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Speaker 1: M what's being insulted by a Sophie My me. I'm

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans hosted Behind the Bastards. Sophie is angry at

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Speaker 1: me because I funked up and tried to start the

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Speaker 1: episode before we were ready. We don't know what's up

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Speaker 1: or down here. We don't know what's up or down.

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Speaker 1: I I can't stop thinking about this perry A case

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Speaker 1: that I'm none of us can sweating. It's like the

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Speaker 1: sort of Damocles, but instead of being a sword held

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Speaker 1: up by a single string or whatever the hell was

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Speaker 1: sort of Damocles was, It's a case of perry A

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Speaker 1: that I'm just going to throw for no good reason.

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Speaker 1: That's the only reason is that he's been saying. His

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Speaker 1: reason is that he's been saying it. But that's not

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Speaker 1: a good reason. No, it's not. And it's a problem

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Speaker 1: that I have, and like with a drug problem, the

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Speaker 1: only way to really get over it is to do

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Speaker 1: the most dangerous version of it you can possibly do. Advice,

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Speaker 1: there are other ways. Nope, I would look that up

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Speaker 1: or talk to a professional for to decide to throw that.

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Speaker 1: I think I have to do this episode. When it

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Speaker 1: comes to throwing things in this room. There's no professional

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Speaker 1: more experience than me. Yeah, I accept that. I love professional.

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Speaker 1: Convinced you should throw it first, Let's start chapter six,

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Speaker 1: The Perfect Soldier. Yeah. The night Seditious conspiracy trial held

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Speaker 1: important lessons for the chief minds behind the white supremacist

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Speaker 1: movement when they leaned into their patriotism, their love of

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Speaker 1: an America that was white and Christian but America. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: they could draw significant sympathy from their fellow white men

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Speaker 1: and women Swasti cousin clan robes, who are much less

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Speaker 1: useful than tearful stories of hippie protesters spitting on flags.

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Speaker 1: The saw continuous growth of both the survivalist and the

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Speaker 1: American militia movement. Neither of these things was inherently white supremacist,

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Speaker 1: but beeman As colleagues have been remarkably successful at seating

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Speaker 1: their propaganda into gun shows and conventions. As a result,

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Speaker 1: the early nineties brought them a whole crop of fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: men and women who did not identify as not season

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Speaker 1: had never held clan membership, but who were also quite

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Speaker 1: capable of reading the Turner Diaries and identifying with its message.

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Speaker 1: Randy Weaver is a perfect example of this new sort

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Speaker 1: of recruit. He was a former Green Beret, a patriot

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Speaker 1: who loved his country and working with his hands. He

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Speaker 1: and his wife, Vicky were Christian Conservatives. They fell in

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Speaker 1: love with the first generation of evangelical TV preachers, men

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Speaker 1: like Jerry Folwell. They also read a book called The

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Speaker 1: Late Great Planet Earth by how Lindsay, which focused around

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Speaker 1: using the Bible to predict the near future. Lindsay's book

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Speaker 1: convinced Randy and Vicky that Gog, an anti Christian empire

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Speaker 1: from the Book of Ezekiel, was the Soviet Union. God

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Speaker 1: I did say, God Yeah. They became more and more

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Speaker 1: drawn into conspiracy theories and convinced themselves that a great

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Speaker 1: and fiery apocalypse was intimate, imminent and a quote next

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Speaker 1: from American Experience by PBS concerned citizens, they set out

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Speaker 1: to spread the word. They were unable to find a

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Speaker 1: church that approached these matters with what they felt was

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Speaker 1: the appropriate level of seriousness, so they held their own

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Speaker 1: Bible studies with like minded friends and neighbors. This sparked

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Speaker 1: the attention of a local reporter who came to do

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Speaker 1: a story on them. The Weavers, Walter learned, did not

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Speaker 1: appreciate the results. They felt betrayed, but they had never

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Speaker 1: been more sharing their beliefs. A great conflagration was coming,

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Speaker 1: and they felt increasingly unsafe in Iowa. Vicky started having

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Speaker 1: visions in the bathtub. God was speaking to her, and

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Speaker 1: God was telling her to go west to find for

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Speaker 1: her family a mountain top. They would be safe there.

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Speaker 1: The Weavers moved to a place that would later come

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Speaker 1: to be called Ruby Ridge in Idaho, not far from

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Speaker 1: Richard Butler's Aryan Nations compound. Randy Weaver began to visit

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Speaker 1: the compound, attending several events and making a few friends

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Speaker 1: among the neo Nazis. The exact nature of what he

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Speaker 1: believed precisely is unclear and heavily debated. It seems that

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Speaker 1: he identified with some aspects of Christian identity theology, and

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Speaker 1: it's safe to say he was racist by normal people standards.

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Speaker 1: But it's also fair to say that Randy Weaver was

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Speaker 1: not really a Nazi or even an ideological white supremacist.

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Speaker 1: He hung around Arian Nations because he lived in the

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Speaker 1: middle of nowhere. They were the only people to hang with,

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Speaker 1: and he just didn't care about their racism. Ok. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was not the kind of man who'd have joined

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Speaker 1: a group like the Order, but he would come to

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Speaker 1: play an important role in the next step of the

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Speaker 1: white supremacist movement. Don't don't hang out with that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing. Like you're like, you're like, okay, well, ever,

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Speaker 1: I know he's evil, but he's kind of cool in

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Speaker 1: this aspect. I'll be buds with this person. Yeah, that's how.

