Speaker 1: So what's the deal with doula's everybody?
Speaker 2: That's my question to you on this wonderful Saturday morning.
Speaker 2: This one goes back to December twelfth, twenty seventeen. Doula's
Speaker 2: do great work. They're wonderful people, and they bring babies
Speaker 2: into the world. So I hope you enjoy the deal
Speaker 2: with doula's.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and
Speaker 3: there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there,
Speaker 3: and this is Stuff you Should Know, the podcast Childbirth Edition. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we are trapsing into more territory.
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I mean we've done two on you know, feeding babies,
Speaker 3: done female puberty. Yeah, this will get into childbirth, will
Speaker 3: little bit. So yeah, we're not afraid. I don't care. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1: You can be a male doula.
Speaker 4: You can.
Speaker 3: Although this is the only article I ran across that,
Speaker 3: and did you find anything about that anywhere else?
Speaker 1: I mean, it happens. It's just super rare. It happens.
Speaker 2: Because I mean, we'll go ahead and spoil it. Generally,
Speaker 2: doulas are well, let's just get into this.
Speaker 1: Generally, dula's are women who have already had a baby.
Speaker 2: Yes, not even just women, but women who have had
Speaker 2: a baby so they can really know how to help
Speaker 2: another lady have a baby.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is actually so, this is an ancient
Speaker 3: thing that's kind of come back around full circle. And
Speaker 3: even the name doula is a Greek term used way
Speaker 3: back in the classical Greek days when a woman giving
Speaker 3: birth would have female servants attending to her during birth,
Speaker 3: helping with it, probably feeding her some grapes, waving palm
Speaker 3: fronds on her, that kind of thing. So doula means
Speaker 3: female servant or female slave, depending on who you're talking about.
Speaker 4: Right, and after, you.
Speaker 3: Know, ancient Greece fell to Rome and the Roman Empire fell,
Speaker 3: and all of civilization took this weird course. Throughout it
Speaker 3: all women were helped by other women while they were
Speaker 3: giving birth. Basically up until about the first third, first
Speaker 3: half of the twentieth century in the West, where hospitals
Speaker 3: entered and all of a sudden, it was just the
Speaker 3: mom giving birth surrounded by a bunch of nurses and doctors.
Speaker 4: Is that true, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Because I could see scenarios where there were women in
Speaker 2: the birthroom helping along.
Speaker 3: I think once you started to get into hospital and
Speaker 3: the physicians in the hospital starting asserting their authority more
Speaker 3: and more, especially through drugs. Like I saw that when
Speaker 3: hospitals kind of took over the birthing process or took
Speaker 3: responsibility for it from the family and from midwives and
Speaker 3: moved it into the hospital. They used to administer a
Speaker 3: lot of sedatives as part of the birthing process, as
Speaker 3: part of labor.
Speaker 4: You know, you can.
Speaker 3: Understand why they would, but then there were all sorts
Speaker 3: of complications from it, problems from it, so they stopped giving.
Speaker 4: Sedatives as much.
Speaker 3: And about that time, women who were giving birth started
Speaker 3: to like kind of come out of it and look
Speaker 3: around and say, whoa, it's just me and you guys
Speaker 3: in here. I need some family members in here. And
Speaker 3: at the time, like if you were a dad, you
Speaker 3: were not in there, You were not in the.
Speaker 4: Delivery room at all.
Speaker 3: You were out in what was called the stork club,
Speaker 3: handing out cigars maybe pacing. And the reason why it
Speaker 3: was because to the doctors involved, it was just another
Speaker 3: medical procedure, right, so you're not going to have randos
Speaker 3: who have nothing to do with the actual procedure in
Speaker 3: the room during a procedure. They treated childbirth the same way,
Speaker 3: but women started to say, no, I need more than
Speaker 3: just you, people who I've never met before, really attending
Speaker 3: to the birth of my child, And so dads started
Speaker 3: to come in, and then more family members and then
Speaker 3: now doulas have definitely kind of come back like they
Speaker 3: were originally.
Speaker 4: That's my understanding of the whole thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so doula's, we haven't even said what that is yet,
Speaker 2: and that would probably help clear it up if you
Speaker 2: don't know. Dula's are people, like we said, generally women
Speaker 2: but not always who are childbirth coaches.
Speaker 1: They coach you through the process.
Speaker 2: They will, depending on the service they offer, will come
Speaker 2: on before obviously you give birth and kind of prep
Speaker 2: you for what's going to happen. And this I mean
Speaker 2: it kind of depends on when your doula will come
Speaker 2: aboard in the process, but at the very least they
Speaker 2: will help you in the delivery room and they are
Speaker 2: your advocate to kind of coach you through this whole thing.
