1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: We have a sun named Henry as well, also enjoys 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: the hot pocket now and then I tried to make them. 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: I tried to make them because I was like, Okay, 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: if you're gonna like a hot pocket, it's not that 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: far off like a CalCon so that's been feeding Italians 6 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: from time immemorial, So perhaps we should just have a 7 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: girl making a hot bookt And Henry was like, what 8 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 1: is the Italian word for kelson and men again? And 9 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: I was like sock And he was like, yeah, mom, 10 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: you made a sock to taste like a sock. Nice. Hello, 11 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: I'm Mini driver. Welcome to Many Questions Season two. I've 12 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: always loved Cruce's question. It was originally a nineteenth century 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: Harlag game where players would ask each other thirty five 14 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: questions aimed at revealing the other player's true nature. It's 15 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: just the scientific method really. In asking different people the 16 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: same set of questions, you can make observations about which 17 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: truths appeared to be universal. I love this discipline, and 18 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: it made me wonder, what if these questions were just 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: the jumping off point, what greater depths would be revealed 20 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: if I ask these questions as conversation starters with thought 21 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: leaders and trailblazers across all these different disciplines. So I 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: adapted prus questionnaire and I wrote my own seven questions 23 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 1: that I personally think a pertinent to a person's story. 24 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: They are when and where were you happiest? What is 25 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: the quality you like least about yourself? What relationship, real 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: or fictionalized, defines love for you? What question would you 27 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: most like answered, What person, place, or experience has shaped 28 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: you the most? What would be your last meal? And 29 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: can you tell me something in your life that's grown 30 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: out of a personal disaster. And I've gathered a group 31 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: of really remarkable people, ones that I am honored and 32 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: humbled to have had the chance to engage with. You 33 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: may not hear their answers to all seven of these questions. 34 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: We've whittled it down to which questions felt closest to 35 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: their experience, or the most surprising, or created the most 36 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: fertile ground to connect. My guest today is the author 37 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: Anthony Door, whose book All the Light We Cannot See 38 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: One the Pulitzer Prize. This, it turns out, is not 39 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: surprising at all if you have ever read a single 40 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: word he has written. His more recent novel claud Cuckoo 41 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: Land is genuinely one of my favorite books ever, and 42 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: the level of lyricism present in his writing is there 43 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: when he speaks to I wrote down so many things 44 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: he said all the way through the interview, you know, 45 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: as though the whole thing wasn't being recorded and I 46 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: had to take notes. I hope you enjoyed this conversation 47 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: as much as I did. I'm very interested. Do you 48 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: mean to start up with since my mother died? But 49 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: since my mother died, I think about the things that 50 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: I didn't realize until after she'd gone, that went into 51 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: the basic architecture, the stuff that was impassing, rather than 52 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: the big moments. And it was weird. It was like 53 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: it was like having the foundation of something revealed when 54 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: I'd really just been looking at the building the whole time, 55 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: this beautiful building, because she was this amazing person. It's 56 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: been like this weird posthumous gift to feel all these 57 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: other things. So now when I do something and my 58 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: son rolls his eyes and like things that I'm super 59 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: embarrassing and that we've spent five hours making a sock, 60 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: I do go. Now you know what he's going to 61 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: remember this because we listened to New Order while we 62 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: made this cow zone and we chatted about some something 63 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: that's so interesting, because that's kind of the lesson for 64 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: like beginning writers want to write about the big architecture, 65 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, they want to write about love for what 66 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: it feels to be confused. But the only way to 67 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: deliver that to another person is through detail, through like 68 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: these moment by moment details of life. That's how memories 69 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: get built, you know, is New Order and making a 70 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: cow zone exactly. And you know what, I had this 71 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: teacher who I dedicated my book to my English teachers. 72 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: My three teachers were so huge in my life as 73 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: a whole, but Alistair one of them. On a Monday morning, 74 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: a piece of a four paper would be posted on 75 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: the notice board in my school from the age of 76 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: ten onwards, and there would be a list in his 77 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: really beautiful, strange italic handwriting, and it would be like 78 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: drinking a cup of tea, tying my shoelaces, getting out 79 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: of bed, and you had to write two sides of 80 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: a four describing this extraordinarily mundane thing. And he was like, 81 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: this is just like exercise. He was like, this is 82 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: the same as you're running around playing fields, playing hockey, basketball, 83 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: whatever it is. So many years later, when I was 84 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: still working my way through the anthology of what he 85 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: told me to read in my Life, he said it 86 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: was about getting you to pay attention to not just 87 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: having to do this thing. The thing was not the thing, 88 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: but to your life, to all those things that it 89 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: would trigger that whenever you noticed something, it would trigger 90 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: the memory of your interest in the fact that you've 91 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: had that muscle built in from an early age to 92 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: appreciate it and to be able to kind of develop 93 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: ideas from it. Yeah, detail is how you communicate with people. 