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Speaker 1: That's how, that's how. That's how Nazis has Nazi friends. Ye. Now,

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Speaker 1: the FBI wound up wire tapping several of the fascists

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Speaker 1: that Roundy Weaver befriended, was quite immediately obvious to them

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Speaker 1: that Mr. Weaver had no plans to overthrow the government,

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Speaker 1: sparker race war, or do anything more subversive than live

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Speaker 1: off the land with this family and picnic with Nazis

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Speaker 1: from time to time. In fact, when other people in

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Speaker 1: these wire tap conversations, which are just committing crimes, Randy

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Speaker 1: would usually say something like, we don't really go in

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Speaker 1: for that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it's a better response for

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Speaker 1: lynchings than sure, but it's not a great response. Well,

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Speaker 1: the FEDS knew Randy wasn't really dangerous. They saw him

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Speaker 1: as the perfect guy to approach is an inform. He

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Speaker 1: wasn't a true believer and he was very poor. If

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Speaker 1: they could entrap him into committing a crime, they could

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Speaker 1: scare him with prison time until he agreed to wear

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Speaker 1: a wire and helped him catch him up a big

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Speaker 1: fish in the Arian Nations community. Awful offer money, yeah,

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Speaker 1: just offer him start like that. Yeah, he's not a

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Speaker 1: true believer and he's poor. Yeah, okay, so I offer

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Speaker 1: money to help you out. That's not what they do

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Speaker 1: and it just sucks. Like yeah. An undercover agent approached

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Speaker 1: Randy and offered him good money to illegally saw off

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Speaker 1: a couple of shotguns. Now, Randy was not a believer

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Speaker 1: in the legitimacy of American gun control regulations and he

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Speaker 1: needed to cash, so he happily acquiesced and was subsequently

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Speaker 1: busted for it. The Feds made their offer and Randy

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Speaker 1: refused them. He was arrested on federal firearms charges and

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Speaker 1: taken to jail. Randy made bail, though, and he fled

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Speaker 1: back to Ruby Ridge and hold up with his family

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Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of guns and the hope that

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Speaker 1: the federal allies would not follow. They did but the

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Speaker 1: attempted arrest did not go well. The U. S. Marshall

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Speaker 1: was shot dead by the Weaver clan and the authority

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Speaker 1: He's responded with a blizzard of indiscriminate gunfire which killed

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Speaker 1: Randy's fourteen year old son, the family dog, and his

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Speaker 1: unarmed wife Vicky. They were trapped in the cabin with

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Speaker 1: her corpse for like days. It was hard. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a terrible story. A standoff in suit. The law came

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Speaker 1: in with helicopters, armored vehicles and the kind of militarized

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Speaker 1: police that looked familiar to us now, but we're new

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Speaker 1: when terrifying. Back in nineteen two, the media descended on

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Speaker 1: Ruby Ridge too, and the assault on the Weaver families

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Speaker 1: was spread virally throughout the far right. The Weavers were

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Speaker 1: the perfect poster family to illustrate government overreach. Footage of

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Speaker 1: black helicopters hovering over Ruby Ridge and sat like pictures

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Speaker 1: of Vicky Weaver were almost tailor made to sell the

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Speaker 1: idea that the New World Order was coming for decent,

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Speaker 1: white Christian gun owning Americans. Well, yeah, he handed that

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Speaker 1: one out on the platter. Yep. Louis Beam and his

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Speaker 1: fellow fascists knew a great opportunity when one came a knocking. Later,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two, while Ruby Ridge was still in

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Speaker 1: the news, the leading minds of the white supremacist movement

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Speaker 1: gathered in Estes Park, Colorado, for a summit on how

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Speaker 1: precisely they could use this tragedy to their advantage. The

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Speaker 1: summit was convened by Pete Peters, a Christian identity preacher

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Speaker 1: from Colorado and the head of a sizeable Christian identity church,

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Speaker 1: the Lapport Church of Christ. Here's how Leonard Zeskin summarizes

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Speaker 1: the proceedings in Blood and Politics. For two and a

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Speaker 1: half days, they met in committee, deliberated in plinary sessions,

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Speaker 1: and engaged in the kind of one on one conversations

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Speaker 1: known in the parlance of business professionals as networking. They

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Speaker 1: made decisions in the name of Jesus Christ and Yahweh,

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Speaker 1: sang onward Christian soldiers, and otherwise conducted themselves in a

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Speaker 1: manner of quiet resolve appropriate for their surroundings, and y

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Speaker 1: m c a facility abudding the park. No guns were waived,

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Speaker 1: and even the most heated rhetorics seemed to have the

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Speaker 1: blood drained out of it. Estes Park signified a radical

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Speaker 1: shift in the tactics of the white power movement, like

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Speaker 1: the through Aryan Nations Congress. We mostly know it was

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Speaker 1: disgusted at Estes Park. Because of the things that happened

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Speaker 1: after it, the Nazis started reaching out to more moderate Americans.

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Speaker 1: Louis Beam published an article in his new magazine ironically

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Speaker 1: named the Seditionist because he'd gotten been declared innocent of sedition.

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Speaker 1: He called for leaderless resistance in the a of Ruby Ridge.

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Speaker 1: Big Star one militia with members in Texas, Oklahoma, and

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Speaker 1: New Mexico, carried out grenade launcher and mortar training exercises

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Speaker 1: in rural Texas. The Montana Militia published a guide book

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Speaker 1: on how to engage in domestic terrorism. In nineteen, law

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Speaker 1: enforcement across the nation found thirteen explosives. Cash is meant

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Speaker 1: to be used in attacks is varied as a National

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Speaker 1: Afro American museum in Ohio and a Black church in

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles. None of this made the news in a

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Speaker 1: big way because of something that happened in mid nineteen,

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Speaker 1: the siege of the Branch Davidian Compound in Waco, Texas.

