1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'sha. I was a 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. 11 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 3: We now returned with part two of our interview with 12 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 3: author and Policerprise within the journalist Tim Wyner. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 4: You guys spent decades of your life at CIA, and 14 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 4: you were there when Porter Goss came in in two 15 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 4: thousand and four. The President was not happy with CIA 16 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 4: for several reasons. The invasion of Iraq, which CI contributed to, 17 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 4: might stay with faulty analysis of saddamis Arsenal alb A. 18 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 4: Bush was going to invade iraqany way, you know, if 19 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 4: they had a paper clip and a rubber band to 20 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 4: put your eye out right, And he wanted Porter Goss, 21 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 4: who was the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and 22 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 4: a former CIA officer, to come in there and basically 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 4: clean house and impose loyalty oaths and ideological tests on people. 24 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 4: And what happened next The leadership of the Clandestine Service 25 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 4: headed for the parking Lot ads did the top analysis, 26 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 4: and the whole place was in turmoil. Mike Morell, who 27 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 4: spent thirty three years at the CIA and Weiss deputy 28 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 4: director twice acting director, said it was the worst nineteen 29 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 4: months of his thirty three year career. 30 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 2: What some people may not realize is that Porter Goss 31 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 2: came in. 32 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 4: Well. 33 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: First of all, he didn't want to work hard. He 34 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: complained publicly that he had to put in more than 35 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: eight hours and had to work on weekends, harder than 36 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: I thought it would be. That's right, this is hard. Tenants, 37 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 2: say what you will. He worked seven days a week, 38 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: of course, seventeen hours a day. But Porter Goss brought 39 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: in what we called on the inside, the Goslings. And 40 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: these were a group of disgruntled form agency officers, almost 41 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: all of whom had been fired or let go for cause, 42 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: with chips on their shoulder, who thought things were easy 43 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: and simple and black and white. They had been his 44 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: staff at the House Intelligence Committee. And this was like 45 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: seei's a great plane, Like, let's fire these guys because 46 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: they're incompetent. But they're all good. They still keep their 47 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: clearances and they're all going to go work for Congress 48 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: and be our bosses. And then they came back and yeah, 49 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: that didn't work out. 50 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 4: Now, But the key here, I think is not the 51 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 4: Goslings or personality disputes or anything like that. Ordered Goss's 52 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 4: marching orders from the President of the United States, where 53 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 4: I want loyalty. I need the CI to fall into line, 54 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 4: and I don't want any analysts criticizing the course of 55 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 4: the war in Iraq. And people were leaking, It's true, 56 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 4: but every ship of state leaks from the top, and 57 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 4: it didn't go well. And the one thing we know 58 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 4: about Donald Trump is that he wants loyalty like a 59 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 4: mob boss. What's going to happen would you say, based 60 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 4: on your decades of experience, if a new director comes 61 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 4: in at CIA and starts saying, I want you, I 62 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 4: need you to sign an loyal I'm going to impose 63 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 4: ideological betting on you people, and are you modo or not? 64 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 4: What's going to happen. 65 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: If that happens at DoD or in the intelligence community, 66 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: it just we take very seriously our focus on the mission, 67 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 1: our focus, and we take it oath to the Constitution. 68 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: We're not loyal to individuals, and in fact, we take 69 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: great pride in providing truth to power, which sometimes means 70 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: telling them stuff they don't want to hear. So this 71 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: is it goes just against every part of our culture. 72 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: CIA at its best is when we do our job, 73 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: we try to find the truth and we provide it 74 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: to policy makers. We're at our worst when we become 75 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: an instrument of policy that we do specifically what the 76 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: President says, irregardless of what the laws are or what's ethical. 