94 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: If you had said I had this teacher our stair 95 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: he was meaningful to me, that would kind of bounce 96 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: off me. But if you describe his handwriting and you 97 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: describe this list on his door and the details of 98 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: what he was asking you to do, described telling your shoelaces, 99 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: it means something to me. That's how you communicate a motion. 100 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: It's ironically it's like you're reaching for the stars. But 101 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: the way to do it is like the tiny little 102 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: pieces of broken glass on the ground, and that we 103 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: keep retrieving memory, Like I've just moved back to the 104 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: town that I'm from. I don't like how it feels 105 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: because I don't feel like I can make new memories here. 106 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm so in the trough of what went before and 107 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by At the same time, it's feeling incredibly sad. 108 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: It feels palpable. I keep asking everybody, how do you 109 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: create new memories in a totally familiar environment. That's super interesting. 110 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: It makes me think about Germans and like the seventies 111 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: trying to deal with like the weight of the memory 112 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: of all the stuff that had happened, and you're just 113 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: trying to listen to music and be eighteen years old, 114 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: and there's always this impulse to renew. I mean, I 115 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: think that's what's so beautifu. Those grass always ends up 116 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: growing over the battlefields and it's so important to remember 117 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: that blood was spilled there, but at the same time 118 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: allow space for young people to move around. So our 119 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: twin boys just went off to college. Oh wow, Yeah, 120 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: I worry so much about you know, this world, Like 121 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: I keep saying, like a little world's warming up, oh, 122 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: and like it's gonna get worse. You know, he doesn't 123 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: need that, he needs to be able to go make 124 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: new memories and discover the world anew and go to 125 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: a party as if it was like the first time 126 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: anybody ever went to a party? Did you go to 127 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: any good parties? And what you're busy going? Can you 128 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: believe the ice caps? Not? What about that Kappa Kappa 129 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: gamma that's totally it? Yeah, And then his mom's like, 130 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: ask him about COVID. She's like the cherry on top, 131 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: that's really funny. Well, God, I'd better get on because 132 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: I could really just ask you about a thousand questions 133 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with these seven questions, but 134 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: I will glean all the answers that I would like 135 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: to ask you. If these having questions allow a ski, 136 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: will you tell me where and when you were happiest? 137 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: Of course I thought about it. I'm gonna choose a 138 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: general when, but a specific where I love to ski. 139 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: I live in Idaho, in the mountains in the United States, 140 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: one of the last places middle class families can still ski, 141 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: and you know afford it. We raised our boy skiing 142 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: on this mountain called Brundage Mountain, about two hours north 143 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: of here, where you know, they just put a keg 144 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: of beer in the snow and like grill Hamburgers and 145 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: you could still get a seasons pass for about two bucks. 146 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: Oh my god. There's something about joy for me that's 147 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: always connected to the ephemeral, and for me, it's fresh 148 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: snow is like this great reminder of it, when the 149 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: whole world's like made new again by a big dump 150 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: of fresh white snow. To be there with my boys, 151 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: like moving downhill, there's some joy and speed are linked 152 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: in my head too for some reason. But skiing through 153 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: fresh snow like your joints filled twenty years younger, because 154 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: you can just land without pain and moving and hearing 155 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: them like whooping. You can hear like the joy of 156 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: other people. And you know what's gonna go away. It's 157 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: going to get tracked up, but I'll get too warm. 158 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: The moment of freshnow is unpredictable. You just have to 159 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: be lucky enough to be there when it comes, and 160 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: then to feel yourself dancing. It's really a kind of 161 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: dance moving down through that all of your troubles kind 162 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: of vanished and evaporate, and you're just present in the 163 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: now and you're creating like you're dancing. Is especially if 164 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: there are trees you're dancing down through them, so you're 165 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: kind of improvising and making music in your head. It's 166 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: really sharing that with somebody is so special. Oh my god, 167 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: for how you describe that. It is so akin to 168 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: the ocean. I mean, I know that snow is visited 169 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: upon us and the oceans are always there, But that's feeling. 170 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: That is what surfing is like. For me. Everything feels young. 171 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: It's only the next day when you feel your knees 172 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: and my shoulders in my back and the thing in 173 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: that moment, that's it. And the waves aren't always predictive, 174 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: but me you're waiting to see what way will common. 