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Speaker 1: The Branch Davidians were not a Christian identity sect and

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Speaker 1: their leader, David Koresh, was not affiliated with the White

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Speaker 1: Supermansist movement. But the a t F siege of their

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Speaker 1: compounds so soon after Ruby Ridge was easy for Louis

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Speaker 1: Beam and his comrades to propagandizes around. Now, this is

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Speaker 1: not an audio book about the Waco disaster, and I

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Speaker 1: won't even try to cover what happened there in detail.

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Speaker 1: What's important for our purposes is the end result. On

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Speaker 1: February nine, a t F agents attempted to serve a

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Speaker 1: search warrant about sexual abuse and illegal weapons charges people

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Speaker 1: inside the compound open fire. Four agents, five branch Davidians

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Speaker 1: were killed, and the situation evolved into a bloody siege.

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Speaker 1: In April, Mnintaine, the FBI, who taken control of the situation,

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Speaker 1: launched an assault on the compound. In the ensuing melee,

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Speaker 1: several fires broke out and quickly swept through the structures.

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Speaker 1: By the time the smoke had cleared and it was

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Speaker 1: all over, fifty three adults and twenty three children were dead.

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Speaker 1: Not many. Yeah, it was a funkload of people. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The whole tragedy was in arguably a clusterfuck on behalf

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Speaker 1: of the federal government, which of course helped groups like

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Speaker 1: the Fashions more people. Yeah, so they'd started after ss

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Speaker 1: park like reaching out to militias and stuff, and again

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Speaker 1: trying to like um propagandizing directly to militias, being like,

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Speaker 1: instead of just sending out like Nazi propaganda to guys

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Speaker 1: who aren't going to bide in Nazis, what if we

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Speaker 1: focus on like pictures of this dead woman, like dead

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Speaker 1: white woman killed by the government and try to scare

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Speaker 1: them that way, and then you know, if they if

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Speaker 1: they're interested in that, maybe they'll gradually start reading some

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Speaker 1: of our other terrorist propaganda. So Kirk Lyons, a close

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Speaker 1: friend of Louis Beam and a white supremacist militia leader himself,

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Speaker 1: sent out an issue of his group's fundraising newsletter that

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Speaker 1: featured a photo of a spiling fourteen year old girl

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Speaker 1: who died in the Waco siege. The girl was, of

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Speaker 1: course white, and her photo was captioned, why we Fight.

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Speaker 1: There were dozens, hundreds, and eventually thousands of other similar

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Speaker 1: pieces of propaganda. Gradually, day by day and month by month,

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Speaker 1: explicitly fascist white supremacist groups began to wrap their ideological

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Speaker 1: claws around the militia movement and suck in ever more patriots.

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Speaker 1: British journalist John Ronson was one of the few reporters

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Speaker 1: who spend a great deal of time embedded with the

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Speaker 1: fringe right during this period. He actually visited the ruins

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Speaker 1: of the Branch Davidian compound several years after the siege

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Speaker 1: with Randy Weaver in Toll. They wound up having a

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Speaker 1: conversation with several members of the Michigan Militia who were

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Speaker 1: there taking part in a vigil for the people who

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Speaker 1: died at Waco. One of these people told him, we

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Speaker 1: are here to ask for these people's forgiveness for sitting

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Speaker 1: around on our butts and watching it on TV. What

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Speaker 1: happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco will never happen again

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Speaker 1: under any circumstances. If it does, there will be immediate retaliation,

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Speaker 1: armed resistance from the Michigan Militia. Now, the Michigan Militia

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Speaker 1: in this time had about twelve thousand members, which was

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Speaker 1: a significant searche for it in the wake of Ruby

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Speaker 1: Ridge and Waco. One of those members was a young

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Speaker 1: Desert storm veteran named Tim McVeigh. Here we go. Timothy

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Speaker 1: McVeigh was born. Oh wait, it's time for an ad plug,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. Sophie. You know what, I think you really

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Speaker 1: are great at this. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: You know there's nothing that goes with Tim McVeigh like well,

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Speaker 1: fertilizer bomb. But other than a fertilizer bomb. No, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: you're saying that's not a good ad plug. Um, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of things better than McVeigh, and those

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Speaker 1: things are the ease. You know what does less damage

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Speaker 1: the Tim McVey the products and services advertised on this show.

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Speaker 1: You gotta pick one of these, Sophie. That one's great.

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Speaker 1: All right, perfect, let's roll to Dick Pills. We're back.

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Speaker 1: We're back. We're talking about how good I am at

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Speaker 1: making ad plugs. Start talking about that. Still talking about

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Speaker 1: this is good. I can talking about it. You know.

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Speaker 1: I can't stop talking about this case of perry A. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: just listen to that. It has to be thrown. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. There's only ten. There aren't twelve. Yeah, there aren't.

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Speaker 1: So it's safe. It's you it. No, I have to

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Speaker 1: I have to. Well. Timothy McVeigh so uh. He was

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Speaker 1: born on April. McVeigh grew up in Pendleton, New York,

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Speaker 1: and had an early childhood that was pretty standard for

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Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties. He watched Gumby and Truth or Consequences.