Speaker 2: And that term actually started in an article in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty nine by a woman named Dana Raphael and then
Speaker 2: later on in a book in nineteen seventy three called
Speaker 2: The Tender Gift Breastfeeding. And that's when she brought this
Speaker 2: term back and said, you know, we're going to start
Speaker 2: calling these women doulas and it's going to be a
Speaker 2: real job, right.
Speaker 4: And I think at first, what was the name of
Speaker 4: the woman.
Speaker 1: Who brought it back, Dana Raphael.
Speaker 3: So she had like a pretty good idea that was
Speaker 3: actually ahead of its time. When doula's really started to
Speaker 3: come into use and come into their own as a
Speaker 3: profession was in the eighties. And the reason why they
Speaker 3: came into wider use was because hospitals were going to
Speaker 3: see sections a lot.
Speaker 4: Ce sections went up.
Speaker 3: From nineteen seventy four point two percent of live births
Speaker 3: in the US involved C sections. Teen years later, in
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty six, a quarter of live births.
Speaker 4: In the US involved C sections.
Speaker 3: And there are a lot of complications with C sections,
Speaker 3: and so you could have your husband in there, you
Speaker 3: could have your mom in there, you could have friends,
Speaker 3: but they're just there for you. One of the first
Speaker 3: services that doulas started offering was to say, whoa, whoa,
Speaker 3: Does she really need that C section? Are you sure
Speaker 3: about that or are you just doing it because you
Speaker 3: can charge more money. I think that was overstating exactly
Speaker 3: the interaction they had, but that was the role they had,
Speaker 3: was to basically provide a barrier between a doctor who
Speaker 3: wanted to just give a sea section because he wanted
Speaker 3: to go home and the mom who really didn't want
Speaker 3: a C section.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not just c sections.
Speaker 2: They're your advocate, they're your birth advocate to make sure
Speaker 2: or at least as best they can to try to
Speaker 2: ensure that the birth plan that you feel best about
Speaker 2: is the one that you end up with. Things always change,
Speaker 2: of course, and ADULO would never put you in danger
Speaker 2: by insisting on something.
Speaker 1: In fact, they can't.
Speaker 2: But they are there to speak for you on your
Speaker 2: behalf because as a mother in labor, you're going through
Speaker 2: a lot on your own. So it's nice to have
Speaker 2: someone that is just there to do that job.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and.
Speaker 3: Is coming from a place of empathy and sympathy and
Speaker 3: most importantly experienced. Like you said, most doulas have had
Speaker 3: children of their own, but they've also, after a while,
Speaker 3: attended other berths. Too, so they know what they're talking about,
Speaker 3: they know what to expect, and they can tell you
Speaker 3: what to expect, which can make the whole process easier,
Speaker 3: I would imagine for any mother giving birth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely gained popularity in the two thousands. I
Speaker 2: think I tried to find more recent statistics than twenty twelve,
Speaker 2: but I couldn't. But in twenty twelve there were six percent.
Speaker 2: And this is in the United States. It's very much
Speaker 2: happen all over the world some but it's sort of
Speaker 2: an American thing. Six percent of people in twenty twelve
Speaker 2: years to doula versus three percent in two thousand and six.
Speaker 2: And in that same survey, twenty seven percent of people
Speaker 2: said they would they would like to use a dula.
Speaker 2: So you know, at least they're they're wishing or hopeful
Speaker 2: that they can.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was question eight, would you like to use
Speaker 3: a doula? Yeah, twenty seven percent said And so if
Speaker 3: you get the impression that, like a a doctor would
Speaker 3: not really prefer a doula to be in the labor
Speaker 3: and delivery room, you've kind of read between the lines there.
Speaker 3: Especially at first, the medical community saw doulas as they
Speaker 3: were starting to really kind of come into use in
Speaker 3: the eighties as basically meddling busy bodies who could potentially
Speaker 3: put their patient's life in jeopardy.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: But then in nineteen ninety two, DULAS of North America
Speaker 3: was found at DONA. It's like the first DULA license body,
Speaker 3: certification and training and licensing body, and they were founded.
Speaker 3: It was founded by medical professionals, which kind of created
Speaker 3: a bridge. It bridged the gap or kind of got
Speaker 3: smoothed over the rough feelings between the medical community and
Speaker 3: the doula community. And it also added a real air
Speaker 3: of legitimacy to the profession of being a doula.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the impression I get now is that if
Speaker 2: you have a good doula who is good with people,
Speaker 2: which is ideally what your doula is, if your deal
Speaker 2: is not a people person, that's probably not going to
Speaker 2: be a good thing. But the idea I get is
Speaker 2: that doctors and nurses like having dulas there now because
Speaker 2: they can just concentrate on They don't have to be
Speaker 2: the ones providing emotional empathetic support, although they can still
Speaker 2: do death they want, they can just concentrate on the
Speaker 2: medical aspects of it. And they know that they have
Speaker 2: a trained, hopefully licensed dula, and we'll get into that
Speaker 2: later on hand to sort of say, you know what,
Speaker 2: I don't have to deal with that part of things.
