1
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,200
Speaker 1: Ethanol is toxic, but many animals still love it. So

2
00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,560
Speaker 1: is ethanol ever helpful? Please don't tell me now.

3
00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,880
Speaker 2: When antimatter and matter meet, they totally annihilate. If you

4
00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,440
Speaker 2: are your own antiparticle, then what is your fate?

5
00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,320
Speaker 1: If I slurp down loads of seawater, death is my fate?

6
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:30,400
Speaker 3: Ugh?

7
00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,959
Speaker 1: Why is it so hard to OSMO regulate? And I'm

8
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,200
Speaker 1: realizing right now we both use the word fate in rhyme,

9
00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:38,479
Speaker 1: And so this is anyway, here we go.

10
00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,519
Speaker 2: Whatever questions keep you up at night, Daniel and Kelly's

11
00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:45,640
Speaker 2: answers will make it all right.

12
00:00:46,440 --> 00:01:02,000
Speaker 1: Welcome to Listener Questions, Episode number forty three.

13
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,080
Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist who loves thinking

14
00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,959
Speaker 2: about aliens, and I wonder if aliens drink alcohol and seawater.

15
00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:12,039
Speaker 4: Oh.

16
00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Kelly Wiersmith. I studied parasites and space, and

17
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:16,840
Speaker 1: so Daniel, let's go ahead and do what we do

18
00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:17,880
Speaker 1: to all of our listeners.

19
00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:18,280
Speaker 2: What's that?

20
00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:23,000
Speaker 1: Do you think that aliens drink alcohol or seapwater?

21
00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,759
Speaker 2: I'm sure that aliens know how to have a good time,

22
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,080
Speaker 2: whether that involves ethanol or smoking alien banana peels, or

23
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,600
Speaker 2: the moral equivalent. I don't know, but I sure hope

24
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,280
Speaker 2: aliens have figured out how to have fun in this universe.

25
00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 2: It would be pretty disappointing to meet aliens and have

26
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,080
Speaker 2: them just be bored and boring.

27
00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:50,360
Speaker 1: Weld on, They can be fun without imbibing toxic substances. No, absolutely,

28
00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,400
Speaker 1: your definition of fun is too narrow.

29
00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 2: No, I was speaking more broadly, like, I hope they

30
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,080
Speaker 2: know how to have fun, and maybe that's a part

31
00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,480
Speaker 2: of it. But absolutely, I hope that aliens have figured

32
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,960
Speaker 2: out a way to have fun in this universe and

33
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be toxic substances. I have fun

34
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,560
Speaker 2: eating cookies, for example, or you know, watching a nice movie,

35
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,560
Speaker 2: or just interacting with my fellow beings, you know, but

36
00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,200
Speaker 2: partaking of the universe?

37
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,480
Speaker 1: Man, yeah, Man, do you have fun drinking seawater? Man?

38
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:19,560
Speaker 1: I advise against that.

39
00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 2: I like a nice salty beverage.

40
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,200
Speaker 1: Margarita with salt on the rim. Yes.

41
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:33,079
Speaker 2: Otherwise no, Well, what is Kelly's fun beverage of choice

42
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:34,560
Speaker 2: right now?

43
00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:40,760
Speaker 1: It's like carbonated water, because at the moment, alcohol gives

44
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 1: me a horrible headache the next day and it doesn't

45
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,920
Speaker 1: seem worth it. But I hope somehow this aspect of

46
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,160
Speaker 1: my physiology changes because I'm not a fan.

47
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,520
Speaker 2: What about you, I'm a big fan of carbonated water.

48
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,640
Speaker 2: We have a keg and a CO two tank and

49
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,000
Speaker 2: a little caggerator at home, so we we roll our

50
00:02:58,040 --> 00:02:59,000
Speaker 2: own bubblu.

51
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:04,000
Speaker 1: Water, all right. So trigger warning today, Daniel and I

52
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,600
Speaker 1: might be making a fair number of off color jokes,

53
00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,280
Speaker 1: and at some point I will be talking about animal research,

54
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,679
Speaker 1: and so decide if you want to keep listening to

55
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:13,840
Speaker 1: the rest of this episode or not.

56
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 2: But you know, I live with a home master kombucha brewer,

57
00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,040
Speaker 2: and you know that's both slightly bubbly and slightly alcoholic.

58
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 2: I know it's slightly bubbly because at random times during

59
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 2: the day or night, the top of the kombucha container

60
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:28,400
Speaker 2: will just blow off.

61
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 1: I had a roommate who brewed her own beer, and

62
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 1: one night, in the middle of the night, at like

63
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:40,440
Speaker 1: two am, we hear like, oh, we thought it was

64
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,600
Speaker 1: like good shots or something, and then we saw something that,

65
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,520
Speaker 1: you know, at first in the dark, looked like blood

66
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 1: seeping out from under her bed, but it was the

67
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 1: dark beer that she had brewed and then had just

68
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,960
Speaker 1: sort of exploded. I think she's learned a lot since

69
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,640
Speaker 1: then about how to do that safely wonderful.

70
00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,600
Speaker 2: Well, today on the episode, We're not going to figure

71
00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 2: out what was under Kelly's roommate's bit. That's a question

72
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,400
Speaker 2: that may go unanswered forever. But we are going to

73
00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,760
Speaker 2: answer questions from listeners, people who are curious about the universe,

74
00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,520
Speaker 2: people who have fun just thinking about how it all

75
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,559
Speaker 2: works man, and going to figure it out, absolutely engaging

76
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,479
Speaker 2: with the universe, partaking in its mysteries, and looking to

77
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,480
Speaker 2: get a few answers. If you have questions about how

78
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,719
Speaker 2: things work, we want to hear from you. I mean you,

79
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,800
Speaker 2: not the person next to you, you you, you the

80
00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,320
Speaker 2: person who's listening right now. You know you have a question,

81
00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,400
Speaker 2: you should send it to us to questions at Daniel

82
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 2: Kelly dot org. What's stopping you?

83
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,599
Speaker 1: We answer every email that we get and a subset

84
00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,039
Speaker 1: of them show up on the show.

85
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,880
Speaker 2: That's right, So your curiosity could help lots of people

86
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 2: understand the universe better. And on today's episode we have

87
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,320
Speaker 2: a really fun blend of topics. Should we jump right

88
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,280
Speaker 2: in and talk about us in all we should?

89
00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:49,400
Speaker 3: So?

90
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,120
Speaker 1: This first question is from Phil from christ Church, England.

91
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,800
Speaker 4: Hi, Donald Catty, I once read about an experiment. Well,

92
00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,159
Speaker 4: mel fruit fliers have to be rejected by females, so

93
00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,599
Speaker 4: our alcohol in rotting fruit. So this's got me thinking

94
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 4: what solids to organisms actively see toxins? Also, is this

95
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,960
Speaker 4: a universal trait? And does it affect evolution in positive ways?

96
00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 4: And ultimately as it shapes behavior and physiology. I would

97
00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,640
Speaker 4: be super grateful if you could shed some light on this.

98
00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 4: Thanks so much, Bill Thorn from christ Jutch, England.

99
00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,200
Speaker 1: All right, so this is a pretty broad topic. I'm

100
00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,559
Speaker 1: going to be honest. I decided to narrow this down

101
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,160
Speaker 1: a little bit just to make it feasible to answer

102
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,360
Speaker 1: in twenty minutes. So instead of toxins, we're going to

103
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,240
Speaker 1: talk about ethanol in particular. But let's go ahead and

104
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,280
Speaker 1: talk about what a toxin is.

105
00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:41,359
Speaker 2: Say ethanol a toxin? Really?

106
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 1: Well, so that toxin is So I'm gonna be honest.

107
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,479
Speaker 1: I didn't like look up the Webster definition, but my

108
00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,160
Speaker 1: personal understanding of toxin is that this is a bit

109
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,240
Speaker 1: of a slippery word. How would you define toxin, Daniel.

110
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,560
Speaker 2: I guess without looking into it, I would say toxin

111
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,160
Speaker 2: is something that you have so much of that it

112
00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,760
Speaker 2: damages you. There, like the dosage being important. I know

113
00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,720
Speaker 2: something's like, you know, fluoride in the water is helpful

114
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 2: for your teeth, but too much of it is bad

115
00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 2: for you. And I don't know does that apply generally

116
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,320
Speaker 2: to everything, that like, a reasonable amount of it is

117
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,680
Speaker 2: good and too much of it is bad, in which

118
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 2: case toxin would be a dose dependent thing. I have

119
00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,040
Speaker 2: no idea how far off am I.

120
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,120
Speaker 1: That's how I think of toxin also, that it's a

121
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,440
Speaker 1: dose dependent thing. And I'm going to just quickly go

122
00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,680
Speaker 1: on the record and say I am pro fluoride in

123
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:31,800
Speaker 1: the drinking water for teeth related purposes. But but you know, toxins,

124
00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 1: It can even depend on what species you're talking about.