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Speaker 1: He played cowboys and Indians or cops and robbers with

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Speaker 1: other kids in the neighborhood. Timberford playing the good guys

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Speaker 1: as he saw them, cops or cowboys wherever possible. He

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Speaker 1: was sickly and somewhat prone to act sentence, hurting himself

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Speaker 1: in all sorts of ways young boys who spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time and in the woods tend to do.

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Speaker 1: Tim was an energetic boy, and he might have been

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Speaker 1: someone who'd wound up on riddle and had he been

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Speaker 1: born a decade or two later. He was constantly in

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Speaker 1: trouble from minor things. But he also had a good heart,

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Speaker 1: as this story from American Terrorist, the Fantastic Biography of

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Speaker 1: McVeigh makes clear. Tim was playing near the pond when

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Speaker 1: he noticed one of the older neighborhood boys carrying a

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Speaker 1: burlap sack. The sack was weighted down with rocks, but

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Speaker 1: the curious Tim could see there was something else wriggling

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Speaker 1: in the sack. He watched as the older boy pitched

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Speaker 1: the sack out into the pond, where it quickly sank

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Speaker 1: to the bottom. What was that, Tim asked, running to

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Speaker 1: the far shore of the pond where the neighborhood boy stood.

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Speaker 1: Those are kittens, my dad had The boy answered, in

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact tone, we had to get rid

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Speaker 1: of them. For Tim, who loved animals and especially kittens,

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Speaker 1: the realization of what he had witnessed hit him hard.

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Speaker 1: He cried about the incident for days. So part of

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Speaker 1: what we're trying to ask here is, you know, we

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Speaker 1: talked about Robert Matthews a little bit earlier. We talked

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Speaker 1: about Louis beat. These are guys who are pretty brutal.

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Speaker 1: Early on, Matthews was a drop of society from age eleven. Uh,

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Speaker 1: Louis Beam like immediately wanted to fight and go to

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Speaker 1: war and kill. Tim McVeigh is a sensitive kid who's

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Speaker 1: like heartbroken when he sees someone being cruel to animals. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's confusing. He's not the kind of guy who would

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Speaker 1: have wound up joining George Lincoln Rockwell's Nazi party, which

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Speaker 1: both Matthews and Beam are the kind of guys speared

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Speaker 1: by that um. The story of Tim McVeigh is the

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Speaker 1: story of how a young mind got enraptured with this

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Speaker 1: kind of terroristic apocalyptic ideology. Who wouldn't have gotten caught

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Speaker 1: in the first iteration of it. This is a guy

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Speaker 1: who would only have been caught by the changes made

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Speaker 1: of the movement's propaganda outreach. Interest is park. I think

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Speaker 1: that's that's the story we're talking about today. Well, good,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting. So Tim fell in love with guns at

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Speaker 1: an early age. His grandfather first took him shooting when

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Speaker 1: he was seven. This probably sounds crazy to some people,

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Speaker 1: particularly in Los Angeles where we read this, But I

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Speaker 1: started shooting at the same age that Tim did, when

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Speaker 1: I was a little kid living in fucking rural Oklahoma. Um,

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Speaker 1: so it's pretty normal in that era. And Tim's grandpa,

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Speaker 1: everyone said Ed McVeigh was a stickler about firearm safety

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Speaker 1: and considered safe gun ownership to be an integral part

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Speaker 1: of American citizenship. So he likes guns, but he doesn't

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Speaker 1: like killing things. He's like a target shooter and stuff like.

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Speaker 1: He's yeah, being small and sort of weird. Tim McVey

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Speaker 1: was a bit of a magnet for bullies. He developed

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Speaker 1: a deep hatred of bullying and a reflective rage at

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Speaker 1: the side of anything he saw his bully behavior, whether

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Speaker 1: it came from an individual or an institution. Tim's parents

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Speaker 1: divorced when they were young. His sisters chose to go

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Speaker 1: with their mother, but Tim stayed with his father so

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Speaker 1: that he would not have to be alone since the kid.

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Speaker 1: After the Oklahoma City bombing, a number of pundits would

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Speaker 1: try to tie Tim's parents divorce to his evolution as

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Speaker 1: a terrorist. This would seem to be an overstatement, but

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Speaker 1: he did tie his mother leaving his father to broader

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Speaker 1: social trends, later stating in an interview that in the

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Speaker 1: past thirty years, because of the women's movement, they've taken

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Speaker 1: an influence out of the household. Yeah. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: could see that as being a formative spot for why

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Speaker 1: you don't like women. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which maybe makes

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Speaker 1: him a little bit more sympathetic to the kind of

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Speaker 1: propaganda put out by these groups. If you start to

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Speaker 1: think of the government as boy yeah yeah. When one

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Speaker 1: reads about McVeigh, they get the feeling that had he

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Speaker 1: been born later, he might have found a home within

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Speaker 1: the alt right. For one thing, he was obsessed with

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Speaker 1: the Star Wars movies and identified heavily with Luke Skywalker

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Speaker 1: as the eighties. Yeah, special Boy, Special Boy, blowing up

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Speaker 1: the big evil thing. Yeah, special dragon Boy. As the

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Speaker 1: eighties rolled along and home computer started to become more common,

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Speaker 1: McVeigh became one of the first generation of computer nerds.

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Speaker 1: He was on the Internet before basically anyone else. His

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Speaker 1: handle on those early message boards was the Wanderer. We

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Speaker 1: can't know everywhere McVeigh went in the early Internet, but

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Speaker 1: it's unlikely to be pure coincidence that Timothy grew obsessed

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Speaker 1: with survivalism and the Second Amendment during the years he

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Speaker 1: was most involved in Nassan internet culture. It's entirely possible

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Speaker 1: he came across some of Louis Beam's writings during this time.

