WEBVTT - Hasbara, Pt. 2 with Matt Lieb 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.680 Also media. 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.920 Hey everyone, welcome to it could happen here. I am 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:16.240 your guest host, Matt Leeb back again with sharene Unas. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:16.960 What's up, Cheren? 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:19.120 Nothing? This? 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:20.800 This is this? Yeah? This is what's y? 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:21.320 No. 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.959 I happy to be happy to be back. Hopefully you 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.200 guys listen to part one already of Matt. Yeah, really 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:29.840 cool little series we got going on here. But if 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.600 you haven't listened to that first, and then we're continuing 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.600 this Hasbara, this Hasbara journey. 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:42.519 Yeah, this Hasbara train stops for no man uh. Yeah, 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.360 So this is part two of this series about Hasbara 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:52.840 once again. Hesbara is basically just means to explain, and 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:57.280 we're talking about Israeli propaganda and beyond not just propaganda, 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:58.520 but so much more. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:00:59.200 So. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.040 We're going to talk a little bit about the myths 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.679 about Israel that have kind of like gained a foothold 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.959 in Western public consciousness to a degree that it's like 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.240 not just a foothold, but it's just kind of things 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.959 that we commonly think are facts. So like if you 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.240 grew up in Zionism, which is like if you don't know, 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:24.320 that's a political ideology that birth the state of Israel, 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.800 you have probably heard a lot of your teachers, your rabbis, 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:32.600 your friends, your family, your Israeli friends, your Israeli family 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.280 talking about how it's your responsibility to explain Israel to 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.680 the people, and growing up, you don't actually know that 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.440 what you're doing is propaganda, like you think you're just 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.720 you know that you know more than most people because 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.560 everyone else is getting their information from anti Semites. You know, 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:57.160 you think like you've got the real scoop and that 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:03.040 most people are just you know, born ignorance and biased 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.160 against Jews. And you don't have to be Jewish to 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.760 have been exposed to espara. Chances are that if you 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.959 grew up in the West, you probably hold several views 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.360 about Israel that are the result of decades long pr campaigns. 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.240 So what I'm gonna do now is a lightning round 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:24.080 of myth busting. This is just like real quick getting 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.640 into some of the I don't know, some of the 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:32.160 most pervasive things that I think each one could be 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.480 an entire episode. But you know, listen, this is your guys, 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.960 pot this isn't my podcast. I can't just take it 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.040 away from you. So I'm just gonna do a lightning 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:42.640 round with you are you ready. 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:44.760 Sharen, oh Born Ready, Let's do it. 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:49.640 Okay. Israel is not a land without a people for 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:54.040 a people without land. Okay, there were people there. I 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:56.480 don't know if you know that Palestinians were there and 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.839 seven hundred and fifty thousand were expelled innineteen forty eight. 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.400 This whole conflict has not been going on for hundreds 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.560 of years. It is very very modern, and it has 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.240 nothing to do with an ancient religious rivalry. So when 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.760 someone says, oh, they've been killing each other for thousands 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:19.080 of yet, no, no, not even a little no, that 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.639 is not a thing. Israel quote lives in a tough 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.640 neighborhood and it must act tough to survive. That is 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:31.280 just regular ass racism and orientalism, the idea that they 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.440 just you know, you have to be tough, you know, 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:38.640 I mean, listen, A tough neighborhood is very much that 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.800 is translated for an American, a white American audience. You 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.720 know what I mean. What is a tough neighborhood. It's 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.640 one with a lot of people of color. Here's another one. 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.840 There are plenty of Arab states. Why can't they just 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:56.280 go there again? This is a weird racist, dehumanizing thing 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.360 to tell someone whose house you just bulldozed, like, you know, 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.760 whenever you see them, like doing a big zoom ount 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.040 where they go, like there's only one Jewish state and 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.720 there's all these Arab states. You know, it's like no, no, no, personally, 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.760 what happened here, don't don't you know? It's like you 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:19.760 guy had house, Army took house, moved him to other area. 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:25.120 That is wrong, period. You can't just say go to 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:29.400 another Arab country. That's that's just racism. Here's another one. 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:36.159 It's too complicated. No, it is not. Switch the roles 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.520 in your head. Use your brain for a second. Switch 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.440 the roles of Jews and Palestinians in your head, and 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.760 you'll have an easier time condemning the side that has 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:52.680 powerful government and army whose crimes include genocide, apartheid, at 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:57.919 nick cleansing, military occupation, and religious slash, racist settler terrorism. 