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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, have you been watching the latest Marvel movies

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Speaker 1: and TV shows?

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Speaker 2: Hmmm, I hope you're not going to ask me about

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Speaker 2: the physics of it. Oh.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't going to ask you about time travel and Loki. Mm.

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Speaker 2: But now you're not well.

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Speaker 1: Here in your reaction. I think I have to travel

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Speaker 1: back in time now and maybe think of another question.

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Speaker 2: See, that's the problem. If you had done that, we'd

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Speaker 2: never be having this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, maybe it depends on which branch of the

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Speaker 1: timeline we're on.

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Speaker 2: No, my god, there are no branches too timelines. Oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe I did go back in time and this

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Speaker 1: is a better outcome than the one that I originally

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Speaker 1: pitched to you. This might be the best timeline where

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Speaker 1: that could be.

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Speaker 2: Then I'm disappointed in the multiverse.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you just don't know how much worse it could be.

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Speaker 2: If this is the best it gets, then it must

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Speaker 2: get pretty bad.

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Speaker 1: It's like you maybe need to switch to the DC universe.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jorge Made, cartoonist and the author of Oliver's Great

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Speaker 1: Big Universe.

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Speaker 2: Hi I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 2: at UC Irvine and I can mostly read science fiction

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Speaker 2: without being grumpy mostly.

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Speaker 1: What percentage would you say is your grumpiness level when

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Speaker 1: you're reading science fiction.

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Speaker 2: There is a spot on the wall across the bedroom

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Speaker 2: where the books usually land when I throw them in frustration.

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Speaker 1: I'll just say that there's a dent there, more like.

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Speaker 2: A mark, but yeah, there's a physical impression left.

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Speaker 1: Have you actually thrown a book?

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Speaker 2: Oh many?

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Speaker 1: Yes, no way. Wow, that's a strong reaction.

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Speaker 2: It's just so disappointing when they set you up for something,

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Speaker 2: they have some interesting ideas, and then they can't even

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Speaker 2: be consistent, or they just write stuff that doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 2: It's just frustrating because it makes me think about what

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Speaker 2: it could have been.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, But you're not angry at the physics, because

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Speaker 1: I imagine the physics is all made up in science

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Speaker 1: fiction to some degree. You're more frustrated with the storytelling

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Speaker 1: or the logic of the story.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's all tied together, right, of course, the physics

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Speaker 2: is made up. It's science fiction. After all. They can

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Speaker 2: have fictional science, but it's still science. They got to

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Speaker 2: stick to it. If they're going to tell a story,

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Speaker 2: they got to follow the rules. Otherwise, if there are

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Speaker 2: no rules. It's hardly an interesting story.

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Speaker 1: Now, after you throw the book, do you go and

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Speaker 1: pick it up and finish it anyways or do you

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Speaker 1: leave it there on the pile?

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Speaker 2: It depends on what's on the top of the two

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Speaker 2: read pile.

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Speaker 1: I suppose you're not like a complete is like some

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Speaker 1: people when they start a book, they have to finish it.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I don't finish most books.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting. Have you ever thrown a podcast at the wall?

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Speaker 2: No, I've never thrown podcasts at the wall. I've just

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Speaker 2: paused them.

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Speaker 1: Although it does feel like this podcast is just us

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Speaker 1: throwing things in the wall to see what sticks.

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Speaker 2: No, this is us trying to explain physics to everybody

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Speaker 2: out there listening.

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Speaker 1: Well anyways, Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 1: the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Where we do our best not to frustrate you into

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Speaker 2: throwing your phone or computer or car across the wall,

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Speaker 2: whatever device you're using to listen to us. We want

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Speaker 2: to take you on a tour of everything that we

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Speaker 2: understand in the universe and everything that we don't. We

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Speaker 2: want to explain to you our vision of how the

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Speaker 2: universe works from the tiniest little, itty bitty bits, all

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Speaker 2: the way up to the biggest monster black holes. We

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Speaker 2: think the universe does make sense, can be made sense of,

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Speaker 2: and we want desperately to explain all of it to you.

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Speaker 1: That's right. The universe we live in is not science fiction.

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Speaker 1: It is science period science reality, and so we all

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Speaker 1: have questions about how it works while we're here and

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Speaker 1: what happens when you throw a bunch of books at

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Speaker 1: a wall.

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Speaker 2: Science reality. I like how you just renamed the whole

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Speaker 2: nonfiction job. It's a better name, though.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, science reality. There you go. Well, they have like

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Speaker 1: reality TV, why not have reality science?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't want to be lumped in with reality TV. Actually, hey,

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Speaker 2: the problem with nonfiction is you're defining it by what

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Speaker 2: it isn't instead of what it is. Right.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, nobody wants to be a non anything.

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Speaker 2: I don't not want to be that.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to be a nonconformist. Science trail blazing,

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Speaker 1: that's your job, basically. How about reality trail blazing.

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Speaker 2: Exploring the dense underbrush of reality, hacking our way through

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Speaker 2: the jungles of truth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that could be a nice show, like on Netflix,

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Speaker 1: like Big science where you put a bunch of physicists

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Speaker 1: in one house with a large particle collider and you

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Speaker 1: see what happens every week They have to vote a

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Speaker 1: physicists off.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe they have to vote a physicist into the collider.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. That is both good and horrifying.

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Speaker 2: Probably good TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's like squid games exactly, h squid physics games, science game,

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Speaker 1: science games. Yeah, there you go, particle games.

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Speaker 2: But science isn't just a game. It's a serious effort

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Speaker 2: to understand the universe, and that's what we try to

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Speaker 2: do in our jobs. We try to do on this podcast,

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Speaker 2: and we also encourage you to do because you can

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Speaker 2: also pick up a machete and help us hack through

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Speaker 2: the jungles of truth to understand the universe just by

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Speaker 2: thinking like a physicist, which means just being curious and

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Speaker 2: not settling for not understanding. There's too many knots there, huh.

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Speaker 2: I should define it in terms of positives demanding sufficient explanations.

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Speaker 2: And when you don't understand something about the universe, we

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Speaker 2: want you to write into us share your question because

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Speaker 2: probably somebody else out there has the same thought.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that was better. I'm a little

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Speaker 1: nonplussed about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty plussed.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's plus it, let's plus it some more.

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Speaker 2: I might even be multiplied it. But I don't want

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Speaker 2: to divide us over it.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, science is a game, and it all starts

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Speaker 1: with questions. The whole journey of sign starts with looking

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Speaker 1: at the world around as I'm wondering, why is it

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Speaker 1: like that? How does it work? And what would happen

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Speaker 1: if I throw this at the wall.

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Speaker 2: So you can either throw that thing at the wall,

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Speaker 2: or you can just write to us with your question

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Speaker 2: and we'll do our best to answer it. We answer

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Speaker 2: every question we get from listeners. Just write to us

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Speaker 2: to questions at Danielandjorge dot com. And some of the

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Speaker 2: questions we think other people might want to hear the

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Speaker 2: answers to, and so we select them to answer on

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Speaker 2: the podcast.

