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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Tracy V.

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Speaker 1: Wilson, and we talked about Samuel Colerio. It's Taylor this week,

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Speaker 1: who I love. I have to tell you if you

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Speaker 1: go looking for pictures of him, he's so handsome.

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Speaker 2: I love that he's so handsome. I'm just like, so handsome.

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Speaker 1: I did a Yeah, I did a little check this morning,

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Speaker 1: just because you know, sometimes there are not photos available

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Speaker 1: of people, and there were lots, and I was like, yes, I.

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Speaker 2: Love all these pictures. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We didn't get into it a whole lot, but when

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Speaker 1: you read accounts of him written by people that knew him,

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Speaker 1: they talk about how he was very like this incredibly

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Speaker 1: kind and warm person. He was super well welcoming to everyone.

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Speaker 1: He was very confident in dealing with people like he

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Speaker 1: He was just like one of those people that people

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Speaker 1: love to be around, which is pretty wonderful. And it's

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Speaker 1: a little hard to work that into his life story.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that I kept coming back to is

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Speaker 1: all of the issues of identity that he was dealing with,

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Speaker 1: because obviously, I mean, we talked about it, you know,

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Speaker 1: this idea of racial identity and being black but in

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Speaker 1: a completely non black culture. As much as anybody wants

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Speaker 1: to try to support and protect him, like they don't

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Speaker 1: know what his life is like, they cannot understand it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so he has that, which is hard enough on

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Speaker 1: its own, but then he also has this weird situation

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Speaker 1: where he is a celebrity but also an outsider because

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Speaker 1: of it, and how weird that must feel. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: people love you but they don't they can't really know

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Speaker 1: your life or understand it, which is a very strange

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Speaker 1: place to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So just to make it like super clear, like just

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Speaker 1: to listeners, because we've talked about this on the show before,

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Speaker 1: there were black people in England, there were whole black

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Speaker 1: communities in England. It's like England has never really been

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Speaker 1: a monolithically no, no, never, But like that's not the

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Speaker 1: circles that he was really.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly me too.

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Speaker 1: It And one of the things that comes up, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's such a big topic with so many theoreticals

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Speaker 1: that there wasn't a good way to work it into

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Speaker 1: the episode proper is that he did not seem to

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Speaker 1: connect as much with any of the black communities of

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Speaker 1: England as he did with black communities in the US,

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Speaker 1: which is a kind of a fascinating and interesting. There's

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Speaker 1: no comment from him that I could find am I

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Speaker 1: some one biographer say like, we don't know about things like,

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Speaker 1: you know, Great Britain's colonization of a lot of black countries.

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Speaker 1: He never seemed to have said anything regarding that, So

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Speaker 1: those aspects we don't fully have a sense of. It's very,

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Speaker 1: very very fascinating. There are a few other interesting tidbits

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Speaker 1: about his his life, some of which are kind of

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Speaker 1: funny and a little oddly coincidental. For example, that piece

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Speaker 1: of music, that violin concerto that was on the Titanic

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Speaker 1: had incorporated a spiritual that was entitled keep Me from

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Speaker 1: Sinking Down, which people always point to you and go,

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Speaker 1: that's weird, and it is. Yeah. One of the really, really,

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Speaker 1: really interesting things to me is that we talked about

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Speaker 1: how he had to hustle constantly to keep a steady income,

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Speaker 1: and when he died, his friends and family were pretty

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Speaker 1: shocked that he was not in a better financial situation.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't like a person that left behind a ton

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Speaker 1: of debt, but like he should have been wealthy for

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Speaker 1: how well known he was, how popular his work was,

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Speaker 1: and because of that coming out it was a scandal,

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Speaker 1: and that is really one of the things that catalyzes

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Speaker 1: the formation of the Performing Rights Society in Great Britain

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Speaker 1: that lobbied for legislation to ensure that artists had rights

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Speaker 1: and royalties tied into their work so that other people

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Speaker 1: could not get caught in that situation where they take

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Speaker 1: a little bit of money, especially when they're young, thinking like,

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Speaker 1: I'll just keep making more, that'll be fine, not realizing yes,

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Speaker 1: but you have made somebody else a whole lot more

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Speaker 1: money than you're ever going to see. Yeah, so that

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Speaker 1: was interesting that his life is really like a direct

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Speaker 1: on ramp to some artist protections that happened later on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is a very interesting thing we talked about W. E. B.