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Speaker 1: We know for a fact that he fell in love

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Speaker 1: with a book we've already talked about a lot in

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Speaker 1: this series. You want to guess what it is, Turner Diary.

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Speaker 1: It's rob Oh I lovely. Oh, it's beautiful, beautiful book.

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Speaker 1: But that was a lie. He he fell in love

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Speaker 1: with the Turner Diars. You were right, Katie, Yeah, God, yeah.

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Speaker 1: He first heard about the Turner Diaries from an ad

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Speaker 1: and soldier of Fortune magazine. He ordered the book by

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Speaker 1: mail and fell madly in love with it. Now for

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Speaker 1: the rest of his life, he'd insist that the book's

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Speaker 1: gun rights advocacy was what drew him to it, not

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Speaker 1: its depiction of a genocidal worldwide race war. And it's

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Speaker 1: kind of possible he was telling the truth. Again, like

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Speaker 1: Randy Weaver, Tim McVeigh is definitely a racist, but that's

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Speaker 1: not his motivation, just like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: really think he's probably telling the truth when he was

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Speaker 1: like mostly just into it because it had a lot

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Speaker 1: of violent scenes and it was about like a gun

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Speaker 1: control revolution. Like the racism he could take or leave.

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Speaker 1: That's not great. He has to be racist for this,

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Speaker 1: But he wasn't racist enough that he wouldn't have joined

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Speaker 1: the Order just because of that, exactly. Yeah, yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: post Estes Park, the Turner Diaries remained one of the

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Speaker 1: lynchpins of white supremacist recruitment in the US. Ads for

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Speaker 1: written magazines like Soldier of Fortune often posed the question,

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Speaker 1: what will you do if the government comes for your gun.

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Speaker 1: None of this is to say that McVeigh wasn't racist.

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Speaker 1: He grew up in a place where everyone was white,

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Speaker 1: at age nineteen, he got a job as a guard

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Speaker 1: on an armored car. He later recalled his colleagues expressing

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Speaker 1: casual racism towards black residents on the East side of Buffalo,

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Speaker 1: and eventually he adopted those beliefs and their propensity for

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Speaker 1: using racial slurs. Racism was a fact of Tim's life,

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Speaker 1: but again it wasn't like the main thing for him.

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Speaker 1: What was his main thing? We're guns. During his time

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Speaker 1: as a security guard, mcveah spent most of his recreational

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Speaker 1: time shooting. He eventually got in trouble with his neighbors

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Speaker 1: for doing show so, and this seems to have influenced

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Speaker 1: his desire to join the army. He basically just like

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Speaker 1: with guns. Yeah, McVeigh was an excellent recruit and by

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Speaker 1: all accounts, a very good soldier. He fell in love

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Speaker 1: with most aspects of army life, although he disliked the

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Speaker 1: emphasis training placed on killing. In a later interview, who

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Speaker 1: We're called twenty times a day, it would be blood

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Speaker 1: makes the grass grow. Kill, kill, kill. You would be

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Speaker 1: screaming that until your throat was wrong. If somebody put

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Speaker 1: a video camera on that, they would think it was

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Speaker 1: a bunch of sickos. You're right thing to say after

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Speaker 1: blowing up a federal building filled with babies, but a

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Speaker 1: valid point on base. McVeigh continued to read far right literature,

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Speaker 1: devouring conspiracy theories about the United States and the United

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Speaker 1: Nations conspiring to steal the freedoms and guns of Americans.

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Speaker 1: He handed out copies of the Turner Diaries to his

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Speaker 1: closest comrades. He was warned several times by friends who

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Speaker 1: read the book that people would think he was a

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Speaker 1: good stuff around, good for them, maybe report him all. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the go for would give Tim McVeigh his first chance

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Speaker 1: to actually use guns against other human beings, and interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: he seems to have hated it. He was not on

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Speaker 1: board with the whar from the beginning. McVeigh felt the U.

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Speaker 1: S Military should only get involved in conflicts that directly

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Speaker 1: affected the lives of American citizens. He saw the US

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Speaker 1: intervention against Iraq as bullying, and Tim McVeigh hated bullies.

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Speaker 1: When he shipped over to Iraq, McVeigh was the gunner

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Speaker 1: on a Bradley fighting vehicle during a battle in country.

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Speaker 1: He killed two Iraqi soldiers with the Bradley's very large

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Speaker 1: gun and watched in horror as their bodies disappeared into

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Speaker 1: a red missed. The incident scarred him. Unlike Louis Beam,

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Speaker 1: McVeigh did not enjoy killing. The whole war left a

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Speaker 1: bad taste in Tim's mouth. He was particularly furious when

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Speaker 1: he read about the U. S. Air Force bombing of

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Speaker 1: the a La Mira bomb shelter in Baghdad, which killed

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Speaker 1: three hundred women and children. McVeigh returned to America much

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Speaker 1: less enchanted with military life. He focused some of that

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Speaker 1: frustration on the black soldiers he served alongside. Several of

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Speaker 1: them walked around the base and black power shirts, which

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Speaker 1: infuriated Tim. He was heard several times using the in

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Speaker 1: word and a reputation for ordering some of his black

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Speaker 1: suppordinates to sweep up the motor pool. When pressed about

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Speaker 1: this later, McVeigh would point out that some of his

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Speaker 1: closest comrades in the military were black, a quote again

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Speaker 1: from American terrorist Well. He swore he never embraced racism,

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Speaker 1: McVeigh actively explored the racist point of view. He had

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Speaker 1: already begun selling copies of the Turner Diaries at gun shows,

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Speaker 1: and because of the racist content of the book, McVeigh

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Speaker 1: wound up on a mailing list for the ku klux Klan.

