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Speaker 1: Hell, Hello, and welcome to My Favorite Murder.

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Speaker 2: So this is very exciting for us when you hear this.

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Speaker 2: We're about to do our first live show after six years.

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Speaker 2: We'll be doing two of them in Denver.

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Speaker 1: I can feel my nerves from the future in Denver. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so because of that, we're bringing you a quilt

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Speaker 1: episode where we combine two of our favorite Colorado stories.

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Speaker 1: First up, Karen is covering the twisted cult of Love

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Speaker 1: has Won and it's leader Amy Carlson.

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Speaker 2: And then Georgia, we'll be telling you the story of

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Speaker 2: the cold case murders of Barbara Olberholtzer and Annette Schnee.

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Speaker 1: So the Denver show the is already sold out, but

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Speaker 1: limited tickets are available in some other cities. So go

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Speaker 1: to My Favorite Murder dot com slash live to get yours.

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Speaker 2: And now please enjoy this Colorado quilt episode.

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Speaker 1: Goodbye.

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Speaker 2: So this is something that cropped up and I remember

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Speaker 2: it from basically kind of mid quarantine, before any kind

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Speaker 2: of vaccination had been developed, when we were all still

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Speaker 2: washing our hands for thirty seconds while singing the theme

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Speaker 2: to the Mister Rogers Neighborhood or whatever, like just past

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Speaker 2: the point where we were wiping down cereal boxes but

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Speaker 2: still stuck in our houses and very unsure is yeah,

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Speaker 2: what was going on? So this was the kind of

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Speaker 2: story that when it popped up, it was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's what's that about? And it just kind of like

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Speaker 2: hit my radar essentially. So this is the story of

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Speaker 2: the death of Amy Carlson and the Love Has Won cult.

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Speaker 2: So there's an amazing article by Virginia Pelly. I hope

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Speaker 2: I'm pronouncing that right, Virginia in the magazine Marie Claire

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Speaker 2: called Love has Lost. Got a lot of information about

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Speaker 2: that because it was very comprehensive. Also, there's an article

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Speaker 2: in the Washington Post by Marisa at there's an episode

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Speaker 2: of Doctor Phil that actually has the whole family of

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Speaker 2: Amy Carlson on it. A Vice documentary called False Gods,

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Speaker 2: Cult Leader, Abuser or Goddess, Meet Mother God, a BBC

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Speaker 2: News article by Joshua Nevitt, a Denver Post article by

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Speaker 2: Noel Phillips. There's obviously a Wikipedia article, a People Magazine

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Speaker 2: article by Jeff Truesdale, and a Honolulu Star Advisor article

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Speaker 2: by the Star Advisor staff. For a second, I thought

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Speaker 2: it was a woman named Star Advisor. It's just like

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Speaker 2: a way to go. And it's funny because this is

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Speaker 2: such a recent story. There's been so far, doesn't rying

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Speaker 2: bells Okay? So in September of twenty twenty, so about

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Speaker 2: six months into quarantine, there's a news story out of Kawhi,

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite Hawaiian islands, Beautiful, that popped up

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Speaker 2: about a group of roughly eleven people calling themselves Love

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Speaker 2: Has Won, who tried to relocate to the island from

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Speaker 2: Colorado in August of twenty twenty. So aside from breaking

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Speaker 2: the States quarantine protocols, the group, whom many believe to

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Speaker 2: be a cult, had been co opting Native religious practices

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Speaker 2: and generally pissing everyone off in the island. Because many

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Speaker 2: of us know who like to go to Hawaii and

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Speaker 2: like to visit there, it's like going to a very

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Speaker 2: small town and you know it's white people are very

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Speaker 2: invasive over there. Their tourists and there oftentimes can be

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Speaker 2: very disrespectful. So ingratiating yourself into the culture over there

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Speaker 2: is a very important part of visiting those islands because

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Speaker 2: it's about respecting. The reason you love it there so

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Speaker 2: much is because of the Hawaiian people and the Native culture,

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Speaker 2: and so a big group of people coming over there

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Speaker 2: and basically ripping them off and you know, disrespecting basically, yeah,

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Speaker 2: just being kind of a bunch of assholes. It of

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Speaker 2: course didn't sit well. People were immediate and also they

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Speaker 2: already knew because this was the second cult that had

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Speaker 2: come to Kui during the quarantine. So this was actually

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Speaker 2: a kind of problem for the people.

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Speaker 1: They're the locals, especially like the fact that they're disrespecting

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Speaker 1: them and possibly bringing COVID over.

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Speaker 2: It's like, yes, it's unsafe, it's really shitty, it's disrespectful,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, go fuck yourself. So there was vandalism,

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Speaker 2: there was several small fires. It was just a huge

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Speaker 2: problem almost from the get go, and so for the

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Speaker 2: safety of the residents of Kawhi, the police end up

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Speaker 2: escorting this group of people back to the airport on

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Speaker 2: September fourth, and they end up flying back home to Colorado.

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Speaker 2: So at the time, this story was just kind of

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Speaker 2: a blip in an already very overwhelming news cycle until

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Speaker 2: about seven months later, on the night of Wednesday, April

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Speaker 2: twenty eighth, twenty twenty one, when forty three year old

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Speaker 2: Miguel Lamboy arrives at the Salida police station near the

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Speaker 2: tiny hundred person mountain town of Moffat, Colorado in Swich County.

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Speaker 2: So basically, Lamboy is there to report that a group

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Speaker 2: of people have brought a dead body into his home.

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Speaker 2: He explains it's the corpse of Amy Carlson, the leader

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Speaker 2: of a local religious group Love has Won, and they

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Speaker 2: got there the day before and they needed a place

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Speaker 2: to stay. Lamboy has also is a member of this

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Speaker 2: religious group unquote, and he didn't realize they had this

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Speaker 2: body until the next day. And so there are seven

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Speaker 2: people I believe in the group. And so when he

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Speaker 2: does realize this dead body is in his house, he

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Speaker 2: takes his two year old son and he goes to leave,

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Speaker 2: and they say you can leave, but the boy has

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Speaker 2: to stay here, and that's when he decided it's time

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Speaker 2: to go to the police. So the police, the local

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Speaker 2: police are well aware of this group. Many locals have

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Speaker 2: claimed it's a cult, and the Sawich County Sheriff's Department

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Speaker 2: was quoted as saying, quote, they've received many complaints from

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Speaker 2: families saying that the group is brainwashing people and stealing

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Speaker 2: their money, and that from all over the country not

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Speaker 2: just in the area. So, according to Miguel Lamboy, this

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Speaker 2: group drove from California to Colorado with Carlson's dead body

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Speaker 2: in the back of their suv Holy shit, and then

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Speaker 2: they landed at his house because they needed a place

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Speaker 2: to stay. So the police are granted a search warrant

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Speaker 2: for Lamboy's house, which they execute at around eleven fifty

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Speaker 2: that night, and they find this group of seven people

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Speaker 2: as well as the dead body as Lamboy had described

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Speaker 2: to them, but the body is an even more disturbing

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Speaker 2: state than they had imagined. In the back bedroom, police

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Speaker 2: discover what appears to be a mummified corpse with gray

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Speaker 2: skin wrap in a sleeping bag, lying on a bed.