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Speaker 1: Du Boys being part of the Pan African conference that

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Speaker 1: he was at, which was like a three day thing.

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Speaker 1: It was not a huge one in that instance, and

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Speaker 1: he was he did keep in touch with people in

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Speaker 1: that movement and he was friends with Du Boys. And

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Speaker 1: what's really interesting is that he also became very good

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Speaker 1: friends with Booker T. Washington, who had very different ideologies

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Speaker 1: about how black people could like make their way in

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Speaker 1: the world and how they were going to survive, thrive,

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Speaker 1: you know, really be given the opportunities and rights that

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Speaker 1: they were they were entitled to you. And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: because Coleridge Taylor was friends with both of them, but

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Speaker 1: we don't know how much he sat in between, like

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Speaker 1: how much he juggled those issues between them, or if

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Speaker 1: that was like off the table and they were just

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Speaker 1: friends separately and they didn't talk about each other.

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Speaker 2: We don't know.

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Speaker 1: Right, there's a really awkward thing that has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with Samuel Coleridge Taylor, but his memory and how

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Speaker 1: people were honoring it, which is that for about fifteen

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Speaker 1: years in the twenties and thirties, the Royal Albert Hall

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Speaker 1: had an annual what they called a Hiawatha season. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and so it is a bunch of English kids dressed

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Speaker 1: the way they think Native Americans were dress and it

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Speaker 1: was like this big theatrical production where there were dancers,

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Speaker 1: they put up you know, wigwams. Even just saying that word,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, a oh yeah. There was allegedly at least

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Speaker 1: one actual Native American involved in all of this, but

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Speaker 1: like the one picture I saw, which is which I

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Speaker 1: saw online, I was like, oh, this looks like those

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Speaker 1: bad renditions of what people think a culture is and

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Speaker 1: that they're celebrating it when really they're caricaturing it. And

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of appropriation that's super weird. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's having grown up m you know, in a time

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Speaker 1: where we had Thanksgiving celebrations that involved making Pilgrim hats

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Speaker 1: and headdresses out of paper and yep. Knowing people today

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Speaker 1: whose kids are in elementary school who have had fights

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Speaker 1: with their school administration about like, hey, this thing that

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Speaker 1: we're doing in the classroom for this is disrespectful. Like

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Speaker 1: I have layers of yikes, is what I'm trying to say.

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Speaker 1: Oh so much, so much. Yeah, yeah, I just want

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Speaker 1: to point that out. Should you go looking for stuff

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Speaker 1: about him, you're going to run into that have anything

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Speaker 1: to do with that. It was it was started like

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Speaker 1: more than a decade after he had passed. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I mean I will say though you will also

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Speaker 1: see pictures of his son, Hiawatha, in what is believed

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Speaker 1: to be Native American costume on occasion as a kid.

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Speaker 2: You know, the.

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Speaker 1: Everything has weirdness. Thankfully we there. There's evolution of information,

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Speaker 1: and we theoretically no more now than we did. I

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Speaker 1: always presume that I still don't know anything. I take

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Speaker 1: the Socrates approach of I know only that I know nothing,

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Speaker 1: ha ha, Because you know, we talk about it all

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Speaker 1: the time, what we know and understand, even outside of

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Speaker 1: any like discussions of cultural appropriation or understanding people that

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Speaker 1: grew up in ways we did not. Even things that

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Speaker 1: happen in like societies that look exactly like us that

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Speaker 1: we are a part of, we don't always understand, and

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Speaker 1: new things come up and evolve our understanding of it.