175 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes they aren't there and sometimes they're too big, and 176 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: so it's very very similar. Yeah, and you're using gravity 177 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: the forces of nature to move you through an environment 178 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: something so deeply human. It connects us to our ancestors. Yeah, 179 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: it really does. It really does that. Moving through nature, 180 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: particularly like the mountains, feel particularly sort of atavistic because 181 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: there's it's so much to do with survival, Like I 182 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: don't know, the part of my brain is always on 183 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: a mountain or high up or on a glacier like 184 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: super super super, more turned on than it is anywhere else, 185 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: even in the ocean where I know that there are 186 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: great white sharks. They swim right by me to go 187 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: up to the seal colony and eat their breakfast. It's 188 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: not switched on in the same way as it is 189 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: in the mountains. It's funny, but there is always a 190 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: thread of injury. There's always there's something that makes you 191 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: feel a little more alive. I'm not chasing like down 192 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: crazy cool wars or something, but a little bit of 193 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: threat of danger does help keep you kind of present 194 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: and in a mind like mine that's always like what 195 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: do I have to do next Friday? Or why can't 196 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: I solve this problem in the book I'm working on 197 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: right now, to just be present is something I'm chasing, 198 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: and it's always so leading, you know. I just want 199 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: to grab on that and remember, like, my boys are 200 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: going to get bigger, you know, they won't always ski 201 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: with me. I'm going to get older, sort of have 202 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: those moments when you get to be with them and 203 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: to try to appreciate them for what they are before 204 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: they're gone. Yes, my son barely looked over I mean 205 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: he did, but he did barely look over his shoulder 206 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: when he went off on this camping trip. His first 207 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: week back at school, and I was like, I carry 208 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: him around in my pocket if I could, Like I 209 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: would be in the back of his class, being like 210 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: this an agent ron great, Like I'd be you want 211 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: to sit together at what should we have the lunch? 212 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: Like I would be his worst night matter if I 213 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: possibly could. But I called his name out, and I 214 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: must have There must have been something. You know how 215 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: when you hear someone shout and you can tell that 216 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 1: they're in vain, you know it's not a shriek of 217 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: Joe way, You really know that they've trodden on the 218 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: thumb tack or stuff. That time, I must have said 219 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: his name with something in it, because he turned around 220 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: so quickly, and I sort of like cheshire cat grinned 221 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: at him, and he was like, mom, it's gonna be okay. Yeah, 222 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: And then I asked him if I was damaging him. Well, yeah, 223 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: we just we have twin boys. Will just drop them 224 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: off at college, so it's like the same thing. God, 225 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: that must have been really hard. Your whole job is 226 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: to get them to live on their own, and yet 227 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: you're trying to make your deepest emotional connection of your 228 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: life really over and over with them and then you're 229 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: expected to kind of say okay and let them go. Yeah, 230 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: let them go. I know it's way more evolved than 231 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: humans actually are, which makes me feel like we used 232 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: to be so evolved, because clearly we used to do it, 233 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: We've been doing it for this long, but like it 234 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: doesn't hasn't gotten any easier, Like how come everything else 235 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: is supposed to evolve and there are these things that 236 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: just do not. It never becomes easier, or you can't 237 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: intellectual qualify. Maybe we didn't evolve to send our kids 238 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: three thousand miles away at the university. There's a lot 239 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: of things that are kind of artificial demands that modern 240 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: life puts on us that maybe our ancestors didn't have 241 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: to deal with. I think, you know, we would be 242 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: around our elders a lot more, we would be around 243 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: our grown kids. And the way we segment kids in schools, 244 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: for example, like all the twelve year old shipped together now, 245 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: but the village is like kids of all different ages 246 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: would be helping each other. The three year olds would 247 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: be attended by the nine year olds, and the fifteen 248 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: year olds are helping the nine year olds. Sometimes I wonder, 249 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: you know, all this segmentation in the distance. You know, 250 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: our kids got into so called good universities, but they're 251 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: far from home, and maybe that's a little artificial, I 252 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: know for people listening. Clokkleland is honestly one of my 253 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: favorite books I ever read, and the part that I 254 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: cried in the most was one of may is leaving home, 255 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: being forced to leave with his cattle, yeah, and knowing 256 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: that he will never see them again. This idea that 257 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: even if one returns. There was something particularly unbearable about 258 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: how going to I don't know how far Constantinople was 259 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: from where his woods were, probably only three hundred and 260 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: fifty miles, but you know, in those days, that's forever. 261 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: The whole book really is about returning and how you 262 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: can never step in the same river twice, and yet 263 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: that's part of life. Like letting your son go off camping. 264 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: You know he'll come back slightly changed and he'll still 265 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: need you for a few more years, but you have 266 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: to celebrate his growing independence even as he's pushing against 267 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: those boundaries that you're building around him. Our boys need 268 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: to go build new families, new tribes, and they're not 269 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: rejecting us. We're not losing them as much as kind 270 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: of sharing them with other people. As what I keep 271 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: trying to tell myself. Anyway, you're a little bit ahead 272 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: in terms of like the college thing, but Henry goes 273 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: to boarding schools. There is something of them like going 274 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: off and taking what you've given them out into the 275 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: world and saying, this is what we did. This was 276 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: the point was to build good, strong, kind, intellectually curious, 277 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: independent people who can go out and be a nice 278 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: addition to whatever environment they find themselves in. Yeah, that's 279 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: so BEAUTIFU fleet put, that's a kindness. I mean, I 280 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: think we're successful if we build kind people for the 281 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: next generation. Yeah, I mean I will saw later obviously, 282 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: but I will remember these what relationship real or fictionalized? 