77 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: Where we've done it worse it things like around contrary. Well, 78 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: actually CA may have done all right by refusing to 79 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: get involved in it. Where we've done our worst is 80 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: when Higgs, when we were told to do these things, 81 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: and we take the hit, not the guy who orders it. 82 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 4: But two things here. When I was brand new on 83 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 4: the CI, I went to learn at the feet of 84 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 4: Richard Helms, who was the gray eminence of American intelligence 85 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 4: at the time. Mike Holder joined the CI as a 86 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 4: charter member in forty seven and its director from sixty 87 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 4: six to seventy three. Until Nixon fired him for refusing 88 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 4: to help him cover up the Watergate breaking. And one 89 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 4: of the things Helms told me about CI was if 90 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 4: we are not believed by the President of the United States, 91 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 4: if we are not believed, we have no purpose. People 92 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 4: run great risks to dig up secrets of state, analysts 93 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 4: work hard to figure out the big picture, and all 94 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 4: of this goes into reporting that the president on not 95 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 4: only the present day, but threats over the horizon. One 96 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 4: of the things that we know about Donald Trump is 97 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 4: that one, he never took intelligence briefings very seriously. Two, 98 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 4: he's an ideologue, and ideology is the enemy of intelligence. 99 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 4: If you're an ideologue, your mind is made up. My fear, guys, 100 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 4: is that people are really going to head for the exits. 101 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 4: And the last time that happened, like in a major way, 102 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 4: not just people on the seventh floor, but throughout the 103 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 4: rank was in the nineties after the Cold War was over. 104 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 4: You guys were young and coming up in the nineties, 105 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 4: The guys with fifteen twenty twenty five years in were 106 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 4: headed out because they were like, Okay, mission accomplished. We 107 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 4: beat the goddamn Russians. Cold War's over. I'm done. People 108 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 4: will leave now because they feel they cannot accomplish the 109 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 4: mission under this president, whether it's analytical or operational, and 110 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 4: the ranks will be depleted. And the depletion of the 111 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 4: CIA during the decade of the nineties was one of 112 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 4: the proximate reasons for the success of al Qaeda's attack 113 00:05:58,880 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 4: on nine to eleven. 114 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: I share your concern, certainly, having been there caring about 115 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: it too. But one thing to add to the helms thing, 116 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: just a little nuance, is I think it is true 117 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: if the president isn't interested in what the CIA has 118 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: to say, what is the purpose. But the one thing 119 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: I've learned from working in CIA, and I suspect under 120 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: Trump it was very much like this at least Trump won, 121 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: is we provide intelligence not just to the President, but 122 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: to the Secretary of State, ambassadors around the world, to 123 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: people in the Pentagon generals. So there is a process 124 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: there that kept going even if Trump was in La 125 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: La Land or not interested in issues. We continue to 126 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: provide information on what was happening in Russia. 127 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 4: And then you what does the station chief do when 128 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 4: the ambassador is an idiot or convicted fellas herschall walkers, 129 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 4: Herschel Walker, a convicted felon. That's in the case of 130 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 4: Jared Kushner's father, who's going to France or just a bosa. Furthermore, 131 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 4: what does the CI do with the Director of National Intelligence? 132 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: I can answer that one for you, because you, as 133 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: a journalist, rightly hold the CIA to high standards and 134 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: therefore when we make mistakes. But the CIA, in a 135 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: genius move, created this thing called the DNI, which is 136 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: a fake organization to protect the CIA. 137 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 4: So John in Fairnessress created the di Congress. 138 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: Oh please, Congress wouldn't know. It's we manipulated Congress to 139 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: create this thing so that when they can put the 140 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: morons over there and they can do almost no damage 141 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: to what's actually happening in the CIA. 142 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 4: Now that is a conspiracy theory right there. There you go. No, 143 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 4: but okay, but in serious Chelsea Gabbard is the titular 144 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 4: head of the American intelligence community. God forbid, correct me 145 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 4: if I'm wrong. But CIA relies to a largely unappreciated 146 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 4: extent on liaison and intelligence sharing with friendly and not 147 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 4: so friendly intelligence services around the world, in countries you 148 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 4: might immediately think of, and some countries you couldn't possibly 149 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 4: imagine fair statement. 