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Speaker 1: So I'm I know only that I know nothing, but

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Speaker 1: I'm always willing to learn whatever comes next. I really

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Speaker 1: hope people go listen to his work because it's awfully beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Like I understand why Hiawatha's wedding feast was so popular.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a sense of how he felt about

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Speaker 1: the fact that he never had a success on that level. Again, right, like,

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Speaker 1: when you're a young up and comer and your first

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Speaker 1: big thing is really big and then nothing else lives

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Speaker 1: up to it, that's gotta be tricky. But he seemed

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Speaker 1: to just constantly be producing. There were other pieces he

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Speaker 1: thought were as good as that in his ovra, but

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Speaker 1: perhaps because he did die so young, he is spared

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Speaker 1: the late in life looking back and feeling regretful about things.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, anyway, Samuel Kohlers Taylor, please go listen to

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Speaker 1: his music. It's so beautiful. There are people that like

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Speaker 1: are dedicating their lives to reintroducing that to as many

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Speaker 1: people as possible to. Yeah, really studying him in his

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Speaker 1: life and his music, and I'm am grateful to all

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Speaker 1: of them. We talked about tomatoes this week and whether

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Speaker 1: they are foods or vegetables in the view of the court,

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Speaker 1: including some incredibly silly court activity of just reading dictionary

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Speaker 1: definitions as like the whole case. Yeah, read definitions out

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Speaker 1: of the dictionary. A number of things came up during

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Speaker 1: they're in the research for this that I wound up

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Speaker 1: not putting in because, as we said, there's fifty something

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Speaker 1: cases at least that's what came up in the search.

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Speaker 1: Fifty something cases at least in state and federal court

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Speaker 1: that specifically cite Nicks versus Head. There are are a

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Speaker 1: ton of additional cases that are specifically about what words

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Speaker 1: mean that don't actually cite Nicks versus Head, And originally

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Speaker 1: I had some of them, and I was like, this

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Speaker 1: is going to become.

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Speaker 2: A whole thing.

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Speaker 1: So there's toy Bis versus United States and Hasbro versus

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Speaker 1: United States. They both involved whether action figures were toys

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Speaker 1: or dolls. I mean that is playing out constantly in many.

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Speaker 2: Bill things that preoccupies people.

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Speaker 1: One of honestly my favorites, and also the seemingly absurd,

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Speaker 1: which I was talking about this over Memorial Days. A

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Speaker 1: friend of mine had a gathering out at their house

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Speaker 1: and we were hanging out outside, eating some food, just talking,

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Speaker 1: and I was talking about this whole thing about the

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Speaker 1: vegetables and tomatoes and fruit and Supreme Court, and a

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Speaker 1: team who was taking a constitutional law class at school,

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Speaker 1: which I thought was really cool, brought up one of

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Speaker 1: the ones that had been particularly intriguing to me, which

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Speaker 1: was the twenty fifteen Supreme Court decision in Yates versus

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Speaker 1: the United States that found that fish were not tangible objects.

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Speaker 1: So what happened in this case was there was a

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Speaker 1: fishing boat operator named John L. Yeates who was fishing

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Speaker 1: in the Gulf of Mexico and the Florida Fish and

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Speaker 1: Wildlife Conservation Commission came up and inspected his boat and

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Speaker 1: found that he had seventy two fish that were smaller

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Speaker 1: than the legal limit, and so they were like, you

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Speaker 1: got to keep these fish and bring them to port

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Speaker 1: with you and we will assess things there. And what

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Speaker 1: instead he apparently did was that he threw those fish

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Speaker 1: overboard and replaced them with different fish. So they took

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Speaker 1: him to court, ruling that he had destroyed a tangible

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Speaker 1: object quote a tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct,

