WEBVTT - Climate summits are working as they were designed: poorly 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:04.640 Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatarati. This week what happened 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:19.520 at COP thirty. For the last two weeks, tens of 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:21.880 thousands of people have taken to the city of blen 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.759 at the mouth of the Amazon River to take part 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.960 in the annual United Nations Climate Summit COP thirty. These 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.880 COP meetings last two weeks and involve tense negotiations among 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.040 all the world's countries. In Brazil this time, there was 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:40.200 a lot more than that. There were indigenous protests, daily rainstorms, 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.279 and even a fire at the COP venue. So at 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:46.600 the end of it all, what did COP thirty achieve? 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.440 That's what we are going to discuss today. And joining 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.400 me to do that is my Bloombergreen colleague Gender Louis, 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.200 who was at COP thirty till the very end and 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.920 has just come off a long night watching the negotiation. 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:00.720 Strap up, Jen, come back to Zero. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:02.640 Thank you, Akshad. Glad to be here. 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.080 So before we get into all the substantial things that 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.679 happened at COP thirty, let's start at the place where 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.640 most people were a few months ago, still talking about 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.679 logistics and the challenge of hosting a COP at the 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:21.520 mouth of the mighty Amazon River. How did it all go. 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.160 I think it went better than expected because months ago 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:27.959 we were talking about, you know, the cruise ships that 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.480 were going to be moored here to host tens of 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.480 thousands of delegates, you know, the people who would have 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:39.200 to live in shipping containers, the lack of infrastructure to 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.720 really support this COP. There were challenges. There was some 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.800 concerns about security. There were concerns about flooding in the 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:50.920 venue and how that might interact with wiring at the 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.559 site that was of course hastily constructed before this whole COP. 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.240 And you know, in general, I think it actually went 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.400 fairly smoothly. Delegates were able to get to the site 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.840 and do the hard work of COP. The folks on 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:05.800 cruise ships and there were many delegates and others on 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:07.960 cruise ships had a long haul to get. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:08.440 To the site. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:10.120 But in the end they were able to do so, 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.639 and they were able to find lodging for Saturday night 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.399 those that needed it as the talks went into overtime. 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.960 Of course, I can't not mention the fire that occurred 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.760 in the penultimate day of the official COP schedule, which 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.160 happened to add a pavilion and of course opened up 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:32.040 the tent that hung over all of us, and really 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:35.160 for a few minutes there looked like I was close by, 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:36.679 and for a few minutes there I could see the 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.120 smoke but not the flames. It looked like something that 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.880 could become very bad, very quickly, had the officials not 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.280 responded so quickly. You know, you had tons of officials 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.440 running by with their fire gear and with the extinguishers 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:51.480 and really quickly taking care of that. But of course it, 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:53.919 you know, was a difficult thing. On the penultimate day 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.080 of cop halting, a lot of negotiations at a tricky 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.799 time for about six hours while they inspected the venue, 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:01.240 got things reopened again. 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.360 Yeah, and it's been the first cup in a while 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.040 in the Southern Hemisphere in November, which means it's getting 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.920 into the hot period. And we've always thought, you know, 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.440 going to cops over the last few years, why do 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:17.000 they host a cop during winter and talk about global warming. Well, 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.680 this time they did feel the heat and the fire, 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.000 as it turns out, and a little bit of the flooding. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.000 You know, I grew up in a city of two 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.760 million people in India, which is about the same size 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.400 of Villain, So I had like this deja vou, like 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.680 I'd been to a place like this before when I 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.960 was going through the city, but the heat in the 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.520 humidity was quite a lot. Then. The other thing about 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:42.920 doing this at the mouth of the Amazon was to 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.320 give delegates a flavor of what it is like to 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.240 be in the rainforest. You know, you and I along 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.760 with our bloomber Colley's got a little bit of that taste. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.320 Going into an island nearby. What was that like? 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.440 Oh yeah, we had a great encounter, and many of 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.680 the delegates actually took the same trek over to an island, 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.720 you know, just a short ride away essentially from the 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.480 city of Blame, you know, where you saw obviously the 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.320 lush rainforest. We happened to see a cacao farm and 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.960 talked with the proprietors who are doing really interesting things 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.599 to not just grow cocaw, but preserve diversity in the region, 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:22.640 not just grow one species, and really deal with actually 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.120 on the ground the changing impacts, you know, the impacts 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.160 of climate change that have made their growing seasons and 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.520 the weather patterns in this region. They believe different in 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.800 their harvest, even different, they told us. Anyway, that's their perception. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:38.320 But you know, it was a flavor, and it was 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:40.599 a moment to see a little bit of life in 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.159 this region. Of course, Belome is a city, it's a 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.320 relatively poor city with so many people in this region. 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.440 And yet you know, with this visit, with the rides 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:54.919 across the river, with even those daily thundering rainfalls, you 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.599 really just got a sense of just a little sense 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:00.359 of what it is like to live in a place 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:02.880 like this, and that I think is something that many 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:06.360 delegates from around the world wouldn't have experienced otherwise and 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.360 really drove home some of the things that we're talking 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:11.279 about in these negotiating rooms. 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.120 Now, let's come to the headaches that the negotiators had 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.520 to deal with these rooms. Coming into COP thirty, we 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.080 knew this was the tenth year of the anniversary of 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.440 the Paris Agreement. We knew that all the major items 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.640 under the Paris Agreement had kind of been agreed upon already, 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.279 and the Brazilian hosts had talked a little bit about 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.800 forests that they wanted to make sure, because you're coming 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:35.800 to the Amazon, that we try and figure out how 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:40.839 to stop deforestation, a really important thing. But beyond that, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.480 the only main agenda item that I could think of 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:46.760 was that, look, countries have to submit their climate plans 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.360 for twenty thirty five. This is the cop at which 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.080 those plans will be summed up, and we will know 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.840 for sure that those plans are nowhere enough to keep 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.479 us on the Paris trajectory, and that Brazil and COP 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:00.840 thirty and its presidency will have to stand up and 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.400 make sure to show in this time of geopolitical tension, 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:06.719 that the world still cares about this and the world 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.880 wants to get back on the trajectory. So we'll talk 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.680 about for us, we'll talk about these climate plans. But 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.680 before we do that, were there other items that were 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:16.920 of interest to you, Jen? 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.839 Yeah, absolutely, you know there were On the technical agenda, 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.400 I will just say, you know, there's this prescribed Paris 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:27.159 Agreement work schedule, and and those items seemed a little 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.480 tedious at times, in lackluster, and yet were of great importance. 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.000 That includes, you know, really narrowing down the indicators for 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:39.000 assessing climate adaptation and how we're doing, and that which 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:41.880 you know started somewhere north of one thousand at one 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.560 point and got down to under one hundred, and that's 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:46.599 considered a success by some. 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.240 The global goal on adaptation as it's called. 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.760 And then we also had some separate work both on 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:54.839 mitigation and adjust transition. 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:56.840 There was workaround gender. 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.359 These are all kind of in the prescribed pathways of Paris. 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.880 Like I said, there was also a clamor at the 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:07.039 start by some countries to talk more about trade and 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:11.640 what they perceive as unilateral trade measures that are slowing 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:16.560 the transition away from fossil fuels and raising the costs. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.680 Well, the obvious one at that point, I would think 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.520 is Donald Trump's tariffs, but they weren't talking about Donald 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:24.360 Trump's tariffs on that case, right. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.320 You're right, this was much more you know, some folks 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.600 might have had Donald Trump's tariffs in mind, but this 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.960 was much more an assault on the EU's carbon border 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.000 adjustment mechanism, which has drawn a lot of ire from 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:39.720 developing nations, and it really put the EU on the 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.240 back foot and kind of defending this throughout the two weeks. 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.720 I would just note there was also obviously there's it's 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.120 not a COP if there's not discussion about finance, and 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.320 there was a push by some countries early on to 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.160 make sure that we discussed finance at this COP and 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.000 that it had a place on the agenda. 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.960 There's always this talk of trade offs at COP, so 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.840 all the developing countries want to make sure that they're 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.960 going to get finance from rich countries. That caused this 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:10.360 problem to both cut emissions but also really to adapt 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.320 to the warming that's already occurred. And then rich countries 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:17.240 in response say, sure, we'll try and figure out if 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.680 there's any money in our pockets, but we won't give 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.280 you any money unless you actually cut emissions. And so 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.360 when it comes to looking at the gap between where 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.840 the world is going and where the world committed under 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.400 the Paras Agreement to go, that gap needed to be 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:36.520 filled with ways in which the climate plan could be 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.840 made ambitious. So what was Brazil's response to try and 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.199 bridge the gap between climate ambition of trying to keep 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.880 warming below one point five degrees celsius and the climate 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.600 plans which currently say we could be going beyond two 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:51.880 point five degrees celsius. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:53.880 Well, I think it was actually twofold, and you saw 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.520 it right from the start when Brazil's President Lula came 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.720 to the COP it was actually two days before the 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.520 COP and made this really remarkable and surprising call for 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.640 road maps as He called them to help countries not 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:11.520 only transition away from fossil fuels that are the biggest 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:16.120 driver of global warming, but also to combat deforestation and 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.640 so on one level, he was trying to muster financial 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.840 support for a new tropical Forest Forever facility, a fund 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.080 to deal with deforestation. You know, it was a challenging 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.520 push and originally, you know, supporters of this were aiming 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.559 for twenty five billion dollars in support. Then they had 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.600 to reduce the goal to about ten billion dollars in 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:39.480 the end. At the end of cop they have about 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:43.280 six billion dollars committed, with the hope for more. Some 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.400 of those commitments are conditional on more support, but that 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.840 is an ongoing effort and something that they can still 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.320 look on as some level of success. Then you also had, 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.880 you know, this push to deliver roadmaps or set up 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.679 some kind of formal process for creating guideline for this 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:05.240 energy transition commitment that countries made two years ago in 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.000 Dubai when they said, you know, they supported a just 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.840 orderly transition away from oil, gas and coal. You know, 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.880 that's left folks two years later countries wondering, well, how 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.640 do I do that? What do I prioritize, is cole 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:19.280 the first thing I should be getting out of my 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.839 energy mix? Where does gas fit in? How long should 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.200 this take? All those questions really are are tough on 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.520 an individual level, and there was a clamor and there 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.320 has been a clamor to discuss this, to kind of 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.360 create a formal process. This roadmap, if you will. It 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.600 was announced by Lula again at the start of COP essentially, 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:41.560 and then Marina Silva, Brazil's environment minister, made an impassioned 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.360 plea a week later, kind of echoing this call. And 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.440 what's interesting is over the two weeks you just saw 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.440 this thing snowball. You had, you know, Columbia lead its 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.439 own declaration for road maps, UK and the EU also 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.080 got involved trying to push this through. You know, for 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.880 a COP that was was really starting on some more 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:05.160 routine items and had far less negotiation. It ended up being, 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.600 you know, a pretty all consuming and defining work over 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:09.520 the course of two weeks. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.440 And as you and our colleague John Anger and Fabiano 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.000 Maisinavi followed in the last couple of days, like the 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:21.520 very tense moments when this kind of negotiation brings the 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.520 big powers to head, we know what happened in the end, 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:27.360 but how did it all play out. 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.600 It was really quite fascinating because you saw countries, particularly 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:33.160 the UK and the EU. 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.880 Being willing to draw a red line on this issue. 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.520 You know, they wanted to see some more ambition reflected 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.520 in the actual text. And again this reflects that discontent 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.600 and frustration with the looming gap between what needs to 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.480 be done to keep temperature rise and check whether it's 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.960 two degrees or one point five and what is actually 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:55.880 being done and what is committed. And so you saw 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.240 that frustration born out in these final hours, really the 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.520 last day and a half of the COP where these countries, 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:03.560 some of them said, you know, this is a red 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.800 line for us. We are willing to veto this final 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.319 text if we don't get some more ambition. You also 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.600 had pushback from Saudi Arabia, Russia and other countries behind 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.160 closed doors that created complications around this. At the very 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.600 really the final hours of the COP there was some 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:26.400 kind of compromise negotiated. It's far from what roadmap supporters want, 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:30.120 but it creates a pathway to that outcome, which is 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.200 to say that the final text included a reference back 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:38.679 to countries implementing NDCs, or rather Climate and Carbon cutting 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:43.120 pledges under the Paris Agreement that reflect the Dubai Agreement 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.000 to Transition away from fossil fuels, and then a separate 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.360 presidency initiative where over the next year there will be 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.080 work by the Brazilian COP thirty presidency to address road 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.320 maps on forestation and on fossil fuels. 