283 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: De find love fear? This was your hardest of your questions. 284 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: I've been reading a lot about Rachel Carson. Her most 285 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: famous book was called Silent Spring. It came out in 286 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: the sixties, and as she was dying of cancer, she 287 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: made a very persuasive and emotional and beautifully written to 288 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: argument that d d T this pesticide that humans were 289 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: spring everywhere, was going to lead to a silent spring. 290 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: It thins that the shells of bird eggs, and so 291 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: it really makes bird reproduction complicated. You know, it's an insecticide. 292 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: In World War Two, it arrived as like this magic 293 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: silver bullet that could eradicate, especially during war when everybody's 294 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: all close together, these diseases that you know, these awful 295 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: pandemics that were occurring, especially saying Naples, and they shower 296 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: a million people with D d T and all the 297 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: life sty and then there's no typhus anymore, so saving 298 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: tons of lives and also malaria. It's amazing mosquito eradicating pesticide, 299 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: but if the collateral damage is immense. So anyway, Rachel 300 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: Carson was living at a time when I definitely wasn't 301 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: okay to be a lesbian or even just be interested 302 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: in sexuality in a different way. And she had a 303 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: relationship with a woman named Dorothy Freeman. And there's about 304 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: nine d letters that survived between them, and they had 305 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: this amazing romantic relationship that was always kind of fearful 306 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: of being found out Dorothy was married to a man. 307 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: And so I've just been reading through some of those 308 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: letters and trying to understand they're very different, and I 309 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: think what's so interesting about loves. We often think, what 310 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: do we have a comment, you know, like, hey, let's 311 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: go out on the scorpio. You're you like skateboarding. But 312 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: a differences, I think are what ultimately make relationship. It's 313 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: interesting the way you try to embrace what's different about 314 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: each other, and that's how you learned and evolved together. 315 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, man, he likes to go to bed 316 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: at ten and I like to go to bed at 317 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: eight thirty or whatever. I think those kinds of things 318 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: that really help push you to grow as a person 319 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: if you can embrace the differences of your beloved. So 320 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: called beloved, were they very different Dorothy and Rachel Carson. Yes, 321 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: Rachel kind of had a little ego, which is interesting 322 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: to learn. And you know, she became a famous writer 323 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: about ten years before Silent Springs, so she had to 324 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: deal with fame. Of course, she didn't have another person 325 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: in her life, so there's always that kind of strange 326 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: jealousy too, where Dorothy has this husband stand. But they 327 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: shared so much love for beauty and for the natural 328 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: world that they could, you know, be out just like 329 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: in their dresses in their nineteen fifties dresses tiebooling together, 330 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: and they took such joy and sharing that, so sharing 331 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: the beauty of the world with each other, I think 332 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: was this thing they had in common. But then Dorothy 333 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: would go back to her so called heterosexual life and 334 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: all these worms that are pressed down upon these women 335 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: so that the time they could spend together is so intense. 336 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: There's something really beautiful. That's amazing. I love that. I 337 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: love that that's in a book, But it's not fiction. 338 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: That's really cool. What quality do you like least about 339 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: yourself in patience? I take a long time to write 340 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: these books, like how long. My book before Cloud cook 341 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: Land was called All the Light We Can't See. It 342 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: took me ten years to write. I started it when 343 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: I was thirty and I finished it as forty. Took 344 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: me forever. You did win the fullest surprise for its 345 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: or maybe it was worth it. I guess that was 346 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: an epically beautiful book. The Shell Collector was my gateway book, 347 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: and then All the Light we Can't See and then 348 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: Cloud Cookie Learned, and then your memoir Thank you so much. 349 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: He's so sweet. But anyway, you know, at least Americans 350 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: were kind of taught to worship efficiency, like don't waste 351 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: a chapter. Don't like, oh if you would take a 352 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: research trip to France for this book. Every minute better 353 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: be productive or you're failing, like you know, especially leaving 354 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: my wife back at home with two kids, taking a 355 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: financial risk to go there. You just put so much 356 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: pressure on your stuff, Like I can't just go entering 357 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: cider and look out at the sea. I've got to 358 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: be working to the point where I think, you know, 359 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: through my thirties, I was teaching myself if I'm stuck 360 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: in a line at the grocery store, you should be 361 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: back at your desk, like this is a waste of time, 362 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: Like you should at least be reading something, like you 363 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: should be researching while you're waiting three people deep to 364 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: buy this lettuce. And I'm trying, as I can get older, 365 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: to accept that sometimes you can't control life, like you 366 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: just get stuck in traffic or your flight is delayed, 367 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: and there are real pleasures in trying to find moments 368 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: of the day to just breathe. For example, I was 369 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: just on the flight and it was right on time. 370 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: Everything was going great, but it was like the third 371 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: flight is long flight back home from Europe has probably 372 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: happened to you, and the gate people aren't ready to 373 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: like dock the plane with the jetway and you know 374 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: your bladders full, and I'm like, I've timed my patients 375 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: just for this last thirty seconds so i could get 376 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: off the plane. I'm just telling myself, like, here's an 377 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: opportunity for you to just breathe, sit in the chair. 