125
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,560
Speaker 1: Like so for my sheep and my goats, we have

126
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,599
Speaker 1: a bunch of minerals out for the goats, but we

127
00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 1: have to make sure we have different minerals out for

128
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,000
Speaker 1: the sheep because copper is good for goats but toxic

129
00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,760
Speaker 1: for sheep. So it can depend on species, and it

130
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,200
Speaker 1: can depend on dose.

131
00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,200
Speaker 2: I have this impression that goats can basically eat anything, though,

132
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:51,800
Speaker 2: Is that true? I mean they can eat copper like

133
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,280
Speaker 2: they can like entire like copper piping.

134
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,839
Speaker 1: Or oh no, no, no, they're not eating like tin cans

135
00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:57,800
Speaker 1: and copper piping.

136
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,280
Speaker 2: They're bumpers off of cars.

137
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,599
Speaker 1: Right, cartoons that we watch in our childhood aside. No, Actually,

138
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,320
Speaker 1: my goats are picky about plenty of things and won't eat.

139
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,480
Speaker 1: They do want to eat my hair, but there's plenty

140
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,480
Speaker 1: of other things that they will refuse to eat, so

141
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,920
Speaker 1: that they're kind of picky. But okay, right, So we're

142
00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,280
Speaker 1: going to focus on ethanol, which I'm going to go

143
00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,440
Speaker 1: ahead and say is a toxin. But this is a

144
00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 1: dose dependent thing. You have a little bit and part

145
00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,120
Speaker 1: of why I think it's a toxin is because our

146
00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,280
Speaker 1: bodies do have to break it down in a particular

147
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,880
Speaker 1: way because otherwise it does harm us. And so we

148
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,480
Speaker 1: have two different enzymes. One of them breaks ethanol down

149
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 1: into another substance that's toxic and can build up in

150
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,880
Speaker 1: our body, and another breaks it down into something that

151
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,480
Speaker 1: is less bad, acetic acid. We can totally handle that.

152
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,360
Speaker 1: And if you only have one of these enzymes, then

153
00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,400
Speaker 1: the bad byproduct builds up and you end up getting

154
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 1: what is sometimes called Asian flushing syndrome, which isn't fair

155
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,680
Speaker 1: because other parts of the world also have people who

156
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,680
Speaker 1: have this as well. But this byproduct builds up, your

157
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,960
Speaker 1: face gets red, you get heart palpitations, and so our

158
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,920
Speaker 1: bodies do need to do stuff to ethanol so that

159
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't hurt us. So it does feel like it

160
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:05,640
Speaker 1: fits the definition of toxin to me.

161
00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,960
Speaker 2: I see, but the body metabolizing it, breaking it down

162
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,280
Speaker 2: into smaller pieces. It does that with everything, Right, when

163
00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,240
Speaker 2: I eat pizza, the body breaks that down into pieces. Right,

164
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:16,320
Speaker 2: how is this different?

165
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 3: Yeah?

166
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: No, No, that's a really good point. Yeah, it's a

167
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,800
Speaker 1: really good point. That's a really good point.

168
00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,440
Speaker 2: And at my very basic level of understanding of biology,

169
00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,600
Speaker 2: in biochemistry, which is shameful. You know, ethanol in the

170
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,480
Speaker 2: body influences you know, the way your brain works, but

171
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,839
Speaker 2: then when your body metabolizes, it no longer does. And

172
00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,360
Speaker 2: so there's this like I'm not sure that makes it.

173
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 2: It talks in but you know, like, pizza doesn't influence

174
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,280
Speaker 2: my thinking before it's metabolized the way ethanol does, unless

175
00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:48,800
Speaker 2: I'm misunderstanding how that all works.

176
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,520
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so if you eat a lot of pizza

177
00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,240
Speaker 1: your whole life, that's not going to be good for you.

178
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,319
Speaker 2: It's gonna be fun though. Taking of the universe, well,

179
00:08:58,559 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 2: that's right.

180
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 1: That's right. But if you drink a lot of alcohol,

181
00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 1: it's going to like give you cirrhosis, it's going to

182
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,880
Speaker 1: damage your liver. And so, like it is very clear,

183
00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,119
Speaker 1: I'm gonna like pull us a little bit back from

184
00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,720
Speaker 1: maybe the hole that I jumped into. But if you

185
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,680
Speaker 1: have a lot of alcohol, we know that that's bad

186
00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,320
Speaker 1: for your liver and essentially being an alcoholic can kill you.

187
00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:19,120
Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, right.

188
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:24,000
Speaker 1: So dose bad. Okay. So Phil's question was why do

189
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,240
Speaker 1: animals seek out this alcohol or why do they seek

190
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:27,960
Speaker 1: out the toxins? And so first let's talk about this

191
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,360
Speaker 1: fruitfly study. So the idea here was that fruitflies get

192
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,480
Speaker 1: rejected by females and then they go drink because they're sad.

193
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,120
Speaker 1: It's a little bit more complicated.

194
00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 2: That's kind of cute, a bunch of male fruit flies

195
00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 2: hovering over the rotten orange being like man alone on

196
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:45,959
Speaker 2: a Friday night.

197
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,600
Speaker 1: Again, yeah, okay, but it's a little bit more complicated,

198
00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,679
Speaker 1: and it's important that we understand what's going on here

199
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,280
Speaker 1: because fruitflies have become a model system for trying to

200
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,199
Speaker 1: understand alcoholism and people. And so if fruit flies when

201
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,720
Speaker 1: they're you know, stressed or bummed out, go to drink

202
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,199
Speaker 1: and you can sort of understand what's happening there. Maybe

203
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,840
Speaker 1: you can understand something about alcoholism in people. So the

204
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,720
Speaker 1: argument goes, But like all things that Kelly talks about,

205
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,240
Speaker 1: this is slightly more complicated. They were able to differentiate

206
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:18,120
Speaker 1: between rejection and like just not getting to have sex. So,

207
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,200
Speaker 1: for example, they expose them to decapitated female flies which

208
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,400
Speaker 1: couldn't reject them, but they but also didn't like initiate sex,

209
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,320
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And so anyway, just not

210
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,480
Speaker 1: getting laid makes you interested in going to have alcohol

211
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,640
Speaker 1: as a fruit fly, as a fruit as a fruit fly, that's.

212
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,119
Speaker 2: Right, thank you, generally, are we speaking here, Yeah.

213
00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 1: That's right. But it's worth noting that there have been

214
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,760
Speaker 1: some other studies that have found that if male fruit

215
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,400
Speaker 1: flies go and consume fermented fruit, that might be helping

216
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,839
Speaker 1: them produce some pheromones that then make them more attractive

217
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,520
Speaker 1: to females. And so in general, fruit flies have this complicated,

218
00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 1: complex relationship with rotting fruit because that's where they lay

219
00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,840
Speaker 1: their eggs, that's the food that they eat. And so

220
00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,520
Speaker 1: the fact that males are going back to the alcohol

221
00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,480
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that they're like, oh, I'm super bummed out.

222
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 1: I need to like get drunk so I can forget.

223
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,680
Speaker 1: It could mean that they're like, okay, well, maybe I

224
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 1: need some more food so that I can be a

225
00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,440
Speaker 1: big or more attractive mate. Or maybe I need to

226
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,360
Speaker 1: have some more fruit because then I can make some

227
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 1: more pheromones to attract the ladies. And it doesn't necessarily

228
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 1: have to mean they're bummed out. It could be something else,

229
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,040
Speaker 1: because fruitflies rely on rotting fruit in a way that

230
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,199
Speaker 1: like humans don't. Necessarily we don't lay our babies into

231
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:30,479
Speaker 1: vats of bananas.

232
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,679
Speaker 2: Speak for yourself, Virginia.

233
00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,240
Speaker 1: You weird Californians. I did give birth in California though.

234
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,560
Speaker 2: All right, all right, O, wait, so you have a

235
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:41,760
Speaker 2: native born Californian.

236
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,200
Speaker 1: I do, Yes, Yes, when we.

237
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,080
Speaker 2: Become our own republic, we will grant citizenship to that child.

238
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,640
Speaker 1: So just one you're gonna exclude that, I'm sorry. The

239
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,199
Speaker 1: other one's going to be. I bet Texas gets its

240
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,360
Speaker 1: own stakehood first, and he's gonna be She's gonna be

241
00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 1: a Texas, a citizen of the Great Nation of Texas.

242
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, we California's going to have its own space program

243
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:02,079
Speaker 2: before Texas does.

244
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. Isn't that where Elon musk right now

245
00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,240
Speaker 1: he's got starship.

246
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,160
Speaker 2: In you're right, yeah, okay, good luck.

247
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,040
Speaker 1: Daniel, We'll see all right. Okay, so let's get back

248
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,600
Speaker 1: on track. So phil generally wanted to know like what

249
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,720
Speaker 1: organisms seek out alcohol and why do organisms seek out alcohol?

250
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,640
Speaker 1: So it turns out, actually lots of animals seek out alcohol.

