WEBVTT - Lynn Goldsmith

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Starts podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest today is photographer Lynn Goldsmith. Lynn, you have

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<v Speaker 1>two new books. Tell me about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, one of them came out in October of twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty three, which is a book called Music in the Eighties,

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<v Speaker 2>and the other book isn't out yet, it'll be out

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<v Speaker 2>by November first, and that's a deluxe tashi and publication

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<v Speaker 2>on Bruce Springsteen and the East Street Band with the

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<v Speaker 2>possibility of you know, buying a print with the book.

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<v Speaker 2>It's different than the Music in the Eighties book, which

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<v Speaker 2>is Rizzoli, and that's a kind of normal what we

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<v Speaker 2>call trade coffee table photo book. And the Book of

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<v Speaker 2>the Eighties was actually a book that I never intended

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<v Speaker 2>on doing because I really didn't want to think about

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<v Speaker 2>the eighties. I had a pretty bad attitude. And it

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<v Speaker 2>was only because my publisher really wanted me to put

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<v Speaker 2>something together that I realized what an amazing musical decade

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<v Speaker 2>it was in terms of so many different types of

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<v Speaker 2>music all gaining real popularity. You know, wasn't just like

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<v Speaker 2>jazz was in the background. Herbie Hancock was having you know,

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<v Speaker 2>his probably biggest time in terms of selling records as

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<v Speaker 2>well as Miles Davis's record, But then you had all

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<v Speaker 2>this new electronic music along with rap, you know, with

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<v Speaker 2>the Beastie Boys. So as I went through it and

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<v Speaker 2>I realized just how free and open and how many

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<v Speaker 2>things were possible in that decade, it got me off

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<v Speaker 2>of thinking about the bad fashion and the bad hair,

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<v Speaker 2>which it kind of turned me off to the eighties.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, your other book is about Springsteen. Why Springsteen? Now,

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<v Speaker 1>you had a love relationship with him, but that was

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<v Speaker 1>in the past. Why now?

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<v Speaker 2>Because Benedictashin of Tashi in Publications wanted to do a

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<v Speaker 2>Bruce book and I wanted if I was going to

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<v Speaker 2>do something, I wanted it to be Bruce and the

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<v Speaker 2>E Street Band. And I thought that Tashion probably does

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<v Speaker 2>the most beautiful job of production, and so I asked

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<v Speaker 2>Bruce if he wanted, you know, wanted me to do that,

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<v Speaker 2>and he did. So that was why I felt that

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<v Speaker 2>at this time, to kind of bring back a moment

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<v Speaker 2>that happened, you know, almost four decades ago, and which

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<v Speaker 2>is so seminole in how Springsteen fans are so dedicated,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's part of their dedication, is the whole

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<v Speaker 2>darkness on the edge of town period, which is what

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<v Speaker 2>this book focuses on.

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<v Speaker 1>So why not, Yeah, Okay, I have a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>tash In books, but there were gifts. Tell me a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit more in my addings, a little bit more

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<v Speaker 1>about tashi and how the production, how the deal, how

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<v Speaker 1>many they print.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's a limited edition. I think it's fifteen hundred copies,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can buy it with the print or without

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<v Speaker 2>the print, and they're really considered collector's items that hopefully

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<v Speaker 2>increase in value for the buyer. But the real thing

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<v Speaker 2>is does when books are like sacred objects to you

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<v Speaker 2>to create one that's really, you know, kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>a work of art and goes very deep and is

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<v Speaker 2>printed with the best printers in the world, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's that's that's a real gift for a photographer. So

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<v Speaker 2>tash In books are what we call trade books, which

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<v Speaker 2>is what I mentioned on music in the eighties. I

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<v Speaker 2>think the retail price of music in the eighties is

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, seventy dollars or something. I'm not familiar exactly,

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<v Speaker 2>but the tashi In book is usually, you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen hundred or two thousand dollars, So you have good

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<v Speaker 2>friends who gave you books.

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<v Speaker 1>Are books lucrative for you?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't do them to make money. With all the

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<v Speaker 2>time that I put into making the book, I'm thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about the fans who I feel deserve deserve the best

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<v Speaker 2>that I, or any photographer who's worked with an artist

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<v Speaker 2>that they love can give them. My time could be

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<v Speaker 2>spent making money much quicker without as much struggle. But

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<v Speaker 2>the fact is I also end up with something that

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<v Speaker 2>I consider to be a beautiful compilation of my work,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's generally how most photographers are. The publishers know

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<v Speaker 2>full well that we all want books. Artists, whether you're

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<v Speaker 2>a photographer or whether you're Eye Way Way, whoever you are,

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<v Speaker 2>books books add to your cachet, your ego as an

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<v Speaker 2>artist wants to see your work in a book form.

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<v Speaker 2>So the motivations aren't financial ones. They are for the publishers.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, since we've talked about your new books, how

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<v Speaker 1>did you meet Springsteen?

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<v Speaker 2>I met him in nineteen seventy two when Rolling Stone

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<v Speaker 2>assigned me to photograph him for I think the name

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<v Speaker 2>of the article was sign Up a Genius Month or

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<v Speaker 2>something like that, something about signing up a genius yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And you had a romance with him. Was the romance

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<v Speaker 1>immediate or was that years down the line?

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<v Speaker 2>It was years down the line.

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<v Speaker 1>So how did it ultimately turn into a romance?

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<v Speaker 2>I guess, like anything else, timing and having an appreciation

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<v Speaker 2>of the other person's humor, their work, and being ready

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<v Speaker 2>or wanting to be in a relationship like anybody else.

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<v Speaker 1>So, since you were there from seventy two, the first

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<v Speaker 1>album came out, Greetings from Asbury Park, The big breakthrough

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<v Speaker 1>is in seventy five. Did you anticipate Bruce would become

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<v Speaker 1>as big as he did?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? I always thought that Bruce, particularly because of the

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<v Speaker 2>live performances, was different than anybody else. And I would

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<v Speaker 2>have hoped that with his talent and his hard work

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<v Speaker 2>and his great desire to really be be it an

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<v Speaker 2>important songwriter, a lyricist, that you know, that he would

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<v Speaker 2>gain that because there's plenty of artists who have become

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<v Speaker 2>quite big that don't necessarily have you know, all of

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<v Speaker 2>those talents.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, My favorite swing seen albums are the second Wildie, Innocent,

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<v Speaker 1>and Darkness. You know there have been all these documentaries.

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<v Speaker 1>There was one about Darkness. Why did you focus on

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<v Speaker 1>darkness in the book.

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<v Speaker 2>Because I felt that that was a really important time

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<v Speaker 2>in Bruce's life, in the life of the East Street Band,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was a seminal moment where, you know, where

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<v Speaker 2>I watched that Bruce could play in Middle America to

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<v Speaker 2>a hall that maybe held three hundred and if he

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<v Speaker 2>was lucky, there were thirty people in the audience. But

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<v Speaker 2>he still did a three or four were our show

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<v Speaker 2>and gave its all, and so did the band. Bruce

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<v Speaker 2>didn't just become who he is on Bruce alone. There's

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<v Speaker 2>the energy of those members who who supported him in

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<v Speaker 2>his real search and struggle to be the best that

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<v Speaker 2>he could be. So my experience during the Darkness on

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<v Speaker 2>the Edge of Town made me want to show Bruce's

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<v Speaker 2>relationship with the band. You know, most books on Bruce

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<v Speaker 2>photo books focused just on Bruce, and I understand that,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, I really feel that there was you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there was it's called Bruce Spreingstein and the Eastreet Band.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's not just Bruce Springsteen. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's also why Bruce wanted me to do the book.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that he wanted to have a record of

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<v Speaker 2>that time.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, the book about the eighties you were a rock

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<v Speaker 1>fan from a very young age, so you talked about

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<v Speaker 1>the bad heir of the eighties. With this amount of distance,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you feel about the music in the eighties.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I, you know, I thought I kind of made

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<v Speaker 2>it clear that when doing the book and realizing all

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<v Speaker 2>the different genres, you know, and I decided to do

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<v Speaker 2>it alphabetically. So you see Banana Rama next to Barry Manilone.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there were just I myself had a hit

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<v Speaker 2>in the eighties, at least in the UK as the

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<v Speaker 2>recording artist Will Powers, so you know, and that was

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<v Speaker 2>electronic music for the most part. So you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's that there were there was ska music that was

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<v Speaker 2>coming up, and then reggae really sort of exploded in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty when unfortunately, you know, Bob Marley made it

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<v Speaker 2>clear to the world that he had brain cancer and

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<v Speaker 2>not a long time to live. There were a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of artists, including you know, the Police, who got a

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<v Speaker 2>certain amount of radio airplay and other things which I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, you know, before before that, reggae was popular

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<v Speaker 2>amongst a certain group of people, but it didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>mass appeal. I'm talking about mass appeal like the way

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<v Speaker 2>Madonna had it and Michael Jackson. So you're talking pop

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<v Speaker 2>music and then soul music also. So what other decade

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<v Speaker 2>had so many different kinds of popular forms of music.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't think of another.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's go back to the seventies. How did you

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<v Speaker 1>get involved with Grand Funk Railroad.

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<v Speaker 2>I was directing a television show called in Concert for ABC,

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<v Speaker 2>and Joshua White was the main director. And I had

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<v Speaker 2>told him because ABC was going to do their first special.

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<v Speaker 2>Normally we just did concerts, but they were going to

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<v Speaker 2>do with a number of artists, and so this was

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<v Speaker 2>going to be the first time that the whole show

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<v Speaker 2>was dedicated to one act. And I said that I

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't that interested anymore in directing just concerts. I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to do things, make films that were more documentary. And

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<v Speaker 2>so Grand Funk Railroad had just released an album called Phoenix,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I asked josh to speak with ABC about

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<v Speaker 2>me doing a portion of the show at Phoenix House

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<v Speaker 2>with Grand Funk Railroad, and they approved that, and I

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<v Speaker 2>met Andy Cavalieri, who had just started managing them because

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<v Speaker 2>they had left their manager, Terry Knight. So I have

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<v Speaker 2>had a certain amount of experience in marketing and publicity.

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<v Speaker 2>In sixty nine, I did that at Elektra Records, and

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<v Speaker 2>I made films for them, and I made radio spots,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, I understood from the record label aspect

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<v Speaker 2>what needed to be on to sell a record. And

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<v Speaker 2>so Andy was really handsome, and I was tired of ABC,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'd saved up enough money that I said to

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<v Speaker 2>Andy that I had this idea for Grand Funk, and

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<v Speaker 2>if he could get them to do everything that I say,

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<v Speaker 2>that they'd have a number one hit record in all

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<v Speaker 2>the trains three trades that were at the time, Record World,

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<v Speaker 2>cash Box, and Billboard, and they'd never had a hit single.

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<v Speaker 2>So and I was willing to do it for nothing

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<v Speaker 2>except when when I said they would get a number

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<v Speaker 2>one hit, I wanted to be the co manager and

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<v Speaker 2>Andy had really no experience in marketing or anything outside

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<v Speaker 2>of really setting up tours. So I also needed Andy

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<v Speaker 2>because having worked in the music industry even in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>sixty nine, I was very clear that in order to

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<v Speaker 2>get things done, being female was not going to be

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<v Speaker 2>as strong as having a guy go in there and

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<v Speaker 2>get the budgets and what's needed to make things happen.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was very fortunate to that Grand Funk with

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<v Speaker 2>Phoenix had failed so badly that they were open to

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<v Speaker 2>everything that I wanted to do. And the first thing

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to do was have them write a song

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<v Speaker 2>called We're an American band.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's slow down the story for a second. You get

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<v Speaker 1>involved with Grand Funk, not only are they on the

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<v Speaker 1>downside of their career, this is a band that was

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<v Speaker 1>hated by critics. It was a meat potatoes band from

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<v Speaker 1>day one. You're someone who worked at Electra Records Grand

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<v Speaker 1>Funk Railroad. Did you say, well, this is a way

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<v Speaker 1>for me to get in. Were you turned off by

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of music? What do you think?

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<v Speaker 2>If anything, I didn't really think much about their music.

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<v Speaker 2>What I thought was that they were the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>band that basically blue collar workers and a certain economic

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<v Speaker 2>strata of people would save up their money to come

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<v Speaker 2>hear them play. And I knew that strata. I'm from

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<v Speaker 2>Michigan like they are. They're from Flint, and I'm from

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<v Speaker 2>inner city Detroit, so I felt like I knew who

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<v Speaker 2>their audience was. And I felt that Mark Farner was

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<v Speaker 2>a really good guitar player with an amazing voice. But

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<v Speaker 2>I was not, and there were songs that I liked,

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<v Speaker 2>but that isn't what kind of motivated me to really

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<v Speaker 2>dedicate my life to try to making them number one.

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<v Speaker 2>It was that Andy was so handsome and I was

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<v Speaker 2>in love with him and wanting to be around him

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<v Speaker 2>all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, the only Cavalier I know is Felix from the Rascals,

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<v Speaker 1>Now I know, now, I never heard of this guy.

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<v Speaker 1>Who was This guy?

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<v Speaker 2>Andy had been their tour manager and he was and

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<v Speaker 2>he also managed me when I was will Powers, I

0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:49.040
<v Speaker 2>needed to have a manager, but unfortunately Andy uh Andy

0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:54.480
<v Speaker 2>passed away during the recording of my album, and I

0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.040
<v Speaker 2>worked with Andy and Grand Funk for a number of

0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:03.879
<v Speaker 2>years and uh over those years, as they became very successful,

0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:10.359
<v Speaker 2>Don Brewer really thought he knew better than me and

0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:15.880
<v Speaker 2>wanted to do things, wanted the producer that he wanted,

0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.760
<v Speaker 2>and I just I couldn't go along with it, so

0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:25.040
<v Speaker 2>I walked away.

0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Let's go back. So you're saying it was one hundred

0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.520
<v Speaker 1>percent your idea to write a song we're an American band.

0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely. The idea behind it was that I would

0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.960
<v Speaker 2>create a certain kind of stage show. I would make

0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:47.000
<v Speaker 2>videos that films actually that we could send out to

0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.960
<v Speaker 2>army bases across the world, that if they just wrote

0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.120
<v Speaker 2>a song, a simple song, we're an American band. At

0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.840
<v Speaker 2>that time, all the English bands were taking over, and

0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.840
<v Speaker 2>I thought that gives them. They wrote the Mark actually

0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.640
<v Speaker 2>wrote the song, not Donnie. Donnie added to it, but Mark,

0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:12.720
<v Speaker 2>being generous, gave him the publishing for it. But it's

0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:18.560
<v Speaker 2>really Mark Farman. And it was also my idea not

0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.200
<v Speaker 2>only were an American band, but because they were hated,

0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.719
<v Speaker 2>as you pointed out so much by the press and

0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:30.160
<v Speaker 2>disrespected and nobody really wanted to hear or talk about Grandpak.

0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.520
<v Speaker 2>They were sick of the Terry Knight lawsuit. So I

0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.439
<v Speaker 2>knew that Todd Rungdren, who was a friend of mine,

0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.440
<v Speaker 2>needed money because this new TV studio that he had

0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.960
<v Speaker 2>built was not making any money. And I knew that

0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the press at that time thought, basically Todd is God.

0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.280
<v Speaker 2>He was an artist that everyone respected and had integrity.

0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:01.159
<v Speaker 2>So I knew that press wise, you know that they

0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.840
<v Speaker 2>would respond going to Todd Rundgren and grand Funk. You

0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:07.199
<v Speaker 2>know that makes no sense. We have to take a

0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.639
<v Speaker 2>look at this. So it was really it wasn't that

0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.040
<v Speaker 2>brilliant it just came out of me. You know, it

0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:15.560
<v Speaker 2>seemed common sense.

0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:18.399
<v Speaker 1>Well, I actually would say it was brilliant because it

0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.560
<v Speaker 1>was also a great track, but a little bit slower.

0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:22.320
<v Speaker 1>You come up with the idea.

0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:23.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, I didn't write the track.

0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.399
<v Speaker 1>And I know, but I'm going there. You come up

0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.159
<v Speaker 1>with the idea, how is it presented to the band,

0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.399
<v Speaker 1>what is their reaction? And how long until they write

0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:32.840
<v Speaker 1>the song?

0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh, the song was done like right away, and I

0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.720
<v Speaker 2>didn't go to the band. Andy made it very clear

0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:44.240
<v Speaker 2>to me that it would be much better if everything

0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 2>went through him the band. There was a lot of

0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:54.520
<v Speaker 2>especially with Donnie. People don't want to listen to a

0:20:54.640 --> 0:21:03.800
<v Speaker 2>quote unquote girl. You know, their macho, and so Andy would.

0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.879
<v Speaker 2>Andy had never and neither had the band ever heard it.

0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:13.560
<v Speaker 2>Even Grant Todd Runggren, they didn't know anything. But Andy

0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:18.720
<v Speaker 2>would go and present it to them and convince them

0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:20.679
<v Speaker 2>that they should do it. And that was fine with me.

0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.000
<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to do the work. I didn't care about,

0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:27.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, anything else. I didn't care if Andy called

0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:31.280
<v Speaker 2>me a publicist or the marketer or whatever they wanted

0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.359
<v Speaker 2>to do. I just wanted to manifest my ideas. I

0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:39.200
<v Speaker 2>was driven to do that, and I had a whole

0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.640
<v Speaker 2>plan in place where there was a lighting guy named

0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:47.600
<v Speaker 2>Jack Calmys, who I designed like an American flag backdrop.

0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:50.560
<v Speaker 2>You know. I had this whole idea for what it

0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.520
<v Speaker 2>would be and what the show would be and how

0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.200
<v Speaker 2>when people buy their tickets after you know, a hard

0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.399
<v Speaker 2>week at work. This was going to be a party.

0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:05.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, this was a celebration of America and a party.

0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:09.560
<v Speaker 2>You know. I'm I'm from the city that, like you know,

0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:14.920
<v Speaker 2>is is known for cars much less for soul music,

0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:20.800
<v Speaker 2>and uh, you know, it's a It's America. So I

0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.320
<v Speaker 2>guess that's how it happened. But I also felt it

0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:30.879
<v Speaker 2>happened because I thought there were just so many English

0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:37.440
<v Speaker 2>bands getting attention and everyone wanted to wear velvet jackets

0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:43.280
<v Speaker 2>and you know, be like the English rockers. So it

0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:49.000
<v Speaker 2>was a simple idea. But then when when they made

0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:53.120
<v Speaker 2>a demo of the song and I listened to it

0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:57.800
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, that's it, you know, Connie from

0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:02.320
<v Speaker 2>Little Rock, the whole deal I went perfect. So I

0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.840
<v Speaker 2>could just run with all the marketing things, you know,

0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:10.760
<v Speaker 2>getting taking pictures and I wasn't really a photographer. I mean,

0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:14.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm still I think I'm a conceptualist. I don't think

0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:17.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm a photographer. But I set up things because I

0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:20.960
<v Speaker 2>needed to get them major press where I would have

0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Mark give blood at the Red Cross and I would

0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:27.200
<v Speaker 2>take pictures of it, you know, because I really felt

0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:32.000
<v Speaker 2>that if you could hand the press stories that had

0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:37.160
<v Speaker 2>some angle and need on it and good pictures, they'd

0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:42.359
<v Speaker 2>run it. And they did so that and I think,

0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:46.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, we did a stage show that for its

0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:53.119
<v Speaker 2>time was hadn't really been done before. I went to

0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.720
<v Speaker 2>the Library of Congress in DC and I got all

0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:01.560
<v Speaker 2>the stock footage of a train coming at you. So

0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:05.919
<v Speaker 2>how the show opened as the audience came in was

0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:10.879
<v Speaker 2>this train. I had a film a screen come down.