150 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: Yes, we get in the clandestine service side of the organization, 151 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: we get the bulk of our intelligence from partners and 152 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: not just allies, from partners around the world. Now it's 153 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: different with the NSA. It's going to be harder for 154 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: the NSA because it's much more integrated with the Brits 155 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: and Australians and stuff. Where I think you're going you're 156 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: saying is some of these organizations that partners we deal with, 157 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: they are going to be hesitant to share their secrets 158 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: with us, and I agree with that, but it's going 159 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: to be harder for them on the SINGANT side because 160 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: they're integrated. 161 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 4: Is great stuff. But human intelligence, when it succeeds, gets 162 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 4: you the information that Singant cannot. Ten analysts can listen 163 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 4: to the same Singant transcript and come up with ten 164 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 4: different analyzes, whereas when you're actually in the room with 165 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 4: the person who's talking, you get a sense of the reality. 166 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 4: Is that fair? 167 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: And an inordinate amount of is human enabled? Right, The 168 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: reason you have the Singen is because of a human 169 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 2: being interacting with the technology and so recruiting that human being. 170 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 2: Is actually that a lot of the SIGANS, huge amount 171 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: of Sycains streams are based on people. 172 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 4: The point I'm trying to make is if particular head 173 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 4: of American intelligence is a longtime PULP member who has 174 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 4: shown strange affinities with people like Bashar al Asad and 175 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 4: Vladimir V. Putin and on the head of oh, I 176 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 4: don't know the Jordanian Intelligence Service or the Ukrainian Intelligence Service? 177 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 4: Am I going to play foot seat with that person? 178 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: So when I was in a rock senior officer there 179 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: and back in fourteen fifteen, we had a group of 180 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: congressmen and senators come in. Now we live in Iraq, 181 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 2: we go out into the Red Zone. We've got assets 182 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: who were both in Isis. We have a lot of 183 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 2: Arabic speakers. We live there. And we had this group 184 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 2: of lawmakers come in and I'm not gonna see who 185 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: it was, and there were like seven or eight of 186 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: them with their staffs there, and we were giving them 187 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 2: a briefing about what's going on in Iraq. Right now, 188 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 2: we're surrounded on three sides. Isis is ascended, Moses has fallen, 189 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: they're just after Mosa felt And one guy takes his 190 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 2: loafers off and picking his toenails while we're briefing. So 191 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: this is incredible disrespect to the officers who are risking 192 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 2: their lives to be there. And when they finish, he says, basically, 193 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: this is a lot of hohoi. And he says they're 194 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 2: only in it for the money. And one of my 195 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: officers couldn't help themselves and says, you can't offer them 196 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: like an extra hundred dollars to blow themselves up. Now, 197 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: the other lawmakers around it were clearly embarrassed at this guy. 198 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: But what happens if like they they're all picking their 199 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 2: toes right, and they look at the people who live 200 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 2: there and say, I know you understand that you live there. 201 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: But none of this is true because we have our 202 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: own reality. But as to who will stay and who 203 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: will go, I think a lot of people with integrity 204 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 2: will leave, people with options will leave. People who will 205 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: stay will fall into a couple different categories. One will 206 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 2: be career quizzlings who are like, yeah, I'll do it 207 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 2: if you or you give me a big promotion. I'll 208 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: say whatever you want. We saw that during the gospeling time. 209 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 2: Other people will basically just put their heads down and 210 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: do what bureaucrats everywhere in the world always do. They'll 211 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: just try to do their job and wait it out. 212 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 4: In any large organization, I could talk about the New 213 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 4: York Times, which is about maybe eight percent the size 214 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 4: of the CIA. But in any large organization, you have 215 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 4: the talented tenth okay, and the talented tenth at the 216 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 4: top of intellect, at the top of experience, at the 217 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 4: top of expertise are going to bring you ninety percent 218 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 4: of your successes. And if the talented tenth head for 219 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 4: the door, that's bad news. I hate to be a 220 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 4: harbinger of doom. In many ways, the situation we're about 221 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 4: to be and is absurd and orderline hilarious until stuff happened. 