that's that was like all
Speaker 2: of our favorites. We because what we did it was
Speaker 2: all the judges we wrote each one on our own.
Speaker 2: We circled our favorites and then we all said our
Speaker 2: favorites and then that and then all of ours, like
Speaker 2: that was all capitalized.
Speaker 4: Like we were very impressed.
Speaker 2: So I'm talking to them after they've want They've they've
Speaker 2: been doing this costume contest like multiple years in a
Speaker 2: row where chatting.
Speaker 4: Taylor Swift comes up. We're talking Taylor.
Speaker 2: All of a sudden she looks at me and she goes,
Speaker 2: were you at Coney Island July fourth?
Speaker 4: And I go, oh my god.
Speaker 2: And she was the one that commented on my bracelet
Speaker 2: when I was in mine with Lane to go into
Speaker 2: the ball thing.
Speaker 4: She was behind me in line. Wow, yeah, my.
Speaker 2: Blue dress on a boat bracelet And I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god. So that was like pretty exciting as well.
Speaker 2: Small fucking world, man, that's cool. Yeah, people went all
Speaker 2: out like that. It's like it's a delicate balance because
Speaker 2: you can't be too obscure. This person was too obscure,
Speaker 2: but I was like obsessed, and it can't be too
Speaker 2: easy even if it's fun, Like I really like the
Speaker 2: rainbow wig George Bush, but like you got a wig.
Speaker 4: You know, you can't win. Yeah. There was like a
Speaker 4: muppet here.
Speaker 2: There's like a whole situation and they act out scenes.
Speaker 4: So some people like all had like fun lines and stuff.
Speaker 2: And there was a group project where there was like
Speaker 2: seven men and I'm like, for seven men to get
Speaker 2: a costume ca test.
Speaker 4: Together, for seven men to organize anything good?
Speaker 2: They well, and that the gutter, like the hallway into
Speaker 2: this back room is the toilets. It's like, it's disgusting.
Speaker 2: But they were all spray painting in the hallway and
Speaker 2: I was like, this is fucking cute. So we gave
Speaker 2: them an honorable mention. I'm like, all these men got
Speaker 2: together bought cloaks. I can't even believe it. Impressive, impressive.
Speaker 2: So yeah, sorry if that was just babbling on and on,
Speaker 2: but it was just so fucking fun.
Speaker 1: I love I'm bad sounds really that sounds like perfect,
Speaker 1: a perfect evening for you to judge a Simpson's costume contest.
Speaker 2: I mean perfect. Yeah, I mean we took I'm serious,
Speaker 2: we took it serious. And then and then I kind
Speaker 2: of you know me. So then we're talking and outside,
Speaker 2: I go, okay, how about we do honorable mentions and
Speaker 2: I'll give all of them twenty dollars And they're like, okay,
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 4: Think we should be handing out doll and I was like,
Speaker 4: you're right. I just they're like, because other people had
Speaker 4: good costs. Like she's like, what are.
Speaker 2: You doing and I'm like, no, no, you're right, and she
Speaker 2: goes Because the statue might not even be worth twenty
Speaker 2: dollars and I'm like, no, I just take it too far.
Speaker 4: You are a stranger to me. It's fine, I'll relax,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that sounds really fun.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're not and you're into that, I would go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Brooklyn at the Gutter, everybody go to the
Speaker 1: Simpsons trivia.
Speaker 2: That was a team that only got like four points
Speaker 2: total over three rounds. Like it's really hard, Like it's
Speaker 2: not really, it's very competitive.
Speaker 1: It's very hard, and yeah, that's like there's certain people
Speaker 1: that are good at that. Like I love thirty Rock,
Speaker 1: but my brother has seen every episode of thirty Rock
Speaker 1: one thousand times and knows every single character in every
Speaker 1: single phrase, and like like he goes to that crazy
Speaker 1: thirty Rock trivia nights and like does well. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm more of a general knowledge kind of gal about
Speaker 1: a lot of different things, but I do love trivia.
Speaker 2: Well. How animation is harder too, because I think I
Speaker 2: could do a sex and the City's Seinfeld easier than
Speaker 2: even Simpsons or this fandom is just so intense.
Speaker 1: Well, also, that's the City is six seasons and how
Speaker 1: many is Simpsons?
Speaker 2: Thirty?
Speaker 4: Yeah, but this is nice they don't do.
Speaker 1: It's only ninety Simpsons. Yes, yes, still, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of episodes, a lot of a content.
Speaker 2: Speaking of animation, so deep, like it just runs deep.
Speaker 2: Like while we were watching the episodes, people were like
Speaker 2: screaming the lines out altogether.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's deep.
Speaker 2: But I'm sure I probably have one of the better
Speaker 2: collections of things. Yes, of vintage merch, I'm sure, Oh
Speaker 2: my god. And I loved my costume, but one girl
Speaker 2: was shady. I will not name names, but uh well,
Speaker 2: I don't know anyone's name.
Speaker 4: I was new there. But I won't name names because
Speaker 4: I can't name names.
Speaker 2: But you know, I bought the shirt off at the
Speaker 2: I'm not part of the contest, like I'm just a judge,
Speaker 2: but like, you know, I want to just so. Someone
Speaker 2: was like, oh, yeah, I love that for like an
Speaker 2: easy costume, and I was like, you bitch, Oh shut up, you.
Speaker 1: Bitch, So like if you don't want to, like actually
Speaker 1: use a hot glue gun, I guess that's cool.
Speaker 4: I got the hat too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wait, speaking of animation, did I tell you I took
Speaker 1: my kids to see the Wild Robot.
Speaker 4: I have not even heard of that you haven't.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's so funny because if you're going
Speaker 1: to see any kids movies lately, like it's been the preview.
Speaker 1: It's like the big dream works like Fall movie, Like
Speaker 1: it's based on these books that people love, and Lupita
Speaker 1: Nango is the voice of the robot. Then there's like
Speaker 1: a fox and he's Pedro Pascal. But it's the books
Speaker 1: are apparently amazing, amazing, amazing. I haven't read them yet.
Speaker 1: My children are not into chapter books yet. But the
Speaker 1: movie is so good, so beautiful. I cried inces I
Speaker 1: couldn't stop crying. Rosie at one point goes, I can
Speaker 1: hear you, and I was like, yeah, I'm I mean,
Speaker 1: it wasn't like I was so but I was just
Speaker 1: sniffling and like wiping my nose because I was crying,
Speaker 1: and Rose kept looking over. It's it's in the future,
Speaker 1: and it's like a robot gets dropped into a forest
Speaker 1: by accident, like washes up from like a shipment that
Speaker 1: gets lost, and then she's just like one of these
Speaker 1: robots from the future that just does tasks and she
Speaker 1: befriends these animals and it's just it's really like, I mean,
Speaker 1: the whole movie is like it feels like a metaphor
Speaker 1: for like motherhood, but also like so many kids movies
Speaker 1: are about like how we treat the planet and what
Speaker 1: the future is going to look like and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: you know. But I was just crying, like it was
Speaker 1: so and afterwards I was like, I mean that movie
Speaker 1: should win an Oscar. Don't think everyone should want an
Speaker 1: Oscar like, and Jared was like, wow, you really loved it.
Speaker 1: I was like, you didn't love it, like it was
Speaker 1: so good, Like I was like arguing with it. He
Speaker 1: loved it. He loved it. He was like, that was excellent.
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I I'm always like sometimes I'm
Speaker 1: like some animated movies that make it into the Oscars.
Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't know this one.
Speaker 1: It's just like it's beautiful, it's gorgeous, it's wonderful.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: I really loved it. I really like it. Yeah, they
Speaker 4: really liked it too.
Speaker 2: They really liked it too.
Speaker 1: They you know, Oscar gets to a point always at
Speaker 1: a movie where he's like, Okay, it's time for me
Speaker 1: to stand up now and watch the movie while I
Speaker 1: bang on someone else's seat, and I have to stop
Speaker 1: him from doing that. He only did it for like
Speaker 1: a second and I was like, so sorry, and then
Speaker 1: he stops. But he also gets very mad and we
Speaker 1: run out of candy, like when we ran out of
Speaker 1: M and ms and he's yelling, I want more ass
Speaker 1: and we're like in a quiet movie. So I had
Speaker 1: to handle that. But besides that, they did great. They
Speaker 1: loved they loved the movie because it was like a
Speaker 1: bunch of animal talking animals and stuff like that, and
Speaker 1: it just looks really beautiful, like the actual animation is gorgeous.
Speaker 4: But yeah, fun, little fun, little hout to the movies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I haven't seen a movie in a while
Speaker 1: that I was like, I really love that. And then
Speaker 1: the next day of the weekend, I was out the
Speaker 1: whole fucking day, like dead with a cold, so sick,
Speaker 1: and uh the kids they went out and they did
Speaker 1: fun shit. But uh oh, and I went to Chuck
Speaker 1: E Cheese on Friday, so maybe that's where I got
Speaker 1: the cold.
Speaker 2: We went to Chuck E Cheese. That's actually exactly where
Speaker 2: you got it.
Speaker 1: That's where I picked up all the germs. We went
Speaker 1: to Chuck E Cheese. It was fun, it was like
Speaker 1: a pta thing and I just got with some of
Speaker 1: the moms. I know, we're all just like talking, shit,
Speaker 1: how are the PTA War's going?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Everything is going well. So did I talk about this
Speaker 1: on the podcast?
Speaker 2: I like said it kind of slow. You might have
Speaker 2: said it somewhere else or we were just talking.
Speaker 1: So I don't know anybody that sends a kid to
Speaker 1: my school listens to our podcast. But in case, I
Speaker 1: mean no, there's just like there's just there's two programs
Speaker 1: at our school, and there's sometimes people feel like they're
Speaker 1: not equal. So there was elections to be able to
Speaker 1: decide where the money goes in the school. And I
Speaker 1: ran with a bunch of moms from my class and
Speaker 1: we did win.
Speaker 4: So that was you never even told me why? Yeah,
Speaker 4: thank god, Yes we won.
Speaker 1: But it was crazy because I was I was at
Speaker 1: the last podcast network about to go live on this
Speaker 1: insane bonkers show that they do that Ed Larston hosts.
Speaker 1: That's like called Hoop a Googo, and it's like you
Speaker 1: basically are in the future. No one has names anymore,
Speaker 1: and you have to look at the brighter side of
Speaker 1: different search situations. You have to say why this is
Speaker 1: a good thing that happens, So they'll give you different
Speaker 1: situations and then the audience votes on whether who has
Speaker 1: the best answers and stuff. So I'm on this meeting
Speaker 1: for school and it's like getting down to the wire
Speaker 1: where we have to go live on this live stream
Speaker 1: and I'm like, hey, guys, like are we going to vote?
Speaker 1: Because I have to go. But I can't be like
Speaker 1: I have to be on hoop of Googo. It's like,
Speaker 1: what is my life as a parent that also does
Speaker 1: comedy stuff like that?
Speaker 2: I have to be like, but I know race, Like,
Speaker 2: was it like Bad Moms the movie?
Speaker 1: Like what was like Republicans? It was Republicans versus Democh.
Speaker 1: It was literally everybody that voted you had to say
Speaker 1: your votes out loud Lisa, so you had to go,
Speaker 1: my vote is for Lisa, Kara, Casey, Susie whatever, like
Speaker 1: that's what you had to do. And so everybody said
Speaker 1: their votes out loud. Everybody that voted for me voted
Speaker 1: for the same other four people. Everybody that voted for
Speaker 1: the other four or five people voted for them. It
Speaker 1: was right down the middle, and we just had more
Speaker 1: people that came out, so we won.
Speaker 4: But I was like better, ask, yeah, but why are
Speaker 4: we doing this?
Speaker 2: Out loud.
Speaker 1: Why is it all like some kind of voting like software.
Speaker 1: It's because it's all online. It's because it was on zoom,
Speaker 1: you know, like if it was in person, it probably
Speaker 1: would have just been like dropping a ballot into a
Speaker 1: bag or something.
Speaker 4: But yeah, it was. But it was stressful.
Speaker 1: It was stressful, like everybody was like, and then one
Speaker 1: woman tried to go, well, can Kara even win if
Speaker 1: she has to leave? Because I was going to cast
Speaker 1: my vote and then go, and they were like, can
Speaker 1: she even win if she if she has to leave?
Speaker 1: And they were like, actually, she can. She just needs
Speaker 1: to accept her nomination and then she can. But somebody
Speaker 1: was trying to get me out, like so it was
Speaker 1: school drama, like it was funny though.
Speaker 4: I think you're gonna rule. Well, I think it's gonna
Speaker 4: be good. I mean because balance I am.
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to give anybody anything.
Speaker 1: Actually, I'm trying to spread it out amongst the whole school,
Speaker 1: Like I'm not really trying to make sure any program
Speaker 1: gets more money than another program.
Speaker 2: And that's my thing. Ye know, say you're right, it's
Speaker 2: so h left wing right wing. It was absolutely like
Speaker 2: down the middle.
Speaker 1: Nobody was like we all had to give a little
Speaker 1: like introductory, not like speech, but like a couple of
Speaker 1: lines about ourselves. No one listened. No one was like, oh, wit,
Speaker 1: actually this girl's actually done a bunch of budget stuff before.
Speaker 1: Maybe we should nominate her.
Speaker 2: Like everybody just voted for who they were told to
Speaker 2: vote for when they came on.
Speaker 4: So it was, you know, school drama.
Speaker 2: Well, congratulations on your PTA win my victory.
Speaker 1: I mean it's not even part of the PTA, but
Speaker 1: thank you so much. It's like, that's how many different
Speaker 1: school groups there are. So now I'm involved in two
Speaker 1: different school groups, and I'm also the room parent, still
Speaker 1: doing that.
Speaker 2: What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do?
Speaker 2: Some people have to sit behind a desk all day.
Speaker 1: At least I have a little bit more of a
Speaker 1: job where I have a little bit of extra, you know,
Speaker 1: daytime time to go to the school, going into help
Speaker 1: with art on Friday. They need help with art, So
Speaker 1: I go in now sometimes on Fridays to help with
Speaker 1: the art projects. It's so funny. It's like twenty kids
Speaker 1: yelling Rosie's mom at me, all right, the second flag
Speaker 1: has been waived. And but I do have to say
Speaker 1: I also not okay, I've been partying like I'm like
Speaker 1: twenty four again only a few days.
