1 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: Here we Go Again Again. Hey, I'm cal Penn. Welcome 2 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: to my new show, Here we Go Again. 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 2: Here We Go. 4 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: So you may know me as an actor from Harold 5 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: and Kumar House or Designated Survivor. I'm also a former 6 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: White House staffer, a NASCAR enthusiast, an eager karaoke participant, 7 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: and I guess, as of like five seconds ago, a 8 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: podcast host. 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: How am I doing so far? 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: I'm hosting this podcast because there's one particular question that 11 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: I find myself asking a lot these days. Why does 12 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: the same shit keep happening? War, labor strikes, getting ghosted 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: by a hookup. No one wants to be stuck in 14 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: a vicious cycle of patterns repeating. So every week we're 15 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: going to take a topic from the present, see how 16 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: it played out in the past, and try to figure 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: out what it means for our future. Each episode, I'll 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: chat with an expert who can help me answer a 19 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: different burning question, like why is my plane always delayed? 20 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: Are we headed towards another economic crash? Is this rash 21 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: what I think it is? Oh? Wait, ignore that last one. 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: We're asking all the right questions to all the right 23 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: people to make you feel at least like nine percent 24 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: better about well everything except maybe the rashow. So now 25 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: that I got my little introduction out of the way, 26 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure how I wanted to kick off the 27 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: first episode, but then I kept looking down at my tattoos. 28 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: Some people have tattoos of bald eagles, A lot of 29 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: people have tattoos of x's. Most of my tattoos have 30 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: something to do with astronomy. That's what you see if 31 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: you look at my sleeve, and of that, I'd say 32 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: at least half has to do with the NASA Voyager 33 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: Golden Record. If you don't know what the Golden Record is, 34 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: it's a piece of this spacecraft called the Voyager, launched 35 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen seventies, and the idea there was 36 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: that if it's ever found by an intelligent civilization, and 37 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: if they can ever decode this record, they would see 38 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: only the best of human civilization, biology, science, music, arts, DNA. 39 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: To me, space has always been about exploring the unknown, 40 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 1: about possibility, and as the guy with the Voyager tattoo, 41 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 1: I clearly care a lot about the new space race 42 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: that's happening right now. From the Cold War to today, 43 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: space has really been about flexing power the United States 44 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: versus the Soviet Union, for example back in the day, 45 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: or more recently, the United States versus China. But now 46 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: there's also a new player, private corporations enter the billionaires. 47 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: Elon Musk is willing to spend fifteen and a half 48 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: billion dollars to be the first to colonize Mars. Jeff 49 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: Bezos is funding Blue Origin to keep up. And in 50 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: the middle of all of this is still NASA with 51 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: a shrinking budget. So here's my question, why do we 52 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: keep turning space into a race? And what does that 53 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: say about the future of space exploration and about humanity? 54 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: This is here we Go again, a show where we 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: take today's trends and headlines and then ask why does 56 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: history keep repeating itself. I'm cal Penn to explore the past, present, 57 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: and future of the space race. I knew only one 58 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: guy would do. He's super sciency, a spokesperson, an adventurer, 59 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: a teacher, and the only adult man I trust to 60 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: wear a bow tie. Unlike me, He's got a star 61 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, the singular William Sandford 62 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: n I, better known as my friend Bill Nye, the 63 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: science Guy. Welcome Bill it's so good to be here. 64 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for doing this. Man. I think that most of 65 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: us have a very rudimentary understanding of space, and I 66 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: will I will preface this by saying, I think I've 67 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: shown you my astronomy tattoos, most of which are based 68 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: on the Voyager Golden Record, well pulse ar map and 69 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: things like that, but that is still you know, for 70 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: an actor, that's still a rudimentary like, well. 71 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: You're a citizen of Earth, cal thank you. 72 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: I like to put it that way. 73 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's what we're going for here. 74 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: So, like, what is the history of the original space race? 75 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: In like a minute, And I'm not asking for the 76 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: version of like if you and Neil deGrasse Tyson were 77 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: in a room together, which I've seen and it's brilliant, 78 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: but like, what's the second grade version of that? 79 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 2: The second grade version is the Soviet Union was created 80 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: with this idea that they would be that its system 81 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: would be better than the West. And along with that, 82 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: we're going to prove that we're better than the West. 83 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: We're going to go into space, the ultimate high ground. 