0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:14.879
<v Speaker 2>We carried movie projectors with us on tour, and you know,

0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:19.280
<v Speaker 2>I would we'd project this train coming right at the

0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:24.320
<v Speaker 2>audience and then bam they hit the stage. So those

0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:28.040
<v Speaker 2>were you know, I was so excited seeing all my

0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 2>ideas manifested that that was actually the best reward. And

0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:38.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, thank god they did have number one in

0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:43.280
<v Speaker 2>all three traits. Okay, Todd, Right, I look back now

0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 2>and I think I had a.

0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:47.360
<v Speaker 1>Lot of I think that's but we'll get to that

0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:50.560
<v Speaker 1>that's your whole career. I discussed it with Todd. Todd

0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.800
<v Speaker 1>told me that because Tod is, you know, uber talented,

0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:56.840
<v Speaker 1>he can write the songs, play them record. He said,

0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:59.760
<v Speaker 1>the song was completely done when it came to him,

0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:01.679
<v Speaker 1>all record it.

0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:05.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And that's what I told him. Because Todd didn't

0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:07.639
<v Speaker 2>want to do it and he needed money, and I

0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:09.840
<v Speaker 2>was the one who hired him, and I had to

0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:13.399
<v Speaker 2>convince him because we both lived up We had a

0:25:13.400 --> 0:25:17.320
<v Speaker 2>place up in Woodstock, and Todd it gets real cold

0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:19.560
<v Speaker 2>in the winter. So I said, look, you'll go to

0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Criteria in Miami. It's a great studio. Ten days, it's warm.

0:25:24.560 --> 0:25:27.760
<v Speaker 2>You're going to get one hundred thousand dollars for ten days.

0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:33.560
<v Speaker 2>And I knew that his sound wouldn't interfear. I really

0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.800
<v Speaker 2>felt that, even though he was very different than the

0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:41.360
<v Speaker 2>guys in Grandfa because a lot of artists who work

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:51.359
<v Speaker 2>with Todd have problems with Todd because he's very He's

0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:55.120
<v Speaker 2>doing it Todd's way, but Todd was he was going

0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:57.399
<v Speaker 2>to do the best he could do. But he was

0:25:57.640 --> 0:26:04.440
<v Speaker 2>really there as a great engineer. But he also mixes

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:10.919
<v Speaker 2>amazing and he's you know, I just intuitively felt it

0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:13.800
<v Speaker 2>was right for both grand Funk and for Todd.

0:26:14.040 --> 0:26:15.040
<v Speaker 1>How did you meet Todd?

0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:19.640
<v Speaker 2>When I came to One of the things that I do,

0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.639
<v Speaker 2>as I mentioned, I was will powers Is. I wrote

0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:27.320
<v Speaker 2>songs and sang and I went to do some work

0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:31.399
<v Speaker 2>when they were just building out the studio at Secret Sound,

0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:35.439
<v Speaker 2>and Todd was under the board. He was basically building

0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:40.320
<v Speaker 2>the board when I came in and we met and

0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:42.800
<v Speaker 2>we became really good friends.

0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:48.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're from Michigan. How do you get from Michigan

0:26:48.720 --> 0:26:49.520
<v Speaker 1>to New York.

0:26:51.200 --> 0:26:59.560
<v Speaker 2>By playing oh a being? You know you? I had

0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:05.800
<v Speaker 2>gone onto La for a minute, and I didn't feel

0:27:05.840 --> 0:27:11.160
<v Speaker 2>that was very mean. And the second I well, first

0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:14.320
<v Speaker 2>of all, I had already had experiences in New York.

0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:17.320
<v Speaker 2>When I was in college. I had a band called

0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:21.000
<v Speaker 2>The Walking Wounded, and we used to go to New

0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:25.240
<v Speaker 2>York to play or to open for certain people a cafe,

0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:29.760
<v Speaker 2>wa and other places. And my sister is a painter

0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:34.560
<v Speaker 2>and by night she was a waitress at Maxis Kansas City,

0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:38.359
<v Speaker 2>so you know, I and she was also John Cale's

0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:43.040
<v Speaker 2>girlfriend who was in the Velvet Underground, So you know,

0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:48.240
<v Speaker 2>I felt really comfortable in New York. It was far

0:27:48.400 --> 0:27:53.480
<v Speaker 2>more my cup of tea. I like to work and

0:27:53.600 --> 0:27:58.160
<v Speaker 2>make things, and I like having friends who are artists,

0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:04.480
<v Speaker 2>so you know, it definitely felt It's always felt like home.

0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:07.080
<v Speaker 1>So how does a nice Jewish girl end up in

0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:08.200
<v Speaker 1>Nashville today?

0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:19.439
<v Speaker 2>By mistake? I asked myself that quite often, and I

0:28:19.560 --> 0:28:23.639
<v Speaker 2>leave here probably at least once a month for a

0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:28.200
<v Speaker 2>week to go to New York, if not more. I'm

0:28:28.280 --> 0:28:31.359
<v Speaker 2>still trying to get used to the South. I have

0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:34.919
<v Speaker 2>a thing that I believe in called the pattern interrupt

0:28:35.320 --> 0:28:39.120
<v Speaker 2>and that's where you put yourself in positions that are

0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:42.200
<v Speaker 2>really uncomfortable to you, that don't feel right to you,

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:49.800
<v Speaker 2>and that should shake up your creativity. And so the

0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:55.840
<v Speaker 2>move to Nashville was in part because of that, and

0:28:55.960 --> 0:29:00.880
<v Speaker 2>also moving to Nashville provided me the oppert tunity to

0:29:01.000 --> 0:29:07.880
<v Speaker 2>have the kind of workspace that I've always wanted. I

0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:13.080
<v Speaker 2>need at least like eight thousand square feet, so you know,

0:29:13.160 --> 0:29:16.719
<v Speaker 2>that's that's like i'd be. I'd be working for the

0:29:16.760 --> 0:29:20.040
<v Speaker 2>bank if I was in New York, you know, and

0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:25.560
<v Speaker 2>in LA with taxes, that wasn't really feasible. Although as

0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:29.720
<v Speaker 2>you get older the weather seems to be nice, but

0:29:30.080 --> 0:29:34.000
<v Speaker 2>it did you know, I am scared by fires and earthquakes.

0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:41.600
<v Speaker 2>So you know, so I'm trying this. We'll see.

0:29:41.720 --> 0:29:45.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So how many years have you been in Nashville? Uh?

0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:50.240
<v Speaker 2>Five? But I would say the first two years we

0:29:50.240 --> 0:29:57.120
<v Speaker 2>weren't here that much. Who we my husband denied? Okay, yeah, and.

0:29:57.240 --> 0:29:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Your husband all? I mean, I don't know anything about

0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:01.000
<v Speaker 1>the husband. Long you've been married.

0:30:02.320 --> 0:30:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Twenty three or four years?

0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:06.200
<v Speaker 1>And what is he?

0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Not quite what is February nineteen ninety nine?

0:30:09.600 --> 0:30:10.760
<v Speaker 1>And what does he do all day?

0:30:13.160 --> 0:30:16.480
<v Speaker 2>He says, And he plays his guitar, he reads books,

0:30:17.200 --> 0:30:21.920
<v Speaker 2>he sculpts in the basement where his woodwork room is.

0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:25.880
<v Speaker 2>He only gets a little spot in the workspace. I

0:30:25.960 --> 0:30:32.400
<v Speaker 2>get all the big stuff. And he was an architect,

0:30:32.600 --> 0:30:37.840
<v Speaker 2>so he designed our house. And you know, it's really

0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:43.160
<v Speaker 2>made for the way that we want to live. And

0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:44.640
<v Speaker 2>that's a real pleasure.

0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:47.760
<v Speaker 1>You're talking about the eight thousand square feet. Are the

0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:50.840
<v Speaker 1>eight thousand square feet in your house? Or is that

0:30:50.920 --> 0:30:55.720
<v Speaker 1>a separate location all in my house? How much property

0:30:55.760 --> 0:30:56.160
<v Speaker 1>do you have?

0:30:57.600 --> 0:30:58.840
<v Speaker 2>Two acres?

0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:02.560
<v Speaker 1>So the workspace is that part of the house or

0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:03.440
<v Speaker 1>a separate building?

0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:07.920
<v Speaker 2>No? That what we did here because I wanted it

0:31:07.960 --> 0:31:12.440
<v Speaker 2>to be all in one work live, so most of it,

0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:16.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, we live in maybe like fifteen hundred square

0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:18.560
<v Speaker 2>feet of the eight thousand square feet.

0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:21.200
<v Speaker 1>And what is in the rest of the space, the

0:31:21.240 --> 0:31:23.520
<v Speaker 1>other sixty five hundred square feet.

0:31:25.200 --> 0:31:27.840
<v Speaker 2>You got to come and visit. I have a print

0:31:28.000 --> 0:31:33.360
<v Speaker 2>studio where I make large scale prints. I have a

0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:38.120
<v Speaker 2>paint studio as I'm a painter. I have a photo studio.

0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 2>I have a gallery. It's a private gallery. I used

0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:48.760
<v Speaker 2>to have an actual brick and mortar gallery in Colorado,

0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:52.680
<v Speaker 2>so in the house. We made a private gallery online.

0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:56.600
<v Speaker 2>It's called rock and Roll Photo Gallery dot Com. And

0:31:56.680 --> 0:32:01.840
<v Speaker 2>it's not just my work, it's the world of uh,

0:32:02.440 --> 0:32:08.320
<v Speaker 2>A lot of different photographers who who I personally think,

0:32:08.840 --> 0:32:13.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, that collecting their work is a value. We had.

0:32:14.080 --> 0:32:17.800
<v Speaker 2>We have Terry O'Neill, you know, we had Terry before

0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:24.000
<v Speaker 2>he passed, Gary Mankowitz, A lot of individuals who have

0:32:24.520 --> 0:32:29.720
<v Speaker 2>made uh great images. Uh. So it's not just about

0:32:29.840 --> 0:32:34.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, Lynn Goldsmith. But we made it private because

0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:38.760
<v Speaker 2>I just really want to have people come who truly

0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:39.720
<v Speaker 2>want to collect.

0:32:41.320 --> 0:32:47.040
<v Speaker 1>So how does a rock and roller meet an architect? Oh?

0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:52.880
<v Speaker 2>He my husband designed and built about five buildings at

0:32:52.960 --> 0:33:02.640
<v Speaker 2>least homes recording studio uh Art building a home in

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:08.240
<v Speaker 2>Seattle for the recording artist Steve Miller. And Steve was

0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Steve is a really is a close friend of mine.

0:33:12.960 --> 0:33:15.640
<v Speaker 2>He and his wife at the time, and I would

0:33:16.120 --> 0:33:19.160
<v Speaker 2>They lived in sun Valence, and so I would go

0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:25.160
<v Speaker 2>to visit Steve and Kim for holidays and whatever, and

0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:26.520
<v Speaker 2>that's how I met Sid.

0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:31.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, and how did you ultimately decide to get married

0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:36.120
<v Speaker 1>around age fifty, you know, as opposed to the previous

0:33:36.400 --> 0:33:39.600
<v Speaker 1>period of eligibility of thirty years.

0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:42.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I knew that I didn't want to get married

0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:49.520
<v Speaker 2>until I was fifty. I really work was always number

0:33:49.560 --> 0:33:58.000
<v Speaker 2>one for me. And most men who want to get

0:33:58.040 --> 0:34:03.760
<v Speaker 2>married want to have children, and they want you to

0:34:03.800 --> 0:34:07.440
<v Speaker 2>be there for them. And that's wonderful, you know, I'm

0:34:07.520 --> 0:34:12.520
<v Speaker 2>all for it. But I wanted to really make my

0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:17.600
<v Speaker 2>focus on my work. And I didn't think that being

0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:20.560
<v Speaker 2>a mother and a wife that I could be a

0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:25.560
<v Speaker 2>good one if I had that drive that I had

0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:29.040
<v Speaker 2>work wise, so I made a choice.

0:34:29.320 --> 0:34:31.920
<v Speaker 1>And did you ever have the urge to have children?

0:34:33.719 --> 0:34:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Sure, but then I would think about, you know,

0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:47.480
<v Speaker 2>the reality of being a responsible, good parent, and I

0:34:48.320 --> 0:34:51.880
<v Speaker 2>don't want to mess up another human being, you know,

0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:57.279
<v Speaker 2>I wanted, I would like to, and I always sort

0:34:57.280 --> 0:35:01.759
<v Speaker 2>of thought that the world was not going to be

0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:08.200
<v Speaker 2>a great place for what would be my grandchildren or

0:35:08.280 --> 0:35:14.960
<v Speaker 2>great grandchildren. I've always felt that we're headed for a

0:35:15.160 --> 0:35:19.840
<v Speaker 2>very hard time. And I'm very grateful that I lived

0:35:19.880 --> 0:35:22.160
<v Speaker 2>when I did and I lived the way that I did.

0:35:22.440 --> 0:35:25.319
<v Speaker 2>But I made up my mind long ago that I

0:35:25.320 --> 0:35:28.759
<v Speaker 2>would get married when I was fifty, and that's what

0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:29.200
<v Speaker 2>I did.

0:35:30.400 --> 0:35:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're someone who's had quite a career, but you

0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:38.840
<v Speaker 1>came of age during the mis era, Women's liberation. The

0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:42.359
<v Speaker 1>Ultimately we have Cheryl Samberg telling you to lean in

0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:45.080
<v Speaker 1>and then other people saying you can have it all.

0:35:45.520 --> 0:35:46.719
<v Speaker 1>What's your take on all that?

0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, maybe some people can. You know, I can't really

0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:58.160
<v Speaker 2>answer for everyone. I just know what I'm capable of

0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:03.879
<v Speaker 2>or feel comfortable with, and I really didn't think that

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:07.680
<v Speaker 2>I could be I thought I had to make a

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:11.880
<v Speaker 2>choice be a good mother or you know, do my work,

0:36:13.440 --> 0:36:17.719
<v Speaker 2>and that I couldn't do both. There are people who

0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:21.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure think they can and they can have it all,

0:36:21.480 --> 0:36:26.120
<v Speaker 2>and maybe they can, but that I knew, very I

0:36:26.200 --> 0:36:27.120
<v Speaker 2>knew that wasn't me.

0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:33.440
<v Speaker 1>Does your sister have children? No, so both you and

0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:35.840
<v Speaker 1>your sister don't have children. You think that has anything

0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:37.799
<v Speaker 1>to do with your upbringing?

0:36:40.400 --> 0:36:43.879
<v Speaker 2>Not really. My mother was a single working mother, but

0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:50.960
<v Speaker 2>she did marry when I was fourteen fifteen. My sister

0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:54.279
<v Speaker 2>wanted to have kids, and there was a period of

0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:58.279
<v Speaker 2>time where we even more so her. We went over

0:36:58.360 --> 0:37:04.680
<v Speaker 2>to bet and adopt, did foster parented some children, and

0:37:04.719 --> 0:37:07.920
<v Speaker 2>that just showed me, and I think has showed her

0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:19.440
<v Speaker 2>quite clearly that you know, parenting isn't for everybody. We tried.

0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, in your book, you say your sister is older,

0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:27.239
<v Speaker 1>you say she is the pretty one, et cetera. Now,

0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:29.640
<v Speaker 1>when I moved to Los Angeles, my sister was going

0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:31.839
<v Speaker 1>to graduate school here. It's so I could stay with

0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:34.800
<v Speaker 1>her a little bit. To what degree having an older

0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:39.759
<v Speaker 1>sister or an entree help you to get established?

0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh? I think it helped me a lot. My sister

0:37:47.200 --> 0:37:50.160
<v Speaker 2>she's very different than me, but you know, she was

0:37:50.840 --> 0:37:55.799
<v Speaker 2>friends with people like I mean, that's how I met

0:37:55.800 --> 0:37:59.160
<v Speaker 2>Carol King James Taylor. That was when she lived in

0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:04.319
<v Speaker 2>LA She designed clothes for a period of time for

0:38:04.440 --> 0:38:12.320
<v Speaker 2>a lot of bands, just her artistic sensibilities have always

0:38:13.239 --> 0:38:20.319
<v Speaker 2>been really influential in my life.

0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:24.680
<v Speaker 1>So what is about her that she ends up being

0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:27.520
<v Speaker 1>in all these spots. She must have something, some magic,

0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:28.600
<v Speaker 1>some blitz with something.

0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:32.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, she was really she was talented, she was pretty,

0:38:33.480 --> 0:38:41.440
<v Speaker 2>she was she was beneficial in two musical groups in

0:38:41.840 --> 0:38:48.920
<v Speaker 2>how she dressed them. So, you know, it was a

0:38:48.960 --> 0:38:58.880
<v Speaker 2>smaller world then, and I just think that people who

0:38:59.560 --> 0:39:05.960
<v Speaker 2>people who are attractive have an easier time than being

0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:09.959
<v Speaker 2>brought into the inner circle, so to speak, then those

0:39:10.000 --> 0:39:13.759
<v Speaker 2>who aren't. It's just a fact of life. You know.

0:39:14.280 --> 0:39:18.080
<v Speaker 2>We all have our pluses and minuses. And so there

0:39:18.080 --> 0:39:21.960
<v Speaker 2>are people who let's say, are overweight or of a

0:39:22.040 --> 0:39:26.960
<v Speaker 2>body type that isn't considered Well today it's different, but

0:39:27.440 --> 0:39:30.759
<v Speaker 2>let's say back then, but then they might have been

0:39:30.800 --> 0:39:34.600
<v Speaker 2>really funny and people wanted them around because they're really funny,

0:39:35.360 --> 0:39:39.000
<v Speaker 2>or they're really smart and they're well read and they

0:39:39.080 --> 0:39:43.200
<v Speaker 2>inspire you because of it. So, you know, my sister

0:39:43.239 --> 0:39:47.080
<v Speaker 2>and I were always very much independent artists, and I

0:39:47.120 --> 0:39:51.359
<v Speaker 2>think that inspired some people to want to hang with

0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:58.880
<v Speaker 2>us and some people not. You know, I can really

0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:01.840
<v Speaker 2>only answer, you know for me.

0:40:08.960 --> 0:40:12.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, we're doing a zoom but this is not visible

0:40:12.880 --> 0:40:16.200
<v Speaker 1>to my audience, but there are pictures online and you

0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:21.839
<v Speaker 1>let your hair go white. How big a decision was that, Well,

0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:22.680
<v Speaker 1>it's a bit.

0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:28.760
<v Speaker 2>It continues to be a decision. I can clearly tell

0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:36.839
<v Speaker 2>when I'm not as accepted as I might be. If

0:40:36.880 --> 0:40:45.000
<v Speaker 2>I had my long, dark hair. During COVID, my hair

0:40:45.080 --> 0:40:51.400
<v Speaker 2>started coming in white, and I thought, whoa, I have

0:40:51.520 --> 0:40:53.880
<v Speaker 2>white hair. I don't have gray hair. I've got like

0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:58.080
<v Speaker 2>white hair. I thought that'd be fun to see, so

0:40:58.360 --> 0:41:03.840
<v Speaker 2>I let it grow out, like why diet during COVID?