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.360 That is not complicated. If it were the Jews who 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:06.120 lived in Gaza getting bombed mercilessly, you would not have 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.520 a problem saying what was happening was genocide. You just 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:13.360 wouldn't just do that in your head. All right, here's 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:17.680 another one. Zionism is an indigenous rights movement. No, it's 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:23.400 fucking not. It's not. It is a settler colonialist movement. 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:26.599 That is something that was made explicitly clear by the 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.480 creators of modern Zionism. They not only talked about like 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:35.080 settling and colonizing Palestine, but they referred to the Arab 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:40.880 occupants there as the indigenous population. They they said indigenous. 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:45.359 They God, it just pisses me off. And also the 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:49.560 indigenous argument is like, way, I just hate it in 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.640 general when people go back and forth about who is 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.640 indigenous there, because it's so academic. It's like it's dehumanizing 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.600 and it obfuscates the whole thing because once again it 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.240 is just Palestinians being like I want to be able 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.200 to vote, I want to have my house back. I 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.760 literally have the key to my house. And yes, many 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:10.880 of them literally still have the keys to their house. 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:16.720 All right, there's there's so many there's so many goddamn 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.200 myths and propaganda that I just like that. I started 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.719 a podcast about it. That's that's that's why. But like 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:25.560 much of the stuff that you take for granted is 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:29.240 fact is not only a historic but like wildly so, 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:36.520 like the IDF outnumbered the Arab States armies during the 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.920 war forty eight. That is literally, they say the opposite 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:42.760 in the you know, nineteen forty eight story of the 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:46.359 creation of Israel. It's like un created Israel. All the 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.320 Arab states attacked. That is not actually what happened. Were 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:52.240 not just that all the Arab states attack, but that 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:57.600 Israel and the IDEF overcame this gigantic horde of Arab armies. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.440 The Arab armies that were in this fight are far 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:03.920 fewer than have been reported. You know, they say it's 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.719 like seven, It was more like four, and only three 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.480 of them. Only one of them had any sort of 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.600 like modern military capabilities. The rest were not really armies. 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.480 And also they outnumbered the idea of outnumbered these armies 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.040 in nineteen sixty seven. Here's another one. Is it all 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.840 attacked first in nineteen sixty seven. It was a preemptive 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.800 strike like famously, and yet the you know, once again, 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:33.000 the narrative around the nineteen sixty seven Six Day War 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.240 is that, you know, is Youra all minding its own 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.280 business and then Egypt, along with the other Arabs, yea 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:45.080 evil Arabs, attacked the Israeli army struck first. That is 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.280 a fact that they talk about, and there's it's also 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.280 very very much disputed as to whether or not the 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:58.080 Egyptian army was going to attack at all. But you know, 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:02.280 there's no room for narrative because it, you know, fucks 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:07.920 up the glorious story of what became the occupation of 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.720 the West Bank and Gaza. Another one, a hud Barak 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:17.400 absolutely did not offer the Palestinians estate during Oslo. He 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.840 did not, nor did he offer ninety six percent of 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.640 the West Bank. And no, Israel did not invent the 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:26.320 fucking cherry tomato. 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:27.480 Wait they did it. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.760 No, they did not. There was a Haretz article about 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:34.920 it where they're like, no, we didn't. Why do we 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:38.440 keep saying this we didn't do this? Oh my god, 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:39.599 that's so funny. No. 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.360 I mean, so many of these talking points are some 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.079 of the main arguments that Zionis will use to be like, well, 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.719 they rejected this and this is what happened here, and 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.880 it's just like these are all incorrect. You're just like 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.400 regurgitating hsbara. 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.360 Right, And it's because that his Bara has been so 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.720 widely repeated and so often that it just kind of 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.800 sinks in Huberak did not offer them a state in 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:08.280 terms of what you would consider the definition definition of 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.800 a state to be, you know, and that is autonomy, 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.240 that is sovereignty. They were not offering them sovereignty. They 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.560 weren't offering ninety six percent of the land. They had 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.760 taken such a large percentage of the of it. And 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.679 what they were offering was in an even smaller percentage 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:30.719 of what they had already taken. And they the thing 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.160 they were offering again, not a state, not a state, 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:38.560 not a sovereign autonomous state. But you know, this is 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:40.840 a things people are willing to believe. And that's just 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.199 that's the whole thing. And again I prefer to say 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:46.720 it's the I am rubber, you are a glue tactic. 