Speaker 2: But it's Greek havoc on my life. I am slugging
Speaker 2: through life in a way you don't imagine. Like I've
Speaker 2: been waking up at six in the morning chugging gatorades
Speaker 2: like it's not it's not pretty. But also I have
Speaker 2: found time to watch three full complete shows in this week.
Speaker 4: So I watch did reach? Okay? So I watched a
Speaker 4: Perfect Couple? Oh, I ask you if you were watching that.
Speaker 2: I watch Nine Perfect Strangers, and I watched.
Speaker 4: How to Die Alone. Oh that's right.
Speaker 2: So How to Die Alone one of the best news
Speaker 2: shows out there. I'm a contender, like fantastic, funny, heartfelt, shocking, unique, cool,
Speaker 2: good good, it's so good. Nine Perfect Strangers, bawling all night,
Speaker 2: watched it till six in the morning. And then Perfect Couple.
Speaker 2: So many podcast people, it was kind of fun, but
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 1: The Perfect Couple written by former guest of our show,
Speaker 1: Jenna Lemia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then Michael Beach is in it, Megan fay
Speaker 2: He and you know, Dakota Fanning is having a moment.
Speaker 4: So I'm like really excited about that. Like, I'm happy
Speaker 4: to be on.
Speaker 2: Her uh her ride, and she just had like a
Speaker 2: really cool I think with the cut or some sort.
Speaker 1: Of Yeah, that's probably what I thought to where they
Speaker 1: were like she's got a long career ahead of her,
Speaker 1: and I was like, good.
Speaker 2: For you, good for you?
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I thought she's been working for decades.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're lucky to have her, and I'm happy
Speaker 2: the Fanning sisters are getting what they deserve.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, amazing. So yeah, would Perfect.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna watch that, and I'm gonna watch Natasha's I
Speaker 1: don't know if I can. You told me you don't
Speaker 1: think I should watch Perfect Strangers, right, I definitely don't
Speaker 1: think you should watch nine Perfect.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna watch any pickup and I'm gonna watch
Speaker 2: I'm gonna watch How to Dialge.
Speaker 4: I love Natasha Rothwell.
Speaker 1: We were both on a showcase once together where she
Speaker 1: was Maya Angelou drunk at a wedding was her sketch
Speaker 1: and it was so fucking funny, Like I've always thought
Speaker 1: she was so talented and I love her.
Speaker 2: I love her. Well, let's get started. I wanted to
Speaker 2: give one more, but the listeners can tell us if
Speaker 2: they disagree. I do not think Kara should watch Nine
Speaker 2: Perfect Strangers.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, and see dm us and let us know,
Speaker 1: please please, Maybe we'll do a poll.
Speaker 4: One more little plug too.
Speaker 1: I have this new advice Colin show with Jackie Zebrowski
Speaker 1: called Who's the Bitch? If you guys can subscribe and
Speaker 1: listen to it and watch it, I would love it
Speaker 1: so much.
Speaker 4: That's that.
Speaker 2: Should we get started. We've got a great guest today,
Speaker 2: We've got a great show.
Speaker 4: We do it. Okay, we are doing Blinded. Who sings
Speaker 4: by the light? Wrapped up like a the middle of
Speaker 4: the night?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: And also, what's the word they're saying, blinded by the light?
Speaker 1: It's by Manfred Man's earth Band.
Speaker 4: Shut the fuck up?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wish I was lying wrapped up like a deuce, another.
Speaker 1: Runner in the night. I never knew what they were saying.
Speaker 1: I think I thought they were always saying douche like.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what they were talking about.
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no no.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't even know those were the same songs.
Speaker 2: But now it all makes sense, all right? Blinded Blinded
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, Season nine, episode seven. We open
Speaker 2: up on one of our favorite sassy ladies in the
Speaker 2: Sview universe. Sylvia Cotter's also in the episode Contact and
Speaker 2: Quickie and Contact. We just did so if you remember
Speaker 2: the old lady there, she's back here. Yeah wait in Contact,
Speaker 2: she's the one who's Is she one of the ladies
Speaker 2: on the subway or something. Isn't she the one that
Speaker 2: was like for all the times I let it go,
Speaker 2: I said something and then someone else is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that lady should have minded her business or no, yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah yeah, oh no, Or she's the lady that brings
Speaker 2: to the apart I don't know.
Speaker 4: Is he here?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Wait, I think she's she walks someone into the apartment
Speaker 2: and has an attitude or maybe that's another elderly attitude woman.
Speaker 1: She's great, She's a great She's just a great addition
Speaker 1: to any episode. We lost her in twenty sixteen, but
Speaker 1: she's was a great addition to all svus.
Speaker 2: Yes, and there's a unique cop walking with her behind
Speaker 2: them is Lush a lush plant shop Deli Vibes bores
Speaker 2: head brand glowing in the distance. You know he collies
Speaker 2: spread recently, so I hope they've gotten that back together
Speaker 2: since then. He is not believing what she saw, and
Speaker 2: she has to remind him that she is not some
Speaker 2: senile old bitch.
Speaker 4: And I think that's in quotes.
Speaker 2: And but at the bus stop, she heard a voice
Speaker 2: from a trunk yell out help me, and then either
Speaker 2: Savannah or Samantha or something. And then he goes Sabrina
Speaker 2: and she goes, yes, so she's not crazy, actually, sir,
Speaker 2: and get to fucking work. So he goes to his
Speaker 2: hot dog guy Sanjay and is like, what up. Did
Speaker 2: you hear something? He goes, yeah, I saw a girl.
Speaker 2: She was there two hours of YadA YadA bus stop toad.
Speaker 2: So a car's been toad. He calls it in and
Speaker 2: he's on top of it. He goes, call U, s
Speaker 2: V you, there's might be like a child in the trunk.
Speaker 2: We find out that the cars were all in an
Speaker 2: impound lot. So now we're they're just checking car after
Speaker 2: car after car, and Queen's and we hear Chesterlake's voice.
Speaker 2: So that's a disappointment for this episode. And we have
Speaker 2: all hands on deck Bens and Finn's stabler Kragan. They're
Speaker 2: popping every trunk and Doyle joins them, and just so
Speaker 2: many employees gadgets beeps, there's a censor, and Doyle points
Speaker 2: them into you know, the right direction.
Speaker 4: In a trunk there's a girl.
Speaker 2: Stabler holds her and runs off because the traffic is
Speaker 2: so insane that they're I'm not going to be able
Speaker 2: to get an ambulance and so yeah, he's got to
Speaker 2: carry her and he runs you know off into the credits.
Speaker 2: So Benson and Stabler are met with the doctor who
Speaker 2: gives scoop there's a concussion, probably hit what by a rock.
Speaker 2: We'll see when she wakes up. She has been raped,
Speaker 2: no fluids, but hair's and bruising. She is only eleven.
Speaker 2: That is not a great thing to hear, right. Doc
Speaker 2: walks off and they have to figure out what's next,
Speaker 2: and Stabler suggests looking at the tapes, and Benson's like,
Speaker 2: for what we saw that she left the bookstore alone,
Speaker 2: nobody followed her. Stabler's pissed, like why the fuck did
Speaker 2: she go out there by herself? And Benson is like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe she looked for her mom. Relaxed,
Speaker 2: and then Beach hits them up and is like, hey,
Speaker 2: I got a hit on the impaula. It was rented
Speaker 2: by Saul Picard at this rental car company. He's visiting
Speaker 2: from Louisiana, so he's staying at some executive apartments on
Speaker 2: West seventy third Street, and he did sign a one
Speaker 2: month lease and we meet him. He has an accent
Speaker 2: a flannel and he returned the car yesterday and Stabler
Speaker 2: lets him know that, like, well, that's not what the
Speaker 2: rental place said. And Benson asked to pee and obviously
Speaker 2: it's a sneaky piece. She will be looking through the rooms.
Speaker 2: And then Picard is wearing suspenders and he has the
Speaker 2: release paperwork from the rental company. He returned it, so
Speaker 2: if it was stolen after that, that's not on him.
Speaker 2: There's receipts. He also gives like an alibi that he
Speaker 2: came in for work. He's been going to this bodega
Speaker 2: and yeah. Then there's like bad art on the desk
Speaker 2: and it looks like a child made it. It's an elephant.
Speaker 2: It's cute but simple. And after he sees the art,
Speaker 2: Stablers like, huh, have we met before? And the dude
Speaker 2: goes doubt it, But you know, I do come here
Speaker 2: for work every few months. I'm from New you know not.
Speaker 2: But he's not from New Orleans. He's from the north
Speaker 2: Shore off some lake, like a few hours away. They
Speaker 2: kept saying the name I was. I wasn't interested, and
Speaker 2: he is also very paranoid, so he keeps being like, wait,
Speaker 2: can I see your badges?
Speaker 4: I need your badges? What are your numbers?
Speaker 2: And then he scoffs and he's like listen, sorry, but
Speaker 2: thanks for obliging my eccentricity. And they're like, thanks for
Speaker 2: your time, and we'll figure this all out. So they
Speaker 2: leave and Picard's story checks out. He returned the car,
Speaker 2: but how did it end up at the bus stop?
Speaker 2: So Benson and Stablor get some coffees and start chats.
Speaker 2: Stabler says they ran out of spots in the garage,
Speaker 2: so the attendant left the car on the street with
Speaker 2: the keys inside, and when he came out, it was gone.
Speaker 2: And they're like, well, why not report it's stolen, and
Speaker 2: Benson goes he was scared of being fired, and I
Speaker 2: do believe he should be. And then they go to
Speaker 2: the deli and it is confirmed that he's gone to
Speaker 2: the deli at least a couple dozen times over the
Speaker 2: last three days. That's too many times, Pocard. Yeah, He's
Speaker 2: like eating.
Speaker 1: He's getting all his nutrition from a bodega, which is troublesome, but.
Speaker 2: Like I understand even a sandwich a day, even too,
Speaker 2: with some snacks. Maybe he ran in for toilet paper
Speaker 2: a couple a dozen times in three days. There's got
Speaker 2: to be another bodigo across the street. He had an
Speaker 2: inkling to try. Yeah, you're in New York City. There
Speaker 2: wasn't dumplings on the corner. I'm just a little bit shocked.
Speaker 2: But maybe it was just alibi related. I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't know. It seems like all his shit checks out though.
Speaker 2: He just he's from like he's got like a voice
Speaker 2: like benoel Blanc, kind of from the Glass Onion movies.
Speaker 2: He's like, I'm from Shreeve Paul Lasiana. Like he's like
Speaker 2: kind of one of those guys. Listen, is this dude
Speaker 2: gonna make more movies? I want more Knives Out? I'm
Speaker 2: ready for more. I'm ready for another Knives Out. I
Speaker 2: am ready. I like a lighthearted mystery. Yeah, my body
Speaker 2: is ready. I love the last one. People were shitting
Speaker 2: on it. I was like, get a life, have fun,
Speaker 2: come on, I have a good time with it. Well,
Speaker 2: I think we also had I feel like I found
Speaker 2: extra joy because our friend works with billionaire art freaks,
Speaker 2: and so is that part of her nda. I feel
Speaker 2: like ruin her business. Her name is Sally and you'll
Speaker 2: never find her. And she went to space, all right.
Speaker 2: So this motherfucker he can't stop going to the bodega
Speaker 2: and they call him a caffeine freak and a paranoid freak,
Speaker 2: which reminds me, did you ever watch the cartoon Freakazoid? No?
Speaker 4: What is that?
Speaker 2: It was just part of the animaniacs like Pinky in
Speaker 2: the Brain Hour, Like there was just another guy named
Speaker 2: freak Azoid. He doesn't This guy's kind of familiar hot,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of hot.
Speaker 1: The blue face. Steven Spielberg presents freak Azoid. That's hilarious.
Speaker 2: Steven Spielberg is so weird, Like I didn't realize he
Speaker 2: was minority report, Like he's just out there working. I
Speaker 2: can't believe he did freak Azoid. Yeah, it says, that's
Speaker 2: what it says. Two seasons. Steven Spielberg presents Freakizoid. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I came out in ninety five. I think I was
Speaker 1: I missed it. I was like fifteen or fourteen, so
Speaker 1: I missed it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't even remember what his thing was a
Speaker 2: crazy teenage superhero who fights crime good.
Speaker 4: In Washington, DC.
Speaker 2: Wow. Important. But then Benson goes, this guy's dirty. His
Speaker 2: shower was bone dry, and it's like, wait, fuck, what
Speaker 2: if I showered yesterday? Like I don't like it's when
Speaker 2: they find two wine glasses and they're like, this slut.
Speaker 4: You know, I know you're jumping.
Speaker 2: The weird conclusions, like he could have showered at the
Speaker 2: gym relaxed, bone dry? Are our bones dry? Is the
Speaker 2: blood knot flowing around them? Aren't the muscles moist on
Speaker 2: the bottle?
Speaker 4: I think it.
Speaker 1: Maybe is implying like a dead body bone, like if
Speaker 1: it's buried for long years, like a bone lasts for
Speaker 1: a long time.
Speaker 2: And it's dry. I don't know, got it, got it,
Speaker 2: cut it whatever? The bedroom was messy again, stop judging.
Speaker 2: But no sign that Sabrina was there, So we got
Speaker 2: to go back to the Impala.
Speaker 4: That's all we got.
Speaker 2: Doyle found pollen on the driver's seat and on her clothing,
Speaker 2: and the sample is so small it could only come
Speaker 2: from close contacts. It cannot be circumstantial. And it's from
Speaker 2: the south and it's from where this motherfucker's from. They
Speaker 2: had him and they let him go. They bust back
Speaker 2: into the apartment, clear, clear, clear, everything is gone. And
Speaker 2: so what they finally figure out is, oh, he returned
Speaker 2: the car, but then when he left the building he
Speaker 2: saw the key's still in the ignition. He stole the
Speaker 2: car right back. So they really screwed up the investigation.
Speaker 2: But I like this SBU moment when a guy gets
Speaker 2: away with it and then they realize it was him
Speaker 2: all along. They have this a few times where they like,
Speaker 2: I like, I like this little trope.
Speaker 1: And I like when they admit that they fucked up.
Speaker 1: They're like, we had him and we let him go.
Speaker 1: Like I liked when they admit their fallibility.
Speaker 2: But Craigan was He was supportive. He's not as mad
Speaker 2: as he could have been for this. He didn't yell.