251
00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,680
Speaker 1: I found this great paper that was talking about how

252
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, when you go through the news, you'll see

253
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,680
Speaker 1: reportings of like, oh, an elk ate some fruit that

254
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,719
Speaker 1: was fermented and then they got stuck in a tree

255
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 1: because they were drunk, or you know, you'll hear a

256
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:38,560
Speaker 1: bunch of different stories about drunk animals. And so the

257
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,480
Speaker 1: idea is that animals stumble upon alcohol like stuff sometimes

258
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,120
Speaker 1: and accidentally consume it, and then they do stupid things.

259
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 2: And I've seen those videos from France, for example, of

260
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,880
Speaker 2: deer like prancing in a circle and looking crazy because

261
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,080
Speaker 2: they eat rotten fruit. But it's not clear to me

262
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 2: whether that deer is having fun, yeah, you know, or

263
00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,480
Speaker 2: if it's like really miserable. So it's not clear that

264
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 2: this deer's would seek this out again, like you.

265
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,480
Speaker 1: Know, right, right, But so so The authors were arguing

266
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,599
Speaker 1: that actually, if you go out and you sample a

267
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,679
Speaker 1: bunch of different kinds of like fruits and nectars and

268
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,360
Speaker 1: basically sugary things produced by plants, a lot of them

269
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,400
Speaker 1: have low levels of alcohol, and so animals are encountering

270
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,920
Speaker 1: low levels of alcohol often, and we don't have a

271
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,840
Speaker 1: very good understanding of like what that does, like what

272
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,280
Speaker 1: kind of blood alcohol level is relaxing for an elk,

273
00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,440
Speaker 1: or is something that would make an elk feel horrible? Like,

274
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,320
Speaker 1: we really haven't started looking at this in a framework

275
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,080
Speaker 1: other than oh, this only happens by accident, and.

276
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,600
Speaker 2: We're talking about fermentation here, right, There's like a process

277
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,240
Speaker 2: where microbes are breaking down sugar is and producing ethanol,

278
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 2: the same process that happens in like kombucha in the

279
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:47,520
Speaker 2: corner of my kitchen for example.

280
00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:47,839
Speaker 3: Yeah.

281
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's stick into that for a second. So

282
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 1: the idea behind ethanol production is that yeast are living

283
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 1: in sugary environments and they're competing with bacteria, and bacteria

284
00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,080
Speaker 1: could break that stuff down faster and keep the yeast

285
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,400
Speaker 1: from consuming it. But if the yeast break it into ethanol,

286
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,880
Speaker 1: the ethanol makes that habitat bad for the bacteria, so

287
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,439
Speaker 1: now the bacteria can't compete. They wipe the bacteria out,

288
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 1: and then after they've converted stuff to ethanol, they can

289
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,360
Speaker 1: then break the ethanol down into something else and consume

290
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,200
Speaker 1: that as well. So we think ethanol came about as

291
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 1: a way for yeast to essentially usurp sugary products produced

292
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,920
Speaker 1: by plants to keep the bacteria out so they can

293
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 1: keep it for themselves.

294
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,040
Speaker 2: My understanding was that also the ethanol is toxic to

295
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,040
Speaker 2: the yeast at some concentrations. So for example, when you

296
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 2: brew beer, you have yeast in it, it's alive, but

297
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 2: then it gets to a certain concentration of alcohol and

298
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,400
Speaker 2: that kills the yeast, So in the final product, you're

299
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,960
Speaker 2: not drinking live yeast. Is that true or does it

300
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:47,920
Speaker 2: just run out of sugar?

301
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 1: So I don't know if that's true for sure, but

302
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 1: that checks out with the general idea that alcohols in

303
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 1: general are also disinfectants. So it wouldn't surprise me if

304
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,120
Speaker 1: yeast were essentially producing an enough to hopefully kill the

305
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 1: bacteria but not kill themselves, sort of the same way

306
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,040
Speaker 1: that we produce fevers in the hope of making our

307
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,760
Speaker 1: body inhospitable to bacteria even though it's kind of bad

308
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,560
Speaker 1: for us, but if it gets too high, then it

309
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:12,560
Speaker 1: gets really bad for us.

310
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,720
Speaker 2: That's actually very cool because then they're taking advantage of

311
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,960
Speaker 2: the fact that different doses for different species are toxic

312
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,120
Speaker 2: and raising the levels to kill their competition, but that

313
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,600
Speaker 2: they can survive. Pretty savvy. Little yeasty bets.

314
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 1: Pretty savvy, right, And so Phil wanted to know, like,

315
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,760
Speaker 1: what's the smallest organism that seeks out alcohol. Yeast helped

316
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,560
Speaker 1: to make ethanol. Sounds like bacteria would generally want to

317
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 1: avoid ethanol since it's being produced to try to like

318
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,960
Speaker 1: out compete and kill them. I did find a lot

319
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,480
Speaker 1: of examples of insects other than fruitflies that seem interested

320
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,880
Speaker 1: in alcohol for a variety of reasons. For example, some

321
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,440
Speaker 1: beetles seem interested in yeast and the alcohols that they

322
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,800
Speaker 1: produce because they farm fungus and they want to keep

323
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,160
Speaker 1: the bacteria out, so they use yeast and alcohol as

324
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 1: a way to keep the bacteria from destroying their crops. Okay,

325
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 1: so yeast. There's lots of insects, and so now let's

326
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 1: talk about like what kinds of benefits alcohol might have

327
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 1: for animals, Like why would you search it out. So

328
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:19,280
Speaker 1: one group was hypothesizing that if you have ethanol produced

329
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,120
Speaker 1: by yeast in a fruit, that's a sign that that

330
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,320
Speaker 1: fruit isn't infected by bacteria that like might make you

331
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,240
Speaker 1: sick if you eat it. And so if you eat

332
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 1: fermented fruit, that's a way of knowing that you're eating

333
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:31,920
Speaker 1: yeast but not bacteria.

334
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,640
Speaker 2: I like how fermented fruit makes it sound yummy and

335
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,440
Speaker 2: cozy instead of like stinky and gross, because we're talking

336
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:38,560
Speaker 2: about rotten fruit.

337
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,560
Speaker 1: Here, right, Yeah, yeah, we are talking about rotten fruit.

338
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 1: That's right. There's in some insects like Drosophola, so that

339
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,200
Speaker 1: like those fruit flies. Sorry I used the D word,

340
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:49,560
Speaker 1: like the fruit flies.

341
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,720
Speaker 2: One of my good friends is a neuroscientist and she

342
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,200
Speaker 2: studies Drosophola. So it's a word that's been in my

343
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 2: brain for decades, so I'm totally immune to its Latin nature.

344
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 1: Oh so if it's it's a Latin word that you know,

345
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:01,760
Speaker 1: it's okay.

346
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,560
Speaker 2: I see No, I just forget to complain about it.

347
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,199
Speaker 2: I think it's still bad for science communication. Okay, my

348
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:09,919
Speaker 2: triggers don't fire on that one, got it?

349
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 1: Okay. So alcohol isn't just something that the males go

350
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,240
Speaker 1: to when they aren't able to be successful with the ladies.

351
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,480
Speaker 1: It is also something that they go to when parasitoids

352
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,840
Speaker 1: are around. So you might remember that parasitoids are usually

353
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,359
Speaker 1: insects that lay their eggs inside of other insects and

354
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,239
Speaker 1: then kill their host kill the host insect. Well, if

355
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,320
Speaker 1: there's parasitoids around, females will lay their eggs in super

356
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,439
Speaker 1: alcoholic fruit because that alcohol isn't so great for her babies,

357
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 1: but it's even worse for the parasitoids. So if a

358
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 1: parasitoid egg gets laid in there and it's super ethanolly,

359
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 1: that's much more likely to kill the parasitoid. And so

360
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 1: they use the fact that ethanol is like a disinfectant

361
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 1: or a toxic substance that varies in how toxic it

362
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,919
Speaker 1: is to different organisms as a way to sort of

363
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:57,760
Speaker 1: protect themselves.

364
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 2: So they have their babies in alcohol basically, yeah, to

365
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,840
Speaker 2: protect it from things that are more susceptible to alcohol.

366
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,000
Speaker 2: Not parenting advice on the show here.

367
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 1: People, I was gonna say, based on what you've said

368
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,640
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the show, do you think that's

369
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 1: a more fun way to have children?

370
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,280
Speaker 2: All right? I admit you painted me into a corner

371
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,200
Speaker 2: of that one. Yeah, I'm not going on record saying

372
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 2: bathe your children in alcohol.

373
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 1: That's good. That's good. Okay. So some other hypothesized benefits

374
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,639
Speaker 1: for alcohol for humans. We've got this drunken monkey hypothesis.

375
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 1: And the idea here is that ethanol is a sign

376
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,359
Speaker 1: that there might be sugar around. Of course, that sugar

377
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,280
Speaker 1: gets eaten up over time, so you don't want it

378
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:42,880
Speaker 1: to get to the point where the sugar has all

379
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 1: been converted into ethanol. If you read stories from long ago,

380
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,720
Speaker 1: you'll often hear people say that when water has like

381
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 1: water borne pathogens in it, people have a tendency to

382
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 1: drink more beer because you are less likely to drink

383
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,800
Speaker 1: something that will make you like that will give you cholera,

384
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,680
Speaker 1: for example. Although there's a counter argument that, like, why

385
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 1: didn't everyone just boil water instead of drinking alcohol, because

386
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 1: boiling water also would kill most water borne pathogens.