84 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 2: So they built sputneck spacecraft and I was a little 85 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: little kid nineteen fifty seven and the grown ups are 86 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: all very very concerned about this. And so then the 87 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: US answered the threat or the historic achievement of Sputnik 88 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: by creating NASA, the National Annasa Space Administration, a civilian 89 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 2: space agency that was involved in flying around in space, 90 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: which you might think was more of a military thing, 91 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: but this became and everybody talks about this turning point 92 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: with John Kennedy, whatever else you might think about him, 93 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: presented this challenge of putting somebody on the moon before 94 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy, so that became a way to fight the 95 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: Cold War, was put somebody on the moon, and the 96 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: US did, and not too long in historic terms, after that, 97 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union went out of business, so that was 98 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: good for us. 99 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: During Spotnik, the old folks were kind of freaking out. 100 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: And I'm curious at that point was there an understanding 101 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: or a keen interest in the exploration part of this 102 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: or was there a fear about the militarization part. 103 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: So there was both. So the guys at NASA, and 104 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: they were mostly men, were arguing that we needed to 105 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: understand the cosmos. We needed to understand what cosmic rays are, 106 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: We need to understand the processes that create sunlight and stars, 107 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 2: and we need to know more about what I like 108 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: to call our place in space. But the reason it 109 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: was done was the Cold War. But with that these 110 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 2: extraordinary discoveries were made, and a couple of remarkable things. 111 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty eight, Bill Anders, this astronaut, took a 112 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: picture of the Earth that came to be called Earth Rise, 113 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: with the moon and the foreground, and this is where 114 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: you see the Earth against the icy blackness of space. 115 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: When the aperture of the camera was set to capture 116 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: the planet Earth, the stars behind Earth were not bright 117 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: enough to show up. So it's stark. There's the Earth, 118 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: this planet. And then the thing that struck my grandparents 119 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 2: was the clouds. You see Earth from space, and you 120 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: see all these clouds. When you think of Earth before that, 121 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: you'd think of it as a classroom globe, no clouds, 122 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: and just political boundaries. And the ocean is perfectly uniform 123 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: color all around the world, and so on. And so 124 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: this changed history, and it was not in my opinion, 125 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: and it keep in mind everybody, my opinion is correct. 126 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 2: And so a few years later the Soviet Union was 127 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: doing these extraordinary things, and I sent these missions to 128 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: Mars they sent missions to Venus all these things, and 129 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: along that line, the US was going to keep up, 130 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: and the US did, and this led to this extraordinary 131 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: event events of the launching of the Voyager spacecraft. And 132 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: these were are two spacecraft that did this so called 133 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: Grand tour of the Solar System because of the alignment 134 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 2: or the orientation or the places and spaces of the planets. 135 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,719 Speaker 2: And the old hilarious joke is the same arrangement of 136 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 2: planets happened during the Atoms administration in eighteen twenty, but 137 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: they didn't do anything about it. They didn't send any 138 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: spacecraft in eighteen twenty. What were the thinking and so anyway, 139 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: I claim this changed the course of history, and this 140 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: led to the Golden Record, which is on your tattoo. 141 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: Can you tell us more about the Golden Record? Like 142 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: I obviously like to think I'm an expert enough that 143 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: I tattooed on my body. But my real understanding is 144 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: that what it's a group of people, which I think 145 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: involved Carl Sagan they made this recording of positive Earth 146 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: stuff that we sent up on the Voyager missions. Is 147 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: that essentially it? 148 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: Yes, So everybody, let's just talk some more about me. 149 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 2: I happened to be in class with Carl Sagan, famous astronomer. 150 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: I happened to be in class. I was a senior 151 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: in mechanical engineering school. I took astronomy one oh two 152 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: for kicks, just I took a freshman level course because 153 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: this guy had become so famous, this Carl Sagan, who's 154 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. This is before 155 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: Jimmy Fallon, before Jay Leno. Yeah, and Carl Sagan said, 156 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: we're to put this record, this phonograph record. And for 157 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 2: the young people listening, I know you're all into vinyl again, 158 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 2: right on, way to go, turn it up loud, Okay, 159 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 2: while you're doing all that. The idea was to send 160 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: a phonograph record to Phonograph Records into deep space, and 161 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 2: so then you're gonna put sounds on the phonograph record, 162 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: sounds of this extraordinary world Earth. And Carl Sagan said, 163 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: don't worry, young people were going to put a rock 164 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: and roll song on the record, and he said it's 165 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: going to be rollover Beethoven by Chuck Berry. And I 166 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: certainly voiced a concern. But this next part may be 167 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 2: a so called constructed memory. I claim I stood up. 168 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: This is a part of the semester. You know, there 169 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: are people who are so confident in college that they 170 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: don't go to class. They just take the tests and 171 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 2: the final, and they write the paper and they just 172 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: read the tech don't go to class. I was not 173 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,119 Speaker 2: among those people because I felt that Sagan was so entertaining, 174 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: he was such an amazing speaker. So I claim I 175 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: stood up and I said, Professor Sagan, it's not roll 176 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 2: over Beethoven. The song you want is Johnny be Good 177 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 2: by Chuck Berry. And so I was not the only 178 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 2: guy expressing this sentiment, but I was particularly vocal because 179 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: I'm a particular fan of Chuck Berry, and so Chuck 180 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: Berry's on the record. I take full credit. 181 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: You're saying that you helped decide what was on the 182 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: Golden Record. How did I not know this? 183 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: It's all me, everybody, and it's just you guys. Understand 184 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 2: the dumb luctivity of my life that I happened to 185 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: be in this class. First of all, that I got 186 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: into this extraordinary university, Cornell, that I got into there 187 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 2: was I'm sure some mistake in the admissions department, but 188 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: I happened to be there at this moment in history 189 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: of space exploration that changed my life. And so I'm 190 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 2: very thankful, and I tell everybody those two spacecraft are 191 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 2: still flying because they're powered by plutonium. It is extraordinary. 