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Speaker 1: or influence a governmental investigation. So this seems incredibly obvious,

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Speaker 1: right that phish would be tangible objects. They are objects,

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Speaker 1: They are tangible. However, the statute that was at play

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Speaker 1: here was part of the Sarbanes Oxley Act of two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two, which was about fraud and financial crimes,

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Speaker 1: passed in the wake of the Enron scandal, and the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court found that, no, in this context, the tangible

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Speaker 1: objects are things like financial records and not fish. So

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Speaker 1: really it's almost like the problem was in what he

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Speaker 1: was charged with, not yeah, anything else. I mean, having

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Speaker 1: done some deep sea fishing and had that moment of

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Speaker 1: we gotta throw this fish back.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: Usually have to fishes us it's not worth eating anyway,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Well, this was a.

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Speaker 1: Commercial fishing boat, so like, I don't know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know the details of like what method was being used

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Speaker 1: to fish, whether they were.

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Speaker 2: Right, they may not have been sorting at that level, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But uh, but the fish not being tangible objects is

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Speaker 1: the part that was really hilarious to me. I have

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Speaker 1: a friend who used to work as an accountant at

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Speaker 1: a hotel chain. One of the things that she would

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Speaker 1: talk about.

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Speaker 2: Was that.

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Speaker 1: Big marshmallows and one of the states they were operating

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Speaker 1: big marshmallows that's food, but little marshmallows that's candy. So

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Speaker 1: when the hotel chain was like procuring marshmallows to use

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Speaker 1: and you know whatever in the kitchen, they had to

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Speaker 1: keep up with whether they were big marshmallows or little

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Speaker 1: marshmallows because the tax rate was different on food versus candy.

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Speaker 1: Can I just tell you, as a marshmallow person, that

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Speaker 1: makes all the sense on earth?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean sure, I mean I will if I make

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Speaker 1: a tray of marshmallows, I'll cut a big piece and

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Speaker 1: kind of call it lunch sometimes. But I don't think

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Speaker 1: I would do that with little marshmallows.

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Speaker 2: It's too much pain. Those are accoutramole. One of the.

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Speaker 1: Things that I noted to maybe talk about in the

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes has nothing to do with this case.

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Speaker 1: It only has to do with tomatoes.

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Speaker 2: Bring it on. I have feelings about tomatoes. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Well, years ago, I was on my honeymoon in Iceland

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Speaker 1: and we had been given a map by the concierge

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Speaker 1: at a hotel. And I'm not going to try to

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Speaker 1: pronounce this name because it has some phonemes in it

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Speaker 1: that are in ice Lambic and not in English. But

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Speaker 1: it had this word written on it, like it was

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Speaker 1: a printed map with places labeled to go. But then

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Speaker 1: there was this one note written on there in pen

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Speaker 1: and we were like, what is this and we drove

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Speaker 1: past a sign for it. I was like, Oh, that's

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Speaker 1: the sign for that thing that's on this printed out

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Speaker 1: map that the concierge gave us. And we're like, well,

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Speaker 1: tomorrow morning, we'll check it out. So we go check

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Speaker 1: it out. It turns out that it is the Greenhouse Farm,

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Speaker 1: where something like eighty percent of the tomatoes for all

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Speaker 1: of Iceland are grown.

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Speaker 2: You are naughty. You have just been to Iceland. Did

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Speaker 2: you get to go to this?

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Speaker 1: No? But I talked a lot to several locals about

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Speaker 1: like their efforts, particularly in recent years, to be able

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Speaker 1: to grow more of their own fruits and vegetables, and

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Speaker 1: how you know that is not a hospitable climate for

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Speaker 1: those kinds of things, right, There's there is a lot

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Speaker 1: of game there that made except a lot of the diet,

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Speaker 1: but in terms of fruits and vegetables, it all has

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Speaker 1: to be imported and it's very expensive. So they have

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Speaker 1: been working in like hydroponic gardening and all kinds of

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Speaker 1: other very modern gardening approaches to try to make these.