387
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 2: I've heard that story before, like in the context of

388
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,679
Speaker 2: the history of Danes drinking beer and how you know,

389
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,880
Speaker 2: Vikings used to be like allocated five liters of beer

390
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 2: a day or whatever, and it was like the only

391
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 2: source of clean water because it was filtered in some

392
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 2: way that normal water wasn't. Is that all just apocryphal?

393
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,439
Speaker 1: I think that there's some truth in it. And I

394
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,440
Speaker 1: remember reading the Ghost Map about John Snow and the

395
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,200
Speaker 1: cholera epidemic, and it was mentioned in passing that there

396
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 1: was a group of people who were kind of near

397
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 1: the pump where you would have expected them to have

398
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 1: gotten cholera from, but they didn't. And the idea was

399
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 1: that they worked in a brewery and they were just

400
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,239
Speaker 1: drinking beer all day instead of water, and that that

401
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,200
Speaker 1: maybe saved their lives, right.

402
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,800
Speaker 2: And I think this is much lower alcohol percentage, so

403
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,200
Speaker 2: it's not like they're totally slashed all day.

404
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. And then there are some other hypotheses

405
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 1: that stretch out a little far. They're like, maybe part

406
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 1: of how we manage to be such a social species

407
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 1: is because alcohol is sort of like lubricated the way

408
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 1: to living in large groups. Not totally sure how much.

409
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: I mean. Today, we have plenty of people who don't

410
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 1: drink living impact cities, but we also have plenty of

411
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,439
Speaker 1: people who drink there too, and maybe they're more pleasant

412
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,919
Speaker 1: because they're drinking, And so I don't know. So some

413
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 1: of these arguments I think go a little bit outside

414
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,879
Speaker 1: the bounds of what we can really get at with data.

415
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,959
Speaker 2: That's a nice way to say that it's very speculative.

416
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that it can be pretty speculative.

417
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,119
Speaker 2: And I was going to say, it's always very tempting

418
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,359
Speaker 2: to tell cute sounding stories to explain something, But there's

419
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 2: lots of cute sounding stories or not cute stories that

420
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,399
Speaker 2: are consistent with the data. And just because you have

421
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 2: one cute story that describes the data doesn't mean it's reality.

422
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 3: Right.

423
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,719
Speaker 2: You need to like make predictions, you need to verify

424
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 2: these things.

425
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you elaborated on that, But my intention

426
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 1: for saying it's acute stories to make clear that we

427
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 1: don't really have this backed up by data at the moment.

428
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: So I've sort of gone around Phil's question. And so

429
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: to try to nail a couple things in what kind

430
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,959
Speaker 1: of organisms consume alcohol? Actually, it looks like lots of

431
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 1: organisms are encountering ethanol. For example, bats when they eat

432
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 1: their fruits. Like organisms that eat fruit or nectar or

433
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 1: sugary substances are probably often coming into contact with alcohol.

434
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 1: But it sounds like until recently we haven't really thought

435
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 1: about the implications of that. We've mostly thought about alcohol

436
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 1: in terms of like do animals get drunk and why

437
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 1: would they get drunk, But we should maybe be thinking

438
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 1: more about like animals encountering ethanol in low levels in

439
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 1: lots of different instances in their lives, and what the

440
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 1: implication of that is for them in terms of impacts

441
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: on behavior and physiology. There's some ideas that ethanol could

442
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: impact preferences for certain kinds of fruits, because, as we

443
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, if you've got some ethanol, that indicates there

444
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: might not be bacteria there, but now you've got like

445
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: the super right fruit. But anyway, so maybe it impacted

446
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: behavior in terms of fruit seeking behaviors. In terms of physiology,

447
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 1: it looks like a lot of enzymes that we were

448
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: maybe using for other purposes and had already are now

449
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,120
Speaker 1: used to break down alcohol, which makes these kinds of foods,

450
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 1: you know, digestible and usable for us. So maybe some

451
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 1: of these enzymes got new purposes or became more widespread

452
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 1: because of the presence of ethanol in the lives of

453
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: many different kinds of animals. And that is all I

454
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 1: think I'm able to say on the topic of ethanol.

455
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 2: Well, I think this has really helped me reinforce something

456
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 2: I've come to realize recently, which is that alcohol is

457
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 2: not something humans like created and inserted into the environment.

458
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 2: It's like a natural part of decay and fermentation and

459
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 2: microbial life. It would exist even if there were in

460
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 2: humans on Earth. It's just something we've captured and manipulated

461
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 2: the way that we've manipulated some crops to be larger

462
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: and tastier and whatever, because we have a certain relationship

463
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 2: with it. But we should expect lots of creators to

464
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: have relationships with it that are going to be complicated

465
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: and different from the way we do and not easy

466
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 2: to anthrommorphize. Yeah.

467
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And just to put like a nail in how

468
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 1: excited humans are about alcohol though, Like if you look

469
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 1: at some of the earliest archaeological digs, you'll find vessels

470
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,239
Speaker 1: that were clearly meant to hold alcohol. So we've been

471
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: excited about alcohol for a really long time. And I'd

472
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: just like to highlight that a lot of my thinking

473
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: and research for this topic came from a twenty twenty

474
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: five paper that was making this argument that, like, ethanol

475
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: is actually way more widespread than we've given it credit for,

476
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: and we should be thinking about this question more broadly,

477
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: And so I do think this is like a sort

478
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: of new way of thinking about it, which I thought

479
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: was exciting, which is why I kind of emphasized that here.

480
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: All right, So, Phil, did I answer your questions? I

481
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: hope so follow up questions welcome.

482
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,719
Speaker 4: Hello Daniel and Kelly. Firstly, I feel slightly flabbergasted and

483
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 4: honored for two times of science to spend time on

484
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 4: my question mostly Kelly, yes, you've cleared up the alcohol

485
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 4: topic nicely. I'm fascinated that it's used to preserve food

486
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 4: and destroy bacteria. How the hell did those behaviors come

487
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 4: to be? Also unrelieved there might be millions of fruit

488
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 4: flies drowning their sorrows as this is probably not the

489
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 4: best answer. As you said, my question was rather broad,

490
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 4: So I do have a follow up. In the evolution

491
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 4: of omnivorism, would there have always been a small percentage

492
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 4: of genetically determined risk takers. This would keep the broader

493
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 4: population safe while seeking new potentially toxic and fatal food

494
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 4: sources using a kind of suicide squad. And if so,

495
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 4: has this been passed on to more complex life? I mean,

496
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,719
Speaker 4: I have no intention of going to Mars, but some

497
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 4: people do. Once again, thank you so much, Phil.

498
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: Hey, Phil, thanks for the great follow up question. I

499
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: don't think that there would be genetically determined individuals whose

500
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: job it was to go out there and eat everything

501
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: to see if it's toxic or not. In particularly, you

502
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: asked if this would help the broader population, And usually

503
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: you don't see behaviors that are really bad for an

504
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: individual but good for the rest of the population, because

505
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 1: the genes for that individual that would go out and

506
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: eat everything and get themselves killed would probably get washed

507
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: out of the population pretty quick as those individuals kept

508
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: dying from poisoning. It could maybe stick around if they

509
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: were specifically trying stuff and that had a massive fitness

510
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: benefit for their immediate family. So, for example, if the

511
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: environment is just loaded with toxic foods and one individual

512
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: in the family eats those foods first and then they

513
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: see what happens, and then the rest of the family

514
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: gets to eat stuff, like if it was specifically benefiting

515
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: family members, maybe you could imagine genes for that trait

516
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: sticking around as long as families that had one of

517
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: these risky eaters had loads and loads of extra babies.

518
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: But that said, as far as I know, we don't

519
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: see populations or families tending to have like an individual

520
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: who's the one that eats all the risky foods. At

521
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: least I don't remember us seeing that in the wild

522
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: at any point. But that's a fantastic question. Thanks so much.

523
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back, and everybody take a sip from your

524
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: favorite beverage, alcoholic or not, because we are going to

525
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 2: be imbibing from the cup of particle physics in a moment.

526
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: All right, And so, Daniel, who is this next question from.

527
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: This is from Reg Proctor, who's been emailing me asking

528
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: me questions about particles in the universe.

529
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: All right, let's see what Reg had to say.

530
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 5: Hi, Daniel, I have a question about particles and anti particles.

531
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 5: I get it when they annihilate each other because they

532
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 5: have opensite charges, But this is often talk about a

533
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 5: particle being its own anti particle. And my question is

534
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 5: is this like a convenience, like a mathematical construct or

535
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 5: is there something real, like a particle is actually different

536
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 5: to its antiparticle in some way that no one's ever said.

537
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 5: I don't quite understand this, and I'm hoping you can

538
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 5: help with it, and you know, obviously because I can't

539
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 5: imagine anyone else saying this, But thank you so much

540
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 5: for this wonderful podcast.

541
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: Oh this is fun.