Speaker 2: You're in good hands with this doula and I can
Speaker 2: just concentrate on the medical parts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, now, all love doula, that's right. One of the
Speaker 3: other reasons or functions that doulas provide you kind of
Speaker 3: hit on, is that they they provide a service that
Speaker 3: hospitals used to provide through nurses, right where if you
Speaker 3: had a nurse in a labor and delivery room, they
Speaker 3: wouldn't spend as much time or give you as much
Speaker 3: attention as, say, like your mom would or a friend
Speaker 3: or your husband even but they gave you a lot
Speaker 3: more early on than they did. As surveillance of patients
Speaker 3: moved to electronics right to where somebody could just kind
Speaker 3: of sit at the nurses station and check on everybody
Speaker 3: and they didn't have to.
Speaker 4: Go into the rooms.
Speaker 3: And now you nurses were charged with watching even more
Speaker 3: people at once, right, So the personal attention dropped dramatic
Speaker 3: as electronic surveillance of patients increased, and the dula's kind
Speaker 3: of came in to fill that role as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they're sitting in the room with you and
Speaker 2: hanging out. They don't get called in like twenty minutes
Speaker 2: before you give birth. They're with you, you know, sometimes
Speaker 2: days and weeks before hand, coaching you and what to
Speaker 2: expect and how you're going to go about this and
Speaker 2: what your plan is. And then on the day, like
Speaker 2: even if dad is in there and the husband is
Speaker 2: in there providing support, that's great, But the dula is
Speaker 2: just that extra step and that extra measure of support
Speaker 2: that is super knowledgeable about what it's going to be like,
Speaker 2: where the husband might not exactly you know, be able
Speaker 2: to lend the most insightful ear there, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. Yeah, so you want to take a break.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's take a break and then we'll come back
Speaker 3: and talk about what to expect when you're expecting to
Speaker 3: work with a doula.
Speaker 1: Saish all right, So.
Speaker 2: Here's a misconception some people get. Some people think that
Speaker 2: doulas are authorized or trained to give birth.
Speaker 1: That is not true.
Speaker 2: They don't deliver babies, they don't perform any sort of
Speaker 2: medical procedures. They don't put an IV in your arm,
Speaker 2: They don't work the heart rate monitor. Most times, they
Speaker 2: don't even work for the hospital. You have hired them independently,
Speaker 2: and again they're just there to coach you. They're not
Speaker 2: even midwives. Midwives can deliver a baby.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, they're not allowed anywhere near the medical stuff,
Speaker 3: but they need to know what the medical stuff is
Speaker 3: so that they can say, well, this is what they're
Speaker 3: about to do, or this is what they're suggesting right now,
Speaker 3: and here are your options. And then also when they're
Speaker 3: administering the medical stuff, which can be pretty uncomfortable pretty frequently,
Speaker 3: I would imagine the duela is there to kind of
Speaker 3: tell the mom what to expect and the comforter her
Speaker 3: in all sorts of ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe not even offer advice, like I think
Speaker 2: the idea is that adula will lay it all out
Speaker 2: there so you can make an informed decision and not
Speaker 2: necessarily say well, if I were you, this is what
Speaker 2: I would do.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's a slippery slope right there, because then
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, if things go wrong, you can say, well,
Speaker 3: the DULA told me to do that, and the dula
Speaker 3: is like, I'm toast.
Speaker 2: Duelas have to be great listeners. We already talked about
Speaker 2: the empathy piece. They have to be very empathetic and
Speaker 2: they will, like I said, start meeting before birth to
Speaker 2: answer any kind of questions, come up with that birth plan,
Speaker 2: and really listen a lot to the wife and the
Speaker 2: husband so everybody is on the same page. And like
Speaker 2: I said, on the day, things can change. But going
Speaker 2: in you generally want to have a pretty good idea
Speaker 2: of everything from medications you might want to use, if any.
Speaker 1: To where you want to have the baby.
Speaker 2: The dula can come on board and kind of explain
Speaker 2: if they're knowledgeable, which hopefully they are, about the hospitals
Speaker 2: around you, and maybe even help you pick out where
Speaker 2: you're going to give birth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean, if you already have an idea
Speaker 3: of what you want, the doula can, you know, kind
Speaker 3: of tell you how to make that happen. Or if
Speaker 3: you have no idea what you want, the doula can
Speaker 3: also tell you some other alternatives that you might not
Speaker 3: have thought of. And I saw a Parent's magazine article
Speaker 3: about doula's They laid out what basically what you can
Speaker 3: expect from the average doula for the doula's fees one
Speaker 3: to two in person pre natal visits and then access
Speaker 3: to the doula for follow up questions through email or
Speaker 3: or phone calls. They're full attention and presence during your
Speaker 3: labor and then sometimes frequently I get the idea a
Speaker 3: follow up visit in at your house after the baby
Speaker 3: comes home. That typically if you hire a doula, this
Speaker 3: is this is about the average you can expect to them.