0:41:04.840 --> 0:41:11.040
<v Speaker 2>And then I decided that like, this is who I am,

0:41:12.120 --> 0:41:17.200
<v Speaker 2>and I don't want to keep dyeing my hair or

0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:21.480
<v Speaker 2>trying to be young. And if in moments I do,

0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:26.840
<v Speaker 2>I can put on a wig. So I wear wigs

0:41:27.040 --> 0:41:31.000
<v Speaker 2>and if I feel that way, and if I don't,

0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:33.160
<v Speaker 2>I have my white hair. Yeah.

0:41:33.360 --> 0:41:36.719
<v Speaker 1>Do people treat someone differently if they have white.

0:41:36.440 --> 0:41:41.719
<v Speaker 2>Hair, Well, I guess it depends on your age. When

0:41:41.800 --> 0:41:45.799
<v Speaker 2>Gaga had white hair, they didn't. They still treated her

0:41:45.840 --> 0:41:50.560
<v Speaker 2>as Gaga. I think that you know, when you're my age,

0:41:50.760 --> 0:41:55.879
<v Speaker 2>which I'm seventy five, and you have white hair, they're

0:41:56.040 --> 0:42:02.960
<v Speaker 2>going to experience you differently. I mean I didn't really

0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:06.920
<v Speaker 2>know that people thought I was maybe fifty when I

0:42:06.960 --> 0:42:10.520
<v Speaker 2>was seventy because I had dark hair, you know, you

0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:17.759
<v Speaker 2>were a hat And yeah they do, but I don't

0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:18.399
<v Speaker 2>really care.

0:42:20.000 --> 0:42:24.960
<v Speaker 1>And what about other ways to keep young? Plastic surgery, liposuction,

0:42:25.040 --> 0:42:27.799
<v Speaker 1>et cetera. Are those things you have a take on.

0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:32.839
<v Speaker 2>Well, maybe if I didn't have a loving husband, you know,

0:42:33.760 --> 0:42:39.400
<v Speaker 2>and I thought I might be more attractive, maybe that

0:42:39.560 --> 0:42:47.120
<v Speaker 2>would influence me. But I really feel like I want

0:42:47.160 --> 0:42:52.359
<v Speaker 2>to see myself age. I don't really want to have

0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:58.960
<v Speaker 2>one of those faces with lips that you know have

0:42:59.080 --> 0:43:05.560
<v Speaker 2>been injected number of times or you know, I'm I'm

0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:10.640
<v Speaker 2>I just want to be I'm pretty grateful, you know,

0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:16.920
<v Speaker 2>for what I have, and I don't really care anymore.

0:43:18.680 --> 0:43:21.479
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes I do. I mean I say I don't really care,

0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:26.760
<v Speaker 2>but you know, sometimes I do. I feel like, Oh,

0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:30.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm not being invited or oh I'm not included because

0:43:30.520 --> 0:43:31.480
<v Speaker 2>they think I'm old.

0:43:32.920 --> 0:43:36.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, how about the reverse? You know, this is more

0:43:36.560 --> 0:43:41.520
<v Speaker 1>psychological than appearance. Are you ever with younger people and say, well,

0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:43.200
<v Speaker 1>maybe I don't belong here anymore?

0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Absolutely, I'm with older people and I say maybe

0:43:51.000 --> 0:43:58.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't belong here anymore. I I just am not

0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:04.920
<v Speaker 2>interested for the most part in the things that seem

0:44:05.040 --> 0:44:12.160
<v Speaker 2>to motivate, but I am interested in I have younger friends,

0:44:12.200 --> 0:44:15.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, some that are in their thirties, some in

0:44:15.160 --> 0:44:24.960
<v Speaker 2>their forties, some in their fifties, and generally they you know,

0:44:25.760 --> 0:44:30.120
<v Speaker 2>they I guess they think that I offer them some

0:44:30.320 --> 0:44:34.719
<v Speaker 2>kind of knowledge from the life that I've lived, so

0:44:34.840 --> 0:44:40.600
<v Speaker 2>they want they want to be friends with me. And

0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:47.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, but that word friend can take a kind

0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:50.200
<v Speaker 2>of wide definition or a very narrow one. You know,

0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:53.399
<v Speaker 2>there are people for me that you know, I've known

0:44:53.640 --> 0:44:59.560
<v Speaker 2>for fifty years or more and I've had a number

0:44:59.640 --> 0:45:05.800
<v Speaker 2>of experiences with them over our lifetimes, and that's really

0:45:06.080 --> 0:45:11.120
<v Speaker 2>feels very much like a bonded friend, and you can't

0:45:11.200 --> 0:45:15.359
<v Speaker 2>really have that with a new friend. So it's more

0:45:15.400 --> 0:45:19.239
<v Speaker 2>about the length of time that you've known someone, you know,

0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:23.040
<v Speaker 2>the experiences that you had with them. I have a

0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:28.960
<v Speaker 2>friend Nancy, who we were partners at Life magazine. She

0:45:29.040 --> 0:45:32.720
<v Speaker 2>was the writer, I was the photographer, and we would,

0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:36.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, do stories together, and the experiences that we

0:45:36.520 --> 0:45:39.960
<v Speaker 2>had on the road with Tony Robbins or when we

0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:43.920
<v Speaker 2>did Michael Jackson, I mean, part of the reason I

0:45:44.120 --> 0:45:48.920
<v Speaker 2>so value my relationship with Nancy is because only she,

0:45:48.920 --> 0:45:51.600
<v Speaker 2>She's the only one on the planet, you know, other

0:45:51.680 --> 0:45:57.359
<v Speaker 2>than me, that I can really share that experience with,

0:45:58.000 --> 0:46:03.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, because we were there together. So, you know, friends,

0:46:04.360 --> 0:46:08.040
<v Speaker 2>I definitely need them, and I like to have some

0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:12.320
<v Speaker 2>new friends, but having my old friends is what really

0:46:13.600 --> 0:46:15.480
<v Speaker 2>makes me feel connected.

0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:19.880
<v Speaker 1>Let's say, because you live in Nashville, which is a

0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:24.239
<v Speaker 1>music city, Let's say, okay I called you up, or

0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:27.240
<v Speaker 1>no one calls I emailed. Let's go to Bridgestone Arena

0:46:27.719 --> 0:46:30.960
<v Speaker 1>to see a relatively new act, or go to a

0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:34.680
<v Speaker 1>club to see a holy new act. What would you say,

0:46:35.640 --> 0:46:36.000
<v Speaker 1>go to.

0:46:35.960 --> 0:46:38.799
<v Speaker 2>A club for a holy new act. I got asked

0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:42.480
<v Speaker 2>the other night go to a club with a holy

0:46:42.600 --> 0:46:46.520
<v Speaker 2>new act. I got asked the other night to go

0:46:46.560 --> 0:46:49.880
<v Speaker 2>to bridge Stone Arena by a friend of mine who's

0:46:50.000 --> 0:46:55.040
<v Speaker 2>probably about forty five maybe at most will and he's

0:46:55.080 --> 0:46:57.560
<v Speaker 2>a Fish fan. And he said, I have a ticket,

0:46:57.680 --> 0:46:59.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, will you come with me to bridge Stone

0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:05.319
<v Speaker 2>Arena Sea Fish. I said, absolutely not. I'd rather go

0:47:05.440 --> 0:47:11.480
<v Speaker 2>see Joe Blow at some place you know, like Grimey's

0:47:11.600 --> 0:47:15.840
<v Speaker 2>or whatever that holds twenty people. That to me is fun.

0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:18.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, let me change a little bit. How hard is

0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:20.879
<v Speaker 1>it to get you out of the house to do

0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:22.879
<v Speaker 1>these things where you made your name.

0:47:24.080 --> 0:47:27.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's very funny. That's a really good question. It's

0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:30.719
<v Speaker 2>real hard to get me out of the house. It's

0:47:30.800 --> 0:47:33.880
<v Speaker 2>not if we're well in New York for me to

0:47:33.960 --> 0:47:37.000
<v Speaker 2>do other things, not to like go to Madison Square

0:47:37.040 --> 0:47:40.439
<v Speaker 2>Garden or you know, things like that. But I get

0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:44.640
<v Speaker 2>out of the house a lot there. But here, no,

0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.839
<v Speaker 2>I like to do my work all day and then

0:47:49.480 --> 0:47:55.759
<v Speaker 2>either find some great documentary or some TV show to

0:47:55.800 --> 0:48:03.359
<v Speaker 2>binge you know morning news. Uh, that to me is

0:48:04.560 --> 0:48:09.560
<v Speaker 2>heavenly going out and going I think here it's about

0:48:09.560 --> 0:48:13.880
<v Speaker 2>the driving and the parking, because I do go out

0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:20.160
<v Speaker 2>in Colorado and in uh in New York.

0:48:20.840 --> 0:48:24.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let me drill down a little bit further. To

0:48:24.520 --> 0:48:27.719
<v Speaker 1>what degree would you not want to go because you said,

0:48:27.840 --> 0:48:28.880
<v Speaker 1>been there, done that?

0:48:30.239 --> 0:48:37.279
<v Speaker 2>Oh a lot, really a lot. And now what's interesting

0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:46.800
<v Speaker 2>for me is it's happening in in photographing people who

0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:51.799
<v Speaker 2>I I don't want to do more retouching work I

0:48:51.840 --> 0:48:55.399
<v Speaker 2>don't want to do. I don't want to do it.

0:48:55.640 --> 0:48:59.960
<v Speaker 2>You know. I got a call from Alice Cooper's people

0:49:00.440 --> 0:49:04.560
<v Speaker 2>because Alice was here in Nashville recently. This is before

0:49:04.640 --> 0:49:09.279
<v Speaker 2>this album that just came out came out, and they

0:49:09.440 --> 0:49:13.560
<v Speaker 2>wanted me to do a variety of things the band here, this, there,

0:49:14.160 --> 0:49:20.719
<v Speaker 2>like Nah, been there, done that. Not interested. So in

0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:27.040
<v Speaker 2>some way it feels odd to me that I just

0:49:27.239 --> 0:49:33.319
<v Speaker 2>don't have that drive anymore, you know. But if it

0:49:33.400 --> 0:49:41.479
<v Speaker 2>was about photographing someone who's of who I want to meet,

0:49:41.560 --> 0:49:45.360
<v Speaker 2>that's of interest and they don't have to be in music,

0:49:46.440 --> 0:49:49.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm more likely to want to do it. But for

0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:53.960
<v Speaker 2>the most part, everything in celebrity portraiture in the music

0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:58.920
<v Speaker 2>world also requires a lot of time spent in front

0:49:58.920 --> 0:50:03.000
<v Speaker 2>of the computer making people look like what they want

0:50:03.120 --> 0:50:08.920
<v Speaker 2>other people to think they look like. And it just

0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:11.280
<v Speaker 2>doesn't interest me at all.

0:50:11.719 --> 0:50:16.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Okay, and then you mentioned Colorado. How long were

0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:20.160
<v Speaker 1>you living in Aspen twenty years?

0:50:20.560 --> 0:50:21.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I kept New York.

0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:24.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's just talk Colorado. How did you end up

0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:25.080
<v Speaker 1>in Aspen?

0:50:26.040 --> 0:50:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I lived. I had a house in New York

0:50:28.760 --> 0:50:33.759
<v Speaker 2>and LA and a house up in Woodstock. And when

0:50:33.800 --> 0:50:38.040
<v Speaker 2>I met my husband, which you asked about, which was

0:50:38.200 --> 0:50:43.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, over twenty years ago. He really is a

0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:48.400
<v Speaker 2>mountain guy. He lived in Sun Valley for twenty something years,

0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:53.120
<v Speaker 2>and I had done I had worked about a month

0:50:53.160 --> 0:50:57.640
<v Speaker 2>a year for National Geographic, and I had friends photographer

0:50:57.719 --> 0:51:03.600
<v Speaker 2>friends who were staffed Geographic that all of them had

0:51:03.680 --> 0:51:07.520
<v Speaker 2>moved to Aspen and lived there. And so when we

0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:11.000
<v Speaker 2>got married, we went and looked at Aspen because I

0:51:11.080 --> 0:51:14.919
<v Speaker 2>knew that my husband couldn't really live in New York

0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:19.000
<v Speaker 2>full time. He's the as most I think, good couples,

0:51:19.400 --> 0:51:23.880
<v Speaker 2>your opposites. You know. I love the city. He like,

0:51:24.120 --> 0:51:28.919
<v Speaker 2>he wants to see trees, long distance views, and I say,

0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:33.880
<v Speaker 2>it's not about looking out, it's about looking within. And

0:51:34.520 --> 0:51:39.040
<v Speaker 2>so I thought, well, let's go take a look there.

0:51:39.320 --> 0:51:42.359
<v Speaker 2>We're going to do a mountain town. And they have

0:51:42.400 --> 0:51:45.480
<v Speaker 2>a place called Anderson Ranch, which is an arts center

0:51:45.600 --> 0:51:49.560
<v Speaker 2>and everyone comes through there. I mean they really They're

0:51:49.640 --> 0:51:53.640
<v Speaker 2>like a little mini New York. So I thought, uh,

0:51:53.680 --> 0:51:55.759
<v Speaker 2>And it was much easier to get in and out

0:51:55.760 --> 0:51:58.200
<v Speaker 2>of than Sun Valley. So I thought it would be

0:51:58.239 --> 0:52:02.080
<v Speaker 2>good for me, time for a pattern interrupt sell La,

0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:11.000
<v Speaker 2>stop doing celebrity as much celebrity stuff, and start investigating

0:52:11.880 --> 0:52:16.120
<v Speaker 2>other things with your art. And that was why the

0:52:16.239 --> 0:52:21.359
<v Speaker 2>move to Colorado. Are you a skier, Yeah, I skied, well,

0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:25.000
<v Speaker 2>I became a skier. Yeah, I skied every morning. It

0:52:25.080 --> 0:52:25.520
<v Speaker 2>was great.

0:52:26.160 --> 0:52:32.279
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. So you talk about these multiple houses. Was your

0:52:32.360 --> 0:52:33.759
<v Speaker 1>career that lucrative?

0:52:36.480 --> 0:52:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I always I'm a buyer, not a renter. It's

0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:44.840
<v Speaker 2>the way that I am. And in those days, you know,

0:52:45.000 --> 0:52:48.920
<v Speaker 2>things didn't cost what they do now. I don't understand

0:52:48.960 --> 0:52:53.239
<v Speaker 2>how young people can do it now, you know. And

0:52:53.320 --> 0:52:56.840
<v Speaker 2>I was fortunate because I might buy some real estate

0:52:57.400 --> 0:52:59.520
<v Speaker 2>and sell it, and I made more money in the

0:52:59.560 --> 0:53:04.000
<v Speaker 2>real estate then I did, let's say, for a couple

0:53:04.080 --> 0:53:11.359
<v Speaker 2>of years of work. So it's all always panned out

0:53:11.480 --> 0:53:12.879
<v Speaker 2>for me somehow.

0:53:13.719 --> 0:53:16.600
<v Speaker 1>And what properties do you and your husband own now?

0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:21.400
<v Speaker 2>We have a condo in Aspen, the house in Nashville,

0:53:21.560 --> 0:53:23.640
<v Speaker 2>and a condo in New York City.

0:53:25.160 --> 0:53:30.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back to the Walking Wounded. Why did

0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:32.680
<v Speaker 1>you start a band to begin with? Was that a

0:53:32.840 --> 0:53:36.320
<v Speaker 1>long time desire? Did you practice guitar in your bedroom?

0:53:36.320 --> 0:53:37.400
<v Speaker 1>How did that come about?

0:53:39.120 --> 0:53:43.759
<v Speaker 2>Well? I always sang and wrote songs. I sang in

0:53:44.040 --> 0:53:48.560
<v Speaker 2>coffee houses in Florida. When we moved there, I sang

0:53:48.600 --> 0:53:54.319
<v Speaker 2>in Freddie Neil's coffee house. And I think I might

0:53:54.360 --> 0:54:01.600
<v Speaker 2>have thought that I would be a singer, and when

0:54:01.640 --> 0:54:06.000
<v Speaker 2>I went to University of Michigan, there was a band

0:54:06.080 --> 0:54:09.560
<v Speaker 2>starting up, the Walking Wound, and somehow the manager had

0:54:09.640 --> 0:54:13.239
<v Speaker 2>heard I guess of that band that I could sing,

0:54:13.960 --> 0:54:16.279
<v Speaker 2>so they asked me to join the band, and I

0:54:16.400 --> 0:54:24.040
<v Speaker 2>played bass and sang, and unfortunately, on one of our

0:54:24.080 --> 0:54:28.560
<v Speaker 2>trips to New York, I met a band called Children

0:54:28.600 --> 0:54:33.080
<v Speaker 2>of Paradise and they then came to ann Arbor and

0:54:33.200 --> 0:54:38.480
<v Speaker 2>played and we after the show, we all went out

0:54:38.600 --> 0:54:43.800
<v Speaker 2>in my car to look for flying saucers that seemed

0:54:43.880 --> 0:54:47.319
<v Speaker 2>to have been spotted quite frequently. Believe it or not.

0:54:48.560 --> 0:54:52.160
<v Speaker 1>Let's stop here now, are you the touchy feely kind

0:54:52.160 --> 0:54:54.319
<v Speaker 1>of person? Were you going to tell me? You know

0:54:54.480 --> 0:54:58.440
<v Speaker 1>there are flying saucers and you know, don't use it.

0:54:58.680 --> 0:55:03.680
<v Speaker 2>University of Michigan and we were near Ipsilante, and at

0:55:03.680 --> 0:55:06.680
<v Speaker 2>the time there were not that we believed in it.

0:55:06.800 --> 0:55:10.640
<v Speaker 2>We went to see it. There were sightings quite often

0:55:11.160 --> 0:55:14.000
<v Speaker 2>of UFOs, you know, it was in the ann Arbor

0:55:14.120 --> 0:55:17.600
<v Speaker 2>News or whatever, so I wasn't judging it. I just thought, hey,

0:55:17.680 --> 0:55:21.600
<v Speaker 2>let's go, let's go see if they're really there. And

0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:25.360
<v Speaker 2>this band I got pulled over because I was driving

0:55:25.520 --> 0:55:28.680
<v Speaker 2>very slowly because I kept looking up to see if

0:55:28.680 --> 0:55:32.000
<v Speaker 2>there were any flying saucers. It was my car and

0:55:32.040 --> 0:55:38.399
<v Speaker 2>this band Children of Paradise already and Happy Trom they

0:55:38.480 --> 0:55:42.080
<v Speaker 2>stuck there. I got pulled over by the cops because

0:55:42.280 --> 0:55:45.840
<v Speaker 2>I was driving so slow and they stuck. I didn't

0:55:45.880 --> 0:55:49.760
<v Speaker 2>know they had drugs and they stuck them under my seat.

0:55:49.880 --> 0:55:53.719
<v Speaker 2>They were in the back seat. And so when I

0:55:53.760 --> 0:55:57.799
<v Speaker 2>got pulled over and the police found the drugs and

0:55:57.840 --> 0:56:03.400
<v Speaker 2>it's my car, I was rested and my stepfather said.

0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:07.080
<v Speaker 1>That it is a little bit slower you're driving. You're

0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:10.320
<v Speaker 1>pulled over, which is always a horrifying experience at whatever

0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:14.279
<v Speaker 1>age when they say we found drugs and it's you.

0:56:14.840 --> 0:56:15.920
<v Speaker 1>How did you react?

