Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Starts podcast.
Speaker 1: My guest today is photographer Lynn Goldsmith. Lynn, you have
Speaker 1: two new books. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2: Well, one of them came out in October of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, which is a book called Music in the Eighties,
Speaker 2: and the other book isn't out yet, it'll be out
Speaker 2: by November first, and that's a deluxe tashi and publication
Speaker 2: on Bruce Springsteen and the East Street Band with the
Speaker 2: possibility of you know, buying a print with the book.
Speaker 2: It's different than the Music in the Eighties book, which
Speaker 2: is Rizzoli, and that's a kind of normal what we
Speaker 2: call trade coffee table photo book. And the Book of
Speaker 2: the Eighties was actually a book that I never intended
Speaker 2: on doing because I really didn't want to think about
Speaker 2: the eighties. I had a pretty bad attitude. And it
Speaker 2: was only because my publisher really wanted me to put
Speaker 2: something together that I realized what an amazing musical decade
Speaker 2: it was in terms of so many different types of
Speaker 2: music all gaining real popularity. You know, wasn't just like
Speaker 2: jazz was in the background. Herbie Hancock was having you know,
Speaker 2: his probably biggest time in terms of selling records as
Speaker 2: well as Miles Davis's record, But then you had all
Speaker 2: this new electronic music along with rap, you know, with
Speaker 2: the Beastie Boys. So as I went through it and
Speaker 2: I realized just how free and open and how many
Speaker 2: things were possible in that decade, it got me off
Speaker 2: of thinking about the bad fashion and the bad hair,
Speaker 2: which it kind of turned me off to the eighties.
Speaker 1: Now, your other book is about Springsteen. Why Springsteen? Now,
Speaker 1: you had a love relationship with him, but that was
Speaker 1: in the past. Why now?
Speaker 2: Because Benedictashin of Tashi in Publications wanted to do a
Speaker 2: Bruce book and I wanted if I was going to
Speaker 2: do something, I wanted it to be Bruce and the
Speaker 2: E Street Band. And I thought that Tashion probably does
Speaker 2: the most beautiful job of production, and so I asked
Speaker 2: Bruce if he wanted, you know, wanted me to do that,
Speaker 2: and he did. So that was why I felt that
Speaker 2: at this time, to kind of bring back a moment
Speaker 2: that happened, you know, almost four decades ago, and which
Speaker 2: is so seminole in how Springsteen fans are so dedicated,
Speaker 2: you know, it's part of their dedication, is the whole
Speaker 2: darkness on the edge of town period, which is what
Speaker 2: this book focuses on.
Speaker 1: So why not, Yeah, Okay, I have a couple of
Speaker 1: tash In books, but there were gifts. Tell me a
Speaker 1: little bit more in my addings, a little bit more
Speaker 1: about tashi and how the production, how the deal, how
Speaker 1: many they print.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a limited edition. I think it's fifteen hundred copies,
Speaker 2: and you can buy it with the print or without
Speaker 2: the print, and they're really considered collector's items that hopefully
Speaker 2: increase in value for the buyer. But the real thing
Speaker 2: is does when books are like sacred objects to you
Speaker 2: to create one that's really, you know, kind of like
Speaker 2: a work of art and goes very deep and is
Speaker 2: printed with the best printers in the world, you know,
Speaker 2: that's that's that's a real gift for a photographer. So
Speaker 2: tash In books are what we call trade books, which
Speaker 2: is what I mentioned on music in the eighties. I
Speaker 2: think the retail price of music in the eighties is
Speaker 2: I don't know, seventy dollars or something. I'm not familiar exactly,
Speaker 2: but the tashi In book is usually, you know, like
Speaker 2: fifteen hundred or two thousand dollars, So you have good
Speaker 2: friends who gave you books.
Speaker 1: Are books lucrative for you?
Speaker 2: I don't do them to make money. With all the
Speaker 2: time that I put into making the book, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about the fans who I feel deserve deserve the best
Speaker 2: that I, or any photographer who's worked with an artist
Speaker 2: that they love can give them. My time could be
Speaker 2: spent making money much quicker without as much struggle. But
Speaker 2: the fact is I also end up with something that
Speaker 2: I consider to be a beautiful compilation of my work,
Speaker 2: and that's generally how most photographers are. The publishers know
Speaker 2: full well that we all want books. Artists, whether you're
Speaker 2: a photographer or whether you're Eye Way Way, whoever you are,
Speaker 2: books books add to your cachet, your ego as an
Speaker 2: artist wants to see your work in a book form.
Speaker 2: So the motivations aren't financial ones. They are for the publishers.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, since we've talked about your new books, how
Speaker 1: did you meet Springsteen?
Speaker 2: I met him in nineteen seventy two when Rolling Stone
Speaker 2: assigned me to photograph him for I think the name
Speaker 2: of the article was sign Up a Genius Month or
Speaker 2: something like that, something about signing up a genius yeah.
Speaker 1: And you had a romance with him. Was the romance
Speaker 1: immediate or was that years down the line?
Speaker 2: It was years down the line.
Speaker 1: So how did it ultimately turn into a romance?
Speaker 2: I guess, like anything else, timing and having an appreciation
Speaker 2: of the other person's humor, their work, and being ready
Speaker 2: or wanting to be in a relationship like anybody else.
Speaker 1: So, since you were there from seventy two, the first
Speaker 1: album came out, Greetings from Asbury Park, The big breakthrough
Speaker 1: is in seventy five. Did you anticipate Bruce would become
Speaker 1: as big as he did?
Speaker 2: Oh? I always thought that Bruce, particularly because of the
Speaker 2: live performances, was different than anybody else. And I would
Speaker 2: have hoped that with his talent and his hard work
Speaker 2: and his great desire to really be be it an
Speaker 2: important songwriter, a lyricist, that you know, that he would
Speaker 2: gain that because there's plenty of artists who have become
Speaker 2: quite big that don't necessarily have you know, all of
Speaker 2: those talents.
Speaker 1: Okay, My favorite swing seen albums are the second Wildie, Innocent,
Speaker 1: and Darkness. You know there have been all these documentaries.
Speaker 1: There was one about Darkness. Why did you focus on
Speaker 1: darkness in the book.
Speaker 2: Because I felt that that was a really important time
Speaker 2: in Bruce's life, in the life of the East Street Band,
Speaker 2: and it was a seminal moment where, you know, where
Speaker 2: I watched that Bruce could play in Middle America to
Speaker 2: a hall that maybe held three hundred and if he
Speaker 2: was lucky, there were thirty people in the audience. But
Speaker 2: he still did a three or four were our show
Speaker 2: and gave its all, and so did the band. Bruce
Speaker 2: didn't just become who he is on Bruce alone. There's
Speaker 2: the energy of those members who who supported him in
Speaker 2: his real search and struggle to be the best that
Speaker 2: he could be. So my experience during the Darkness on
Speaker 2: the Edge of Town made me want to show Bruce's
Speaker 2: relationship with the band. You know, most books on Bruce
Speaker 2: photo books focused just on Bruce, and I understand that,
Speaker 2: but you know, I really feel that there was you know,
Speaker 2: there was it's called Bruce Spreingstein and the Eastreet Band.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not just Bruce Springsteen. And I think
Speaker 2: that's also why Bruce wanted me to do the book.
Speaker 2: I think that he wanted to have a record of
Speaker 2: that time.
Speaker 1: Okay, the book about the eighties you were a rock
Speaker 1: fan from a very young age, so you talked about
Speaker 1: the bad heir of the eighties. With this amount of distance,
Speaker 1: how do you feel about the music in the eighties.
Speaker 2: Oh, I, you know, I thought I kind of made
Speaker 2: it clear that when doing the book and realizing all
Speaker 2: the different genres, you know, and I decided to do
Speaker 2: it alphabetically. So you see Banana Rama next to Barry Manilone.
Speaker 2: I mean, there were just I myself had a hit
Speaker 2: in the eighties, at least in the UK as the
Speaker 2: recording artist Will Powers, so you know, and that was
Speaker 2: electronic music for the most part. So you know, it's
Speaker 2: it's that there were there was ska music that was
Speaker 2: coming up, and then reggae really sort of exploded in
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty when unfortunately, you know, Bob Marley made it
Speaker 2: clear to the world that he had brain cancer and
Speaker 2: not a long time to live. There were a lot
Speaker 2: of artists, including you know, the Police, who got a
Speaker 2: certain amount of radio airplay and other things which I
Speaker 2: don't know, you know, before before that, reggae was popular
Speaker 2: amongst a certain group of people, but it didn't have
Speaker 2: mass appeal. I'm talking about mass appeal like the way
Speaker 2: Madonna had it and Michael Jackson. So you're talking pop
Speaker 2: music and then soul music also. So what other decade
Speaker 2: had so many different kinds of popular forms of music.
Speaker 2: I can't think of another.
Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to the seventies. How did you
Speaker 1: get involved with Grand Funk Railroad.
Speaker 2: I was directing a television show called in Concert for ABC,
Speaker 2: and Joshua White was the main director. And I had
Speaker 2: told him because ABC was going to do their first special.
Speaker 2: Normally we just did concerts, but they were going to
Speaker 2: do with a number of artists, and so this was
Speaker 2: going to be the first time that the whole show
Speaker 2: was dedicated to one act. And I said that I
Speaker 2: wasn't that interested anymore in directing just concerts. I wanted
Speaker 2: to do things, make films that were more documentary. And
Speaker 2: so Grand Funk Railroad had just released an album called Phoenix,
Speaker 2: and so I asked josh to speak with ABC about
Speaker 2: me doing a portion of the show at Phoenix House
Speaker 2: with Grand Funk Railroad, and they approved that, and I
Speaker 2: met Andy Cavalieri, who had just started managing them because
Speaker 2: they had left their manager, Terry Knight. So I have
Speaker 2: had a certain amount of experience in marketing and publicity.
Speaker 2: In sixty nine, I did that at Elektra Records, and
Speaker 2: I made films for them, and I made radio spots,
Speaker 2: and you know, I understood from the record label aspect
Speaker 2: what needed to be on to sell a record. And
Speaker 2: so Andy was really handsome, and I was tired of ABC,
Speaker 2: and I'd saved up enough money that I said to
Speaker 2: Andy that I had this idea for Grand Funk, and
Speaker 2: if he could get them to do everything that I say,
Speaker 2: that they'd have a number one hit record in all
Speaker 2: the trains three trades that were at the time, Record World,
Speaker 2: cash Box, and Billboard, and they'd never had a hit single.
Speaker 2: So and I was willing to do it for nothing
Speaker 2: except when when I said they would get a number
Speaker 2: one hit, I wanted to be the co manager and
Speaker 2: Andy had really no experience in marketing or anything outside
Speaker 2: of really setting up tours. So I also needed Andy
Speaker 2: because having worked in the music industry even in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty nine, I was very clear that in order to
Speaker 2: get things done, being female was not going to be
Speaker 2: as strong as having a guy go in there and
Speaker 2: get the budgets and what's needed to make things happen.
Speaker 2: So I was very fortunate to that Grand Funk with
Speaker 2: Phoenix had failed so badly that they were open to
Speaker 2: everything that I wanted to do. And the first thing
Speaker 2: I wanted to do was have them write a song
Speaker 2: called We're an American band.
Speaker 1: Let's slow down the story for a second. You get
Speaker 1: involved with Grand Funk, not only are they on the
Speaker 1: downside of their career, this is a band that was
Speaker 1: hated by critics. It was a meat potatoes band from
Speaker 1: day one. You're someone who worked at Electra Records Grand
Speaker 1: Funk Railroad. Did you say, well, this is a way
Speaker 1: for me to get in. Were you turned off by
Speaker 1: the kind of music? What do you think?