Speaker 2: He was just like, you know what, no press, but
Speaker 2: DNA not in the system. And the Phibbies, which I
Speaker 2: assume is the FBI, have nothing on him. And that's
Speaker 2: from Finn. Finn calls him the phibbies, and I like
Speaker 2: that so much. Lake comes in and is like, well,
Speaker 2: it could be his first crime, and Finn's like, no,
Speaker 2: you would commit your first crime closer to home where
Speaker 2: he's more comfortable, not make a huge crime trip out
Speaker 2: of it. Munch Waltz is in and says, did her
Speaker 2: friends at the car rental mention they gave him a
Speaker 2: Blue Ford Explorer yesterday afternoon around three pm?
Speaker 4: No, they did not. What the fuck is going on?
Speaker 2: He also didn't actually check out of the apartment, and
Speaker 2: he has not bought any tickets to leave town, so
Speaker 2: he is sticking around town. Everyone's on alert. We're looking
Speaker 2: for a blue Explorer. Holy shit. Benson gets a call
Speaker 2: and Sabrina's awake. She needs, like, you know, a nose
Speaker 2: tube to help breathe and her around the head. Bandage
Speaker 2: goes above the head as well. It's a little more
Speaker 2: aggressive than my liking. She is a very insured, full
Speaker 2: scalp head helmet and a lot of gus. But she's
Speaker 2: talking very good. So she was looking at books at
Speaker 2: this bookstore when he a card came up to her
Speaker 2: and was like, hey, and your mom's in danger.
Speaker 4: You gotta come for me. Your mom's waiting for you.
Speaker 2: So they go outside from the coffee place bookstore situation,
Speaker 2: but she wasn't outside and then and that's why they
Speaker 2: couldn't find her on the camera. It's kind of I
Speaker 2: think it's a Barnes and Noble so part coffee part bookstore.
Speaker 2: They walk out of the coffee part. That's why it
Speaker 2: wasn't on the camera or anything like that if you
Speaker 2: were wondering. And then she gave him her address because
Speaker 2: he's like, hey, I'll take you home. Your mom was hurt,
Speaker 2: but you know, and then he drove in the wrong directions.
Speaker 2: The doors were locked, and he she said, he kept
Speaker 2: saying harke into the arc and she didn't really understand him.
Speaker 2: And Stabler gets a call. He steps out, Benson shows
Speaker 2: a bunch of mugshots. She does point out mister Picard,
Speaker 2: New Orleans, and she goes but he said his name
Speaker 2: was William. Okay, So then Sabrina's like, I remember being
Speaker 2: at a park. I tried to run, but he kept
Speaker 2: yelling hey he stopped Franz scene. So then Stabler enters
Speaker 2: back into and is like, Benson, come out of the
Speaker 2: hospital room. We got work to do. So Benson goes, hey,
Speaker 2: little girl, you rest all you tomorrow. Dramatic music, Another
Speaker 2: fucking girl's been kidnapped. They run off her name is
Speaker 2: Eve holland she's eleven. The mom was nextra shopping for
Speaker 2: clothes and it happened back at the bookstore. So we're
Speaker 2: at the kids section of the bookstore and the employee
Speaker 2: is sassy, emo fun like he is just like, uh huh.
Speaker 2: He looked like a freak, like I enjoy his energy.
Speaker 2: He definitely looks like he works at a bookstore and
Speaker 2: he shook but serving and this is definitely his day job,
Speaker 2: though he has a passion. He's pursuing a life in
Speaker 2: the arts or to you know, write skateboard articles. They
Speaker 2: go to the area where the girl was last scene,
Speaker 2: the little kid book area. Sailor picks up a book
Speaker 2: and it's Quintin's Quest by William S Falstaff and he goes,
Speaker 2: wait and I know this book, and the sassy employee goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: you and everyone else you a loser, and then boom,
Speaker 2: Benson is in. She saw on the tape pitcard escorting
Speaker 2: Eve out of their forty five minutes ago. We have
Speaker 2: to find her. Then Sabler says, son of a bitch,
Speaker 2: and we look and he's in the book jacket Saw
Speaker 2: pocard Is William is the childbook author and rapist. So
Speaker 2: they go back to Harken the Arc and the book
Speaker 2: is called The Secret of the Arch. So then they're like, fuck, okay,
Speaker 2: this actually pisses me off. So then Stable goes, oh,
Speaker 2: the rd Triumph in Paris, and Sandler's like, we can't.
Speaker 2: He couldn't have taken her to Paris, And Benson has
Speaker 2: to be like, you dumb bitch, there's one in Washington
Speaker 2: Square Park.
Speaker 4: How does Stable or not? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Stable doesn't know that there's an arc to Triomphe
Speaker 1: in Washington Square Park, but he does know alphabetically like
Speaker 1: every single Catholic school in all the boroughs.
Speaker 2: I don't buy this. I don't buy this at all.
Speaker 2: Like I just think of that arch immediate.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I didn't even know it was a copy of a
Speaker 2: French one. I'll be honest. That was the Washington Square Arch.
Speaker 2: Finn goes, you know there's a fake Leaning Tower of
Speaker 2: Pisa next to Skokie. Well, that's that's not in Italy.
Speaker 2: It's by the Costco. Oh, that's that's really funny. I
Speaker 2: love to go to see that.
Speaker 4: We have to.
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm gonna make it to Pisa,
Speaker 2: but I think I'll probably be around Skokie sooner rather
Speaker 2: than later.
Speaker 4: Oh is Pisa down?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he says a city in Italy. That's where the
Speaker 1: tower is. I've never been there though, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: Oh you know that show Subway Take. I guess I
Speaker 1: shouldn't ruin it. I finally think I have a subway take.
Speaker 1: You watched that internet show?
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, I've seen it. Jared was
Speaker 2: just on it right.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think Crembroulet is the most overrated dessert.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, my mouth is on the floor. You
Speaker 1: guys can't, so is Casey. It's one of my faves.
Speaker 1: It's one of my faves. I love it so much.
Speaker 1: It's just like I'd rather have pudding get out of here,
Speaker 1: but with the crunchy sugary top. Oh see, that's what
Speaker 1: sells me, the pudding whatever. It's like, I'm sold on
Speaker 1: the crunchy sugar that I get to eat. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then mixed with the mush because it's like the coumbo
Speaker 1: of the textures for me. But yeah, I mean that
Speaker 1: is a good take. I feel that people are gonna
Speaker 1: be people are gonna come for you. I mean, I'm shocked,
Speaker 1: but I'm not mad.
Speaker 4: You know. Yeah, it's one of my nephew's favorites.
Speaker 2: I'm one of my friends just had a crumberlay donut
Speaker 2: and I was just like, oh, I love a Crumberwlay donut.
Speaker 2: Like if I see it on a menu, I'm like, yes,
Speaker 2: maybe I'm getting dessert tonight.
Speaker 4: Like, and I don't always do.
Speaker 2: Dessert, but what I do? I love a crumbrulet. Okay,
Speaker 2: And then but Finn is like, wait, Washington Square Park,
Speaker 2: there's nowhere to hide. And then Lake goes, wait, there's
Speaker 2: an arch in Brooklyn at Prospect Park. So they rush
Speaker 2: to the arch there and is that a fake arch?
Speaker 2: Is that a replica arch? Or is that an original arch?
Speaker 2: Which one the Grand Army Plaza? Is that what it's called,
Speaker 2: the one by the Prosa Park. I don't know if
Speaker 2: that arch is a replica. Should I look it up
Speaker 2: really quick?
Speaker 5: Nah?
Speaker 4: I mean we're here.
Speaker 2: There's beautiful arches everywhere. So they rush. They're driving on
Speaker 2: the grass. They're meeting a bunch of people already on
Speaker 2: the scene, lots of manpower chopper in the air. Sabler, though,
Speaker 2: convinces the lieutenant on duty to let him go first
Speaker 2: into the parking Woods because we don't know how this
Speaker 2: man operates in the commotion and big manhunt choppers might
Speaker 2: scare him off. And Lieutenant says okay, So Stabler and
Speaker 2: Benson approach with guns to the Ford Explorer. We find
Speaker 2: the girl in the back seat sleeping, and he's in
Speaker 2: the front seat sleeping. No rush, no urgency, full relaxed sleep.
Speaker 2: He's mumbling. Stabler tells him to shut the fuck up,
Speaker 2: then cuffs his ass outside and Benson tells talks to
Speaker 2: even the back seat, and she's being very gentle, and
Speaker 2: you know, the girl's like, I'm tired, and he's just mumbling,
Speaker 2: blubbering away. Benson takes the girl, Stabler drags Picard and
Speaker 2: asks how he got her to fall asleep. He says,
Speaker 2: Alice swallowed one of the cakes and she was delighted
Speaker 2: to find she began shrinking. So, you know, he's talking
Speaker 2: about Alice in Wonderland. And I don't know if you
Speaker 2: know this, but Travis Kelcey on his podcast admitted that
Speaker 2: he thought her name was Alice Wonderland. Mcke didn't realize
Speaker 2: did you think it was Alison Wonderland, Yes, that's what
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's so funny. Alice in Wonderland.
Speaker 1: We love that girl, Allie, Yeah, that's really funny.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's not a princess.
Speaker 2: I feel like Alice doesn't get the like respect she deserves.
Speaker 2: She traveled through realms, like I'm sorry she didn't have
Speaker 2: a crown, but we don't get as much merch for her.
Speaker 4: No, only the little weird goth girls like her.
Speaker 2: But Stabler's asking real questions and then this guy's responding
Speaker 2: with nonsense, babbel. Sabbler's trying to you know, get you know,
Speaker 2: the Miranda rights out and this guy just keeps babbling politics, cars, whatever.
Speaker 2: And then a driving billboard catches his ibe. He stares
Speaker 2: it down as it drives past, and it says Winter's coming.
Speaker 2: Time to escape, So it's probably vacation, but it also
Speaker 2: could be Game of Thrones.
Speaker 4: But I think this is too early.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, So he takes the billboard as a personal
Speaker 2: message and he goes, ah, do I have to do it?
Speaker 2: And he's like, it's really gonna be hard, but I
Speaker 2: gotta get away, and so he had butt Stabler one
Speaker 2: of Kara's favorite scenes, and he crushes the back of
Speaker 2: his head into the back seat window glass. Everywhere he
Speaker 2: hits the crowd the ground, there is no crowd. He
Speaker 2: is not surfing on the hands of anyone. But but
Speaker 2: Card starts running hands tied behind his back, which I
Speaker 2: feel like is a cool exercise. I bet that like
Speaker 2: really works your abs. I mean dangerous you might fall
Speaker 2: on your face. But yeah, because sometimes on the soul
Speaker 2: cycle bike, I'll put my hands behind my back during
Speaker 2: like really hard resistance to take it to the limit.
Speaker 1: Just oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, interesting because you
Speaker 1: just want to like get your hand, like change your
Speaker 1: posture and like get your hands off those bars for
Speaker 1: a sec.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The if you stand up stating the resistance is how
Speaker 2: you feel it more in your abs. Yeah, like you
Speaker 2: have to use more stuff. And my you know you
Speaker 2: got my abs are not strong and a capacity in
Speaker 2: any way, and so that's that is far back problems
Speaker 2: and we got to keep our backs.
Speaker 4: So I also have I mean weak abs. I got all.
Speaker 2: But I knew a girl who got injured because she
Speaker 2: only did abs like a llah Britney spears in high
Speaker 2: school and then she injured her back because all of
Speaker 2: our abs were so Britney speared out, but no one
Speaker 2: was focusing on their back eow. I never knew about that. Yeah, so,
Speaker 2: and I barely do anything else, so I tried to smart.
Speaker 2: I'm learning. I am really learning a lot. I did
Speaker 2: not understand. I did go to school for a few
Speaker 2: semesters to be a PE teacher.
Speaker 4: So that's just something we got, you know, physiology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when we were in Palm Springs, it came out
Speaker 2: that I was like a PE major, and one of
Speaker 2: the people there was like, we could tell with your
Speaker 2: skills playing five hundred that we were born to be
Speaker 2: a gym teacher. You know. I left scraped my legs
Speaker 2: look like I was in recess. I have like bloody
Speaker 2: marks all over my legs. They're so bruised up from
Speaker 2: that weekend from climbing in and out of the hot
Speaker 2: tub on those rocks. Oh yeah, And I was playing
Speaker 2: monkey in the middle and I had to rush out
Speaker 2: of the pool and I was actually proud of myself.
Speaker 4: I could.
Speaker 2: I didn't know I was physically capable of it, but
Speaker 2: I pushed myself fully out in one thing and put
Speaker 2: my leg out to try to win.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone was shocked late so beat me, but like
Speaker 2: I pulled myself out in one swoop and not even
Speaker 2: my knee. I put my full foot like. I was like, wait,
Speaker 2: it was exciting. That's a really exciting movie moment. I
Speaker 2: could not do that. Yeah, I didn't think I could either.
Speaker 2: I bet if you because you're competitive, I bet if
Speaker 2: you were in the game, you would do.
Speaker 1: If it was achieve a greater good. Yeah I might.
Speaker 1: I might, yeah, for the glory.
Speaker 2: But also while we were in the pool, every time
Speaker 2: I would stand somewhere, I'd be like, oh, let's oh
Speaker 2: two monkeys or a monkey, and someone was like, do
Speaker 2: you only see people as monkey? Stop it, We're not monkeys.
Speaker 2: We're just standing here, and be like I'll be the monkey.
Speaker 2: They're like, we're not even playing this, but we both
Speaker 2: like games, so yeah, it makes sense, all right?
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 2: So basically, the guy gets the message, she goes, do
Speaker 2: I have to do it? It's gonna be hard. He
Speaker 2: crashes into Stablers. Stabler's hurt, and Pocard is off running.
Speaker 2: He then runs with his hands tied behind his back,
Speaker 2: which to me is tough tough, so he doesn't get far.
Speaker 2: He does get caught, apprehended, and then they bring him
Speaker 2: to the hospital because he is fucked up. Benson runs
Speaker 2: to help Elliot. She cradles him and says, you're gonna
Speaker 2: be okay. He has limp and lifeless in her arms.
Speaker 2: He wakes up with nose tubes. A lot of nose
Speaker 2: tubes in this episode, if you want to do a
Speaker 2: drinking game. Kathy screams he's awake. Benson runs in Welcome
Speaker 2: Back al and he says, what's going on? And there's
Speaker 2: bruises around his eyes. He can't see where Benson is.