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.960 It is often said that what happens at cops because 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.520 they are run by consensus and all parties have to agree, 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.160 all countries have to agree, what we get is the 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:10.560 lowest common denominator of what everybody can agree on. And 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.760 it did feel like, you know, this roadmap to transition 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.080 away from fossil fuels came quite last minute for how 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.920 things happened. You know, a prior example I would have 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.240 is maybe COP twenty six, where the UK presidency was 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.120 very keen on trying to finally get a mention of 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.319 fossil fuels at a COP meeting in the final declaration 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.320 and started to talk about, you know, moving away from coal, 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.480 which the UK itself was doing a phenomenal job at, 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.160 but trying to get all the rest of the world 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:41.920 to agree on it, and it started to do that 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.560 like months in advance, nine months in advance, it was 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.760 getting people and getting countries to be open to the 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:52.360 idea of transitioning away from coal, whereas the COP thirty 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.040 presidency it felt like it was a bit too late, right. 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:56.120 Yeah, I'd agree with that. 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.120 And actually your example is perfect because you know, you 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.360 did have that sex tesful inclusion of language around coal 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.680 at the COP in Glasgow, but that discussion around fossil 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:10.560 fuels didn't lead to a broader fossil fuel declaration or commitment. 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.800 We didn't see that for two more years until Dubai. 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:14.000 You know. 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.360 And in the process of these cops, it does feel 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.120 very much like not only do you need to do 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.640 your homework early and try to set the stage for agreements, 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.240 which you know didn't really happen here with the roadmap, 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:26.960 but it also is something that can take years and 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.520 years to get this text into you know, final agreements. 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.000 You have to kind of build the support. Lula's call 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:35.520 surprised a lot of people, and it was two days 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.360 before the COP began. We got to a remarkable place 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.680 in two weeks, and of course the presidency is I 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.440 think hoping that they can get this to a place 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.440 where it becomes on the table for next year. 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.400 Join us after the break for more of my conversation 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.440 with Jender Louis about what happened at COP thirty and 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.960 if you're enjoying zero, write a review on Apple Podcasts 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:06.280 and Spotify. Recently, a listener with an unpronounceable name wrote, 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:12.120 these podcasts regularly lift my mood on climate change challenges, clever, fun, hopeful, 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:29.040 but also pragmatic. Thank you, dear listener. You typically in 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.440 the very last moments of the cop require the big powers. 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.440 I've been there in the past four cops on the 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:39.240 very last day, and I've always seen like the US 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.760 negotiator meeting with the EU negotiator, and then India hurdling 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:49.120 with other lease developed countries, or Saudi Arabia coming in 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.400 having agree words with the EU negotiator. What was the 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.880 scene like in the last last hours of Cop thirty? 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:02.080 In the very final hours the actual plenary, we actually 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.440 had fewer huddles than I think I've seen in the 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.880 five years I've been covering cops, mostly because the outcome 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.240 at that point had been kind of pre negotiated. Around 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.640 six am, seven am, and that final plenary was about 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:17.920 four or five hours later. But you know, you couldn't 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:22.440 escape the absence of some big folks. You didn't have 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.920 the US there. Obviously, President Donald Trump has made no 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.920 secret of his disdain not only for the notion of 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.640 climate change, but the whole apparatus for combating it. He 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.000 calls it a scam, a great hoax, you know, And 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.080 he didn't send anybody down to this conference, not even 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.760 the lowliest of negotiators, and so that was pervasive. You 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.440 felt that in the room, the lack of the US. 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.240 After the US has in the past worked with the 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.680 EU and with China to forge not only the Paris 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.040 Agreement but some other landmarks along the way. 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.560 But some saw that as a relief. Given what the 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.400 US had just done a month ago at the International 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.720 Maritime Organization by throwing its weight around to try and 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:07.040 delay this vote on a global contact on shipping, the 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.479 absence of the US in this case seemed like a blessing. 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.800 No, you absolutely had that sense from some delegates, some 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.680 of the US officials that came to the conference to 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:18.720 kind of show, you know, we're all still in it 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.520 in America. They said the same thing that you know, 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.800 we're embarrassed that the US government isn't here, but it's 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.520 probably a good thing given the way things went down 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.160 at the IMO and given the president's commitment to kind 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.400 of tearing down some of these institutions. 