192 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: And this is what Carl Sagan used talk about all 193 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 2: the time. Humans in so many ways are not worthy 194 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: of respect, like we're just mean spirited, crummy creatures. But 195 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: in other ways we can do these extraordinary things and 196 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: understand our place in space and try to know where 197 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: we came from, and to ponder whether or not we're 198 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 2: alone in the cosmos. These are just extraordinary questions. And 199 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: along with that, for Carl Sagan and Andrew and his wife 200 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: then and the people that he worked with, they just 201 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 2: wanted everybody to appreciate the beauty that humans appreciate. And 202 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: that's what's on the record, the way. 203 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: That you're described. I mean everyone from the astronaut who 204 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: took that photograph of Earth from the moon to the 205 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: fact that you put Chuck Berry on the Golden Record. 206 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: All of the sixties and seventies and eighties, the reputation 207 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: that NASA had was almost this glamorous and certainly now 208 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: looking back, very fucking cool. Cool group of people who seem, 209 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: especially in retrospect given the world we live in now, 210 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: very hopeful, very aspirational, and I think we think a 211 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: lot about that, but also think about the competition that 212 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: has come to dominate space that then kind of ignores 213 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: the cooperation. What I'm getting at here is at what 214 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: point did the International Space Station come into this conversation? 215 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about how it started 216 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: and then which countries cooperated with it? Did it come 217 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: out of this same idea of hey, we can do 218 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: amazing things together. Let's put music and send out there. 219 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: Well, another thing along this line, talking about Carl Sagan 220 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: again this mythic astronomer, I say mythic. He's a real person, 221 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: but he's so influential, Like for example, you mentioned earlier 222 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: before we started, you mentioned Neil deGrasse Tyson. As you know, 223 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: Steve Martin said, personal friend of mine and me. We 224 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: probably would not be doing what we're doing without the 225 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: creation of NASA and without Carl Sagan and his influence. 226 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 2: So along this line, Carl Sagan started the planetary sieting 227 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: because he and his colleagues felt that public interest in 228 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: space was very high, but government support of it was 229 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: not especially high that would never happen again. That's the 230 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: same thing's going on now. And they were very concerned 231 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: about nuclear war, and they wanted very much to engage 232 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union, and so there was this hand shaken space. 233 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: Now I'm doing this for memory. I should look this up. 234 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,479 Speaker 2: I should have it at my brain for tips LEONEV 235 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: and Allen. That's not quite right. 236 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: I got it. It's a Leonov and Stafford astronaut Thomas 237 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: Stafford and Russian cosmonaut Aleck Say Leonov. 238 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 2: Right, they shook hands in space, an astronaut and a cosmonaut, 239 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: and this was going to be okay, cold war over 240 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: shirk hands in space, Let's go. And that led to 241 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: the International Space Station. And for those of you who remember, 242 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: for many years the only way to get up and 243 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: down to the International Space Station was on a Russian 244 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: rocket because the Russian rockets were just big, heavy and reliable, 245 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: and they so are. But the Space Shuttle was created 246 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: to get people up and down to the space station. 247 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: The user words shuttle like you're going to go, you know, 248 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: on a bus every day. But it turned out to 249 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: be fantastically expensive. But that dream or that vision of 250 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: using space exploration, to establish international relations, to prevent an 251 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: international conflict. 252 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: Is still with us. 253 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: You talk to any US astronaut, he or she speaks Russian, 254 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: you talk to any cosmonaut, he or she speaks English 255 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: because they train together. They still cooperate. With all the 256 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: other stuff that's going on, sabotaging underwater natural gas lines, 257 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: conflict in Ukraine, all the other sort of Cold war 258 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 2: knock on stuff that's going on, there's still international cooperation 259 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: in space. It's remarkable. 260 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: Welcome back to here we go again with me Calpen, 261 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: your host and our guest, the wonderful Bill n I. Okay, Bill, so, 262 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: I love how you ended that last segment with the 263 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: reality that that no matter what conflicts are happening in 264 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: the world, we're still cooperating in the space station. But okay, 265 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: what about the space racing Now, I'm curious what's the 266 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: same in what's changed? And especially that original space race 267 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: Did it truly ever end? Does it continue in a 268 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: version of its original form? Today? 269 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 2: It doesn't continue in the original form in that it's 270 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 2: not the US versus the Soviets or Russians anymore. Now 271 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: people are just as far as space racing, people are 272 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 2: just beginning to acknowledge the importance of China, and the 273 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: Chinese National Space Agency is doing extraordinary things, and they're 274 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: doing them for the same reason everybody else did. First 275 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 2: of all, it's national pride. You get Taykonts up there 276 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: in their own space station doing their own cool experiments. 277 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: They want to go to the south pole of the 278 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: Moon because there is nominally an engineering reason to go there. 