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Speaker 2: Her teeth are showing through her lips, her eyes are missing,

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Speaker 2: and her eye sockets are painted with glittery makeup.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: The whole body is wrapped in Christmas lights. What and

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Speaker 2: a shrine has been She's basically surrounded by a shrine

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Speaker 2: of trinkets and different lights.

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Speaker 1: How do seven people like agree that this is? Like

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Speaker 1: seven people? That's so many. I mean, that's what cults do.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean it's the This is a long

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Speaker 2: this has been a long process to getting to this point. Basically,

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Speaker 2: so all seven adults are arrested and charged with abuse

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Speaker 2: of a corpse. And because one woman who's in this group,

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Speaker 2: her name's Karen Raymond, her thirteen year old daughter is

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Speaker 2: with the group and Lamboy's two year old son are

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Speaker 2: in the house, the group is also charged with two

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Speaker 2: counts of child abuse, even though both she'll have found

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Speaker 2: asleep and safe. It's just child abuse that they would

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Speaker 2: even be in that scenario. So Raymond's daughter's taken into

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Speaker 2: social services custody after the mom's arrest. Lamboy's two year

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Speaker 2: old son has returned to him after the search of

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Speaker 2: the house is finished. So when the corner inspects the body,

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Speaker 2: it's so decomposed that fingerprints can't be taken, and it

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Speaker 2: leads him to believe that Amy Carlson must have been

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Speaker 2: dead for at least a month, if not longer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh chills.

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Speaker 2: In fact, the body is so decomposed it takes him

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Speaker 2: three months to confirm that this is indeed the body

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Speaker 2: of forty five year old Amy Carlson. So over the

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Speaker 2: weekend following the raid, other members of the Love Has

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Speaker 2: Won group post a video on their Facebook page about

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Speaker 2: their leader's death, saying that she has ascended to the

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Speaker 2: fifth dimension. So this video is later deleted, but Carlson's

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Speaker 2: devoted followers still hold this belief, and in fact, the

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Speaker 2: idea of Amy's ascension had become the main tenant of

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Speaker 2: the group. Amy was called Mother God in this group,

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Speaker 2: and she claimed to already have been reincarnated five hundred times. WHOA, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that sounds exhausting, she well, and more so when you

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Speaker 2: realize that she has already been Jesus, Joan of Arc

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Speaker 2: and Marilyn Monroe. Right, as this is the old joke.

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Speaker 2: No one ever is reincarnated as just the person down

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Speaker 2: the street. It's always Joan of Arc. And on her

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Speaker 2: next ascension, she was telling believers in these video streams

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Speaker 2: that she was making that starships were going to come

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Speaker 2: and take her away, and that when she ascended, her

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Speaker 2: followers would finally learn this truth that a powerful quote

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Speaker 2: unquote cabal had been keeping from the people of Earth

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Speaker 2: in every incarnation, that she had so right when she

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Speaker 2: was about to right, when the people of Earth about

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Speaker 2: to learn like the ultimate truth, the cabal comes in

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Speaker 2: kills her and keeps the truth from coming out. That's

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Speaker 2: basically her theory. What a bummer, right, It's really unfortunate

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Speaker 2: and kind of kind of tidy. You know, it's all

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Speaker 2: just this one. This is the reason we're all suffering

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Speaker 2: one cabal of like rich people. It's the same as

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Speaker 2: you always hear. It's like the cabal is super rich people,

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Speaker 2: Hollywood people, and you know, and then just like villains

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Speaker 2: from around the world, any non believers that don't follow

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Speaker 2: Mother God will be sent to live on the quote

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Speaker 2: central galactic sun or be turned into rocks. So there's

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Speaker 2: a former member named Ash McCoy who said that the

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Speaker 2: shrine that the police found around the body wasn't new.

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Speaker 2: They didn't put that there when the body got there.

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Speaker 2: It had actually been made long before Amy Carlson's death,

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Speaker 2: with the idea that when she did finally ascend in

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Speaker 2: this lifetime, her followers would want a place where they

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Speaker 2: could come and commemorate her life and basically treat it

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Speaker 2: like a museum exhibit. So they have been preparing for

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Speaker 2: her quote unquote ascension for years.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: The members of the Love Is One cult are convinced

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Speaker 2: their leader, Mother God will go down in history as

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Speaker 2: the greatest being who has ever lived, which is just

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Speaker 2: if you think about all of this is just a

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Speaker 2: perfect twenty twenty one vibe, just like super intense, super apocalyptic.

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Speaker 2: Everything's like everything is conspiracy. It's simplistic and it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like do what I say, yeah, or the cabal

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Speaker 2: will get you.

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Speaker 1: It's because we're living in an unprecedented time, so anything

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Speaker 1: as possible, and people just want to believe something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, people are disenfranchised, they're scared, they're alone. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people are sick or feel like they can't, they're

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Speaker 2: not healthy, and they're looking for answers online. Right, And

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Speaker 2: as many as many webmbs and like websites that are,

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Speaker 2: you know, standardly reliable, there are just as many websites

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Speaker 2: that start out as kind of new age quote unquote

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Speaker 2: holistic medicine, alternative practices that and that's how this started. Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so we'll talk about Amy Carlson's early life. She's born

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Speaker 2: on November thirtieth, nineteen seventy five, and grows up in Dallas,

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Speaker 2: Texas with her two sisters, Chelsea and Tara. Their parents

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Speaker 2: divorce when Amy's young. She lives with her dad at first,

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Speaker 2: but then she goes back to live with her mom

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Speaker 2: and her new stepdad. She's a popular, straight a student

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Speaker 2: with a beautiful singing voice, and her sisters say she

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Speaker 2: was always really sweet and kind, but as she gets older,

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Speaker 2: she starts dating a lot of controlling or abusive men.

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Speaker 2: By the time she's in her early twenties, she's basically

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Speaker 2: on her third marriage, Oh my god, and she has

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Speaker 2: a child with each husband, so she has a daughter

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Speaker 2: and two sons. But then and after her third marriage,

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Speaker 2: she basically starts to settle down. She gets a manager

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Speaker 2: job at the local McDonald's, and her family and friends

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Speaker 2: people on the outside believe.

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Speaker 1: That she's happy.

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Speaker 2: But shortly after her third child is born, there's a

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Speaker 2: noticeable change in her personality. She begins to grow distant.

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Speaker 2: Her mom, Linda, admits all that Amy's never really been maternal,

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Speaker 2: but now she's basically become a neglectful mother, and she

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Speaker 2: disengages from her children's lives, and she's spending all her

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Speaker 2: time online looking at bizarre new ag kind of websites.

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Speaker 2: And this is when her basically her worldly view begins

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Speaker 2: to change. Then Amy starts meeting up with the people

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Speaker 2: that are also on these websites, meeting them in real life,

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Speaker 2: and soon she's constantly talking about these things about ascension,

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Speaker 2: about alternative medicine, about starships, all kinds of kind of

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Speaker 2: nonsensical New Age philosophy. And then when Ami in her

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Speaker 2: early thirties, she decides to leave her husband and her children,

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Speaker 2: who are aged two, seven and twelve. Oh heartbreaking, heartbreaking.

