1 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Starts podcast. 2 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: My guest today is photographer Lynn Goldsmith. Lynn, you have 3 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: two new books. Tell me about that. 4 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 2: Well, one of them came out in October of twenty 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 2: twenty three, which is a book called Music in the Eighties, 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: and the other book isn't out yet, it'll be out 7 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: by November first, and that's a deluxe tashi and publication 8 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: on Bruce Springsteen and the East Street Band with the 9 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 2: possibility of you know, buying a print with the book. 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 2: It's different than the Music in the Eighties book, which 11 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: is Rizzoli, and that's a kind of normal what we 12 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 2: call trade coffee table photo book. And the Book of 13 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: the Eighties was actually a book that I never intended 14 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: on doing because I really didn't want to think about 15 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: the eighties. I had a pretty bad attitude. And it 16 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 2: was only because my publisher really wanted me to put 17 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: something together that I realized what an amazing musical decade 18 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 2: it was in terms of so many different types of 19 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 2: music all gaining real popularity. You know, wasn't just like 20 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: jazz was in the background. Herbie Hancock was having you know, 21 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: his probably biggest time in terms of selling records as 22 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 2: well as Miles Davis's record, But then you had all 23 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: this new electronic music along with rap, you know, with 24 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: the Beastie Boys. So as I went through it and 25 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: I realized just how free and open and how many 26 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: things were possible in that decade, it got me off 27 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: of thinking about the bad fashion and the bad hair, 28 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: which it kind of turned me off to the eighties. 29 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: Now, your other book is about Springsteen. Why Springsteen? Now, 30 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: you had a love relationship with him, but that was 31 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: in the past. Why now? 32 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: Because Benedictashin of Tashi in Publications wanted to do a 33 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: Bruce book and I wanted if I was going to 34 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: do something, I wanted it to be Bruce and the 35 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: E Street Band. And I thought that Tashion probably does 36 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: the most beautiful job of production, and so I asked 37 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: Bruce if he wanted, you know, wanted me to do that, 38 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: and he did. So that was why I felt that 39 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: at this time, to kind of bring back a moment 40 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: that happened, you know, almost four decades ago, and which 41 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: is so seminole in how Springsteen fans are so dedicated, 42 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 2: you know, it's part of their dedication, is the whole 43 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: darkness on the edge of town period, which is what 44 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: this book focuses on. 45 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: So why not, Yeah, Okay, I have a couple of 46 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: tash In books, but there were gifts. Tell me a 47 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: little bit more in my addings, a little bit more 48 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: about tashi and how the production, how the deal, how 49 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: many they print. 50 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: Well, it's a limited edition. I think it's fifteen hundred copies, 51 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: and you can buy it with the print or without 52 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: the print, and they're really considered collector's items that hopefully 53 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,839 Speaker 2: increase in value for the buyer. But the real thing 54 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: is does when books are like sacred objects to you 55 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: to create one that's really, you know, kind of like 56 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: a work of art and goes very deep and is 57 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: printed with the best printers in the world, you know, 58 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: that's that's that's a real gift for a photographer. So 59 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 2: tash In books are what we call trade books, which 60 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 2: is what I mentioned on music in the eighties. I 61 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: think the retail price of music in the eighties is 62 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: I don't know, seventy dollars or something. I'm not familiar exactly, 63 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 2: but the tashi In book is usually, you know, like 64 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: fifteen hundred or two thousand dollars, So you have good 65 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 2: friends who gave you books. 66 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: Are books lucrative for you? 67 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: I don't do them to make money. With all the 68 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: time that I put into making the book, I'm thinking 69 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 2: about the fans who I feel deserve deserve the best 70 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: that I, or any photographer who's worked with an artist 71 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 2: that they love can give them. My time could be 72 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: spent making money much quicker without as much struggle. But 73 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: the fact is I also end up with something that 74 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 2: I consider to be a beautiful compilation of my work, 75 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: and that's generally how most photographers are. The publishers know 76 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: full well that we all want books. Artists, whether you're 77 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: a photographer or whether you're Eye Way Way, whoever you are, 78 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: books books add to your cachet, your ego as an 79 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: artist wants to see your work in a book form. 80 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: So the motivations aren't financial ones. They are for the publishers. 