542
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: Yes, I love talking about antimatter because there's so many

543
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: fun wrinkles here and interesting philosophical nuances. But anti matter

544
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: is such a big place in the public concept of

545
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: particle physics in a way that I think is often

546
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: misrepresented and people come away confused, and so I'm always

547
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: excited about an opportunity to dig into it and break

548
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 2: it down.

549
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: Well, let's break it down then, starting with anti particles.

550
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: What the heck are antiparticles?

551
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so anti particles are not some special flancy thing.

552
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: They're just particle physicists doing their thing, which means looking

553
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 2: for patterns and symmetries. You know. The basic process of

554
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: physics is let's look at everything in the universe and

555
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: then let's try to explain it in terms of a

556
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: small number of ideas or rules. Right, we don't just

557
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: want to list everything that happens in the universe. We're reductionist.

558
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: We want to come up with like a compact, tidy explanation.

559
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: And that means if you see two things that are similar,

560
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: you treat them as similar. You respect that similarity. So,

561
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: for example, we see the electron, right, it's a thing

562
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: in the universe, and then we found another particle called

563
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: the muon, and we weren't just like, there's an electron,

564
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: there's a muon. We were like, wow, these two things

565
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: are very similar. In fact, they're almost identical, but one

566
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: is heavier. Let's see if that pattern happens elsewhere, and

567
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: it does. Every particle we've discovered has a heavier version,

568
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: so we categorize them in this way. We're looking for

569
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: patterns for symmetries. It's sort of similar to the way

570
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: we build the periodic table of the elements. We slot

571
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: everything into where it belongs and we look for patterns.

572
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: These are metals and those are not metals, so particles

573
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: and antiparticles are just part of that game. We found electrons,

574
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: and we also notice that there are other particles that

575
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: are just like the electron but have the opposite charge,

576
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: so we call that a positron or an anti electron.

577
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: And the muon also has a positively charged version, and

578
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: the quarks also have oppositely charged versions, so this is

579
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: a symmetry it's like a mirror in our world that

580
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: says particles don't exist on their own. They have a partner.

581
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: And anytime you have something and a partner that are

582
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: related by some transformation, some symmetry, then you're curious about that.

583
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: What does that mean about the universe that it can

584
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: do A and the opposite of a at the same time.

585
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: Are we looking at something that are two sides of

586
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: the same coin. We should be treating them as a

587
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: whole instead of investigating them individually. With the way that,

588
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: for example, we've made great insights by combining electricity and

589
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: magnetism into one concept. It makes much more sense mathematically,

590
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 2: it gives us insight into special relativity. We shouldn't treat

591
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: positrons as just another kind of particle that happened to

592
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: be similar to electrons. We should acknowledge this relationship and

593
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: hope that gives us some insight into how the universe works.

594
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember when I first learned about this concept.

595
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: I was confused about why protons weren't the anti particle

596
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: for electrons. But the answer is that protons, yes, they

597
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: have the opposite charge, but they don't weigh the same amount.

598
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: So there's something totally different.

599
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. And when you put your finger

600
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: on the crucial concept for anti particles, because there's nothing

601
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: anti about a particle. You can't look at a particle

602
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: and say this one's a particle, this one's an anti particle.

603
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: The particle antiparticle thing is a relationship. You have a

604
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: pair and you say these are related by the particle

605
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 2: antiparticle relationship, which means you take one of them, you

606
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: flip the charges, you get the other one.

607
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: Okay, right, And.

608
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: So it's a relationship between two particles, and the relationship

609
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: is symmetric. So if you gave me an electron and

610
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: an anti electron and you said, Daniel, which one is

611
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: a particle and which one is the antiparticle, I would

612
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: say it doesn't matter. You could label either one matter

613
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: and the other one antimatter. It's arbitrary. We happen to

614
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: call the ones that are around a lot particles and

615
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: the ones that aren't around a lot antiparticles, because that's

616
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: just historically how we started. It would have been weird

617
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: to start off calling everything antimatter. That's just historical. But

618
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: it's about the relationship. And so as you say, if

619
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: you take an electron and you flip its charge, then

620
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: you get a positively charged electron. That's not the same

621
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: as a proton, right, They're different mass, they have different constituents.

622
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: One has a hydronic interaction, one doesn't. So a positron

623
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: and a proton are very different things, whereas a positron

624
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: and an electron are only different in these charges. You

625
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: flip the charges, you get the other particle.

626
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

627
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: I was going to highlight that hydranic thing because I

628
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: totally know what that means. But is this another example

629
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: of physicists not doing a great job of naming things,

630
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: Like instead of particle antiparticle, should it have been like

631
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: particle APO particle, or like opposite particle or APO charge

632
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: or like anti just seems confusing.

633
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: No, that's a fair question. Anti does seem confusing. It

634
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: feels like it's in opposition. It's like against us or something,

635
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: and they're fighting back. I do think that after understanding

636
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: something more fully, we will give things better names, definitely

637
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: different names, because we understand it more broadly and in

638
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: the right context. So, like, what would I name particles

639
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: and antiparticles with this knowledge? I would give them names

640
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: that reflect that they are part of something larger, but

641
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: that there's a symmetry there, and.

642
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: So semi particles flipp goals, flipals.

643
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: I would choose a name that reflects a for example,

644
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: a positron. It's not really its own particle, it's just

645
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: another kind of electron. And so the electron has really

646
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: two different ways to be right, there's the positive and

647
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: the negative version of the electron. They really are two

648
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: sides of the same coin. And so you can't call

649
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: the whole system an electron because we already think of

650
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: that as naming one of them. So you'd have to

651
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: come up with a totally different name, and then you'd

652
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: give them like, you know, call them one of them,

653
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: the positive the negative version of that particle, you know,

654
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: the danielon the positive and negative danielon.

655
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, let's pull ourselves out of this hole.

656
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: You and I keep digging holes and then getting stuck.

657
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: So tell me what would you do if you had

658
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: a particle that had no charge? Like, what about neutrons?

659
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: Do neutrons have flippicals?

660
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: All right, great question? And so I said earlier that

661
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: the particle antiparticle relationship is about flipping the charge, but

662
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,479
Speaker 2: it's not just flipping the electric charge. Particles also carry

663
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: a bunch of other things like Lepton number and Baryon number,

664
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 2: these things that particles keep track of and respect when

665
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 2: they have interactions. So the universe, for reasons we don't understand,

666
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 2: keeps track of like the number of electrons in the universe.

667
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: And you can't just like create or destroy electrons because

668
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 2: I would violate this rule that the number of electrons

669
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 2: can't change. We don't know why that rule exists, but

670
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: we've observed it. We know the universe respects it. And

671
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 2: so electrons carry this electron number to them and anti

672
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 2: electrons have the opposite. So when you flip a particle

673
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 2: to the antiparticle, you flip its electric charge, and also

674
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: it's Lepton number and a couple other bookkeeping numbers. All right,

675
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: but you ask a great question, which is what happens

676
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: for a particle? Was zero charge? Right? And so let's

677
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: take an easy case first, because the neutron is complicated.

678
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 2: Let's take the photon. The photon is no charge. It

679
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: also doesn't carry any of these other numbers. Lepton number,

680
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 2: bearing number all zero. So you take the photon and

681
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: you flip all those charges. When you get you get

682
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 2: the photon right. So that's why we say the photon

683
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: is its own anti particle.

684
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: It has no flippical that's right.

685
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: That sounds like a tasty afternoon frozen treat.

686
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 1: Oh it does. You're right, you're right, But that might

687
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: make people like physics more.

688
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 2: Ooh, look, the flippical truck is coming. Let's go get one. Yeahhoons.

689
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: So in that sense, like the photon is its own particle,

690
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: it's just a statement of what happens when you take

691
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: the photon and you do this transformation to it, the

692
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: one that's supposed to take you from particle to antiparticle,

693
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 2: or from antiparticle to particle. That doesn't mean that the

694
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 2: photon is an anti particle. Remember, there's nothing anti about

695
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: an antiparticle. It's about a relationship. So it has this

696
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: relationship with itself. Say, for example, that your face is

697
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: like perfectly symmetric. You're like a beauty model or whatever.

698
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: So you stand in a mirror and you flip your

699
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: image and it looks exactly the same. My face is

700
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: quite antisymmetric, like my ears higher on one side, my

701
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: beard is very differently shaped on the other side. If

702
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: you flip me then you get like the anti Daniel, right.

703
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: But if you have a perfectly symmetric face, then if

704
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: you swap left and right, you get your face right.

705
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: So you are your own antiperson. You are your own reflection.

706
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: Whereas I'm not my reflection. I see my reflection in

707
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 2: the mirror. I'm like, that's a different person, that's not me. Right.

708
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: So foson has that relationship with itself, and the same

709
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 2: is true for the Higgs boson. The same is true

710
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: for the z boson. It might be true for neutrinos.