222 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 4: It's a mean old world out there, gentlemen. The Russians 223 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 4: and the Chinese are each through their intelligence services, coming 224 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 4: out of it with ill intent. That Chinese, it seems to me, 225 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 4: love to have your take on this. Want to know us. 226 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 4: They want information dominance. They want to know everything about 227 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 4: the United States government. They want to tap our phones, 228 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 4: they want to rate our computers, they want our personnel files, 229 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 4: and they got it. They want to know us. So 230 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 4: if the balloon goes up in twenty or thirty forty years, 231 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 4: they have information dominance. The Russians just want to screw us. 232 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 4: They don't want to know us. They want to subvert 233 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 4: and sabotage our form of government. And they have achieved 234 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 4: more than Marginal's success over the last eight ten years. 235 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 4: You have a real crisis, and it is almost inevitable 236 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 4: that there will be one. What are these knuckleheads going 237 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 4: to do to protect our country? 238 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. 239 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 4: In the last year of his first term, Trump installed 240 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 4: John Ratcliff and Cash betent Well at the very top 241 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 4: of the Directorate of Natural Intelligence. Were they there to 242 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 4: make sure that big pieces on whither China were going 243 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 4: to be like expertly thought out and edited. No, they 244 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 4: were there to raid the files Russia House where you 245 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 4: used to work, John, to try and dig up dirt 246 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 4: on the president's political enemies and to try and find 247 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 4: a smoking gun that would magically absolve him of his 248 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 4: and his campaign and his teams plussy footing with Vladimir Poot. 249 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 2: It's a conspiracy theory, but it's one I'm open to. 250 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: Is that another reason he's so interested in Russia and 251 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 2: Cia and having it is he doesn't want evidence coming 252 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: out of collusion. Right, there was collusion. It's like there was. 253 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 2: I'm not sure they could prove it in a criminal 254 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: court of law, but certainly man Afford, his campaign manager 255 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: was dealing with the Russians. His own son was talking 256 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 2: to the Russians in line of the FBI about it. 257 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 2: His campaign advisor was lying to the FBI about and 258 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: destroying evidence and his relationship with the Russians. So there's Russia, 259 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: Russa Russia. There was a lot of it. There is 260 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 2: a smoking gun someplace, and they need to make sure 261 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 2: that it doesn't come out, that we don't find it. 262 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 4: I don't know how you feel, Jerry John. I know 263 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 4: you have mixed feelings about Federal Bureau of Investigation events 264 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 4: counter counterintelligence capacities. But in American counterintelligence, which is spycatching 265 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 4: among other things, you can't do it without the FBI 266 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 4: in this country. CEEI has no police powers in this country. 267 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 4: Yet cash Betel says, do you guys go play cops 268 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 4: and robbers? I would disestablish the national security of the FBI. 269 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 4: They ain't good. 270 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: No, In fact, I think yeah, the danger Keshpertel, the 271 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: FBI is more dangerous than Tulsea Gabbert at DNI for 272 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: the American public. Obviously partners are on the world and 273 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: the things we need to worry about incredibly important, and 274 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: the D A and I just doesn't control a lot 275 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: of the actual collection and processing of intelligence. 276 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 4: There's a lot of the lists talk going around about 277 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 4: the deep state, and the deep state, which does not exist, 278 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 4: is supposedly this nefarious conspiracy of spies and soldiers and 279 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 4: bureaucrats who are have dedicated their professional and personal lives 280 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 4: to undermining Donald Trump. Once upon a time, way back 281 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 4: in the twentieth century, there was a deep state in 282 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 4: who it was embodied in one man, and that man 283 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 4: was Jaegar Hoover. JEdgar Hoover, an unelected bureaucrat who ruled 284 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 4: the FBI for forty eight years, used his powers to 285 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 4: spy on people without warrants, to break into their homes, 286 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 4: to rifle through their papers, to conduct wiretapping, to destroy 287 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 4: people for political purposes. That was political warfare. And presidents 288 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 4: never said no to Hoover. Attorneys general never said no too, 289 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 4: And it wasn't until he died in nineteen seventy two, 290 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 4: six weeks before the Watergate breaking. That never would have happened. 