Speaker 3: There's definitely a lot of differences. There's some will give
Speaker 3: you a little more, some will give you a little less,
Speaker 3: some will charge more, some will do it for free.
Speaker 3: It's just all over the place as far as you
Speaker 3: know what you're actually going to shell out and what
Speaker 3: you're going to get from a doula. But for the
Speaker 3: most part, you the dula is going to have met
Speaker 3: you before you give birth, and then the doula will
Speaker 3: be there throughout the whole labor and delivery process.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it says in this article that there are
Speaker 2: specialist dulas like antipartum doulas and postpartum doulas and labor doulas.
Speaker 2: That if you want an antipartum doula to be if
Speaker 2: you want more than those two meetings, you might want
Speaker 2: to hire someone who will be with you for several
Speaker 2: weeks beforehand, or if you want someone postpartum to be
Speaker 2: with you to coach you through breastfeeding or you know,
Speaker 2: changing diapers or just any of that kind of coaching,
Speaker 2: you can hire someone to do that. But I get
Speaker 2: the sense that doula's generally will sort of work with
Speaker 2: you on whatever kind of plan you want.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: It may may cost a little extra, but I get
Speaker 2: the sense of adula wouldn't say like, Nope, you get
Speaker 2: two meetings and that's it. They might be like, no,
Speaker 2: I'll come in for a third and fourth meeting. It'll
Speaker 2: be an extra of this much money, and I can
Speaker 2: hang with you for a week or two afterward.
Speaker 3: Here and there I found I think it was through
Speaker 3: a BuzzFeed article. I stumbled upon a there's a huge
Speaker 3: rift in the doula community actually between the typical traditional approach.
Speaker 4: To being a doula, which is.
Speaker 3: I'll work with you on a sliding scale for how
Speaker 3: much you can afford, or this is my fee, but
Speaker 3: I'll throw in an extra visit just to you know,
Speaker 3: make you feel like you're getting your money's worth.
Speaker 4: Or I'll do it for free.
Speaker 3: I just want to help you, because Donah's mission is
Speaker 3: that a doula for every every mother who wants one,
Speaker 3: Like every mother should have a doula basically, right. And
Speaker 3: then there's this other group called pro doula and there
Speaker 3: they can't stand doulas who who charge less than like
Speaker 3: a decent amount for their services or do it for free.
Speaker 3: They actually call dulas who do this for free oxytocin vampires,
Speaker 3: like they're just there to to bask in the reflective
Speaker 3: glow of this this amazing experience that the mother just
Speaker 3: went through, the parents just went through.
Speaker 4: And they're really kind of.
Speaker 3: Kicking other doulas around and they're kind of bullies. It's
Speaker 3: in a really weird way. But there's like the big
Speaker 3: debate over whether doulas are undervalued or underselling themselves.
Speaker 4: But I mean, I definitely get.
Speaker 3: The idea that every woman who wants to have a
Speaker 3: doula should be able to have a dula regardless of
Speaker 3: her income.
Speaker 4: You know. Yeah, that makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: Like a pro bono for people that don't have as
Speaker 1: much money.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: On the other hand, I also get that if you
Speaker 3: are a doula and you're doing your job really well, then.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you should expect to be paid. I think there's
Speaker 4: a happy medium.
Speaker 3: I don't think has to be like, Nope, this is
Speaker 3: the price, and anybody who goes underneath it should be
Speaker 3: ostracized from the doula community.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The other thing about doula's another misconception a lot of
Speaker 2: people think is that it's just some hippie dippy thing
Speaker 2: that if you don't want to if you only want
Speaker 2: to have like a natural childbirth, then you get the
Speaker 2: doula in there, and that they're not there for anything
Speaker 2: other than that.
Speaker 1: And that's not the case.
Speaker 2: They are there to support you in whatever kind of
Speaker 2: birth you want to have, whether it's a home birth
Speaker 2: or water birth, or whether or not you want to
Speaker 2: get an epidural or be loaded up on every pharmaceutical
Speaker 2: they offer mothers in labor. Uh, they're there just to
Speaker 2: have knowledge of all that stuff, so you know what
Speaker 2: you're getting into.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then so during labor, this is where this is
Speaker 3: where the doodless shines.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: They're there to help with alternatives to pain treatment.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: So again, they can't administer any kind of drugs or anything.