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Speaker 1: McVeigh claimed he had virtually no idea what the KKK

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Speaker 1: was all about. The first time he received literature from

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Speaker 1: the racist group, he was impressed by one of its pamphlets,

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Speaker 1: which expressed concerns about the law some individual rights in

425
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 1: American society and the desire to go back to the

426
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: way things were in the days of the Founding Fathers. Again,

427
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: that's that st this park stuff. McVey spent twenty dollars

428
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: for the trial membership to KKK headquarters in North Carolina.

429
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 1: One of the enticements for joining was a white power

430
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 1: T shirt that McVeigh planned to wear around Fort Riley.

431
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 1: Why would an on racist wan a white power T shirt?

432
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,880
Speaker 1: McVeigh maintained it was intended to protest what he saw

433
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 1: is the growing double standard in the army. He said

434
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 1: that he never did wear the shirt, but he made

435
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: no apologies for buying it then or now. I wanted

436
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 1: to make a point, he said. Black guys were wearing

437
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,160
Speaker 1: black power T shirts on the base they weren't supposed to.

438
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 1: I wanted to see what would happen if I wore

439
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: the white power T shirt. McVeigh didn't renew his KKK

440
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: membership when his first year was up. He had joined

441
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,159
Speaker 1: the KKK, he said, because he thought the clan was

442
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: fighting for the restoration of individual rights, especially gun rights.

443
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 1: But the more research and reading he did, the more

444
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 1: he realized that the clan was almost entirely devoted to

445
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 1: the cause of racism. Really too, I am glad you

446
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 1: did some research on well. He decided the KKK was

447
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 1: manipulated to young people, and he didn't renew his membership. Yeah,

448
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 1: he didn't. Don't values yea, values, you know, values are important,

449
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 1: and I personally love the values of the products and

450
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: services that support this show. That was so good. We're back.

451
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: We're back, and I just admitted that I would be

452
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: willing to have sex with Corey Booker m cot core

453
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 1: We wanted how we got to this conversation we're not

454
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 1: going to talk about. It's very inappropriate. Does not lend

455
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: anything to the episode. Shouldn't have admitted it not related

456
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: to the products. He has good bone structure. Though I

457
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 1: think he's cute, forget what he said anything about it. Guys,

458
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: Sophie does not think he's cute. Everyone has different opinions

459
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 1: about who they find cute. Yeah, it's not him. We

460
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: can all agree, though. Bernie's the cutest talking about bone structure.

461
00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: That guy's got Bonesteeah, he's cutie. Young Bernie is weird,

462
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 1: but you know cute. He got better looking as he

463
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: got older. Young Bernie. His wife must really been into

464
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: radical politics. Anyway, boy, this is about your uh we're

465
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: finishing this Chaplin chapter right, um. So. Tim McVeigh, like

466
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 1: Randy Weaver, was a perfect example of the sort of

467
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: man Louis Beam was hoping to reach. Not motivated enough

468
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 1: by racism too have sought out the movement, but comfortable

469
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: enough with racism and frustrated enough by mainstream American culture

470
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 1: be radicalized by the anti gun control new world order

471
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 1: conspiracies peddled by the propagandists of the white Power movement.

472
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: McVeigh opted not to re enlist after his time of

473
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: service ran out, and outside of the military, mcveigh's life

474
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: was just one frustration after another. Despite his glowing service record,

475
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: he had trouble finding work. Civil service jobs he applied

476
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: for and the state and federal government turned him down.

477
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: He convinced himself that this was because he was a

478
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: young white man and thus the victim of what he

479
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: termed reverse discrimination. That's probably a better way to say

480
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 1: It's like a more illiterate way to say that, yeah,

481
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: reverse Yeah. Affirmative action became the focus of mcphigh's thwarted ambitions.

482
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 1: He started spending more and more time around gun shows

483
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: and flirted vaguely with some malicious including the Michigan militia.

484
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 1: He started sending his sister Jennifer stories he'd read about

485
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: the Rockefeller family and their supposed control of most of

486
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: the organs of state power. The conspiracist McVeigh embraced were

487
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: not quite open neo Nazi anti Semites, but they were

488
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: kissing cousins to that kind of belief from American terrorist quote.

489
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: The brother and sisters discussions sprawled in myriad directions, from

490
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: the Bible to the Pyramid and its crowning, all seeing

491
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: I on the back of the dollar bill. McVeigh was

492
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: reading more anti government books and pamphlets, and he shared

493
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: them with his inquisitive younger sister. He wanted to expand

494
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: her perspective. Though some of the claims in the literature

495
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 1: seemed bizarre and inconceivable to Jennifer, including one writer's contention

496
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: that the government was building massive crematoriums in a hundred

497
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: and thirty concentration camps to exterminate individuals who disagreed with

498
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: federal policies. The authors of the pamphlets, anticipating skepticism, warned

499
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: that Americans risk becoming victims of it can't happen here

500
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: syndrome when it came to government usurping power from the people.

501
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: Jennifer wasn't sold on everything she read, but justice McVeigh

502
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: hoped the literature got her thinking about the government and

503
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: individual rights. She looked up to her older brother, flattered

504
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: that he thought enough of her to engage her in

505
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: political discourse. McVeigh believed that the federal government intended to

506
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: disarm the American public gradually and take away the right

507
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: to bear arms under the Second Amendment. In the summer

508
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: of nineteen nine two. He pointed to events in Ruby Ridge, Idaho.