291 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 4: If Hoover was around. And then two things happened. When 292 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 4: Jaeger who were died literally the next week, the Supreme 293 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 4: Court outlawed wartless wire tapping this country. And then the 294 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 4: Watergate break can happen. Okay, and the whole panoply of 295 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 4: Cold War national security began to break down. Helms got 296 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 4: fired because he wouldn't cover up Watergate for Nixon, and 297 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 4: the old national security state that had existed since the 298 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 4: end of World War Two began to break down. Okay, 299 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 4: we run the risk under this president his nominees for 300 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 4: national security position of the return of a national security 301 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 4: state in which the powers of American intelligence and national 302 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 4: security are turned on Americans for political purposes. I think 303 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 4: that's a real danger. 304 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 2: So that no no podcast is complete without at least 305 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: a couple of Nazi references. And I got two for 306 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 2: you that I want to say that that remind me of. 307 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: One is you talked about Hoover and he had the 308 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 2: goods on everybody right. Every American president was afraid of him, 309 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 2: politicians were afraid of him. And in Nazi Germany, Hermann Goering, 310 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: despite the fact that he wasn't didn't do anything right. 311 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 2: He didn't really have a job he ran the Lufaffe, 312 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 2: did it poorly, and yet nobody came for him. And 313 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 2: one of the reasons for that was because when he 314 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: was head of the Prussian Police he had this new 315 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 2: technology called telephone wire tapping act. He had been nobody 316 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: knew about this and really hit it and Hermann Goering 317 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: during the Nazis rose, I know, I can't help, but 318 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 2: I speak a freaking language, a gorn. He had the 319 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 2: goods on everybody, including Hillery. So right up until the 320 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 2: nineteen forty five they were all afraid of Gourring, not 321 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: because of his insight, but because he, like Hoover, he 322 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: had the goods. 323 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 4: He could walk up to some senior Nazi officers said, yeah, 324 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 4: should see you'll have been a bad. 325 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 2: Boy, your male boyfriend that you have not told us 326 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 2: about it, he says. But the other thing, and more ominous, though, 327 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 2: is you talked about loyalty tests. And I think this 328 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: is in the air with this administration. The illustration coming 329 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 2: in is Hitler's rise to power. When he really took 330 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 2: power is after Hindenburg died, and one of the first 331 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: things he did is he had the military swear an 332 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: oath to him personally, right not to the Constitution. Right, 333 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: and soon after all his deep state guys bureaucracy swear 334 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 2: an oath to him personally, not to the country, not 335 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 2: to the fatherland, not to the Constitution, and that was 336 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 2: the end of their democracy, right, the last gas. And 337 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: when we start going down that road where loyalty, you know, 338 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: call me ran into that first the buzzsaw, Are you 339 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: loyal to me? The only answer we can have as 340 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: Americans is no. You should swear two oaths in your life. 341 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 2: One is when you get married and the other is 342 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: when you're when you work for the federal government or 343 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: the military. Is you swear an oath to the institution 344 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: and that should be your only loyalty. And for some 345 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: reason United States citizens they're somehow like, okay, that's been normalized, 346 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 2: swearing an oath to a political figure. That's really dangerous. 347 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 2: That's not a conspiracy theory. That's a real conspiracy. When 348 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: you start telling senior CIA, FBI people, you must be 349 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: loyal to me, and. 350 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 4: It is a conspiracy against the Constitution and ultimately against 351 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 4: the American people. 