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Speaker 1: So today on the podcast, we'll be tackling listener questions

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Speaker 1: number fifty one, Oh boy, listener questions in that over

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Speaker 1: middle eight.

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Speaker 2: That's right, we're rounding up to one hundred now it's

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Speaker 2: fifty plus. We're going to get senior citizen discounts pretty soon,

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Speaker 2: starting dinner at three pm that's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the discounts oh man, does that mean we

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Speaker 1: have to give shorter answers.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to offend our senior listeners by suggesting

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Speaker 2: that they can't comprehend long complex answers.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm just saying, you know, your appetite goes down

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Speaker 1: as you age.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I see smaller meals. I don't know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 2: more top us, maybe more top us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go, more variety, because let's face it,

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Speaker 1: the time is running out for those of us.

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Speaker 2: Over fifty, unless you live near the vicinity of a

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Speaker 2: black hole, in which case time is slowing down for

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Speaker 2: others but not for you. Yeah, but relatively for you.

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Speaker 2: You see everybody else living really fast.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's try to get through these questions as fast

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Speaker 1: as we can then.

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Speaker 2: And the first one is actually about time. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have some awesome questions here today about the

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Speaker 1: speed of light near a black hole, about quantum entanglement,

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Speaker 1: and also about possible time travel. Pretty awesome questions from people, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: Do these questions make you smile when you get them?

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Speaker 2: All the questions make me smile. I love that ding

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Speaker 2: when I get a question in the listener inbox and

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Speaker 2: lets me take a break from whatever else I'm doing

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Speaker 2: and think about physics.

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Speaker 1: But way you were thinking about physics before, So your

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Speaker 1: break from physics is to think about physics.

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Speaker 2: Mostly I was thinking about spreadsheets and email every job spreadsheets, email.

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Speaker 1: And grants and grand proposals, budgets. Oh I see. So

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Speaker 1: then do you actually get to think about physics?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What if your grand students send you a question about physics,

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Speaker 1: is that the flatter or the former situation? No comment

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Speaker 1: depends on the student. Actually is it an involved spreadsheet

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Speaker 1: or a budget question?

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Speaker 2: Depends Maybe their question is, hey, are you funding me

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Speaker 2: next quarter? Or their question is like, how do we

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Speaker 2: do anomally detection in this space of multiple tracks? You know,

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Speaker 2: depends on and they're asking.

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Speaker 1: I see, and one of those is good and the

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Speaker 1: other one is bad. Is that they're different, they're different different.

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Speaker 1: I see.

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Speaker 4: You are.

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Speaker 1: All right? Well, we have some awesome questions here to

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Speaker 1: the answer. Let's just jump right in. Our first question

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Speaker 1: comes from Nathan from Seattle.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Danieline Horay, my name is Nathan Ramon from Seattle, Washington,

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Speaker 3: and I have a question for y'all. I was watching

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Speaker 3: ant Man last week, and it occurred to me that

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Speaker 3: they are so small in that movie, right, that the

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Speaker 3: speed of light might actually act a little bit differently.

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Speaker 3: They're so small at that point that if the universe

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Speaker 3: is still reacting, like still has the speed of light

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Speaker 3: at the same rate, which it might not necessarily. They

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Speaker 3: do talk a lot about how they're outside of space and.

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Speaker 5: Time, but if it has that same speed limit, if

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Speaker 5: you're so much smaller, it would make it feel to

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Speaker 5: me like White was going way way faster. Sorry from

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Speaker 5: my ramblem, let me know if you need clarification on that,

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Speaker 5: and thanks for all you guys. Do I love your podcast?

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Speaker 1: All right? Awesome question from Nathan, a Marvel fan. It

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Speaker 1: seems well he didn't say whether he liked those movies.

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Speaker 1: He just as he watched them and he had a

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Speaker 1: small opinion about at Man.

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Speaker 2: Well, the cool thing is he was watching it and

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Speaker 2: he was thinking about the physics of it, like, does

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Speaker 2: this make sense? How would this work? What would it

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Speaker 2: actually be like to be that small? Would the experience

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Speaker 2: of it be based on the phil principles of the universe?

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Speaker 1: Have we done an episode on the physics of the

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Speaker 1: Marvel movies? I feel like we talk about them all

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Speaker 1: the time, but have we done like a whole dedicated

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Speaker 1: episode to it.

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Speaker 2: M Is there any physics of the Marvel movies or is.

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Speaker 1: It always it's science fiction?

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Speaker 2: Daniel, It's fiction, for sure.

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Speaker 1: But the an Men movies are pretty good. The first

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Speaker 1: one was really good, the second one was maybe not

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Speaker 1: as good, and the there one was not as good,

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Speaker 1: but overall it's sort of a charming character.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I saw the first one. I enjoyed it.

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Speaker 2: And the visit to the quantum Realm I thought was

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Speaker 2: visually very creative. I thought the way they displayed it

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Speaker 2: was very cool, very different from your standard depictions. So

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Speaker 2: it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: Did I tell you I know the guy who came

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Speaker 1: up with the term the quantum realm?

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Speaker 2: Oh wow?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my friend Spiris mcglaucus. He's a physicist and he

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Speaker 1: consulted for Marvel, and one day he was giving them

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Speaker 1: a little spiel in the conference room and he's like,

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Speaker 1: things are very different in the quantum realm, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: we like that, that's in the script.

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Speaker 2: Oh quantum reil.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he kind of has mixed feelings about what they've

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Speaker 1: done with the ter and the whole idea of quantum physics.

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Speaker 1: But it's pretty cool that he had that contribution.

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Speaker 2: The lesson is be careful what you say around writers.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yes, we cannot be trusted with the innermost

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Speaker 1: secrets or emotions or physics. But yeah, Nathan has an

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Speaker 1: interesting question. His question is does the speed of light

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Speaker 1: seem faster if you're smaller? So, if you were small,

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Speaker 1: I guess at the level of ant man, does it

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Speaker 1: mean that you see light move faster for you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think this is a really interesting question because

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Speaker 2: it makes us think about the speed of light and

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Speaker 2: the impact on physics, sort of the big and the small,

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Speaker 2: and the way that I think about the speed of light,

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Speaker 2: I think the way most physicists do, is that it's

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Speaker 2: like a ratio between space and time. It's like a

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Speaker 2: conversion between meters and seconds. Like meters is a measurement

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Speaker 2: of distance, seconds is the measurement of time. And the

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Speaker 2: fact that the universe has this number, this maximum speed

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Speaker 2: tells you a relationship between space and time and tells

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Speaker 2: you how to convert a huge distance into a time,

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Speaker 2: and we're often doing that. Like the phrase a light

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Speaker 2: year tells you how far light will go in a year.

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Speaker 2: It sounds kind of like a unit of time, but

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Speaker 2: it's actually distance. You've taken time, you're multiplied by the

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Speaker 2: speed of light, and you've gotten a distance.