509
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: It's proof positive that his theory was correct. Now. One

510
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: of the publications that McVeigh read during this period was

511
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: called The White Patriot. It was published by the former

512
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: KKK leader The Intempted Invader of the Island of Dominica

513
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: and the founder of Stormfront on Black Yes, that Boys Back,

514
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: That Boy's back, Black's Back. Uh. It featured articles with

515
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: titles like why is the Clan opposed to Choose? And

516
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: also hosted essays from William Pierce. As Musphay's life prospects dimmed,

517
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 1: he grew more obsessed with guns and gun shows, traveling

518
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 1: around the country selling weapons and literature and survivalist gear.

519
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,959
Speaker 1: The gun show circuit introduced him to more French right

520
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: wing literature. McVeigh began to express frustration that American women

521
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: wore unfairly withholding sex from American men. He called them

522
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: brutish and stingy. Yeah, take those words back, let's reclaim them. Yeah,

523
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: it's word that he keeps me the same story over

524
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: and over again. Yeah. When the Waco siege began, McVeigh

525
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: was instantly obsessed with the story. He drove to Mount

526
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: Carmel and sold T shirts outside the siege lions, communing

527
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: with his fellow survivalist and militiamen as they wordly waited

528
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: for the outcome. And when that outcome came, it radicalized

529
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: Tim McVeigh as nothing else could have. He read that

530
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: the government had used cs gas, which McVeigh had been

531
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: exposed to during his military training. To McVeigh, this was

532
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 1: the ultimate representation of government overreach, pure vicious, murderous, bully behavior.

533
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: McVeigh didn't stop it. Being furious about the murder of

534
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: dozens of innocent people, he became convinced that Waco was

535
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: the prelude to amass government crackdown on gun owners and freedom.

536
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: He told one friend that he suspected the FEDS had

537
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: purposely started fires in the compound. The government wanted it

538
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: to burn because the government couldn't win. The public sentiment

539
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: was changing, he said. Mcveigh's rage was reciprocated by the

540
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: other men he met on the gun show circuit, men

541
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: like Terry Nichols, a sovereign citizen whose beliefs were essentially

542
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 1: descended from the Posse Coomatatus movement. McVeigh spent time living

543
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: on nichols farm and crafting explosives small homemade bombs, initially

544
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: just for amusement, but over the months that followed Waco,

545
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: mcveigh's rage, the paranoia stoked by fears of fringe right

546
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: wing conspiracy theories and his love of the Turner Diaries

547
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: potastasized into a plan, a plan to bomb the Murray

548
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: Building in Oklahoma City. Man, Yep, it's really sad too. Yeah,

549
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: don't do it. Yeah, don't do it. Tempt, that's in

550
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: bad news. Cody. He do it. He did it, He

551
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: done did it. The structure of mcveigh's attack was directly

552
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: inspired by a passage from the Turner Diaries. At one point,

553
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: Earl Turners sell bombs the FBI's headquarters. Pierced goes into

554
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: exhaustive detail about the device they use, a truck bomb

555
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: made with pounds of ammonium nitrate, essentially the same weapon

556
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: McVeigh constructed and used to destroy the Murray Building on

557
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: the day he detonated his bomb, killing a hundred and

558
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: sixty eight people. McVeigh put together in manifesto of sorts

559
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: on an envelope in his car, and included many photo

560
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: copied pages of the Turner Diaries. McVeigh had highlighted one

561
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: passage in particular from a chunk of the book, where

562
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: Earl Turner cell carries out a mortar attack on Washington,

563
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: d C. The real value of our attack today lies

564
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: in the psychological impact, not in the immediate casualties. More importantly, though,

565
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: is what we taught the politicians and bureaucrats. They learned

566
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: this afternoon that not one of them is beyond our reach.

567
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: They can huddle behind barbed wire and tanks in the city,

568
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 1: they can hide behind the concrete walls of their country estates,

569
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: but we can still find them and kill them. Blew

570
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: up a daycare, god, man, Yeah, I really showed them. Yeah,

571
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: there was probably a daycare on the death start too.

572
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: You would think. Yes, seven was the size of the

573
00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: moon families. Tim's a Walker Vey special boy. Uh, special boys. Yeah,

574
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: a lot of kitten I'm certain there were a lot

575
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: of kittens up there in Ti McVeigh, Louis Beam and

576
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: his fellow fascists had found the perfect soldier and the

577
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: perfect exemplar of Beam's concept of leaderless resistance. He was

578
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: not a lone wolf, as some foolish pretenders of journalism

579
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: named him. McVeigh was radicalized by a constellation of writers

580
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: and thinkers, as well as hundreds of men he spoke

581
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: with a gun shows and survivalist conventions and sitting outside

582
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: the siege lines at Waco. He was radicalized by William Pierce,

583
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: who wrote the Turner Diaries, hoping desperately that someone would

584
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: do exactly what McBay did. Mcveigh's attack prompted response from

585
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: federal law enforcement, but not the one you might expect. Well,

586
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: there were some crackdowns on malicious cells and organizations. The

587
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: Justice Department largely reacted by taking a lighter hand with

588
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: white supremacists and militias. Okay, but yes, Cody, we'll see

589
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: sybe were if it stops supremacist terrorists. I didn't mean.

590
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: I didn't mean to a question. The Montana Freeman wound

591
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: up in a standoff with the federal government. As a group,

592
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: they represented a synthesis of Christian identity and posse Coomatatius

593
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: beliefs that declared themselves independent of federal control and wound

594
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: up in an eighty one day standoff with law enforcement.