Speaker 3: I would guess that they could even get in trouble
Speaker 3: for giving you an advil, but they can do other things,
Speaker 3: like they can massage you in ways that you had
Speaker 3: not ever heard of before that helps with labor pains.
Speaker 3: I came across this one technique where they pull on
Speaker 3: a couple of toes, specific toes, and it helps actually
Speaker 3: move the labor along if you're if you have a
Speaker 3: slow labor. There's kneading techniques, there's stroking techniques, pressure on
Speaker 3: the bottom of your feet, There's all sorts of stuff
Speaker 3: they can do at various times throughout the labor and
Speaker 3: delivery process. They can help alleviate the pain that you're
Speaker 3: going through, and that's one of the big roles that
Speaker 3: they played during labor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when my kid was born, I was shocked at
Speaker 2: how many people were in the room.
Speaker 3: First of all, how many oh Man Baker's dozen, I
Speaker 3: mean twenty.
Speaker 1: Emily and I birth mom.
Speaker 2: Obviously our adoption counselor who was a licensed dulist, so
Speaker 2: she really served that function for the birth mom, which.
Speaker 1: Was really a great great plus. The doctor, I guess.
Speaker 2: I'm not even sure what the roles are, what their
Speaker 2: technical titles are, but the doctor came in when it
Speaker 2: was go time and basically just checked things out and said, well,
Speaker 2: I think it's go time. And then he stepped out
Speaker 2: of the way and these two nurses came in there,
Speaker 2: and ninety seconds later there was a baby, so it
Speaker 2: was and those were so it was two nurses that
Speaker 2: that was probably like, there's probably at least twelve people
Speaker 2: in that room.
Speaker 4: Wow, that's a lot of people.
Speaker 2: It was crowded and fast and surreal and weird and amazing.
Speaker 4: Even weirder, they brought in.
Speaker 1: Carrot Top to cut the cord, but no, Emily cut
Speaker 1: the cord.
Speaker 4: Okay, cool.
Speaker 2: Emily actually helped sort of deliver in a way, because
Speaker 2: you know, they like to bring in I guess you know,
Speaker 2: in a in a regular biological birth, that would be
Speaker 2: the husband probably in there saying.
Speaker 1: Hey, do you want to help hold the legs or
Speaker 1: do whatever.
Speaker 2: In this case, it was Emily and I just took
Speaker 2: a respectful position by the birth mom's head right, sort
Speaker 2: of looking looking down that way. I was like, you know,
Speaker 2: she was She was like, you can go wherever you
Speaker 2: want to go. But I was like, you know, I'll
Speaker 2: just hang right.
Speaker 4: Here, right, And Emily's like that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I wanted to be there, and you
Speaker 2: know I was. I was helping support her as well, uh,
Speaker 2: holding her hand and patting her on the head and
Speaker 2: all that all that nice stuff.
Speaker 4: That's cool, man, Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was amazing.
Speaker 3: Did I ever tell you the story for when my
Speaker 3: niece Mila was born and my sister in law was
Speaker 3: giving birth and she let everybody in the in the
Speaker 3: labor room.
Speaker 1: I was surprised, you can have a party in there.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And when she really was going into into she was delivering.
Speaker 3: I stood back behind this curtain, right and the doctor
Speaker 3: comes in and walks past me and kind of gives
Speaker 3: me a nod, and I hear him go to the crowd.
Speaker 3: He's like, you know, there's like some guy standing behind
Speaker 3: that curtain right, Like, yeah, he's supposed to be there.
Speaker 4: It was pretty bud.
Speaker 1: He's the He's the ward creeper.
Speaker 4: Right exactly. I'm like, Okay, I've heard enough here.
Speaker 3: I'm going to the next room.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's take another break.
Speaker 2: Now that we've shared our stories, we'll come back and
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about how you become a doula.
Speaker 3: Right for this, all right, Chuck, So, if you wanted
Speaker 3: to become a doula, basically, you start in training. At
Speaker 3: age three, you're sent off to Europe to apprentice at
Speaker 3: the one DULA school in the world and they make
Speaker 3: you eat a lot of magic cake. And then when
Speaker 3: you're sixty you get to actually start out on your own.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, before you decide to become adula, you need
Speaker 2: to give a lot of thought on what you're going
Speaker 2: to be getting into. You know, the hours are long
Speaker 2: at birth job. Birth is very stressful, and especially if
Speaker 2: there are complications, that can be super stressful in a
Speaker 2: matter of life or death. So you've got to be
Speaker 2: able to deal with that stuff in the moment and
Speaker 2: hang in there and be the birth coach that mom needs,
Speaker 2: you know, in the most stressful of situations. But then
Speaker 2: on the plus side, you get to see little bebies
Speaker 2: coming out on the rag and what's better than that,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: I can't think of too many things talk about an
Speaker 3: oxytocin hit maybe magic cake, magic cake.