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Speaker 2: She moves out of state with an unidentified man that

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Speaker 2: she had met online.

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Speaker 1: It reminds me so much so far of Heaven's Gate.

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Speaker 2: Yes, of the yeah yeah, of the idea of people

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Speaker 2: that have always kind of been unhappy in some way

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Speaker 2: that stumble upon a group.

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Speaker 1: That has all the answers. Oh way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So she moves out of state. Her family tries

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Speaker 2: to contact her, she doesn't ever respond. She basically cuts

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Speaker 2: herself off from her family completely. They're convinced Amy's new

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Speaker 2: boyfriend has tricked her into joining a cult, but when

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Speaker 2: she finally re emerges and they see her again years later,

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Speaker 2: she's the one.

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Speaker 1: That's leading the cults. Oh twists. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the man Amy ran off with called himself Father

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Speaker 2: God and convinces Amy that she's Mother God, and he

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Speaker 2: brings her to Crestone Call Her, which is a remote

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Speaker 2: area two hundred miles south of Denver that is considered

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Speaker 2: sacred by the Native people, and because of that, it's

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Speaker 2: attracted it's almost like a Sedona type of town in Colorado.

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Speaker 2: It's attracted spiritual seekers for decades. The town itself only

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Speaker 2: has about eighteen hundred people, but it has over or

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Speaker 2: around twenty four spiritual centers the full range of There's Buddhists,

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Speaker 2: there's Catholic, there's it's I mean, it's everything. So after

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Speaker 2: a couple years, father and Mother God split up, but

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Speaker 2: Amy keeps the title Mother God.

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Speaker 1: And they can't make it work. Yeah, who can.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's a real sign relationships are so hard

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Speaker 2: that gods can't even get it. So she of course

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Speaker 2: keeps on basically pursuing these interests, and then she starts

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Speaker 2: releasing YouTube videos and Facebook live streams, and she is

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Speaker 2: claims to be the leader of a group called the

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Speaker 2: Galactic Federation of a Life, so it's not in any

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Speaker 2: way associated with Star Trek. She preaches about her plan

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Speaker 2: to save humanity, and in these videos, at first she's

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Speaker 2: just the voiceover and it's just kind of like images,

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Speaker 2: but then after a while she's front and center. She's

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Speaker 2: the leader and she's got followers in the videos who

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Speaker 2: were talking about Amy as if she is God.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So we've gone from this kind of like, oh, an

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Speaker 2: alternative to Western medicine to I Am God, which is

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Speaker 2: pretty that's a pretty steep incline. And then in twenty

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Speaker 2: eighteen is when they change the name of the group

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Speaker 2: to Love Has Won. So Amy's followers believe that she's

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Speaker 2: God in human form and being with an elevated consciousness

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Speaker 2: that's been continually reincarnating for the last nineteen billion years

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Speaker 2: so that she can complete her mission, which is to

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Speaker 2: save humanity by leading a chosen one hundred and forty

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Speaker 2: four thousand people into the mystical dimension. They claim that

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Speaker 2: she's currently on her five hundred and thirty fourth incarnation,

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Speaker 2: and she also claims, very strangely, after Robin Williams dies

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Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, that she has a direct spiritual connection

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Speaker 2: with him. We've been alone for real. She broadcasts herself

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Speaker 2: channeling on these live streams. She claims that Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: was her father and in another lifetime.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't brag about that. But to the.

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Speaker 2: People who are starting to get into this kind of

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Speaker 2: like this, it's a conspiracy community. So she's kind of

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Speaker 2: using the buzzwords that attract people who are online in

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Speaker 2: the first place because they're kind of like starting to

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Speaker 2: be believers in these things. And they're also I've said

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Speaker 2: this before, but it's my personal theory. These are people

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Speaker 2: that didn't grow up with computers. They don't understand that

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Speaker 2: websites can be made by anyone, right, and they can

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Speaker 2: say anything.

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Speaker 1: I mean, talk to Janet. It's just how.

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Speaker 2: It is for people that it's like they're looking at

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Speaker 2: their people who grew up with one newspaper and that

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Speaker 2: newspaper was just telling you the truth. There was no

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Speaker 2: reason to question it. So now we're in the world

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Speaker 2: of the digital age of anyone can make any website,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly everything is this kind of believable. And it's

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Speaker 2: also about numbers. The more people believe it, the more

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Speaker 2: believable it gets.

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Speaker 1: I definitely screamed at my mom the other day, what

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Speaker 1: was the source? What was the source? That's something fucking

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Speaker 1: but Nana's batshit thing. She said it was www That's

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Speaker 1: the source. So a lot of her teachings end up

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Speaker 1: dovetailing with QAnon conspiracy theories and basically the entire foundation

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Speaker 1: of Love has one draws from New Age spirituality, Christianity, astrology, scientology, numerology,

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Speaker 1: and basically anything else that appeals to amy and that

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Speaker 1: appeals to kind of like quote unquote spiritual seekers. She

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Speaker 1: claims to have lived in the magical ancient land of Uria.

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Speaker 1: She claims the lost city of Atlantis is real but

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Speaker 1: sunk from an explosion that took place after a certain

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Speaker 1: technology was stolen, and that her and her followers must

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Speaker 1: fight an everlasting war against the cabal. And that's all

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Speaker 1: the same. That's that's kind of same theme that comes

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Speaker 1: up all the time, is that it's people declaring this

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Speaker 1: small group are the pure, they're the noble.

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Speaker 2: They're the they're the they're there heroes of the story,

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Speaker 2: and that basically whoever they decide, Hollywood, rich people, whoever,

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Speaker 2: you know, believable, believable theories. But it's like but that

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Speaker 2: these people are then whatever they decide, and that they're

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Speaker 2: they're trying to attack them, they're trying to kill them,

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Speaker 2: they're trying to they're trying to squash the truth, the truth,

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Speaker 2: and keep the world in darkness essentially. So there's anywhere

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Speaker 2: from twelve to twenty followers who actually live with Amy,

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Speaker 2: like in a commune between Colorado, California, or again sometimes Florida.

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Speaker 2: They wind up Basically, they come back to that area

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Speaker 2: in Colorado on two pieces of land, one ranch house

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Speaker 2: in Salita and then this mobile home and Moffitt. These

334
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 2: two places become the home base for the group. So

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Speaker 2: essentially how it goes is every day at six in

336
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Speaker 2: the morning, Amy and her followers begin about a three

337
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Speaker 2: hour live stream, and in the beginning the videos are

338
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Speaker 2: about energy connecting with spirit, essentially new Age stuff that's

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Speaker 2: like lots of people ascribed to and that isn't in

340
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Speaker 2: any way destructive. Yeah, Then they start talking a lot

341
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Speaker 2: about frequencies and about you know, negative versus positive. It's

342
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Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Then basically the videos devolve into

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Speaker 2: these outlandish concepts about the cabal and you know, them

344
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Speaker 2: being hunted.

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Speaker 1: And all of that.

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Speaker 2: There's two young women in the group that serve as

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Speaker 2: basically hosts at the top of the show, and their

348
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 2: group names are Archia Hope and Archia Aurora, and they're

349
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Speaker 2: like young, kind of beautiful women who like it's just

350
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Speaker 2: it's good marketing. Yeah, Basically they're hosting this and talking

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Speaker 2: about the tenets of these beliefs, but they get into

352
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Speaker 2: some stuff that's like incredibly fucked up. They start talking

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Speaker 2: about like basically the pros of Hitler.