279 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: That is to say, people suspect strongly there's enough ice 280 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: in the regolith. That's a fabulous word, that the rocky 281 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: surface of the Moon that you could use solar panels 282 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 2: to make electricity, turn the water into hydrogen and oxygen gas, 283 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: and then liquid hydrogen and oxygen recombine them and have 284 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 2: a rocket from the Moon run by rocket fuel made 285 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: of moon stuff. So I know it was okay, it's 286 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: a lot. But the other reason to go to the 287 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: Moon is national pride and plant the flag and so on. 288 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 2: But then that's this international space race that's just getting 289 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: acknowledged here in the US circles since that Congressman Wolf 290 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 2: retired that you don't have the same but he just 291 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: was bringing up all the time. 292 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: So Congressman Wolf, for those who don't know was the 293 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: author of the Wolf Amendment, which prevented and prevents still 294 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: the US from cooperating with China in space exploration. 295 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: But then the other space race is these billionaires rather 296 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: who are going at it with their own companies. And 297 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: so they're doing it for a couple of reasons. First 298 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: of all, their own pride and space intrigues. Everybody, everybody, 299 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: I think, goes through a period of wanting to be 300 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 2: an astronaut and fly in space. And we all embrace 301 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,239 Speaker 2: science fiction where you go to other worlds and do 302 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 2: these extraordinary things and compare the other world to our 303 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: world and wonder if we're alone in the universe. That's 304 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: all in there, and then there's real money to be made. 305 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: A lot of people I speak with are not aware 306 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: of the extraordinary amount of money that's spent in space. Wait, 307 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 2: all the money that's spent in space is really spent 308 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: on Earth. Wait a second. Yeah. So the SpaceX, for example, 309 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 2: is huge business with the Air Force, Space Force, NASA 310 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: along with its own starlink thing. Man. They launch rockets 311 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 2: a couple three times a week, these very reliable Falcon 312 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 2: nine rockets, and they do it for business to dominate 313 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 2: global communications in lower author and the technology has got 314 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 2: to the point where you can do that. You know, 315 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 2: it's like a cell phone signal. You know, when you 316 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 2: drive around the cell phone, you can go from one 317 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: cell to another and the system hands it from one 318 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: hands your phone call from one cell to another cell seamlessly. 319 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 2: Now these you know, these spacecraft are going in the 320 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: English units. It's over seventeen thousand miles an hour and 321 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: they're handing the communications signal from one to another. It's 322 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 2: really amazing. 323 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: The number of satellites that allow us to do what 324 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: we do was kind of put into scope. I did 325 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: a USO tour to the Space Force space in Greenland 326 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: at Tuley a couple of years ago. 327 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 2: What time of year were you know. 328 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: I mean it didn't matter, it was greatly. 329 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 2: You'd have to kill me, it was. 330 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: It was so well, it was winter because it was cold, 331 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,479 Speaker 1: and it was dark. It was dark the whole time 332 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: we were there. And I mean two things that I 333 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: walked away with the thing on my list. You're never 334 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: allowed to have your own schedule when you go on 335 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: these USO tours, nor should you. I guess you're giving 336 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: your time. But I really wanted to see the Greenland Telescope, 337 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: which is part of the event Horizon Telescope, and so 338 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: I like DMD the folks who were working on it directly. 339 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: I found out who they were, followed them on Instagram. 340 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: They were gracious and excited that I was coming, and so, as. 341 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 2: Carl Sagan said all the time, when you're in love, 342 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 2: you want to tell the world. They wanted to show 343 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: you their equipment, right, it was very cool. 344 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: They wanted to show me the equipment, and they were 345 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: from all over the world. I mean, these these these 346 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: incredible scientists. But the second thing that I saw, I 347 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: did you know, worked in government years ago. No longer 348 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: have a clearance, so I couldn't see everything. But it 349 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: seemed like one of the big purposes of Space Force, 350 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: especially at that base, was to track satellites all over 351 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: the world and make sure that they don't crash into. 352 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: Each other, a huge problem. 353 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: And I was like, this is crazy there. And of course, 354 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: I mean when you think about it, exactly what you said, 355 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: the fact that you can you know, you can listen 356 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,239 Speaker 1: to everything no matter where you're in the world. I mean, 357 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: how do we think on my phone telling me which 358 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: subway line to take and knowing where I am and 359 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: whether I'm changing trains like all of that is because 360 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: of all of this. You've also spent some time at 361 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: a Space Force space Colorado, right last year? 362 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, went to Butler. 363 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so is that the same. Are these big concerns. 364 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: That is why space Force exists. 365 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 2: It is the concerness of concerns, and so you hear 366 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: it express different nouns. But Kissler, a guy named Kissler, 367 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 2: did this analysis the Kissler effect, the Kissler syndrome, the 368 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: Kissler catastrophe, where he pointed out, when you start running 369 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 2: the spacecraft into each other, you'll create orbital debris on 370 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: a global scale that you cannot clean up. This is 371 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: trying to catch a bullet with a bullet, as the 372 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: saying goes, and you just can't. I mean, it almost 373 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 2: certainly cannot. And every year at science fairs people come 374 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: up with the giant nets and but it's just a 375 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 2: huge concern. And so were you around when people's Republic 376 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: of China Army shot down one of their own satellites. 