Speaker 2: Kathy looks worried. He then he's panicering it's all a blur.
Speaker 2: I can't see, I can't see. He grabs her hand,
Speaker 2: wife or partner, We don't know, I wrote her. So
Speaker 2: he starts sits here up and think about his future
Speaker 2: blind life, and Benson tears up thinking about it too.
Speaker 2: So now it's the doctor presentation time. He hit his
Speaker 2: head so hard that his head bounced in a like
Speaker 2: in the skull front and back. Contusions and bruises and
Speaker 2: mostly occipital lobe damage and that's where the eye sight is.
Speaker 2: And it's not uncommon with an injury like this for
Speaker 2: there to be temporary blindness. She says, do not panic.
Speaker 2: Hopefully a couple of days. Uh oh, Finn is there.
Speaker 2: There is a problem in Pricard's room. Kraigan goes running
Speaker 2: over there, while Benson is like, hey, you said should return.
Speaker 4: Is there a chance it won't?
Speaker 2: And the doc is like, listen, hopefully it'll be chill,
Speaker 2: but we'll know in a few days, like I'm not
Speaker 2: a magician.
Speaker 4: And then what do we have in Picard's room?
Speaker 2: Special Agent Wayne Nelson And he looks like Gronk's uncle
Speaker 2: and he's trying to take over, and Craigan says, hell, no, bitch,
Speaker 2: and Finn looks menacing behind him, and the FBI guy
Speaker 2: is like, he moved between state lions, from Mississippi to Louisiana.
Speaker 2: He kidnapped a girl in Mississippi, raped hero in Louisiana,
Speaker 2: and left her there to die.
Speaker 4: We will be taking him.
Speaker 2: They're swabbing him in the background, hoping all the DNA matches,
Speaker 2: and we cut to Munch giving a report. So the
Speaker 2: girl from Mississippi, Tiffany La March, nine years old. Fuck
Speaker 2: so this only happened a week ago. She was found
Speaker 2: four days ago, barely alive. So then dian neil Waltz
Speaker 2: is in with a giant brown belt on top of
Speaker 2: a white button down shirt. It is not holding any
Speaker 2: pant up. This is a fashion belt of the times
Speaker 2: if I've ever seen one.
Speaker 4: You're actually dressed like her right now?
Speaker 2: Really?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 4: Oh it's great.
Speaker 2: It looked white and she was wearing a brown sweater
Speaker 2: with the brown belt. But then the waves, you know,
Speaker 2: you both have like similar oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but of course hers were colorly challenged. And they're charging
Speaker 2: per card with interstate kit, you know. And then it's like, wait,
Speaker 2: but who called the feds? Nobody knows. They're blaming each other.
Speaker 2: You did it, No you didn't, but fuck that. We
Speaker 2: didn't know how to get him back. So they don't
Speaker 2: know how to get him back. But what the the
Speaker 2: FBI is doing. They're dropping the Mississi Mississippi charges of
Speaker 2: kidnapping to charge him with rape in Louisiana because there,
Speaker 2: if you rape a child under twelve, that's a capital
Speaker 2: crime and he would get the death penalty and be murdered.
Speaker 2: And so she's chatting with Murdoch Dianiel Casey Novak, and
Speaker 2: Casey's passionate and she's just like not into.
Speaker 4: The death penalty.
Speaker 2: She's sick of the FBI trying to push their identity
Speaker 2: or agenda, not their identity.
Speaker 4: I'm sick of the FBI, and they're pronouns.
Speaker 2: Okay, so these phibbies, these hib beats, And he's like, baby,
Speaker 2: take it easy, this is great. The Feds can take it.
Speaker 2: But a being bought a boom. But he doesn't get it,
Speaker 2: and she doesn't want them abusing their power. And she
Speaker 2: doesn't have illegal standing to stop him, but he does
Speaker 2: as Card's attorney, since they want to extradite him under
Speaker 2: the table and that's violation of due process. And they
Speaker 2: both scurry like little guys excited to fuck things up
Speaker 2: when have fun with the law.
Speaker 4: They both have the same passion, I would say.
Speaker 2: And she wants Huang to evaluate him, and he's down,
Speaker 2: and so let's get Huong time. Why did you attack Stabler?
Speaker 2: He brings up the sign and bad He's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: but a lot of people see that sign. And he's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: but I knew the message was for me. I see
Speaker 2: a lot of messages. The lighting is so damn dark,
Speaker 2: and this scene in the jail, it needs to screw
Speaker 2: on any light bulb. They've got a candle burning in
Speaker 2: the corner it's wild.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: He mentions France and his sister, and that's who's sending
Speaker 2: him messages because those boys raped her. Obviously, there's dramatic
Speaker 2: music and he starts expeliating his past. He came home
Speaker 2: from school one day and he heard them upstairs. They
Speaker 2: looked crazed. I mean, he looks crazy to explaining it.
Speaker 2: The boys also looks crazed because they were taking turns
Speaker 2: on her. He was crying, she was screaming for help,
Speaker 2: but he did nothing. He froze, he couldn't move. He
Speaker 2: doesn't get why they did that. She was only eleven
Speaker 2: and he was seventeen. And he was never the same
Speaker 2: after that, and that was his first psychotic break. He
Speaker 2: then went on meds, but they stopped working last year
Speaker 2: after Franccene died and he started seeing those boys again.
Speaker 2: In the bookstore in Gulf Court, he saw Franccene and
Speaker 2: she was in the store reading the you know, his book,
Speaker 2: and those boys gathered around her. She was in danger,
Speaker 2: so he took her somewhere safe. But they found him,
Speaker 2: he says, and he's like two of them held me down.
Speaker 2: One raped her and he couldn't do anything. But then
Speaker 2: he set a trap and took Francene to New York
Speaker 2: and you know they would follow him.
Speaker 4: And after luring them to the arc, and this time
Speaker 4: they came.
Speaker 2: When they came to rape her, he was ready and
Speaker 2: I beat them with rocks, he said, and then you
Speaker 2: know they ran. He's acting like a tough guy and
Speaker 2: he nods and goes, yeah, and I saved fran scene
Speaker 2: and I made things right, so we got a lot
Speaker 2: on her hands. Bead Wong is now pouring coffee, being like,
Speaker 2: this is not a peedo. This is a schizo. And
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if he said that or
Speaker 2: I said that. Okay, So he kidnapped them because he
Speaker 2: thinks they are Francine And Casey's like, okay, and will
Speaker 2: he realize that you know that he's the one who
Speaker 2: did it. B. D Wong's like, it's possible, but he
Speaker 2: might not. In case He's like, well, we have to
Speaker 2: figure it out and wait till the meds, you know,
Speaker 2: kick in to figure shit out. And B. D Wong
Speaker 2: is like the death of his sister might have fucked
Speaker 2: it all up and the meds would never work again.
Speaker 2: And Casey's like, wait, are you telling me that he's
Speaker 2: not going to be able to stand trial, and B D.
Speaker 2: Wong is like, wait, hold up, you're actually considering putting
Speaker 2: him through one and she goes yeah, fuck yes, and
Speaker 2: he's like no, he thinks he saved her and he
Speaker 2: belongs in a hospital.
Speaker 4: This is a very complicated episode.
Speaker 2: Casey said, I will take that into consideration, but he pleads,
Speaker 2: like putting him in prison is as bad as you know,
Speaker 2: being executed, and you know he is sick. So you know,
Speaker 2: I disagree with Wong. I disagree it's too many victims.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, like the children deserve justice, but what is justice.
Speaker 2: It's it's very complicated. I need a break to think. No,
Speaker 2: so okay, and I'm done. Okay, So Casey's only barely listen.
Speaker 2: Oh Casey, look you know what, Casey, I have a
Speaker 2: compliment for you. I was watching Nodding Hill on a
Speaker 2: plane and I think you give off Hugh Grant vibes.
Speaker 4: You've got that before? Have I told him that before?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: No, I just said, I bet he's gotten it before.
Speaker 4: Oh you know, I used to get that.
Speaker 2: I feel like that was a very common thing for
Speaker 2: like my friend's moms to tell me when I was
Speaker 2: like twelve.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, ew, those moms are creeps. Those moms
Speaker 4: were like, Hi, Casey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, come in for a cookie, Hugh Grant Junior.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm making I'm acting like I
Speaker 1: am part of the problem. I'm making fun of Casey
Speaker 1: right now, being like, it's funny if old moms hit
Speaker 1: on you. It's not funny if dads do that to
Speaker 1: little girls. But I'm here being part of the problem
Speaker 1: that it's funny for a little pervy mom to be.
Speaker 2: Hitting on Casey. I stand correct, and I'm calling myself out.
Speaker 2: I know when I throw that Casey. But I'm also
Speaker 2: imagining Casey dressed as a little Hugh Grant, you know,
Speaker 2: like there's a pressure certainly well, and just stumbling through
Speaker 2: his words.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, but Casey's only barely listening to Bedie Wong on
Speaker 2: her flip phone because she's finding out that the Feds
Speaker 2: actually we're like, fine, take him, I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 2: So Bdi Wong is like, okay, but even if the
Speaker 2: federal charges are dropped, Louisiana is still going to try
Speaker 2: to get him in New York. And she's just like, fuck, Louisiana,
Speaker 2: I want to dance. So then my favorite transition is like,
Speaker 2: so she does we all conference, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: She's trying to get the media circus going. She's trying
Speaker 2: to get get a bunch of stuff. So it's like paparazzi.
Speaker 2: What's it not paparazzi. It's the news. It's the news.
Speaker 2: The press, yeah, the press, full court press. And it's
Speaker 2: one of my favorite transitions where she's doing the interview
Speaker 2: on the TV screen and then it like pops up
Speaker 2: and people are watching the TV and who's watching it?
Speaker 2: Casey alone in her office. She's just watching herself alone
Speaker 2: on the news. So old man Murdoch catches her and
Speaker 2: they start playing some law games. Louisiana is already playing games.
Speaker 2: Everyone wants him, doesn't want him all at once, but
Speaker 2: they won't. You know what's gonna happen is Saul Picard.
Speaker 2: But basically Saul wants to talk to Casey and she obliges,
Speaker 2: of course, so buzz and we're at Rikers. The buzz
Speaker 2: is the opening of the the jail cell if you
Speaker 2: were confused, and he is sad and looks like, you know,
Speaker 2: nothing left in his head. The medication's working and he's
Speaker 2: beginning to understand what he did, and he wants to
Speaker 2: stay sorry to the girls, and he wants to be
Speaker 2: sent to Louisiana because he wants the death penalty. I
Speaker 2: don't deserve to live, don't you understand? And she gets it,
Speaker 2: but he's like, if my death stops one pervert to
Speaker 2: not do what I did to those girls, it's worth it.
Speaker 4: Both lawyers don't know what to do.
Speaker 2: Diane Neil is really acting here, and so now the
Speaker 2: lawyers are fighting. Murdock's like, you can't put him on trial,
Speaker 2: and Casey goes, I don't have a and just because
Speaker 2: he SKITZO doesn't mean he can't stand trial. And he's like,
Speaker 2: Saul is crazy, and she goes, then go file a
Speaker 2: seven thirty hearing the lawyer can't. Murdoch can't do it
Speaker 2: because Picard won't let him and he has to abide
Speaker 2: by his client's wishes. But she doesn't have to, so like,
Speaker 2: you file the seven thirty. And so she's like, oh,
Speaker 2: now you need a favor, and it's like, yes, you're
Speaker 2: all doing each other's jobs, and go do it. So
Speaker 2: she wants him charged, Murdoch says, then have him plead
Speaker 2: guilty and then he'll just go to a menstal institution.
Speaker 2: And she's like, you think Jack McCoy is gonna let
Speaker 2: me get away with this, You're crazy. So he questions
Speaker 2: her integrity and her boss and she should do the
Speaker 2: right thing, and she gets right in his face, you
Speaker 2: want to talk about the right thing. Saltpacard raped an
Speaker 2: eleven year old girl and beat her within an inch
Speaker 2: of her life. So Murdoch goes no, and points to
Speaker 2: Song goes that's Salpicard. That's not the same man who
Speaker 2: rapes Sabrina Farber in case. He takes a deep breath
Speaker 2: and walks off. So we're back at the squadroom. Chester
Speaker 2: Lake is like, I mean, that is a good point.
Speaker 2: You know, the fairy tales in his head hurt the girl,
Speaker 2: not him. And I don't know if he's being sarcastic
Speaker 2: or not here because he's a bad actor. But but
Speaker 2: Finn jumps in and if he was on his meds,
Speaker 2: he wouldn't have done that, and then Beach is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: but he doesn't know that he's not taking his meds.
Speaker 4: And then Finn is like, well then we force feed
Speaker 4: the meds.
Speaker 2: I don't give a fuck, like Finn gets very dictatorship
Speaker 2: like vibes. He's just like, take the pedophiles and force
Speaker 2: feed them pills and cut off their dicks.
Speaker 1: But this is like so many cases they've done on
Speaker 1: this show, like the woman who has the tumor that's
Speaker 1: making her of sex with like a twelve year old boy,
Speaker 1: like the the guy who's got syphilis untreated and it
Speaker 1: turns him into a murderer. Like all these things are like, well,
Speaker 1: when they take their meds, they're just normal law biding citizens,
Speaker 1: and when they don't, they're murderous monsters.
Speaker 4: So I don't know what, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it is that s Few loves to
Speaker 1: present you with this conundrum.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And and they're never consistent with the results,
Speaker 2: Like you know, the detective's opinions aren't consistent, the law
Speaker 2: is not consistent, like they just do whatever.
Speaker 4: You know, he was drunk, he can't be charged.
Speaker 2: He was drunk charge him, so we know, you know,
Speaker 2: we never know blah blah blah blah bah. Benson asks
Speaker 2: if Casey, if she can prove this in court and
Speaker 2: get him, and she goes, if I put Sabrina on
Speaker 2: this sweetness stand that's all I need. And she's like,
Speaker 2: but do we let Louisiana take him or not? And
Speaker 2: she's like, they all argue about the death penalty and
Speaker 2: it's all on Casey and she wants Elliott on the stand.
Speaker 2: She thinks that's gonna help to show what he could
Speaker 2: do to Elliott, to prove that he is dangerous. And
Speaker 2: Benson goes, no, he can't leave his house until his
Speaker 2: vision's back, doctor's orders.