378 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: I'm totally failing at this, by the way, but I'm 379 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: trying to say, like, now you can exercise patients and 380 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: say you're alive. You have so many things to be 381 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: grateful for. You have a book in your bag, Just 382 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: pull the book back out. It's gonna be okay. But 383 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: I'm not that great at that. So in patience, I 384 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: wish I was more patient. What do you think would 385 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: happen if you were more patient? Maybe you would lose 386 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: like some kind of engine. I think that's okay, Like 387 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: the engine of like that makes you write books, or 388 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: that makes you go say yes to the film project 389 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: that's probably landing in your email box right now. Sometimes 390 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: saying yes to those things is so valuable because you 391 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: go to Fiji or whatever, You'll meet people and you'll 392 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: give you participant in this great team making this film. 393 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: But sometimes if you tone down the engine, maybe stillness 394 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: is something that we need to embrace a little more. 395 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: At least for me as I'm getting older, the pandemic 396 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: really helped teach me that I used to think, like 397 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: I've got to have a list of things I've got 398 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: to see before I die. Like you've never been to 399 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: the multi coast, Tony, like you ever read all of 400 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: Edith Wharton Tony to take Washington Square to goddamn a 401 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: most exactly, and then while you're there, make sure you 402 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: also go for a run and to push ups. And 403 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: you know, I think I've got to say it's okay. 404 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: Like there were these moments, especially early in the pandemic, 405 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: and there's no airplanes in the sky. You know, we 406 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: have these beautiful blue spring skies, and the snow kis 407 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: were migrating like a mile above our yard. You'd see 408 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: this little thread, this little like bracelet of white birds 409 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: and you could hear them because there was no other sound. 410 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: You hear them honking at each other, and you realize, like, 411 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: just here in our backyard versus many miracles as I've 412 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: been chasing. When I'm trying to like go all the 413 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: way to Kenya or something. So I'm trying to learn 414 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: that right around us there's all these gifts and that 415 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: I don't have to always be running the engine as 416 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: high as I think I should in your life, Can 417 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: you tell me about something that has grown out of 418 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: a personal disaster. So we've been talking about our kids 419 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: just heading off to school. They're eighteen years older. Twins. 420 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: Are they identical? Twins? Are they fraternal? Their fraternal? They're 421 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: quite different looking at inside too. But we got married 422 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: two years ago and dated for a few years before that, 423 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: and we both wanted to be parents and it wasn't 424 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: working out. I forgot married, were like, let's see if 425 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: we can make babies, and it wasn't happening. And in 426 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: the beginning we were kind of like in this arms 427 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: race with some friends who were getting pregnant, or like 428 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: semi unconsciously bragging about it, and you just sort of like, oh, 429 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: I guess it is hard for us. We're struggling. And 430 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: it felt very much like a personal disaster, even though 431 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: I know there are many worst problems in the world. 432 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: And thanks to science and UH in detro we were 433 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: able with quite a bit of expense that wasn't covered 434 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: by our healthcare plan able to get pregnant, got pregnant 435 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: with twins. When I look back now, I am so 436 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: grateful that we went through those thickets because I want 437 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: I knew I wanted these kids, and every minute that 438 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: I was with them, I was pumped. I was so 439 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: grateful that I got to see those kids run around 440 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: and jump in puddles and play basketball and skin their 441 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: knees and yell at me. And I just really had 442 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: to go through that journey to understand, like, this is 443 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: an immense privilege to get to have an offspring that 444 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: I get to hang out with. I've just been thinking 445 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,959 Speaker 1: about that lately, how that so called personal disaster at 446 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: least the troubles we were going through really helped us 447 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: appreciate what we had. That's really what their childhood was. 448 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: M you noticed it happening, and now noticing that it's 449 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: so there in all. I mean, I know that that 450 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: is It's sort of what you're famous for in your books, 451 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 1: is the detail with which you tell these stories. But 452 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: it is very interesting that that is like how you 453 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: live your life as well. I'm trying my favorite art, 454 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,239 Speaker 1: whatever does film or a painting or a symphony or 455 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: like a quilt. It shows you the world with new eyes. 456 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: It wakes you up to the miracle of being alive, 457 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: because I think the worst crime you can commit is 458 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: to sleep walk through your life, you know, And of 459 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: course there's days when you're tired and it's fine too, 460 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: you know whatever. Taken a junkie film where you know 461 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: every single thing that's going to happen, But to challenge 462 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: yourself occasionally to wake up and see the familiar with 463 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: unfamiliar eyes. That's what I try to do in my sentences, 464 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: to try to disrupt little patterns so that you're disrupting 465 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: cliche at the sentence level. And then stories that kind 466 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: of disrupt expectations in surprise the reader. They bring me 467 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: so much pleasure. So that's the kind of stuff I'm 468 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: trying to make anyway, So, now, what question would you 469 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: most like answer to? I was thinking about this and 470 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, it's obviously gonna be aliens, Like 471 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: are there aliens? And I thought, that's okay. Here's my 472 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: midlife journey is just like tying in with my previous answer, 473 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: trying to get more comfortable with not knowing, like not 474 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: knowing when the dudes are going to use their little 475 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: joystick and put the jetway onto the plane. Get more 476 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: comfortable with that, and so I think I would just 477 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: say it's okay, I'm happy with not knowing what I 478 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: don't know. Like you know, the classic exercise if they 479 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: handed any driver and envelope and said inside is the 480 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: date and the cause of your death, you know, would 481 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: you open it? No, right, because knowing would suck. Knowing 482 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: would suck, totally suck. Like again, why are we not 483 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: better at it? All we do is humans? Is not 484 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: nice stuff? How we know better at this? Like I'm 485 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: I want to know that. I want to know about 486 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: why these parts of ourselves don't evolve when we have 487 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: so much information, Like you just saying, I just want 488 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: to get more comfortable with the unknown, Like it feels 489 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: so freeing, it feels like like a breath, Like God. 490 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: That's the way to do it. It's not to seek 491 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: to you know. It's like God isn't in the God, 492 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: It's in the faith. If you can get into the 493 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: notion of faith and you can really get into the 494 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: idea of God. I mean, this is how my Christian 495 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: friends have fixed my and got to me. And I 496 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: understand that because they're wanting me to just cozy up 497 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: with the void. And I feel differently about that on 498 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: any different day. But it's interestingly we haven't developed a 499 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: better relationship with not knowing. Yes, for me, that's all 500 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: time with the future. Like my anxiety is often about 501 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: like what is coming, what will come next? What will 502 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: happen next Tuesday when I have to talk to a 503 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: French journalist, how badly will I flame out? And if 504 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: I can just be more president like the Buddhists, maybe 505 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: like Christians. You know, Buddhist idea of living now and 506 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: accepting now means you have to be comfortable with not 507 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: knowing what's coming and whatever comes, being comfortable with your 508 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: ability to cope with it. And I'm just saying words. 509 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm not good at following any of this, but well, okay, well, 510 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: which leads me to what I'm going to have to 511 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: ask you this. How does one get from the self 512 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 1: awareness and the knowledge that the words create of what 513 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: it is we need to know, and then the not 514 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: doing of that, and the continuing not doing of the 515 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: thing that we know would make us feel better? How 516 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: do bridge that schism? Tony, come on quick. The novelist 517 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: friends who meditate. For me, it's yoga in the morning. 518 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: The moments that you can just take in the day 519 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: to practice being comfortable in the now, even if it's 520 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 1: twenty minutes, I think can help prepare you to make 521 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: you a little more resilient for the rest of the day. 522 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: When you're uber is late and you're like, when will 523 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: he get here? I have to be blank. And then 524 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 1: also I think for me, like accepting the invitation of 525 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: like the night sky of the universe often helps me. 526 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: Right before we dropped our boys off a college, I 527 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: took them backpack and we're really lucky to have smoke 528 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: free skies. And remembering how tiny you are can sometimes 529 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: be so helpful because our problems start to seem like 530 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: we're the center of the universe. And if you remember, 531 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: like the Earth's four and a half billion years old, 532 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: like percent of species have gone extinct, you know humans 533 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: will be the same eventually. You know your life is 534 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: small and huge, and that's kind of like that's the 535 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: paradox in fiction, right think, Really, you know you're dealing 536 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: with the details of some person's life, and yet this 537 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: person's life in the pages of a novel becomes enormous 538 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: but it's also tiny because you're connecting with readers across 539 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: time and space, and so you can remember somehow your 540 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: smallness by exercising that imagination, that imaginative empathy. To say, oh, 541 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: Minny driver has felt the same way as I have 542 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: felt about saying goodbye to her son before he goes 543 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: off to camp. Means I'm not alone, and it means 544 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: my problems aren't so unique in the history of the world. 