377 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: This was literally my next question for you. I was 378 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: around for it, and I remember it being shocking, at 379 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: least in some of the astronomy blogs. That I read. 380 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: And then so just this danger of can it pierce 381 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: the space station? Will it affect other satellites? What was 382 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: that about? 383 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 2: Well, they were showing off, is my understanding. Now we 384 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 2: could do this, We could shoot down satellites. We could 385 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 2: shoot down your satellite. So you better have a treaty 386 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 2: with us. You better not presume we're not a spacefaring 387 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: nation with extraordinary technical capability. Okay. So in response to that, 388 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: you may remember the US shot down its own satellite, 389 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 2: this U CARS, which was an acronym upper atmospheric something 390 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: something research system just take over like the word even 391 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 2: the word NASA is a word now it's not an 392 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: acronym for many people, National aeron otion, space and industriction. 393 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,719 Speaker 1: So the Chinese shot down a satellite kind of as 394 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: a display of power, or what happened. 395 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: Next along this line, then the US shot down its 396 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: own satellite to show this is how you do it. 397 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: You don't make a mess. You shoot it down, you know, carefully. 398 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: And I just remember this that it was shot down 399 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: from a missile on a ship at sea, a US 400 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 2: ship at sea, and they couldn't shoot it down sort 401 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 2: of same day because the ocean was too rough. They didn't. 402 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 2: They didn't want the initial trajectory of the missile to 403 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: be messed up by the motion of the ship. And 404 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: I just remember thinking, Okay, the Cold War will be 405 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: once the Hot War starts, so it'll be really good 406 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: as long as the ocean has come. Like, this is 407 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 2: serious business. When you start weaponizing outer space, things can 408 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 2: potentially go really wrong. 409 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: I mean, so then militarization is still it sounds like 410 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: a major aim. You're basically describing war games in space 411 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: right now. 412 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 2: Well, sort, but what is your what's the name of 413 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 2: the podcast? 414 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: Here we go again. 415 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 2: Yes, So there was an anti Ballistic Missile treaty right 416 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 2: long about nineteen sixty eight, because people realize this is 417 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 2: not winnable. Man, if we start throwing weapons this expression 418 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 2: so are called mutually assured destruction MAD. You can't do this. 419 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: If everybody's in on it, then we can take a meeting. 420 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: If you pretend that it's a winnable situation, then you're 421 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 2: just going to keep escalating. And this was something that 422 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 2: Carl Sagan and the guys in the nineteen seventies and 423 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 2: eighties talked about all the time. Okay, let's have a treaty. 424 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: Ge wis Man. And then if we start blowing up 425 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 2: or knocking apart satellites in space. I worked at a 426 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: company that was involved in the KKV, the Kinetic killed vehicle. 427 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 2: You just run a satellite into another satellite and have 428 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: it shatter. Yeah, it's not winnable. Let's have a treaty. 429 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: And yet it's come all the way back around. People 430 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: are talking about warfare and space weapon putting weapons in 431 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: space the ultimate high ground, and man, it would be 432 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,239 Speaker 2: much better if everybody got along. It's just it is 433 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 2: not a winnable thing. And this thing in Ukraine is 434 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 2: what I like to call the extended dance mix of 435 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: World War Two. It's the same bunch of people fighting 436 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 2: over the same land, and it's a land war in Europe, 437 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: just like we had in my parents' day, and everybody 438 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 2: got together and resolved that. But right now it's not 439 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: clear that everybody's getting together to resolve it this time, so. 440 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: Things are repeating themselves. The one is it fair to 441 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: say the one big difference is the role of billionaires 442 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: in the private space sector that didn't exist in the eighties. 443 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 2: Yes, you're right, But with that said, you know it's 444 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: a government investment in weapons that you know, the Space 445 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 2: Force goes back and forth all the time about which 446 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 2: rocket company to use and who to sign contracts with 447 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 2: and all that stuff. But that aside Calah. The reason 448 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 2: we love space exploration is it brings out the best 449 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: in us. Yes, we solve problems that have never been 450 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 2: solved before. But on the way, people realized the extraordinary 451 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: nature of planet Earth, that we live on this extraordinary 452 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 2: world that is but one world in this literally unimaginable 453 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 2: vastness of creation. Nobody can really imagine how big the 454 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: universe is, how big, how many galaxies there are, and 455 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: how many planets there must be. And this leads us 456 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 2: to the two deep questions, where did we come from? 457 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: And are we alone in the universe? And I say 458 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: all the time, if you meet somebody who says they've 459 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 2: never wondered, that they are lying to your face. 460 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: You know, obviously all of us have thought about the 461 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: philosophical part the exploration, the part about whether you know 462 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: how it is possible that we're here, and the idea 463 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: that you can't wrap your head around the infinite nature 464 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: of all of these galaxies. 