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Speaker 1: It's like a measurement that you get by dividing distance

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Speaker 1: divided by time. But does it really tie those two

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Speaker 1: concepts together, like at a fundamental you know, physics level,

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Speaker 1: because like, you know, you can talk about the speed

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Speaker 1: of whorehet down the track that, like my speed is

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Speaker 1: a speed that you can measure and compute, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really tell you anything except how out of shape

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Speaker 1: I am.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Also, the speed of foregete probably changes as a

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Speaker 2: function of time in the universe.

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Speaker 1: And how much chocolate you have, yeah, how many bananas

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Speaker 1: of eaten?

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Speaker 2: But the speed of light really does play a deep

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Speaker 2: role in physics, and it really serves that purpose of

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Speaker 2: converting between space and time. You know, we often talk

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Speaker 2: about like space time being a four dimensional object with

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Speaker 2: the original three dimensions of space and this worth dimension

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Speaker 2: of time. But there's a subtle thing there we don't

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Speaker 2: often talk about, which is that when we include times

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Speaker 2: fourth dimension, we usually multiply it by the speed of light.

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Speaker 2: So the four dimensions are actually like xyz and then ct,

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Speaker 2: not just time because we want to convert it to

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Speaker 2: effectively a distance.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, you do have to keep the units consistent.

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Speaker 1: But like, for example, if we had a different speed

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Speaker 1: of light in our universe, you know, things would be different.

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Speaker 1: The physics of the universe would be different, but would

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Speaker 1: space itself and would time itself be different.

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Speaker 2: They would be the same, but their relationship would be different.

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Speaker 2: That's what the speed of light is. It's a ratio

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Speaker 2: a relationship between these two different kinds of measurements. Yeah, fundamentally,

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Speaker 2: it really is telling you how these two things relate.

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Speaker 1: H all right, Well, to answer Nathan's questions, let's say

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Speaker 1: I shrink down. Let's say I'm at man or the

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Speaker 1: wasp and I shrink down. Is the speed of lighting?

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Speaker 1: It seemed faster for me? Like if I measure the

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Speaker 1: speed of light, that's scale isn't going to seem faster.

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Speaker 1: Or like if I shine a flashlight will do somehow

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Speaker 1: the flash light seem quicker or brighter or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the speed of light is going to be the

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Speaker 2: same because it's the same ratio between distances and times. Right,

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Speaker 2: So you measure the speed of light. Using a tiny

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Speaker 2: little experiment or a huge experiment, you're going to get

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Speaker 2: the same answer. But if you think of the speed

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Speaker 2: of light as a ratio between distance and time, what

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Speaker 2: it means is that everything seems faster when you're small.

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Speaker 2: Like basically, shorter distances mean shorter times. Things that are

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Speaker 2: smaller can happen faster than things that are bigger.

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Speaker 1: So like, for example, if you not just shrink me,

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Speaker 1: but I use shrink the whole Earth, then for example,

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Speaker 1: light can go around the Earth many more times per second.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Or if let's say you build a machine

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Speaker 2: like a computer or even a mechanical device to do something,

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Speaker 2: if it's smaller, it can finish faster than if it's huge.

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Speaker 2: The bigger it is, the longer it'll take to finish,

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Speaker 2: because there's this maximum speed limit. And that's why, like

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Speaker 2: the speed of light seems really really fast to us

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Speaker 2: here on Earth, is this crazy high number. It's basically

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Speaker 2: irrelevant to our experience. It's because things that are almost instantaneous.

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Speaker 2: But imagine if you are a brain made of like stars,

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Speaker 2: you're like a galaxy size brain, it would take like

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand years to even have a thought.

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Speaker 1: But then your thinking would be slower, so your cognition

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Speaker 1: or your perception of time would be slower. So I

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Speaker 1: think maybe Nathan's question I wonder is whether time will

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Speaker 1: seem to be going faster or maybe it will seem

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Speaker 1: to be the same, right, Because like, if I'm the

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Speaker 1: size of a galaxy, my thoughts are going to be

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Speaker 1: super slow. And so even though any effect I'm in

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Speaker 1: the sea is going to be super slow because with

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Speaker 1: the distances, my thoughts are going to be slow. And

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Speaker 1: so therefore the experience of being that person is going

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Speaker 1: to be the same as our experience here on Earth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there's a few things there to disentangle,

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Speaker 2: but basically you're right. Number one, if you measure the

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Speaker 2: speed of light, you're going to get the same number.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if you're a galaxy brain or an

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Speaker 2: ant brain, right, as long as you do it correctly,

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Speaker 2: you're going to get this same number. Number two, things

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Speaker 2: do seem to happen faster when you're smaller because you're

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Speaker 2: just not as limited by this speed of light. Things

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Speaker 2: have shorter distances to cross in order to accomplish some

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Speaker 2: thinking or some task or whatever. Number three, Finally, we

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Speaker 2: don't really know what it would be like to experience

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Speaker 2: that what it seemed like time goes faster. We don't

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Speaker 2: understand our experience of time or why we seem to

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Speaker 2: experience it at you know, one second per second. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know what it would be like to be

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Speaker 2: a galaxy brain. They might have the same kind of

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Speaker 2: subjective experience we do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Or like thinking about the shrinking case, like if

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Speaker 1: I shrink down to enman size, now my brain is smaller,

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Speaker 1: Like the distances between my neurons are smaller, and so

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Speaker 1: maybe my thinking will be sort of like hypercharge. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like I'll have a million of thoughts in the same

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Speaker 1: amount of time that it used to take me to

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Speaker 1: have one thought, and so I'll be sort of super

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Speaker 1: bored looking at the bigger world, but looking at the

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Speaker 1: small world, maybe it'll just seem like the same regular

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Speaker 1: because things are moving faster. But I'm also like having

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Speaker 1: a bazillion more cycles in my brain than I did before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So we don't know what the experience would

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Speaker 2: be like. This is an interesting wrinkle of evolutionary biology.

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Speaker 2: There also which is wondering, like could humans be smarter?

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Speaker 2: You can imagine being smarter by having like a bigger

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Speaker 2: brain more neurons, but then it's harder to get that

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Speaker 2: brain through the birth canal. You could also imagine getting

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Speaker 2: smarter by having more neurons by making the neurons smaller.

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Speaker 2: But I was reading a paper that said that if

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Speaker 2: neurons got any smaller, they would be noisier, like more

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Speaker 2: randomness and fuzz so it might not actually add computing power,

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Speaker 2: So we might be at like the sweet spot of

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Speaker 2: like the densest neuronal systems.

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Speaker 1: Well, the other thing to consider is that neurons work

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Speaker 1: by bioelectricity, right, biochemistry, not necessarily by like transmitting electrons. Right.