Speaker 2: If anything, I didn't really think much about their music.
Speaker 2: What I thought was that they were the kind of
Speaker 2: band that basically blue collar workers and a certain economic
Speaker 2: strata of people would save up their money to come
Speaker 2: hear them play. And I knew that strata. I'm from
Speaker 2: Michigan like they are. They're from Flint, and I'm from
Speaker 2: inner city Detroit, so I felt like I knew who
Speaker 2: their audience was. And I felt that Mark Farner was
Speaker 2: a really good guitar player with an amazing voice. But
Speaker 2: I was not, and there were songs that I liked,
Speaker 2: but that isn't what kind of motivated me to really
Speaker 2: dedicate my life to try to making them number one.
Speaker 2: It was that Andy was so handsome and I was
Speaker 2: in love with him and wanting to be around him
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 1: Okay, the only Cavalier I know is Felix from the Rascals,
Speaker 1: Now I know, now, I never heard of this guy.
Speaker 1: Who was This guy?
Speaker 2: Andy had been their tour manager and he was and
Speaker 2: he also managed me when I was will Powers, I
Speaker 2: needed to have a manager, but unfortunately Andy uh Andy
Speaker 2: passed away during the recording of my album, and I
Speaker 2: worked with Andy and Grand Funk for a number of
Speaker 2: years and uh over those years, as they became very successful,
Speaker 2: Don Brewer really thought he knew better than me and
Speaker 2: wanted to do things, wanted the producer that he wanted,
Speaker 2: and I just I couldn't go along with it, so
Speaker 2: I walked away.
Speaker 1: Let's go back. So you're saying it was one hundred
Speaker 1: percent your idea to write a song we're an American band.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. The idea behind it was that I would
Speaker 2: create a certain kind of stage show. I would make
Speaker 2: videos that films actually that we could send out to
Speaker 2: army bases across the world, that if they just wrote
Speaker 2: a song, a simple song, we're an American band. At
Speaker 2: that time, all the English bands were taking over, and
Speaker 2: I thought that gives them. They wrote the Mark actually
Speaker 2: wrote the song, not Donnie. Donnie added to it, but Mark,
Speaker 2: being generous, gave him the publishing for it. But it's
Speaker 2: really Mark Farman. And it was also my idea not
Speaker 2: only were an American band, but because they were hated,
Speaker 2: as you pointed out so much by the press and
Speaker 2: disrespected and nobody really wanted to hear or talk about Grandpak.
Speaker 2: They were sick of the Terry Knight lawsuit. So I
Speaker 2: knew that Todd Rungdren, who was a friend of mine,
Speaker 2: needed money because this new TV studio that he had
Speaker 2: built was not making any money. And I knew that
Speaker 2: the press at that time thought, basically Todd is God.
Speaker 2: He was an artist that everyone respected and had integrity.
Speaker 2: So I knew that press wise, you know that they
Speaker 2: would respond going to Todd Rundgren and grand Funk. You
Speaker 2: know that makes no sense. We have to take a
Speaker 2: look at this. So it was really it wasn't that
Speaker 2: brilliant it just came out of me. You know, it
Speaker 2: seemed common sense.
Speaker 1: Well, I actually would say it was brilliant because it
Speaker 1: was also a great track, but a little bit slower.
Speaker 1: You come up with the idea.
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't write the track.
Speaker 1: And I know, but I'm going there. You come up
Speaker 1: with the idea, how is it presented to the band,
Speaker 1: what is their reaction? And how long until they write
Speaker 1: the song?
Speaker 2: Oh, the song was done like right away, and I
Speaker 2: didn't go to the band. Andy made it very clear
Speaker 2: to me that it would be much better if everything
Speaker 2: went through him the band. There was a lot of
Speaker 2: especially with Donnie. People don't want to listen to a
Speaker 2: quote unquote girl. You know, their macho, and so Andy would.
Speaker 2: Andy had never and neither had the band ever heard it.
Speaker 2: Even Grant Todd Runggren, they didn't know anything. But Andy
Speaker 2: would go and present it to them and convince them
Speaker 2: that they should do it. And that was fine with me.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to do the work. I didn't care about,
Speaker 2: you know, anything else. I didn't care if Andy called
Speaker 2: me a publicist or the marketer or whatever they wanted
Speaker 2: to do. I just wanted to manifest my ideas. I
Speaker 2: was driven to do that, and I had a whole
Speaker 2: plan in place where there was a lighting guy named
Speaker 2: Jack Calmys, who I designed like an American flag backdrop.
Speaker 2: You know. I had this whole idea for what it
Speaker 2: would be and what the show would be and how
Speaker 2: when people buy their tickets after you know, a hard
Speaker 2: week at work. This was going to be a party.
Speaker 2: You know, this was a celebration of America and a party.
Speaker 2: You know. I'm I'm from the city that, like you know,
Speaker 2: is is known for cars much less for soul music,
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, it's a It's America. So I
Speaker 2: guess that's how it happened. But I also felt it
Speaker 2: happened because I thought there were just so many English
Speaker 2: bands getting attention and everyone wanted to wear velvet jackets
Speaker 2: and you know, be like the English rockers. So it
Speaker 2: was a simple idea. But then when when they made
Speaker 2: a demo of the song and I listened to it
Speaker 2: and I was like, that's it, you know, Connie from
Speaker 2: Little Rock, the whole deal I went perfect. So I
Speaker 2: could just run with all the marketing things, you know,
Speaker 2: getting taking pictures and I wasn't really a photographer. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm still I think I'm a conceptualist. I don't think
Speaker 2: I'm a photographer. But I set up things because I
Speaker 2: needed to get them major press where I would have
Speaker 2: Mark give blood at the Red Cross and I would
Speaker 2: take pictures of it, you know, because I really felt
Speaker 2: that if you could hand the press stories that had
Speaker 2: some angle and need on it and good pictures, they'd
Speaker 2: run it. And they did so that and I think,
Speaker 2: you know, we did a stage show that for its
Speaker 2: time was hadn't really been done before. I went to
Speaker 2: the Library of Congress in DC and I got all
Speaker 2: the stock footage of a train coming at you. So
Speaker 2: how the show opened as the audience came in was
Speaker 2: this train. I had a film a screen come down.
Speaker 2: We carried movie projectors with us on tour, and you know,
Speaker 2: I would we'd project this train coming right at the
Speaker 2: audience and then bam they hit the stage. So those
Speaker 2: were you know, I was so excited seeing all my
Speaker 2: ideas manifested that that was actually the best reward. And
Speaker 2: you know, thank god they did have number one in
Speaker 2: all three traits. Okay, Todd, Right, I look back now
Speaker 2: and I think I had a.
Speaker 1: Lot of I think that's but we'll get to that
Speaker 1: that's your whole career. I discussed it with Todd. Todd
Speaker 1: told me that because Tod is, you know, uber talented,
Speaker 1: he can write the songs, play them record. He said,
Speaker 1: the song was completely done when it came to him,
Speaker 1: all record it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what I told him. Because Todd didn't
Speaker 2: want to do it and he needed money, and I
Speaker 2: was the one who hired him, and I had to
Speaker 2: convince him because we both lived up We had a
Speaker 2: place up in Woodstock, and Todd it gets real cold
Speaker 2: in the winter. So I said, look, you'll go to
Speaker 2: Criteria in Miami. It's a great studio. Ten days, it's warm.
Speaker 2: You're going to get one hundred thousand dollars for ten days.
Speaker 2: And I knew that his sound wouldn't interfear. I really
Speaker 2: felt that, even though he was very different than the
Speaker 2: guys in Grandfa because a lot of artists who work
Speaker 2: with Todd have problems with Todd because he's very He's
Speaker 2: doing it Todd's way, but Todd was he was going
Speaker 2: to do the best he could do. But he was
Speaker 2: really there as a great engineer. But he also mixes
Speaker 2: amazing and he's you know, I just intuitively felt it
Speaker 2: was right for both grand Funk and for Todd.
Speaker 1: How did you meet Todd?
Speaker 2: When I came to One of the things that I do,
Speaker 2: as I mentioned, I was will powers Is. I wrote
Speaker 2: songs and sang and I went to do some work
Speaker 2: when they were just building out the studio at Secret Sound,
Speaker 2: and Todd was under the board. He was basically building
Speaker 2: the board when I came in and we met and
Speaker 2: we became really good friends.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're from Michigan. How do you get from Michigan
Speaker 1: to New York.
Speaker 2: By playing oh a being? You know you? I had
Speaker 2: gone onto La for a minute, and I didn't feel
Speaker 2: that was very mean. And the second I well, first
Speaker 2: of all, I had already had experiences in New York.
Speaker 2: When I was in college. I had a band called
Speaker 2: The Walking Wounded, and we used to go to New
Speaker 2: York to play or to open for certain people a cafe,
Speaker 2: wa and other places. And my sister is a painter
Speaker 2: and by night she was a waitress at Maxis Kansas City,
Speaker 2: so you know, I and she was also John Cale's
Speaker 2: girlfriend who was in the Velvet Underground, So you know,
Speaker 2: I felt really comfortable in New York. It was far
Speaker 2: more my cup of tea. I like to work and
Speaker 2: make things, and I like having friends who are artists,
Speaker 2: so you know, it definitely felt It's always felt like home.
Speaker 1: So how does a nice Jewish girl end up in
Speaker 1: Nashville today?
Speaker 2: By mistake? I asked myself that quite often, and I
Speaker 2: leave here probably at least once a month for a
Speaker 2: week to go to New York, if not more. I'm
Speaker 2: still trying to get used to the South. I have
Speaker 2: a thing that I believe in called the pattern interrupt
Speaker 2: and that's where you put yourself in positions that are
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable to you, that don't feel right to you,
Speaker 2: and that should shake up your creativity. And so the
Speaker 2: move to Nashville was in part because of that, and
Speaker 2: also moving to Nashville provided me the oppert tunity to
Speaker 2: have the kind of workspace that I've always wanted. I
Speaker 2: need at least like eight thousand square feet, so you know,
Speaker 2: that's that's like i'd be. I'd be working for the
Speaker 2: bank if I was in New York, you know, and
Speaker 2: in LA with taxes, that wasn't really feasible. Although as
Speaker 2: you get older the weather seems to be nice, but
Speaker 2: it did you know, I am scared by fires and earthquakes.
Speaker 2: So you know, so I'm trying this. We'll see.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how many years have you been in Nashville? Uh?
Speaker 2: Five? But I would say the first two years we
Speaker 2: weren't here that much. Who we my husband denied? Okay, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: Your husband all? I mean, I don't know anything about
Speaker 1: the husband. Long you've been married.
Speaker 2: Twenty three or four years?
Speaker 1: And what is he?
Speaker 2: Not quite what is February nineteen ninety nine?
Speaker 1: And what does he do all day?
Speaker 2: He says, And he plays his guitar, he reads books,
Speaker 2: he sculpts in the basement where his woodwork room is.
Speaker 2: He only gets a little spot in the workspace. I
Speaker 2: get all the big stuff. And he was an architect,
Speaker 2: so he designed our house. And you know, it's really
Speaker 2: made for the way that we want to live. And
Speaker 2: that's a real pleasure.
Speaker 1: You're talking about the eight thousand square feet. Are the
Speaker 1: eight thousand square feet in your house? Or is that
Speaker 1: a separate location all in my house? How much property
Speaker 1: do you have?
Speaker 2: Two acres?
Speaker 1: So the workspace is that part of the house or
Speaker 1: a separate building?
Speaker 2: No? That what we did here because I wanted it
Speaker 2: to be all in one work live, so most of it,
Speaker 2: you know, we live in maybe like fifteen hundred square
Speaker 2: feet of the eight thousand square feet.