711
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: We don't know what yeah exactly to work. Yes, so

712
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: neutrinos might be particles the way that like quarks and

713
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: electrons are in that they have anti particles, which would

714
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 2: mean they get their mass from the Higgs boson. Because

715
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: to get your mass from the Higgs, you have to

716
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: have an anti particle as well. You can't do it

717
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 2: on your own. See this is one example of how

718
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 2: like electrons and positrons are not different things. When they

719
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: get their mass from the Higgs, they work together to

720
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 2: get their mass from the Higgs. They can do it

721
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: by themselves. We don't know if neutrinos do that. If

722
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 2: they do, would be really weird, because then they would

723
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: get only a tiny little mass, which would need its

724
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: own explanation. There's a whole other fun theory about how

725
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 2: neutrinos might be their own antiparticles. It's a myron up particle,

726
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: and that would very naturally explain why they have so

727
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,479
Speaker 2: little mass. All right, so let's get to your question

728
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: about neutrons. Neutrons are neutral, hence the beautifully chosen name gold.

729
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: You have guys on that one.

730
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 2: Does that mean that they are their own antiparticle? Well, no,

731
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: because they have other charges. They carry these baryon numbers, etc.

732
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 2: And those things are not zero for the neutron. More concretely,

733
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 2: a neutron is made out of quarks, and quarks have

734
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 2: anti particles. So, for example, a neutron has one up

735
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 2: quark and two down quarks. An anti neutron has one

736
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 2: anti up and two anti down quarks. Now, they're both

737
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: electrically neutral, but they have very different internal bits and

738
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: they carry different beryon numbers. So a neutron is not

739
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 2: its own antiparticle. There is an anti neutron.

740
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: Got it? Okay, I'll admit my brain is still catching up.

741
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: My first thought was, if you have one up and

742
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: two down. Shouldn't you just have one down and two up?

743
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: But now I remember that the up and the down

744
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: have different masses, and that would be something totally different. Yeah,

745
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 1: all right, my brain caught up.

746
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: Yes, so the anti neutron is built out of the

747
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 2: anti quarks, whereas the neutron is built out of the quarks. Okay,

748
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 2: and quarks do have anti particles, they are not their

749
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 2: own antiparticles, and they have these weird electric charges one

750
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: third and two thirds. It's kind of crazy. Okay, all right,

751
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 2: So back to Reggi's question. He's asking our particles being

752
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 2: their own particles a convenience, like a mathematical constructor is

753
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 2: it something real? Well, it is a mathematical relationship between particles,

754
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: this particle antiparticle pair thing. It's a relationship. It's an

755
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 2: example of a symmetry. Some particles really are their own antiparticles,

756
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: in the sense that if you transform them from particle

757
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 2: to antiparticle, you're back to where you start. So I

758
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: hope that answers your question. And I said earlier that

759
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 2: thinking about particles and antiparticles together can help us understand

760
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 2: the universe more deeply. An example of that is that

761
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: we sort of left this whole particle antiparticle picture behind

762
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: a little bit because we've sewn particles together into a

763
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 2: more unified theory, which is quantum field theory. So we

764
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 2: don't think of particles as the fundamental basis of the

765
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 2: universe anymore. We think of them as ripples in fields.

766
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: And there's an opportunity here to recognize that electrons, for example,

767
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: and positrons have a deep relationship because in quantum field theory,

768
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 2: they don't come from two different fields. They come from

769
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 2: the same field. There is just the one field that

770
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 2: can do two different kinds of ripples. One of those

771
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 2: ripples is the electron. The other ripple is the positron.

772
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: So you see how they're deeply, deeply woven together, and

773
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: that's reflected naturally and natively in quantum field theory. And

774
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: so identifying that relationship is more than just like, hey,

775
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 2: this is a cute construct or this is a cute

776
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: thing we discovered. It was a clue towards understanding universe

777
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: much more deeply. So the electromagnetic field, for example, which

778
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: has the photon as its particle, can only ripple in

779
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: one way. It ripples like the photon. There's no other

780
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 2: way for it to ripple that you would call an antiphoton.

781
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: And so we have different kinds of fields can do

782
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 2: different kind of ripples, and that's why some particles are

783
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: their own antiparticles and some particles are not. But all

784
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 2: of them I hope will buy from Kelly's flipperon afternoon

785
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: treat truck when it comes around.

786
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: I hope so too. Well, I could use a drink.

787
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: So let's take a break and see what rechead say

788
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: about this very informative answer.

789
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 5: Thank you, Daniel. That really does answer my question, especially

790
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 5: understanding that this is all coming from quantum field theory

791
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 5: that helps visualize why particles and antiparticles always annihilate being

792
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 5: there from the same quantum field. Although now that I

793
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 5: think about it, I think there was a slightly deeper

794
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 5: question that I did not properly articulate when I was

795
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 5: asking whether this is a mathematical convenience. I think what

796
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 5: was going through my mind was is this just a

797
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 5: way for scientists to say that every single particle has

798
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 5: an anti particle, even if it doesn't have a countercharge particle,

799
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 5: just to make it better for the standard model, or

800
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 5: does that actually do something practical, as in it defines

801
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 5: how it interacts in some way in the math or something.

802
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. What's the benefit of calling

803
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 2: a photon its own antiparticle? Does it matter? Ha ha, Well,

804
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: there's no practical benefit. It's not necessary for the standard model,

805
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: and it doesn't change its predictions at all. It's just

806
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: a matter haha of consistency. Because particle and antiparticles are

807
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: a relationship rather than a label or an assignment. It

808
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 2: makes logical and mathematical sense to say the photon has

809
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: this relationship with itself, as opposed to electrons that have

810
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: that relationship with positrons. But it makes no practical difference.

811
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 2: If you instead said particles and anti particles just don't

812
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 2: apply to neutral things like photons, that would change nothing

813
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: about physics.

814
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: All right, man, Doug had some questions.

815
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: This is the episode about drinking stuff. To Kelly, what

816
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 2: were you sipping while you were working in this is

817
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: like a nice Earl gray tea or bubbly water.

818
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: It was bubbly water without a lot of salts in it.

819
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: And let's you know, let's go ahead and listen to

820
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: all of Doug's questions and then We'll dig in a

821
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: little bit.

822
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 3: More, all right, Hi, Daniel and Kelly. Ocean water is

823
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 3: too so for us to drink. We end up thirstier

824
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 3: than before we drank it. But salt water fish, sea turtles, seals, walruses, dolphins,

825
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 3: and whales live in it just fine. There must also

826
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 3: be saltwater tolerant birds. Are there saltwater tolerant land animals,

827
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 3: which animals that currently find the ocean water too salty,

828
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 3: evolved from animals that lived before the ocean was as

829
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 3: salty as now, which evolved away from salt water tolerance

830
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 3: because they found freshwater sources ponds, lakes, and rivers, which

831
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 3: species live near the mouths of streams and rivers in

832
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 3: order to get a drink that's not too salty. Our

833
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 3: cells are saltier than fresh water, but not as salty

834
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: as the ocean. Do saltwater tolerant species just have saltier

835
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: cells or do their bodies desalinate the water when we

836
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 3: eat a salt water fish? Do we need to drink

837
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 3: extra water to offset the extra salt? What would it

838
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 3: take to make a saltwater tolerance species from a non

839
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 3: salt water tolerant species. Could scientists implant a gene like

840
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 3: the one that made fluorescent fish.

841
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: All right, Doug is very curious about salt water, and

842
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: I'm often one to that myself. You know, like you're

843
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 2: in the ocean, you can die of thirst, water, water everywhere,

844
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 2: and not a drop to drink.

845
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 1: That's right.

846
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 2: Why is that? Kelly? Tell us?

847
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: Wow, how literate?

848
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 4: And so?

849
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 5: Uh?

850
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: How literary? I mean, I know you're literary.

851
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: Is that benefit there?

852
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: That's right, That's right. He's gonna judge us somehow. But okay,

853
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 1: So what problems are caused by salt water?

854
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 2: Yeah?

855
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: The answer is a lot of them, all right. So

856
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: there's this idea that you try to reach equal concentrations

857
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: of things like salt on both sides of permeable membranes

858
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: like our cells. So a permeable membrane is a membrane

859
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: where something can go across it in either direction. And

860
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 1: so if you have fresh water on one side of

861
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: the permeable membrane and salt water on the other, the

862
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 1: salt is going to flow over to the freshwater side

863
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: until it's reached an equilibrium. Does that make sense?

864
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 2: All right? So I think you're telling me that when

865
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 2: you have salt water near fresh water that the salt

866
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: molecules don't like to stay on one side. They like

867
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: to spread out and things get sloshed around evenly.

868
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, we have and this is surprisingly consistent across

869
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: different cells and different organisms. Like a set amount of

870
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: potassium ions in our cells and a set amount of sodium.

871
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: So salt is sodium chloride. And so if you have

872
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: salt water and you have a set amount of salt

873
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: inside of your cell, but then you surround that cell

874
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: in a salt your environment, you're gonna end up with

875
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: a bunch of salt going into the cell. Okay, And

876
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: this can cause a lot of different problems. One of

877
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: the problems has to do with protein folding. So folks

878
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: might remember that we had Benjamin de Bevor on the

879
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 1: show and Daniel and Benjamin had this conversation about.