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Speaker 1: It all depends on sort of reactions and electric fields

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Speaker 1: and like molecules moving in and out of the little

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Speaker 1: cell walls.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, if you could actually shrink all that stuff,

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Speaker 2: it would happen faster. Of course, you know, the physics

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Speaker 2: wouldn't work if you shrink all that stuff because all

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Speaker 2: the numbers would change. So the fundamental physics of ant

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Speaker 2: Man is silly because you know, if he's shrunk down

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Speaker 2: the size of an electron, then how big are his electrons? Right?

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Speaker 1: Right, So basically we get into the fuzzy area of

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Speaker 1: like perception and the subjective experience. But generally speaking, I

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Speaker 1: think from a physics point of view, if you were

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Speaker 1: down to the size of ant man, the light would

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Speaker 1: sort of seem to travel faster, right, Like it would

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Speaker 1: go one body length in a much shorter amount of

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Speaker 1: time than it would go at our size.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, your body would be shorter, so light would go

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Speaker 2: across you faster, and I think a lot of things

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Speaker 2: would happen faster. I don't know how he can say

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Speaker 2: what it would be like though, to experience it.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it would be even that different, Like

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Speaker 1: what's the difference between almost intustanious and almost almost instaneous.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the difference is not that great, or maybe he's

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Speaker 1: thinking about it, like when admin goes down to like

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Speaker 1: the quantum size.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but as you say, distances are already so small

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Speaker 2: compared to the speed of light, then our experience is

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Speaker 2: very difficult to even tell that it's not instantaneous. It

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Speaker 2: took people a long time to be able to devise

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Speaker 2: experiments to measure the speed of light. That to be

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Speaker 2: very very clever, because it's so blazingly fast compared to

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Speaker 2: the distances in which we live. If you realize galaxy

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Speaker 2: brain and then you got shrunk down to ant man,

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Speaker 2: that might be more dramatic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Or I wondered maybe the equivalent conversion is like,

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Speaker 1: let's say you and I are living in our everyday

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Speaker 1: lives here, but suddenly the speed of light goes up

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Speaker 1: by a factor of ten. Let's say it was now

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Speaker 1: three million kilometers per second. Would we even notice a difference.

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Speaker 2: We wouldn't notice the difference here on Earth, but suddenly

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Speaker 2: the rest of the universe would effectively be closer to us.

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Speaker 2: You know, we could see things happening faster, We could

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Speaker 2: get places faster. The size of a galaxy would effectively

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Speaker 2: seem smaller.

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Speaker 1: Well, seem smaller, No, it'll still be the same distance.

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Speaker 1: We would just see it sooner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like our information bubble would be larger. The distance

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Speaker 2: over which things appear to happen instantaneously would be bigger.

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Speaker 1: Maybe see further out or or I guess what we

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Speaker 1: see would be more up to date, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: More recent exactly. The time lag would no longer be

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Speaker 2: noticeable for things that are close to us. Is to

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Speaker 2: look even further out to notice that time lag?

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Speaker 1: Well, I feel like they're not even noticeable. Now, like

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Speaker 1: I can tell the difference between a billion year old

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Speaker 1: star and a million year.

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Speaker 2: Old star, astronomers can All.

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Speaker 1: Right, well, I think that answer is a question, which

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Speaker 1: is that the speed of light would not be different,

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Speaker 1: but maybe your experience of it would be different. All right, Well,

441
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 1: thanks for that question, Nathan. Let's get to our other questions.

442
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 1: We have one here about quantum entanglement and time travel,

443
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,439
Speaker 1: so we'll get to those, but first let's take a

444
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 1: quick break. All right, we're answering listener questions here today,

445
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 1: and our next question is about quantum entanglement.

446
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 4: How to Daniel question for you? Assume we know particle

447
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 4: A and the particle B are entangled, and for simplicity's sake,

448
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 4: let's say the states are positive or negative, and there's

449
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 4: a fifty to fifty chance. Now, what would happen if

450
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 4: two independent observers we can call them A and B

451
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 4: for their respective particles, observed these two particles at the

452
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 4: exact same time. This question really breaks my brain. The

453
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 4: more I think about it, the less I feel like

454
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 4: I understand special relativity, and the less I feel like

455
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 4: I understand quantum mechanics. And adding to their question, is

456
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 4: it even possible to make two observations with two observers

457
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 4: at the same time. I really appreciate it. Thanks for

458
00:21:58,880 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 4: helping me understand.

459
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 1: All right, Well, that's quite a mindful of a question here.

460
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 1: And Daniel, I notice he asked a question of you,

461
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: not me, So I think I can just sit this

462
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 1: one out because honestly, I don't understand the question. I'm

463
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: a bit entangled in the whole flurry of words.

464
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 2: You felt like some of the other physics questions were

465
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 2: aimed towards you.

466
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 1: The last one did say Daniel and Jorge, I think

467
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 1: I was one of the targets. And sometimes they say hey,

468
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: guys plural, so it does mean the two of us.

469
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 2: Well, I think he's also counting on you to help

470
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 2: me translate my understanding into something.

471
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 1: Ever, no, no, no, I feel snubbed, So I'm not

472
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 1: even gonna chime in.

473
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do my best, but I'm pretty sure you're

474
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 2: going to have a hard time not interrupting.

475
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 1: What are you trying to say?

476
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 2: What are you trying to say? It's your job and

477
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 2: you do it beautifully, man.

478
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: What are you trying to say? Daniel? Did I interrupt you?

479
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.

480
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 1: All right, So what is the question? I know it's

481
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: about quantum entanglement, but it didn't quite get the gist

482
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: of it.

483
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the question is about quantum entanglement and special

484
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: relativity and how these two things come together. But let's

485
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 2: start just with the basic issue of quantum entanglement, which

486
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 2: is weird enough, right. Quantum entanglement says what happens if

487
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: you have two particles that are like the output of

488
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 2: a single process. Something makes two particles, and so their

489
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 2: fate is connected. Like let's say you have two electrons created,

490
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 2: and one has to be spin up and one has

491
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 2: to be spinned down because of the way they're made.

492
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: The universe doesn't care which one is spin up and

493
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 2: which one is spin down as long as they point opposite. Now,

494
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 2: if you take those two particles and you send them

495
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: different directions, they're now far apart. Quantum entanglement says that

496
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: they're still somehow connected, that their fates are joined, And

497
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 2: so if you measure one to be spin up, you

498
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 2: now know the other one is spin down. But it's

499
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 2: more than just like knowing that they have to be opposite.

500
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: Quantum entanglement tells us that they're actually not determined that

501
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 2: neither one is spin up or spin down. They both

502
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: have that possibility, and that as soon as you measure one,

503
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: then the fate of the other one is determined. That's

504
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 2: a weird bit about quantum entanglement.

505
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 1: Oh wait, you want me to jump in now you're

506
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: going to interrupt. Yeah, So that's the basic of entanglement, right,

507
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: Like you have two quantum things, like a particle or

508
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: an atom or some sort of quantum object, and it's fuzzy,

509
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,239
Speaker 1: you don't know what it actually is inside. But if

510
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: two of them have some sort of shared history, some

511
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: sort of shared origin that ties them together, that's what

512
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 1: quantum intalgent and guildment is.