Speaker 1: And what is in the rest of the space, the
Speaker 1: other sixty five hundred square feet.
Speaker 2: You got to come and visit. I have a print
Speaker 2: studio where I make large scale prints. I have a
Speaker 2: paint studio as I'm a painter. I have a photo studio.
Speaker 2: I have a gallery. It's a private gallery. I used
Speaker 2: to have an actual brick and mortar gallery in Colorado,
Speaker 2: so in the house. We made a private gallery online.
Speaker 2: It's called rock and Roll Photo Gallery dot Com. And
Speaker 2: it's not just my work, it's the world of uh,
Speaker 2: A lot of different photographers who who I personally think,
Speaker 2: you know, that collecting their work is a value. We had.
Speaker 2: We have Terry O'Neill, you know, we had Terry before
Speaker 2: he passed, Gary Mankowitz, A lot of individuals who have
Speaker 2: made uh great images. Uh. So it's not just about
Speaker 2: you know, Lynn Goldsmith. But we made it private because
Speaker 2: I just really want to have people come who truly
Speaker 2: want to collect.
Speaker 1: So how does a rock and roller meet an architect? Oh?
Speaker 2: He my husband designed and built about five buildings at
Speaker 2: least homes recording studio uh Art building a home in
Speaker 2: Seattle for the recording artist Steve Miller. And Steve was
Speaker 2: Steve is a really is a close friend of mine.
Speaker 2: He and his wife at the time, and I would
Speaker 2: They lived in sun Valence, and so I would go
Speaker 2: to visit Steve and Kim for holidays and whatever, and
Speaker 2: that's how I met Sid.
Speaker 1: Okay, and how did you ultimately decide to get married
Speaker 1: around age fifty, you know, as opposed to the previous
Speaker 1: period of eligibility of thirty years.
Speaker 2: Oh, I knew that I didn't want to get married
Speaker 2: until I was fifty. I really work was always number
Speaker 2: one for me. And most men who want to get
Speaker 2: married want to have children, and they want you to
Speaker 2: be there for them. And that's wonderful, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: all for it. But I wanted to really make my
Speaker 2: focus on my work. And I didn't think that being
Speaker 2: a mother and a wife that I could be a
Speaker 2: good one if I had that drive that I had
Speaker 2: work wise, so I made a choice.
Speaker 1: And did you ever have the urge to have children?
Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, but then I would think about, you know,
Speaker 2: the reality of being a responsible, good parent, and I
Speaker 2: don't want to mess up another human being, you know,
Speaker 2: I wanted, I would like to, and I always sort
Speaker 2: of thought that the world was not going to be
Speaker 2: a great place for what would be my grandchildren or
Speaker 2: great grandchildren. I've always felt that we're headed for a
Speaker 2: very hard time. And I'm very grateful that I lived
Speaker 2: when I did and I lived the way that I did.
Speaker 2: But I made up my mind long ago that I
Speaker 2: would get married when I was fifty, and that's what
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're someone who's had quite a career, but you
Speaker 1: came of age during the mis era, Women's liberation. The
Speaker 1: Ultimately we have Cheryl Samberg telling you to lean in
Speaker 1: and then other people saying you can have it all.
Speaker 1: What's your take on all that?
Speaker 2: Well, maybe some people can. You know, I can't really
Speaker 2: answer for everyone. I just know what I'm capable of
Speaker 2: or feel comfortable with, and I really didn't think that
Speaker 2: I could be I thought I had to make a
Speaker 2: choice be a good mother or you know, do my work,
Speaker 2: and that I couldn't do both. There are people who
Speaker 2: I'm sure think they can and they can have it all,
Speaker 2: and maybe they can, but that I knew, very I
Speaker 2: knew that wasn't me.
Speaker 1: Does your sister have children? No, so both you and
Speaker 1: your sister don't have children. You think that has anything
Speaker 1: to do with your upbringing?
Speaker 2: Not really. My mother was a single working mother, but
Speaker 2: she did marry when I was fourteen fifteen. My sister
Speaker 2: wanted to have kids, and there was a period of
Speaker 2: time where we even more so her. We went over
Speaker 2: to bet and adopt, did foster parented some children, and
Speaker 2: that just showed me, and I think has showed her
Speaker 2: quite clearly that you know, parenting isn't for everybody. We tried.
Speaker 1: Okay, in your book, you say your sister is older,
Speaker 1: you say she is the pretty one, et cetera. Now,
Speaker 1: when I moved to Los Angeles, my sister was going
Speaker 1: to graduate school here. It's so I could stay with
Speaker 1: her a little bit. To what degree having an older
Speaker 1: sister or an entree help you to get established?
Speaker 2: Oh? I think it helped me a lot. My sister
Speaker 2: she's very different than me, but you know, she was
Speaker 2: friends with people like I mean, that's how I met
Speaker 2: Carol King James Taylor. That was when she lived in
Speaker 2: LA She designed clothes for a period of time for
Speaker 2: a lot of bands, just her artistic sensibilities have always
Speaker 2: been really influential in my life.
Speaker 1: So what is about her that she ends up being
Speaker 1: in all these spots. She must have something, some magic,
Speaker 1: some blitz with something.
Speaker 2: Well, she was really she was talented, she was pretty,
Speaker 2: she was she was beneficial in two musical groups in
Speaker 2: how she dressed them. So, you know, it was a
Speaker 2: smaller world then, and I just think that people who
Speaker 2: people who are attractive have an easier time than being
Speaker 2: brought into the inner circle, so to speak, then those
Speaker 2: who aren't. It's just a fact of life. You know.
Speaker 2: We all have our pluses and minuses. And so there
Speaker 2: are people who let's say, are overweight or of a
Speaker 2: body type that isn't considered Well today it's different, but
Speaker 2: let's say back then, but then they might have been
Speaker 2: really funny and people wanted them around because they're really funny,
Speaker 2: or they're really smart and they're well read and they
Speaker 2: inspire you because of it. So, you know, my sister
Speaker 2: and I were always very much independent artists, and I
Speaker 2: think that inspired some people to want to hang with
Speaker 2: us and some people not. You know, I can really
Speaker 2: only answer, you know for me.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're doing a zoom but this is not visible
Speaker 1: to my audience, but there are pictures online and you
Speaker 1: let your hair go white. How big a decision was that, Well,
Speaker 1: it's a bit.
Speaker 2: It continues to be a decision. I can clearly tell
Speaker 2: when I'm not as accepted as I might be. If
Speaker 2: I had my long, dark hair. During COVID, my hair
Speaker 2: started coming in white, and I thought, whoa, I have
Speaker 2: white hair. I don't have gray hair. I've got like
Speaker 2: white hair. I thought that'd be fun to see, so
Speaker 2: I let it grow out, like why diet during COVID?
Speaker 2: And then I decided that like, this is who I am,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to keep dyeing my hair or
Speaker 2: trying to be young. And if in moments I do,
Speaker 2: I can put on a wig. So I wear wigs
Speaker 2: and if I feel that way, and if I don't,
Speaker 2: I have my white hair. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do people treat someone differently if they have white.
Speaker 2: Hair, Well, I guess it depends on your age. When
Speaker 2: Gaga had white hair, they didn't. They still treated her
Speaker 2: as Gaga. I think that you know, when you're my age,
Speaker 2: which I'm seventy five, and you have white hair, they're
Speaker 2: going to experience you differently. I mean I didn't really
Speaker 2: know that people thought I was maybe fifty when I
Speaker 2: was seventy because I had dark hair, you know, you
Speaker 2: were a hat And yeah they do, but I don't
Speaker 2: really care.
Speaker 1: And what about other ways to keep young? Plastic surgery, liposuction,
Speaker 1: et cetera. Are those things you have a take on.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe if I didn't have a loving husband, you know,
Speaker 2: and I thought I might be more attractive, maybe that
Speaker 2: would influence me. But I really feel like I want
Speaker 2: to see myself age. I don't really want to have
Speaker 2: one of those faces with lips that you know have
Speaker 2: been injected number of times or you know, I'm I'm
Speaker 2: I just want to be I'm pretty grateful, you know,
Speaker 2: for what I have, and I don't really care anymore.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I do. I mean I say I don't really care,
Speaker 2: but you know, sometimes I do. I feel like, Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm not being invited or oh I'm not included because
Speaker 2: they think I'm old.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how about the reverse? You know, this is more
Speaker 1: psychological than appearance. Are you ever with younger people and say, well,
Speaker 1: maybe I don't belong here anymore?
Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, I'm with older people and I say maybe
Speaker 2: I don't belong here anymore. I I just am not
Speaker 2: interested for the most part in the things that seem
Speaker 2: to motivate, but I am interested in I have younger friends,
Speaker 2: you know, some that are in their thirties, some in
Speaker 2: their forties, some in their fifties, and generally they you know,
Speaker 2: they I guess they think that I offer them some
Speaker 2: kind of knowledge from the life that I've lived, so
Speaker 2: they want they want to be friends with me. And
Speaker 2: you know, but that word friend can take a kind
Speaker 2: of wide definition or a very narrow one. You know,
Speaker 2: there are people for me that you know, I've known
Speaker 2: for fifty years or more and I've had a number
Speaker 2: of experiences with them over our lifetimes, and that's really
Speaker 2: feels very much like a bonded friend, and you can't
Speaker 2: really have that with a new friend. So it's more
Speaker 2: about the length of time that you've known someone, you know,
Speaker 2: the experiences that you had with them. I have a
Speaker 2: friend Nancy, who we were partners at Life magazine. She
Speaker 2: was the writer, I was the photographer, and we would,
Speaker 2: you know, do stories together, and the experiences that we
Speaker 2: had on the road with Tony Robbins or when we
Speaker 2: did Michael Jackson, I mean, part of the reason I
Speaker 2: so value my relationship with Nancy is because only she,
Speaker 2: She's the only one on the planet, you know, other
Speaker 2: than me, that I can really share that experience with,
Speaker 2: you know, because we were there together. So, you know, friends,
Speaker 2: I definitely need them, and I like to have some
Speaker 2: new friends, but having my old friends is what really
Speaker 2: makes me feel connected.
Speaker 1: Let's say, because you live in Nashville, which is a
Speaker 1: music city, Let's say, okay I called you up, or
Speaker 1: no one calls I emailed. Let's go to Bridgestone Arena
Speaker 1: to see a relatively new act, or go to a
Speaker 1: club to see a holy new act. What would you say,
Speaker 1: go to.
Speaker 2: A club for a holy new act. I got asked
Speaker 2: the other night go to a club with a holy
Speaker 2: new act. I got asked the other night to go
Speaker 2: to bridge Stone Arena by a friend of mine who's
Speaker 2: probably about forty five maybe at most will and he's
Speaker 2: a Fish fan. And he said, I have a ticket,
Speaker 2: you know, will you come with me to bridge Stone
Speaker 2: Arena Sea Fish. I said, absolutely not. I'd rather go
Speaker 2: see Joe Blow at some place you know, like Grimey's
Speaker 2: or whatever that holds twenty people. That to me is fun.
Speaker 1: Well, let me change a little bit. How hard is
Speaker 1: it to get you out of the house to do
Speaker 1: these things where you made your name.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's very funny. That's a really good question. It's
Speaker 2: real hard to get me out of the house. It's
Speaker 2: not if we're well in New York for me to
Speaker 2: do other things, not to like go to Madison Square
Speaker 2: Garden or you know, things like that. But I get
Speaker 2: out of the house a lot there. But here, no,
Speaker 2: I like to do my work all day and then
Speaker 2: either find some great documentary or some TV show to
Speaker 2: binge you know morning news. Uh, that to me is
Speaker 2: heavenly going out and going I think here it's about
Speaker 2: the driving and the parking, because I do go out
Speaker 2: in Colorado and in uh in New York.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me drill down a little bit further. To
Speaker 1: what degree would you not want to go because you said,
Speaker 1: been there, done that?