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Speaker 1: I knew it. I knew. I pointed at myself because

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Speaker 1: I was like, you're like there were anti this and that.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, say, jus like.

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Speaker 2: Come on, well, that's the thing is they they're basically

358
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Speaker 2: kind of floating the idea of being Holocaust andiurs and

359
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Speaker 2: then floating the idea of maybe that Hitler's intentions were

360
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: better than you know, it's all that shit. Yeah, And

361
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Speaker 2: basically they they preach Amy's god status, her plan to

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Speaker 2: save humanity, and they start offering these things called spiritual surgeries.

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Speaker 2: So that's a virtual healing session with Amy. It costs

364
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 2: eighty eight dollars. She does spiritual surgery on you and

365
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Speaker 2: claims that she can cure everything from addiction to cancer,

366
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Speaker 2: saying that her words in her hands have strong healing powers.

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Speaker 2: So this is where they get people who are sick,

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Speaker 2: people who have who have gone to doctor after a

369
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Speaker 2: doctor of a typical Western medicine and haven't been cured

370
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Speaker 2: and or been told that they're it's all in their mind,

371
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Speaker 2: or they've been treated poorly by traditional doctors, and they're

372
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Speaker 2: they're on here looking for other stuff. So in the beginning,

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Speaker 2: that idea, and sometimes it really is just that mental

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Speaker 2: thing of somebody going I can spiritually surgically cure you

375
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Speaker 2: over the internet. And just the idea of that there's

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Speaker 2: a solution and it's eighty eight dollars is very alluring

377
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 2: to people. Then you're coming in with and while we're here,

378
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Speaker 2: maybe we'll talk about how the Holocaust isn't real. I mean,

379
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Speaker 2: they're playing upon people who are already like at low

380
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Speaker 2: points and weak.

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Speaker 1: Runs in their life.

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Speaker 2: So as insane as that seems, Love has One's Facebook

383
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Speaker 2: group climbs to about twenty thousand members shit and their

384
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Speaker 2: YouTube channel gains nearly ten thousand followers, and their videos

385
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Speaker 2: have like one point five million views. So people are watching.

386
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Speaker 2: We don't know how they're watching or what their approaches,

387
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 2: but it's being seen. There's lots of fan engagement. Viewers

388
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 2: communicate with each other in the comment sections, and Amy

389
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 2: and her followers answer questions or give shout outs to

390
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 2: people who are commenting in the live streams. Plus, of course,

391
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 2: the crucial element of it, money is pouring into the

392
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: group in the form of donations made out to either

393
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 2: loves One or Mother's Joy. So throughout the duration of

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00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: this group, Love has won. They see a rotating cast

395
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 2: of father Gods who partner up with Amy, but the

396
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: most notable is the most recent, Jason Cristio. He joins

397
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 2: Amy in mid twenty eighteen when the group changes its

398
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: name to Love His One. It's uncertain how he and

399
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 2: Amy have met, but what is certain is his criminal record.

400
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 2: His rap sheet list charges for drunk driving, breaking and entering,

401
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: and child neglect. So after his arrival, things on the

402
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 2: commune go from bad to worse. Members are only allowed

403
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: to sleep when Mother God sleeps, so they're usually limited

404
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 2: to maybe four or five hours a night. They're always

405
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 2: forced to rise at five am. The live streaming starts

406
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 2: at six am every single day, and they usually last

407
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 2: three hours. They are also not allowed to sit for

408
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 2: very long. No, the whole thing is leading to exhaustion

409
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: for every time totally. And here's the other one. They're underfed,

410
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: so Carlson claims that eating too much is a symptom

411
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 2: of our rampant ego, which Amy claims stands for edging

412
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 2: God out. They're only allowed to get small amounts of

413
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: food that are donated from local food banks and no

414
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 2: snackings allowed. So they've bame out.

415
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: I'm out on so many levels.

416
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: I can't I can't do any of it. I'm all

417
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 2: about that ego. But this is this is fucking by

418
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 2: the book cult brainwashing practices, exhaustion and starvation. The members

419
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: live on there on the compound rent free, but they

420
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: have to serve Mother God with whatever she needs, and

421
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 2: they don't get paid for anything, and they don't get

422
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: any of the donation money. Most of the time, members

423
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 2: wind up giving whatever money they have to Mother God.

424
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: And as one former member named Taylor puts it, quote,

425
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: everything is revolved around Amy, of course, but she's not

426
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 2: the gentle, compassionate leader that she claims to be. Even

427
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 2: though drugs and alcohol are espressly forbidden in the group,

428
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: she drinks to excess every day and openly on camera.

429
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Speaker 2: What yeah, so this is a real like we're watching

430
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: this is? This really parallels the Synanon story where the

431
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 2: leader who starts out with these really loft goals about

432
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: helping people. It slowly slides into saving humanity, which slides

433
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: into I Am God, which goes right along with some

434
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 2: kind of substance abuse. So when Amy's sober, she puts

435
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 2: on a warm, kind facade, but at night she launches

436
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: into drunken, cursed filled tirades on the live stream holy shit,

437
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: And on one she shouts into the camera quote spiritual ego,

438
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: whores die. If you're not connected to me, you're out damn.

439
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 2: So it's turning.

440
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel so bad for her kids back at home,

441
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: like I have to be explained where mom is. It's

442
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 1: so sad, it's so sad.

443
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's a lot of victims here.

444
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

445
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: She also starts calling the followers atoms at O m

446
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 2: like an atom, And there's one live stream where he

447
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: brings her meatballs for dinner, but she asks for chicken parmesan,

448
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: so she starts screaming, my vision was chicken parmesan. So

449
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 2: the fucking Atoms turn around on and get me meatballs.

450
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: I didn't say meatballs. I love meatballs, but I didn't

451
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 2: fucking say that chicken parmesan. She's just like flipping out

452
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: the fuck and recording it, Like.

453
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: Why that's yeah, you want to hide that behavior.

454
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: You would think. Also, Father God, he also gets in

455
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 2: on it. He can be seen getting into Robertson's face

456
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: and glaring at him with rage and chastising him while

457
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: he while Robertson hangs his head in shame. So he

458
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: got the order wrong and he's just being attacked by

459
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: mother and father. God got you know the way, the Lord,

460
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: the Lord you've always heard about. There's also a thing

461
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: where there's on video they give a two year old

462
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: child a time out by putting it in a closet

463
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: and screaming at the child and saying that they're not

464
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: that normal people. Their child rearing is programming, and it's

465
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: it's basically a society that's the cult. Love has Won

466
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: is the only same group of people got to be it. Okay,

467
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: So around that time is when they try to go

468
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 2: to Kawhi. They basically get kicked out real quick. So

469
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 2: they come back and then so they start pushing these

470
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 2: holistic health products. They make a thing called plasma coasters,

471
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: which quote act as receivers and transmitters with the ability

472
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: to neutralize harmful energy, and you're supposed to put them

473
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 2: in glasses of water. They sell for sixty six dollars

474
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 2: in sixty six fuck.