0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh? I got down on my hands and knees and

0:56:19.000 --> 0:56:21.680
<v Speaker 2>I said, you can't do this. I'm Jewish, I come

0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:25.840
<v Speaker 2>from a good family. You can't. I'm I go to

0:56:25.880 --> 0:56:30.879
<v Speaker 2>ann Arbor, you know. And they didn't care, and they

0:56:30.880 --> 0:56:33.600
<v Speaker 2>took all of us to jail, but they let the

0:56:33.680 --> 0:56:36.839
<v Speaker 2>other band go because they were from New York. So

0:56:37.000 --> 0:56:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I got stuck with a felony.

0:56:38.800 --> 0:56:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Wait wait, so what was your feeling about them doing

0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:42.520
<v Speaker 1>that to you?

0:56:43.680 --> 0:56:50.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh? I'm scumbags. What can I say? And later I

0:56:50.200 --> 0:56:53.239
<v Speaker 2>ran into Happy and already one of them died. I

0:56:53.320 --> 0:56:58.600
<v Speaker 2>ran into them. They live up in Woodstock, right, Yeah,

0:56:59.200 --> 0:57:01.319
<v Speaker 2>and they know what they did to me, you know,

0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:05.920
<v Speaker 2>and they left me there to hold the bag. But anyway,

0:57:07.280 --> 0:57:11.600
<v Speaker 2>my stepfather said that unless I quit my band and

0:57:11.680 --> 0:57:15.000
<v Speaker 2>I stopped singing and all of this stuff, that he

0:57:15.040 --> 0:57:19.120
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't pay for my lawyer. So I made a deal

0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:23.360
<v Speaker 2>with him, and that was why I stopped going in

0:57:23.480 --> 0:57:27.560
<v Speaker 2>that direction and decided to focus on directing.

0:57:28.280 --> 0:57:30.479
<v Speaker 1>Okay, a little bit slower. You know, it's a big

0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:33.240
<v Speaker 1>thing for women to play the bass. Did you know

0:57:33.320 --> 0:57:35.600
<v Speaker 1>how to play the bass before you joined the band?

0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Not really. I played guitar. I had a Gibson guitar. No,

0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:49.480
<v Speaker 2>but they taught me, you know, light my fire. You know,

0:57:50.080 --> 0:57:56.760
<v Speaker 2>playing music is not that hard, you know, whether you

0:57:56.800 --> 0:58:00.200
<v Speaker 2>play it well or not. I don't play well.

0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So you made this deal with your father, grand stepfather,

0:58:07.160 --> 0:58:07.680
<v Speaker 1>excuse me?

0:58:08.520 --> 0:58:09.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:58:09.680 --> 0:58:11.080
<v Speaker 1>Do you still resent him for that?

0:58:12.080 --> 0:58:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Not at all, not at all. No. Your life

0:58:16.000 --> 0:58:20.200
<v Speaker 2>takes turns for various reasons, and it was why I

0:58:20.240 --> 0:58:25.320
<v Speaker 2>then focused on directing. And you know, I loved making films.

0:58:25.360 --> 0:58:28.200
<v Speaker 2>I loved doing what I did, and the deal was,

0:58:29.080 --> 0:58:37.280
<v Speaker 2>you know that after I graduated and returned for six

0:58:37.400 --> 0:58:43.480
<v Speaker 2>months to Miami Beach, that then you know, I was

0:58:43.720 --> 0:58:44.480
<v Speaker 2>free to be.

0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Let's go back to the beginning. So you're talking about Detroit.

0:58:55.880 --> 0:58:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Where were you born?

0:58:58.400 --> 0:59:01.280
<v Speaker 2>I was born in Detroit. You want to know the hospital?

0:59:01.560 --> 0:59:03.280
<v Speaker 1>No, I want to know how long you lived there

0:59:03.360 --> 0:59:04.560
<v Speaker 1>before we moved to Florida.

0:59:05.240 --> 0:59:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Basically. I mean we did move once when I was

0:59:08.520 --> 0:59:12.400
<v Speaker 2>nine to a different part of Florida. That's because my mother,

0:59:12.840 --> 0:59:15.880
<v Speaker 2>she didn't get married. She was opening up a store

0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:19.760
<v Speaker 2>that failed, so we moved back to Detroit. But my

0:59:22.120 --> 0:59:29.200
<v Speaker 2>kindergarten through to tenth grade was basically Detroit, and then

0:59:29.320 --> 0:59:32.600
<v Speaker 2>for tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grade it was Beach Hide.

0:59:33.120 --> 0:59:36.240
<v Speaker 1>Usually that's an incredible trauma to leave all your friends

0:59:36.320 --> 0:59:38.160
<v Speaker 1>behind and start over in high school.

0:59:39.200 --> 0:59:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, I didn't want to go. I was not interested.

0:59:46.880 --> 0:59:50.960
<v Speaker 2>And it was also traumatic in that Miami Beach and

0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:56.080
<v Speaker 2>the lifestyle with my stepfather was just so different than

0:59:57.680 --> 0:59:59.280
<v Speaker 2>what I had had in Detroit.

1:00:00.280 --> 1:00:00.880
<v Speaker 1>In what way?

1:00:02.160 --> 1:00:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh, in every way. My stepfather was very wealthy, and

1:00:11.000 --> 1:00:17.280
<v Speaker 2>he also wanted to take a hand in my upbringing

1:00:18.640 --> 1:00:22.840
<v Speaker 2>as a I don't think I ever ate vegetables, and

1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:27.920
<v Speaker 2>he was very hands on, whereas my mother, because she

1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:32.040
<v Speaker 2>was a working mother, pretty much left me and my

1:00:32.240 --> 1:00:38.000
<v Speaker 2>sister alone and I didn't have that kind of supervision.

1:00:39.760 --> 1:00:45.400
<v Speaker 2>So at first I hated it, but I now am

1:00:45.480 --> 1:00:52.120
<v Speaker 2>really grateful that, you know, someone came in and made

1:00:52.120 --> 1:00:54.440
<v Speaker 2>sure I used my knife and fork, and that I

1:00:54.440 --> 1:00:56.720
<v Speaker 2>didn't just eat with my hands.

1:00:57.400 --> 1:01:00.760
<v Speaker 1>And did your mother and stepfather were main marriad for

1:01:00.800 --> 1:01:06.440
<v Speaker 1>the rest of their lives. Yes, okay, so you're in

1:01:06.680 --> 1:01:09.240
<v Speaker 1>Florida like when the Beatles hit.

1:01:10.600 --> 1:01:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's my picture of the feet of the Beatles,

1:01:15.640 --> 1:01:19.920
<v Speaker 2>So tell us that story. As I said, my stepfather

1:01:20.040 --> 1:01:23.680
<v Speaker 2>and I really didn't well, I didn't get along with

1:01:23.800 --> 1:01:28.320
<v Speaker 2>him because I didn't enjoy having this stranger come in

1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:31.600
<v Speaker 2>and suddenly there are rules like when you walk out

1:01:31.600 --> 1:01:34.160
<v Speaker 2>of the room, turn your light off, or you're being

1:01:34.280 --> 1:01:38.840
<v Speaker 2>fine twenty five cents, a range of things that I

1:01:40.000 --> 1:01:43.400
<v Speaker 2>was rebelling against. And he wanted to be on my

1:01:43.520 --> 1:01:47.880
<v Speaker 2>good side, and because he owned hotels in Miami Beach,

1:01:49.160 --> 1:01:53.640
<v Speaker 2>he could. He did arrange for me to be in

1:01:53.680 --> 1:01:58.000
<v Speaker 2>the lobby of the Dauville Hotel when the Beatles arrived.

1:01:58.120 --> 1:02:01.720
<v Speaker 2>Only I wasn't interested in the Beatles. I didn't like

1:02:01.840 --> 1:02:04.680
<v Speaker 2>the Beatles. I thought, I Want to Hold Your Hand

1:02:04.880 --> 1:02:15.560
<v Speaker 2>was just a really weak song, and they weren't my

1:02:15.640 --> 1:02:19.160
<v Speaker 2>cup of tea. So I told my mother I wasn't going,

1:02:19.240 --> 1:02:22.280
<v Speaker 2>and she said, no, no, you're going, because if there's

1:02:22.640 --> 1:02:26.640
<v Speaker 2>a choice between you and George, I'm staying with George

1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:34.040
<v Speaker 2>and you're gone. So with that in mind, I went

1:02:34.080 --> 1:02:37.560
<v Speaker 2>to the Doba Hotel with my camera because I did

1:02:37.800 --> 1:02:41.640
<v Speaker 2>like the lobby carpets in these fancy hotels, and I

1:02:41.800 --> 1:02:46.880
<v Speaker 2>liked photographing the carpets. And when the Beatles came in,

1:02:46.960 --> 1:02:50.040
<v Speaker 2>I didn't even look at them, but I was looking

1:02:50.040 --> 1:02:54.160
<v Speaker 2>at the carpet and I saw their feet and they

1:02:54.200 --> 1:03:01.000
<v Speaker 2>were all wearing James Brown's boots. Like a little light

1:03:01.040 --> 1:03:05.160
<v Speaker 2>bulb went off in my head. I thought, oh, And

1:03:05.240 --> 1:03:08.160
<v Speaker 2>I took a picture of their feet on the lobby carpet.

1:03:08.720 --> 1:03:17.760
<v Speaker 2>But I just walked away after that, and John grabbed

1:03:17.800 --> 1:03:23.880
<v Speaker 2>my arm. John Lennon Happy Birthday, John Today's birthday. He

1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:26.880
<v Speaker 2>grabbed my arm and said, d youre in all faces?

1:03:27.640 --> 1:03:33.720
<v Speaker 2>And I said no, no, and walked off. And so

1:03:34.920 --> 1:03:37.960
<v Speaker 2>someone from the Miami Herald was there and they asked

1:03:37.960 --> 1:03:41.600
<v Speaker 2>if they could develop my pictures. They asked my father

1:03:41.760 --> 1:03:46.360
<v Speaker 2>and stepfather and he said yes. And so really that

1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:51.440
<v Speaker 2>was my first kind of published picture and my story

1:03:52.280 --> 1:03:58.160
<v Speaker 2>in the in the newspaper about you know, the little

1:03:58.200 --> 1:04:01.520
<v Speaker 2>girl who didn't like the Beatles.

1:04:03.480 --> 1:04:06.000
<v Speaker 1>So but you ended up seeing the Beatles when they

1:04:06.040 --> 1:04:07.919
<v Speaker 1>were there, for they were there to play the third

1:04:07.920 --> 1:04:09.160
<v Speaker 1>week on Ed Sullivan.

1:04:10.160 --> 1:04:13.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I definitely went, and you know, I mean

1:04:13.760 --> 1:04:17.120
<v Speaker 2>it was a whole I remember it as like one time,

1:04:17.640 --> 1:04:20.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, like going being in the lobby, and then

1:04:20.880 --> 1:04:25.560
<v Speaker 2>maybe later being because it was at the same hotel

1:04:25.760 --> 1:04:30.360
<v Speaker 2>as I remember. But the memory that is clearest for

1:04:30.520 --> 1:04:33.760
<v Speaker 2>me is like I couldn't have cared less about the Beatles,

1:04:33.840 --> 1:04:38.440
<v Speaker 2>and yet when they came out on stage, all the

1:04:38.480 --> 1:04:42.920
<v Speaker 2>girls in the audience were standing on chairs and screaming,

1:04:43.920 --> 1:04:47.840
<v Speaker 2>and I found that I was also standing on a chair,

1:04:48.600 --> 1:04:54.680
<v Speaker 2>screaming with tears running down my face. George George, and

1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:59.040
<v Speaker 2>I it was like standing outside of myself because I thought, Lynn,

1:05:00.560 --> 1:05:04.480
<v Speaker 2>what are they doing? But I was like George, George.

1:05:04.840 --> 1:05:10.600
<v Speaker 2>So it's fascinating this kind of thing that spreads, especially

1:05:10.640 --> 1:05:15.600
<v Speaker 2>I think amongst young girls or young adolescents who are

1:05:16.120 --> 1:05:18.520
<v Speaker 2>that you know passionate?

1:05:20.600 --> 1:05:25.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you end up going to University of Michigan. Why

1:05:25.560 --> 1:05:26.880
<v Speaker 1>as opposed anywhere else?

1:05:28.680 --> 1:05:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I was accepted to Ragcliffe, which was Harvard because

1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:36.120
<v Speaker 2>they were it was really kind of like one school.

1:05:36.200 --> 1:05:42.080
<v Speaker 2>Harvard didn't take girls. And my father, my birth father,

1:05:42.720 --> 1:05:47.080
<v Speaker 2>had gone to U of M and so I, for

1:05:47.200 --> 1:05:50.720
<v Speaker 2>whatever reason, wanted to go and get a degree from

1:05:50.920 --> 1:05:53.440
<v Speaker 2>the same school that my father went to.

1:05:53.840 --> 1:05:55.920
<v Speaker 1>And did you get in state tuition or are you're

1:05:55.960 --> 1:05:57.600
<v Speaker 1>living in Florida A No.

1:05:58.080 --> 1:06:00.720
<v Speaker 2>No, I was an out of state student, which made

1:06:00.760 --> 1:06:03.360
<v Speaker 2>it harder to get into and you had to pay

1:06:03.400 --> 1:06:05.280
<v Speaker 2>out of state money.

1:06:05.920 --> 1:06:09.360
<v Speaker 1>Right, So you moved to New York after college? How

1:06:09.360 --> 1:06:11.080
<v Speaker 1>long after college? You moved to New York.

1:06:12.840 --> 1:06:15.080
<v Speaker 2>When I graduated from college, I had to go back

1:06:15.080 --> 1:06:20.600
<v Speaker 2>to Miami Beach for six months and teach high school English.

1:06:21.240 --> 1:06:27.360
<v Speaker 2>So I was a substitute. Yeah, substitute teacher for six months,

1:06:27.360 --> 1:06:31.360
<v Speaker 2>and then as soon as that time was up, I

1:06:31.400 --> 1:06:32.360
<v Speaker 2>went to New York.

1:06:32.800 --> 1:06:34.760
<v Speaker 1>And you stayed with your sister.

1:06:36.600 --> 1:06:39.040
<v Speaker 2>No, I actually stayed with my friend Inky.

1:06:39.920 --> 1:06:40.920
<v Speaker 1>And who is incy.

1:06:42.760 --> 1:06:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Inky was my friend that I met at a bicycle

1:06:46.000 --> 1:06:52.560
<v Speaker 2>shop in Coconhao Grove and Inky had moved there, so

1:06:54.360 --> 1:06:56.560
<v Speaker 2>I went and stayed with Inky. At first she was

1:06:56.600 --> 1:06:59.320
<v Speaker 2>on the Upper West Side, which at that time they

1:06:59.360 --> 1:07:03.920
<v Speaker 2>were like dutings. Yeah, and how long do you live?

1:07:04.720 --> 1:07:07.720
<v Speaker 2>My sister had moved to la by then, So.

1:07:07.600 --> 1:07:09.400
<v Speaker 1>How long did you live with Inky before you got

1:07:09.440 --> 1:07:10.080
<v Speaker 1>your own place?

1:07:12.000 --> 1:07:16.640
<v Speaker 2>A very short time. I don't remember exactly, but you know,

1:07:17.040 --> 1:07:18.840
<v Speaker 2>probably just a few months.

1:07:19.400 --> 1:07:21.400
<v Speaker 1>And so you get to New York. How do you

1:07:21.400 --> 1:07:21.959
<v Speaker 1>get a job?

1:07:24.400 --> 1:07:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I thought that I would direct films. So you

1:07:28.760 --> 1:07:35.080
<v Speaker 2>start out by going to different production companies trying to

1:07:35.080 --> 1:07:42.400
<v Speaker 2>get a job as a production assistant. And because you know,

1:07:42.520 --> 1:07:45.200
<v Speaker 2>I was told you bring a resume and all the

1:07:45.240 --> 1:07:49.360
<v Speaker 2>rest of it. And I graduated from ann Arbor in

1:07:49.600 --> 1:07:54.320
<v Speaker 2>three years with two degrees Magna Cumlada. So when I

1:07:54.360 --> 1:07:59.960
<v Speaker 2>would present my resume with that on it production compan

1:08:00.040 --> 1:08:01.400
<v Speaker 2>and he s would say to me, well, you're not

1:08:01.440 --> 1:08:04.400
<v Speaker 2>going to like run for coffee, you know, I'm not

1:08:04.480 --> 1:08:08.439
<v Speaker 2>going to hire you. So I realized I was like overqualified.

1:08:09.320 --> 1:08:14.280
<v Speaker 2>And during that period of time I had met, through Inky,

1:08:15.880 --> 1:08:22.240
<v Speaker 2>my friend a guy named Bob Zachary who worked at

1:08:22.280 --> 1:08:31.759
<v Speaker 2>Elektra Records, and he had told me that Danny Fields

1:08:31.880 --> 1:08:35.840
<v Speaker 2>was leaving Electra. I knew Danny because Danny had come

1:08:35.920 --> 1:08:40.680
<v Speaker 2>to ann Arbor looking for bands when I was in

1:08:40.760 --> 1:08:45.839
<v Speaker 2>the walking room, and he'd gone to see the MC five, US,

1:08:46.080 --> 1:08:51.320
<v Speaker 2>the SRC KSE and Iggy and the Stooges, and so

1:08:53.120 --> 1:08:56.439
<v Speaker 2>I met him back then. But he was leaving and

1:08:56.920 --> 1:09:02.040
<v Speaker 2>Bob told me about this position, and because I had

1:09:03.200 --> 1:09:09.640
<v Speaker 2>learned that telling the truth wouldn't get you the job,

1:09:13.200 --> 1:09:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I went in and told them that. Well, I had

1:09:19.960 --> 1:09:23.439
<v Speaker 2>a meeting with Jack Holsman, and I told him that

1:09:23.560 --> 1:09:29.040
<v Speaker 2>I had worked at CAP Records. And Jack cap who

1:09:29.080 --> 1:09:37.400
<v Speaker 2>created the forty five, actually is my grandfather's cousin. When

1:09:37.439 --> 1:09:45.519
<v Speaker 2>they came over from Russia. He and my grandfather we're

1:09:45.560 --> 1:09:49.800
<v Speaker 2>going to go into the music business, and my grandfather

1:09:50.640 --> 1:09:56.080
<v Speaker 2>decided that wasn't a good idea and he went to

1:09:56.160 --> 1:09:59.599
<v Speaker 2>Michigan and started a carpet cleaning company. You really want

1:09:59.600 --> 1:10:05.400
<v Speaker 2>to hear all? Yeah, So anyway, I said that I

1:10:05.439 --> 1:10:08.080
<v Speaker 2>had worked for Cap Records, and I also knew that

1:10:08.160 --> 1:10:10.800
<v Speaker 2>if I got in there and did a number of

1:10:10.920 --> 1:10:15.040
<v Speaker 2>things really well right away, that even if Jack Holsman

1:10:15.120 --> 1:10:18.280
<v Speaker 2>were to find out that I lied, he would keep me.