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Speaker 1: So I do know the place you're talking about. I

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Speaker 1: did not go in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So you can just google Iceland Tomato Farm Restaurant

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Speaker 1: and you'll find it right there. But you can go

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Speaker 1: into the Greenhouse and they have a little restaurant there

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Speaker 1: and they everything they serve, they only serve a couple

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Speaker 1: of different different dishes. They're all made with tomatoes. I

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Speaker 1: think Patrick got like a pasta with a tomato sauce.

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Speaker 1: I got this bottomless tomato soup with as much delicious

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Speaker 1: bread as you want. There's little little bee hives. I

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Speaker 1: think they were like solitary bees that were mostly so

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Speaker 1: there's like bees. You can see the bees pollinating the

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Speaker 1: tomato plants. We had a great time in Iceland. We

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Speaker 1: were there at the end of April beginning of May,

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Speaker 1: so it was very cold and rainy and windy for

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Speaker 1: a lot of the time and stuff bling onto this

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Speaker 1: place that was a warm hot house full of tomato

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Speaker 1: plants was magical. And tomatoes are not even like my

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Speaker 1: favorite of the foods. I do love tomato soup a

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Speaker 1: whole lot. I do love pastas that have tomato sauces

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Speaker 1: that are I love that whole lot. But yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was like this one of the most magical things that

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Speaker 1: has happened, and I loved it and had a great time.

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Speaker 1: Iceland is spectacular. I did not anticipate falling in love

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Speaker 1: with Iceland as much as I did. The hot dogs.

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Speaker 2: I love them.

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Speaker 1: The reason we did not go to that place is

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Speaker 1: because I hate tomatoes. Yeah, like, tomato soup to me

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Speaker 1: is one of the grossest things on the planet. My

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Speaker 1: husband loves it. It's just the acid taste of tomato

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Speaker 1: to me utterly vile. As I have gotten older, sometimes

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Speaker 1: tomatoes are a little more difficult for me in terms

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Speaker 1: of like the heart right, like is it gonna be

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Speaker 1: is this gonna be worth it? This particular TOMATOESH So

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Speaker 1: I love tomato soup. I have come to love like

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Speaker 1: a really well made bloody mary. That's not a thing

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Speaker 1: that I liked when when I first tried one. And

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Speaker 1: as I said, like pasta sauces that are made with tomatoes,

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff like shack chukua.

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Speaker 2: We talked about sometimes I will make that as a dinner.

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Speaker 2: Love that.

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Speaker 1: When I was a kid, there were a lot of

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Speaker 1: food textures that I just could not deal with, and

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Speaker 1: one of them was like big chunks of tomato.

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Speaker 2: So it was like my mom would make.

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Speaker 1: This pasta sauce like spaghetti sauce that had tomatoes. She

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Speaker 1: would like cook all day and had these chunks of

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Speaker 1: tomatoes in it, and I just could not deal with them.

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Speaker 2: No. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And even today, if I have like a salad that

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Speaker 1: has big chunks of tomato or a sandwich that has

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Speaker 1: a big slice of tomato, that's not my favorite part

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Speaker 1: of it. But I it's no longer quite the issue

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Speaker 1: that it was when I was a child. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I could still eat tomatoes, and I do when

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Speaker 1: they show up on a salad, because I recognize they

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Speaker 1: have things that are beneficial to humans.

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Speaker 2: But I would never ever ever choose it.

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Speaker 1: If I go to someone's house and they're like, we

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Speaker 1: made dinner and it is tomato based, I will eat

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Speaker 1: it and they will not know that I hate tomatoes.

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Speaker 2: But I mean.

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Speaker 1: No, do you remember on the Splendid Table. Okay, this

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Speaker 1: is a ways back when Lynn Rosetta Casper was still

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Speaker 1: the host and a tomato developer. I'm not sure what

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Speaker 1: the right word is there, basically like developed a tomato, yeah,

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Speaker 1: just for.