475
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: They almost like a shrinking ink or something. Yes, see,

476
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: what were those sea creatures you'd put in water? Oh,

477
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: sea monkeys, sea monkeys.

478
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: They also are big on colloidal silver and old supplements.

479
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: Those were big or colloidal silver was huge for a

480
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: while there. So basically they sell their own version of it,

481
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: of course they do, yeah, and they claim that it

482
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: can cure COVID. They end up getting a letter from

483
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: the FDA saying you have to stop claiming this, You

484
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: have to stop selling these products. And they don't. They

485
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: they're not available anymore. So some of their other terrible

486
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 2: medical advice, they'realistic alternative medical advice. They say that turmeric

487
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: cures diabetes, that lemon and baking soda cures cancer. And

488
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: they actually tell people that it's a myth that staring

489
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: into the sun makes you go blind.

490
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: Oh yep.

491
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: They say that you need to stare into the sun

492
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: to receive healing quote unquote like codes and that it

493
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: quote burns away the darkness inside you.

494
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

495
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: They also tell people that you don't have to worry

496
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: about having heart attacks because it's just your heart expanding. No,

497
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: it's okay, it's not so they it's just a bunch

498
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: of super dangerous and very crazy like basically personal theories

499
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: and creative writing that they're now telling people is like

500
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: medical the medical truth.

501
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, dangerous.

502
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: Basically, she's gone so far off the rails that her

503
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: family goes on to doctor Phil in September of twenty

504
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 2: twenty to try to get her to basically be like this,

505
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: you have to come out of this. This is brainwashing.

506
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: And her sisters and mother are there and they're all

507
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: really worried about her. Doctor Phil confronts her about how

508
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: she's not a peaceful being. There's that they show the

509
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: videos of all her cursing and confrontation. She claims that

510
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: one of the reasons is she's been raped several times

511
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: and that her house has burned down, and that she's

512
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: basically grown weary of it all. But essentially it's, you know,

513
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: it just is kind of like it doesn't make uses, yeah,

514
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: and it's an ineffectual way to kind of try to

515
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 2: break this person out of the cults. The problem is

516
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: that her health is clearly on the taking a downturn,

517
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: maybe from the drinking, maybe from all the colloidial silver

518
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 2: that she's constantly ingesting. But they her mom notices on

519
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: the live stream she's being carried around by her followers,

520
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: and she seems to be paralyzed from the waist down.

521
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: What yeah, something her her sisters are seeing it. They're

522
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: so scared and worried. They say that they knew she

523
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: was ill. She looked weak and frail, and that she

524
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: was basically that she was kind of turning a gray

525
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: blue from how much chloidal silver she was ingesting.

526
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: Do we know, like is that not good for you now?

527
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: Like do we know that now? Or it's just large quantities.

528
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 2: I have no idea, but yeah, if she if she

529
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: was ill and they were saying this is what's going

530
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: to fix you, then then right, large quantities of anything

531
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: like that.

532
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: But I know, I'd hate to say anything about chloid

533
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: chloidal silver and not knowing.

534
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: During a live stream on October fifteenth, twenty twenty, two,

535
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: of her followers admit Amy has expressed a desire to

536
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: see a doctor, but they refuse to take her. And

537
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: they say, there's moments when mom has asked us to

538
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: take her to the hospital. Nope, there's no way. We

539
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: know how a hijacking works. So the hijacking is this

540
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: idea that right is when she's about to ascend the

541
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: all comes in kills her and represses the truth. So

542
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: they're basically like, you can't go to the hospital because

543
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: it's a hijacking. So all of her own crazy theories

544
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: are now turned against her, and her followers are basically

545
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: becoming the ones in charge. The last time an outsider

546
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: confirmed seeing Amy alive is on April tenth, twenty twenty one.

547
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: She's in California. She gets a visit from her landlord

548
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: and he sees that he thinks she's dying, like she

549
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: looks so bad. The members say she has cancer, but

550
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: she hasn't gone to a doctor, so there's no official

551
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: diagnosis or records of that anywhere. It's just what the

552
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: followers say. So her mother calls the authorities in California

553
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: asking to do wellness checks, but every time they go

554
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: to where the followers and Amy are, they turn the

555
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: police and the ambulances away. Then on April sixteenth, twenty

556
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: twenty one, a photo is posted in one of the

557
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: Love Has Won private chat rooms of Father God holding

558
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: a very frail, incoherent looking Amy in his arms, and

559
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: it is unclear if she's alive or dead in the photo. Okay,

560
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: so her cause of death is as yet to be

561
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: determined because of the lack of medical records and because

562
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: of the state of the body when the coroner got it.

563
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: Charges against four of the seven members that were arrested

564
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: on April twenty eighth have been dropped, including those against

565
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 2: Father God Jason Castillo. Sawatch County District Attorney Alonzo Payne

566
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: tells Dateline our office looked at all the documents and

567
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: everything that was provided, and from our perspective, the allegations

568
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: could not be met beyond a reasonable doubt. Charges against

569
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: the remaining three members are still pending. The group that

570
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: existed under the name Loves One has since disbanded, but

571
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: many of its members has splintered off and they continue

572
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: preaching the same ideas under different names. And all the

573
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: shops that sold products have been shut down, but Lamboys

574
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: opened a new nonprofit that basically it gets him out

575
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 2: of paying taxes, so any of the money that goes

576
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 2: there they don't have to pay taxes on it. They

577
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: now have one of the groups that still live streams

578
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: has They have a tapestry with a photo of Amy

579
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 2: on it that's like behind them in the shot. Some

580
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,959
Speaker 2: of them are still selling etheric surgeries like the way

581
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 2: that Amy did. Spiritual surgeries. Those are fifty five to

582
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: fifty five for thirty minutes discounted, and they're described as

583
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 2: your ticket to heaven. For the people who have escaped

584
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: Love has Won, their search for spiritual fulfillment continues, but

585
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 2: now with a much more cautious approach. A former member

586
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: goes by the name Sarah does. That's not her real name.

587
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: She's scared of retaliation. She says, Amy took a lot

588
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: of spiritual teachings about vibration and energy that are on

589
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: the right track, but she hijacked them and said they

590
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: were hers. I still believe there's truth in those principles,

591
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,479
Speaker 2: but I'm working on taking Amy out of them. And

592
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: essentially that is the very strange, bizarre death Amy Carlson

593
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: and the story of the Love His Won cult.

594
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: Wow. I want to find out how she died eventually, right.

595
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I mean sounds like she whatever sickness she had, yeah,

596
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 2: there was never any Like they were just doing holistic

597
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: practices and no one there, So she could have gotten

598
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: pancreatic cancer, yeah, or something that's quick and awful and

599
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: just ravage as your body and then she's just taking

600
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 2: colloidal silver or drinking right right, and liver cancer maybe horrifying,

601
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: so fucking wild, I know, wild, great job, so crazy,

602
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 2: Thank you.

603
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: I know.

604
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: Sorry that was so long, but it's like there was

605
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: so much. It's just the weirdest thing because I remembered it.

606
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 2: I remember seeing the story and I think people posting

607
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: about it on Twitter.

608
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 1: But it was just at that.