513
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: That's right, there's some correlation between them that's created locally

514
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,959
Speaker 2: when they're like both made and sent apart, but then

515
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 2: the correlation persists as they get further and further apart.

516
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 2: And again, this is not a scenario where one of

517
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: them actually is spin up and the other one actually

518
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 2: is spin down and we just don't know. We've proven

519
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 2: through a whole complicated series of experiments suggested by John Bell,

520
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: that they actually are undetermined until you measure. So the

521
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: weird bit and the thing that makes it hard to

522
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 2: reconcile with special relativity is that, apparently this happens instantaneously.

523
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: You have these two particles that have a shared face,

524
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: but they're both undetermined. Now you send them like five

525
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: kilometers apart, you measure one of them, you get to

526
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 2: spin up instantly. The other one has to be spinned down.

527
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 2: It went from I don't know, maybe up or down

528
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: to has to be down instantaneously across space and.

529
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 1: Time, right, which that first glance seems to violate the

530
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: speed of light. Right, because something changed in one part

531
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: of the universe, and then it suddenly costs something else

532
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 1: to change in another part, seemingly instantaneously.

533
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: Exactly what you said is important. You said it violates

534
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 2: the speed of light, and that's correct. This is something

535
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: that happens faster than the speed of light. Speed of

536
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 2: light says is a limit to how fast things can

537
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: happen across the universe. This is instantaneous, but doesn't actually

538
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: break special relativity because you're not sending information faster than

539
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: the speed of light. Like the quantum state is non local,

540
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 2: It stretches over space and collapses instantaneously. The whole thing

541
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 2: at the same time, but you can't actually use that

542
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: to send information. Are often writing in and saying, well,

543
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: can't I send information by making a measurement and the

544
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 2: other person's going to see that theirs is now collapsed.

545
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: You can't actually tell when your probabilities have collapsed. All

546
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: you can do is measure or not measure. When you

547
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 2: measure your particle, you don't know if it was already

548
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: collapsed or if you're collapsing it by measuring it.

549
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: Right. Also, when you collapse one of them, it's not

550
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: like you're sending that information to the other person. Like

551
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: let's say we entangle to particles. I have one, and

552
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: when we split up a part I have one, you

553
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: have one. If I open mind, I measure it and

554
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: I see it that for example, it's up, and I

555
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: know that yours is down. Like I know something about

556
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 1: your particle, But that doesn't mean you know that about

557
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: your particle. Like to you over there in Irvine, your

558
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: particle is still this quantum object that could be fifty

559
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: percent up or down. So like, no information is actually

560
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: traveled unless I send you an email, which would then

561
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: be limited by the speed of light exactly, and or

562
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: my sale signal exactly. And if I still have my

563
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: particle in the box, you measure yours. I can't tell,

564
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: well if you've measured yours, like mine doesn't look any

565
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: different if I'm not measuring it, I'm just waiting to

566
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,479
Speaker 1: measure it. I don't know if you've measured yours or not.

567
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: I can't tell that you have measured it. So it's

568
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: like information about something far away has been revealed to

569
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: me instantaneously, But that doesn't mean that information actually got

570
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: transmitted from one place to the other.

571
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

572
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: So then what's the actual question here?

573
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: So the question is what happens we measure them at

574
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: the same time. Who collapses the wave function? Mmmm?

575
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: So we each have a particle that's been entangled the

576
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: other and we open it at the same time, nothing happens.

577
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: Right, Well, this is a really interesting question.

578
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: Like you'll find that you'll find yours up and I'll

579
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: find my down, or I'll find mine up and you'll

580
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: find yours. Now that's all that really happens, is it.

581
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? I love your answer, and you're right from the

582
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: point of view of like what we experience. You open

583
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: your box, you measure it up or you measure it down.

584
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 2: But I think what he's asking is, like, what's happening

585
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 2: behind the scenes? You know, what is the wave function doing?

586
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: Even if we can't observe it and can't measure it

587
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 2: and can't ever know what in theory is the explanation

588
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: for how this happens. And I think there's touching on

589
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: a deeper question, which is about simultaneity. We talked on

590
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 2: the podcast how special relativity tells us that at the

591
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: same time is a fuzzy concept. Two events could occur

592
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: at the same time for one person, but not for

593
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: somebody else if they have a different velocity or different

594
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: location in space. And so this seems very fuzzy all

595
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: of a sudden, like two people measure the wave function

596
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: at the same time, what happens to that wave function?

597
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: And what happens according to somebody flying by in a

598
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: spaceship at nearly the speed of light?

599
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: So then what's the answer for our question? Asker?

600
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: So the best answer to the way you just gave,

601
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: which is this is not a physical problem.

602
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: This is only I answered the question even though he

603
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: didn't ask me, I'm the one who ended up answering.

604
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: You answered it. In the classical dismissive way, which is like,

605
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. It's just a philosophy question about what's

606
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: happening to the wave function. It's not a question.

607
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I was being pejorative maybe.

608
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: But it's true though it's an important distinction. We know

609
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: what would happen. I measure mine, you measure yours done,

610
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter, right, But the question is what's

611
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: happening behind the scenes, which is a philosophical question about

612
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: something we may never be able to know, like what

613
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: is the wave function really? And there's whole philosophical debates

614
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: about whether the wave function is just a mathematical tool

615
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 2: we use to make these calculations, or if it's a

616
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: real physical thing in the universe. And so there's long

617
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: answer is it depends on what you think the wave

618
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: function is. It depends on your philosophical interpretation of quantum mechanics.

619
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: And we can walk through a few of those examples.

620
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: Like is there a wave function that physically connects my

621
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: particle to your particle or is the wave function just

622
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: some mathematical tool we used to explain things when things

623
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: are not far apart. Yeah, and then when you split them,

624
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: maybe actually you get two wave functions or maybe there's

625
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: no such thing as a physical common wave.

626
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: Function, or maybe there are many wave functions, or maybe

627
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: the wave function never collapses. Now in the standard interpretation

628
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: of quantum mechanics, which I'll say up front is nonsense,

629
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: the Copenhague interpretation, which doesn't work and is deeply flawed,

630
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 2: but it's still the one most people think about and

631
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: is most often taught. In that interpretation, the wave function

632
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: is a thing, and it's real, and before you measure something,

633
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: it allows for multiple possibilities, like the wave function says

634
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: you might be up and you might be down. And

635
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: then when you make a measurement with a classical object

636
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: where classical object is not defined, just something big, then

637
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: it collapses and it chooses one of these options. And

638
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: I think it's in that scenario that the question is asking,

639
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: like number one, what happens if two people make the

640
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: measurement at the same time, who collapses it? And then

641
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: what happens to an observer flying by the speed of light?

642
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: The answer is sort of nonsense. Like number one, if

643
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: two people make your measurement at the same time, well,

644
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,719
Speaker 2: you can't do that in Copenhagen interpretation because you can

645
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: only make one measurement on a wave function at a time.