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.679 But you know it's the same shit. You know, Hiszbara 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:55.120 likes to invert the victim and the victimizer. And the 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.080 reason is simple. They know that the West is much 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.760 more willing to believe that Jews are the victims and 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:07.360 Arabs are oppressors. You know, it's just it's playing on 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:13.720 Western guilt and complicity in Europe during the Holocaust, and 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.640 it's playing on kind of liberal sympathies in general, and 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.320 honestly it's playing on well, who do you know if 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:21.680 you're in the West. If you're in the West, you 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.920 know some Jews, maybe you don't know Arabs. The Arabs 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:30.120 you do know are on TV doing bad, you know, 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.280 And that is one of the reasons for the effectiveness 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.760 of it. And in terms of like the inversion of everything, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.920 like I think my favorite example is the is the map, 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:47.760 So like Israel will often point to a map of 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.840 the entire mina region like Middle East North Africa, and 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:55.600 they'll highlight all of the Arab countries in green and 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.440 Israel in blue to show that like, oh, Israel just 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.880 a tiny is It's just a tiny strip of land. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.800 It's just a small bean, you know, surrounded by big 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:09.880 green Arab monsters and want to kill Israel like that. 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.360 Hesboro map will like often include the West Bank and 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.920 the Gaza strip in green as well, and it's a 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:19.200 way to frame the West Bank in Gaza is not 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:23.320 just being like this you know particular thing. They will 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.960 be like, no, these are part of the giant invading 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.640 Arab green monster, because what they're trying to do is 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.480 show the power imbalance is being completely inverted from the 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.600 reality here, you know, and anyone anyone who knows you know, 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:42.079 or anyone who's like watched the news, knows that it's 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:47.439 ridiculously false to claim that Israel is somehow the less 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.200 powerful agent here, you know, like you you don't have 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:56.520 to have a PhD to plainly see the disproportionate power imbalance. 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:03.920 Like there's Israel an you know, well armed military, cutting 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:09.240 edge technology, backing and funding of the world's most powerful state, 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:14.199 most powerful superpower, the United States, and then there is Hamas. 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.720 That doesn't make Hamas the good guys or whatever I'm saying, 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.400 it's just a clear indication of the power imbalance. You know, 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:25.880 there is a clear power imbalance. And I think, like 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:29.360 to what you were saying, the last one hundred plus 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.280 days have made it perfectly clear that for all the 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:35.200 talk of like the Arab States supporting Palestinians, like, it's 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.679 clear Israel could literally genocide Palestinians in broad daylight. In 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:40.920 the Arab States who do nothing. There is no giant 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.400 Arab green monster that is protecting the Palestinian like the Palestinians. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.680 Only Arab comrades right now are the Houthis in Yemen 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.560 and has Bollah in Lebanon, both of which are non 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:57.000 government militant organizations. They are not like, it is not 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:02.280 the State of Yemen who is supporting the Palestinians. It's 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.319 not the State of Lebanon. It is these militant states 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.160 within states pretty much. And yeah, so it's like you 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.920 have to remember when Israel claims were just they were 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.360 a small state the size of New Jersey, you know, 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.480 in a tough neighborhood, and trying to make you know, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:22.600 the West Bank and Gaza look like the spear's tip 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:25.560 of an Arab invasion. You have to remember that's not 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.400 the case. The truth of it is is like you 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.000 want to talk about how small Israel is, look how 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:35.720 small the Gaza strip is, and that you know alone, 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.480 to like look at that picture to know they are 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:43.680 surrounded and to see that there's no way out. That 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.840 I think changes the narrative for people. And it's a 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.680 narrative that the Israelis don't like to show. They don't 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:53.040 like to show the West Bank and you know, in 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.920 terms of how it is cut into cantons that are 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:04.160 basically everything is surrounded by Israeli settlements. In Israeli military. 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.120 They took the best agricultural lands for themselves, you know 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.959 what I mean, like they really And also I think 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.560 talking about seeing the Gaza on a map, it's really 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.199 infuriating to me because I feel like in the last 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.200 couple of months more people have seen what Gaza looks 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.560 like on a map than ever before. And we see 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:23.920 how fucking small it is, and it's described as being 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.440 five miles at one point, like from the sea to 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.840 the whatever, and it's still not enough of aable, you know, 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.040 it's to the wall, literally to the wall. But like 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.640 it's just even seeing how mini school it is is 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:41.040 still not enough for people to be like, oh, thirty 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.560 thousand people dying in this little strip of land. 