Speaker 2: Oh a lot, really a lot. And now what's interesting
Speaker 2: for me is it's happening in in photographing people who
Speaker 2: I I don't want to do more retouching work I
Speaker 2: don't want to do. I don't want to do it.
Speaker 2: You know. I got a call from Alice Cooper's people
Speaker 2: because Alice was here in Nashville recently. This is before
Speaker 2: this album that just came out came out, and they
Speaker 2: wanted me to do a variety of things the band here, this, there,
Speaker 2: like Nah, been there, done that. Not interested. So in
Speaker 2: some way it feels odd to me that I just
Speaker 2: don't have that drive anymore, you know. But if it
Speaker 2: was about photographing someone who's of who I want to meet,
Speaker 2: that's of interest and they don't have to be in music,
Speaker 2: I'm more likely to want to do it. But for
Speaker 2: the most part, everything in celebrity portraiture in the music
Speaker 2: world also requires a lot of time spent in front
Speaker 2: of the computer making people look like what they want
Speaker 2: other people to think they look like. And it just
Speaker 2: doesn't interest me at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, and then you mentioned Colorado. How long were
Speaker 1: you living in Aspen twenty years?
Speaker 2: Well, I kept New York.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's just talk Colorado. How did you end up
Speaker 1: in Aspen?
Speaker 2: Well, I lived. I had a house in New York
Speaker 2: and LA and a house up in Woodstock. And when
Speaker 2: I met my husband, which you asked about, which was
Speaker 2: you know, over twenty years ago. He really is a
Speaker 2: mountain guy. He lived in Sun Valley for twenty something years,
Speaker 2: and I had done I had worked about a month
Speaker 2: a year for National Geographic, and I had friends photographer
Speaker 2: friends who were staffed Geographic that all of them had
Speaker 2: moved to Aspen and lived there. And so when we
Speaker 2: got married, we went and looked at Aspen because I
Speaker 2: knew that my husband couldn't really live in New York
Speaker 2: full time. He's the as most I think, good couples,
Speaker 2: your opposites. You know. I love the city. He like,
Speaker 2: he wants to see trees, long distance views, and I say,
Speaker 2: it's not about looking out, it's about looking within. And
Speaker 2: so I thought, well, let's go take a look there.
Speaker 2: We're going to do a mountain town. And they have
Speaker 2: a place called Anderson Ranch, which is an arts center
Speaker 2: and everyone comes through there. I mean they really They're
Speaker 2: like a little mini New York. So I thought, uh,
Speaker 2: And it was much easier to get in and out
Speaker 2: of than Sun Valley. So I thought it would be
Speaker 2: good for me, time for a pattern interrupt sell La,
Speaker 2: stop doing celebrity as much celebrity stuff, and start investigating
Speaker 2: other things with your art. And that was why the
Speaker 2: move to Colorado. Are you a skier, Yeah, I skied, well,
Speaker 2: I became a skier. Yeah, I skied every morning. It
Speaker 2: was great.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So you talk about these multiple houses. Was your
Speaker 1: career that lucrative?
Speaker 2: Well, I always I'm a buyer, not a renter. It's
Speaker 2: the way that I am. And in those days, you know,
Speaker 2: things didn't cost what they do now. I don't understand
Speaker 2: how young people can do it now, you know. And
Speaker 2: I was fortunate because I might buy some real estate
Speaker 2: and sell it, and I made more money in the
Speaker 2: real estate then I did, let's say, for a couple
Speaker 2: of years of work. So it's all always panned out
Speaker 2: for me somehow.
Speaker 1: And what properties do you and your husband own now?
Speaker 2: We have a condo in Aspen, the house in Nashville,
Speaker 2: and a condo in New York City.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the Walking Wounded. Why did
Speaker 1: you start a band to begin with? Was that a
Speaker 1: long time desire? Did you practice guitar in your bedroom?
Speaker 1: How did that come about?
Speaker 2: Well? I always sang and wrote songs. I sang in
Speaker 2: coffee houses in Florida. When we moved there, I sang
Speaker 2: in Freddie Neil's coffee house. And I think I might
Speaker 2: have thought that I would be a singer, and when
Speaker 2: I went to University of Michigan, there was a band
Speaker 2: starting up, the Walking Wound, and somehow the manager had
Speaker 2: heard I guess of that band that I could sing,
Speaker 2: so they asked me to join the band, and I
Speaker 2: played bass and sang, and unfortunately, on one of our
Speaker 2: trips to New York, I met a band called Children
Speaker 2: of Paradise and they then came to ann Arbor and
Speaker 2: played and we after the show, we all went out
Speaker 2: in my car to look for flying saucers that seemed
Speaker 2: to have been spotted quite frequently. Believe it or not.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here now, are you the touchy feely kind
Speaker 1: of person? Were you going to tell me? You know
Speaker 1: there are flying saucers and you know, don't use it.
Speaker 2: University of Michigan and we were near Ipsilante, and at
Speaker 2: the time there were not that we believed in it.
Speaker 2: We went to see it. There were sightings quite often
Speaker 2: of UFOs, you know, it was in the ann Arbor
Speaker 2: News or whatever, so I wasn't judging it. I just thought, hey,
Speaker 2: let's go, let's go see if they're really there. And
Speaker 2: this band I got pulled over because I was driving
Speaker 2: very slowly because I kept looking up to see if
Speaker 2: there were any flying saucers. It was my car and
Speaker 2: this band Children of Paradise already and Happy Trom they
Speaker 2: stuck there. I got pulled over by the cops because
Speaker 2: I was driving so slow and they stuck. I didn't
Speaker 2: know they had drugs and they stuck them under my seat.
Speaker 2: They were in the back seat. And so when I
Speaker 2: got pulled over and the police found the drugs and
Speaker 2: it's my car, I was rested and my stepfather said.
Speaker 1: That it is a little bit slower you're driving. You're
Speaker 1: pulled over, which is always a horrifying experience at whatever
Speaker 1: age when they say we found drugs and it's you.
Speaker 1: How did you react?
Speaker 2: Oh? I got down on my hands and knees and
Speaker 2: I said, you can't do this. I'm Jewish, I come
Speaker 2: from a good family. You can't. I'm I go to
Speaker 2: ann Arbor, you know. And they didn't care, and they
Speaker 2: took all of us to jail, but they let the
Speaker 2: other band go because they were from New York. So
Speaker 2: I got stuck with a felony.
Speaker 1: Wait wait, so what was your feeling about them doing
Speaker 1: that to you?
Speaker 2: Oh? I'm scumbags. What can I say? And later I
Speaker 2: ran into Happy and already one of them died. I
Speaker 2: ran into them. They live up in Woodstock, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they know what they did to me, you know,
Speaker 2: and they left me there to hold the bag. But anyway,
Speaker 2: my stepfather said that unless I quit my band and
Speaker 2: I stopped singing and all of this stuff, that he
Speaker 2: wouldn't pay for my lawyer. So I made a deal
Speaker 2: with him, and that was why I stopped going in
Speaker 2: that direction and decided to focus on directing.
Speaker 1: Okay, a little bit slower. You know, it's a big
Speaker 1: thing for women to play the bass. Did you know
Speaker 1: how to play the bass before you joined the band?
Speaker 2: Not really. I played guitar. I had a Gibson guitar. No,
Speaker 2: but they taught me, you know, light my fire. You know,
Speaker 2: playing music is not that hard, you know, whether you
Speaker 2: play it well or not. I don't play well.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you made this deal with your father, grand stepfather,
Speaker 1: excuse me?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Do you still resent him for that?
Speaker 2: Oh? Not at all, not at all. No. Your life
Speaker 2: takes turns for various reasons, and it was why I
Speaker 2: then focused on directing. And you know, I loved making films.
Speaker 2: I loved doing what I did, and the deal was,
Speaker 2: you know that after I graduated and returned for six
Speaker 2: months to Miami Beach, that then you know, I was
Speaker 2: free to be.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning. So you're talking about Detroit.
Speaker 1: Where were you born?
Speaker 2: I was born in Detroit. You want to know the hospital?
Speaker 1: No, I want to know how long you lived there
Speaker 1: before we moved to Florida.
Speaker 2: Basically. I mean we did move once when I was
Speaker 2: nine to a different part of Florida. That's because my mother,
Speaker 2: she didn't get married. She was opening up a store
Speaker 2: that failed, so we moved back to Detroit. But my
Speaker 2: kindergarten through to tenth grade was basically Detroit, and then
Speaker 2: for tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grade it was Beach Hide.
Speaker 1: Usually that's an incredible trauma to leave all your friends
Speaker 1: behind and start over in high school.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I didn't want to go. I was not interested.
Speaker 2: And it was also traumatic in that Miami Beach and
Speaker 2: the lifestyle with my stepfather was just so different than
Speaker 2: what I had had in Detroit.
Speaker 1: In what way?
Speaker 2: Oh, in every way. My stepfather was very wealthy, and
Speaker 2: he also wanted to take a hand in my upbringing
Speaker 2: as a I don't think I ever ate vegetables, and
Speaker 2: he was very hands on, whereas my mother, because she
Speaker 2: was a working mother, pretty much left me and my
Speaker 2: sister alone and I didn't have that kind of supervision.
Speaker 2: So at first I hated it, but I now am
Speaker 2: really grateful that, you know, someone came in and made
Speaker 2: sure I used my knife and fork, and that I
Speaker 2: didn't just eat with my hands.
Speaker 1: And did your mother and stepfather were main marriad for
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. Yes, okay, so you're in
Speaker 1: Florida like when the Beatles hit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my picture of the feet of the Beatles,
Speaker 2: So tell us that story. As I said, my stepfather
Speaker 2: and I really didn't well, I didn't get along with
Speaker 2: him because I didn't enjoy having this stranger come in
Speaker 2: and suddenly there are rules like when you walk out
Speaker 2: of the room, turn your light off, or you're being
Speaker 2: fine twenty five cents, a range of things that I
Speaker 2: was rebelling against. And he wanted to be on my
Speaker 2: good side, and because he owned hotels in Miami Beach,
Speaker 2: he could. He did arrange for me to be in
Speaker 2: the lobby of the Dauville Hotel when the Beatles arrived.
Speaker 2: Only I wasn't interested in the Beatles. I didn't like
Speaker 2: the Beatles. I thought, I Want to Hold Your Hand
Speaker 2: was just a really weak song, and they weren't my
Speaker 2: cup of tea. So I told my mother I wasn't going,
Speaker 2: and she said, no, no, you're going, because if there's
Speaker 2: a choice between you and George, I'm staying with George
Speaker 2: and you're gone. So with that in mind, I went
Speaker 2: to the Doba Hotel with my camera because I did
Speaker 2: like the lobby carpets in these fancy hotels, and I
Speaker 2: liked photographing the carpets. And when the Beatles came in,
Speaker 2: I didn't even look at them, but I was looking
Speaker 2: at the carpet and I saw their feet and they
Speaker 2: were all wearing James Brown's boots. Like a little light
Speaker 2: bulb went off in my head. I thought, oh, And
Speaker 2: I took a picture of their feet on the lobby carpet.
Speaker 2: But I just walked away after that, and John grabbed
Speaker 2: my arm. John Lennon Happy Birthday, John Today's birthday. He
Speaker 2: grabbed my arm and said, d youre in all faces?