646
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: It's just not allowed because making a measurement changes the

647
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: wave function, and you have to do them in sequence.

648
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: That's why it's like important whether you're measuring position or

649
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: momentum first, or momentum and then position, because every measurement

650
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: change is a wave function. There's no way to even

651
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: describe making two measurements at the same time.

652
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: I see, well, if there is sort of like a

653
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: physical wave function connecting my particle to your particle, then

654
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: you do sort of get the sense of that there

655
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: is a shared now.

656
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: But even though it's quantum mechanical, unless you're gonna pixelate time,

657
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: time itself is infinitely divisible, So saying you're making two

658
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: measurements at the same time would mean you're like exactly

659
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: matching those two moments.

660
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: Meaning like maybe there's no way to know who collapsed

661
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: it first unless we somehow sink clocks or something beforehand

662
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: and then we compare clocks afterwards.

663
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: But you'd have to sink them exactly perfectly to like

664
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 2: an infinite number of digits, which seems impossible, right, And

665
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: it gets even weirder if you ask, like what happens

666
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: according to other observers, Like, what if I make my

667
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: measurement and then ten seconds later you make your measurement,

668
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: and now, in our frame of reference, I was first

669
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: and you were second. But somebody flying by at the

670
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: speed of light, they could your measurement happen first before

671
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: mine because the order events is not guaranteed in special

672
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: relativity depends on the observer.

673
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: Interesting, So I think what you're saying is that in

674
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: the quantum realm, at man would not know what time

675
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: it is.

676
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: I'm saying that this picture of the wave function collapsing

677
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: and happening instantly across space in time, that picture itself

678
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: doesn't really work in the Coponhagd interpretation. Imagine a more

679
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: complex situation, for example, like an observer flying by and

680
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: then changing directions and going the other way. As they

681
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: change directions, their concept of what happens first when happens

682
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: second changes, So you could arrange a trajectory where they're

683
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: seeing me make my measurement first, and then later they

684
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: see you make your measurement first because their velocity is changing.

685
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: And in that scenario, the wave function collapses in one

686
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: way and then uncollapses and recollapses in a different way,

687
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: so like the whole picture becomes very confusing and it's

688
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: kind of nonsensical, but it doesn't change anything physical. This

689
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: is just philosophical and there are other philosophical approaches to

690
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: quantum mechanics that don't have these issues that the Copenhagen

691
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: interpretation has, and Copenhagen is already known to be nonsense

692
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 2: because this division between like what is quantum and what

693
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 2: is classical is not even defined or described.

694
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: Well, it seems like kind of the main problem is

695
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: that you're basically trying to put together general relativity and

696
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, which, as we've talked about a million times

697
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: in this podcast, like they don't really play well with

698
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: each other, right, Like, quantum mechanics is kind of a

699
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: local effect and general relativity things that happen over maybe

700
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: big distances or big amounts of time, and it involves

701
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: curature time and space, and so we don't really know

702
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: how to marry those two.

703
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure we're getting into general relativity here.

704
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 2: Really all these questions are about special relativity, and we

705
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: do know how to marry special relativity and quantum mechanics

706
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: into a theory. We have relativistic quantum mechanics, and we

707
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: have quantum field theories, and those make predictions about all

708
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 2: the measurements, and those all work. The philosophical underpinnings of

709
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: what happens when you try to bring these two together

710
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: is more complicated, and there people have a lot of disagreements.

711
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: But what's going on behind the scenes.

712
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: Well, I think maybe the basic conclusion is that I

713
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: answered this question and even though I wasn't asked for you.

714
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's get to our last question, which

715
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: is about time travel, and the question people should think

716
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: about during this break is do we already answer this

717
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: question or are we going to answer it in the future.

718
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: Or have we already answered it in the future?

719
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, or have we already asked this question about answering

720
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: the question in the past?

721
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: Have we already made every possible time travel check?

722
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: Let's go back in time and make some more but

723
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break. Or are we're answering

724
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: listening to questions here today? And our last question of

725
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 1: the day is about the past, the present, the future

726
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: and whether we can move between them.

727
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 6: Hey, guys, this is Trevor. I was recently listening to

728
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 6: an episode of the podcast in which Daniel mentions that

729
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 6: we have never observed anything that was moving backwards in time.

730
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 6: My question is, how would we be able to identify

731
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 6: whether an object we're observing was moving backwards in time?

732
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 6: What characteristics would make backwards motion in time distinguishable to us?

733
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 6: Are we sure we would even be able to observe

734
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 6: a reverse time object while we are moving forward in time.

735
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 6: I love what you guys do, and I sincerely appreciate

736
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 6: you taking my.

737
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: Question interesting question. I feel like this question relates to

738
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: the movie Tenet. Have you seen that movie?

739
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: I've seen that movie and I saw that. Christopher Nolan

740
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: was like, people who try to understand Tenant are not

741
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 2: really getting what I was after. Like, the movie just

742
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense.

743
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: He's like, why are people throwing my movie at the wall?

744
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 1: It's signs fiction people, It's.

745
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: Not supposed to make sense, he says, as he presents

746
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 2: and asks you to solve it.

747
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: Like what, Yeah, It's all about the experience of the mystery, right.

748
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 2: I'm not being a physicist. I'm just like experiencing the universe. Man,

749
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to fit it all together in my

750
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,959
Speaker 2: head in the way that makes sense. Yeah.

751
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe your wall would be intact if he took

752
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: that attitude more. But yeah, in the movie Tenet, they

753
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: sort of figure out how to make something move backwards

754
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: in time, Like they can make a bullet move backwards

755
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: in time, and so even though we're moving forwards in time,

756
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: the bullet is moving backwards in time. And at some

757
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: point they make people move backwards in time.

758
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: Right, I don't know. I went back in time and

759
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: erased that movie from them, Right.

760
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: I think that's the basic question that Trevor has here,

761
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: which is like, could something move backwards in time? And

762
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: would we know it's moving backwards in time?

763
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really cool question with a lot of

764
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: interesting subtlety, depending exactly what you mean by move backwards

765
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: in time, because there's a fundamental question we have about time,

766
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: which is like why does it flow forward? If you

767
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 2: look at the equations of physics, they seem to work

768
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: just as well forwards and backwards. You know, for most things.

769
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: If you took a video of them, and then you

770
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: play the video forwards and you play the video backwards,

771
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 2: the laws of physics would work just as well for

772
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: both scenarios Like you're playing pool and you hit a

773
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: ball and they bounce off each other. You could play

774
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 2: that whole reaction backwards and the same thing would work

775
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: according to the laws of momentum and all that kind

776
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: of stuff.

777
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: In like a perfect world, in a perfect bouncy ball

778
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: that doesn't lose energy each time it bounces, like a

779
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,439
Speaker 1: bouncing ball moving forwards in time looked exactly like a

780
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: bouncing ball moving backwards sometimes.