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Speaker 2: Her name, the tomato for her, Yeah, I remember.

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Speaker 1: It's the Lynn Rosetto Casper tomato. And she got to

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Speaker 1: pick from like fifty different types that they had cultivated

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Speaker 1: which one was her tomato. And I loved that up

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Speaker 1: a so so much. It is stuck with me as

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Speaker 1: much as I do not love tomatoes. Listening to her

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Speaker 1: speak so beautifully and poetically about the flavors of different tomatoes,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I should give these another try, and

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Speaker 1: then this happens to me repeatedly. I never learn where

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Speaker 1: I'll hear someone talk about tomatoes like they're just oh beautiful,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm not giving them a chance. And

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Speaker 1: then I have a tomato and I go, no, I

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Speaker 1: still don't like that, Like what was I thinking? I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty words don't make tomatoes taste good to my baladce.

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Speaker 2: This is me and every melon rights.

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Speaker 1: As we have discussed, I do not like any melon tomatoes.

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Speaker 1: I just like the idea of a lot of people

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Speaker 1: reading words to each other from the dictionary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I.

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Speaker 1: Feel like this is emblematic of like a thing that

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Speaker 1: if everyone could just accept it, particularly a non legal context,

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Speaker 1: life could be ease, both easier and more. They're full

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Speaker 1: of delight and wonder because words have different meanings to

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Speaker 1: different people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And if instead of arguing over who's right, you just

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Speaker 1: sort of listen to people talk about their version of it,

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Speaker 1: usually that's very interesting, right. Yes, I actually love these distinctions,

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Speaker 1: and it irritates me a little bit when there's a

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Speaker 1: like on TikTok, when a term like moves out of

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Speaker 1: one group and into a different group, and or people

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Speaker 1: are acting like the first group is wrong.

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Speaker 2: And where I see this all the time.

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Speaker 1: Is bodybuilders talk about being on PREP as being when

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Speaker 1: they are on like a very low carb, high protein

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Speaker 1: diet preparing for a competition or something similar to people

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Speaker 1: who are on PREP as HIV prevention. That has a

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Speaker 1: totally different meaning. And so occasionally the TikTok algorithm will

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Speaker 1: show me some admittedly hilarious responses, but I'm also like,

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Speaker 1: these two things mean two things, and it's fine for

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Speaker 1: it to mean two things. Do you remember also the

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Speaker 1: whole ketchup as a vegetable controversy? Yeah, I thought about

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Speaker 1: putting something in there. It has several waves, Like there's

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Speaker 1: one that happened during the Reagan administration where there was

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Speaker 1: a discussion about potentially, you know, giving it was described

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Speaker 1: as flexibility to school lunch programs, they could count it

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Speaker 1: as a vegetable under the USDA's Food and Nutrition Service.

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Speaker 1: And then there was another thing that came up more

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Speaker 1: recently about tomato paste and pizza being allowed to be

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Speaker 1: counted as a vegetable serving starting amount of tom Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah that. I can't say what my mother would have

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Speaker 1: called that, because it's foul language, but it makes me laugh,

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Speaker 1: but it is a little pick and knits at that point, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a kid in school, so I feel.

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Speaker 1: Like I can't really Yeah, I'm not a school administrator

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Speaker 1: and I do not have a child in school, so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I thought about putting something in there about that, and

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Speaker 1: it was along with fish not being tangible objects. I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is a whole other thing.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, Happy Friday. Whatever's happening on your weekend. I

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Speaker 1: hope it's great. If you love tomatoes, I hope you

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Speaker 1: get to eat some delicious tomatoes. And if you hate them,

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Speaker 1: I hope nobody tries to feed them to you. Uh.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow and something

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Speaker 1: brand new on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class

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00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.