1:10:19.920 --> 1:10:24.080
<v Speaker 2>So that's exactly what happened. I created a thing called

1:10:24.080 --> 1:10:27.960
<v Speaker 2>the biodisc. Right away, I started making radios about a

1:10:28.120 --> 1:10:32.120
<v Speaker 2>range of ideas that I had thrown at Jack in

1:10:32.200 --> 1:10:35.599
<v Speaker 2>our meeting. Like I said, you know, you send out

1:10:35.600 --> 1:10:39.800
<v Speaker 2>these bios to the trade publications. They get so many

1:10:39.800 --> 1:10:43.400
<v Speaker 2>of them from all the labels. You should be sending them,

1:10:43.840 --> 1:10:46.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, a little disc And I had a thing

1:10:46.120 --> 1:10:49.360
<v Speaker 2>that my mom had sent me from the Caribbean, which

1:10:49.439 --> 1:10:53.519
<v Speaker 2>was a record that you could play right, And I said,

1:10:53.560 --> 1:10:58.000
<v Speaker 2>and I can like interview your artists and talk to

1:10:58.080 --> 1:11:01.000
<v Speaker 2>them and also cut radio spots. I don't know what

1:11:01.080 --> 1:11:03.320
<v Speaker 2>I said. I made up all this stuff and then

1:11:03.360 --> 1:11:07.160
<v Speaker 2>I did it. That's that's that's like grand prom That's

1:11:07.200 --> 1:11:10.360
<v Speaker 2>what I do. Like they get up and then I

1:11:10.479 --> 1:11:10.840
<v Speaker 2>do it.

1:11:10.960 --> 1:11:13.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So how long do you work in elector records?

1:11:13.600 --> 1:11:16.519
<v Speaker 2>Not that long? Because in the beginning I liked it

1:11:16.560 --> 1:11:19.680
<v Speaker 2>because I liked the artists that I was doing, Delaney

1:11:19.760 --> 1:11:25.599
<v Speaker 2>and Bonnie. Oh who is that great crew? The I'm

1:11:25.600 --> 1:11:28.799
<v Speaker 2>blanking their name, you know. Iggy was on the label,

1:11:29.280 --> 1:11:32.439
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of artists that I liked. But then he

1:11:32.560 --> 1:11:36.160
<v Speaker 2>wanted me to do people that I didn't like, and

1:11:36.240 --> 1:11:40.320
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want to do that. And I'm someone who

1:11:40.360 --> 1:11:44.160
<v Speaker 2>thinks like, if you're unhappy at what you're doing, change it.

1:11:45.280 --> 1:11:50.439
<v Speaker 2>So that's what I did. Yeah, actually I missed a step,

1:11:50.560 --> 1:11:54.000
<v Speaker 2>to tell you the truth. When I went around trying

1:11:54.000 --> 1:11:57.760
<v Speaker 2>to get a job as a production assistant and they

1:11:57.800 --> 1:12:05.240
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't hire me, I decided to try NBC and to

1:12:05.320 --> 1:12:07.559
<v Speaker 2>see how it worked there. How you got a job

1:12:07.600 --> 1:12:13.120
<v Speaker 2>as a production assistant And they told me that I

1:12:13.160 --> 1:12:16.479
<v Speaker 2>could be a guide and after I'm a guide for

1:12:16.520 --> 1:12:20.040
<v Speaker 2>six months, then I could move up to being a

1:12:20.080 --> 1:12:24.320
<v Speaker 2>production assistant. Well, I'm a girl who graduated from college

1:12:24.320 --> 1:12:26.800
<v Speaker 2>in three years with two degrees. I'm not spending six

1:12:26.880 --> 1:12:31.240
<v Speaker 2>months as a guide. So while I was being a guide,

1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:36.160
<v Speaker 2>I got to meet people on this show called Personality,

1:12:36.560 --> 1:12:41.400
<v Speaker 2>where you write questions for the TV show, and I

1:12:41.439 --> 1:12:44.080
<v Speaker 2>talked my way into that. So I was only a

1:12:44.120 --> 1:12:47.439
<v Speaker 2>guide for like, I don't know, a month or two

1:12:47.520 --> 1:12:51.240
<v Speaker 2>months before, I was a writer for a television show

1:12:51.280 --> 1:12:55.800
<v Speaker 2>called Personality. All you had to do was write questions.

1:12:56.200 --> 1:12:59.559
<v Speaker 2>And then I decided I didn't like TV. I didn't

1:12:59.680 --> 1:13:02.960
<v Speaker 2>like that, I didn't like being around it. And that

1:13:03.200 --> 1:13:07.920
<v Speaker 2>was when when I must have met Bob Zachary through Inky,

1:13:09.479 --> 1:13:11.920
<v Speaker 2>and I went in the direction of music.

1:13:12.000 --> 1:13:15.840
<v Speaker 1>Two questions. How long did you write questions for personality?

1:13:16.880 --> 1:13:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Not that long because I knew I didn't like it.

1:13:21.400 --> 1:13:24.040
<v Speaker 2>I really don't remember it a long time ago.

1:13:24.240 --> 1:13:25.599
<v Speaker 1>And where is Inky today?

1:13:27.680 --> 1:13:32.160
<v Speaker 2>I think she's in Greece. She married a Greek film producer.

1:13:33.080 --> 1:13:37.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you leave Electric Records with another job or

1:13:37.680 --> 1:13:39.240
<v Speaker 1>you just say I can't take it anymore.

1:13:40.520 --> 1:13:43.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh, no, no job. When I leave things, I normally

1:13:43.720 --> 1:13:47.160
<v Speaker 2>don't at the moment have something that I'm going to.

1:13:48.040 --> 1:13:50.920
<v Speaker 2>I just am like, I don't want to do this anymore.

1:13:51.280 --> 1:13:57.960
<v Speaker 2>And I decided I had for my sister made studded

1:13:58.080 --> 1:14:04.240
<v Speaker 2>leather belts, and I knew I could sell them to

1:14:04.320 --> 1:14:08.120
<v Speaker 2>some of the musicians that I've met. And I also,

1:14:09.000 --> 1:14:15.520
<v Speaker 2>uh became a peddler in New York. I had these puppets,

1:14:16.240 --> 1:14:25.320
<v Speaker 2>uh marionettes. One is actually up there still. I would

1:14:25.320 --> 1:14:29.439
<v Speaker 2>go to l A hold on if you don't, Oh,

1:14:29.479 --> 1:14:34.280
<v Speaker 2>I can't get up there anyway. I wanted to show. Oh,

1:14:34.320 --> 1:14:40.120
<v Speaker 2>but she looks just like me, and uh, so I

1:14:40.160 --> 1:14:45.320
<v Speaker 2>would sit uh with my marionettes at the episcopal.

1:14:45.280 --> 1:14:47.120
<v Speaker 1>Well you went to where did the you talked about

1:14:47.160 --> 1:14:49.519
<v Speaker 1>going to l a, and where did the marionettes come from?

1:14:49.720 --> 1:14:53.640
<v Speaker 2>My sister and I went over to Tijuana and I

1:14:53.680 --> 1:14:58.360
<v Speaker 2>saw these marionettes and I said, oh, I can sell those,

1:14:58.920 --> 1:15:03.599
<v Speaker 2>sou So I bought dozens of them, and I told

1:15:03.600 --> 1:15:07.560
<v Speaker 2>them when I went through the you know the customs,

1:15:07.800 --> 1:15:10.519
<v Speaker 2>you know where you drive through with your car, that

1:15:10.600 --> 1:15:13.120
<v Speaker 2>I was a school teacher and I was bringing them back,

1:15:13.680 --> 1:15:19.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, for my kids. And then I sold them

1:15:19.280 --> 1:15:21.719
<v Speaker 2>for a while on this street.

1:15:21.960 --> 1:15:23.320
<v Speaker 1>How much was the puppet?

1:15:25.200 --> 1:15:29.519
<v Speaker 2>I still have the case, one for three, two for five.

1:15:30.520 --> 1:15:36.280
<v Speaker 2>And I would sit there from about four point thirty

1:15:37.040 --> 1:15:41.800
<v Speaker 2>to six o'clock and I would make at least three

1:15:41.880 --> 1:15:44.480
<v Speaker 2>hundred dollars in cash.

1:15:44.520 --> 1:15:45.040
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

1:15:45.360 --> 1:15:49.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because people were leaving work walking down Fifth Avenue

1:15:49.960 --> 1:15:52.920
<v Speaker 2>so they could bring a marionette home for their kid,

1:15:53.479 --> 1:15:57.439
<v Speaker 2>you know. And I just did that for a while

1:15:57.479 --> 1:16:00.080
<v Speaker 2>to be able to have money to figure out what

1:16:00.160 --> 1:16:01.360
<v Speaker 2>is it I really wanted to do.

1:16:01.479 --> 1:16:04.439
<v Speaker 1>Wait one second, were you just standing there by the

1:16:04.479 --> 1:16:07.960
<v Speaker 1>cash box or were you playing with the marionette? Were

1:16:07.960 --> 1:16:10.840
<v Speaker 1>you closing the people? How much? Were you a salesperson?

1:16:12.000 --> 1:16:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh? I have a picture there. I had. I have

1:16:14.360 --> 1:16:19.320
<v Speaker 2>a picture of me doing it. I didn't have to

1:16:19.360 --> 1:16:21.840
<v Speaker 2>sell much. I mean, I just I had a case

1:16:21.920 --> 1:16:25.200
<v Speaker 2>that was open and it said one for three, two

1:16:25.240 --> 1:16:27.640
<v Speaker 2>for five, and I just sat there and played with

1:16:27.680 --> 1:16:31.280
<v Speaker 2>my marionettes and people would buy them. And that was that.

1:16:31.720 --> 1:16:35.320
<v Speaker 2>It was easy and I could do other things. You know,

1:16:35.360 --> 1:16:38.280
<v Speaker 2>I had enough money to pay my rent to eat food.

1:16:38.920 --> 1:16:42.040
<v Speaker 2>That was what I, you know, cared most about.

1:16:43.120 --> 1:16:44.800
<v Speaker 1>So you did that for how long? And then what?

1:16:46.280 --> 1:16:49.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember it. I don't I didn't do it

1:16:49.040 --> 1:16:54.839
<v Speaker 2>for that long, don't. I don't really remember.

1:16:54.920 --> 1:16:56.479
<v Speaker 1>Well, what was the next job after that?

1:17:00.400 --> 1:17:08.519
<v Speaker 2>After that? That was when I met Joshua White of

1:17:08.640 --> 1:17:10.840
<v Speaker 2>the Fillmore East and.

1:17:11.400 --> 1:17:15.480
<v Speaker 1>West that ultimately switched from Joshua to Joe. Was Joshua

1:17:15.880 --> 1:17:18.599
<v Speaker 1>still doing the light show at the Fillmore East when

1:17:18.640 --> 1:17:19.080
<v Speaker 1>you met him?

1:17:20.400 --> 1:17:24.800
<v Speaker 2>No, he was starting a new company called Joshua Television.

1:17:25.439 --> 1:17:29.280
<v Speaker 1>How did you meet Joshuaite.

1:17:28.680 --> 1:17:33.080
<v Speaker 2>Through my sister. They were both going to the airport

1:17:33.160 --> 1:17:35.559
<v Speaker 2>to England and I went in the car with my

1:17:35.680 --> 1:17:39.519
<v Speaker 2>sister and that's how I met josh And then when

1:17:39.600 --> 1:17:43.320
<v Speaker 2>josh came back from England, he called me up. We

1:17:43.360 --> 1:17:47.720
<v Speaker 2>talked about what he was doing, and yeah, one thing,

1:17:47.960 --> 1:17:50.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, you just keep working. One thing leads to

1:17:50.640 --> 1:17:54.920
<v Speaker 2>another and do the things that you love to do.

1:17:55.680 --> 1:17:58.519
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So you went to work with josh What were

1:17:58.520 --> 1:17:59.120
<v Speaker 1>you doing there?

1:18:01.920 --> 1:18:07.400
<v Speaker 2>I was, well, I was a few things. I was

1:18:07.439 --> 1:18:10.600
<v Speaker 2>a director because we did a thing called video magnification.

1:18:11.720 --> 1:18:15.240
<v Speaker 2>No one had really done that before. You see it

1:18:15.280 --> 1:18:18.479
<v Speaker 2>all the time now, large screens at events, and we

1:18:18.600 --> 1:18:25.640
<v Speaker 2>basically did the Hollywood Bowl and the Guarden. And that

1:18:25.920 --> 1:18:31.040
<v Speaker 2>was how I ended up at ABC was because we

1:18:31.080 --> 1:18:33.160
<v Speaker 2>did that for I don't know a year or so,

1:18:33.760 --> 1:18:38.519
<v Speaker 2>and then ABC came to Joshua and said that they

1:18:38.680 --> 1:18:45.000
<v Speaker 2>wanted him to work on the first late night rock

1:18:45.080 --> 1:18:48.080
<v Speaker 2>and roll TV show. So when I worked with Joshua,

1:18:48.240 --> 1:18:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I called all the shots that were not being recorded

1:18:53.400 --> 1:18:57.719
<v Speaker 2>that were live, and he called what was going to camera?

1:18:58.600 --> 1:19:03.040
<v Speaker 2>So that really helped. And I'd studied television directing, but

1:19:03.880 --> 1:19:06.800
<v Speaker 2>actually doing it like that for a period of time,

1:19:07.320 --> 1:19:13.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, really increased my skill and my confidence.

1:19:14.200 --> 1:19:15.920
<v Speaker 1>And this is in concert.

1:19:17.000 --> 1:19:18.519
<v Speaker 2>Yes, ABC in concert?

1:19:18.640 --> 1:19:21.559
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So how do you leave there to go to

1:19:21.600 --> 1:19:22.559
<v Speaker 1>work for Grand Funk?

1:19:24.240 --> 1:19:27.679
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's right, you leave Grand Funk.

1:19:27.800 --> 1:19:28.599
<v Speaker 1>Then what do you do?

1:19:30.439 --> 1:19:37.679
<v Speaker 2>Oh? By that time I decided that it was always

1:19:37.920 --> 1:19:44.040
<v Speaker 2>photography that allowed me to travel meet people, do a

1:19:44.160 --> 1:19:48.479
<v Speaker 2>variety of different things. So I thought I'll just take

1:19:48.520 --> 1:19:50.320
<v Speaker 2>pictures and see what happens.

1:19:50.400 --> 1:19:53.080
<v Speaker 1>Just a little bit slow when you how skilled were

1:19:53.120 --> 1:19:56.000
<v Speaker 1>you as a photographer and were you getting paid to

1:19:56.040 --> 1:19:58.839
<v Speaker 1>be a photographer before you made that decision.

1:20:00.760 --> 1:20:03.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, when I did all the stuff for Grand Funk,

1:20:03.280 --> 1:20:05.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, I did the three D album cover, that

1:20:06.080 --> 1:20:09.479
<v Speaker 2>was a first and learning how to do things. I mean,

1:20:09.479 --> 1:20:12.880
<v Speaker 2>no one had ever done a three D cover. In

1:20:12.960 --> 1:20:18.960
<v Speaker 2>part was just me figuring it out. I don't think

1:20:19.000 --> 1:20:22.439
<v Speaker 2>it's so hard to figure how to do things, and

1:20:22.479 --> 1:20:27.400
<v Speaker 2>I was self taught in photography. I just to me

1:20:27.640 --> 1:20:31.960
<v Speaker 2>balancing light and time, and then it's about the eye

1:20:32.000 --> 1:20:36.959
<v Speaker 2>that you have. So and when it comes to pictures

1:20:37.000 --> 1:20:40.479
<v Speaker 2>with people, it's about directing, which you know, I'm a

1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:46.400
<v Speaker 2>control freak, so I direct and it suited me. But

1:20:46.479 --> 1:20:50.679
<v Speaker 2>it also suited me because I wasn't tied down by

1:20:50.720 --> 1:20:56.519
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people or meetings. I could just make

1:20:56.560 --> 1:21:00.200
<v Speaker 2>my pictures. One of the things when I was directing

1:21:01.080 --> 1:21:07.280
<v Speaker 2>for in concert was someone from a record label was

1:21:07.320 --> 1:21:10.120
<v Speaker 2>in the mobile unit while I was calling my shots,

1:21:10.160 --> 1:21:13.439
<v Speaker 2>and he saw my storyboard and said he wanted to

1:21:13.560 --> 1:21:16.000
<v Speaker 2>use one of the pictures on the storyboard for an

1:21:16.000 --> 1:21:18.960
<v Speaker 2>album cover and I said how much and he said

1:21:18.960 --> 1:21:22.000
<v Speaker 2>one thousand dollars And I said, what about fifteen hundred

1:21:22.080 --> 1:21:25.120
<v Speaker 2>And he said, okay, I got fifteen hundred. I get

1:21:25.120 --> 1:21:28.600
<v Speaker 2>paid five hundred dollars to direct this show. And you know,

1:21:28.640 --> 1:21:30.720
<v Speaker 2>I have to go to all these meetings and it's

1:21:30.760 --> 1:21:34.400
<v Speaker 2>so aggravating, and I deal with stupid people that you

1:21:34.439 --> 1:21:37.120
<v Speaker 2>know that it was like what am I doing? You know?

1:21:39.720 --> 1:21:44.519
<v Speaker 2>So that was a key to me. Also, I knew

1:21:44.760 --> 1:21:50.639
<v Speaker 2>from Grand Funk, from taking pictures of them and supplying them,

1:21:50.680 --> 1:21:54.120
<v Speaker 2>that there was a market around the world. It wasn't

1:21:54.200 --> 1:21:58.599
<v Speaker 2>just magazines in America. You know, there's Japanese magazines, there's

1:21:58.640 --> 1:22:03.800
<v Speaker 2>French magazines, things that German magazines, things that like you

1:22:03.960 --> 1:22:09.320
<v Speaker 2>just don't think of if you're not thinking about, you know,

1:22:09.479 --> 1:22:16.400
<v Speaker 2>being a professional in that field. So I just decided,

1:22:16.600 --> 1:22:19.320
<v Speaker 2>you know what, for a while, it's just going to

1:22:19.360 --> 1:22:20.519
<v Speaker 2>be me and my camera.

1:22:21.000 --> 1:22:23.440
<v Speaker 1>So how'd you get gigs?

1:22:26.439 --> 1:22:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Either? I made pictures and I took them around, Like

1:22:31.160 --> 1:22:36.519
<v Speaker 2>for example, I took pictures with one of my dolls

1:22:36.560 --> 1:22:39.320
<v Speaker 2>and I called it rape of the Doll, and I

1:22:39.360 --> 1:22:44.080
<v Speaker 2>took it to the National Lampoon and Anne Beats was

1:22:44.160 --> 1:22:47.519
<v Speaker 2>doing the first She was the editor of the first

1:22:47.640 --> 1:22:55.920
<v Speaker 2>all women edition of the Lampoon and she published My

1:22:56.080 --> 1:22:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Rape of a Doll. And by being friends with Anne,

1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:04.960
<v Speaker 2>then I at all these other people from the Lampoon

1:23:05.400 --> 1:23:12.040
<v Speaker 2>and I started writing and shooting photo fundies for them.

1:23:14.000 --> 1:23:17.519
<v Speaker 2>You know, just one thing leads to another.

1:23:18.840 --> 1:23:20.920
<v Speaker 1>It actually doesn't that, but we'll get to that in

1:23:20.920 --> 1:23:23.920
<v Speaker 1>a minute. So how do you end up shooting musicians?