81 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: Okay, well, since we've talked about your new books, how 82 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: did you meet Springsteen? 83 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: I met him in nineteen seventy two when Rolling Stone 84 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: assigned me to photograph him for I think the name 85 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: of the article was sign Up a Genius Month or 86 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 2: something like that, something about signing up a genius yeah. 87 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,799 Speaker 1: And you had a romance with him. Was the romance 88 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: immediate or was that years down the line? 89 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: It was years down the line. 90 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: So how did it ultimately turn into a romance? 91 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 2: I guess, like anything else, timing and having an appreciation 92 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: of the other person's humor, their work, and being ready 93 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: or wanting to be in a relationship like anybody else. 94 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: So, since you were there from seventy two, the first 95 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: album came out, Greetings from Asbury Park, The big breakthrough 96 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: is in seventy five. Did you anticipate Bruce would become 97 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: as big as he did? 98 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: Oh? I always thought that Bruce, particularly because of the 99 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: live performances, was different than anybody else. And I would 100 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: have hoped that with his talent and his hard work 101 00:07:53,360 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: and his great desire to really be be it an 102 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: important songwriter, a lyricist, that you know, that he would 103 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: gain that because there's plenty of artists who have become 104 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: quite big that don't necessarily have you know, all of 105 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: those talents. 106 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: Okay, My favorite swing seen albums are the second Wildie, Innocent, 107 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: and Darkness. You know there have been all these documentaries. 108 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: There was one about Darkness. Why did you focus on 109 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: darkness in the book. 110 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: Because I felt that that was a really important time 111 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 2: in Bruce's life, in the life of the East Street Band, 112 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: and it was a seminal moment where, you know, where 113 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: I watched that Bruce could play in Middle America to 114 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: a hall that maybe held three hundred and if he 115 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: was lucky, there were thirty people in the audience. But 116 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: he still did a three or four were our show 117 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: and gave its all, and so did the band. Bruce 118 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: didn't just become who he is on Bruce alone. There's 119 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: the energy of those members who who supported him in 120 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: his real search and struggle to be the best that 121 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: he could be. So my experience during the Darkness on 122 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 2: the Edge of Town made me want to show Bruce's 123 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: relationship with the band. You know, most books on Bruce 124 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: photo books focused just on Bruce, and I understand that, 125 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: but you know, I really feel that there was you know, 126 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,479 Speaker 2: there was it's called Bruce Spreingstein and the Eastreet Band. 127 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: You know, it's not just Bruce Springsteen. And I think 128 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: that's also why Bruce wanted me to do the book. 129 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 2: I think that he wanted to have a record of 130 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: that time. 131 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: Okay, the book about the eighties you were a rock 132 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: fan from a very young age, so you talked about 133 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: the bad heir of the eighties. With this amount of distance, 134 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: how do you feel about the music in the eighties. 135 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: Oh, I, you know, I thought I kind of made 136 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: it clear that when doing the book and realizing all 137 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: the different genres, you know, and I decided to do 138 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: it alphabetically. So you see Banana Rama next to Barry Manilone. 139 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: I mean, there were just I myself had a hit 140 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: in the eighties, at least in the UK as the 141 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 2: recording artist Will Powers, so you know, and that was 142 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: electronic music for the most part. So you know, it's 143 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: it's that there were there was ska music that was 144 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: coming up, and then reggae really sort of exploded in 145 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty when unfortunately, you know, Bob Marley made it 146 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: clear to the world that he had brain cancer and 147 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: not a long time to live. There were a lot 148 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 2: of artists, including you know, the Police, who got a 149 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 2: certain amount of radio airplay and other things which I 150 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: don't know, you know, before before that, reggae was popular 151 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: amongst a certain group of people, but it didn't have 152 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: mass appeal. I'm talking about mass appeal like the way 153 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 2: Madonna had it and Michael Jackson. So you're talking pop 154 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 2: music and then soul music also. So what other decade 155 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: had so many different kinds of popular forms of music. 156 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: I can't think of another. 157 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to the seventies. How did you 158 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: get involved with Grand Funk Railroad. 