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.280 We should think about that, like right, yeah, no, I 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:52.680 mean no, it's it is it is. My point is 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:58.040 basically to dispel the idea that, like the Hesbara has 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:04.000 been Israel, small there or deserves support and people standing 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:09.400 with it because small because scary, small, scary because baby puppy, 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:14.880 because a little little you know, please help, And that 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.400 visual is just such a it's such a gross lie. 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:26.080 And you know, you've anything to make the Palestinians, you know, 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:31.080 seem bigger than they are, is helpful for Israel, and 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.600 that's why they do it. You know, this is this 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.160 is a way to invert the victim and the victimizer. 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.120 And it's clear as day. Other things that are clear 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:45.360 as day, these products and services that we're going to 0:15:45.400 --> 0:16:01.400 be selling. So stick around, we'll be right back and 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:06.640 we're back again. People in the West, by and large, 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:12.840 prefer the Israeli explanation. They're fine living in this alternate reality. 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.920 And you know, people believe it for like a variety 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.760 of reasons. Some people because they were raised to believe it, 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.440 some people because they just want to believe it. But 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.360 I think mostly most people in the West just don't 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.840 really care enough about like Palestinians to like look into 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.760 it like they're you know, they're just it's one of 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.440 many news stories too. I think a lot of people 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.200 it's easy to put in a box and to be honest, 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.680 you know, like wouldn't that be nice to be able 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:46.280 to compartmentalize like it would for me? Shit, it would 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.200 make me way less stressed if I could just not care. 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.440 And that's not to like call out anyone who doesn't care, 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.960 because I do think that it is absolutely human and 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:01.320 valid to have some things that you just don't have 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.359 emotional capacity to care about. I think my issue is 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:11.000 not whether or not people are like, you know, supporting 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.199 Palisine on their social media or whatnot. My issue is 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.239 whether or not they're just going to allow themselves to 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:22.200 be manipulated and then end up defending the indefensible because 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.399 of it. Like if you're if you're not going to 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.280 say nothing, don't do hasbara. That's my that's my feeling 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.320 about it. But yeah, you know, people want to put 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.480 in the box. Beyond that, I think there's also no 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.760 incentive for a lot of people to believe in it, 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.000 in fact, to even question who are the victims and 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:44.639 the victimizers in the whole Israeli Palestine quote unquote conflict, 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.760 Like it brings up a dark, twisted irony that most 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.520 people don't even want to entertain. You know, people don't 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.280 want to think about that stuff. And it also it 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.600 people worry about whether or not they're going to get 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:04.479 in trouble. And that brings me to another part of 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.679 this speech I found from the Middle East Policy Council 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:13.400 about haspara quote it also seeks to actively inculcate canons 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.680 of political correctness in domestic and foreign media and audiences 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:21.200 that will promote self censorship by them. It strives thereby 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:26.119 to decrease the willingness of audiences to consider information linked 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:31.880 to politically unacceptable viewpoints, individuals and groups, and to inhibit 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:36.280 the circulation of adverse information and social networks. It focuses 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:43.560 on limiting the receptivity of audiences to information. So hasbar 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:47.960 is fucking orwellian? That is? I think one of the 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.960 things that interests me about it a lot is how 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.960 Orwellian it is. You know, it goes beyond mere branding 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.560 when the Israeli government and pro Israel institutions like so 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.760 effectively mold the parameters of what is and isn't politically correct, 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:06.720 not just like in their own country, but in other 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:10.840 countries in the West. Like, think about the self censorship 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.000 that you the listener do around this issue. Think about 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.760 the times you wanted to say something but didn't because 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.239 you didn't know the exact right way to say it, 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.440 you know, like how to put it. And like think 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.480 about the times that you were reading something critical of 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.880 Israel by someone you trust and agree with, and one 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:35.600 sentence or one word or one turn of phrase triggered 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:39.240 you into questioning not just the validity of the thing 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.240 you were reading, but like the nature of the person 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.399 who wrote it. Think about your reaction to me saying 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.720 these things about Israel, and about how you felt when 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.520 Sharene made a lot of these points on some other 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:57.359 episode of this podcast, you know, like think about why 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.399 that changes things for you. And like there was a 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:06.960 time where I was also uncomfortable and like I would 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.600 only feel comfortable at hearing criticism and doing criticism of 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.280 Israel in the presence of other Jews, like it had 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:18.240 to be in a you know, private all Jewish Facebook 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.680 group or in like in person or through text messages. 