Speaker 4: Casey goes no, yes to up here in court.
Speaker 2: Benson stands up from her desk and goes, okay, Casey,
Speaker 2: we can't stress him out, you know, being chill helps recovery.
Speaker 2: And it gets spicy, and Casey goes, okay, I'll go
Speaker 2: talk to him myself, and Benson screams leave him alone, Casey,
Speaker 2: and she goes, I can't and scurries out. Knock, knock, knock.
Speaker 2: He opens the door. He's bruised up. He's in a
Speaker 2: gray T shirt. He look even though he's bruised. Casey
Speaker 2: walks in. She wants to drag him to court. He chuckles.
Speaker 2: Benson already gave him a heads up that she's coming.
Speaker 2: He says, I'm a big boy and he's about to
Speaker 2: have a child in a month and not being able
Speaker 2: to see that child terrified me.
Speaker 4: So Picard bring him on. It's personal.
Speaker 2: So we're in court, Stabler's giving a blow by blow
Speaker 2: of the head butt. He does a dramatic taking out
Speaker 2: of glasses to point to Pocard and then puts the
Speaker 2: glasses away really fast. I'm like, just keep the glasses on,
Speaker 2: but maybe it's too much pressure on the eyes. But
Speaker 2: he does consider him dangerous. So now dramatic music plays
Speaker 2: and she is actually using him fuck Casey Novak. So
Speaker 2: she's like, he saw the sign that Picard made him,
Speaker 2: you know, distraught, and in his experience as a cop,
Speaker 2: does how he act after he saw the sign qualify
Speaker 2: as EDP? And Stabler gives her a nasty look like
Speaker 2: he hates this bitch, and she makes him explain what
Speaker 2: an EDP is because he says yeah, and then it's
Speaker 2: he goes it's an emotionally disturbed person and this is
Speaker 2: a fucking twist. So then she gets loud an type
Speaker 2: of card. Did he utter the name fran scene No?
Speaker 2: Did he mention when whenness sing his sister or is rape?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 4: Did he say it was his fault? No?
Speaker 2: And he goes, and then Picard goes off and goes,
Speaker 2: why should I, Why should I trust God? You made
Speaker 2: me rape those girls. He's yelling up to franccene in
Speaker 2: the sky stop testing me. Fran scene and screams at
Speaker 2: the core. He's crying and being dragged out of the
Speaker 2: courtroom and obviously it's a mistrial. Benson has pissed, and
Speaker 2: then the sassy judge says, hey, before this freak show
Speaker 2: comes up again. He warns Novak and goes, you better
Speaker 2: do a fucking seven thirty hearing and to see if
Speaker 2: he can even stand trial. And Stabler walks off and
Speaker 2: yells at her and goes, what was that And she
Speaker 2: denies doing anything except her job, and he knows she
Speaker 2: never wanted to try that guy, and that's the whole
Speaker 2: fucking point, and he goes, cut the crap you used me.
Speaker 4: He falls over, Benson catches him.
Speaker 2: She gives a death stare to Novak, and Novak's maybe
Speaker 2: having a but like can't identify it, but she does
Speaker 2: feel bad for using her friends to get like a
Speaker 2: mistrial for a rapist. So then she's in her office
Speaker 2: hanging up the phone and Benson blazes in you proud
Speaker 2: of yourself And then she and then Benson opens Casey's
Speaker 2: desk stower and pulls out a photo and goes, where
Speaker 2: is he? Huh, where's your schizoex boyfriend? Is he locked
Speaker 2: up somewhere? And she says, get out of my office,
Speaker 2: and then Benson goes, you take that case on purpose.
Speaker 2: He deserves to be punished, and she then is like,
Speaker 2: punished for the rapes or for what he did to Elliott.
Speaker 2: She says, you manipulated me and Elliott to satisfy your
Speaker 2: own agenda. And Casey's like, okay, and then did you
Speaker 2: leak that we caught Picard? Did you go back to
Speaker 2: the Feds? How did you figure that out? She goes, oh,
Speaker 2: you damn right, I told the Feds. She goes, I
Speaker 2: want justice, and Casey goes, you don't want justice, you
Speaker 2: want revenge. And she says, it's my case and how
Speaker 2: I handle it it's none of your damn business because
Speaker 2: I don't answer to you, well you know who she
Speaker 2: does answer.
Speaker 4: To, Jack McCoy. But don't you think that.
Speaker 2: That's also kind of not an Olivia move, that Olivia
Speaker 2: would go behind her back and have this guy extradited
Speaker 2: to Louisiana to be executed.
Speaker 4: That just doesn't really feel like Olivia. Like Olivia's style.
Speaker 2: No, but they love to show how they fuck up
Speaker 2: to protect each other, you know, like yeah with that, So.
Speaker 1: Why does she think She's like I wanted justice for
Speaker 1: these girls? Like why do you think these girls aren
Speaker 1: going to get justice in New York at that point,
Speaker 1: at the point that you phoned the Feds, like you
Speaker 1: didn't know she wasn't gonna get justice. Nothing had happened yet,
Speaker 1: you know, It's true, feels like a weird Olivia move,
Speaker 1: just pointing that out, Yeah, because she never likes the fhibbies. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's like, I don't think of Olivia as I
Speaker 1: think that's something Stabler would do, you know, be like
Speaker 1: get her down of the South Frya's ass. I could
Speaker 1: see Stabler doing that. I don't see Benson doing that,
Speaker 1: but you know whatever. And guess who I love seeing
Speaker 1: Jack McCoy, I really do.
Speaker 2: I love and he's it made me want to visit
Speaker 2: the original, Like he's dynamic, he's so good. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: he is not happy that she changed the case and
Speaker 2: acted like his defense attorney. She goes, he goes the
Speaker 2: judge called me and he hands her a paper. She's like,
Speaker 2: who gave this? And she asks who gave this to him?
Speaker 2: And he says, who gives a shit? Five years ago,
Speaker 2: cops responded to a disturbance call in your apartment, and
Speaker 2: you told them it was a mistake. But that wasn't true,
Speaker 2: was it, Casey? And she says, yeah, my fiancee, Charlie
Speaker 2: attacked me when he was off his meds. They wanted
Speaker 2: to arrest him, but she wanted to help him, so
Speaker 2: she identified herself as an eighty eight and begged them
Speaker 2: not to take him in. And he goes, you abuse
Speaker 2: your authority of the office for personal reasons, then, like
Speaker 2: you are now and he and she goes, well, I'm
Speaker 2: she goes sick people like saulpi Cards shouldn't be put
Speaker 2: to death and he says yeah, that's why he has
Speaker 2: a defense attorney. And she is She's like, listen, I'm
Speaker 2: pro hospital. I don't give a I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 2: But she's in trouble and he says you better behave
Speaker 2: yourself and you don't and if you don't, not only
Speaker 2: will I fire you, I'll make sure the bar yankster
Speaker 2: license and she looks sad. She tears up and walks
Speaker 2: off Benson's porn coffee is late at night, and Novak
Speaker 2: rushes in, why did you rap me out to the
Speaker 2: DA and Benson goes, because you threw the case and
Speaker 2: she says she didn't have a choice after you told
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 4: She goes, I didn't have a choice.
Speaker 2: After you told the FEDS, and Benson goes, look, I'm
Speaker 2: as guilty as you are. I did want revenge for Elliot.
Speaker 2: He will be back to work next week though, yay,
Speaker 2: and Picard has been ruled incompetent and so Louisiana can't
Speaker 2: touch him. Benson asks, do you think he can get better?
Speaker 2: And she goes, I don't know. I thought Charlie would
Speaker 2: get better. Then she gets a call from the Morgue
Speaker 2: six months ago a John Doe clipped by a cab
Speaker 2: no id but her business card inside and it was Charlie.
Speaker 2: She tears up and she goes, you know, maybe he'd
Speaker 2: be alive if I didn't give up on him and
Speaker 2: didn't make him leave, and Benson lets her know that
Speaker 2: she had to save herself. Beep got a text Picard
Speaker 2: made a news out of his shirt and tried to
Speaker 2: hang himself and lock up, so they both breathed deep
Speaker 2: and we go to the New York State Hospital.
Speaker 4: Casey meets Picard.
Speaker 2: She's in her blue Dunam off hours look and he goes,
Speaker 2: why are you here? And she says I heard you
Speaker 2: tried to hurt yourself. He says, I'm not crazy. I'm
Speaker 2: on my meds. And she's like, well, that's good, and
Speaker 2: he goes, no, I want to die. You should have
Speaker 2: left them execute me. I'd rather be dead than live
Speaker 2: with what I've done. Every day he gets a little better,
Speaker 2: and and the better he gets, the worse he feels
Speaker 2: about what he did those to those girls.
Speaker 4: Maybe that is justice, she says.
Speaker 2: Maybe you will forgive yourself one day when you realize
Speaker 2: it wasn't your fault. And that is that. Wow, that
Speaker 2: is that because it's like, if I was a parent
Speaker 2: of one of those girls, I'd be like, are you
Speaker 2: out of your fucking minds? Because I was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: but the monogamy episode, that guy getting fucking for in
Speaker 2: the mental institution too, Like I don't I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't love it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know though.
Speaker 2: If he's diagnosed schizophrenice for Annia like that's that's serious.
Speaker 1: I don't know, like, ugh, ye, I don't know. A mess,
Speaker 1: A mess, all right. Well, lead us into the darkness, baby,
Speaker 1: let's move into the darkness. Head towards the dark.
Speaker 2: I guess.
Speaker 1: One of the things this episode is based on are
Speaker 1: like a trend of convicted felons like wanting to be
Speaker 1: put to death, like being like, go ahead, give me
Speaker 1: the death penalty. And one of them was a Robert
Speaker 1: Comer who was convicted for rape and murder in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty seven in Arizona. And he does have a wild
Speaker 1: face with like teardrop tattoos like squirting out of his eye.
Speaker 1: He was camping with his girlfriend near Apache Lake in
Speaker 1: Arizona when they invited another camp for Larry Pritchard to
Speaker 1: come and hang out with them. And then at some
Speaker 1: point later that evening, Comer just put a gun to
Speaker 1: Larry's head and shot him and then stabbed him in
Speaker 1: the neck. He stole Larry's emtid, hit his body, went
Speaker 1: back to the campsite, stole a bunch of his shit,
Speaker 1: including his dog, and then he and the girlfriend went
Speaker 1: to another campsite posed as Arizona Dea ordered Jane Jones
Speaker 1: and Richard Smith which sounded like fake names, to come
Speaker 1: out of their tent. He was holding a gun on them.
Speaker 1: They got tied up. Then they stole their truck and
Speaker 1: some other things. And then the woman Jane, was like,
Speaker 1: can I use the bathroom? And when comer said that
Speaker 1: she could, he followed her into the woods and he
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted her. Then he kidnapped her and took her
Speaker 1: with him and his girlfriend and his girlfriend's two kids
Speaker 1: on the road. He also sexually assaulted her two more
Speaker 1: times and trigger warning.
Speaker 4: For the pet owners. He killed the dog.
Speaker 1: Thank god, Jones escaped when the guy was fixing the
Speaker 1: truck and she was picked up by another driver and
Speaker 1: she was able to you know, they were able to
Speaker 1: get the cops and he was arrested. But starting in
Speaker 1: two thousand, this all happened in nineteen eighty seven. Starting
Speaker 1: in two thousand, he was trying to get all his
Speaker 1: appeals dropped. He's like, execute me. For seven years he
Speaker 1: tried to get executed and over and over they were
Speaker 1: just trying to prove his competency to make this decision.
Speaker 1: And he said in court transcripts, quote, I killed Larry
Speaker 1: Pritchard stuck a gun in his ear and pulled the trigger.
Speaker 4: He's dead, and I for an eye.
Speaker 1: I mean I ended a whole bunch of innocent people's
Speaker 1: lives and changed changed their lives forever. Even though they're
Speaker 1: still alive, their lives are destroyed. I owe that to them.
Speaker 1: I owe it to myself. Man, I was totally wrong.
Speaker 1: I don't know what everybody's so scared about. Death is
Speaker 1: not that damn bad end of quote. The Ninth Circuit
Speaker 1: Court granted his request in early two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: May twenty third of two thousand and seven. He was
Speaker 1: strapped to a gurney. They covered him with a sheet.
Speaker 1: Witnesses were watching. He mouthed, Hi, how are you towards
Speaker 1: the witnesses, and then the warden, Carson McWilliams, asked do
Speaker 1: you have any last words? And he said yes, go Raiders,
Speaker 1: referring to the football team, and then he was executed.
Speaker 1: So that was just like I guess there was a
Speaker 1: bunch of guys at this in this time period tried
Speaker 1: to do that. Another case people say this is based
Speaker 1: on is David Riggins, and he was Riggins versus Nevada
Speaker 1: was a Supreme court case about being forced to take
Speaker 1: medication for trial. But in this episode he kind of
Speaker 1: got back on his meds like willingly. So I don't
Speaker 1: think it really connects as much. Like what happened was
Speaker 1: that his meds stopped working and that he this in
Speaker 1: the episode, and that when he was reintroduced to the
Speaker 1: prison system, they gave him different meds and they started working.
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to get into this David Riggins case,
Speaker 1: but I wanted to acknowledge it Alvin Bernard Ford case,
Speaker 1: that is the case of Ford versus Rain Wainwright.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, now, I feel.
Speaker 4: Guilty for even being like, I don't know, maybe.
Speaker 2: He should be in jail because it is it's the
Speaker 2: scary it's the scariest illness.
Speaker 4: It's one of the scariest I know. That's what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's like they're not they're not themselves, they're not, but
Speaker 1: like they're something their body did that their brain didn't
Speaker 1: That's like what the show all the time is like,
Speaker 1: it's something your body, a crime your body committed that
Speaker 1: your brain didn't know about.
Speaker 2: Like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, in the episode that we do on the road,
Speaker 1: the guy who has like a sleepwalking thing where he
Speaker 1: does sleep sex or whatever sexsomnia, and he like rapes
Speaker 1: his girlfriend's sister and they're like, I can't charge him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: They're like, we can't charge him. He didn't know what
Speaker 1: he was doing. It's a medical condition, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: they do this all the time in this booking show.
Speaker 1: But it's to get us to think and talk about it.
Speaker 1: So it's good.