465 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 2: So there's three things that keep me in this game. 466 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: First of all I want to explore. I claim that 467 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: our ancestors who did not have the drive to explore 468 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: are not our ancestors, but guys. If you had a 469 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 2: tribe where the men and women did not want to 470 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 2: go over the hill to see what's on the other side, 471 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: they got out competed by the people who did want 472 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: to go over the hill and see what's on the 473 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: other side, the other valley, the other resources, and what 474 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: have you. So I claim that's deep within us. Then 475 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: the other thing is I want to find evidence of 476 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 2: life on another world. I want that to happen while 477 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 2: I'm alive. So the places to look are Mars, and 478 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 2: this is I'm talking about evidence of life. So it'd 479 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: probably be the equivalent of fossil bacteria locked in the 480 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 2: mud rocks of an ancient river basin. On Mars, strangers 481 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 2: still though near the equator of Mars. Maybe there's some 482 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: really salty slush under the sand, and there are Martian microbes, 483 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: Mars crobes still doing their thing, like alive things that 484 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,959 Speaker 2: we could find with spacecraft. I mean, it's extraordinary. Then 485 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 2: the other place right now is Europa, the moon of Jupiter. 486 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: There's twice as much ocean water as Earth has. If 487 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 2: you have ocean water for four and a half billion years, 488 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: is there something alive on Europos It's amazing a question. 489 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 2: Then the other thing, the third thing is do not 490 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: want to get hit with an asteroid. It's a real thing. 491 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: It's not just science fiction. In twenty twenty nine, nobody's 492 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 2: talking about it much yet, but oh we will be 493 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: a office a name for an Egyptian god of chaos 494 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: and anxiety. It's going to come not closer to the Moon, 495 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 2: it's going to come closer than the geosynchronous satellites on Friday, 496 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 2: the thirteenth of April twenty twenty nine. People are going 497 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 2: to be talking about it. And so we want it 498 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 2: planetary society. We want it to be a dress rehearsal 499 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: for international cooperation on deflecting an asteroid or so called 500 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 2: mitigating the effects of an asteroid. If you knew exactly 501 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 2: or pretty much where it was going to land, you 502 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: could get everybody out of the way. But if it's 503 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 2: going to land in Paris, like that would be bad. 504 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 2: Like you get everybody out of the way, but you 505 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 2: still crushed a major international city. 506 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: How far out would we know where it's going to 507 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: land if it is going to land. 508 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: Oh, this is the dark art, my friends. No, so 509 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 2: thirty years would be really good. And right now I 510 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: don't know how serious these people are, but right now 511 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: there's an effort to cut NASA's funding overall by twenty 512 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 2: five percent, half or more of the science budget so 513 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: called Science Mission Directorate SMD within NASA. So that is 514 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 2: not in anybody's best interest. That is shortsighted and not 515 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: being able to find asteroids using the NEO Survey or 516 00:31:53,400 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: neuarth Object Survey Mission and other ground based telescope coordinated systems, 517 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: is you don't want to stop doing that? 518 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: Well, that was sort of the big question I had 519 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: for you, obviously as a Planetary Society member, and you 520 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: should all join the advocacy that is around funding for 521 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: NASA and funding for STEM and all things astronomy and 522 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: exploration related. They were always impressive to me, even as 523 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: a kid. I went to space camp when I was 524 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: in like sixth grade, and I was that nerd, right, 525 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: and you get this sense of like, oh, there are 526 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: all of these different you know, when NASA was set up, 527 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: it was purposely set up in different places around the 528 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: country so that funding would be sustained. 529 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 2: Right, it was done on purpose. Yeah, in NASA center 530 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: spread all over the country. It is inherently inefficient. But 531 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 2: that's not a bad thing in this case. 532 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: For folks who don't know. That's because Congress ideally sets 533 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: and decides and eliminates funding according to what they think 534 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: their priority should be. And so distributing NASA facilities around 535 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: the country sures that there are going to be jobs 536 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: in particular communities. And there are four votes to fund 537 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: this stuff, right. 538 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 2: And there's almost not a single county in the United 539 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 2: States that does not have a connection to NASA. Oh well, yeah, 540 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 2: the one that doesn't have too many is Nebraska, but 541 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 2: it has a few, and a big advocate for NASA's 542 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: Don Bacon from Nebraska. He's a good guy. 543 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: You just mentioned that people want to cut the NASA budget, 544 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: cut the funding budget a what percentage of the larger 545 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: federal budget? Is it? By the way, big pet peeve 546 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: of mine? So I can't even imagine how big of 547 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: a pet peeve this is of yours, This idea that like, 548 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: why are we wasting money on space when we have 549 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: all these challenges on Earth? Can you walk us through 550 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: the reality of what that. 551 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 2: Is that's ancient. That's an ancient concern. First of all, 552 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 2: you can't stop exporing space. We rely on space for all, 553 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: for this phone call or this podcast. We could not 554 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: do without space assets. The weather you rely on, and 555 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 2: military situational