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:26.760 Like I was so suspicious of the secret motives of 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.280 non Jewish people criticizing Israel, right, Like, like someone could 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.880 literally say something that I one hundred percent agreed with, 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.040 something that I myself had said, and then I would 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.320 still get this icky feeling from them saying it, like yeah, 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.280 but why are they saying it? Like why do you care? 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:50.600 Like that is probably Hasbara's greatest success to relegate the 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.679 issue of Palestinian human and civil rights to a niche 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:59.280 subject that is best talked about in private and only 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:03.959 by Jews. So I mean, Sharen, I know that, like 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.879 for you, you've got you get shipped for this, you 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:09.760 know I do. 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.440 Yeah, I feel like I'm done qualifying in my real 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.400 life especially and also just like in work. I'm done 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:20.479 qualifying whether or not something I say is or is 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:25.640 not whatever, because I'm if I'm even entertaining the idea 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:28.760 that criticizing Israel is anti Semitic, that's like feeding the fire. 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.280 I don't want to even bring that into I don't 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:35.080 want to associate that religion and the state of Israel. 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:39.000 And I feel like the more we have those disclaimers, 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.880 the more it's conflated. And I've definitely, I mean, I've 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:45.399 had a lot of anti Zionist Jewish people on this show, 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:50.040 almost almost to like show people that like, listen to 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:52.880 these people with actual experience. 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.520 Yes, and that's not to it's not to you know, 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.280 say you shouldn't. And none of this is me saying like, hey, 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:05.719 you shouldn't listen to anti Zionist Jews or whatnot, or 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:08.600 just like you know, like or you shouldn't be discerning 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.280 about who you're getting your information for, because yeah, there 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.840 are Nazis who are you know, wrap themselves in the 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:19.320 guise of being anti Israel or like you know, anti 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:23.960 occupation or whatnot. That none of this is putting down 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:29.199 anyone for being discerning or being careful, but it's to 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:33.440 say that like Hasbara has quite an effect on even 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:38.439 the most conscious of people. Like making Zionism and Judaism 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:42.159 synonymous and like practically indistinguishable is like one of his 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:46.399 Bar's like greatest achievements, presenting Jewish support of Israel as 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:50.280 monolithic save for like a few cranks you know, who 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:53.719 are the exception that prove the rule. You know, like 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:57.240 non Jews don't want to criticize criticize Israel because they 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:00.680 don't want to upset their Jewish friends, or they don't 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:03.480 want to be labeled an anti Semite. You know. It's like, 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:08.120 you know, after the large public outcry about Israel's brutal 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:11.040 response to the Homosteris attacks of October seventh, there was 0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:14.440 a big push among Hasbaris to frame all Jews of 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:18.399 the world as feeling abandoned by the left and abandoned 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:21.919 by their friends. You had people like Brett Gelman, Oh 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:23.960 my god, from a stranger. 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:26.400 Walking dumps, I hate him so much, Oh my. 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:30.920 God, fucking wooly Willie over here going on Instagram being 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:35.600 like hey, fake woke former friends, and like he gave 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.680 a speech at the like Stand with Israel March that 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:43.720 was something like the Jews don't need you, like presenting 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.520 the you know, the idea of people criticizing Israel, or 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:51.399 like not wanting at the very least not wanting the 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:58.560 complete obliteration of Palestinians in Gaza. Framing that is like, oh, well, 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:03.119 all the Jews want that, you know, like his whole 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:06.520 thing of being like the Jews don't need you, as 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:11.960 if he and Israel represented all Jews, like presenting the 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.640 Jews of the world as a monolith, as if non 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:18.280 Zionist or anti Zionist Jews don't even exist, as if 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:21.200 we all felt this way, Like you don't want to 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:23.840 hate Jews, do you? Of course, if you don't, then 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:26.840 you gotta let Israel do whatever the hell it wants. 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:27.480 You know. 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:30.200 I think what really bothers me about him? I mean 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.440 everything bothers me about him, But like people like him, 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:37.200 they'll sometimes preface what they're saying with hey, I care 0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:41.119 about Palestinians and then continue on their their whatever tirade. 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:46.320 There's ionis bullshit. And it's like, it's just it really 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:48.480 boggles my mind because I think he thinks he's a 0:24:48.520 --> 0:24:52.359 good person. I really think that he believes he's a 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:55.840 good person when really he's just a piece of shit 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:58.080 that does not see a huge group of people as 0:24:58.119 --> 0:24:58.720 human beings. 0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:01.280 Yes, does not see people is human. And this is 0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:06.080 something that you I think that anyone who's like a 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:09.680 self described liberal or leftist or whatever would be able 0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:12.919 to easily recognize in any other situation. But it's just 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:18.520 it's it's it's clouded in this particular situation because of 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:24.400 this conflation, because you are willing to believe that Jews 0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:28.800