Speaker 1: You do you not have to have a college degree.
Speaker 2: You don't have to have a high school degree.
Speaker 4: You you don't even have to be certified. It's not
Speaker 4: law that you have to be certified.
Speaker 2: Yeah you don't, but it is there are more and
Speaker 2: more programs now and more certification and licensing programs out there.
Speaker 2: So if you want to be a duela, my advice
Speaker 2: is to go that route. You probably just get more
Speaker 2: work that way.
Speaker 3: Right, So when you're when you're starting out, you would
Speaker 3: go to if you wanted to get certified, you would
Speaker 3: go to one of the certifying bodies like DONA or
Speaker 3: what are what are the other two that are mentioned
Speaker 3: in here. There's one called c Appa Kappa Sure and
Speaker 3: then the American Pregnancy Association. All three of those certify
Speaker 3: and train doulas. Don't, from what I could tell, is
Speaker 3: the oldest. Obviously, it was the first one and it
Speaker 3: seems to be the most respected. But I would guess
Speaker 3: if you get your training from any of those three,
Speaker 3: you're probably doing pretty good. They'll offer online classes, in
Speaker 3: person classes, self pace study.
Speaker 4: And.
Speaker 3: You typically need to go take a birthing class, a
Speaker 3: breastfeeding class because again you need to know, like you
Speaker 3: need to be current on all the stuff that's going
Speaker 3: on with labor and delivery. Right, if you took these
Speaker 3: classes ten years ago and then did it again today,
Speaker 3: you would probably find some real differences in new stuff
Speaker 3: that's been discovered in the last ten years, so you
Speaker 3: would need to be pretty current, even if you've had kids.
Speaker 4: Of your own before.
Speaker 3: Sure, and then you also need to attend at least
Speaker 3: one I have the impression that multiple berths under the
Speaker 3: apprenticeship of another doula who's already certified or trained or
Speaker 3: experienced before you really go off on your own to
Speaker 3: become certified.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's just I would I would say, how
Speaker 3: many berths have you been a part of, you know,
Speaker 3: already before I hired a doula. That's a pretty big
Speaker 3: question if you ask me, so they would want to say, well,
Speaker 3: I've been you know, I've assisted in like three or
Speaker 3: five or however many.
Speaker 4: But you're going to be my first solo.
Speaker 1: Your perst solo flight.
Speaker 4: Yep, you will.
Speaker 2: It depends on where you live, on how much you're
Speaker 2: going to pay. If you if you live in a
Speaker 2: big fancy city like New York City, you're gonna be
Speaker 2: paying top dollar for your doula. If you live in
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, canna be paying top dollar for your doula.
Speaker 4: I saw like thirty five hundred at least for each
Speaker 4: of those cities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that that scale can go all the way
Speaker 2: down to zero. Well, sure, all the way to zero,
Speaker 2: but if you were paying a doula, that number can
Speaker 2: go all the way down to six hundred to eight hundred,
Speaker 2: one thousand dollars and you know in the fly ower states, right.
Speaker 3: But again, I mean like, if if this is the
Speaker 3: doula's first time on their own, you're probably not going
Speaker 3: to be paying top dollar. And if you say, look,
Speaker 3: I really really really want to have a doula at
Speaker 3: my at my child's birth, but I really genuinely don't
Speaker 3: have this money. I actually got a lift once from
Speaker 3: a doula and she was talking about having to deal
Speaker 3: with this family who clearly was very well off but
Speaker 3: was pleading poverty. And she was like, I'm the one
Speaker 3: who's a doula and driving a lift here, and these
Speaker 3: guys are trying to like short change me.
Speaker 4: Interesting, so she said she told them no.
Speaker 3: She said she tried to work with them, but they
Speaker 3: wouldn't they wouldn't budge about whatever they thought her services.
Speaker 4: Were worth, so she had to just walk on.
Speaker 2: But why would a family that's well off not paid
Speaker 2: eight hundred dollars.
Speaker 3: I don't know, because I remember thinking like Wow, that's
Speaker 3: that's all it costs for a doula. She might have
Speaker 3: even been quoting them less than eight hundred dollars. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so there is definitely like there seems to be a
Speaker 3: tension between the desire to have a doula and the
Speaker 3: sense of non obligation to pay a doula a decent wage,
Speaker 3: which I think is where.
Speaker 4: That pro doula group pulls their hair out right.
Speaker 2: You know, well, you may get it covered by insurance.