781
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we could start with the individual particles, so

782
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 2: we're not thinking about like ten to the twenty nine

783
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 2: objects and thermodynamics yet for like the individual particles, these

784
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: rules work just as well forwards and backwards in time.

785
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: Meaning like if you records and particles having some interactions

786
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: when you play it backwards, that's also a perfectly feasible

787
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: thing for the particles to do, or what you observe

788
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 1: on doing is also perfectly feasible.

789
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 2: Yes, ninety nine point ninety nine percent. There's a little

790
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: asterisk there about how some particle interactions do prefer one

791
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: direction in time, but it's a really really tiny effect.

792
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: So then what are you saying. Are you're saying like

793
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: we are technically all moving backwards and forwards in time,

794
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: or there's no meaning to something moving backwards in time.

795
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: I think that implies something really interesting about the universe,

796
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: about causality. It implies that, of course the past determines

797
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 2: the future, right, things flow, the laws of physics determine things,

798
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: but also that the future is unique because the future

799
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 2: is determined by the past. But you could also flip

800
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: it the other way around. You could say the future

801
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 2: determines the past, right, Like if there's only one possible

802
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 2: future for every past, and you can go from the

803
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 2: future and predict the past if they're you know, connected

804
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 2: by the laws of physics in the same way, then

805
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: like what direction is causality anyway? And so that's what

806
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: we mean when we say, like which direction does time flow?

807
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: The laws of physics don't care. There's sort of like

808
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 2: time independent.

809
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: Right, Well, you sort of get into the idea of

810
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: determinism and whether things move in a predictable way, but

811
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: doesn't quantum mechanics sort of do away with that, Like,

812
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: you know, I can't really predict the future because what

813
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: absurdin particle is going to do is sort of random

814
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 1: according to quantum physics. And if I have an outcome

815
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: of a particle, I can't really trace back its history

816
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: because there was a random process somewhere in the middle.

817
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question, and there's a couple directions there. Now,

818
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,919
Speaker 2: if you only have quantum interactions, then what you said

819
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 2: is not technically correct because quantum information is preserved and

820
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: you can go forwards and backwards, like if there's no

821
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: wave function collapse, then the future is completely predicted by

822
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 2: the past, and you can derive the past from the future.

823
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 2: You know. Quantum information just flows through time like particles

824
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: into react with each other. There may be randomness, but

825
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 2: if there's no wave function collapse, so you don't force

826
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 2: the universe to choose from those probability distributions, then all

827
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 2: that information is preserved. So wave function collapse does break

828
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: that deep rule of quantum mechanics, which is another reason

829
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: why wave function collapse is kind of nonsense from a

830
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: philosophical and a physics point of view and not something

831
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: we understand.

832
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,959
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, we're having your crossover here with another question.

833
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: The other question.

834
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 2: Connected man in the quantum realm, there is a larger

835
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 2: sense in which we think quantum mechanics does yield a

836
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: definition of time because the randomness of quantum mechanics does

837
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: affect like multiple particles, And we talked about an individual

838
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: particle and what happens to it. Now, imagine like ten

839
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: to the thirty particles. Instead of tracing each of them individually,

840
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: you're thinking about the population of those particles. What are

841
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 2: they more likely to do or less likely to do?

842
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 2: And because they're governed by randomness.

843
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: Let's stick to maybe one particle. Like The classic example

844
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: of a of a quantum particle is like if I

845
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: s an electron at a magnetic electric field, is it

846
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: going to veer to the right or is it going

847
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: to veer.

848
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:05,479
Speaker 2: To the left.

849
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: Now, in the past, I don't know whether it's going

850
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: to be veering to the right or to the left.

851
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: But then I shoot it at the electric field and

852
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: the particle goes right or left. Now I'm in the future,

853
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: and the particle went right.

854
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: Because you collapse the wave function by insisting on measuring

855
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: it with a classical object. Let's change your experiment a

856
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: little bit. Let's say you shoot the electron into the

857
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: magnetic field, but you don't measure which direction it went

858
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: With some big classical thing like a detector or an

859
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: eyeball or a graduate student, you record whether it went

860
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: left or right. Into some other quantum object. You know

861
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 2: another particle or photon or something.

862
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: But I reject your scenario, Daniel. I reject your scenario,

863
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: and I want to stick to my scenario. In my scenario,

864
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: there's a future which is the wind right that I

865
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: couldn't know in the past.

866
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

867
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: And if I'm in the future and I saw that

868
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: the particle went right, I can still sort of figure

869
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: out where the particle came from. So it just sort

870
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: of seems like there is a direction to time. In

871
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: the past, I couldn't tell the future, but in the

872
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 1: future I could tell the past.

873
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: Yes, if there's wave function collapse.

874
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 1: Which there was in this scenario.

875
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: Which violates a basic principle quantum mechanics loss of information,

876
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: then yes, the future is different from the past because

877
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: the collapse makes the future different. If you don't believe

878
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 2: in collapse, because it's fundamentally nonsense, then your whole premise,

879
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: then the whole setup is flawed.

880
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 1: But I have to believe in collapse because I live

881
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: in a collapse world. Like when I'm talking to you,

882
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: I'm collapsing things. You don't know that, man grab my

883
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: steering wheel. My experience. Maybe there's a multiverse somebody else

884
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 1: does something else But to me, in this multiverse version,

885
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: there's collapse. It's a real thing. And so is there

886
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: a direction of time in my universe?

887
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 2: Well, if there's a multiverse, then the wave function doesn't collapse.

888
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 2: It splits in the many pieces. They're all part of

889
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 2: the same big universe wave function, but they can't interact

890
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: with each other, and that preserves the flow of quantum information.

891
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 2: All those things do happen, they're just sort of like

892
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 2: happening on top of each other in a way that

893
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: they can't interact with each other. It's the quantum multiverse.

894
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: So there is a scenario in which there is no

895
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: collapse and quantum information is not changed as time goes on.

896
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: Sure, if you're like a mega entity, then you can

897
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: see all the multiverse at the same time. But to me,

898
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: to us right now talking to each other, we live

899
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: in a collapse universe. This is our universe, and we

900
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: don't even know if there are other universes. So does

901
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: that mean that time does have a direction? Just make

902
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: it about me, Daniel, not the watcher who's watching the

903
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 1: multiverse from afar.

904
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 2: I think portions of the universe no longer have access

905
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: to the full information. That doesn't mean that time couldn't

906
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: flow backwards, right, the same physical process could still go

907
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: in the other direction.

908
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: Well, it could, But to us, to our understanding and

909
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: our experience of the universe, this is all the information

910
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: that we have, and you don't know if there's actually

911
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:58,280
Speaker 1: other information.

912
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't know that's true.

913
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 1: So we have to assume that this is maybe all

914
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: there is. This could be all that there is.

915
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: We don't have to assume that.

916
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: If you assume it is not all there is to

917
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: our experience of the universe. In this universe we live in,

918
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:13,439
Speaker 1: there is a direction of time.

919
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 2: If you don't have the full information, you might not

920
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 2: have enough information to reconstruct the past.