609
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 2: Point in the pandemic where I'm like, no, only comedies,

610
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: I can't do this, Like I don't want to know,

611
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: I can't look at this.

612
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's wild that, in the middle of a

613
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: pandemic that everyone's freaking out about, you could have such

614
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 1: an like outside wild story. Yeah, it's like, didn't everything stop?

615
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 1: Did everyone's a lifestyle?

616
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: Right? Why didn't you just But also I think it's

617
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 2: like that's the thing, like you said, in these unprecedented times,

618
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: people are scared shitless and they're looking for answers. They're

619
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: looking for easy, like digestible answers and solutions, and it

620
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: makes sense. They're right to want that. They're human to

621
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 2: want that. Yeah, just don't be stupid, just like it's

622
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, well, here's the thing. You know,

623
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 2: there's very clear you know they say in cults, it's like,

624
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: if it's one leader, you're not allowed to contradict, You're

625
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 2: not allowed to like take in outside information. You cut

626
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: yourself off from your family. Like there's the whole there's

627
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: a whole thing of like is your are you just

628
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: you know, is it just a group of people who

629
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: are like minded spiritual seekers or are you are you

630
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: basically being indoctrinated? And those are the things where it's

631
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: like if basically there's one person, the air god, they

632
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 2: have all the answers.

633
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 1: And the rules are theirs.

634
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, to make and suddenly the rules become about Carr,

635
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: you know, like you serve me, yeah, chicken parmesan.

636
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, let's keep it. Let's keep an eye on

637
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: that one. Yeah, yeah, good job, thank you. I'm going

638
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: to tell you a story that I found during one

639
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: of my many late night Cold Case news scrollings that

640
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: piqued my interest and is going on right now, and

641
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: there's a recent twist to it. So the sources I

642
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: used in today's episode are The Guardian, by an article

643
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: by Richard Let's Calm, the Unsolved Mysteries fandom page, which

644
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: is really cool, The Rocky Mountain Cold Case website, a

645
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: UPI article, a New York Times article by Maria Kramer,

646
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: a nine News article by Matt Jablo, and a Fox

647
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: thirty one news article by Evan Krugel. Okay, so, have

648
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: you ever heard of Breckenridge, Colorado?

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00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: No?

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00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: Okay. It's a former mining town dating back to the

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00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: Gold Rush. It's at the base of the Rocky Mountains,

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00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: about eighty miles from Denver. So like a cute, little,

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00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: quaint ski resort town. Lots of beautiful old buildings, breweries,

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00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, like nice restaurants and art scene. Small, cool,

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00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: little town. So. On the evening of January sixth, nineteen

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00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: eighty two, twenty nine year old Barbara Joe ober Holtzer,

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00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: whose nickname is Bobby I'm gonna call her that from

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00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: now on, she is at a Breckinridge bar with some

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00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: friends celebrating a promotion at work. A little before eight pm,

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00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: she decides to leave early and head back to her

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00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: husband named Jeff. Instead of getting ride back with her

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00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: friends who are leaving a little later, she decides to hitchhike,

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00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 1: which of course, is totally normal at the time. Everyone

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00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: hitchhikes around town and the area is known for being

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Speaker 1: a popular ski resort, so there's a lot of rich tourists,

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00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: but the people who live in town, a lot of

667
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: them can't afford their own car, so hitchhiking is the norm.

668
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: Bobby has a couple rules she follows when she hitch hikes.

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00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: She doesn't get into cars with two men in there,

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00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: and she won't it into van. So hitchhiking is super normal,

671
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: but everyone's still a little aware of that it's dangerous

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00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: and are still careful about it. But by the next morning,

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00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: she's not home, and so Jeff, her husband, tries to

674
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: file a missing person's report, but you know, as it

675
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 1: was in the eighties, you can't file one for an adult.

676
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: It's too early. She probably just fucking spent the night

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00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: at a friend's house. Sort of a thing, however, and

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00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 1: so he goes out with his friends trying to find her.

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00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: They can't track her down, but the next day, at

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00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: around three pm, a farmer who lives thirty miles outside

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00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 1: of Breckenridge finds Bobby's license, gets a hold of Jeff,

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00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: and he comes out to pick up the license, and

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00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: on his way he spot something in a snowy field

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00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: and he finds it's Bobby's backpack his wife's backpack, so

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00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: he also finds a blood spattered wool glove and some

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00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: tissues that are also covered in blood, and also found

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00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: there is a woman's orange booty, like her orange sock

688
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: like snow booty that doesn't belong to Bobby. Jeff and

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00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: his friends start searching for Bobby, and two hours later,

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00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: ten miles south of wreckage, they find her body fifteen

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00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: miles from where her backpack was recovered. It's almost like

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00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: someone scattered her, you know, possessions. After leaving the body,

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00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: police find a pair of eighteen inch zip ties tied

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00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 1: to one of Bobby's wrists, meaning they think someone had

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00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: tried to bind her, but she maybe got away before

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00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: they were able to bind both wrists. In the parking

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00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: lot of the bar that Bobby had been in that night,

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00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: police find her keyring and there's also this like metal

699
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: hook on the key ring that her husband had made

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00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: her as like a defensive tool just in case she

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00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: ever gotten any trouble, and it looks like maybe she

702
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: had pulled it out to like try to use it,

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00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: so they think maybe she had gotten in the in

704
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: the car with you know, whoever picked her up, realized

705
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: something was a miss. He tried to zip tie her.

706
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 1: She took out her tool and ran and was able

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00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: to escape the car. And then they think that she

708
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: ran downhill to get away, and then the killer caught

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00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: up with her, and so she had been shot twice.

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00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: So they think that that's how she was how she

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00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: was stopped when she was running away, and then she

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00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 1: died a short distance away of blood loss. Then law

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00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: enforcement gets word that that very same day, the day

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00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: before that Bobby had gone missing, another young woman had

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Speaker 1: also disappeared from wreckage. And this is a small town

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00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: about a thousand residents, so this is like two women

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00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: in one day. That is very odd. So at around

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00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: four forty five that day, a twenty one year old

719
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: woman named an At Schnee, who is a cocktail waitress,

720
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: had been hitchhiking home after running some errands. But Annette

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00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: didn't make it home. There's no trace of her until

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00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: six months later on July third, when her body is

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00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: found by what is called like a young boy or

724
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 1: a youth which always is terrible, while he was fishing.

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00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: It's an isolated mountain area where she's found in what's

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00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: called Sacramento Creek twenty miles south of Breckenridge. Anette's body

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00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: had been well preserved because of the freezing temperatures, and

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00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 1: the medical examiner is able to determine that and Nett

729
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: died from a gunshot, same as Bobby. She's wearing bow shoes,

730
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: and on one of her feet is an orange booty.

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00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,720
Speaker 1: It's the same as the one found at Bobby's scene,

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00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: so clearly or connected. Police speculate that the killer had

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00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: murdered a Net first, and then hours later picked up

734
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: Bobby and murdered her, and then I discarded the belongings

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00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: between the two scenes, and so the orange sock must

736
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 1: have somehow been mixed up by the killer and accidentally discarded.