Speaker 2: And I said no, no, and walked off. And so
Speaker 2: someone from the Miami Herald was there and they asked
Speaker 2: if they could develop my pictures. They asked my father
Speaker 2: and stepfather and he said yes. And so really that
Speaker 2: was my first kind of published picture and my story
Speaker 2: in the in the newspaper about you know, the little
Speaker 2: girl who didn't like the Beatles.
Speaker 1: So but you ended up seeing the Beatles when they
Speaker 1: were there, for they were there to play the third
Speaker 1: week on Ed Sullivan.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I definitely went, and you know, I mean
Speaker 2: it was a whole I remember it as like one time,
Speaker 2: you know, like going being in the lobby, and then
Speaker 2: maybe later being because it was at the same hotel
Speaker 2: as I remember. But the memory that is clearest for
Speaker 2: me is like I couldn't have cared less about the Beatles,
Speaker 2: and yet when they came out on stage, all the
Speaker 2: girls in the audience were standing on chairs and screaming,
Speaker 2: and I found that I was also standing on a chair,
Speaker 2: screaming with tears running down my face. George George, and
Speaker 2: I it was like standing outside of myself because I thought, Lynn,
Speaker 2: what are they doing? But I was like George, George.
Speaker 2: So it's fascinating this kind of thing that spreads, especially
Speaker 2: I think amongst young girls or young adolescents who are
Speaker 2: that you know passionate?
Speaker 1: Okay, you end up going to University of Michigan. Why
Speaker 1: as opposed anywhere else?
Speaker 2: Well, I was accepted to Ragcliffe, which was Harvard because
Speaker 2: they were it was really kind of like one school.
Speaker 2: Harvard didn't take girls. And my father, my birth father,
Speaker 2: had gone to U of M and so I, for
Speaker 2: whatever reason, wanted to go and get a degree from
Speaker 2: the same school that my father went to.
Speaker 1: And did you get in state tuition or are you're
Speaker 1: living in Florida A No.
Speaker 2: No, I was an out of state student, which made
Speaker 2: it harder to get into and you had to pay
Speaker 2: out of state money.
Speaker 1: Right, So you moved to New York after college? How
Speaker 1: long after college? You moved to New York.
Speaker 2: When I graduated from college, I had to go back
Speaker 2: to Miami Beach for six months and teach high school English.
Speaker 2: So I was a substitute. Yeah, substitute teacher for six months,
Speaker 2: and then as soon as that time was up, I
Speaker 2: went to New York.
Speaker 1: And you stayed with your sister.
Speaker 2: No, I actually stayed with my friend Inky.
Speaker 1: And who is incy.
Speaker 2: Inky was my friend that I met at a bicycle
Speaker 2: shop in Coconhao Grove and Inky had moved there, so
Speaker 2: I went and stayed with Inky. At first she was
Speaker 2: on the Upper West Side, which at that time they
Speaker 2: were like dutings. Yeah, and how long do you live?
Speaker 2: My sister had moved to la by then, So.
Speaker 1: How long did you live with Inky before you got
Speaker 1: your own place?
Speaker 2: A very short time. I don't remember exactly, but you know,
Speaker 2: probably just a few months.
Speaker 1: And so you get to New York. How do you
Speaker 1: get a job?
Speaker 2: Well, I thought that I would direct films. So you
Speaker 2: start out by going to different production companies trying to
Speaker 2: get a job as a production assistant. And because you know,
Speaker 2: I was told you bring a resume and all the
Speaker 2: rest of it. And I graduated from ann Arbor in
Speaker 2: three years with two degrees Magna Cumlada. So when I
Speaker 2: would present my resume with that on it production compan
Speaker 2: and he s would say to me, well, you're not
Speaker 2: going to like run for coffee, you know, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to hire you. So I realized I was like overqualified.
Speaker 2: And during that period of time I had met, through Inky,
Speaker 2: my friend a guy named Bob Zachary who worked at
Speaker 2: Elektra Records, and he had told me that Danny Fields
Speaker 2: was leaving Electra. I knew Danny because Danny had come
Speaker 2: to ann Arbor looking for bands when I was in
Speaker 2: the walking room, and he'd gone to see the MC five, US,
Speaker 2: the SRC KSE and Iggy and the Stooges, and so
Speaker 2: I met him back then. But he was leaving and
Speaker 2: Bob told me about this position, and because I had
Speaker 2: learned that telling the truth wouldn't get you the job,
Speaker 2: I went in and told them that. Well, I had
Speaker 2: a meeting with Jack Holsman, and I told him that
Speaker 2: I had worked at CAP Records. And Jack cap who
Speaker 2: created the forty five, actually is my grandfather's cousin. When
Speaker 2: they came over from Russia. He and my grandfather we're
Speaker 2: going to go into the music business, and my grandfather
Speaker 2: decided that wasn't a good idea and he went to
Speaker 2: Michigan and started a carpet cleaning company. You really want
Speaker 2: to hear all? Yeah, So anyway, I said that I
Speaker 2: had worked for Cap Records, and I also knew that
Speaker 2: if I got in there and did a number of
Speaker 2: things really well right away, that even if Jack Holsman
Speaker 2: were to find out that I lied, he would keep me.
Speaker 2: So that's exactly what happened. I created a thing called
Speaker 2: the biodisc. Right away, I started making radios about a
Speaker 2: range of ideas that I had thrown at Jack in
Speaker 2: our meeting. Like I said, you know, you send out
Speaker 2: these bios to the trade publications. They get so many
Speaker 2: of them from all the labels. You should be sending them,
Speaker 2: you know, a little disc And I had a thing
Speaker 2: that my mom had sent me from the Caribbean, which
Speaker 2: was a record that you could play right, And I said,
Speaker 2: and I can like interview your artists and talk to
Speaker 2: them and also cut radio spots. I don't know what
Speaker 2: I said. I made up all this stuff and then
Speaker 2: I did it. That's that's that's like grand prom That's
Speaker 2: what I do. Like they get up and then I
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how long do you work in elector records?
Speaker 2: Not that long? Because in the beginning I liked it
Speaker 2: because I liked the artists that I was doing, Delaney
Speaker 2: and Bonnie. Oh who is that great crew? The I'm
Speaker 2: blanking their name, you know. Iggy was on the label,
Speaker 2: a bunch of artists that I liked. But then he
Speaker 2: wanted me to do people that I didn't like, and
Speaker 2: I didn't want to do that. And I'm someone who
Speaker 2: thinks like, if you're unhappy at what you're doing, change it.
Speaker 2: So that's what I did. Yeah, actually I missed a step,
Speaker 2: to tell you the truth. When I went around trying
Speaker 2: to get a job as a production assistant and they
Speaker 2: wouldn't hire me, I decided to try NBC and to
Speaker 2: see how it worked there. How you got a job
Speaker 2: as a production assistant And they told me that I
Speaker 2: could be a guide and after I'm a guide for
Speaker 2: six months, then I could move up to being a
Speaker 2: production assistant. Well, I'm a girl who graduated from college
Speaker 2: in three years with two degrees. I'm not spending six
Speaker 2: months as a guide. So while I was being a guide,
Speaker 2: I got to meet people on this show called Personality,
Speaker 2: where you write questions for the TV show, and I
Speaker 2: talked my way into that. So I was only a
Speaker 2: guide for like, I don't know, a month or two
Speaker 2: months before, I was a writer for a television show
Speaker 2: called Personality. All you had to do was write questions.
Speaker 2: And then I decided I didn't like TV. I didn't
Speaker 2: like that, I didn't like being around it. And that
Speaker 2: was when when I must have met Bob Zachary through Inky,
Speaker 2: and I went in the direction of music.
Speaker 1: Two questions. How long did you write questions for personality?
Speaker 2: Not that long because I knew I didn't like it.
Speaker 2: I really don't remember it a long time ago.
Speaker 1: And where is Inky today?
Speaker 2: I think she's in Greece. She married a Greek film producer.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you leave Electric Records with another job or
Speaker 1: you just say I can't take it anymore.
Speaker 2: Oh, no, no job. When I leave things, I normally
Speaker 2: don't at the moment have something that I'm going to.
Speaker 2: I just am like, I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker 2: And I decided I had for my sister made studded
Speaker 2: leather belts, and I knew I could sell them to
Speaker 2: some of the musicians that I've met. And I also,
Speaker 2: uh became a peddler in New York. I had these puppets,
Speaker 2: uh marionettes. One is actually up there still. I would
Speaker 2: go to l A hold on if you don't, Oh,
Speaker 2: I can't get up there anyway. I wanted to show. Oh,
Speaker 2: but she looks just like me, and uh, so I
Speaker 2: would sit uh with my marionettes at the episcopal.
Speaker 1: Well you went to where did the you talked about
Speaker 1: going to l a, and where did the marionettes come from?
Speaker 2: My sister and I went over to Tijuana and I
Speaker 2: saw these marionettes and I said, oh, I can sell those,
Speaker 2: sou So I bought dozens of them, and I told
Speaker 2: them when I went through the you know the customs,
Speaker 2: you know where you drive through with your car, that
Speaker 2: I was a school teacher and I was bringing them back,
Speaker 2: you know, for my kids. And then I sold them
Speaker 2: for a while on this street.
Speaker 1: How much was the puppet?
Speaker 2: I still have the case, one for three, two for five.
Speaker 2: And I would sit there from about four point thirty
Speaker 2: to six o'clock and I would make at least three
Speaker 2: hundred dollars in cash.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because people were leaving work walking down Fifth Avenue
Speaker 2: so they could bring a marionette home for their kid,
Speaker 2: you know. And I just did that for a while
Speaker 2: to be able to have money to figure out what
Speaker 2: is it I really wanted to do.
Speaker 1: Wait one second, were you just standing there by the
Speaker 1: cash box or were you playing with the marionette? Were
Speaker 1: you closing the people? How much? Were you a salesperson?
Speaker 2: Oh? I have a picture there. I had. I have
Speaker 2: a picture of me doing it. I didn't have to
Speaker 2: sell much. I mean, I just I had a case
Speaker 2: that was open and it said one for three, two
Speaker 2: for five, and I just sat there and played with
Speaker 2: my marionettes and people would buy them. And that was that.
Speaker 2: It was easy and I could do other things. You know,
Speaker 2: I had enough money to pay my rent to eat food.
Speaker 2: That was what I, you know, cared most about.
Speaker 1: So you did that for how long? And then what?
Speaker 2: I don't remember it. I don't I didn't do it
Speaker 2: for that long, don't. I don't really remember.
Speaker 1: Well, what was the next job after that?
Speaker 2: After that? That was when I met Joshua White of
Speaker 2: the Fillmore East and.
Speaker 1: West that ultimately switched from Joshua to Joe. Was Joshua
Speaker 1: still doing the light show at the Fillmore East when
Speaker 1: you met him?
Speaker 2: No, he was starting a new company called Joshua Television.
Speaker 1: How did you meet Joshuaite.
Speaker 2: Through my sister. They were both going to the airport
Speaker 2: to England and I went in the car with my
Speaker 2: sister and that's how I met josh And then when
Speaker 2: josh came back from England, he called me up. We
Speaker 2: talked about what he was doing, and yeah, one thing,
Speaker 2: you know, you just keep working. One thing leads to
Speaker 2: another and do the things that you love to do.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you went to work with josh What were
Speaker 1: you doing there?
Speaker 2: I was, well, I was a few things. I was
Speaker 2: a director because we did a thing called video magnification.
Speaker 2: No one had really done that before. You see it
Speaker 2: all the time now, large screens at events, and we
Speaker 2: basically did the Hollywood Bowl and the Guarden. And that
Speaker 2: was how I ended up at ABC was because we
Speaker 2: did that for I don't know a year or so,
Speaker 2: and then ABC came to Joshua and said that they
Speaker 2: wanted him to work on the first late night rock
Speaker 2: and roll TV show. So when I worked with Joshua,
Speaker 2: I called all the shots that were not being recorded
Speaker 2: that were live, and he called what was going to camera?