Speaker 2: But Ford, it is because I feel bad now because
Speaker 2: it is just a bummer. I know.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you're exhibiting a lot of what people
Speaker 1: feel like. It's like, as a victim, yeah, you want justice,
Speaker 1: but then if you know about mental health, you're like, fuck,
Speaker 1: it's just it's not a catch twenty two.
Speaker 4: I don't know what it is. It's just an unsolvable problem,
Speaker 4: it feels like.
Speaker 1: But maybe just generally the nation paying more attention to
Speaker 1: public health and they're being like, you know, what's it
Speaker 1: called universal health care? That could help? That could help
Speaker 1: a little bit. If a guy like this was being
Speaker 1: monitored in some way, they might have known his med
Speaker 1: stopped working after his sister's death. But in the television show,
Speaker 1: in this case, Albert Bernard Ford, this is Ford versus
Speaker 1: Wainwright and it's a landmark Supreme case that upheld the
Speaker 1: law that the insane cannot be executed. So they have
Speaker 1: a right to a competency evaluation and an evidentiary hearing
Speaker 1: to determine competency and if they can be executed or not.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: Alvin Bernard Ford was convicted of murdering a cop in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four in a botched robbery, and he was
Speaker 1: sentenced to death in Florida.
Speaker 4: Obviously they love killing people.
Speaker 1: By nineteen eighty two, he'd been on eight on death
Speaker 1: row for eight years. His mental health had severely declined.
Speaker 1: He was calling himself the Pope. He was telling people
Speaker 1: he stopped the KKK from burying dead prisoners in the walls.
Speaker 1: He said that the prison guards were torturing their female
Speaker 1: relatives at the prison.
Speaker 4: I mean that one. I kind of am like, did
Speaker 4: you guys look into it?
Speaker 1: And he said he was appointing judges to the Florida
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. So the guy's not making sense. So three
Speaker 1: psychiatrists examined this guy and said that while he does
Speaker 1: have various mental disorders, he was capable of understanding what
Speaker 1: the death penalty means and what it would do to him,
Speaker 1: and then the governor of Florida, Bob Graham, just like
Speaker 1: signed a death warrant for him in nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 1: And then Ford sued the secretary of the Florida Department
Speaker 1: of Corrections, whose name was Louis L. Wainwright, and that's
Speaker 1: why it's called Ford versus Waynewright. And the court reasoned
Speaker 1: that executing the insane did not serve any penological goals.
Speaker 1: And I'd never heard the word of penalogical and it
Speaker 1: comes from you know, penalized penalty, Like I just hadn't
Speaker 1: heard that word before, and I like it. They found
Speaker 1: that Florida's way of proving or disproving competency was inadequate.
Speaker 1: Like basically what this governor did was he there were
Speaker 1: three psychiatrists that said, yeah, this guy's okay, and he
Speaker 1: goes okay, kill him. And the court was like, no,
Speaker 1: there has to be more of a There has to
Speaker 1: be more of like due process, Like there needs to
Speaker 1: be a full hearing with rules of procedure, like a
Speaker 1: lawyer has to be there, cross examine, question the witnesses
Speaker 1: and the experts and this and that. So eventually this
Speaker 1: case was passed by the Supreme Court. Ford was transferred
Speaker 1: to Florida State Hospital for treatment after he was reevaluated
Speaker 1: and found to be incompetent to be executed, and then
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine, a federal judge actually ruled that
Speaker 1: he was sane, and defense lawyers were appealing that, but
Speaker 1: the appeal was in process when Ford actually died of
Speaker 1: a respiratory illness in nineteen ninety one at age thirty seven,
Speaker 1: so they didn't end up being to go any further
Speaker 1: with it. But I do I like agree. I think
Speaker 1: it leaves too much power in the hands of like
Speaker 1: governors just to be like, oh yeah, grab a couple
Speaker 1: psychiatrists and whatever they say, I'll go with that, instead
Speaker 1: of like a due process for a person that might
Speaker 1: be suffering from mental illness. But let's get into the
Speaker 1: main dish of today's the main event of today's crimes.
Speaker 1: This is just gonna like confuse you even further. I
Speaker 1: feel on your feelings, Lisa, because it's very you don't
Speaker 1: know what to believe.
Speaker 4: A guy named Charles Ray Hatcher. He is a serial.
Speaker 1: Killer and rapist and he's I wrote the final sweetheart
Speaker 1: I got to research today was Charles Ray Hatcher, So
Speaker 1: Charles Ray Hatcher was the son of a criminal and
Speaker 1: an abusive alcoholic. He was a bullied boy who turned
Speaker 1: into a bullyef so he led a life of crime
Speaker 1: from a young age. Eighteen car theft, went to prison,
Speaker 1: twenty car theft went to prison, then at twenty back
Speaker 1: in prison for check forgery, twenty two escaped prison attempted
Speaker 1: burgoy back in prison, twenty five auto theft, separate prison
Speaker 1: escape attempt.
Speaker 2: He's doing it all. In nineteen fifty nine.
Speaker 1: Hatcher is getting out of his sixth prison sentence and
Speaker 1: he's thirty years old. He attempts to abduct a sixteen
Speaker 1: year old newspaper delivery boy using a Butcher knife, and
Speaker 1: then he goes to jail for lucky number seven. He
Speaker 1: does not succeed in this attempt. He actually tries to
Speaker 1: escape during his transport during this seventh prison sent but
Speaker 1: they got him and they got him into the Missouri
Speaker 1: State Penitentiary. And there it's where he's like bragging that
Speaker 1: he's the most notorious criminal in northwest Missouri since Jesse
Speaker 1: James go Off King do your branding. So two years
Speaker 1: into that sentence, in nineteen sixty one, an inmate named
Speaker 1: Jerry Farrington, twenty six years old, is found raped and
Speaker 1: repeatedly stabbed to death in the back. He's on the
Speaker 1: floor of the prison kitchen loading dock, and the only
Speaker 1: member of the kitchen crew who's missing at the time
Speaker 1: Charles Ray Hatcher. So he goes into solitary, but they
Speaker 1: can't convict him lack of evidence. I guess you know,
Speaker 1: there's no cameras. It's still the sixties. They don't whatever.
Speaker 1: So in solitary confinement, Hatcher writes a note claim that
Speaker 1: he needs psychiatric care, but the prison psychologist thinks that
Speaker 1: he's just trying to lie his way out of solitary
Speaker 1: and maybe even lie his way out of prison in general,
Speaker 1: so they refuse to treat him, and then they just
Speaker 1: send him back into gen Pop. Then he gets released early,
Speaker 1: I might add on August twenty fourth of nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 1: so he's thirty four years old. So he's only been
Speaker 1: in jail. Is this man's gotten out of jail for
Speaker 1: the seventh time. He maybe killed someone in jail, though
Speaker 1: they can't prove it, and he tried to kidnap someone,
Speaker 1: but they're like, get back into society, you little Rascal.
Speaker 4: So then nothing from this dude for like six years. Okay.
Speaker 1: Then in August of nineteen sixty nine, this guy's forty
Speaker 1: Hatcher abducts a boy in Antioch, California. He lured the
Speaker 1: boy into his car, took him down to a creek,
Speaker 1: and strangled him. Okay, So just two days later, a
Speaker 1: six year old boy named Gilbert Martinez is reported missing
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, having last been seen with a man
Speaker 1: who offered him ice cream and a man walking his dog.
Speaker 1: Later that day finds the boy being beaten and sexually
Speaker 1: assaulted and calls the police. When they arrive, the man
Speaker 1: who's the perpetrator will say nothing except that his name
Speaker 1: is Albert Ralph Price and his ID says his name
Speaker 1: is Hobert Prater. But the FBI identifies the guy as
Speaker 1: Charles Ray Hatcher. So the following month, Hatcher, still going
Speaker 1: by Albert Price, is charged with assaults with attempt to
Speaker 1: commit sodomy and kidnapping, and a judge orders of psychiatric
Speaker 1: evaluation determine his confidence. And then since he's been unresponsive
Speaker 1: with authorities like he will not speak to the authorities
Speaker 1: really except to give this fake name, so they're like
Speaker 1: give this guy a psyche val Hatcher claimed to hear voices,
Speaker 1: and it was thought that he was faking mental illness.
Speaker 1: Sources say he pretended to be confused and faked a
Speaker 1: few suicide attempts as well, all to avoid prison. In
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, he's bouncing back and forth between psych hospitals
Speaker 1: and courts. One psychiatrist diagnosed him with passive aggressive personality
Speaker 1: with paraphilia and pedophilia. The hospital staff felt that Hatcher
Speaker 1: was fabricating or exactly the symptoms of his mental disorder,
Speaker 1: so they did. The hospital determined he was competent to
Speaker 1: stand trial. The judge asks for two more evaluations. In
Speaker 1: seventy one, he's examined by two psychiatrists. One says he's
Speaker 1: insane and recommends vigorous treatment in a secure hospital. The
Speaker 1: second one declares him to be incompetent to stand trial
Speaker 1: and sends him back to the hospital as well. In
Speaker 1: May of nineteen seventy one, Hatcher is sent to trial
Speaker 1: and pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, and yet
Speaker 1: another hot and Yes, another hospital evaluates Simmons says he
Speaker 1: is unfit to stand trial. Weeks later, in June of
Speaker 1: seventy one, Hatcher escapes from the hospital. They catch him
Speaker 1: in Colusa, California a week later, and he's arrested for
Speaker 1: auto theft and he's using the name Richard Lee Grady.
Speaker 1: So this guy is all over the place. Hatcher is
Speaker 1: then returned to the California State Hospital for mental evaluation.
Speaker 1: Staff determined that his treatment was unsuccessful and that he
Speaker 1: was a danger to other patients, after which he was
Speaker 1: sent to a prison state hospital in Vacaville. In seventy two,
Speaker 1: this is three years after the crimes that he's committed.
Speaker 1: He in to the the boy Gilbert in San Francisco,
Speaker 1: because I think at this point they still don't know
Speaker 1: that he's killed this boy in Antioch, California. He's transferred
Speaker 1: to San Quentin to stand trial. He was ordered to
Speaker 1: undergo two final evaluations. One says he's competent to stand trial.
Speaker 1: The other one says he was sane at the time
Speaker 1: of the crime. So it's like you can get all
Speaker 1: these different doctors to say all these different things. In
Speaker 1: seventy two, he stood trial. He was convicted of the
Speaker 1: abduction and molestation of Gilbert Martinez, and he was committed
Speaker 1: to a California State Hospital and he was labeled quote
Speaker 1: a mentally disordered sexual offender. In March of nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 1: they find this dude in a cooler with sheets stubbed
Speaker 1: down his pants and he admits.
Speaker 4: That he's trying to escape the hospital.
Speaker 1: So he gets sent to a medium security prison in Vacaville,
Speaker 1: and then in May of seventy three, as psychologists says
Speaker 1: that he is quote a manipulative, institutionalized sociopath. In nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy three, he attempts suicide after being sentenced to a
Speaker 1: maximum security prison, so people think he's trying to stay
Speaker 1: away from maximum security. A psychiatrist diagnoses him with paranoids,
Speaker 1: gets a and he stays at Vaccaville in the in
Speaker 1: the medium security prison. Two years later, guards report good
Speaker 1: behavior at his parole review. The following year, nineteen seventy six,
Speaker 1: the California Parole Board finds that he's improved dramatically and
Speaker 1: they're going to parole him on Christmas of nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 1: but then a bill passes that gives him credit for
Speaker 1: all time spent in jail and mental facilities, so he
Speaker 1: gets out earlier. He gets out a full year and
Speaker 1: a half earlier, in January of nineteen seventy seven, he
Speaker 1: gets out and he goes to a San Francisco halfway house.
Speaker 1: And I just think, San Francisco in the seventies, what
Speaker 1: a perfect place for a lifelong criminal with no resources.
Speaker 1: He doesn't even make it two years till September of
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, he's arrested under the name Richard Clark
Speaker 1: in Omaha for sexually assaulting a sixteen year old boy.
Speaker 1: They send him to Douglas County Mental Hospital and he's
Speaker 1: released in seventy nine. That's four months. That's it, like
Speaker 1: at max. That's four months he was in jail for
Speaker 1: sexual assault of a sixteen year old boy.
Speaker 4: I do not know what's going on.
Speaker 1: I know it's the seventies, but everyone's just kind of
Speaker 1: like slapping the sky on the wrist and moving in on.
Speaker 1: And I do think he might have mental health problems,
Speaker 1: but I think that means we need to there needs
Speaker 1: to be a more permanent solution of keeping this man
Speaker 1: off the streets in a hospital. Five months later, in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, in May of seventy nine, he's arrested
Speaker 1: for assault and attempted murder of a seven year old
Speaker 1: boy named Thomas Morton. So he goes to Norfolk Regional Center,
Speaker 1: a mental health facility, and then the charges are dropped.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. I truly cannot figure
Speaker 1: out what's happening. A year later, in May of nineteen eighty,
Speaker 1: Hatcher is released. Then he gets sent back two months
Speaker 1: later for another assault, escapes in September. Now it's October
Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty. He's arrested again as Richard Clark, again
Speaker 1: in Nebraska for attempted assault in sodomy of a seventeen
Speaker 1: year old boy, and he was sent to another mental
Speaker 1: health facility and released after.
Speaker 4: Twenty one days.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's happening here, Like at this point,
Speaker 1: it's this is comedy. This is like to me, maybe
Speaker 1: these facilities are just like, we can't handle this guy.
Speaker 1: Let him out three months. I think they're all letting
Speaker 1: him out hoping he'll offend again and get sent to
Speaker 1: jail eventually. The three months later, January of eighty one,
Speaker 1: he as Richard Clark is arrested after a knife fight
Speaker 1: in Des Moines, Iowa. Then he bounces around to a
Speaker 1: bunch of different mental health facilities for the next four
Speaker 1: months until finally he's released to the Davenport Salvation Army
Speaker 1: in April of eighty one. Meanwhile in crazy, meanwhile going
Speaker 1: on concurrently to all this man's stuff going on. In
Speaker 1: May of nineteen seventy six, a four year old boy
Speaker 1: named Eric Christian or Christkin, I don't know how you
Speaker 1: say this last name, disappeared in Saint Joseph, Missouri. His
Speaker 1: body is later found along the Missouri River where he
Speaker 1: and he's found to have been sexually abused and died
Speaker 1: of suffocation. The police talked to one hundred plus suspects,
Speaker 1: including quote, every known pervert in town that was listed
Speaker 1: in multiple sources, but no credit to actually set it.