awareness is all about space. We hived off 556 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 2: part of the Air Force into the Space Force because 557 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: the space concerns became so significant, and so you can't 558 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 2: not explore space. And then the other thing is everybody 559 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: wants to know what's going on on Mars. And then 560 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 2: this perception that every kid, everybody in the world has 561 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 2: now that Earth is this planet that is like Mars, 562 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 2: that's like Venus, that's like Saturn, only different and special 563 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 2: and remarkable, and how did we all get here? And 564 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 2: we've got to be stewards of it and all that 565 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: that is a result of space exploration. And if we 566 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 2: were to find evidence of life on another world or 567 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 2: stranger still, something alive on another world, it would change 568 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 2: the course of history. Everybody everywhere would feel different, diferently 569 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 2: about being a living thing. Everybody would just feel differently 570 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 2: about being alive. Not saying we'd all start driving on 571 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 2: the left in or something, but it would change history, 572 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 2: and we do it for an extraordinary small fraction of 573 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 2: the federal budget. You know, it's it's barely zero point 574 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 2: eight percent of the federal budget, and then the planetary 575 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 2: division within NASA is nine percent of that. 576 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: Well, that's min a skill. 577 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 2: It's just very very small fraction of the of our 578 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 2: intellect and treasure. And you ask people on the street 579 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 2: how much how big is the NASA budget, They'll say 580 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 2: ten percent. 581 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: They're off by effect iated. 582 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because it is such an important part of 583 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 2: what I like to call and Casey Dryer art policy 584 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: guy who likes to call the American story, is such 585 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 2: an important part of the American story. And everybody understand 586 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,760 Speaker 2: South Africa has a space program, Vietnam has a space 587 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 2: for Mexico is a space for Australia has a space program. 588 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 2: Because everybody realizes the value of exploring space to your 589 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 2: overall national treasure. 590 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: So that's us now, a sky full of satellites, hearts 591 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: full of hope, and a space program in desperate need 592 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: of more funding. What's next is our future mutually assured 593 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: destruction or mutually assured cooperation. We'll be back to the 594 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: future of the space race. Sorry too After this when 595 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: we're talking about exploring Mars, whether it's to find hopefully 596 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: life there or elsewhere, is that something that NASA ideally 597 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: is investing in or is it some of these private companies. 598 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: Cause I feel like there's so much conversation now about 599 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: rare mens and resources we can harvest from these places. 600 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: Are they the same conversation or the different conversation. 601 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 2: Well, if you're asking me, and I got the impression 602 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 2: you were, I was, I like to remind people there's 603 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 2: a lot of platinum on Earth. When you say let's 604 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 2: get an asteroid made of essentially stainless steel and bring 605 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 2: it back somewhere near Earth where we could access it, 606 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 2: that is just it's just a very very difficult and 607 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 2: expensive proposition. More power to you, guys, But I'm not 608 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 2: writ in a check. It's just a very very difficult problem. 609 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 2: And what we advocate for and what I strongly believe 610 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 2: in based on my life experience, is NASA does things 611 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 2: that nobody else can do. There is no business case 612 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 2: for looking for life on Mars unless you know how 613 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 2: to say, oh, it's going to be great to sell 614 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 2: theater tickets. Well maybe, but this expiation is done for 615 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 2: exporation's sake to know more about outer space than to 616 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 2: know more about ourselves. The more you travel, the more 617 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 2: you know about your home. This is the old saying 618 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 2: what's absolutely true about space exploration. Also, you know, people 619 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 2: thought Mars had canals on it and there were Martians 620 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 2: running around doing Martian stuff. It turns out it's not 621 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 2: the case. People thought the Venusians were these great looking 622 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 2: people living in a tropical paradise. It turns out to 623 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 2: be a deadly hellish place, a hellscape on Venus. And 624 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 2: that's where I like to argue that climate change on 625 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 2: Earth was discovered on Venus when, especially James Hansen, doctor 626 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 2: Jim Hanson at Goddard Institute for Space Studies, he was 627 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 2: looking at Venus and realize what's going on in Venus 628 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,919 Speaker 2: was happening on Earth. And then all this research came 629 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 2: together and the greenhouse effect, especially due to carbonoxide, was 630 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 2: international news based on that research. So you know, when 631 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 2: we talk about space exploration, it was space exploration that 632 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 2: led to the discovery. In the modern era of climate change, 633 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,720 Speaker 2: people exploring other planets realize that we're changing the climate 634 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,959 Speaker 2: of this planet. And it does, I admit it does. 635 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:38,959 Speaker 2: Seem incredible. It does not seem possible that the humans 636 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 2: presence on Earth could change the climate of a whole planet. 637 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 2: But we have. And the example from Earth history we 638 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 2: like to give you is cyano blue green algae, cyanobacteria, 639 00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:01,280 Speaker 2: where these organisms stumbled on a way to take carbon 640 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 2: dioxide out of the air, metabolize it and make oxygen, 641 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 2: and it changed the course of planetary history. None of 642 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 2: us would be here without the species or its set 643 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 2: of species, and so this bacteria change the whole planet. 