Speaker 2: So that really helped. And I'd studied television directing, but
Speaker 2: actually doing it like that for a period of time,
Speaker 2: you know, really increased my skill and my confidence.
Speaker 1: And this is in concert.
Speaker 2: Yes, ABC in concert?
Speaker 1: Okay, So how do you leave there to go to
Speaker 1: work for Grand Funk?
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, you leave Grand Funk.
Speaker 1: Then what do you do?
Speaker 2: Oh? By that time I decided that it was always
Speaker 2: photography that allowed me to travel meet people, do a
Speaker 2: variety of different things. So I thought I'll just take
Speaker 2: pictures and see what happens.
Speaker 1: Just a little bit slow when you how skilled were
Speaker 1: you as a photographer and were you getting paid to
Speaker 1: be a photographer before you made that decision.
Speaker 2: Well, when I did all the stuff for Grand Funk,
Speaker 2: you know, I did the three D album cover, that
Speaker 2: was a first and learning how to do things. I mean,
Speaker 2: no one had ever done a three D cover. In
Speaker 2: part was just me figuring it out. I don't think
Speaker 2: it's so hard to figure how to do things, and
Speaker 2: I was self taught in photography. I just to me
Speaker 2: balancing light and time, and then it's about the eye
Speaker 2: that you have. So and when it comes to pictures
Speaker 2: with people, it's about directing, which you know, I'm a
Speaker 2: control freak, so I direct and it suited me. But
Speaker 2: it also suited me because I wasn't tied down by
Speaker 2: a lot of people or meetings. I could just make
Speaker 2: my pictures. One of the things when I was directing
Speaker 2: for in concert was someone from a record label was
Speaker 2: in the mobile unit while I was calling my shots,
Speaker 2: and he saw my storyboard and said he wanted to
Speaker 2: use one of the pictures on the storyboard for an
Speaker 2: album cover and I said how much and he said
Speaker 2: one thousand dollars And I said, what about fifteen hundred
Speaker 2: And he said, okay, I got fifteen hundred. I get
Speaker 2: paid five hundred dollars to direct this show. And you know,
Speaker 2: I have to go to all these meetings and it's
Speaker 2: so aggravating, and I deal with stupid people that you
Speaker 2: know that it was like what am I doing? You know?
Speaker 2: So that was a key to me. Also, I knew
Speaker 2: from Grand Funk, from taking pictures of them and supplying them,
Speaker 2: that there was a market around the world. It wasn't
Speaker 2: just magazines in America. You know, there's Japanese magazines, there's
Speaker 2: French magazines, things that German magazines, things that like you
Speaker 2: just don't think of if you're not thinking about, you know,
Speaker 2: being a professional in that field. So I just decided,
Speaker 2: you know what, for a while, it's just going to
Speaker 2: be me and my camera.
Speaker 1: So how'd you get gigs?
Speaker 2: Either? I made pictures and I took them around, Like
Speaker 2: for example, I took pictures with one of my dolls
Speaker 2: and I called it rape of the Doll, and I
Speaker 2: took it to the National Lampoon and Anne Beats was
Speaker 2: doing the first She was the editor of the first
Speaker 2: all women edition of the Lampoon and she published My
Speaker 2: Rape of a Doll. And by being friends with Anne,
Speaker 2: then I at all these other people from the Lampoon
Speaker 2: and I started writing and shooting photo fundies for them.
Speaker 2: You know, just one thing leads to another.
Speaker 1: It actually doesn't that, but we'll get to that in
Speaker 1: a minute. So how do you end up shooting musicians?
Speaker 2: Ah well, I had friends who were musicians, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's the subject. I'm not really into force people, not
Speaker 2: that I wouldn't photograph them, but those were my friends,
Speaker 2: those those were those were the people that I felt
Speaker 2: closest to be my tribe. I've always been about images
Speaker 2: and music. You know, those those two things have uh
Speaker 2: have definitely made up who I am. You know, That's
Speaker 2: what world powers is. Uh, it's a a strault of
Speaker 2: where imagery meets you know, music. My videos that were
Speaker 2: not made to be advertisements for a record. They were
Speaker 2: made to make the idea bigger than just a song.
Speaker 2: So you know it's I'm turned on by by finding
Speaker 2: new things and figuring out how to take things that
Speaker 2: already exist and applying them in new ways. So a
Speaker 2: lot of the time, you know, I worked on beck.
Speaker 2: I mean when I started shooting let's say, pictures of
Speaker 2: Patty Smith, who you've become. You know, I've become friends
Speaker 2: with her. We're still friends. It was more about because
Speaker 2: I liked your Patty did I liked what she looked like.
Speaker 2: I'll make some pictures and then I always felt, just
Speaker 2: like I could with the Marionettes, I'll go present them
Speaker 2: to the label or management and I can sell them.
Speaker 2: And I would say probably ninety percent of my career
Speaker 2: in that area of photography is me doing it and
Speaker 2: then selling it, not being hired.
Speaker 1: Okay, how did it graduate to being hired?
Speaker 2: I'm not hired that often.
Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to when you start doing it.
Speaker 1: In the seventies and eighties, were labels and other people
Speaker 1: calling you to shoot different things, or was always the
Speaker 1: same you're shooting and you're selling.
Speaker 2: Oh no, there's a mix. But more of it was
Speaker 2: me shooting and selling. And then there were times where
Speaker 2: you know, I might have been the flavor of the
Speaker 2: month for the art director at Columbia or the art
Speaker 2: director at Warner Brothers, you know, and then they're on
Speaker 2: to something else. But I would say for the most part,
Speaker 2: you know, you just keep on working, making work, whether
Speaker 2: whether they're hiring or not. And you know, like, for example,
Speaker 2: I saw for Exampa when I was riding my bike
Speaker 2: in New York, and I saw him go into the
Speaker 2: Saint Regis Hotel, and so I wrote a letter and
Speaker 2: I dropped it off and I said in my letter,
Speaker 2: you know about how if he came to my studio,
Speaker 2: it would cost me about at least one thousand dollars,
Speaker 2: which is a lot of money to a Jewish shoot
Speaker 2: with him. But during that shoot, I'd shoot enough setups
Speaker 2: that I could then go sell them to all the magazines,
Speaker 2: and he could approve what would go out, and if
Speaker 2: he didn't like my pictures, we'd kill them. And so
Speaker 2: he only had like an hour or two to lose,
Speaker 2: whereas I had one thousand dollars to lose. And I
Speaker 2: wouldn't be offering this because I'm not stupid that I
Speaker 2: want to lose one thousand dollars. So Frank responded and
Speaker 2: called me, and he came over and we did the
Speaker 2: pictures and like for eleven years, I mean, from then on, anytime,
Speaker 2: the record label or someone wanted pictures. Frank was hiring me,
Speaker 2: So every situation is different. But I went ahead and
Speaker 2: did that with Frank because I really respected Frank Zampa
Speaker 2: and wanted to work.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're working in the music area. You talk about
Speaker 1: your friend Nancy and Life magazine, you talk about national geographic.
Speaker 1: How does it spread out into non music world?
Speaker 2: Oh well, I felt I had to do that in
Speaker 2: order to stay sane. In other words, if I kept
Speaker 2: bringing up music pictures, let's say the newsweek or Time
Speaker 2: for the people section, or you know, just saying why
Speaker 2: don't you consider this, then when things happened, you know,
Speaker 2: you get to know those people. And then when things
Speaker 2: happened like Challenger the you know, I went to Florida
Speaker 2: for the UH spaceship that unfortunately blew up with the
Speaker 2: teacher on it and everything. You know, you get those
Speaker 2: kinds of jobs too, you know. There's all I didn't
Speaker 2: want to just shoot music. There are people, you know,
Speaker 2: like Danny Clinch who's a wonderful photographer, but he only
Speaker 2: wants to shoot music. That's what he does, right. I'm
Speaker 2: not like that. I'm not one thing. I'm not And
Speaker 2: just as much as I shot music. I shot movie stars,
Speaker 2: maybe not just as much, but quite a bit, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I did Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back. I
Speaker 2: just saw the other day someone posted a nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: eight cover of one of my studio portraits of Griffin Dunn.
Speaker 2: You know. So I have a very wide range, and
Speaker 2: in part it hurts me because when people, especially nowadays,
Speaker 2: where there's so much coming at us all the time,
Speaker 2: when they think of you, they need to have you
Speaker 2: in a box, they need to associate you with one
Speaker 2: thing because there's just too much going on. And that's
Speaker 2: not who I've ever been. I'm a lot of different things,
Speaker 2: you know. And that's the way it is for me.
Speaker 2: And it has its pluses and it's minuses.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to this era. You shoot, Frank,
Speaker 1: You're going to the magazine's selling pictures. How do you
Speaker 1: establish the price?
Speaker 2: Oh well, they have rates. You learn that, but you know,
Speaker 2: you ask questions. They have a rate for a quarter page,
Speaker 2: a half page, a full page, a cover. And then
Speaker 2: also I joined the ASMP, there are unions that will
Speaker 2: tell you, you know, what the guideline is to be paid.
Speaker 2: But like for example, when I first started working for Newsweek.
Speaker 2: They told me the day rate was three hundred dollars.
Speaker 2: And then I talked to my friends later on who
Speaker 2: are gods, and I said, how much do you get paid?
Speaker 2: They get paid five hundred dollars. So it's your job
Speaker 2: to educate. So I went back to music and I said,
Speaker 2: I'm five hundred dollars from now on, right, So you
Speaker 2: just have to educate yourself and take responsibility for it.
Speaker 2: You can't blame somebody for wanting to get a deal
Speaker 2: on you, you know, but then don't let yourself be used.
Speaker 1: How about the issue of being fearful that the price
Speaker 1: is too high, they'll go to somebody else.
Speaker 2: Let them go. That's how it works, you know, That's
Speaker 2: how you set your price. Unfortunately, there are too many,
Speaker 2: especially photographers, that think this way, and that's why it
Speaker 2: has so lowered the market.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you talked about going to shoot the Challenger,
Speaker 1: which ended up being a disaster. That was a hired gig.
Speaker 1: Right the Newsweek or whatever said hey, good, oh.
Speaker 2: I would yeah, or I would call them up. By
Speaker 2: this time, you know, things weren't email and texts and
Speaker 2: all of that. You went up to the publication, I
Speaker 2: had years of like being up there knowing them, and
Speaker 2: I could say I really want to cover this, and
Speaker 2: they know I'm good, so they would say yes. But
Speaker 2: it was most and it's not just me. Most photographers
Speaker 2: do suggest like when I went to a Life magazine
Speaker 2: and said, I want to do a story on Tony Robbins.
Speaker 2: And here's why, you know, I want to do a
Speaker 2: story on this or that. If they think it's a
Speaker 2: good story, they'll send you.
Speaker 1: And then there was like a going rate you knew
Speaker 1: to charge for that or was it a negotiation every time?
Speaker 2: No, there were when you work for a publication there
Speaker 2: you know, there always is a day rate or what
Speaker 2: they call a day rate against space.
Speaker 1: And then how'd you end up shooting movie stars?
Speaker 2: Probably well I wanted to, but also like I met
Speaker 2: uh I don't remember who were the first movie stars
Speaker 2: I photographed, but I met Carrie Fisher and we became friends.
Speaker 2: It wasn't a matter of shooting, we were just friends.
Speaker 2: And then when it came time for the film, she
Speaker 2: insisted that I had to be the photographer, you know,
Speaker 2: so then you do one thing and that leads to
Speaker 2: another thing. But I used to do a lot of
Speaker 2: suggesting to Newsweek in time of who I thought would
Speaker 2: be good for them to do a story or a
Speaker 2: little peith on in that section in the people section.