Speaker 2: There are more and more cases in insurance companies that
Speaker 2: will let something like this be covered. But it never
Speaker 2: hurts to ask. This article points out you can. You
Speaker 2: can always ask, You can always file a claim and
Speaker 2: just see if you'll get a little assistance there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you live in Oregon and Minnesota, though, Medicaid
Speaker 3: will reimburse your full doula expenses for a certified doula,
Speaker 3: which is pretty awesome. Like, that's huge in groundbreaking that
Speaker 3: those two states have that for sure. The reason why
Speaker 3: they would pay anything for a doula rather than just
Speaker 3: being like just burn some sage or something and you know,
Speaker 3: spend five bucks, is because there has been studies about
Speaker 3: doulas and they have come out quite positive in some
Speaker 3: pretty good peer reviewed studies in peer reviewed journals.
Speaker 4: Right, have you seen any of this?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I saw the one fifteen thousand people. That's
Speaker 2: a pretty decent study size.
Speaker 1: And they said.
Speaker 2: In the study size, there were some women who had
Speaker 2: dulas and some women who did not have dulas or
Speaker 2: any kind of support like that. And then outcomes for
Speaker 2: women with continuous support were better than those without, meaning
Speaker 2: their labors were shorter by about forty minutes on average.
Speaker 2: Their babies had higher Appgar scores. Which Appgar are these
Speaker 2: tests they give your baby, Like the first thing your
Speaker 2: kid has to.
Speaker 1: Do, take a test.
Speaker 2: No seconds later they're given your kid their first test.
Speaker 4: Yeah, activity, pulse, grimace, appearance, and respiration.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so higher Appcar scores, fewer negative feelings about childbirth,
Speaker 2: like this is the emotional component. They required, less pain medication,
Speaker 2: fewer uses of forceps or vacuum assisted interventions see sections.
Speaker 1: Across the board, dula's helped.
Speaker 2: And what was really interesting was there was basically nothing
Speaker 2: that could point at that said having a DULA was
Speaker 2: a negative in any way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and even when they look just at doulas rather
Speaker 3: than just all types of continuous support just at dula's.
Speaker 4: The dula's they held up too.
Speaker 3: There was less use of pitocin, less sea section, more
Speaker 3: spontaneous vaginal deliveries, less of a risk of being admitted
Speaker 3: to a special care nursery, four times less likely in
Speaker 3: one study to have a low birth weight child, two
Speaker 3: times less likely to have complications, and they were significantly
Speaker 3: more likely to initiate breastfeeding when cared for by ADULA. Right,
Speaker 3: So there's all these like like demonstrably positive outcomes, and
Speaker 3: then you hit upon the other thing too, that they
Speaker 3: they make the harsh hospital environment. There's something called harsh environment.
Speaker 4: Theory, where the bright lights.
Speaker 3: And the people you don't know coming in and out
Speaker 3: and treating you like a piece of meat that they
Speaker 3: need to get this thing out of that it can
Speaker 3: actually produce a traumatic experience. I suspect in more women
Speaker 3: than you would think, having birth or giving birth in
Speaker 3: a hospital is kind of traumatic, and for some women,
Speaker 3: from what I read, it's like deeply traumatic. And that's
Speaker 3: been a huge reason that doulas have really come into
Speaker 3: use lately. It is because they mellow everything out for
Speaker 3: you a lot more. And there's actually I read there's
Speaker 3: a group of renegade dulas who are acting as midwives
Speaker 3: out in the pot growing country of northern California.
Speaker 1: What's the relationship there to the pot growing.
Speaker 3: I would guess they probably do both. They grow the
Speaker 3: pot and deliver the babies nice. I think it's kind
Speaker 3: of like a whole back to the earth, to hell
Speaker 3: with the man's establishment hospitals. Apparently it's illegal to give
Speaker 3: birth like this without like a certified someone from the
Speaker 3: medical community being there to assist in the delivery, saying.
Speaker 3: They're saying nuts to that, which I would guess is
Speaker 3: pretty dangerous but also illegal. And if there's anything that
Speaker 3: screams Northern California more than dangerous and illegal, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to use a doula, and I'm
Speaker 2: officially endorsing this, I say, don't say don't to say doula.
Speaker 1: Sorry, it couldn't resist on that one.
Speaker 4: It was worth it.
Speaker 1: You just get online. You know, the doulas are easy
Speaker 1: to find in your area.
Speaker 2: Do a little Google search and get a reference, of
Speaker 2: personal reference if you can, would be great. Get online,
Speaker 2: find a friend who has used to do they can recommend.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's really the best way. I don't know
Speaker 2: if I'd go on Yelp or anything like that or
Speaker 2: Angie's List, although maybe who knows. But it's better if
Speaker 2: a good friend says, hey, I use this doula and she's.
Speaker 4: Great, I think.