545 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: And I think reading is one way to really help 546 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: me exercise that and just looking up at the stars 547 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: and contemplating, you know, our tiny little whirling kunk of 548 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: carbon that's like whirling around out here. We're just tiny. 549 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: Even the Milky Way is just a tiny little galaxy 550 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: in a sea of galaxies. God, it's nuts when you 551 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: say that the Milky Way is a tiny little galaxy 552 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: in a sea of galaxies. As my mother was dying, 553 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: which is the kind of the agonizing everyday pot of 554 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: grief subsides and like, you start watching it grow into 555 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: something else if you've developed a relationship with it, which 556 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly important to do. And the days 557 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: where you can approach your loss in this more robust 558 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: way and remember and think about that person, and I 559 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: think about my mother. And she did say a version 560 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: of We were lying in her bed pretty close to 561 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: the end, and she said, I just I can't believe 562 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: how fast this is all happening. And I said, do 563 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: you mean dying? And she said, I do. I mean dying, 564 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: but I also mean living. She's like it happened so quickly. 565 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: And then she and she didn't not and she wasn't 566 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: in a self pitching when she said, and you know 567 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: the other thing that was crazy. She was like, the 568 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: lack of significance and the significance of my life is 569 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: happening in real time and in real awareness, and it 570 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: is the trippiest feeling and thought to hold that it 571 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: meant everything and it meant nothing. And those two things 572 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: are existing in time and space and here in my 573 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: physical body, which is soon going to be gone. And 574 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: it was so interesting because you want I wanted to 575 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: have a really evolved spiritual reaction to that, but invariably, 576 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: because again one is comforted and also confounded by your humanness, 577 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: all I could do is just squeeze her hand just 578 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: so tightly. And I suppose in recognition or in comfort 579 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: or in whatever it was she needed to get out 580 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: that squeeze. But it's wild remembering that. Yeah, that's beautiful. 581 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: And don't be impatient with yourself if that spiritual moment 582 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: doesn't last, because you are alive, Like eventually you have 583 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: to go eat and have breakfast and change your shoes. 584 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: And these revelate, these like epiphanies that we have don't last. 585 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: That's just part of being human and we kind of 586 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: have to keep relearning those lessons of our vast significance 587 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: and our massive insignificance all at once exactly. So, will 588 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: you tell me what person, place, or experience most a 589 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: to your life. Yeah, I think my wife Shanna gets 590 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: a shout out here. She's taught me patients. Shauna grew 591 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,479 Speaker 1: up in a family. She had three sisters and her 592 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: oldest has an intellectual disability, and as a consequence, her 593 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: house was filled with patients in a way mine wasn't 594 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: because Kelly just takes much longer to do everything. And 595 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: also they just kept conflict to a minimum. I had 596 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: three brothers, was kind of this other yin yang household, 597 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: and there's just always movement in mud and creatures and 598 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: action in our house. And I think Shanna has taught 599 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: me so much about patients, and she'll just drop me. 600 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: She teaches me about love every minute. She'll just drop 601 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: whatever she's doing to talk to all of her friends, 602 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: our kids, me about our problems, you know, versus me. 603 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm tying being a very important email. You know. 604 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: Can I hear about your heartbreak later? You know, kindness patients. 605 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: When we first got married, Like if we're in the 606 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: grocery store and I'd be like, oh, I decided we 607 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: don't want this pancake mix or something, and I'm just 608 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: gonna put it back here in the soft drink style. 609 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: She'd be like, no, We're gonna walk all the way 610 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: back to Aisle three and put it back where you 611 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: found it. Oh my gosh, are we okay? Oh we are? 612 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: Oh wow, we're doing this all right. Okay. Education of 613 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: being a better person all the time. That's a great 614 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: that you love that though. That's clearly obviously why she 615 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: loves you, because you don't mind things that are kind 616 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: of making you a more thoughtful and considerate humans. Yeah, 617 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: the love is especially you know, over decades, it helps 618 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: you grow as a person. You know, if you can 619 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: keep challenging each other and help each other evolve and 620 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: appreciate that changes, like the only music and the world 621 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: that you know, change is going to keep coming, and 622 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: how do you help each other through that? You know, 623 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: I remember the first days in the pandemic when we 624 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: thought like we're going to be dragging each other's corpses 625 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: to the curb or who knows. I remember both of 626 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: us saying like, we are so grateful we have had 627 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: this time together, and those little resets are so important. 628 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, how is she doing with your son's 629 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: being off for college. Yeah, thanks for asking. Since we're 630 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: only eight days in, we just neither of us really know. 631 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: Sevent of the traffic and our house came from our 632 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: boys and their pals, and so it's super quiet. Thankfully. 633 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: My career is kind of busy, so that kind of 634 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: helps me maybe ignore feelings that like the dumb men 635 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: aren't good at this way and she's probably a little 636 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: farther along and processing this is part of the journey. 