Speaker 1: So I'm sorry I can't attribute that quote, but someone
Speaker 1: just said they brought in every pervert in town and
Speaker 1: they came up empty. One of the suspects that they
Speaker 1: did talk to was Melvin Reynolds, a twenty five year
Speaker 1: old man with low IQ who had been sexually abused
Speaker 1: himself as a child and who had a homosexual experiences
Speaker 1: as an adolescent. He cooperates fully with the interrogation. They
Speaker 1: interrogate him multiple times over months, he takes two polygraphs
Speaker 1: and they even put him under hypnosis. In December nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy eight, he's questioned under am or barbarital, which is
Speaker 1: also called truth serum, and he made some ambiguous remark
Speaker 1: that made the police be like, this is our guy.
Speaker 1: So two months later, in February of seventy nine, they
Speaker 1: bring him in again. He's still cooperating. It's been a
Speaker 1: year and a half in this bro still like you
Speaker 1: want to talk to me here I am. They interrogate
Speaker 1: him for fourteen hours, question him, threaten him until finally
Speaker 1: Melvin says, I'll say so if you want me to.
Speaker 1: It's very much making a murderer like what they do
Speaker 1: to Bobby Dassy, you know, like interrogate him forever. This
Speaker 1: guy's low IQ and they're just like, eventually will break
Speaker 1: him down.
Speaker 4: And they did.
Speaker 1: And after that he just kept adding details to his
Speaker 1: confessions that were fed to him by the police, either
Speaker 1: consciously or not, and a prosecutor got on board with
Speaker 1: charging him. A jury convicted him of second degree murder
Speaker 1: and he was sentenced to life.
Speaker 4: Four years later.
Speaker 1: Charles Ray Hatcher, our Guy, confesses to three murders, including
Speaker 1: the murder of Eric Christian and Reynolds was released, thank god,
Speaker 1: but no thanks to this shitty work from the cops
Speaker 1: that just put this like low iq man into prison
Speaker 1: and convinced him that he did this crime. So he
Speaker 1: spent four years in jail. Good work, guys. So and
Speaker 1: it's like, yes, he's been exonerated. Who knows if society's
Speaker 1: going to treat him that way. So back to old
Speaker 1: Charlie Ray Hatcher. Last we heard from him, it's April
Speaker 1: of eighty one. He's in the Salvation Army shelter in Iowa.
Speaker 1: A year later, July of eighty two, and eleven year
Speaker 1: old girl named Michelle Steele is reported missing from Saint Joseph, Missouri,
Speaker 1: the same place where Eric Christian has disappeared from, and
Speaker 1: the next day, her naked body is found by her
Speaker 1: uncle by the Missouri River. She had been beaten and
Speaker 1: strangled to death, exact same mo as Eric. But how
Speaker 1: could Malvin Reynolds have committed this crime? Again, he was
Speaker 1: in jail for a crime he didn't commit. Hatcher was
Speaker 1: arrested the following day as he tried to check in
Speaker 1: to this. He was trying to check himself into the
Speaker 1: Saint Joseph State Hospital at the time, and as he
Speaker 1: awaited trial for Michelle Steele's abduction and murder, he confessed
Speaker 1: to fifteen other murders.
Speaker 4: The first victim was twelve.
Speaker 1: Year old William Freeman, who was the boy who had
Speaker 1: disappeared in Antioch, California, just a day or two before
Speaker 1: he was caught with Gilbert Martinez in San Francisco. Hatcher
Speaker 1: gave cops a map that led to the remains of
Speaker 1: twenty eight year old James Churchill. So he's killing kids,
Speaker 1: he's killing adults. I mean, he's all over the map
Speaker 1: this guy. And he had buried this guy near Rock
Speaker 1: Island Army Arsenal near Davenport, Iowa. He also confessed to
Speaker 1: the murder of Eric as I said. And he was
Speaker 1: convicted of the era of Eric Christian's homicide on October
Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty three, and he got life with no
Speaker 1: parole for at least fifty years. Finally, yes, and now
Speaker 1: that he now that he's waiting on trial to do
Speaker 1: Michelle Steele's murder. Also in Missouri, Hatcher asked for the
Speaker 1: death penalty, but the jury refused and gave him life.
Speaker 1: In December eighty four and four days later, he did
Speaker 1: take his own life by hanging in his cell at
Speaker 1: the Missouri State Penitentiary at fifty five years old. So
Speaker 1: there are a lot there are some you know, like
Speaker 1: commonalities of course with the episode. But I never get
Speaker 1: like a clear picture whether this guy is just a
Speaker 1: super criminal who's a manipulative sociopath, or is he suffering
Speaker 1: from schizophrenia and he has two different parts.
Speaker 2: I either way, the authorities should have kept him locked
Speaker 2: up in a hospital or prison.
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter which one. I don't care.
Speaker 1: Look at this fucking story after jail sentence number seven.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like I'm not into the three strike policy,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not, But like ten strikes with multiple
Speaker 2: rapes of children, I think those are those strips. You're out,
Speaker 2: You're out of society. Fuck authorities putting the wrong man
Speaker 2: in prison. This guy just kept committing I mean.
Speaker 1: So many lives I know, And it really just does
Speaker 1: feel like whenever you research crimes from the sixties and seventies,
Speaker 1: like everyone was asleep at the wheel. I mean, I
Speaker 1: get they didn't have the same technology. They didn't have DNA,
Speaker 1: they didn't have cameras, they didn't have a lot of stuff,
Speaker 1: but it's like fuck, like I don't know poor Melvin.
Speaker 1: I'm glad he got out at least after four years
Speaker 1: and it wasn't like like life.
Speaker 4: But yeah, anyway, that's that.
Speaker 1: On that and now we've got a very cool guest,
Speaker 1: so don't go anywhere. Our guest today is one of
Speaker 1: those guys that you just know you've seen him in something.
Speaker 1: He's a prolific character actor. He was Ellen DeGeneres's roommate
Speaker 1: on her sitcom Ellen. His character was named Adam Green,
Speaker 1: but he's also been on Castle six Feet Under buttercall Saul.
Speaker 1: He's in everything, but you know him today as a
Speaker 1: Southern man suffering from schizophrenia who headbutted Stabler into blindness.
Speaker 1: Saul Picard, please enjoy our delightful conversation with Ari Gross.
Speaker 1: You are a iconic SVU figure as the person who
Speaker 1: headbutted Elliott Stabler into blindness.
Speaker 2: So we're so excited to talk to you. Thank you
Speaker 2: very much, a very amazing performance.
Speaker 1: Yes, you had done criminal intent before you did SVU.
Speaker 1: I saw so you kind of knew the Dick Wolf
Speaker 1: universe a little bit.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean I knew the Dick Wolf universe as
Speaker 7: a fan before long before that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I did do criminal Intent and that was
Speaker 6: very fun. I think that was in two thousand and five.
Speaker 1: Yeah, damn, yeah, it was like a couple of years
Speaker 1: before this one. So then they just bring you in
Speaker 1: and say, we want you to play this sort of
Speaker 1: on the edge, I mean, someone suffering from schizophrenia guy character?
Speaker 1: Or do you are you auditioning? Like how does this
Speaker 1: come all come about? They see you play another person
Speaker 1: with similar characters.
Speaker 7: I actually don't remember, but I I probably auditioned for it,
Speaker 7: though I had I had occasionally had offers.
Speaker 6: In fact, I think it might have actually been an offer.
Speaker 2: I feel like you're a go to guy, you know,
Speaker 2: looking at your career, you're you're on every show that's
Speaker 2: happened in the past twenty years.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm assuming they're calling you.
Speaker 7: There was there was a certain period where if you
Speaker 7: saw my face early in an episode of a show,
Speaker 7: a child was in danger, oh no, and you know
Speaker 7: it was a little bit of an ego blow, but
Speaker 7: also you know, it helps to make insurance by the
Speaker 7: end of the year, and if it's a great show,
Speaker 7: great actors in it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're a pedophile again.
Speaker 7: Man, I remember definitely being I mean, in addition to
Speaker 7: a chance to work with Mauria and Chris and.
Speaker 4: B d One.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, when I'm a Blanket, we actually just did
Speaker 7: a play together a few years ago.
Speaker 6: Oh and Diane and.
Speaker 7: Iced Tea and he and I had done a short
Speaker 7: movie together like a million years ago. Oh, so I
Speaker 7: had some connection to a bunch of people on the show.
Speaker 7: But it was I was delighted to be part of
Speaker 7: that universe.
Speaker 2: What was the short about? What was the short with
Speaker 2: Iced Tea? I'm so curious.
Speaker 7: The short was called get Text, and it was kind
Speaker 7: of like a sizzle reel for a movie that never
Speaker 7: got made about two brothers who had a tuxedo business
Speaker 7: they had inherited from their father.
Speaker 6: And I was I think it was Eddie Tuxedo or sometimes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is from nineteen eighty seven and the thumbnail
Speaker 1: is like a very young Iced Tea on IMDb.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 7: Anita Rosenberg wrote and directed it, and Kurt Fuller was
Speaker 7: in it, and James row was in a tearing Ley Hopkins,
Speaker 7: who is a you know.
Speaker 6: Very successful writer director. It was it was also, it was,
Speaker 6: it was. It was a lot of.
Speaker 7: Fun and it was just sort of a lark for
Speaker 7: a friend. But you know, all these people went on
Speaker 7: to have my great careers.
Speaker 2: Any like tidbits that our audience would like about those
Speaker 2: people or your day on set and filming, and I
Speaker 2: want to know personally about you having to run with
Speaker 2: your hands behind your back and if that was hard.
Speaker 7: But that's in the that's in the sequence after he
Speaker 7: pulls me out of the truck in the park.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I'm and I'm I'm sort of just this
Speaker 7: sort of stream of consciousness.
Speaker 2: Stuff that I'm saying, yeah, and then you see the
Speaker 2: billboard and that's when it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, that the billboard, as I recall where I'm saying,
Speaker 7: it says like escape and I think, yeah, it's gonna
Speaker 7: be that's gonna be difficult. And then it was actually
Speaker 7: like remarkably fun to shoot that though that all the
Speaker 7: subject matter and you know a lot of the scenes
Speaker 7: are super dark, but he's so dissociated at that point
Speaker 7: that you know, it's it's one of those rare opportunities
Speaker 7: as an actor where you can kind of just use
Speaker 7: anything that comes to mind to you know, sort of motivate,
Speaker 7: if you will, what you're.
Speaker 6: Saying because it doesn't have to be.
Speaker 7: There's no obligation too to connect to any sort of
Speaker 7: like psychological reality, Right, you get to create your own
Speaker 7: because it's it's you know, in this guy's case, I'm
Speaker 7: not a medical person or anything, but the clearly something
Speaker 7: is so wrong, whether it's chemical or in the guy's brain.
Speaker 2: So what kind of prep do you do to get
Speaker 2: ready to play a part like this?
Speaker 4: Is it different pushups?
Speaker 6: What? What kind of prep?
Speaker 7: So with that part, I listened to a lot of
Speaker 7: accent coaching tapes to try and approximate a New Orleans accent,
Speaker 7: which is it was not familiar to me at all,
Speaker 7: and that and that's a fun thing to do.
Speaker 6: That's you know, part of the if you're if you're
Speaker 6: a baker.
Speaker 7: That's when you get to like put the roses on
Speaker 7: the cake and stuff like that. But also, you know,
Speaker 7: I didn't go out and write children's books or anything
Speaker 7: like that.
Speaker 6: But you know, learning learning lines, I will have to
Speaker 6: say that was a that was a big hard of
Speaker 6: it is.
Speaker 7: And it sounds kind of like, well, of course you
Speaker 7: have to learn your lines, but learning them so well
Speaker 7: that I could think anything and just have the words
Speaker 7: come out because I didn't know where we were going
Speaker 7: to shoot and what was going to be happening to me, Like,
Speaker 7: I didn't know until we were walking down that path
Speaker 7: and I was handcuffed behind my back and Chris Maloney
Speaker 7: was making me laugh.
Speaker 6: That love to hear that what the circumstances were going
Speaker 6: to be.
Speaker 4: So I just how many takes was the headbud?
Speaker 6: Oh? Not a lot? Like you know, quick quick.
Speaker 1: You just like lunged for it towards him and he
Speaker 1: just threw himself back into the car. Like pretty much
Speaker 1: did they have a stunt person or you were doing it?
Speaker 7: Probably be stunt person involved. I was trying to stay
Speaker 7: very focused on what I had to say. I don't
Speaker 7: remember all of that stuff. I'm certain there were stunt people.
Speaker 1: Are you saying that, like even when you're kind of
Speaker 1: rambling when he's pulling you out of the woods and
Speaker 1: you're just is all that scripted?
Speaker 4: Or are you just kind of taking story.
Speaker 7: That No, that is one hundred on the page? Oh wow,
Speaker 7: you know when I got the script?
Speaker 4: Wow?
Speaker 1: Yeah, because some of it's like just under your breath,
Speaker 1: like I wouldn't have even probably heard it. This last
Speaker 1: time I watched it, I had it with the captions on,
Speaker 1: so I could tell what you were saying.
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's like, yeah, that's so, that's wow.
Speaker 1: I would have thought they would have let you improv
Speaker 1: a little bit there, but I guess everything by the book.
Speaker 7: One of the Okay, So in that particular moment, one
Speaker 7: of my favorite things was we did I think we
Speaker 7: did a couple of takes that it was kind of
Speaker 7: a tight master with me and my guy and Stabler.
Speaker 7: And once we got that and you know, all the
Speaker 7: words came out, I got a lot of like acknowledgment,
Speaker 7: a lot of warm feelings from production. Oh nice, as
Speaker 7: we're doing that, like, oh that was great, Oh we.
Speaker 6: Got it all. Oh that's trumant. It was great. It
Speaker 6: was great.
Speaker 7: And after about the fourth person said something like that,
Speaker 7: Chris just went, okay, look.
Speaker 1: It was okay. He didn't want you to get too
Speaker 1: big for your brushes.
Speaker 6: It was fine.
Speaker 7: And Marishka, I had been on a sitcom a couple
Speaker 7: of years earlier. I was Ellen's roommate on her first
Speaker 7: sitcom and in one of our very first episodes, and
Speaker 7: it was before SVVU, Marishka was my date in the episode.