921
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so then is that what do you think

922
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: Trevor means by things moving backwards in time? Like, could

923
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: there be something moving in the opposite direction of this

924
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: direction of time?

925
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 2: I don't think that's what Trevor is asking about at all,

926
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 2: and he's probably wondering, like why these guys talking about

927
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,720
Speaker 2: quantum mechanics I was thinking about. So let's get to time.

928
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's get to this question. The question is

929
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: can something move backwards in time?

930
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah?

931
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: And would we notice you're the one who went into

932
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. I mean, or are we not answering the

933
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: question with quantum mechanics or are we no, we're not,

934
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 1: We're not so okay.

935
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 2: That was a stepping stone towards the concept of thermodynamics,

936
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: which builds up from the microscopic picture of quantum mechanics.

937
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 2: It says, zoom out from the tiny particles. Our experience

938
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 2: is not of tiny particles. It's of big things with

939
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 2: ten to the twenty nine or ten to the thirty particles.

940
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: And on that scale something else emerges, and it's called entropy.

941
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 2: You have lots of quantum particles interacting. You notice that

942
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: they tend to spread out over the possibilities, which is

943
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: another way basically saying entropy increases as time goes on.

944
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 2: And that's where our experience of time comes from. What

945
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 2: you were alluding to earlier. Like a bouncing ball bouncing

946
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: up and down, that's a lot of particles interacting. What

947
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 2: happens there is that energy tends to spread out, and

948
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: the ball loses some energy and it bounces lower and

949
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 2: lower as time goes on. So that video you could

950
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 2: definitely tell if something going forwards or backwards in time.

951
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: I see you're saying, let's not think about quantity physics.

952
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: Let's start think about a bouncing ball. And so maybe

953
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: in Trevor's question, something moving backwards in time is maybe

954
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: like a ball whose entropy to us seems to be decreasing.

955
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, there's a sort of a subtlety hear like,

956
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: take that ball that's bouncing and entropy is increasing. You

957
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 2: could all say, well, how do we know that ball

958
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 2: is not going backwards in time with decreasing entropy. You're like, well,

959
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: that's just sort of like definitional. Is it moving forwards

960
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 2: in time with its entropy increasing, or is it moving

961
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 2: backwards in time with its enterpy decreasing. It's basically the

962
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: same thing. I think what he's asking about. And the

963
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 2: original comment that inspired this is that we don't see

964
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 2: things moving forwards in time with their entropy decreasing, Like

965
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: we don't see coffee cups reassembling themselves, we don't see

966
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 2: ice freezing on the countertop. All these things would have

967
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 2: entropy decreasing, and that's what it would look like. It's

968
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 2: to see something moving backwards in time, because we would

969
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 2: be moving backwards in time with its entropy increasing. Backwards

970
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: in time, which to us would look like it's moving

971
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: forwards in time with its entropy decreasing.

972
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: So then the answer to the question is that if

973
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: something was moving backwards in time in our world, which

974
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: is moving forwards that you're saying, we would be able

975
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: to notice that it is moving backwards in time because

976
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: its entropy would be decreasing.

977
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't remember, but that probably happened in Tenant, right,

978
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: somebody moved backwards in time and dropped a coffee cup,

979
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 2: and to the people moving forwards in time, it looked

980
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: really weird because they saw a broken coffee cup jump

981
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 2: up off the floor and reassemble itself.

982
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, no, no, that's exactly. That's the trippy thing

983
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: about the movies that you see things sort of moving

984
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: in unnatural ways. Yes, which really to our brain is

985
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: like you're seeing entropy decrease, which we're not used to.

986
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, exactly, that's what it would look like to

987
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 2: see something move backwards in time.

988
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: Well, I feel like we answered the question, which is like,

989
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's all about entropy, but entropy is not

990
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 1: really kind of like a fundamental thing in the universe, right,

991
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: isn't it sort of like something that emerges from the

992
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: interaction of lots of things. Like at the quantum level,

993
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,439
Speaker 1: do you still have entropy and does it play a role?

994
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: Like let's say we go back to the idea of

995
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: looking at an electron, could you tell if an electron

996
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 1: was moving backwards in time?

997
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. We don't really understand how the air

998
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: of time emerges. But you're right, it's not something that's

999
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: fundamental to the universe. It's emergent. But you know, we

1000
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 2: don't really understand emergence either, like why do laws ever emerge?

1001
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 2: Why isn't everything just controlled by the tiny little objects

1002
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 2: and chaos rules? On top of that, we don't understand emergence.

1003
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 2: We don't understand how time emerges from quantum mechanics. We

1004
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: don't understand the importance of emergent things. There are some

1005
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: hints there and some clues maybe in particle physics, but

1006
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: fundamentally that's not an understood question. You can't even really ask,

1007
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 2: like what is entropy in quantum mechanics because entropy is

1008
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 2: about differences and how things are arranged in the macroscopic

1009
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 2: and the microscopic. You have to like define two levels

1010
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 2: of information even be talking about entropy.

1011
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: I wonder if then the answer to Trevor's question is, like,

1012
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: you can't do something's moving back to in time unless

1013
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: it's really small, or unless it's only one particle.

1014
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 2: No, from the one particle, you can't tell at all. Right,

1015
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 2: there is no sense of entropy for a single particle.

1016
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 1: That's what I mean. You can't tell. Like a ball,

1017
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 1: you could tell if it was moving backwards in time,

1018
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: but an individual electron you cannot.

1019
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right.

1020
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: So that's what you're saying, unless the multiverse doesn't exist.

1021
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

1022
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: All right. Well, do you think you need to go

1023
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 1: back in time and re answer this question?

1024
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: I think I want to go back in time and

1025
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 2: not bring up quantum mechanics.

1026
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: No, but it totally changes the answer, right, Like if

1027
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: you ignore quantum mechanics, and yes, you can tell something

1028
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: wing backwards in time. If you do things about quantum mechanics,

1029
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 1: then you can.

1030
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 4: No.

1031
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 2: I'm very glad we got into qutum mechanics. That's just you.

1032
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: I think you're always glad to get into quantum mechanics.

1033
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: He has a particle physics. I think the problem sometimes

1034
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: is giving you off of quantum mechanics.

1035
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally agree.

1036
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: It's a little interesting reversal here. It's like we went

1037
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: backwards in time. All right, Well, thanks to all of

1038
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: our questions askers today, really interesting questions.

1039
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 2: And if you have questions about how the universe works,

1040
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 2: please don't be shy right to me to questions at

1041
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: Daniel and Jorge dot com. You can address your questions

1042
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 2: to me, or to me and Jorge, or to anybody

1043
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: you like. You'll still get an answer from me.

1044
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, See

1045
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: you next time.

1046
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 2: For more science and curiosity. Come fine, get us on

1047
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 2: social media where we answer questions and post videos. We're

1048
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 2: on Twitter, Discord, Insta, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening

1049
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 2: and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is

1050
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,759
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1051
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