352 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: Hold on just a second, Well we take a quick break. Tim. 353 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: I know you're working on a new book or a 354 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: new book's coming out, so can you tell us about 355 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: it a little bit. 356 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 4: The book is called The Mission the CIA in the 357 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 4: twenty first Century. It starts in the spring of two 358 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 4: thousand and one. It goes right up to the present day. 359 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 4: I'm writing the epilogue right now. It is entirely on 360 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 4: the record, as was Legacy of Ashes, my earlier history 361 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 4: of the CIA, widely if not universally acclaimed. 362 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you with a very negative history, 363 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: so as Wry, are you ready to take it all 364 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: back now? 365 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 4: Well, I'll tell you, John, the old book was based 366 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 4: on literally three hundred thousand declassified documents from CIA, from State, 367 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 4: from the Pentagon, from the White House, from the end 368 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 4: of World War Two up to the early twenty first century. 369 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 4: So I talked to people. I talked to an amazing 370 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 4: array of people, including the top people on the seventh floor, 371 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 4: including sitting chiefs of the clandestine Service, including the man 372 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 4: who was tasked with setting up the black sites, including 373 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 4: the three unbelievable officers who took down aq KHN, who 374 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 4: ran the world's biggest and by far most dangerous nuclear 375 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 4: weapons technology smuggling ring. I talked to people who were 376 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 4: freezing their asses off in Iraqi, Curtisan before the American 377 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 4: invasion in two thousand and three, executing a covert action 378 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 4: plan to take down Saddam, knowing that it would take 379 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 4: the eighty second Airborne to actually do it, but they 380 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 4: had their marching orders. I talked to officers who served 381 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 4: in Baghdad Station, as you did Jerry earlier in the 382 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 4: war in Kabble, in the worst places on Earth, like 383 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 4: the Shikin Base in Afghanistan. There's a t shirt from 384 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 4: there that says, Ella is only skin deep. Who served 385 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 4: in Pakistan, who served in Jordan, who served in Syria. 386 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 4: And I listened to them and I wrote down what 387 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 4: they said. 388 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 2: And so had they been drinking, yeah you didn't talk 389 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 2: to us, we would have suayed you. 390 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 4: I did talk to Cipher, and yes you were drinking. 391 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 4: It was a very cold, dry martini, as I recall, 392 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 4: which is what all good intelligence officers drink. It is 393 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 4: a human book. I think Legacy of Ashes, the book 394 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 4: that came out now seventeen years ago, is a book 395 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 4: about an institution, but it's a book about an institution 396 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 4: that came out at a very dark time for the institution. 397 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 4: Nine to eleven, the WMD reported the Iraq War going 398 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 4: south one hundred miles an hour, the Goss regime, and 399 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 4: at the sixtieth anniversary that took place a few months 400 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 4: before the book came out, there was a lot of hanks. 401 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 4: There was a lot of sorrow, and I think the 402 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 4: book was a product of its time. What I like 403 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 4: about this book, might me repeat it's called The Mission 404 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 4: that it'll be out July fifteenth, is it? It really talks 405 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 4: about the mission when we started out before nine to eleven. 406 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 4: For the past decade, people have been wandering around saying, 407 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 4: what the what's the mission? The mission's over? We dislayed 408 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 4: the Soviet beast, what's the mission now? And that relative 409 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 4: handful of people after al Cada blew up our two 410 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 4: embassies in Africa in August nineteen eighty eight, said well, yeah, 411 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 4: we know what the mission is now. But the President 412 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 4: of the United States didn't, the Secretary of Defense didn't, 413 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 4: and Condy Rice as a National Security advisor, they didn't 414 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 4: know what the mission was. And Rice and Cheney thought 415 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 4: the whole arcaded thing was like some big strategic deception. 416 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: And the Attorney General he told the FBI guys to 417 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: quit wasting your time on this terrorism stuff. 418 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 4: Well, it's not the mission until the president says its mission. Frankly, 419 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 4: the CI is exquisitely sensitive to presidential commands, and for 420 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 4: the better part of fifteen years, counter terrorism was the mission. 421 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 4: And then starting about ten years ago, roughly twenty fourteen, 422 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 4: give or take, there was a generational chain. Bin Laden 423 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 4: was dead. There was still a lot of danger in 424 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 4: the Islamic world, but espionage began to regain its proper 425 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 4: place of privacy at CI. And as evidence of that, 426 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 4: just in the fall of twenty one, the CI stole 427 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 4: Ladimir Putin's warp plans for Ukraine right out of the Kremlin. 