Speaker 2: I mean, my first cover of People was Sissy Space.
Speaker 2: That was shot. Sissy actually called me up because she
Speaker 2: wanted to meet Patty Smith, and I said, well, I'd
Speaker 2: like to do pictures with you. I can have Patty
Speaker 2: come over, you know, And then I ran them around
Speaker 2: to the magazine and People Magazine used it as a cover,
Speaker 2: so people might think I shot it for People Magazine,
Speaker 2: but I didn't, you know, I shot it for me.
Speaker 2: And that takes a lot of pressure off as well,
Speaker 2: because you're when you're working with these people, you're just
Speaker 2: trying to collaborate and make something, you know, fun, and
Speaker 2: that makes them look good. It's not brain surgery.
Speaker 1: How big a switch was it for you personally to
Speaker 1: go from film to digital and were you an early
Speaker 1: adopter or lad adopter?
Speaker 2: Early very early. I'm always interested in new technologies and
Speaker 2: I saw them as different forms of expression and still do.
Speaker 2: Film is different than digital, and it's not that one
Speaker 2: is better than another. They're different and you choose them
Speaker 2: based on what you're thinking you want to experience and
Speaker 2: what you want the outcome to beate.
Speaker 1: And do you still shoot film sometimes?
Speaker 2: Sometimes I have a refrigerator full of it, Yeah, all
Speaker 2: ready to go. But I don't like the idea of
Speaker 2: then you scan it you know, because everyone wants to
Speaker 2: look at it digital, right?
Speaker 1: And what editing program do you use?
Speaker 2: Lightroom okay? And also photo Mechanic, And what's.
Speaker 1: Your opinion about the ability to edit pictures so much?
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I'm just even on a user level.
Speaker 1: Google introduced a new pixel where you can do all
Speaker 1: kinds of things, eliminating people from the picture, putting people in.
Speaker 1: Do you have a philosophy on that? No.
Speaker 2: I actually did a body of work of self portraits
Speaker 2: where I photographed windows in New York City because it
Speaker 2: was the whole series was an investigation into identity and
Speaker 2: how do we pick what we're going to wear, what
Speaker 2: we want to look like, what are our body models?
Speaker 2: And in it nothing is really real. I remove things
Speaker 2: from the window and then I add other photographs, so
Speaker 2: when you look at the final photograph, it looks like
Speaker 2: it's one photograph, but it could be one hundred photographs.
Speaker 2: I was creating images which question what's real from what's imagined.
Speaker 2: Starting in like two thousand, I started working on that
Speaker 2: series and did it seriously and intently for ten years.
Speaker 2: And so how I feel about it is if an
Speaker 2: artist wants to use that to make work which is
Speaker 2: a certain kind of expression of their ideas, that's their choice.
Speaker 2: Me I spent enough time in front of the computer
Speaker 2: screen for ten years that I'm just not interested in
Speaker 2: changing up reality and doesn't I'm done.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell my audience about the Worldhole case, which went
Speaker 1: all the way to the Supreme Court.
Speaker 2: Well, there are often people, whether it's on social media
Speaker 2: or individuals who think that they can make work from
Speaker 2: your work that don't really understand the cost and what
Speaker 2: goes into making that original image and the relationships. And
Speaker 2: so I've always been quite protective of my copyright. And
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four, an image of an image that
Speaker 2: I had made in nineteen eighty one of the artist
Speaker 2: Prince was used for an an artist illustration one time
Speaker 2: in Vanity Fair. I was unaware of it, and I
Speaker 2: didn't know who the artist was. I had an agency
Speaker 2: that licensed rights to my pictures and to other people's pictures,
Speaker 2: and so when Prince died in twenty sixteen. I saw
Speaker 2: this image of prints on the cover of what's called
Speaker 2: a boocasine that Vanity Fair puts out. It's when the
Speaker 2: whole addition is dedicated, you know, to a specific artist.
Speaker 2: They call them bookasines, even though it's amagazine, and so
Speaker 2: it looked familiar to me, and I went through my No,
Speaker 2: I know what I did look familiar to me, So
Speaker 2: I put it in Google Images and up came the
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article. That's how I knew
Speaker 2: like it is mine because my credit was there in
Speaker 2: the nineteen eighty four publication. And so I went and
Speaker 2: I looked for my invoice that had been made out
Speaker 2: to Vanity Fair and the submission for any paperwork, which
Speaker 2: I save all of that because I'm well aware of
Speaker 2: how that can determine rights to your work. And called
Speaker 2: up the Warhol Foundation and explained that it had just
Speaker 2: come to my attention and that I'd like to talk
Speaker 2: to them about this. And I sent them the picture
Speaker 2: the invoice, and I said, you know, I'd like to
Speaker 2: find out what else you done with it other than this,
Speaker 2: because no one ever licensed any rights from me, and
Speaker 2: to make a long story short, they did what's called
Speaker 2: a preemptive lawsuit. They sued me in federal court and
Speaker 2: then basically offered me a very small amount of money
Speaker 2: and if I would give them my copyright and otherwise,
Speaker 2: I should realize that they have very deep pockets and
Speaker 2: that they no matter what court I win in, they
Speaker 2: will continue to appeal it all the way to the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court, and that could cost me millions of dollars.
Speaker 1: Just so my audience understand, Andy Whirlhole essentially had painted
Speaker 1: on top of your photo, and that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Well, he made a silk screen, and the process of
Speaker 2: making a silk screen you take a black and white
Speaker 2: there's a high contrast of it, and then you take
Speaker 2: these inks and you go over it, and then you
Speaker 2: could put paint on it if you want it, but
Speaker 2: it starts that. That's more or less the process. And
Speaker 2: it was licensed for one time print use in one
Speaker 2: edition of Vanity Fair. I had no idea that there
Speaker 2: were sixteen silk screens and a range of other things
Speaker 2: that had happened with it. You know, Andy Air re
Speaker 2: licensediff from me, and nobody else had either, you know, So.
Speaker 1: Anyway, so they basically have a preemptive lawsuit, basically saying
Speaker 1: take this offer or will bury you in paper and costs.
Speaker 2: That's right, And the paper was filled with a bunch
Speaker 2: of lies, which really got me upset. Said that I
Speaker 2: tried to extort them, which is absolutely not true. They
Speaker 2: didn't use the black and white image that I sent them.
Speaker 2: They used a color image, and they showed in the
Speaker 2: federal court documents how the color image the head was
Speaker 2: turned a little bit. Well, it wasn't the color image.
Speaker 2: It was a black and white image. In addition, they
Speaker 2: showed the nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article and they
Speaker 2: removed my name. It was all so gangster like and
Speaker 2: bullying that I just said, hey, I got to stand
Speaker 2: up and fight this. And I thought to myself, you know,
Speaker 2: I keep hearing from so many artists, whether they are musicians, writers, photographers,
Speaker 2: who are sick of people just taking their stuff. I'm
Speaker 2: going to have a go fund me because what's important
Speaker 2: here is that we tighten up the definition of what
Speaker 2: is fair use. It's very clear in you know, in
Speaker 2: the in the legal definition. However, in my opinion, but
Speaker 2: there have been various court rulings where the person fighting
Speaker 2: it maybe didn't have real good representation, and it kept
Speaker 2: making the definition of fair use more broad, more and
Speaker 2: more broad, and I just you know, this lawsuit started
Speaker 2: in the era of the presidency of Donald Trump, and
Speaker 2: I just couldn't take any more bullying, pushing around threats
Speaker 2: of lawsuits, and I said, I'm going to make this
Speaker 2: go fund me and if every even every professional photographer,
Speaker 2: of which there's one hundred and ninety thousand listed in
Speaker 2: the United States alone, ten dollars, I'd be in good shape.
Speaker 2: And so unfortunately the GoFundMe, which is still there, if
Speaker 2: any of your listeners feel that they have a responsibility
Speaker 2: too to uh stand up and fight for copyright, I
Speaker 2: made it clear that there was no money in my
Speaker 2: GoFundMe for me to make and that should I be
Speaker 2: awarded any fees, that I would start a legal fund
Speaker 2: for other artists who you know, don't have the ability
Speaker 2: to you know, to fight this kind of fight. Anyway,
Speaker 2: it went, as we know, all the way to the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court, which was seven years. It was a lot
Speaker 2: of my time. It was stressful, it was financially very stressful,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, the go fundme to date has raised about
Speaker 2: sixty eight thousand dollars, which is nowhere near what it
Speaker 2: costs to fight to take it all the way. But
Speaker 2: I do you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't change my
Speaker 2: decision because I felt like I couldn't live with myself
Speaker 2: if I just back down. It's not who I am.
Speaker 2: So you know, I sang Tom Petty's song to myself
Speaker 2: a number of times, and you know, and it's still
Speaker 2: not over with because it goes to the district court now,
Speaker 2: who decides if there are damages, and the Warhol people
Speaker 2: are threatening other things. So you know, I'll be glad
Speaker 2: when it's all over. But you know, it wasn't just
Speaker 2: a matter of me paying the legal these necessary to
Speaker 2: the level of lawyer that can fight, the level of
Speaker 2: lawyer that the foundation hires. But it's also about being
Speaker 2: able to kind of look at myself in the mirror,
Speaker 2: and you know, just feeling like if you don't stand
Speaker 2: up for your rights, you lose your rights. I've said
Speaker 2: that for a long time to other photographers, to other artists,
Speaker 2: and it's like here I was, you know, in a
Speaker 2: position of risking everything because should I have lost, they
Speaker 2: were also suing me for their legal fees, so it
Speaker 2: would have eaten up. I would not have a condo
Speaker 2: in Aspen or a condo in New York. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: even have a house in Nashville. I'd be on the street.
Speaker 2: So there was really a lot of risk for me.
Speaker 1: So how much are you out of pocket on the
Speaker 1: legal fees?
Speaker 2: Well, some of the legal fees are pro bono. So
Speaker 2: the total bill comes to about three point four million
Speaker 2: dollars and I'm probably out about half a million.
Speaker 1: Okay, just so my audience knows. Describe the Ultimate Supreme
Speaker 1: Court decision.
Speaker 2: The Ultimate Supreme Court decision tightens up what is transformative
Speaker 2: under the fair use aspect of the copyright law and
Speaker 2: how that affects us. If you go to the go fundme,
Speaker 2: it's gofunme dot com slash Warhol vs. Goldsmith. I explain
Speaker 2: and show how in all the arts, if I were
Speaker 2: to have lost this, okay, it would mean that if
Speaker 2: it was a song or another picture, you could just
Speaker 2: turn it another color, draw a circle around it, change
Speaker 2: a word or two here or there in a script,
Speaker 2: and you lose your copyright. And I really feel that
Speaker 2: copyrights are what has enabled our American culture to be
Speaker 2: so strong and so powerful, and what are we but
Speaker 2: our culture? You know, I want to be in places
Speaker 2: where that's valued.
Speaker 1: Okay, So just to nail it down, the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: ultimately ruled in your favor and said it was infringement.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay.
Speaker 1: So today, at this laid date, how much are you
Speaker 1: working and are you doing it the same way making
Speaker 1: pictures and then monetizing them.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm painting and then I'll just side. You know,
Speaker 2: if I'm selling my paintings, maybe someone will walk into
Speaker 2: my gallery and want one of my paintings. I work
Speaker 2: to talk about and promote my books. I have gallery shows,
Speaker 2: I have talked you know, I keep busy. Is that
Speaker 2: what you're asking?
Speaker 1: Well, that's partial. And to what degree are you making photographs?