595
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,239
Speaker 1: For a while, it looked like the Freeman compound might

596
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: become another Waco. Put the standoff ended peacefully. Video footage

597
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: of the twenty three adults and four children surrendering showed

598
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: no giant armored vehicles or military looking police. The FBI's

599
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: hostage rescue team wore sneakers and casual civilian clothing. McVeigh

600
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: would go to his Grave convinced that the lighter hand

601
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: used on the Montana Freeman was the result of his

602
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,959
Speaker 1: attack on Oklahoma City, and he may have been right.

603
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: According to American terrorist quote, Clinton are Van's aunt, the

604
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: former FBI agent who had tried without success to negotiate

605
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: a peaceful into the Waco standoff three years earlier, agreed

606
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: with McVeigh at least on that point. Retired from the

607
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: FBI and working as a security consultant, fan Zant fields

608
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: that the government learned a painful lesson from the Oklahoma

609
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: City bombing. In vin z Ants were the government realized

610
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: that it must become a velvet brick, not a battering ram.

611
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: What an absolute classic tragedy, van Zant had said, soon

612
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: after the conflagration at Waco. What a total indictment of

613
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: mankind's and ability to communicate and relate, even though we

614
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: have different religious or personal philosophies. While van Zant condemned

615
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City bombing, he felt that Waco had started

616
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: a war, that mcveigh's bombing had been not only an escalation,

617
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: but a turning point in that war. My only disagreement

618
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: with Mr van zandt is the idea that the war,

619
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: Mr McVeigh wound up fighting and had started with Waco.

620
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: This war had been going on much longer than that,

621
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: at least as far back as the days of George

622
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: Lincoln Rockwell. Timothy McVeigh may have seen himself as a

623
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: patriotic American, but he fought as a soldier of the

624
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: American fascist movement under general's Louis Beam and William Pierce.

625
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: The failure of the federal government and almost everyone to

626
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: see this war is one reason why things have gotten

627
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: so bad in twenty nineteen. As I write this, McVeigh

628
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,479
Speaker 1: would be joined on down through the years by dozens

629
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: of other angry young men, men like Eric Harris and

630
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: Dylan Klebold, the infamous Columbine Shooters. Most experts agree that

631
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: Harris was the prime ry motivating force behind the attacks,

632
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: more or less pulling Cleibold along with him. This is

633
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: not often reported on, but Harris was obsessed with Adolf

634
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: Hitler and Nazism. He wrote constantly about Nazi ideology, his

635
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: hatred of free speech, the press, and his desire to

636
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: see mentally defected people executed. Harris was also obsessed with

637
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: Timothy McVeigh. Dave Colan is a journalist who spent more

638
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: than a decade studying the massacre. He found regular references

639
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: to Oklahoma City and McVeigh and Harris's writings before the shooting.

640
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: Colin writes quote in his journal, Eric would brag about

641
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: topping McVeigh. Oklahoma City was a one note performance. Mcveigh's

642
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: had his timer and walked away. He didn't even see

643
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: his spectacle unfold. Harris admired McVeigh, but desperately wanted to

644
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: beat him, carrying out a larger attack and killing more people.

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00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: Do you think that well, less great things more? You

646
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: think that attitude might be accelerationism. Now, Eric Harris and

647
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: Dylan Cleebold did not succeed in their goal, or in

648
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: Harris's goal of topping Timothy McVeigh, But Harris may yet

649
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: manage to beat mcveigh's high score. In the decades since

650
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: in the shooting at Columbine, it has inspired at least

651
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: seventy four copycat attacks which have killed eighty nine people

652
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: and injured a hundred and twenty six more. You can

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00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: draw a direct line from George Lincoln Rockwell to William Pearson,

654
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: Louis Beam to Tim McVeigh, and then to Eric Harris.

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00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: By the late nineteen nineties, it was incredibly clear that

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00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: leaderless resistance as a tactic was the best weapon in

657
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: the white supremacist arsenal. But it would take the mass

658
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: adoption of the Internet in the error of the smartphone

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00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: for Louis Beam's deadliest innovation to see its full potential.

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00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk about that in the next episode

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00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: of this podcast. Terrorists should throw the period yet? Or

662
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: should I wait until we're done with the whole thing?

663
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm pretty bummed out right now. Yeah,

664
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: you're right. Maybe maybe it's time, Maybe it is time,

665
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: or maybe don't do it at all. No, I have

666
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: to do it. I have to do it. Sophie, what

667
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: do you think after the last episode? And now? How

668
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: about you throw it towards that couch? And Sophie moves away.

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00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: I can't read your your blink, Sophie, I think we're

670
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: waiting until the next episode. I really want to everything.

671
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: I want to draw this ship out. Yeah, I want

672
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: to draw this ship out. I'm gonna wait wait for

673
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: the climax. Plug your stuff. Uh that's right, Google our

674
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 1: names which are spell it right? It's Katie Stole and

675
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: Cody Johnson. Oh we have YouTube show some more news, podcast,

676
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: even more news Cody, Twitter and Patreon, dot com, slash

677
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: some more news and t public or all the things

678
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: Google if you are interested, just like google it. This

679
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: is what the six six. If you're still listening, I'm

680
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: not plugging everything at the end of these episodes. We're

681
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: not to And now we're going to do it at

682
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: the last one because it's the last one. But we've

683
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: already done it every time. I'm not in the next one.

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00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: All right. Podcast