880
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: How I'm terrified because I don't remember this.

881
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it was fascinating. Fascinating. So you make a

882
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: protein and proteins have these charges, and based on the charges,

883
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: that determines how they fold up, and the way a

884
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: protein folds up impacts what that protein does. Does that

885
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: make sense, Yeah, okay, So a lot of what's holding

886
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: that protein together are pretty weak charges, and so if

887
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: you end up with a bunch of charge sodium particles

888
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: in an environment, that can pull your proteins apart, and

889
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: now they no longer have the right shape, they can't

890
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: do the things that they're supposed to do. This can

891
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: also mess with the way that DNA holds itself together

892
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: and folds up. And so basically, if you start ending

893
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,720
Speaker 1: up with a bunch of extra charge particles going in there,

894
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: it messes up the way all of the stuff inside

895
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,439
Speaker 1: the cell is sort of held together, and it can't

896
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: do what it needs to do anymore.

897
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: All right, So, so far I understand that if you're

898
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 2: in a salt water bath, you're gonna end up absorbing

899
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: that salt, and that having too much salt inside you

900
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 2: messes up some of the basic biochemistry, like how TENA

901
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: gets turned into proteins and how those proteins do their job. Yep,

902
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 2: I guess I'm confused because I thought life began in

903
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 2: the ocean, and I thought of us land creatures as

904
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: basically walking bags of ocean, bringing that environment with us.

905
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 2: But now you're telling me that like salt water in

906
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 2: the ocean is bad for life. How does that work.

907
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: So salt concentrations are not the same everywhere you go.

908
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: Salt environments can vary from less than one part per

909
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: thousand of sodium chloride or salt in the water to

910
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: over four hundred parts per thousand in super saline environments,

911
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: and so basically the thing that you need to know

912
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: there doesn't really matter what those numbers are. There's just

913
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: tons of variability. And so if our bodies are adapted

914
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: to a certain amount of salt in our cells and

915
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 1: maybe that reflects our salt water past, we're still wanting

916
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: to move between a bunch of different kinds of environments

917
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: with different concentrations of salt. So just because we do

918
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: okay at one concentration doesn't mean we'll do okay at

919
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: all concentrations. Plus, you and I are very far removed

920
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 1: from our salt environments, and so we don't have super

921
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: great ways of dealing with excess amounts of salt. So

922
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: our kidneys do what they can to remove salt from

923
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: our blood so that it doesn't go throughout our bodies

924
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: and mess with all of our other cells. So it

925
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: removes the salt from our blood, and then you pee

926
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: excess salt out, so if you have too much salt

927
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: in your diet, your kidneys try to remove it and

928
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: pee out the extra so that you can maintain the

929
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: right concentration. Does that make sense.

930
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you're telling me that Daniel's picture of we

931
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: all came from the sea is to naive because we've

932
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: come from a wide variety of different environments with more

933
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 2: salt or less salt, and we've evolved so that our

934
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: chemical processes do what we need to and that requires

935
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: a certain salt concentration which might be different from what

936
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 2: we encounter. And so our kidneys and our bodies do

937
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: their job to try to maintain the right salt concentration.

938
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: But it's tough, yeah, I mean. And also, we and

939
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: many organisms live in environments where salt concentrations fluctuate.

940
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 2: Right, right, exactly, and so you've got to be a

941
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:58,479
Speaker 2: little bit robust to it.

942
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, you need to be robust it. And

943
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: so the way mammals are robust to it is we

944
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: have kidneys that try to extract salt, and we've consumed.

945
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 2: Too much salt, like pizza night.

946
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: Like pizza night, or Ramen Knite. Gotta love ramen Nite.

947
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 2: That's why it's so good, I know, so good, and then.

948
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,439
Speaker 1: My blood pressure is like ooo through the roof because

949
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: too much salt is bad for you. Okay. So, but

950
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 1: Doug had a lot of questions about how different animals

951
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: respond to this, okay, and these are great questions and

952
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: I learned a lot. Okay. So one of the questions

953
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: was about what happens if you have like turtles or

954
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: birds or animals that like are you know, maybe not fish,

955
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: that are encountering a lot of salt. How do they

956
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: deal with it? And the answer is that a lot

957
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: of these animals have glands in their face where when

958
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: you first take the salt in like maybe you're taking

959
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 1: a drink of salt water, it actively extracts the salt

960
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: out of the water and concentrates it so that it

961
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: can then get like extracted through specialized holes in the head.

962
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: So for example, Wow, there are marine iguanas in the

963
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: Glopagus Islands that can like live on land, but they

964
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: also swim in the water and they extract the salt

965
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: out of the water that they're like, you know, consuming

966
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: while they're eating plants underwater and stuff like that, and

967
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: then like a snot rocket, they shoot it out of

968
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: their face and you should watch venuos of this because

969
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: it's crazy. And apparently they sometimes use it to like

970
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 1: scare off predators or mess with competitors. But they're like

971
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: and then there's salts, like big chunks of salt, like

972
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: spray it out of their face with some snot, and

973
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: it is gloriously disgusting.

974
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 2: Snot rocket is a great name, though. Yeah, it makes

975
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 2: me wonder if it's one of the things you're selling

976
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 2: in your flippical truck.

977
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: Oh well, you know, why not? And so anyway, okay,

978
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: so birds also, like so birds that eat salty fish

979
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: also have these glands that actively pull salt out of

980
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: stuff and then concentrate the salt and then expel the

981
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 1: salt through these holes in like their beak. The way

982
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: sharks do it is their bodies actively pull out salt

983
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: and then they excrete concentrated salt out of their rectum.

984
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: WHOA, Yeah, that's not a salt rocket. That's something else.

985
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, out of a rectal gland. Not just their rectum,

986
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 1: but a rectal gland. It's a poop rocket. It's a.

987
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 2: It's a salty fart. I don't know.

988
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's too, that's too. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm not.

989
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm selling that in my ice cream truck. So,

990
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: and sometimes if you see turtles that live in the ocean,

991
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: like eating jellyfish or whatever, and then they come up

992
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: to lay their eggs on land, it looks like they're crying.

993
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: And what's happening is they have glands near their eyes

994
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: where they excrete the salt out from like the sides

995
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: of their eyes, and so it looks like they're crying.

996
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: They've got tears, but they're just excreting the salt and

997
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 1: high concentrations out of their face.

998
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 2: Wow.

999
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: Okay, so how do fish do it? Fish are kind

1000
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 1: of amazing. So fish have this very energetically expensive process

1001
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: where their gills are able to tinker with the amount

1002
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,720
Speaker 1: of sodium and potassium that's like getting into the body.

1003
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 2: Wow, how did they do that?

1004
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: I'm not going into detailed biochemistry of giving you the

1005
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: broad strokes man. There were a lot of questions here,

1006
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: So all right, So what they do, Like, if you're

1007
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: in a freshwater environment, you actually need to hold onto

1008
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: salts because there might not be enough salt in the

1009
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:29,879
Speaker 1: water to help you maintain the salt that you need

1010
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 1: inside of your cells, and so cells in the gills

1011
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: in those cases are pulling salt in. But if you

1012
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: are in a salt water environment, there might be too

1013
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: much salt, and so those cells in the gills are

1014
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: actively pushing or keeping salt or sodium ions out. But

1015
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: fish are able to what's called remodel their gills depending

1016
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: on their environment. So there are fish that go from

1017
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:58,879
Speaker 1: fresh water to salt water or salt water to fresh water,

1018
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: depending on what's stage of their life they're in. And

1019
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 1: as they start to change salinity, their gills can kill

1020
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: off cells that do one function, for example, try to

1021
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 1: suck up the sodium ions and then replace them with

1022
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: cells that do the opposite thing, like cells that try

1023
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 1: to kick out the sodium ions.

1024
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 2: Wow, how quickly can they do that?

1025
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: A couple days? Takes like one to three days or something.

1026
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: But like, still, that's amazing, Like they've got this procedure

1027
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: for like killing off cells that are not doing what

1028
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: they need them to do right now and replacing them

1029
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,959
Speaker 1: with cells that do the correct thing. But it's worth

1030
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: noting that this is very energetically expensive. And so if

1031
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: you take a fish and you move it from a

1032
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: saltwater environment to a freshwater environment and needs to do

1033
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: all of this remodeling. It might reduce its energy because

1034
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: now it doesn't have energy to move around as much.

1035
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: Because its body is using its energy to kill off

1036
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: some cells and build new ones, it might grow more slowly,

1037
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: it might have fewer babies. It's very stressful for an

1038
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: organism to adapt to a different kind of environment or

1039
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,959
Speaker 1: to fix the damage that happens to their body after

1040
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: they've been put in the wrong kind of environment. So,

1041
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: for example, if you're exposed to a high salt water environment,

1042
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: in your proteins start to like change their configuration. There's

1043
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: some things that you can do. So sometimes you need

1044
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: to kill that cell if things are just too much

1045
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: of a mess and be like no starting over. But

1046
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: there are proteins you can make called heat shock proteins

1047
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: that help you sort of put things back together. And

1048
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: so the point is animals have ways for dealing with

1049
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. But whenever you're asking them to

1050
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 1: make a change, or if you're just asking them to

1051
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: live in super saltwater environments in general, that takes a

1052
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: lot of calories and energy to be actively moderating the

1053
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: concentration of salt inside of the body.