644 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 2: So yes, when you have eight going on nine billion 645 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 2: humans breathing and burning the atmosphere, you can change the 646 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 2: climate of a whole planet. But the other side, as 647 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 2: people who used to work in the White House would say, 648 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,280 Speaker 2: is just spiritually committed to the idea that climate change 649 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 2: is not happening, that humans are not causing it. Just 650 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 2: committed to the idea that it is our manifest destiny 651 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 2: to dig up old swamps and burn them. I'm talking 652 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 2: about fossil fuels, do. 653 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: The I don't mean to be referring to them as 654 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: billionaires as a pejorative, but the a lot of these 655 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: big aerospace and space exploration, space tourism companies are run 656 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 1: by individual billionaires. Is their involvement in Mars, in space 657 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: exploration and space tourism, in private space flights, like can 658 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: that interrupt things like climate research in certain places or 659 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: can they work hand in hand? Is it ultimately a 660 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: good thing that there's that much new stuff that we're asking? 661 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 2: Is it a zero sum game? 662 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: Right? Yeah? 663 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 2: Basically I don't think so. Okay, they're all winners. I 664 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 2: mean just that while the fraction of the US budget 665 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 2: goes to space explorations quite small, the fraction of the 666 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 2: billionaire's budget might be pretty large, but it's still a 667 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 2: small relatively compared to the challenge of climate change is 668 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 2: a relatively small investment everybody and space assets are going 669 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 2: to be involved in addressing climate change. You know, there's 670 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 2: Methane SAT, the satellite that's looking at methane from Earth orbit. 671 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: Ye. 672 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 2: Right now, there's PACE, this plankton satellite that can tell 673 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 2: by the light reflected off the ocean what species of 674 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 2: plankton are living in the ocean, and how they're getting 675 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 2: moved around by ocean currents, and how ocean chemistry is 676 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 2: being changed by the interaction of these species that plankton 677 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 2: with the salinity in the water and the warmth of 678 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 2: the water, and as they're all being studied from outer space, 679 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 2: from outer space people, we're learning these extraordinary things. So 680 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 2: climate change is a big issue with me, But I 681 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 2: work professionally in space exploration because I've always had this 682 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 2: wonderful passion for knowing our place in space. 683 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: Is the solution to invest in escaping Earth. Did you 684 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: hear all these people having that conversation? Is that okay? 685 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 2: The answer for me is absolutely not. Or put another way, 686 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 2: are you high like okay? The example to ask yourself is, 687 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 2: do you know anybody that goes to live, not goes 688 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 2: to explore, goes to live in Antarctica? No, it's too 689 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 2: cold and there's not enough to eat for a large 690 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 2: popular and nobody's going there to build schools and libraries 691 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 2: and stuff. People go there to learn more about Earth's 692 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 2: climate systems and ice and species that wander around there. 693 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 2: But you're not going to go there to live. And 694 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 2: if you want to run this experiment, go there to live, 695 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 2: and you have to bring your own air because on 696 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 2: Mars there's nothing to breathe. You will notice that immediately. Man, 697 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 2: if you go to Mars and open the cabin door, 698 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 2: you'll suffocate in a few seconds, and that would be undesirable. 699 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 2: And this whole idea of being a two planet species 700 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,839 Speaker 2: for the sake of being a two point on a species. 701 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 2: I am not on board with building an exploration base, 702 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 2: a science base on Mars where people come and go. Okay, 703 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 2: perhaps it is an extraordinarily difficult problem. And it's not 704 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 2: only difficult technically and scientifically, it's very difficult financially, Like, 705 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 2: how are you going to make money doing this? Is 706 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 2: a pretty. 707 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: It's a tough nut to crack. So basically you're saying no, 708 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: this guy said. 709 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 2: He wants to go die on Mars, but not on impact. Okay, 710 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 2: I just don't think he's really thought through how difficult 711 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 2: it is to be on Mars. There's no place like home, 712 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,399 Speaker 2: there's no place like Earth. Space exploration has shown us 713 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 2: there is no place like Earth. We have to be 714 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 2: stewards of this world. We are all crewmates on. 715 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,720 Speaker 1: Spaceship Earth, and it's worth saving. 716 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 2: Well if if you want to stay alive, and a 717 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,320 Speaker 2: lot of people do. There's a few people I wouldn't mind, 718 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 2: am I right? And so you probably have a few 719 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 2: people in your world, So I might be one of 720 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 2: them and all that, but Earth is extraordinary. There's no 721 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 2: other place to live. Let's go. 722 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: Thanks Bill, Thank you guys. Here we go again as 723 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Podcasts and SNAFU Media in association 724 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,320 Speaker 1: with Kelly and Kelly. Our executive producers are me Kelpen 725 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Alyssa Martino, Andy Kim, Pat Kelly, 726 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,720 Speaker 1: Chris Kelly, and Dylan Fagan. Caitlin Fontana is our producer 727 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: and writer. Dave Shumka is our producer and editor. Additional 728 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 1: writing from Megan tan Our consulting producer is Romin Borsolino. 729 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,760 Speaker 1: Tory Smith is our associate producer. Theme music by Chris Kelly, 730 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: logo by Matt Gosson. Legal review from Daniel Welsh, Caroline 731 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,240 Speaker 1: Johnson and Megan Halson. Special thanks to Glenn, Isaac Dunham, 732 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,279 Speaker 1: Adam Horne, Lane Klein and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but 733 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman and Nikki Etoor. Thanks for listening. 734 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: See you next week.