637 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: But you know, phones are interesting. You know, when I 638 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: went to college, I called my parents every other Sunday 639 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: and that was it. And they're texting her a lot, 640 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: and so I think she's getting connected to them. Because 641 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: of technology in a way that's mostly healthy. I don't 642 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: think they're ignoring their experienced to touch base with home, 643 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: but it does make you feel connected to them, like, oh, 644 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: they've figured out what dining hall to eat at, or 645 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: they figured out how to do their laundry, or they 646 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: figured out how to get a package. You know that 647 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: stuff is kind of nice. Yeah, No, I love the mundane. 648 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: I checked the weather where he is right now, he's 649 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: on this camping track. I'm obsessively refreshing the met office 650 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: here in England, which is notorious and they useless and 651 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: predict weather. But I'm looking at it in real time, 652 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: not ahead, So I feel like I'm staying very present 653 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: with the weather where he is. So that's good, isn't it. 654 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: I'm in the now and he's in the rain. It 655 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: is just raining and it's quite cold, and are you 656 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: comfortable with that? Can you sit with that? Be like 657 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: he's called? Yeah, because I know how many socks he's 658 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: got because I packed them and I realized, really what 659 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: you need is you need fifteen pairs of socks, because 660 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: really what you want is your feet to feel dry, 661 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: even if your boots are wet, putting on dry socks 662 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: makes you feel better. I know that from having done 663 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: a lot of trekking. And if you've gotten wet, you 664 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: have to have warm clothes to change into. So I'm 665 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: not worried. Boys are so funny that I guarantee doesn't 666 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: even know everything that's in his back. I swear to 667 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: you he will have won the same two pass socks 668 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: and the one sweater you know I packed five. Yeah. 669 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,959 Speaker 1: I like being connected by mundane things that makes me 670 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: feel safe in the world rather than being connected by 671 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: the loftier stuff. I just want him to text me 672 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: and go, can you get some salt and vinegar crisps 673 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: for when I get back? And I'll be like, yeah, totally, 674 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: and like that's it, And that's what love is, though, 675 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: that's love. That's what love is. It's like it doesn't 676 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: need to be she experience on it, you know, it's Yeah, 677 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: you have those moments or they volunteered them. That's what's great, 678 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: those moments. The poetry of your children comes in the rarest, 679 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: most amazing moments, you know, not when you necessarily need 680 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: it or are asking for it, but when they deliver it. 681 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: And there's something I mean, I tend to write down 682 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that he says. But I 683 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: sometimes I do write down the Crisps conversations too, because 684 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: they are incredibly comforting, like verbatim. I'll do it and 685 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: they make me chuckle. That's great, and you'll love them 686 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: in twenty years. And I've been doing it since he 687 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: was about three. I've been writing down the weird ship 688 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: that he says, and it's really good going back and 689 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: reading and knowing that he's wound up where he is 690 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: currently and we'll continue, Yeah, making that unscheduled time for that. 691 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: You know, corporations are always trying to sell us on 692 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: like come to this resort and have meaningful family tough. 693 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: But you know you can just do that by being 694 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: president dinner, you know, just burned some pork chops. By 695 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: the way, I went to hear Rumdus speak when I 696 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: was quite young. He came to London and I went 697 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: and sat on the floor and listened to this. You know, 698 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: he was amazing and amazing being in person, and his 699 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: whole thing was you know, not only not only can you, 700 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: but you will and you should think about it. If 701 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: you won't think about anything, having your big spiritual experiences 702 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: in the butcher's shop, in picking your tomatoes, waiting in 703 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: line at the dentist in the waiting room as you will, 704 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: like sitting under the Banyan tree. It goes back to 705 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 1: what you were saying about detail, like there is such 706 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: life in detail, and that is mundane and that is 707 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: also poetic. The mundane and the sublime are linked there, 708 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 1: like braided around each other all the time. Boy, they 709 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: really are. I love sort of videgar crisps. They are 710 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: the food of the gods. Thank you so much for 711 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: coming and chatting and where all these ideas. It is 712 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much. Mini. I've really enjoyed 713 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: diving into the podcast, and I think it's so cool 714 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: that you're exercising your curiosity and you get to bring 715 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: all these different people together. So wonderful. Thank you, Tony, 716 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: and please say hello to your wife and your boys. Okay, same, 717 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 1: say hi to Henry. We'll do well when he gets 718 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:29,959 Speaker 1: back with his clean socks socks. Anthony's newest book, Cloud 719 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: cookoo Land, is out now in hardcover and paperback, and 720 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: be sure to read his other incredible works, including All 721 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: the Light We Cannot See About Grace and This wonderful 722 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: collection of short stories called The Shell Collector. Mini Questions 723 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: is hosted and written by Me Mini Driver, supervising producer 724 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: Aaron Kaufman, Producer more Than Levoy, Research assistant Marissa Brown. 725 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: Original music Sorry Baby by Mini Driver, Additional music by 726 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: Aaron Kauffman, Executive produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks 727 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: to Jim Nikolay, Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella 728 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: and a Unique Oppenheim at w kPr, de La Pescador, 729 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg. And for constantly solicited tech support, 730 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: Henry Driver.