1:23:25.320 --> 1:23:33.040
<v Speaker 2>Ah well, I had friends who were musicians, and you know,

1:23:33.560 --> 1:23:38.240
<v Speaker 2>it's the subject. I'm not really into force people, not

1:23:38.360 --> 1:23:42.559
<v Speaker 2>that I wouldn't photograph them, but those were my friends,

1:23:42.680 --> 1:23:47.639
<v Speaker 2>those those were those were the people that I felt

1:23:47.840 --> 1:23:53.240
<v Speaker 2>closest to be my tribe. I've always been about images

1:23:53.520 --> 1:24:01.080
<v Speaker 2>and music. You know, those those two things have uh

1:24:01.600 --> 1:24:06.679
<v Speaker 2>have definitely made up who I am. You know, That's

1:24:06.680 --> 1:24:09.960
<v Speaker 2>what world powers is. Uh, it's a a strault of

1:24:10.040 --> 1:24:16.160
<v Speaker 2>where imagery meets you know, music. My videos that were

1:24:16.200 --> 1:24:20.280
<v Speaker 2>not made to be advertisements for a record. They were

1:24:20.320 --> 1:24:26.719
<v Speaker 2>made to make the idea bigger than just a song.

1:24:27.880 --> 1:24:35.040
<v Speaker 2>So you know it's I'm turned on by by finding

1:24:35.120 --> 1:24:42.120
<v Speaker 2>new things and figuring out how to take things that

1:24:42.240 --> 1:24:46.519
<v Speaker 2>already exist and applying them in new ways. So a

1:24:46.520 --> 1:24:50.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of the time, you know, I worked on beck.

1:24:50.360 --> 1:24:55.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean when I started shooting let's say, pictures of

1:24:55.600 --> 1:24:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Patty Smith, who you've become. You know, I've become friends

1:24:59.439 --> 1:25:04.639
<v Speaker 2>with her. We're still friends. It was more about because

1:25:04.840 --> 1:25:07.880
<v Speaker 2>I liked your Patty did I liked what she looked like.

1:25:09.120 --> 1:25:12.280
<v Speaker 2>I'll make some pictures and then I always felt, just

1:25:12.320 --> 1:25:15.720
<v Speaker 2>like I could with the Marionettes, I'll go present them

1:25:15.760 --> 1:25:18.800
<v Speaker 2>to the label or management and I can sell them.

1:25:19.840 --> 1:25:24.719
<v Speaker 2>And I would say probably ninety percent of my career

1:25:25.560 --> 1:25:30.400
<v Speaker 2>in that area of photography is me doing it and

1:25:30.439 --> 1:25:32.519
<v Speaker 2>then selling it, not being hired.

1:25:34.600 --> 1:25:38.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, how did it graduate to being hired?

1:25:40.760 --> 1:25:42.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm not hired that often.

1:25:43.120 --> 1:25:45.519
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's go back to when you start doing it.

1:25:45.520 --> 1:25:49.400
<v Speaker 1>In the seventies and eighties, were labels and other people

1:25:49.479 --> 1:25:53.080
<v Speaker 1>calling you to shoot different things, or was always the

1:25:53.120 --> 1:25:54.839
<v Speaker 1>same you're shooting and you're selling.

1:25:56.800 --> 1:25:59.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, there's a mix. But more of it was

1:25:59.320 --> 1:26:02.799
<v Speaker 2>me shooting and selling. And then there were times where

1:26:03.240 --> 1:26:05.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, I might have been the flavor of the

1:26:05.439 --> 1:26:09.840
<v Speaker 2>month for the art director at Columbia or the art

1:26:09.920 --> 1:26:12.400
<v Speaker 2>director at Warner Brothers, you know, and then they're on

1:26:12.560 --> 1:26:18.240
<v Speaker 2>to something else. But I would say for the most part,

1:26:18.680 --> 1:26:22.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, you just keep on working, making work, whether

1:26:22.479 --> 1:26:28.560
<v Speaker 2>whether they're hiring or not. And you know, like, for example,

1:26:30.240 --> 1:26:36.559
<v Speaker 2>I saw for Exampa when I was riding my bike

1:26:36.640 --> 1:26:39.759
<v Speaker 2>in New York, and I saw him go into the

1:26:39.800 --> 1:26:43.599
<v Speaker 2>Saint Regis Hotel, and so I wrote a letter and

1:26:43.640 --> 1:26:46.120
<v Speaker 2>I dropped it off and I said in my letter,

1:26:47.479 --> 1:26:51.280
<v Speaker 2>you know about how if he came to my studio,

1:26:52.200 --> 1:26:56.120
<v Speaker 2>it would cost me about at least one thousand dollars,

1:26:56.120 --> 1:27:00.320
<v Speaker 2>which is a lot of money to a Jewish shoot

1:27:00.360 --> 1:27:03.720
<v Speaker 2>with him. But during that shoot, I'd shoot enough setups

1:27:03.760 --> 1:27:07.240
<v Speaker 2>that I could then go sell them to all the magazines,

1:27:07.880 --> 1:27:11.720
<v Speaker 2>and he could approve what would go out, and if

1:27:11.720 --> 1:27:16.760
<v Speaker 2>he didn't like my pictures, we'd kill them. And so

1:27:17.479 --> 1:27:20.280
<v Speaker 2>he only had like an hour or two to lose,

1:27:20.320 --> 1:27:23.360
<v Speaker 2>whereas I had one thousand dollars to lose. And I

1:27:23.360 --> 1:27:27.160
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be offering this because I'm not stupid that I

1:27:27.240 --> 1:27:33.439
<v Speaker 2>want to lose one thousand dollars. So Frank responded and

1:27:33.560 --> 1:27:36.400
<v Speaker 2>called me, and he came over and we did the

1:27:36.439 --> 1:27:41.200
<v Speaker 2>pictures and like for eleven years, I mean, from then on, anytime,

1:27:42.120 --> 1:27:45.840
<v Speaker 2>the record label or someone wanted pictures. Frank was hiring me,

1:27:46.880 --> 1:27:50.559
<v Speaker 2>So every situation is different. But I went ahead and

1:27:50.600 --> 1:27:54.799
<v Speaker 2>did that with Frank because I really respected Frank Zampa

1:27:54.920 --> 1:27:56.519
<v Speaker 2>and wanted to work.

1:28:04.400 --> 1:28:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're working in the music area. You talk about

1:28:08.040 --> 1:28:11.920
<v Speaker 1>your friend Nancy and Life magazine, you talk about national geographic.

1:28:12.439 --> 1:28:15.920
<v Speaker 1>How does it spread out into non music world?

1:28:17.240 --> 1:28:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, I felt I had to do that in

1:28:19.400 --> 1:28:22.639
<v Speaker 2>order to stay sane. In other words, if I kept

1:28:22.640 --> 1:28:25.679
<v Speaker 2>bringing up music pictures, let's say the newsweek or Time

1:28:26.240 --> 1:28:30.840
<v Speaker 2>for the people section, or you know, just saying why

1:28:30.880 --> 1:28:36.479
<v Speaker 2>don't you consider this, then when things happened, you know,

1:28:36.520 --> 1:28:39.160
<v Speaker 2>you get to know those people. And then when things

1:28:39.240 --> 1:28:44.400
<v Speaker 2>happened like Challenger the you know, I went to Florida

1:28:44.479 --> 1:28:48.840
<v Speaker 2>for the UH spaceship that unfortunately blew up with the

1:28:48.920 --> 1:28:53.200
<v Speaker 2>teacher on it and everything. You know, you get those

1:28:53.400 --> 1:28:58.080
<v Speaker 2>kinds of jobs too, you know. There's all I didn't

1:28:58.200 --> 1:29:01.439
<v Speaker 2>want to just shoot music. There are people, you know,

1:29:01.560 --> 1:29:05.719
<v Speaker 2>like Danny Clinch who's a wonderful photographer, but he only

1:29:05.760 --> 1:29:10.040
<v Speaker 2>wants to shoot music. That's what he does, right. I'm

1:29:10.040 --> 1:29:13.400
<v Speaker 2>not like that. I'm not one thing. I'm not And

1:29:13.520 --> 1:29:17.240
<v Speaker 2>just as much as I shot music. I shot movie stars,

1:29:17.439 --> 1:29:20.800
<v Speaker 2>maybe not just as much, but quite a bit, you know.

1:29:20.960 --> 1:29:25.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I did Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back. I

1:29:25.880 --> 1:29:29.400
<v Speaker 2>just saw the other day someone posted a nineteen eighty

1:29:29.439 --> 1:29:33.320
<v Speaker 2>eight cover of one of my studio portraits of Griffin Dunn.

1:29:34.040 --> 1:29:39.000
<v Speaker 2>You know. So I have a very wide range, and

1:29:39.360 --> 1:29:45.320
<v Speaker 2>in part it hurts me because when people, especially nowadays,

1:29:45.320 --> 1:29:47.639
<v Speaker 2>where there's so much coming at us all the time,

1:29:48.040 --> 1:29:51.280
<v Speaker 2>when they think of you, they need to have you

1:29:51.400 --> 1:29:55.040
<v Speaker 2>in a box, they need to associate you with one

1:29:55.120 --> 1:29:59.200
<v Speaker 2>thing because there's just too much going on. And that's

1:29:59.439 --> 1:30:03.160
<v Speaker 2>not who I've ever been. I'm a lot of different things,

1:30:03.520 --> 1:30:09.600
<v Speaker 2>you know. And that's the way it is for me.

1:30:09.680 --> 1:30:12.440
<v Speaker 2>And it has its pluses and it's minuses.

1:30:13.720 --> 1:30:16.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back to this era. You shoot, Frank,

1:30:16.360 --> 1:30:19.680
<v Speaker 1>You're going to the magazine's selling pictures. How do you

1:30:19.800 --> 1:30:20.719
<v Speaker 1>establish the price?

1:30:22.400 --> 1:30:25.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, they have rates. You learn that, but you know,

1:30:25.439 --> 1:30:28.639
<v Speaker 2>you ask questions. They have a rate for a quarter page,

1:30:28.680 --> 1:30:32.639
<v Speaker 2>a half page, a full page, a cover. And then

1:30:32.760 --> 1:30:38.240
<v Speaker 2>also I joined the ASMP, there are unions that will

1:30:38.280 --> 1:30:42.120
<v Speaker 2>tell you, you know, what the guideline is to be paid.

1:30:42.560 --> 1:30:46.000
<v Speaker 2>But like for example, when I first started working for Newsweek.

1:30:46.439 --> 1:30:48.959
<v Speaker 2>They told me the day rate was three hundred dollars.

1:30:49.680 --> 1:30:52.720
<v Speaker 2>And then I talked to my friends later on who

1:30:52.720 --> 1:30:56.160
<v Speaker 2>are gods, and I said, how much do you get paid?

1:30:56.200 --> 1:31:01.840
<v Speaker 2>They get paid five hundred dollars. So it's your job

1:31:01.920 --> 1:31:04.519
<v Speaker 2>to educate. So I went back to music and I said,

1:31:04.800 --> 1:31:10.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm five hundred dollars from now on, right, So you

1:31:10.080 --> 1:31:14.200
<v Speaker 2>just have to educate yourself and take responsibility for it.

1:31:14.280 --> 1:31:17.639
<v Speaker 2>You can't blame somebody for wanting to get a deal

1:31:18.240 --> 1:31:22.280
<v Speaker 2>on you, you know, but then don't let yourself be used.

1:31:23.240 --> 1:31:26.160
<v Speaker 1>How about the issue of being fearful that the price

1:31:26.240 --> 1:31:27.800
<v Speaker 1>is too high, they'll go to somebody else.

1:31:28.560 --> 1:31:34.439
<v Speaker 2>Let them go. That's how it works, you know, That's

1:31:34.439 --> 1:31:38.599
<v Speaker 2>how you set your price. Unfortunately, there are too many,

1:31:39.160 --> 1:31:43.040
<v Speaker 2>especially photographers, that think this way, and that's why it

1:31:43.120 --> 1:31:46.200
<v Speaker 2>has so lowered the market.

1:31:47.560 --> 1:31:50.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you talked about going to shoot the Challenger,

1:31:51.760 --> 1:31:54.880
<v Speaker 1>which ended up being a disaster. That was a hired gig.

1:31:55.040 --> 1:32:00.280
<v Speaker 1>Right the Newsweek or whatever said hey, good, oh.

1:32:00.280 --> 1:32:03.320
<v Speaker 2>I would yeah, or I would call them up. By

1:32:03.360 --> 1:32:08.200
<v Speaker 2>this time, you know, things weren't email and texts and

1:32:08.280 --> 1:32:10.920
<v Speaker 2>all of that. You went up to the publication, I

1:32:10.960 --> 1:32:14.160
<v Speaker 2>had years of like being up there knowing them, and

1:32:14.200 --> 1:32:17.000
<v Speaker 2>I could say I really want to cover this, and

1:32:17.040 --> 1:32:19.559
<v Speaker 2>they know I'm good, so they would say yes. But

1:32:19.600 --> 1:32:23.000
<v Speaker 2>it was most and it's not just me. Most photographers

1:32:23.360 --> 1:32:27.840
<v Speaker 2>do suggest like when I went to a Life magazine

1:32:28.200 --> 1:32:33.080
<v Speaker 2>and said, I want to do a story on Tony Robbins.

1:32:33.120 --> 1:32:35.840
<v Speaker 2>And here's why, you know, I want to do a

1:32:35.880 --> 1:32:39.479
<v Speaker 2>story on this or that. If they think it's a

1:32:39.520 --> 1:32:41.720
<v Speaker 2>good story, they'll send you.

1:32:43.000 --> 1:32:45.679
<v Speaker 1>And then there was like a going rate you knew

1:32:45.840 --> 1:32:48.759
<v Speaker 1>to charge for that or was it a negotiation every time?

1:32:49.360 --> 1:32:53.679
<v Speaker 2>No, there were when you work for a publication there

1:32:54.479 --> 1:32:57.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, there always is a day rate or what

1:32:57.520 --> 1:32:59.479
<v Speaker 2>they call a day rate against space.

1:33:01.040 --> 1:33:04.800
<v Speaker 1>And then how'd you end up shooting movie stars?

1:33:05.720 --> 1:33:11.160
<v Speaker 2>Probably well I wanted to, but also like I met

1:33:11.479 --> 1:33:14.759
<v Speaker 2>uh I don't remember who were the first movie stars

1:33:14.800 --> 1:33:22.679
<v Speaker 2>I photographed, but I met Carrie Fisher and we became friends.

1:33:22.760 --> 1:33:25.120
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't a matter of shooting, we were just friends.

1:33:25.640 --> 1:33:27.800
<v Speaker 2>And then when it came time for the film, she

1:33:27.920 --> 1:33:32.320
<v Speaker 2>insisted that I had to be the photographer, you know,

1:33:32.400 --> 1:33:35.559
<v Speaker 2>so then you do one thing and that leads to

1:33:35.640 --> 1:33:38.720
<v Speaker 2>another thing. But I used to do a lot of

1:33:40.880 --> 1:33:49.840
<v Speaker 2>suggesting to Newsweek in time of who I thought would

1:33:49.840 --> 1:33:53.559
<v Speaker 2>be good for them to do a story or a

1:33:53.600 --> 1:33:56.519
<v Speaker 2>little peith on in that section in the people section.

1:33:57.320 --> 1:34:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, my first cover of People was Sissy Space.

1:34:00.760 --> 1:34:07.280
<v Speaker 2>That was shot. Sissy actually called me up because she

1:34:07.360 --> 1:34:10.679
<v Speaker 2>wanted to meet Patty Smith, and I said, well, I'd

1:34:10.720 --> 1:34:13.280
<v Speaker 2>like to do pictures with you. I can have Patty

1:34:13.360 --> 1:34:17.200
<v Speaker 2>come over, you know, And then I ran them around

1:34:17.280 --> 1:34:22.080
<v Speaker 2>to the magazine and People Magazine used it as a cover,

1:34:22.479 --> 1:34:26.240
<v Speaker 2>so people might think I shot it for People Magazine,

1:34:26.360 --> 1:34:29.519
<v Speaker 2>but I didn't, you know, I shot it for me.

1:34:29.840 --> 1:34:33.320
<v Speaker 2>And that takes a lot of pressure off as well,

1:34:33.360 --> 1:34:37.360
<v Speaker 2>because you're when you're working with these people, you're just

1:34:37.479 --> 1:34:44.760
<v Speaker 2>trying to collaborate and make something, you know, fun, and

1:34:44.800 --> 1:34:49.480
<v Speaker 2>that makes them look good. It's not brain surgery.

1:34:50.040 --> 1:34:53.000
<v Speaker 1>How big a switch was it for you personally to

1:34:53.040 --> 1:34:56.040
<v Speaker 1>go from film to digital and were you an early

1:34:56.080 --> 1:34:57.400
<v Speaker 1>adopter or lad adopter?

1:34:58.160 --> 1:35:06.320
<v Speaker 2>Early very early. I'm always interested in new technologies and

1:35:07.720 --> 1:35:13.640
<v Speaker 2>I saw them as different forms of expression and still do.

1:35:14.439 --> 1:35:18.120
<v Speaker 2>Film is different than digital, and it's not that one

1:35:18.360 --> 1:35:22.640
<v Speaker 2>is better than another. They're different and you choose them

1:35:23.920 --> 1:35:27.960
<v Speaker 2>based on what you're thinking you want to experience and

1:35:27.960 --> 1:35:30.000
<v Speaker 2>what you want the outcome to beate.

1:35:30.920 --> 1:35:33.320
<v Speaker 1>And do you still shoot film sometimes?

1:35:33.840 --> 1:35:37.439
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes I have a refrigerator full of it, Yeah, all

1:35:37.520 --> 1:35:40.400
<v Speaker 2>ready to go. But I don't like the idea of

1:35:40.439 --> 1:35:43.320
<v Speaker 2>then you scan it you know, because everyone wants to

1:35:43.400 --> 1:35:44.760
<v Speaker 2>look at it digital, right?

1:35:46.160 --> 1:35:48.360
<v Speaker 1>And what editing program do you use?

1:35:49.400 --> 1:35:55.720
<v Speaker 2>Lightroom okay? And also photo Mechanic, And what's.

1:35:55.479 --> 1:36:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Your opinion about the ability to edit pictures so much?

1:36:02.880 --> 1:36:05.360
<v Speaker 1>It's like, you know, I'm just even on a user level.

1:36:06.040 --> 1:36:08.639
<v Speaker 1>Google introduced a new pixel where you can do all

1:36:08.720 --> 1:36:12.360
<v Speaker 1>kinds of things, eliminating people from the picture, putting people in.

1:36:12.400 --> 1:36:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Do you have a philosophy on that? No.

1:36:16.120 --> 1:36:19.320
<v Speaker 2>I actually did a body of work of self portraits

1:36:19.840 --> 1:36:28.320
<v Speaker 2>where I photographed windows in New York City because it

1:36:28.439 --> 1:36:34.519
<v Speaker 2>was the whole series was an investigation into identity and

1:36:34.680 --> 1:36:37.040
<v Speaker 2>how do we pick what we're going to wear, what

1:36:37.080 --> 1:36:43.720
<v Speaker 2>we want to look like, what are our body models?

1:36:43.760 --> 1:36:49.400
<v Speaker 2>And in it nothing is really real. I remove things

1:36:49.439 --> 1:36:54.360
<v Speaker 2>from the window and then I add other photographs, so

1:36:54.400 --> 1:36:56.840
<v Speaker 2>when you look at the final photograph, it looks like

1:36:56.920 --> 1:36:59.800
<v Speaker 2>it's one photograph, but it could be one hundred photographs.

1:37:00.040 --> 1:37:05.240
<v Speaker 2>I was creating images which question what's real from what's imagined.