1054
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that makes a lot of sense. That doesn't

1055
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 2: seem like an easy thing to switch to do. I

1056
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 2: can't just like switch to being able to drink salt

1057
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 2: water no matter how much energy I spend.

1058
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you'd be a gonner, total gonner. Doug had

1059
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: a great question about animals that are in environments that

1060
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 1: are changing their salinity, and this is a really relevant

1061
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: question right now because as global climate change just happening,

1062
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 1: you get environments where salt water is inundating land and

1063
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: areas that were once freshwater. And part of that is

1064
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,320
Speaker 1: because sea levels are rising as things like icebergs are melting,

1065
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 1: and so as seawater gets farther inland and gets into

1066
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: like ponds and lakes and streams and stuff that used

1067
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: to be fresh water, you now have a lot of

1068
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: animals that are encountering salt water that weren't meant to

1069
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 1: encounter salt water. And global climate change is changing where

1070
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: you end up getting a lot of precipitation, So you

1071
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: get some environments that used to be super salty, but

1072
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: if they get a lot of extra rain, then that

1073
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: water becomes dilute and now it doesn't have as much

1074
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: salt as it had before. Makes sense, and so the

1075
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 1: question is what's happening to these animals. Some animals are

1076
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: just paying a higher energetic cost, and their body is

1077
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 1: able to adapt and deal with it, but more of

1078
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: their energy is going towards just trying to survive. And

1079
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: this environment that has different amounts of salt than it

1080
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: had before.

1081
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: And is the salinity changing kind of rapidly like a

1082
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 2: huge rainstorm and now it's more fresh, and then a

1083
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 2: drought and it gradually gets salty and salty.

1084
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: It depends on where you are and how much the

1085
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: what kind of volume of water you're working with, and so,

1086
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: you know, like a huge volume of water, it can

1087
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: take a long time to change the salinity of that.

1088
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: But if you're you know, working in a pretty small

1089
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: pond and then it gets inundated by the ocean for

1090
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,439
Speaker 1: the first time, that can be a pretty massive change

1091
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: in salinity.

1092
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 2: So it depends.

1093
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 1: So it depends. So there was a paper that was

1094
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: looking at what animals are most susceptible to like essentially

1095
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: dying during these changes, and they found things like freshwater turtles. Oh,

1096
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: I know, I love freshwater turtles, but they've got if

1097
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 1: there's freshwater bodies that they can get to in the area.

1098
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 1: They can behaviorally deal with this, but you know, you've

1099
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 1: got to make sure they got somewhere to go. Fish

1100
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 1: often do a pretty good job of dealing with it

1101
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: because they can do this gill remodeling. Not all species

1102
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: can do that, but fish as a group seem to

1103
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 1: be pretty well placed to deal with global climate change.

1104
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's going to be a lot of

1105
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: people who are like, no, they're not. Fish have a

1106
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: lot of other things to worry about.

1107
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 2: Also, they got mortgages, they got kid stories.

1108
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, I'm going to backpedal and say that

1109
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 1: global climate change is going to be catastrophic for a

1110
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: lot of fish species. Some of them will be able

1111
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: to handle the changes in salinity better than others.

1112
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 2: All right.

1113
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: Other animals that are pretty susceptible are zoplankton. So these

1114
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: are little like aquatic crustaceans. And you might be like

1115
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: a little aquatic crustaceans, I can't even see them. Who cares?

1116
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: Point is you need them to difind.

1117
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 2: I'm not so callous. I like those little aquatic crustaceans.

1118
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: I saw you yawn when I said zoplankton I saw it.

1119
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: I saw it.

1120
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: I was gonna yawn at that moment. Anyway, I love zooplankton.

1121
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 2: Really tell me.

1122
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: More well that they are food for lots of other things.

1123
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: So maybe the fish can handle the salinity changes, but

1124
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 1: they might not be able to handle their food which

1125
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: couldn't handle the salinity changes biting the dust. So these

1126
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 1: things are complicated.

1127
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the whole ecosystem is sensitive to salt, right,

1128
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 2: so it makes sense that as things are changing, everything

1129
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 2: is going to get skewed.

1130
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, that's right. And amphibie are also particularly sensitive

1131
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: because their skin is like particularly permeable, and so you know,

1132
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: if they're in a more salt water environment, that salt

1133
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 1: is going to like rush through their skin and get

1134
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: into their bodies. Yeah, all right, So let's say this

1135
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: is Doug's last question. He wanted to know if you

1136
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: could make a salt water tolerant species tolerant to fresh water. Essentially,

1137
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 1: could you take a gene and make it so that

1138
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: an organism that was freshwater could now live in salt water,

1139
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: or an organism that was adapted to salt water can

1140
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:30,959
Speaker 1: now live in fresh water.

1141
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, good question.

1142
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: I Yeah, great question. I think the answer is not

1143
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: a gene. I don't think we understand this at the

1144
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: gene level, right, But like what we've talked about requires

1145
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 1: multiple levels, and these are very complicated mechanisms where more

1146
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: than one thing is going on. So like for the

1147
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: gill remodeling, there's some genes that are associated with destroying

1148
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 1: the old cells, other cells that are associated with building

1149
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: in the new cells. And I don't think we have

1150
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 1: all of those genes identified. And even if we did,

1151
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 1: genes usually have multiple functions, So if you took a

1152
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: bunch of genes from one species and move them into another,

1153
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: you could like mess up a bunch of stuff. And

1154
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: so I don't think that we could at the moment

1155
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: with what we know, turn a freshwater species into a

1156
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: totally saltwater species, or as saltwater species into a totally

1157
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: freshwater species with genetic engineering.

1158
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 2: Maybe one day, because every organism is a huge Rube

1159
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 2: Goldberg machine that we do not understand. And we can

1160
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 2: mash the buttons, but there's like millions of them, so

1161
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 2: who knows what knobs you have to turn to make

1162
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 2: things happen.

1163
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: I would like to get a shirt that says that

1164
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: and it has you know quote by Daniel Daniel and

1165
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: Kelly's Extraordinary Universe, and there's a Daniel you'll quote because uh, One,

1166
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: I totally agree. And two the number of times listeners

1167
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 1: write to me and say, as Daniel says, our body

1168
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: is a huge group Goldberg machine or whatever, and I'm like, yes, yes,

1169
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: Daniel says that, and they're totally right. I'm not tired

1170
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 1: of hearing about it. I'm just like, man, that thing,

1171
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 1: that Daniel, it really sticks with people.

1172
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 2: Okay, that's funny. I didn't realize that.

1173
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 1: Well.

1174
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 2: I'm feeling totally pickled and thoroughly brind and marinating in

1175
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 2: this answer. Let's see if it works for the listener.

1176
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 3: So, to summarize, all Earth animals must have a similar

1177
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 3: level of cell saltiness, otherwise proteins and DNA wouldn't work right.

1178
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 3: Salt water tolerant animals evolved organs and processes to eject

1179
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 3: excess salt. Animals that are not salt water tolerant likely

1180
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 3: evolved away from tolerance due to local abundant fresh water sources.

1181
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 3: To make a non salt water tolerant species into a

1182
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 3: salt water tolerance species, you'd have to add or modify

1183
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 3: a whole organ system and perhaps teach the animal to

1184
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 3: use it a tall order. Indeed, I'm still wondering whether

1185
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 3: life evolved in a less salty ocean and how do

1186
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 3: single cell life, plankton and plants tolerate salt, But that

1187
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 3: can wait for another episode.

1188
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 2: Thanks all right, Thank you very much to everybody who

1189
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 2: writes to us, who engages us with your curiosity. We

1190
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 2: will ferment your questions. We will pickle ourselves in your conundrums.

1191
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 2: We really want to scratch your itches. We want to

1192
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 2: reflect on it. We want to show you the beautiful symmetry.

1193
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 1: Of the universe, or we want to be able to

1194
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,479
Speaker 1: say it depends in a whole new context. So please

1195
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 1: send your questions to questions at Daniel and Kelly dot org.

1196
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: We look forward to hearing from you.

1197
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 2: Thanks everybody for listening. Please go and do us a

1198
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 2: favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using.

1199
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 2: It really helps people find us.

1200
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 1: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing

1201
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: Matt Kesselman.

1202
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 2: He really is a wizard. You can also find us

1203
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 2: online on Blue Sky, Instagram, and x D and K Universe.

1204
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: Come engage with us, you can email us at questions

1205
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:02,439
Speaker 1: at Daniel and Kelly dot org. We really do want

1206
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 1: to hear from you, and you.

1207
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: Can find our website www dot danieland Kelly dot org,

1208
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 2: where you'll also find an invitation to join our discord

1209
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 2: where everybody comes and talks about the amazing.

1210
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 1: Universe, and we also have the most amazing moderators. This

1211
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 1: is an iHeart podcast. Thanks for joining us.