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.840 But this absence of the US not being around to 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.680 actually push China to be more ambitious kind of played out, right, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.280 you know, there was this hope that with the US gone, 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:47.040 there's this void in leadership that's been created. You know, 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.520 EU would typically come into it, but this time the 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.800 EU has a bunch of far right parties that are 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.280 rising across its governments. They had to fight last minute 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.440 before COPP to actually get their climate plan approved that 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.960 it's not the EU, is that it's China that's going 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.720 to rise up to the leadership rule. But that also 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:07.639 didn't happen, right. 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.080 Yeah, it was kind of remarkable because we did have 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.280 those expectations going in. To be sure, we saw the 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.720 EU kind of push on mitigation, but you didn't have 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:18.560 what a lot of folks were predicting, which was the 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.159 EU working with China in the way that the US 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:26.560 used to work with China to create pathways to deals 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.000 at this COP. So not only was the EU kind 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.240 of not really stepping up in a big broad way 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:32.680 in the absence. 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:32.760 Of the US. 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.399 China also kind of kept its head low. I mean, 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:37.919 they had this very splashy pavilion, you couldn't miss it. 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:40.199 At the entrance to the COP they handed out you know, 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:44.119 pandas and like panda ear headbands that were really a 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.560 hot ticket for some of the delegates based on what 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:48.040 I could see of the clamor to get them in 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.359 the mornings, you know, and they mounted really engaging and 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.040 well attended dialogues and forums on the sidelines of COP, 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.200 but in the COP negotiating rooms they had a lower profile. 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.320 And you know, I think that reflects the concern really 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.520 with trade measures, with Donald Trump's tariffs with you know, 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:07.879 some of the things that they see as barriers to 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.679 clean energy trade, to the sale and export of the 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.760 wind turbines, the solar panels, the battery tech, the evs 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.200 that they are producing in such a large number, and 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.840 so that seemed to be a higher priority for them 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.080 than actually stepping up in a very big and visible 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:25.480 way to land a bigger deal. 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.920 The other thing that people were looking out for in 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:33.840 this COP was the presence of protesters. It is something 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.359 that typically climate conferences have plenty of but we just 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.800 have been to have three conferences prior to this one 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:46.640 in authoritarian regimes and protests were really far to come by. 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.920 The last big protests had happened in Glasgow in the UK. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.880 This time around, there were huge protests. You saw many 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.440 of them inside the blue zone, which was a rare 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.919 treat for us as climate reporters. How much difference do 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:02.720 you think the protesters meet. 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.000 Yeah, I'd say we do normally see protest inside the 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.359 blue zone, but they're in these smaller areas they have 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.159 to adhere to, you know, rules of decorum that are 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.720 established by the UN and this body. And what you 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:15.960 saw at this cop was was, you know, just a 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:20.080 flow of protesters through the city at the cop venue 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:22.520 outside and indeed in the blue zone, and you just 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:23.399 couldn't escape it. 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:23.879 You know. 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.960 I wasn't outside in the streets the day the big 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.439 march happened through the city of blem but I couldn't 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:31.560 escape it. I heard it before I left my hotel 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.000 room in the morning. I heard it at the site. 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:37.520 Those calls for action were played on videos inside the facility. 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.480 You just couldn't escape it. And I would just say 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:41.960 that you know, it was everywhere, and it was a 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.199 visible reminder of kind of the human element of this 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:46.960 in a way that we, really, like you said, have 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:52.560 not seen at the most recent cops, indigenous people's, religious activists, 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:54.760 you know, any assortment of people who care. You know, 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:56.760 they were among the tens of thousands that took to 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.359 the streets to kind of push this roadmap idea and 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.000 help add fuel to that effort. And then you also 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.760 just had Indigenous people walking through the venue and joining 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.720 some of this activism. At one point they were activists 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.720 to storm the venue site one evening, and that also 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:16.480 brought it home right that this was a cop in 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:20.080 the Amazon in the presence of Indigenous people who bear 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.520 a lot of the weight of climate change that they 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:24.040 had no role in creating. 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.639 And we saw this passion from the protests, one because 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.760