1:37:06.720 --> 1:37:10.040
<v Speaker 2>Starting in like two thousand, I started working on that

1:37:10.200 --> 1:37:15.360
<v Speaker 2>series and did it seriously and intently for ten years.

1:37:17.000 --> 1:37:22.479
<v Speaker 2>And so how I feel about it is if an

1:37:22.600 --> 1:37:29.000
<v Speaker 2>artist wants to use that to make work which is

1:37:29.040 --> 1:37:34.560
<v Speaker 2>a certain kind of expression of their ideas, that's their choice.

1:37:35.439 --> 1:37:39.479
<v Speaker 2>Me I spent enough time in front of the computer

1:37:39.600 --> 1:37:45.840
<v Speaker 2>screen for ten years that I'm just not interested in

1:37:46.960 --> 1:37:56.560
<v Speaker 2>changing up reality and doesn't I'm done.

1:37:55.560 --> 1:37:58.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, tell my audience about the Worldhole case, which went

1:37:58.320 --> 1:37:59.639
<v Speaker 1>all the way to the Supreme Court.

1:38:02.240 --> 1:38:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, there are often people, whether it's on social media

1:38:10.439 --> 1:38:21.240
<v Speaker 2>or individuals who think that they can make work from

1:38:21.600 --> 1:38:28.640
<v Speaker 2>your work that don't really understand the cost and what

1:38:28.840 --> 1:38:35.280
<v Speaker 2>goes into making that original image and the relationships. And

1:38:35.400 --> 1:38:40.800
<v Speaker 2>so I've always been quite protective of my copyright. And

1:38:41.240 --> 1:38:49.000
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty four, an image of an image that

1:38:49.120 --> 1:38:53.040
<v Speaker 2>I had made in nineteen eighty one of the artist

1:38:53.240 --> 1:39:03.320
<v Speaker 2>Prince was used for an an artist illustration one time

1:39:03.439 --> 1:39:08.920
<v Speaker 2>in Vanity Fair. I was unaware of it, and I

1:39:08.960 --> 1:39:12.280
<v Speaker 2>didn't know who the artist was. I had an agency

1:39:12.439 --> 1:39:18.839
<v Speaker 2>that licensed rights to my pictures and to other people's pictures,

1:39:19.760 --> 1:39:24.479
<v Speaker 2>and so when Prince died in twenty sixteen. I saw

1:39:26.360 --> 1:39:30.639
<v Speaker 2>this image of prints on the cover of what's called

1:39:30.640 --> 1:39:33.920
<v Speaker 2>a boocasine that Vanity Fair puts out. It's when the

1:39:33.960 --> 1:39:38.920
<v Speaker 2>whole addition is dedicated, you know, to a specific artist.

1:39:39.760 --> 1:39:44.080
<v Speaker 2>They call them bookasines, even though it's amagazine, and so

1:39:45.680 --> 1:39:54.840
<v Speaker 2>it looked familiar to me, and I went through my No,

1:39:54.960 --> 1:39:57.160
<v Speaker 2>I know what I did look familiar to me, So

1:39:57.200 --> 1:40:02.120
<v Speaker 2>I put it in Google Images and up came the

1:40:02.360 --> 1:40:06.479
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article. That's how I knew

1:40:06.520 --> 1:40:10.439
<v Speaker 2>like it is mine because my credit was there in

1:40:10.479 --> 1:40:18.559
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen eighty four publication. And so I went and

1:40:18.600 --> 1:40:21.960
<v Speaker 2>I looked for my invoice that had been made out

1:40:22.000 --> 1:40:26.519
<v Speaker 2>to Vanity Fair and the submission for any paperwork, which

1:40:26.680 --> 1:40:29.439
<v Speaker 2>I save all of that because I'm well aware of

1:40:29.560 --> 1:40:37.679
<v Speaker 2>how that can determine rights to your work. And called

1:40:37.760 --> 1:40:41.720
<v Speaker 2>up the Warhol Foundation and explained that it had just

1:40:41.840 --> 1:40:45.240
<v Speaker 2>come to my attention and that I'd like to talk

1:40:45.320 --> 1:40:49.080
<v Speaker 2>to them about this. And I sent them the picture

1:40:49.439 --> 1:40:57.560
<v Speaker 2>the invoice, and I said, you know, I'd like to

1:40:57.600 --> 1:41:01.640
<v Speaker 2>find out what else you done with it other than this,

1:41:03.040 --> 1:41:06.840
<v Speaker 2>because no one ever licensed any rights from me, and

1:41:07.640 --> 1:41:11.360
<v Speaker 2>to make a long story short, they did what's called

1:41:11.400 --> 1:41:16.559
<v Speaker 2>a preemptive lawsuit. They sued me in federal court and

1:41:16.600 --> 1:41:21.479
<v Speaker 2>then basically offered me a very small amount of money

1:41:21.560 --> 1:41:27.280
<v Speaker 2>and if I would give them my copyright and otherwise,

1:41:27.880 --> 1:41:34.200
<v Speaker 2>I should realize that they have very deep pockets and

1:41:34.240 --> 1:41:37.479
<v Speaker 2>that they no matter what court I win in, they

1:41:37.520 --> 1:41:40.920
<v Speaker 2>will continue to appeal it all the way to the

1:41:40.960 --> 1:41:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court, and that could cost me millions of dollars.

1:41:46.320 --> 1:41:50.479
<v Speaker 1>Just so my audience understand, Andy Whirlhole essentially had painted

1:41:50.520 --> 1:41:53.439
<v Speaker 1>on top of your photo, and that's what we're talking about.

1:41:54.520 --> 1:41:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, he made a silk screen, and the process of

1:41:57.040 --> 1:41:59.799
<v Speaker 2>making a silk screen you take a black and white

1:42:00.360 --> 1:42:02.840
<v Speaker 2>there's a high contrast of it, and then you take

1:42:02.880 --> 1:42:05.519
<v Speaker 2>these inks and you go over it, and then you

1:42:05.560 --> 1:42:08.000
<v Speaker 2>could put paint on it if you want it, but

1:42:08.600 --> 1:42:12.920
<v Speaker 2>it starts that. That's more or less the process. And

1:42:14.320 --> 1:42:18.000
<v Speaker 2>it was licensed for one time print use in one

1:42:18.320 --> 1:42:22.800
<v Speaker 2>edition of Vanity Fair. I had no idea that there

1:42:22.920 --> 1:42:27.759
<v Speaker 2>were sixteen silk screens and a range of other things

1:42:27.800 --> 1:42:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that had happened with it. You know, Andy Air re

1:42:32.000 --> 1:42:37.960
<v Speaker 2>licensediff from me, and nobody else had either, you know, So.

1:42:40.439 --> 1:42:47.639
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, so they basically have a preemptive lawsuit, basically saying

1:42:48.840 --> 1:42:52.520
<v Speaker 1>take this offer or will bury you in paper and costs.

1:42:52.920 --> 1:42:56.559
<v Speaker 2>That's right, And the paper was filled with a bunch

1:42:56.600 --> 1:43:00.600
<v Speaker 2>of lies, which really got me upset. Said that I

1:43:00.800 --> 1:43:04.320
<v Speaker 2>tried to extort them, which is absolutely not true. They

1:43:04.360 --> 1:43:07.040
<v Speaker 2>didn't use the black and white image that I sent them.

1:43:07.080 --> 1:43:10.080
<v Speaker 2>They used a color image, and they showed in the

1:43:10.760 --> 1:43:14.200
<v Speaker 2>federal court documents how the color image the head was

1:43:14.280 --> 1:43:17.280
<v Speaker 2>turned a little bit. Well, it wasn't the color image.

1:43:17.320 --> 1:43:19.760
<v Speaker 2>It was a black and white image. In addition, they

1:43:19.800 --> 1:43:23.880
<v Speaker 2>showed the nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article and they

1:43:23.960 --> 1:43:29.880
<v Speaker 2>removed my name. It was all so gangster like and

1:43:30.800 --> 1:43:35.080
<v Speaker 2>bullying that I just said, hey, I got to stand

1:43:35.160 --> 1:43:38.240
<v Speaker 2>up and fight this. And I thought to myself, you know,

1:43:38.320 --> 1:43:44.639
<v Speaker 2>I keep hearing from so many artists, whether they are musicians, writers, photographers,

1:43:45.240 --> 1:43:48.679
<v Speaker 2>who are sick of people just taking their stuff. I'm

1:43:48.720 --> 1:43:52.400
<v Speaker 2>going to have a go fund me because what's important

1:43:52.439 --> 1:43:57.360
<v Speaker 2>here is that we tighten up the definition of what

1:43:57.680 --> 1:44:05.240
<v Speaker 2>is fair use. It's very clear in you know, in

1:44:05.680 --> 1:44:11.800
<v Speaker 2>the in the legal definition. However, in my opinion, but

1:44:12.880 --> 1:44:18.959
<v Speaker 2>there have been various court rulings where the person fighting

1:44:19.000 --> 1:44:23.200
<v Speaker 2>it maybe didn't have real good representation, and it kept

1:44:23.240 --> 1:44:29.160
<v Speaker 2>making the definition of fair use more broad, more and

1:44:29.280 --> 1:44:35.639
<v Speaker 2>more broad, and I just you know, this lawsuit started

1:44:35.720 --> 1:44:42.400
<v Speaker 2>in the era of the presidency of Donald Trump, and

1:44:42.479 --> 1:44:47.080
<v Speaker 2>I just couldn't take any more bullying, pushing around threats

1:44:47.120 --> 1:44:51.160
<v Speaker 2>of lawsuits, and I said, I'm going to make this

1:44:51.240 --> 1:44:55.160
<v Speaker 2>go fund me and if every even every professional photographer,

1:44:55.160 --> 1:44:58.439
<v Speaker 2>of which there's one hundred and ninety thousand listed in

1:44:58.479 --> 1:45:04.439
<v Speaker 2>the United States alone, ten dollars, I'd be in good shape.

1:45:04.920 --> 1:45:08.880
<v Speaker 2>And so unfortunately the GoFundMe, which is still there, if

1:45:08.880 --> 1:45:12.920
<v Speaker 2>any of your listeners feel that they have a responsibility

1:45:13.000 --> 1:45:19.720
<v Speaker 2>too to uh stand up and fight for copyright, I

1:45:19.800 --> 1:45:21.920
<v Speaker 2>made it clear that there was no money in my

1:45:22.040 --> 1:45:25.600
<v Speaker 2>GoFundMe for me to make and that should I be

1:45:25.680 --> 1:45:30.599
<v Speaker 2>awarded any fees, that I would start a legal fund

1:45:30.760 --> 1:45:36.040
<v Speaker 2>for other artists who you know, don't have the ability

1:45:36.160 --> 1:45:41.719
<v Speaker 2>to you know, to fight this kind of fight. Anyway,

1:45:42.400 --> 1:45:45.080
<v Speaker 2>it went, as we know, all the way to the

1:45:45.120 --> 1:45:48.280
<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court, which was seven years. It was a lot

1:45:48.320 --> 1:45:55.240
<v Speaker 2>of my time. It was stressful, it was financially very stressful,

1:45:55.320 --> 1:46:01.600
<v Speaker 2>and unfortunately, the go fundme to date has raised about

1:46:02.320 --> 1:46:07.040
<v Speaker 2>sixty eight thousand dollars, which is nowhere near what it

1:46:07.200 --> 1:46:10.559
<v Speaker 2>costs to fight to take it all the way. But

1:46:10.680 --> 1:46:15.360
<v Speaker 2>I do you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't change my

1:46:15.920 --> 1:46:20.240
<v Speaker 2>decision because I felt like I couldn't live with myself

1:46:20.400 --> 1:46:24.480
<v Speaker 2>if I just back down. It's not who I am.

1:46:25.240 --> 1:46:28.560
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I sang Tom Petty's song to myself

1:46:29.960 --> 1:46:36.400
<v Speaker 2>a number of times, and you know, and it's still

1:46:36.400 --> 1:46:39.559
<v Speaker 2>not over with because it goes to the district court now,

1:46:40.120 --> 1:46:45.080
<v Speaker 2>who decides if there are damages, and the Warhol people

1:46:45.080 --> 1:46:49.439
<v Speaker 2>are threatening other things. So you know, I'll be glad

1:46:49.479 --> 1:46:54.519
<v Speaker 2>when it's all over. But you know, it wasn't just

1:46:54.600 --> 1:47:01.240
<v Speaker 2>a matter of me paying the legal these necessary to

1:47:01.320 --> 1:47:04.920
<v Speaker 2>the level of lawyer that can fight, the level of

1:47:05.080 --> 1:47:15.080
<v Speaker 2>lawyer that the foundation hires. But it's also about being

1:47:15.120 --> 1:47:19.400
<v Speaker 2>able to kind of look at myself in the mirror,

1:47:20.960 --> 1:47:27.960
<v Speaker 2>and you know, just feeling like if you don't stand

1:47:28.080 --> 1:47:30.920
<v Speaker 2>up for your rights, you lose your rights. I've said

1:47:30.920 --> 1:47:35.400
<v Speaker 2>that for a long time to other photographers, to other artists,

1:47:35.680 --> 1:47:38.160
<v Speaker 2>and it's like here I was, you know, in a

1:47:38.200 --> 1:47:43.320
<v Speaker 2>position of risking everything because should I have lost, they

1:47:43.320 --> 1:47:47.000
<v Speaker 2>were also suing me for their legal fees, so it

1:47:47.120 --> 1:47:51.559
<v Speaker 2>would have eaten up. I would not have a condo

1:47:51.720 --> 1:47:55.080
<v Speaker 2>in Aspen or a condo in New York. I wouldn't

1:47:55.080 --> 1:47:58.679
<v Speaker 2>even have a house in Nashville. I'd be on the street.

1:47:59.360 --> 1:48:04.439
<v Speaker 2>So there was really a lot of risk for me.

1:48:05.560 --> 1:48:07.120
<v Speaker 1>So how much are you out of pocket on the

1:48:07.200 --> 1:48:07.879
<v Speaker 1>legal fees?

1:48:08.760 --> 1:48:13.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, some of the legal fees are pro bono. So

1:48:15.320 --> 1:48:19.799
<v Speaker 2>the total bill comes to about three point four million

1:48:19.880 --> 1:48:24.080
<v Speaker 2>dollars and I'm probably out about half a million.

1:48:24.880 --> 1:48:30.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, just so my audience knows. Describe the Ultimate Supreme

1:48:30.960 --> 1:48:31.719
<v Speaker 1>Court decision.

1:48:34.200 --> 1:48:39.880
<v Speaker 2>The Ultimate Supreme Court decision tightens up what is transformative

1:48:40.120 --> 1:48:44.920
<v Speaker 2>under the fair use aspect of the copyright law and

1:48:45.400 --> 1:48:48.200
<v Speaker 2>how that affects us. If you go to the go fundme,

1:48:48.720 --> 1:48:55.280
<v Speaker 2>it's gofunme dot com slash Warhol vs. Goldsmith. I explain

1:48:55.439 --> 1:48:59.559
<v Speaker 2>and show how in all the arts, if I were

1:48:59.600 --> 1:49:04.360
<v Speaker 2>to have lost this, okay, it would mean that if

1:49:04.360 --> 1:49:07.000
<v Speaker 2>it was a song or another picture, you could just

1:49:07.360 --> 1:49:11.280
<v Speaker 2>turn it another color, draw a circle around it, change

1:49:11.280 --> 1:49:13.759
<v Speaker 2>a word or two here or there in a script,

1:49:14.280 --> 1:49:17.400
<v Speaker 2>and you lose your copyright. And I really feel that

1:49:17.720 --> 1:49:23.880
<v Speaker 2>copyrights are what has enabled our American culture to be

1:49:24.120 --> 1:49:28.600
<v Speaker 2>so strong and so powerful, and what are we but

1:49:28.800 --> 1:49:32.560
<v Speaker 2>our culture? You know, I want to be in places

1:49:33.160 --> 1:49:35.160
<v Speaker 2>where that's valued.

1:49:35.640 --> 1:49:38.959
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So just to nail it down, the Supreme Court

1:49:39.400 --> 1:49:42.520
<v Speaker 1>ultimately ruled in your favor and said it was infringement.

1:49:43.360 --> 1:49:45.599
<v Speaker 2>Yes, okay.

1:49:46.280 --> 1:49:50.479
<v Speaker 1>So today, at this laid date, how much are you

1:49:50.640 --> 1:49:54.080
<v Speaker 1>working and are you doing it the same way making

1:49:54.160 --> 1:49:56.160
<v Speaker 1>pictures and then monetizing them.

1:49:57.240 --> 1:50:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm painting and then I'll just side. You know,

1:50:01.640 --> 1:50:05.719
<v Speaker 2>if I'm selling my paintings, maybe someone will walk into

1:50:05.760 --> 1:50:10.120
<v Speaker 2>my gallery and want one of my paintings. I work

1:50:10.280 --> 1:50:19.640
<v Speaker 2>to talk about and promote my books. I have gallery shows,

1:50:20.160 --> 1:50:25.760
<v Speaker 2>I have talked you know, I keep busy. Is that

1:50:25.840 --> 1:50:26.639
<v Speaker 2>what you're asking?

1:50:26.880 --> 1:50:31.439
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's partial. And to what degree are you making photographs?

1:50:31.439 --> 1:50:39.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh? This past year probably less than ever, although when

1:50:39.680 --> 1:50:46.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm in Colorado, I'm generally making them almost every day.

1:50:47.920 --> 1:50:52.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Let's go back to thirty odds actually forty years

1:50:52.439 --> 1:50:55.280
<v Speaker 1>ago at this point, what exactly happened between you and

1:50:55.320 --> 1:50:57.439
<v Speaker 1>Bruce Springsteen and Madison Square Garden.

1:50:59.760 --> 1:51:04.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, I was involved with Musicians United for Safe Energy,

1:51:05.680 --> 1:51:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Bruce was not, and I at the time also owned

1:51:11.320 --> 1:51:17.320
<v Speaker 2>a company LGI, a photo agency, and so my company

1:51:18.000 --> 1:51:23.320
<v Speaker 2>paid for MEWS. That was our contribution all the film

1:51:23.360 --> 1:51:28.040
<v Speaker 2>and processing that would be done during rehearsals, during shows,

1:51:28.520 --> 1:51:31.439
<v Speaker 2>handled the press of getting it out there to the

1:51:31.520 --> 1:51:37.160
<v Speaker 2>magazines and newspapers, and worked on selecting what photographers would

1:51:37.160 --> 1:51:43.800
<v Speaker 2>be shooting what during the event. When the event started,

1:51:43.920 --> 1:51:50.400
<v Speaker 2>Bruce decided that he that he was going to join

1:51:50.520 --> 1:51:56.240
<v Speaker 2>in and play. And so we had a meeting, he

1:51:56.400 --> 1:52:00.679
<v Speaker 2>and I because we were broken up and Bruce had

1:52:00.720 --> 1:52:05.960
<v Speaker 2>started dating someone, and I wanted everything to be comfortable.

1:52:06.560 --> 1:52:09.320
<v Speaker 2>So we had a meeting and I said, when you

1:52:09.520 --> 1:52:12.479
<v Speaker 2>get there, which was going to be like nine o'clock

1:52:12.520 --> 1:52:18.799
<v Speaker 2>at night, eight or nine at night, maybe later, I said,

1:52:19.640 --> 1:52:24.040
<v Speaker 2>I will be shooting front stage. I'll put Joel because

1:52:24.040 --> 1:52:26.479
<v Speaker 2>I knew he knew him, you know, backstage with you.