Speaker 3: Also, the certifying bodies have directories of certified dulas in
Speaker 3: areas too.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, you want it to be a good personality
Speaker 2: match too, So you should talk to your dula on
Speaker 2: the phone at the very least, but ideally have a
Speaker 2: little in person meeting to make sure, like, is this
Speaker 2: someone I want to I want to jump into the
Speaker 2: foxhole with because they're going to be around a lot,
Speaker 2: you know, and you have to have a good personality
Speaker 2: match there.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and your husband or co parent needs to like
Speaker 3: them too. You don't want weird tension between those two
Speaker 3: in the delivery room.
Speaker 4: True. They need to fit into your jam.
Speaker 3: Pretty well, yeah, or else it's just going to be
Speaker 3: Especially if you're one of those people who can't stand conflict,
Speaker 3: that would be awful.
Speaker 4: To have a doula who.
Speaker 3: Your husband or co parent or wife or whoever doesn't
Speaker 3: like and butts heads within the delivery room. That would
Speaker 3: just be bad. And then you have to pay them afterward.
Speaker 3: That would just be terrible. So yeah, you want to
Speaker 3: vet them pretty well ahead of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and while you while ADULA is there to support you.
Speaker 2: So while they may have their own opinions on what
Speaker 2: they might do in a given situation, their childbirth philosophy
Speaker 2: is your childbirth philosophy is a mom is what matters, right,
Speaker 2: you know, So a good DULA will get on board
Speaker 2: with that, or if they aren't on board with that,
Speaker 2: then they probably shouldn't be working with you.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I could see them being like, look, I
Speaker 3: can recommend a couple of other people who are more
Speaker 3: in line with what you're looking for them me, you know, yeah, instead.
Speaker 4: Of wrong wrong wrong, This is all wrong. This is
Speaker 4: how we're going to do it.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 4: You got anything else on dula's just.
Speaker 2: This little bit on death doulas. We may have covered
Speaker 2: this in our Jeez in our Dying episode.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Speaker 1: I feel like we've talked about it. But it is
Speaker 1: a job.
Speaker 2: If you want to help a family or a person
Speaker 2: or both through end of life care, there are people
Speaker 2: you can hire just to do that, and it's not
Speaker 2: the same as they can work in concert with hospice care.
Speaker 2: But it's not like a hospice nurse. It's someone just
Speaker 2: like a birth doula who is there to really just
Speaker 2: emotionally kind of coach you through through the dying process
Speaker 2: with a family member.
Speaker 3: And also to very concretely hold your hand, make.
Speaker 4: Sure you're comfortable.
Speaker 3: Yeah, move you around a little bit, listen to you talk,
Speaker 3: tell you stories, whatever you're looking for to make the
Speaker 3: whole thing better. That's right, pretty neat. Up with Doula's Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'll put Dula's agreed. If you want to know more
Speaker 3: about Up with Dula's this new organization that Chuck and
Speaker 3: I just now founded, you can.
Speaker 4: I'll just wait a little while.
Speaker 3: We need to get to work on the website, and
Speaker 3: in the meantime, let's listen to some listener mail.
Speaker 2: All right, I'm going to call this flu shot clarification
Speaker 2: because that's what the subject line says. Okay, hey guys,
Speaker 2: Avid listener wanted to comment on the flu episode. I'm
Speaker 2: a graduate student and a few months away from completing
Speaker 2: my degree to becoming a physician's assistant. Well never mind, then, buddy,
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear it.
Speaker 1: No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time seeing patients answering questions
Speaker 2: about things like flu shots and who should receive them.
Speaker 2: The CDC now recommends that everyone over the age of
Speaker 2: six months receives a flu shot, even those who are
Speaker 2: perfectly healthy, even those who are allergic to eggs.
Speaker 4: They're cuckoo for flu shots.
Speaker 1: The new flu shots are now being designed to.
Speaker 2: Be egg free, so they're egg free, gluten free, what else?
Speaker 1: Dare free?
Speaker 4: They contained ten percent en wah, and.
Speaker 2: There's no evidence to suggest flu shots in recent years
Speaker 2: could cause reaction in those allergic to eggs.
Speaker 1: All right, that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Did not know that He said the benefits of the
Speaker 2: flu shots far outweighed the risk in his opinion. This, guys, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it sounds like it's an informed opinion at the
Speaker 2: very least.
Speaker 4: Sure.
Speaker 2: So that is from Devon from phil Philadelphia, Go Eagles.
Speaker 1: He thinks, So really, yeah, I mean why not? They're
Speaker 1: doing great?
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, thanks a lot, Devin. I appreciate writing in.
Speaker 3: That was nice of you. And if you out there
Speaker 3: want to be like Devin, you can hang out with
Speaker 3: us on email at stuff podcast at houstuffworks dot com
Speaker 3: and as always, joined us at our home on the web,
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know dot Com.
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