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00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: Also in Anet's possession is one of Bobby's husband, Jeff's

738
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: business cards. Oh right, yeah, so of course Jeff immediately

739
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 1: becomes top suspect. Law enforcement questions him about a Net,

740
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: so at first he denies knowing her at all, but

741
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,720
Speaker 1: then he sees a picture of her on the news

742
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 1: later and goes back to law enforcement It's like, yeah,

743
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: I actually do know her. I have met her once.

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00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: He said he had picked up a net once while

745
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: she was hitchhiking and given her his business card of

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00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: his appliance repair shop after she mentioned needing something fixed.

747
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: So like fucking coincidence with a capital seam right. Of course,

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00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: he denies any involvement in her disappearance or in his

749
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: wife's death, takes a polygraph test and passes. Apparently has

750
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: an alibi for the night, but it's sketchy, and of

751
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: course law enforcement consider him the top suspect but aren't

752
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: able to collect enough evidence to charge him. The case

753
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: goes cold and becomes the area's biggest most enduring cold case. Okay,

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Speaker 1: fast forward about seven years retired Denver homicide detective Charlie McCormick.

755
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: He gets burnt out on the Denver homicide scene. It's

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00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 1: too stressful for him, so he finally retires and moves

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00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: to Breckinridge. He hears about the mysterious double murder that

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00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: happened on the same day in his new hometown, and

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00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 1: because he's a homicide detective at heart, his interest is piqued.

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00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: Over time, he becomes more and more involved in the

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00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: case until nineteen eighty nine, a net's family hires him

762
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: as their private investigator on the case. He chases some

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00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: leads throughout the years of serial killers in Montana and

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00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: Idaho other suspects as well. Later, he volunteers for the

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00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: District Attorney's task force that's opened. He continues to work

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00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: on the case almost every day for the next three decades.

767
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: And guess how much he charges for his detective services

768
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: private detective services for Annetts family. Nothing a dollar a year. Oh,

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00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: I know, I know. So he's like, I want to

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00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: do and do this. Let's it's so symbolic.

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00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 2: Well, you know what I like about that is is

772
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: that he clearly wanted to be a homicide detective. Like

773
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: the culture, you know, like was part of why he

774
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: can do it, right, But he can do it by himself,

775
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: independently and separately, and he still wants to be a

776
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: person that's helping clear like solve those crimes and clear

777
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: those cases.

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00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, like as soon as you heard about it in

779
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: his new small hometown, he's not just going to be like,

780
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: well whatever that is by He's Yeah, he wants to.

781
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 2: It's like like anyone else who would hear about that

782
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: and have the interest would be like I need to

783
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 2: know what happened. Yeah, he's somebody who could actually who

784
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: has this the skills in the availability or the means, yeah,

785
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: to get it done totally.

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00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: So Originally the blood on the glove and tissue found

787
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: near Bobby's belongings were thought to be her blood, but

788
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: in the nineties the blood is tested and results show

789
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: that the blood actually belongs to a man. So that

790
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 1: male DNA is tested against Jeff's the husband of Bobby.

791
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: It's not his DNA.

792
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

793
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: And so as a result of this and other evidence,

794
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 1: including several alibi witnesses, he's eventually cleared as a suspect.

795
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: So the fact that his wife gets killed on one

796
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 1: day and another woman gets killed on the same day

797
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: and happens to have his fucking business card in her

798
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: wallet is just a.

799
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: Coincidences, literally and truly just to go on, how fucking

800
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 2: bananas is that? Yeah, that's horrifying.

801
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you imagine, like so many years, everyone in

802
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 1: town thinks she fucking did it well.

803
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 2: And also it's that thing of that these in those cases,

804
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: that it's one thing like that that it even if

805
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,439
Speaker 2: it's not enough evidence to prosecute, it just is enough

806
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: evidence to change everyone's mind about you. Totally totally, and

807
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: it would be hard to explain that where it's just.

808
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it's not out of this realm of possibility

809
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: that everyone would think he's guilty. It totally makes sense. Yeah.

810
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: So unfortunately, the male DNA is not in the criminal database,

811
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 1: so the case goes cold again. In the nineties, police

812
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: look into several different suspects in the case. One is

813
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: a cab driver named Thomas Edward Luther who in February

814
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two in Breckrage had picked up a hitchhiker

815
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: and had raped and assaulted her, and while in jail,

816
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: he allegedly bragged about being responsible for the murders, and

817
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: according to his girlfriend, he didn't come home on the

818
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 1: night of the murders. And then another suspect named Tracy

819
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: Petrocelli murdered his fiance in nineteen eighty one and went

820
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: on a multi state crime spree. And during this crime spree,

821
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: he stayed at the holiday in where a networked. Oh wo.

822
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: So another fucking crazy coincidence. Neither suspect DNA matches the

823
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: evidence from the crime scene, all right, So twenty years later,

824
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, authorities decide to go the friends of

825
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: genealogy route in hopes of finding a DNA match. So

826
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: the company United Data Connect finds twelve thousand people who

827
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: are a possible match to the DNA profile that's on

828
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: the glove and the tissue, and private investigator Charlie McCormick,

829
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 1: who's now eighty years old and still on the case,

830
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: I know, and he's like the photo of him, he's

831
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: like salt to the earth, grandpa. Sure, So he and

832
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 1: his team start going through the twelve thousand people, like,

833
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, genealogy can only get you so far. You

834
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: still have to do the groundwork. Groundwork, footwork, footwork.

835
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: Thank you, I'm but it's the same your feet are

836
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: on the ground, that's right. I have to be pick one.

837
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: So the team reaches out to a people who like

838
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,439
Speaker 1: make sense in those twelve thousand people, and they all

839
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: agree to give DNA and so finally, after a year

840
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 1: of searching, the team finds a direct match to whoever

841
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 1: the killer is. So a relative of the killer, all right,

842
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna pivot real quick for another story that

843
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: made news in the area at the same time as

844
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: the missing women did so. On January sixth, nineteen eighty two,

845
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 1: same day that the women went missing, at just before midnight,

846
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: Sheriff Harold E. Bray is on a United Airlines flight

847
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: to California. As the plane is flying over the Guanella

848
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: Pass in Colorado. Over these mountain ranges thousands of feet above,

849
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: the sheriff sees headlights blinking the Morse code signal for SOS.

850
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,720
Speaker 1: Like he just happens to be looking at the window.

851
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: He happens to be a sheriff, so he knows SOS

852
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: and he fucking sees blinking SOS.

853
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: Oh my, you keep going back.

854
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: That chills like, what what did he do? I know?

855
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: The sheriff tells the flight crew and they radio the FAA,

856
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: the Federal Aviation Administration. The controller for the FAA asks

857
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: a close by plane to investigate. The plane circles the area,

858
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: spots a car that had blinking SOS, flashes his light

859
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: to let the driver know that he's been located, and

860
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: then the FAA contacts Clearcreek County Fire Chief David Montoya.

861
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: He's like, can't fucking believe what he's hearing. A sheriff

862
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 1: in an airplane saw a car on the ground using

863
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 1: headlights to signal SOS. Later, he says, he tells nine News,

864
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: I thought it was the craziest thing I'd ever heard of.

865
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: So Dave drives at the top of the Guenela Pass,

866
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: which has an elevation over eleven thousand feet and is

867
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 1: widely known to be unpassable during the winter. Again it's January.