1:52:26.760 --> 1:52:30.080
<v Speaker 2>What I was going to be doing. A typical meeting,

1:52:30.120 --> 1:52:33.559
<v Speaker 2>and that was I thought it was fine with Bruce.

1:52:34.920 --> 1:52:39.320
<v Speaker 2>And then the evening came and there were a few things.

1:52:39.479 --> 1:52:45.559
<v Speaker 2>One Bruce always got incredibly back in those days. He

1:52:45.680 --> 1:52:56.400
<v Speaker 2>got incredibly nervous when playing Madison Square Garden, really nervous. Also,

1:52:56.600 --> 1:53:00.719
<v Speaker 2>it was his thirtieth birthday and he had a whole

1:53:01.080 --> 1:53:04.439
<v Speaker 2>thing about as many young people do, like when I

1:53:04.560 --> 1:53:07.320
<v Speaker 2>turned thirty. So he had a thing about like his

1:53:07.439 --> 1:53:14.519
<v Speaker 2>thirtieth birthday. So anyway, I'm in the front where I

1:53:14.560 --> 1:53:18.439
<v Speaker 2>said I was going to be about thirteen rows back

1:53:18.640 --> 1:53:28.240
<v Speaker 2>with the film crew, and it comes time for I

1:53:28.280 --> 1:53:34.120
<v Speaker 2>think a quarter to three. That was the song. And

1:53:34.200 --> 1:53:40.800
<v Speaker 2>a few things that happened that were very unlike Bruce. One,

1:53:40.920 --> 1:53:45.400
<v Speaker 2>because it was his birthday, someone handed him a cake

1:53:45.600 --> 1:53:48.920
<v Speaker 2>from the audience, and he took the cake and he

1:53:49.080 --> 1:53:52.880
<v Speaker 2>threw it back at the people in the front in

1:53:52.960 --> 1:53:57.479
<v Speaker 2>the audience. Bruce isn't like that. I thought that was

1:53:57.560 --> 1:54:01.679
<v Speaker 2>weird because he would't want to like get cake all

1:54:01.680 --> 1:54:06.960
<v Speaker 2>over people. And then on Promised Land he threw his

1:54:07.120 --> 1:54:12.519
<v Speaker 2>harmonica with real kind of anger into the audience. And

1:54:12.720 --> 1:54:17.400
<v Speaker 2>that in the early days with Bruce, I being how

1:54:17.439 --> 1:54:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I was like with Grand Funk and everything, It's like,

1:54:20.240 --> 1:54:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I think it would be a good idea, like to

1:54:22.120 --> 1:54:26.040
<v Speaker 2>throw your harmonica, you know, bluh ohhh. And he got

1:54:26.080 --> 1:54:29.480
<v Speaker 2>real mad at me and said that could hurt somebody,

1:54:29.920 --> 1:54:32.520
<v Speaker 2>you know. I was like, oh yeah, I wasn't thinking that.

1:54:32.600 --> 1:54:35.360
<v Speaker 2>I was just thinking of like the picture and what

1:54:35.400 --> 1:54:41.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to do here, and so I think that

1:54:42.080 --> 1:54:49.600
<v Speaker 2>when you're young, and you are you've had a very

1:54:49.600 --> 1:54:57.280
<v Speaker 2>close relationship with someone that if you're going to freak out,

1:54:57.320 --> 1:55:04.560
<v Speaker 2>you're going to freak out on them. And when I

1:55:04.560 --> 1:55:06.880
<v Speaker 2>saw him do those two things that were kind of

1:55:07.000 --> 1:55:10.360
<v Speaker 2>violent and not like him. He bent down on one

1:55:10.440 --> 1:55:18.720
<v Speaker 2>knee and he went like this with toll yeah, curling

1:55:18.800 --> 1:55:22.080
<v Speaker 2>his finger and the look in his eye look crazy,

1:55:22.720 --> 1:55:24.960
<v Speaker 2>and the house lights were on. So I just grabbed

1:55:25.040 --> 1:55:28.280
<v Speaker 2>up my camera bag and I started running down the

1:55:28.360 --> 1:55:32.520
<v Speaker 2>aisle and Bruce jumped off the stage and chased me

1:55:32.640 --> 1:55:39.120
<v Speaker 2>down and twisted my arm behind my back, and I

1:55:39.240 --> 1:55:43.960
<v Speaker 2>kept saying, don't do this, don't do this, and anyway,

1:55:45.600 --> 1:55:49.360
<v Speaker 2>he pulled me up on stage. Mind you, for a

1:55:49.440 --> 1:55:53.680
<v Speaker 2>long time in our relationship, I did not want anyone

1:55:53.760 --> 1:55:58.280
<v Speaker 2>to know that Bruce was my boyfriend because I want

1:55:58.320 --> 1:56:03.480
<v Speaker 2>to be Lyn Boltsmith and I don't want Uh. I

1:56:03.560 --> 1:56:06.000
<v Speaker 2>was I was sensitive about that. I shouldn't have been,

1:56:06.120 --> 1:56:09.720
<v Speaker 2>because I should care less what people who I don't

1:56:10.080 --> 1:56:13.760
<v Speaker 2>know or really care about think, unlike what the person

1:56:14.440 --> 1:56:19.000
<v Speaker 2>you love things. And so I was incapable of being

1:56:19.080 --> 1:56:27.480
<v Speaker 2>really supportive of Bruce when he needed it. And uh, anyway,

1:56:27.600 --> 1:56:31.680
<v Speaker 2>he jumped off the stage, twisted my arm and threw

1:56:31.760 --> 1:56:34.600
<v Speaker 2>me off the side of the stage. It was a

1:56:34.640 --> 1:56:38.680
<v Speaker 2>bad moment as far as you know, I'm concerned in

1:56:39.400 --> 1:56:44.480
<v Speaker 2>h not just for me. It was quite shocking for me,

1:56:46.640 --> 1:56:52.000
<v Speaker 2>but I don't, you know, I kind of think that

1:56:52.200 --> 1:56:58.640
<v Speaker 2>sometimes people who were in love or were close behave

1:56:58.720 --> 1:57:07.440
<v Speaker 2>in ways that they wouldn't normally behave. And it's just

1:57:07.520 --> 1:57:10.560
<v Speaker 2>really sad that this was in front of twenty thousand

1:57:10.640 --> 1:57:14.360
<v Speaker 2>people and that it horrified me. And then the next

1:57:14.440 --> 1:57:17.760
<v Speaker 2>day there were headlines in the paper, the New York

1:57:17.800 --> 1:57:21.560
<v Speaker 2>Post about how I was suing Bruce. I never sued Bruce.

1:57:22.800 --> 1:57:25.320
<v Speaker 2>All of that stuff is like people make it up,

1:57:25.920 --> 1:57:28.440
<v Speaker 2>and people made up for years that, like I was

1:57:28.520 --> 1:57:36.560
<v Speaker 2>blacklisted from Columbia from anyone hiring me at CBS. But

1:57:36.680 --> 1:57:40.400
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't about to go like, hey, you know, I'm

1:57:40.400 --> 1:57:42.600
<v Speaker 2>the one who spent which is a lot of money,

1:57:43.040 --> 1:57:47.840
<v Speaker 2>ten thousand dollars, like on photographer's film processing, getting all

1:57:47.880 --> 1:57:50.840
<v Speaker 2>this stuff out there, doing all this work, giving my time.

1:57:51.240 --> 1:57:54.520
<v Speaker 2>This guy comes in at the end treats me like that, which,

1:57:54.560 --> 1:57:56.920
<v Speaker 2>by the way, when he threw me off to the side,

1:57:57.080 --> 1:57:59.960
<v Speaker 2>the other people who did run it like Danny Goldberg,

1:58:00.280 --> 1:58:04.160
<v Speaker 2>they were all part of Muse Elliott Roberts. They were

1:58:04.240 --> 1:58:08.600
<v Speaker 2>like pulling on one arm saying you can't throw her out,

1:58:08.920 --> 1:58:12.920
<v Speaker 2>and on the other arm was like security people. And

1:58:13.000 --> 1:58:16.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I just want to go home, Okay, just

1:58:16.360 --> 1:58:23.160
<v Speaker 2>want to go home. So it's a very unpleasant memory

1:58:23.760 --> 1:58:28.000
<v Speaker 2>for me that many people have their own take on.

1:58:28.720 --> 1:58:30.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, they say they were there. I've sat at

1:58:30.760 --> 1:58:35.120
<v Speaker 2>dinner tables where people are telling the story and obviously

1:58:35.160 --> 1:58:38.760
<v Speaker 2>they were not listening when I was introduced to them,

1:58:38.920 --> 1:58:41.960
<v Speaker 2>and they'll say, you know, something will come up. This

1:58:42.040 --> 1:58:45.040
<v Speaker 2>hasn't happened in many years, but back then, so I

1:58:45.160 --> 1:58:47.480
<v Speaker 2>was there. I was sitting behind her. She jumped up

1:58:47.520 --> 1:58:50.960
<v Speaker 2>on stage. Blah blah blah blah blah. So people are

1:58:51.000 --> 1:58:54.760
<v Speaker 2>going to make up whatever they want. Bottom line, I

1:58:54.880 --> 1:59:00.160
<v Speaker 2>perceive it as a moment that Bruce lost it, and

1:59:00.240 --> 1:59:04.960
<v Speaker 2>because I'm it's the way you are kind of with

1:59:05.120 --> 1:59:11.400
<v Speaker 2>family that nobody else should ever see, and you know,

1:59:11.960 --> 1:59:16.560
<v Speaker 2>so it's a it's a real unpleasant memory for me

1:59:16.800 --> 1:59:25.160
<v Speaker 2>because I feel like I'm blamed. I didn't do anything.

1:59:25.960 --> 1:59:31.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, when was the next time you had contact with him?

1:59:32.680 --> 1:59:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Actually it was I don't know if it was a

1:59:34.840 --> 1:59:38.760
<v Speaker 2>year or two later. I didn't talk to him for

1:59:38.840 --> 1:59:43.400
<v Speaker 2>a while, and then I was staying at the Sunset Marquis,

1:59:43.880 --> 1:59:47.480
<v Speaker 2>and I think it was a year later. I was

1:59:47.480 --> 1:59:51.800
<v Speaker 2>staying at the Sunset Marquis and the room above me

1:59:52.720 --> 1:59:58.280
<v Speaker 2>was playing music really loud, right, So I called up,

1:59:58.520 --> 2:00:02.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, one room flight up and I said, you know,

2:00:02.640 --> 2:00:08.320
<v Speaker 2>can you lower the music? And and it was Bruce.

2:00:10.080 --> 2:00:12.880
<v Speaker 2>So he said, you know, come on, let's meet and talk.

2:00:13.840 --> 2:00:16.200
<v Speaker 2>And that's what we did.

2:00:17.720 --> 2:00:19.960
<v Speaker 1>How did the relationship end.

2:00:21.880 --> 2:00:22.320
<v Speaker 2>Nicely?

2:00:22.480 --> 2:00:27.080
<v Speaker 1>I thought, Okay, we've all broken up. Everybody says it's mutual,

2:00:27.280 --> 2:00:29.520
<v Speaker 1>but it's always somebody wants to break.

2:00:29.280 --> 2:00:33.720
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't mutual. It wasn't mutual. I didn't want to

2:00:33.760 --> 2:00:37.480
<v Speaker 2>be in the relationship anymore. And I think that's part

2:00:37.480 --> 2:00:41.320
<v Speaker 2>of why what happened at Madison Square Garden happened. When

2:00:41.360 --> 2:00:43.640
<v Speaker 2>he pulled me up on stage and said, I want

2:00:43.640 --> 2:00:46.320
<v Speaker 2>you to meet my ex girlfriend, He's like announcing it,

2:00:46.400 --> 2:00:48.520
<v Speaker 2>you know where it's like I had like tried keeping

2:00:48.560 --> 2:00:58.760
<v Speaker 2>it secret, right, and uh, it wasn't mutual. I felt

2:00:58.840 --> 2:01:08.920
<v Speaker 2>that Bruce really needed someone who was capable of really

2:01:09.040 --> 2:01:17.240
<v Speaker 2>being there for him, and that wasn't me, uh you know,

2:01:17.360 --> 2:01:19.920
<v Speaker 2>like he really wanted me in La one time. And

2:01:19.960 --> 2:01:23.240
<v Speaker 2>it's like I've got a shoot to do with Frankie Badley,

2:01:23.400 --> 2:01:26.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm not coming there, you know. And it's like, you

2:01:26.400 --> 2:01:30.120
<v Speaker 2>love someone they're nervous about something, What is that so important?

2:01:30.160 --> 2:01:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Go be there with them, support them? You know? Is

2:01:35.800 --> 2:01:40.680
<v Speaker 2>so h It's just young love, you know. But for me,

2:01:40.920 --> 2:01:45.120
<v Speaker 2>I was very clear in my own mind, not only

2:01:45.200 --> 2:01:48.200
<v Speaker 2>about the career that I wanted to have and that

2:01:48.280 --> 2:01:51.280
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want to get married and the rest of it,

2:01:52.440 --> 2:02:00.760
<v Speaker 2>but that I I didn't I didn't if I were

2:02:01.920 --> 2:02:08.400
<v Speaker 2>to be missus. I mean I used to that poor guy.

2:02:08.600 --> 2:02:14.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean I remember, uh we Robert Hilbert, the critic,

2:02:14.480 --> 2:02:21.600
<v Speaker 2>was a friend of mine, and yeah, and we were

2:02:22.040 --> 2:02:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Bruce and I were at the movies or something, and

2:02:25.000 --> 2:02:27.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, we'd be standing in line at the movies,

2:02:27.160 --> 2:02:29.120
<v Speaker 2>and like I think I saw Robert and I pulled

2:02:29.120 --> 2:02:32.160
<v Speaker 2>my hand out of Bruce's, you know, like I don't

2:02:32.160 --> 2:02:35.320
<v Speaker 2>want to be seen holding his hand, you know. And

2:02:37.720 --> 2:02:41.960
<v Speaker 2>then Roberts saw us. He said, oh hi, and and

2:02:42.040 --> 2:02:47.440
<v Speaker 2>he proceeded to just look and talk to Bruce, not

2:02:47.680 --> 2:02:51.680
<v Speaker 2>to me. Okay, And for wherever I was at at

2:02:51.720 --> 2:02:55.360
<v Speaker 2>the time. Poor b I don't say anything. Poor Bruce.

2:02:55.440 --> 2:02:57.960
<v Speaker 2>We get home and he's got to listen to me

2:02:58.120 --> 2:03:00.960
<v Speaker 2>go on about I can't believe that he didn't say

2:03:01.000 --> 2:03:03.720
<v Speaker 2>he just talks to you. They think you're so important.

2:03:03.760 --> 2:03:07.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm smarter than you are, you know, I mean that,

2:03:07.840 --> 2:03:15.800
<v Speaker 2>poor guy, you know, I know. So I feel really

2:03:17.200 --> 2:03:22.600
<v Speaker 2>blessed that I had that kind of you know, very

2:03:22.760 --> 2:03:31.080
<v Speaker 2>strong love and companion at a point in my life.

2:03:31.120 --> 2:03:35.960
<v Speaker 2>And what I learned from it, and I always knew like,

2:03:36.360 --> 2:03:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be married to somebody who's on

2:03:38.680 --> 2:03:42.000
<v Speaker 2>the road. I don't want that life. You know. It's

2:03:42.360 --> 2:03:44.880
<v Speaker 2>one of the reasons I didn't continue on with will

2:03:44.960 --> 2:03:49.240
<v Speaker 2>Powers when will Powers had success. I don't really want

2:03:49.280 --> 2:03:51.400
<v Speaker 2>to do that. I don't want to spend my time,

2:03:52.160 --> 2:03:57.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, backstage and all of that. It just it

2:03:57.600 --> 2:03:59.240
<v Speaker 2>seems like a waste of a life.

2:04:00.240 --> 2:04:01.600
<v Speaker 1>How long were you with Bruce?

2:04:01.640 --> 2:04:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Alltold, I don't talk about it or count it. It

2:04:07.160 --> 2:04:09.400
<v Speaker 2>wasn't really that long when you look at the length

2:04:09.440 --> 2:04:10.920
<v Speaker 2>of our lives.

2:04:11.720 --> 2:04:16.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so I know enough very successful people they always say,

2:04:16.800 --> 2:04:20.640
<v Speaker 1>oh I was lucky, etc. But they have to be

2:04:20.760 --> 2:04:24.480
<v Speaker 1>incredibly driven and there has to be something about their personality.

2:04:24.720 --> 2:04:28.280
<v Speaker 1>We've established that you're driven, But are you the type

2:04:28.280 --> 2:04:32.080
<v Speaker 1>of person who was a great networker or was it

2:04:32.160 --> 2:04:35.440
<v Speaker 1>like with Frank Zappa, whenever you saw an opportunity, you

2:04:35.600 --> 2:04:38.080
<v Speaker 1>had the guts to go ask someone to do something.

2:04:38.520 --> 2:04:40.440
<v Speaker 1>What was what made you so succesul?

2:04:40.480 --> 2:04:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I don't think I was a networker, you know,

2:04:43.400 --> 2:04:48.520
<v Speaker 2>that's not my thing. I think that I get an

2:04:48.560 --> 2:04:51.680
<v Speaker 2>idea I want to work with somebody or I want

2:04:51.760 --> 2:04:54.680
<v Speaker 2>to do something, and then I try to make it happen.

2:04:56.160 --> 2:04:58.320
<v Speaker 1>And to what lengths will you go to make it happen.

2:05:01.040 --> 2:05:03.840
<v Speaker 2>I'll put it out there and if it comes back,

2:05:04.320 --> 2:05:08.640
<v Speaker 2>that's great, and if it doesn't, that's fine because there's

2:05:08.680 --> 2:05:12.760
<v Speaker 2>always something else. It's not like that's the only thing

2:05:12.840 --> 2:05:18.040
<v Speaker 2>out there, you know. That's how I feel about it. Yeah,

2:05:18.960 --> 2:05:27.040
<v Speaker 2>otherwise you you'd keep on pushing, you know, and I

2:05:27.080 --> 2:05:30.080
<v Speaker 2>haven't really had to do that.

2:05:33.120 --> 2:05:36.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, then I think we've covered it.

2:05:36.480 --> 2:05:37.240
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

2:05:37.920 --> 2:05:39.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, there's a lot more we can

2:05:39.400 --> 2:05:41.840
<v Speaker 1>go into, but I think we hit the surface, went

2:05:41.960 --> 2:05:44.840
<v Speaker 1>down a little bit deeper. So I want to thank

2:05:44.880 --> 2:05:48.880
<v Speaker 1>you for taking the time with my audience of course.

2:05:48.600 --> 2:05:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, I appreciate that you that Eric put us together

2:05:53.160 --> 2:05:56.160
<v Speaker 2>and that you took so much time too.

2:05:57.520 --> 2:06:00.600
<v Speaker 1>That's Eric Brazilian, well known for right eating one of

2:06:00.680 --> 2:06:03.160
<v Speaker 1>us and being a member of the Hooters, who connected

2:06:03.200 --> 2:06:06.760
<v Speaker 1>me and Lynn and any event. Thanks so much, Lynn,

2:06:07.160 --> 2:06:09.960
<v Speaker 1>till next time. This is Bob left sex