Speaker 2: Oh? This past year probably less than ever, although when
Speaker 2: I'm in Colorado, I'm generally making them almost every day.
Speaker 1: Okay. Let's go back to thirty odds actually forty years
Speaker 1: ago at this point, what exactly happened between you and
Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen and Madison Square Garden.
Speaker 2: Well, I was involved with Musicians United for Safe Energy,
Speaker 2: Bruce was not, and I at the time also owned
Speaker 2: a company LGI, a photo agency, and so my company
Speaker 2: paid for MEWS. That was our contribution all the film
Speaker 2: and processing that would be done during rehearsals, during shows,
Speaker 2: handled the press of getting it out there to the
Speaker 2: magazines and newspapers, and worked on selecting what photographers would
Speaker 2: be shooting what during the event. When the event started,
Speaker 2: Bruce decided that he that he was going to join
Speaker 2: in and play. And so we had a meeting, he
Speaker 2: and I because we were broken up and Bruce had
Speaker 2: started dating someone, and I wanted everything to be comfortable.
Speaker 2: So we had a meeting and I said, when you
Speaker 2: get there, which was going to be like nine o'clock
Speaker 2: at night, eight or nine at night, maybe later, I said,
Speaker 2: I will be shooting front stage. I'll put Joel because
Speaker 2: I knew he knew him, you know, backstage with you.
Speaker 2: What I was going to be doing. A typical meeting,
Speaker 2: and that was I thought it was fine with Bruce.
Speaker 2: And then the evening came and there were a few things.
Speaker 2: One Bruce always got incredibly back in those days. He
Speaker 2: got incredibly nervous when playing Madison Square Garden, really nervous. Also,
Speaker 2: it was his thirtieth birthday and he had a whole
Speaker 2: thing about as many young people do, like when I
Speaker 2: turned thirty. So he had a thing about like his
Speaker 2: thirtieth birthday. So anyway, I'm in the front where I
Speaker 2: said I was going to be about thirteen rows back
Speaker 2: with the film crew, and it comes time for I
Speaker 2: think a quarter to three. That was the song. And
Speaker 2: a few things that happened that were very unlike Bruce. One,
Speaker 2: because it was his birthday, someone handed him a cake
Speaker 2: from the audience, and he took the cake and he
Speaker 2: threw it back at the people in the front in
Speaker 2: the audience. Bruce isn't like that. I thought that was
Speaker 2: weird because he would't want to like get cake all
Speaker 2: over people. And then on Promised Land he threw his
Speaker 2: harmonica with real kind of anger into the audience. And
Speaker 2: that in the early days with Bruce, I being how
Speaker 2: I was like with Grand Funk and everything, It's like,
Speaker 2: I think it would be a good idea, like to
Speaker 2: throw your harmonica, you know, bluh ohhh. And he got
Speaker 2: real mad at me and said that could hurt somebody,
Speaker 2: you know. I was like, oh yeah, I wasn't thinking that.
Speaker 2: I was just thinking of like the picture and what
Speaker 2: I'm going to do here, and so I think that
Speaker 2: when you're young, and you are you've had a very
Speaker 2: close relationship with someone that if you're going to freak out,
Speaker 2: you're going to freak out on them. And when I
Speaker 2: saw him do those two things that were kind of
Speaker 2: violent and not like him. He bent down on one
Speaker 2: knee and he went like this with toll yeah, curling
Speaker 2: his finger and the look in his eye look crazy,
Speaker 2: and the house lights were on. So I just grabbed
Speaker 2: up my camera bag and I started running down the
Speaker 2: aisle and Bruce jumped off the stage and chased me
Speaker 2: down and twisted my arm behind my back, and I
Speaker 2: kept saying, don't do this, don't do this, and anyway,
Speaker 2: he pulled me up on stage. Mind you, for a
Speaker 2: long time in our relationship, I did not want anyone
Speaker 2: to know that Bruce was my boyfriend because I want
Speaker 2: to be Lyn Boltsmith and I don't want Uh. I
Speaker 2: was I was sensitive about that. I shouldn't have been,
Speaker 2: because I should care less what people who I don't
Speaker 2: know or really care about think, unlike what the person
Speaker 2: you love things. And so I was incapable of being
Speaker 2: really supportive of Bruce when he needed it. And uh, anyway,
Speaker 2: he jumped off the stage, twisted my arm and threw
Speaker 2: me off the side of the stage. It was a
Speaker 2: bad moment as far as you know, I'm concerned in
Speaker 2: h not just for me. It was quite shocking for me,
Speaker 2: but I don't, you know, I kind of think that
Speaker 2: sometimes people who were in love or were close behave
Speaker 2: in ways that they wouldn't normally behave. And it's just
Speaker 2: really sad that this was in front of twenty thousand
Speaker 2: people and that it horrified me. And then the next
Speaker 2: day there were headlines in the paper, the New York
Speaker 2: Post about how I was suing Bruce. I never sued Bruce.
Speaker 2: All of that stuff is like people make it up,
Speaker 2: and people made up for years that, like I was
Speaker 2: blacklisted from Columbia from anyone hiring me at CBS. But
Speaker 2: I wasn't about to go like, hey, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: the one who spent which is a lot of money,
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars, like on photographer's film processing, getting all
Speaker 2: this stuff out there, doing all this work, giving my time.
Speaker 2: This guy comes in at the end treats me like that, which,
Speaker 2: by the way, when he threw me off to the side,
Speaker 2: the other people who did run it like Danny Goldberg,
Speaker 2: they were all part of Muse Elliott Roberts. They were
Speaker 2: like pulling on one arm saying you can't throw her out,
Speaker 2: and on the other arm was like security people. And
Speaker 2: I'm like, I just want to go home, Okay, just
Speaker 2: want to go home. So it's a very unpleasant memory
Speaker 2: for me that many people have their own take on.
Speaker 2: You know, they say they were there. I've sat at
Speaker 2: dinner tables where people are telling the story and obviously
Speaker 2: they were not listening when I was introduced to them,
Speaker 2: and they'll say, you know, something will come up. This
Speaker 2: hasn't happened in many years, but back then, so I
Speaker 2: was there. I was sitting behind her. She jumped up
Speaker 2: on stage. Blah blah blah blah blah. So people are
Speaker 2: going to make up whatever they want. Bottom line, I
Speaker 2: perceive it as a moment that Bruce lost it, and
Speaker 2: because I'm it's the way you are kind of with
Speaker 2: family that nobody else should ever see, and you know,
Speaker 2: so it's a it's a real unpleasant memory for me
Speaker 2: because I feel like I'm blamed. I didn't do anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when was the next time you had contact with him?
Speaker 2: Actually it was I don't know if it was a
Speaker 2: year or two later. I didn't talk to him for
Speaker 2: a while, and then I was staying at the Sunset Marquis,
Speaker 2: and I think it was a year later. I was
Speaker 2: staying at the Sunset Marquis and the room above me
Speaker 2: was playing music really loud, right, So I called up,
Speaker 2: you know, one room flight up and I said, you know,
Speaker 2: can you lower the music? And and it was Bruce.
Speaker 2: So he said, you know, come on, let's meet and talk.
Speaker 2: And that's what we did.
Speaker 1: How did the relationship end.
Speaker 2: Nicely?
Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, we've all broken up. Everybody says it's mutual,
Speaker 1: but it's always somebody wants to break.
Speaker 2: It wasn't mutual. It wasn't mutual. I didn't want to
Speaker 2: be in the relationship anymore. And I think that's part
Speaker 2: of why what happened at Madison Square Garden happened. When
Speaker 2: he pulled me up on stage and said, I want
Speaker 2: you to meet my ex girlfriend, He's like announcing it,
Speaker 2: you know where it's like I had like tried keeping
Speaker 2: it secret, right, and uh, it wasn't mutual. I felt
Speaker 2: that Bruce really needed someone who was capable of really
Speaker 2: being there for him, and that wasn't me, uh you know,
Speaker 2: like he really wanted me in La one time. And
Speaker 2: it's like I've got a shoot to do with Frankie Badley,
Speaker 2: I'm not coming there, you know. And it's like, you
Speaker 2: love someone they're nervous about something, What is that so important?
Speaker 2: Go be there with them, support them? You know? Is
Speaker 2: so h It's just young love, you know. But for me,
Speaker 2: I was very clear in my own mind, not only
Speaker 2: about the career that I wanted to have and that
Speaker 2: I didn't want to get married and the rest of it,
Speaker 2: but that I I didn't I didn't if I were
Speaker 2: to be missus. I mean I used to that poor guy.
Speaker 2: I mean I remember, uh we Robert Hilbert, the critic,
Speaker 2: was a friend of mine, and yeah, and we were
Speaker 2: Bruce and I were at the movies or something, and
Speaker 2: you know, we'd be standing in line at the movies,
Speaker 2: and like I think I saw Robert and I pulled
Speaker 2: my hand out of Bruce's, you know, like I don't
Speaker 2: want to be seen holding his hand, you know. And
Speaker 2: then Roberts saw us. He said, oh hi, and and
Speaker 2: he proceeded to just look and talk to Bruce, not
Speaker 2: to me. Okay, And for wherever I was at at
Speaker 2: the time. Poor b I don't say anything. Poor Bruce.
Speaker 2: We get home and he's got to listen to me
Speaker 2: go on about I can't believe that he didn't say
Speaker 2: he just talks to you. They think you're so important.
Speaker 2: I'm smarter than you are, you know, I mean that,
Speaker 2: poor guy, you know, I know. So I feel really
Speaker 2: blessed that I had that kind of you know, very
Speaker 2: strong love and companion at a point in my life.
Speaker 2: And what I learned from it, and I always knew like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to be married to somebody who's on
Speaker 2: the road. I don't want that life. You know. It's
Speaker 2: one of the reasons I didn't continue on with will
Speaker 2: Powers when will Powers had success. I don't really want
Speaker 2: to do that. I don't want to spend my time,
Speaker 2: you know, backstage and all of that. It just it
Speaker 2: seems like a waste of a life.
Speaker 1: How long were you with Bruce?
Speaker 2: Alltold, I don't talk about it or count it. It
Speaker 2: wasn't really that long when you look at the length
Speaker 2: of our lives.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I know enough very successful people they always say,
Speaker 1: oh I was lucky, etc. But they have to be
Speaker 1: incredibly driven and there has to be something about their personality.
Speaker 1: We've established that you're driven, But are you the type
Speaker 1: of person who was a great networker or was it
Speaker 1: like with Frank Zappa, whenever you saw an opportunity, you
Speaker 1: had the guts to go ask someone to do something.
Speaker 1: What was what made you so succesul?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't think I was a networker, you know,
Speaker 2: that's not my thing. I think that I get an
Speaker 2: idea I want to work with somebody or I want
Speaker 2: to do something, and then I try to make it happen.
Speaker 1: And to what lengths will you go to make it happen.
Speaker 2: I'll put it out there and if it comes back,
Speaker 2: that's great, and if it doesn't, that's fine because there's
Speaker 2: always something else. It's not like that's the only thing
Speaker 2: out there, you know. That's how I feel about it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: otherwise you you'd keep on pushing, you know, and I
Speaker 2: haven't really had to do that.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, then I think we've covered it.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's a lot more we can
Speaker 1: go into, but I think we hit the surface, went
Speaker 1: down a little bit deeper. So I want to thank
Speaker 1: you for taking the time with my audience of course.
Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that you that Eric put us together
Speaker 2: and that you took so much time too.
Speaker 1: That's Eric Brazilian, well known for right eating one of
Speaker 1: us and being a member of the Hooters, who connected
Speaker 1: me and Lynn and any event. Thanks so much, Lynn,
Speaker 1: till next time. This is Bob left sex