Speaker 6: She was the guest star oh wow, I believe her
Speaker 6: name was Dara. Oh my wow, Yes, I believe. I
Speaker 6: have a photo from that episode I can share with
Speaker 6: you too.
Speaker 1: Our listeners are very obsessed with everything she's done prior
Speaker 1: to SVU, because she's just been on the same show
Speaker 1: for twenty five years.
Speaker 4: That if they you're in er, they take a photo
Speaker 4: and like send it to us.
Speaker 1: Everybody's like very obsessed with like those. But I don't
Speaker 1: think anyone's ever sent us the ellen. So we got
Speaker 1: we got to see that.
Speaker 2: That's so funny.
Speaker 1: And so when you showed up on the set to
Speaker 1: be you know, Saul Picard, this schizophrenic pedophile, did you
Speaker 1: she was? She like, oh, it's my old boyfriend Ari
Speaker 1: how I mean, because everything we hear she remembers everybody and.
Speaker 7: Like so absolutely, And that was another thing about that
Speaker 7: shows that everyone It just makes.
Speaker 6: You feel immediately welcome and comfortable.
Speaker 4: It was great, Yeah, because you had big scenes.
Speaker 1: You had the head butt with Maloney, you had big
Speaker 1: scenes with Diane Neil too.
Speaker 4: And the confession with b. D.
Speaker 5: Wong.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was all it was all it was. It
Speaker 6: was very involving stuff. It was a great part.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a great, big one.
Speaker 1: They gave you a lot of big, juicy monologues and
Speaker 1: things to do.
Speaker 7: It felt like the challenge was to to not excuse
Speaker 7: or whitewash the guy, but to sort of live in
Speaker 7: that area of like, at what point it's some like
Speaker 7: just horrific behavior, like beyond someone's control. And in this case,
Speaker 7: it sort of felt like it landed on beyond his
Speaker 7: control because because he thought he was doing something else.
Speaker 7: I haven't rewatched the episode, but does that recall his
Speaker 7: thing was that he thought he was protecting his younger
Speaker 7: sister from an attack that had happened, you know, twenty
Speaker 7: years earlier or something like that.
Speaker 2: Well, with all your experience on sets, I am curious,
Speaker 2: is that what is it like have you ever gone
Speaker 2: to as summit like well, this is going to be
Speaker 2: a mess, and what are those things that indicate that
Speaker 2: to you or the opposite? You know, we're like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is going to be a great day.
Speaker 7: You know, it really is kind of impossible to know
Speaker 7: what's going to be a great day, what's going to
Speaker 7: be a bad day. You sort of you know, it's
Speaker 7: whether or not does something get in the groove at
Speaker 7: a certain point. Usually for me, an indication that things
Speaker 7: might not be great is walking onto you know, and
Speaker 7: it doesn't.
Speaker 6: It really doesn't happen that much. I've mostly have had
Speaker 6: great experiences.
Speaker 7: But every now and then you walk onto a set
Speaker 7: that you know it's either a film that's been shooting
Speaker 7: for a couple of weeks or a series that's been
Speaker 7: going on, and ten minutes into your day there's somebody
Speaker 7: yelling at somebody else and it just feels like, oh, well,
Speaker 7: this is you know, everybody needs to go to therapy
Speaker 7: and come back tomorrow. Ors just just a TV show.
Speaker 4: Yell I get someone at work is wild.
Speaker 7: It is wild, and I've seen it a few times,
Speaker 7: and I will omit the names to protect the guilty.
Speaker 4: I guess you have done so many things.
Speaker 1: What do people recognize you for the most when somebody
Speaker 1: randomly comes up to you? What are they like or
Speaker 1: do you get a lot of mine? What do I
Speaker 1: know you from? Kind of people?
Speaker 4: Which Pedophile were?
Speaker 6: That's right? Well, I have to say that.
Speaker 7: I became aware that Blinded had aired because my daughter
Speaker 7: was around two at the time, and I would suddenly
Speaker 7: when I would take her to the local park playground
Speaker 7: on the swings is when I would start getting very
Speaker 7: uncomfortable glances from other parents and really not understand what
Speaker 7: the issue was and forget about going into the library.
Speaker 7: I think a lot of people still kind of identify
Speaker 7: me from Castle, Oh right, right, because I didn't do
Speaker 7: a lot of episodes each season, but I did about
Speaker 7: I say, eight or nine seasons of the show, so
Speaker 7: I think people mostly thought I was their junior high
Speaker 7: biology teachers.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you were also in Six Feet Under.
Speaker 2: Forgot you were in a few.
Speaker 6: Of those that that's correct.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 6: I was a couples therapist i show. Yeah, and.
Speaker 7: I think I've sort of aged out of people recognizing
Speaker 7: me from Allen, but that was a big deal for
Speaker 7: a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And anything fun coming up, anything you'd like us
Speaker 2: to look out for.
Speaker 7: I'm I'm currently looking for self storage space, so I'm
Speaker 7: about to move every everything I've still got left at
Speaker 7: the old house. But other than that, sort of seeing
Speaker 7: what the new season will bring, it's a very strange time.
Speaker 7: As you know, in the business, there's this kind of
Speaker 7: realignment of everything, so you know, we'll see, Well.
Speaker 1: They could definitely get you back on s few. I
Speaker 1: think it's been long enough since the head butt that
Speaker 1: people will have forgotten a little bit.
Speaker 4: We can get you back, and.
Speaker 2: There'd be a good lawyer, you know, like a lawyer,
Speaker 2: a dirt like a dirty governor.
Speaker 5: I don't know judge, okay, because I don't know this
Speaker 5: at all, But are there actors who repeat characters?
Speaker 2: Some of the main detectives who have been on for
Speaker 2: seasons were either perpetrators or victims in the past.
Speaker 7: And wasn't Diane Neial initially a guest star and then
Speaker 7: came on.
Speaker 4: Yes, right, she was a purp, she was a chill
Speaker 4: came out.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but it's not the same character. No, no, no,
Speaker 6: they're not.
Speaker 4: Like she's not like I reformed and went and went
Speaker 4: to law.
Speaker 6: School and went to law school in prison.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a totally different person. Which they've done it.
Speaker 1: I have Muggsy what's his name? That's his Twitter? What's
Speaker 1: the or is it? It's like five or six? Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a bunch more regular detective. But yeah, they bring people.
Speaker 4: Well, they they at the beginning.
Speaker 1: I think they used to reuse people a lot more frequently,
Speaker 1: like the first few seasons, and now I think they
Speaker 1: try to spread them out more. But you see people
Speaker 1: all the time that we're like on a season that
Speaker 1: have been back in the more recent seasons. So just
Speaker 1: putting that out there that are gross is ready for
Speaker 1: his return to SVU.
Speaker 6: That's right, Hell yeah.
Speaker 1: Fun guy, nice guy. But he's like such a what
Speaker 1: a talented guy, and he's like just out there working,
Speaker 1: working and working. But this episode, this episode, I would say,
Speaker 1: if we're going to bring up stuff that we've discussed,
Speaker 1: it's like we have talked before about actual I mean,
Speaker 1: we are not pro death penalty on this podcast, so
Speaker 1: I don't want anyone to death, but like you know,
Speaker 1: we've talked before about like there was a woman that
Speaker 1: was on death row that had had that was they
Speaker 1: actually ended up executing who was had gone through so
Speaker 1: much trauma in her life and had definitely had mental
Speaker 1: health issues. And I really don't feel like they are
Speaker 1: in certain states taking any of that into account. This
Speaker 1: it felt like this episode was really and again these
Speaker 1: are these episodes are from a long time ago, and
Speaker 1: I think that they're always tapping in on stuff that
Speaker 1: is still relevant in the current conversation of like, you know,
Speaker 1: before we are putting someone to death like an animal,
Speaker 1: what are we considering their full personhood and like what
Speaker 1: they might be suffering from, like mental illness, trauma informed
Speaker 1: mental illness, you know, horrific past. I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: just something something this episode made me think about. You know, well,
Speaker 1: it's just hard to understand. So it's hard to make
Speaker 1: sense of because it's like it's schizophrenia is just sad.
Speaker 4: It's hard to think about. Yeah, yeah, what because Evail.
Speaker 2: Isn't real and then you're committing awful crimes and you
Speaker 2: don't even remember, and then now you're quote unquote better
Speaker 2: and medicated, and now you have to live with these
Speaker 2: things and it wasn't you, but it is you.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's really complicated, and I think that's
Speaker 2: why most people would rather just put people to death
Speaker 2: than think about anything.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but is that wild to say?
Speaker 1: No, No, I think people are people look at the
Speaker 1: crimes and they see things sort of black and white.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the crimes in this episode and in
Speaker 1: the in the real life crimes were horrific, but.
Speaker 2: Well, and the guy in Missouri like that was just
Speaker 2: like fucking sad, like all that evidence that he didn't
Speaker 2: do it, and the governor instead of just been like, well, wait, like,
Speaker 2: what kind of a bloodlust is this?
Speaker 4: Like I don't under.
Speaker 2: Don't understand why they couldn't have if they feel a
Speaker 2: little bit of a chance he didn't do it, why
Speaker 2: wouldn't that be enough to be like, oh, yeah, let's wait,
Speaker 2: Like I don't understand.
Speaker 4: Wait six months in six months if it's.
Speaker 1: Not, I don't Yeah, I don't understand the blood lust
Speaker 1: for that kind of thing. And it was, but it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I am just I'm just against the death penalties.
Speaker 4: So and I do think that the wishes of the family.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times the family Sometimes I
Speaker 1: have read things where it's like, oh, the family wants
Speaker 1: that person dead so they can like sleep at night
Speaker 1: knowing that he's not like breathing anymore. Okay, I guess
Speaker 1: I can see people wanting that, but.
Speaker 2: But that case, usually the families don't want it, Like
Speaker 2: I get that too, but it's realy the case often enough.
Speaker 1: I feel like most of the time they're just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they want them out of society and you know, getting
Speaker 1: you know, hopefully we should be looking at prison also
Speaker 1: as rehabilitative, right, Like aren't we supposed to be looking
Speaker 1: at it that way.
Speaker 4: Not if you're going in for life. I don't care,
Speaker 4: stay bad. I don't know.
Speaker 1: People can go in for life and they can get
Speaker 1: degrees and change who they are. I don't know, look
Speaker 1: at some of these people have done stuff like that.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 7: Though.
Speaker 1: Then I was just watching some of the episodes where
Speaker 1: of serial killers that we know where they're working in
Speaker 1: the law library on SVU, and I was like, these guys,
Speaker 1: these guys are never going to stop, you know who
Speaker 1: we're talking about.
Speaker 2: The library is like that's the place for the gentle
Speaker 2: soul of the prison always Yeah, yeah, No, I guess
Speaker 2: you can become Yeah, I guess it's good if you
Speaker 2: become better in person.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think that they're yeah, you're not going to
Speaker 1: let somebody like out, But I don't know. I also
Speaker 1: think it's I also think personally, if it was me
Speaker 1: and somebody like knock on Wood, like murdered one of
Speaker 1: my loved ones or something, I would want them in
Speaker 1: prison thinking about their crime rather than just what if
Speaker 1: we just stop out?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Don't you think it's punishment for a psycho to be
Speaker 1: locked with no control in jail like we're so yeah,
Speaker 1: but I don't think they're thinking about the crime. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't think they're like repentant.
Speaker 4: And if that's the thing, it's like they don't want
Speaker 4: to be in jail.
Speaker 2: But if you feel nothing, then like jail or not jail,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter you right, if you.
Speaker 1: Feel like well, they've also it's also been proven that
Speaker 1: the death penalty is not a deterrent, like it doesn't
Speaker 1: deter people from crimes. So hi, yeah, ye, it's a tough.
Speaker 1: It's tough, But let's let's move on to this week's
Speaker 1: So what would Sister Peg do? This is our weekly segment,
Speaker 1: you guys know, where we just try to give you
Speaker 1: more info on what we talked about in today's episode, because,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, we do not have a PhD
Speaker 1: or any kind of our education in anything we're talking about. So,
Speaker 1: you know, mental illness in the prison system not my level,
Speaker 1: not my area of exploitase.
Speaker 2: You know, because I believe Yeah, remember I was really
Speaker 2: mad that that dude who had that nervous breakdown, like
Speaker 2: stabbed the pregnant life and slit the mom's throat.
Speaker 4: Yeah, gouged out his.
Speaker 2: Daughter's eye and then he was sent to a hospital
Speaker 2: and then really I was pissed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he was eventually released for world Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But this week I wanted to direct you guys to
Speaker 1: an initiative by the American Bar Association called the Severe
Speaker 1: Mental Illness Initiative. Their mission is to serve as a
Speaker 1: national resource for lawyers, organizations, and policymakers interested in learning
Speaker 1: more about the issues surrounding serious mental illness and capital punishment.
Speaker 1: They provide policy materials to advocates and lawmakers who want
Speaker 1: to support legislation to exempt individuals with serious mental health
Speaker 1: illness from the death penalty, and they support state coalitions
Speaker 1: that seek to end the execution of defendants with severe
Speaker 1: mental illness. So lots of great information over on their
Speaker 1: site for the Severe Mental Illness Initiative, and for more
Speaker 1: info on that, you can head over to Americanbar dot org.
Speaker 1: The exact link to that section is going to be
Speaker 1: in our show notes and will as always be in
Speaker 1: our stories the day that this episode is released, and
Speaker 1: then we save those forever in our WWSPD highlight on
Speaker 1: our Instagram page, which is That's Messed Up Pod, And
Speaker 1: if you're not following our Instagram what are you doing?
Speaker 2: Come on, get out there, get out there and vote,
Speaker 2: and next week we'll be doing ritual.
Speaker 4: Uh oh.
Speaker 2: Diane Neil's most Haunted episode from season five, episode fourteen,
Speaker 2: get ready for Yeah, get ready? God?
Speaker 1: All right, come see us on tour. We love you guys,
Speaker 1: See you next week.
Speaker 4: Nie.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 4: Thank you so.
Speaker 2: Much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien and our associate
Speaker 2: producer Christina Chamberlain, and to our.
Speaker 1: Mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and
Speaker 1: to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Geen
Speaker 1: Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers
Speaker 1: Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at exactly right.
Speaker 4: Media dun, dun,