868
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: Dave finds a truck stuff in a snow drift, and

869
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 1: inside is a thirty year old local mechanic named Alan

870
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: Lee Phillips. Dave says, sure as heck. There he was

871
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: in his little pickup and he saw me and said,

872
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm saved. It's a small town sheriff

873
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: like this. Shit like this doesn't happen, you know. So

874
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: the fire chief, Dave asks Alan what he's doing in

875
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: the Guenela Pass when it's twenty below freezing and has

876
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: been snowing heavily, and he doesn't have chains on his tires,

877
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: like kind of everyone in the area knows not to

878
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: be driving there. He said he'd been drinking at a

879
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: bar with some friends and had decided to drive home,

880
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: which you know, over the pass, and he'd been drinking,

881
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 1: so he thought it was a good idea at the time,

882
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: you know, the eighties, when drinking and driving.

883
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 2: Were an excuse you could tell the sheriff and that

884
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 2: would be okay, right.

885
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: Alan says that as he traveled over the pass, his

886
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: truck got stuck. He tried to dig the truck out,

887
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: didn't work, started walking to a nearby ski area, realized

888
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: it was too cold, so he got back in his truck,

889
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: covered with an emergency blanket, and then thought about what

890
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: to do. He heard the airplane flashed sos and so

891
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: that you know, so he got your flucking saved. He

892
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: would have frozen to death in his truck, yeah, like quickly.

893
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: Before driving Alan home, Dave, the fire chief, notices that

894
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: Alan has a quote sizeable bruise on the side of

895
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: his face. When asked about the bruce, Alan says, while

896
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 1: he was waiting for help, he'd gotten out of his

897
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 1: truck the pee. When he tried to get back in,

898
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 1: he was blinded by the snow and was and slammed

899
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: headfirst into the corner of the truck. The story of

900
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: this crazy rescue of a man who otherwise would have

901
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: frozen to death becomes huge news well almost forty years later,

902
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 1: forty years from the day that the two women had

903
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: been murdered and this guy had been found on the pass,

904
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 1: the DNA from the glove and tissue along turns out

905
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: to none other than that man who had been disposing

906
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: of a net's body after he had gone over the pass.

907
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: So like these two fucking separate stories just in twenty

908
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: eighteen turned out to be related. Holy shit. Yeah, So,

909
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: alanly Phillips is his name. He's matched to the DNA

910
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: via a discarded fast food rapper that had traces of

911
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: his saliva on You know, it still took a while

912
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: for them to track him down and to match the DNA.

913
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: It isn't until his mugshot is shown on local television

914
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: news that the now retired fire chief Dave our friend

915
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: Dave Montoya recognizes him as the guy who forty almost

916
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 1: forty years ago he had saved from the mountain pass.

917
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: So they hadn't even put it together yet, thought it

918
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 1: was the same dude, and that's exactly he had been

919
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: fucking disposing of a net's body. Oh my god, I know, chilling, right,

920
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: Dave says, quote, we ended up picking up the guy

921
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 1: straight out of hell. So, as it turns out, Alan

922
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: hadn't been driving home from the bar that night. He

923
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: was heading home after killing Bobby and Annette. Alan is

924
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: now seventy years old and the father of three, and

925
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: since nineteen eighty two, he had been still living in

926
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 1: the Breckenridge area. On February twenty fourth, twenty twenty one,

927
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 1: police arrest Allan without incident at a traffic stop in

928
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: Clear Creek County. He's charged with kidnapping, first degree assault,

929
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: and first degree murder of both Annette Schnee and Bobby

930
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: Joe Oberholtzer. Today, Monday the thirteenth, was his preliminary hearing.

931
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: Oh whoa yeah, And as of this recording, we don't

932
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 1: have much info about him. I did the best I

933
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: could about who he is and what he did. He

934
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: might be connected to more murders, so I'll keep everyone posted.

935
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 2: We also, if he's on his way to court, might

936
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 2: be found innocent. Oh, right, alleged important to mention right,

937
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:57,280
Speaker 2: it's all alleged.

938
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: It's all alleged. Right. Bobby's husband, Jeff, who at one

939
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: time was a suspect, released a statement saying that he

940
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 1: praised the arrest. Quote, well, finally, after all these decades,

941
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: bring closure in peace to this hideous nightmare. After Philip's arrest,

942
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: Annette's mother, Eileen, who is now eighty eight years old,

943
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: says her family has endured quote thirty nine years of hell.

944
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: She said, quote it's been a rough forty years. I

945
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: thought maybe i'd be gone before I had closure in

946
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: this case. And then she said, I'm ready to go

947
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: when it's my time now. And that is the story

948
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: of Annette Schnee and Bobby Joe Oberholtzer. I mean, holy shit, Yeah.

949
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 2: That is the craziest, most roundabout. First of all, I

950
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 2: can't believe I've never heard.

951
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: That, because it just happened. They were just connected as

952
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: two cold cases you hadn't heard about. It was one

953
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: guy driving over a fucking mountain pass you hadn't heard about.

954
00:55:58,440 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: And then it turns out they' connected.

955
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the mountain past story feels like the

956
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 2: kind of weird news story that you would read separately

957
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: in any way. Yeah, the idea that they're all the

958
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: same storyline in out of chronological order, right, is mind blowing.

959
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: And it's not until this guy sees him on the

960
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 1: news that he puts it all together. Fucking forty years later,

961
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: I can't recognize someone I met last weekend.

962
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 2: But it must have been well, because it was weird

963
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 2: enough as it was, but it must have been.

964
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 1: Very I mean it made the news. Yeah, yeah, the

965
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: event itself.

966
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 2: But I'm saying I wonder if that fire chief just

967
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 2: had some kind of a vibe of like, oh this

968
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 2: is interesting and weird and off yeah and whatever. But

969
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 2: he's also not a cop, so he's just like, all right,

970
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 2: let's just get you out of here. Yeah, that's that

971
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 2: part isn't really.

972
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: Now suspicious except for the bruise, But that does make

973
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: sense of how he would get it.

974
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 2: Right, sure, well absolutely, and that as much as the

975
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 2: business card in Rye Dead Woman's Possessions, you know, you

976
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 2: can write that off or you would have to. Anyonere

977
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 2: gonna have a bruise for any reason, totally one you

978
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,479
Speaker 2: don't even remember, like yeah, wow, that's that's a mind

979
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 2: that's mind blowing.

980
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,439
Speaker 1: So if anything comes up, all all update everyone, Oh good,

981
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 1: all right, that's it. We did our job, We absolutely did,

982
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: and you guys did yours. Thank you so much for listening.

983
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: We appreciate all of you. Send us your hometowns, send

984
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: us like, you know, high fives and helloes. Whatever you want.

985
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: Sure get in there and you know, stay sexy and

986
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis Do you want a Cookie?

987
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production.

988
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

989
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:53,919
Speaker 2: Our editor is Aristotle oce Vedo.

990
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

991
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 2: Our researchers are Mayaron McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

992
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: Email your hometown on to My Favorite Murder at gmail

993
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: dot com.

994
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 2: Follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder.

995
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

996
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

997
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 2: And now you can watch us on exactly Right's YouTube page.

998
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 2: While you're there, please like and subscribe.

999
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: Goodbyeye