428 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 4: That's what you want your intelligence service to be. You 429 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 4: wanted to know the intentions and capabilities of your enemies. 430 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 4: That's what y'all are there for. That's why they pay 431 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 4: you the small change. 432 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: We were running some good cases prior to twenty fourteen. Oh, 433 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but I understand what you're saying in 434 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: terms of I do think that not just CI, but 435 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: this country over invested in counter terrorism, oversold. Obviously it 436 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: was incredibly important. Okay, there was a danger. The American 437 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: citizen don't really have a choice, did you. No, it 438 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: was a big deal, but it couldn't bring down the 439 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: United States, whereas China rush at these places at least 440 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: have the ability done to have a war with US. 441 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: That would be a much more serious thing. We did 442 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,239 Speaker 1: a good job on the counter terrorism fight, but I 443 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: think we probably focused too much on that for a 444 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: little bit too long. 445 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 2: If anything, maybe product of our successes, there was inside 446 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: of CIA in a sense that we need to deprioritize 447 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: a vitual human spying, recruiting spies, And it wasn't so 448 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: much deprioritizing that is prioritizing other elements of CIA, which 449 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: are also important, analysis and these all these other things. 450 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 2: But I think a lot of people who recruit and 451 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 2: run spies, espionage networks, traditional stuff that CIA does, they 452 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: were seen as like yesterday's movie stars, and it was 453 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: no longer it was no longer a necessity when you've 454 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: got technology that we no longer need to recruit spies. 455 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 2: And we still did, but I think there was a 456 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 2: and maybe still is to a certain extent, a d 457 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 2: emphasis on that, And it would be good to say 458 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: CIA go back to its human espionage roots and focus 459 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 2: on that. 460 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 4: I say that's been happening, and I think that you 461 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 4: can attribute in some the survival of Ukraine since twenty fourteen. 462 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: I wish the rest of the administration upped its game 463 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: and supporting Ukraine. But I hear you. 464 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 4: If you're gonna blow up Russian generals in the heart 465 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 4: of Moscow, you've been around of some good intelligence. I'm 466 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,239 Speaker 4: not saying CI provided the intelligence. Who knows where they 467 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 4: got the intelligence from. But it is not a war 468 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 4: that can be won with weapons. It is a war 469 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 4: in which intelligence plays a central and a crucial role. 470 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: That's fair, and arguably we are at war with Russia, 471 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 2: just not traditional war. Russia looks at warfare different in 472 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: the United States, that's right. So to them, it's you 473 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 2: got to think about what you want to accomplish, and 474 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: armed force is just one piece of that. And war 475 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: never ends for the Russians like for us, it's like 476 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: we're either fighting a kinetic war or we're at peace. 477 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 2: For Russians, it's a NonStop political warfare. 478 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. The first person who articulated that was George Kennan, 479 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 4: the man who dreamed up the Cladist service of the 480 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,719 Speaker 4: CI in which he served. 481 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: He did indeed, Yeah. 482 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 2: He was just saying what Lenin was already doing. 483 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 4: Lenin and yeah, there is war never ends for those guys. 484 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: Now, it's a different way of looking at things. And 485 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: they've been quite successful. I mean they're killing people around 486 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: Europe and around the world, and they're spreading disinformation and 487 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: they're using deception to break on us, and they're missing 488 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: in elections and all those kind of things. 489 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 4: Well, that's a lot of fun. 490 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 2: It's always enjoyable and it was great Vita. 491 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 3: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 492 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 3: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 493 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 3: Implausible it is a production of honorable mention and abominable 494 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 3: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.