159 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: I was directing a television show called in Concert for ABC, 160 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: and Joshua White was the main director. And I had 161 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 2: told him because ABC was going to do their first special. 162 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 2: Normally we just did concerts, but they were going to 163 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 2: do with a number of artists, and so this was 164 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 2: going to be the first time that the whole show 165 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 2: was dedicated to one act. And I said that I 166 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 2: wasn't that interested anymore in directing just concerts. I wanted 167 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: to do things, make films that were more documentary. And 168 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 2: so Grand Funk Railroad had just released an album called Phoenix, 169 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: and so I asked josh to speak with ABC about 170 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: me doing a portion of the show at Phoenix House 171 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: with Grand Funk Railroad, and they approved that, and I 172 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: met Andy Cavalieri, who had just started managing them because 173 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 2: they had left their manager, Terry Knight. So I have 174 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 2: had a certain amount of experience in marketing and publicity. 175 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 2: In sixty nine, I did that at Elektra Records, and 176 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 2: I made films for them, and I made radio spots, 177 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: and you know, I understood from the record label aspect 178 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: what needed to be on to sell a record. And 179 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: so Andy was really handsome, and I was tired of ABC, 180 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: and I'd saved up enough money that I said to 181 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: Andy that I had this idea for Grand Funk, and 182 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: if he could get them to do everything that I say, 183 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 2: that they'd have a number one hit record in all 184 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 2: the trains three trades that were at the time, Record World, 185 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: cash Box, and Billboard, and they'd never had a hit single. 186 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: So and I was willing to do it for nothing 187 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: except when when I said they would get a number 188 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: one hit, I wanted to be the co manager and 189 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: Andy had really no experience in marketing or anything outside 190 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: of really setting up tours. So I also needed Andy 191 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: because having worked in the music industry even in nineteen 192 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: sixty nine, I was very clear that in order to 193 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: get things done, being female was not going to be 194 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: as strong as having a guy go in there and 195 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 2: get the budgets and what's needed to make things happen. 196 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: So I was very fortunate to that Grand Funk with 197 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: Phoenix had failed so badly that they were open to 198 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: everything that I wanted to do. And the first thing 199 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 2: I wanted to do was have them write a song 200 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: called We're an American band. 201 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: Let's slow down the story for a second. You get 202 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 1: involved with Grand Funk, not only are they on the 203 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: downside of their career, this is a band that was 204 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: hated by critics. It was a meat potatoes band from 205 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: day one. You're someone who worked at Electra Records Grand 206 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: Funk Railroad. Did you say, well, this is a way 207 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: for me to get in. Were you turned off by 208 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: the kind of music? What do you think? 209 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: If anything, I didn't really think much about their music. 210 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: What I thought was that they were the kind of 211 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: band that basically blue collar workers and a certain economic 212 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: strata of people would save up their money to come 213 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: hear them play. And I knew that strata. I'm from 214 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: Michigan like they are. They're from Flint, and I'm from 215 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: inner city Detroit, so I felt like I knew who 216 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 2: their audience was. And I felt that Mark Farner was 217 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 2: a really good guitar player with an amazing voice. But 218 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: I was not, and there were songs that I liked, 219 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: but that isn't what kind of motivated me to really 220 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: dedicate my life to try to making them number one. 221 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: It was that Andy was so handsome and I was 222 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: in love with him and wanting to be around him 223 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: all the time. 224 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: Okay, the only Cavalier I know is Felix from the Rascals, 225 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: Now I know, now, I never heard of this guy. 226 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: Who was This guy? 227 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 2: Andy had been their tour manager and he was and 228 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: he also managed me when I was will Powers, I 229 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: needed to have a manager, but unfortunately Andy uh Andy 230 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: passed away during the recording of my album, and I 231 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 2: worked with Andy and Grand Funk for a number of 232 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 2: years and uh over those years, as they became very successful, 233 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 2: Don Brewer really thought he knew better than me and 234 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 2: wanted to do things, wanted the producer that he wanted, 235 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: and I just I couldn't go along with it, so 236 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: I walked away. 237 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: Let's go back. So you're saying it was one hundred 238 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: percent your idea to write a song we're an American band. 239 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. The idea behind it was that I would 240 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: create a certain kind of stage show. I would make 241 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: videos that films actually that we could send out to 242 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 2: army bases across the world, that if they just wrote 243 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 2: a song, a simple song, we're an American band. At 244 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: that time, all the English bands were taking over, and 245 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: I thought that gives them. They wrote the Mark actually 246 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 2: wrote the song, not Donnie. Donnie added to it, but Mark, 247 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: being generous, gave him the publishing for it. But it's 248 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 2: really Mark Farman. And it was also my idea not 249 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: only were an American band, but because they were hated, 250 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 2: as you pointed out so much by the press and 251 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 2: disrespected and nobody really wanted to hear or talk about Grandpak. 252 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: They were sick of the Terry Knight lawsuit. So I 253 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 2: knew that Todd Rungdren, who was a friend of mine, 254 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 2: needed money because this new TV studio that he had 255 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 2: built was not making any money. And I knew that 256 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: the press at that time thought, basically Todd is God. 257 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: He was an artist that everyone respected and had integrity. 258 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 2: So I knew that press wise, you know that they 259 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: would respond going to Todd Rundgren and grand Funk. You 260 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 2: know that makes no sense. We have to take a 261 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 2: look at this. So it was really it wasn't that 262 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: brilliant it just came out of me. You know, it 263 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: seemed common sense. 264 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: Well, I actually would say it was brilliant because it 265 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: was also a great track, but a little bit slower. 266 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: You come up with the idea. 267 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: Well, I didn't write the track. 268 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: And I know, but I'm going there. You come up 269 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: with the idea, how is it presented to the band, 270 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: what is their reaction? And how long until they write 271 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: the song? 272 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: Oh, the song was done like right away, and I 273 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: didn't go to the band. Andy made it very clear 274 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 2: to me that it would be much better if everything 275 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: went through him the band. There was a lot of 276 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: especially with Donnie. People don't want to listen to a 277 00:20:54,640 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: quote unquote girl. You know, their macho, and so Andy would. 278 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 2: Andy had never and neither had the band ever heard it. 279 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: Even Grant Todd Runggren, they didn't know anything. But Andy 280 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 2: would go and present it to them and convince them 281 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 2: that they should do it. And that was fine with me. 282 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: I just wanted to do the work. I didn't care about, 283 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: you know, anything else. I didn't care if Andy called 284 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: me a publicist or the marketer or whatever they wanted 285 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 2: to do. I just wanted to manifest my ideas. I 286 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: was driven to do that, and I had a whole 287 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: plan in place where there was a lighting guy named 288 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: Jack Calmys, who I designed like an American flag backdrop. 289 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 2: You know. I had this whole idea for what it 290 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: would be and what the show would be and how 291 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: when people buy their tickets after you know, a hard 292 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 2: week at work. This was going to be a party. 293 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: You know, this was a celebration of America and a party. 294 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: You know. I'm I'm from the city that, like you know, 295 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: is is known for cars much less for soul music, 296 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: and uh, you know, it's a It's America. So I 297 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: guess that's how it happened. But I also felt it 298 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 2: happened because I thought there were just so many English 299 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 2: bands getting attention and everyone wanted to wear velvet jackets 300 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 2: and you know, be like the English rockers. So it 301 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 2: was a simple idea. But then when when they made 302 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 2: a demo of the song and I listened to it 303 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: and I was like, that's it, you know, Connie from 304 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: Little Rock, the whole deal I went perfect. So I 305 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 2: could just run with all the marketing things, you know, 306 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: getting taking pictures and I wasn't really a photographer. I mean, 307 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 2: I'm still I think I'm a conceptualist. I don't think 308 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 2: I'm a photographer. But I set up things because I 309 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: needed to get them major press where I would have 310 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 2: Mark give blood at the Red Cross and I would 311 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 2: take pictures of it, you know, because I really felt 312 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: that if you could hand the press stories that had 313 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 2: some angle and need on it and good pictures, they'd 314 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 2: run it. And they did so that and I think, 315 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: you know, we did a stage show that for its 316 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 2: time was hadn't really been done before. I went to 317 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: the Library of Congress in DC and I got all 318 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: the stock footage of a train coming at you. So 319 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 2: how the show opened as the audience came in was 320 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 2: this train. I had a film a screen come down. 321 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 2: We carried movie projectors with us on tour, and you know, 322 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: I would we'd project this train coming right at the 323 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: audience and then bam they hit the stage. So those 324 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: were you know, I was so excited seeing all my 325 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: ideas manifested that that was actually the best reward. And 326 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: you know, thank god they did have number one in 327 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: all three traits. Okay, Todd, Right, I look back now 328 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: and I think I had a. 329 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: Lot of I think that's but we'll get to that 330 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: that's your whole career. I discussed it with Todd. Todd 331 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: told me that because Tod is, you know, uber talented, 332 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: he can write the songs, play them record. He said, 333 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: the song was completely done when it came to him, 334 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: all record it. 335 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what I told him. Because Todd didn't 336 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 2: want to do it and he needed money, and I 337 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: was the one who hired him, and I had to 338 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 2: convince him because we both lived up We had a 339 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 2: place up in Woodstock, and Todd it gets real cold 340 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: in the winter. So I said, look, you'll go to 341 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: Criteria in Miami. It's a great studio. Ten days, it's warm. 342 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 2: You're going to get one hundred thousand dollars for ten days. 343 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: And I knew that his sound wouldn't interfear. I really 344 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: felt that, even though he was very different than the 345 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 2: guys in Grandfa because a lot of artists who work 346 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: with Todd have problems with Todd because he's very He's 347 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 2: doing it Todd's way, but Todd was he was going 348 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: to do the best he could do. But he was 349 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 2: really there as a great engineer. But he also mixes 350 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 2: amazing and he's you know, I just intuitively felt it 351 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: was right for both grand Funk and for Todd. 352 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: How did you meet Todd? 353 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 2: When I came to One of the things that I do, 354 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 2: as I mentioned, I was will powers Is. I wrote 355 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: songs and sang and I went to do some work 356 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 2: when they were just building out the studio at Secret Sound, 357 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 2: and Todd was under the board. He was basically building 358 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: the board when I came in and we met and 359 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: we became really good friends. 360 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: Okay, you're from Michigan. How do you get from Michigan 361 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: to New York. 362 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 2: By playing oh a being? You know you? I had 363 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: gone onto La for a minute, and I didn't feel 364 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 2: that was very mean. And the second I well, first 365 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 2: of all, I had already had experiences in New York. 366 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: When I was in college. I had a band called 367 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: The Walking Wounded, and we used to go to New 368 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 2: York to play or to open for certain people a cafe, 369 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 2: wa and other places. And my sister is a painter 370 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 2: and by night she was a waitress at Maxis Kansas City, 371 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 2: so you know, I and she was also John Cale's 372 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: girlfriend who was in the Velvet Underground, So you know, 373 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 2: I felt really comfortable in New York. It was far 374 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: more my cup of tea. I like to work and 375 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: make things, and I like having friends who are artists, 376 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: so you know, it definitely felt It's always felt like home. 377 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: So how does a nice Jewish girl end up in 378 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: Nashville today? 379 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 2: By mistake? I asked myself that quite often, and I 380 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 2: leave here probably at least once a month for a 381 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: week to go to New York, if not more. I'm 382 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 2: still trying to get used to the South. I have 383 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 2: a thing that I believe in called the pattern interrupt 384 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 2: and that's where you put yourself in positions that are 385 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: really uncomfortable to you, that don't feel right to you, 386 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: and that should shake up your creativity. And so the 387 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: move to Nashville was in part because of that, and 388 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 2: also moving to Nashville provided me the oppert tunity to 389 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: have the kind of workspace that I've always wanted. I 390 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 2: need at least like eight thousand square feet, so you know, 391 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 2: that's that's like i'd be. I'd be working for the 392 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: bank if I was in New York, you know, and 393 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: in LA with taxes, that wasn't really feasible. Although as 394 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 2: you get older the weather seems to be nice, but 395 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: it did you know, I am scared by fires and earthquakes. 396 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 2: So you know, so I'm trying this. We'll see. 397 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So how many years have you been in Nashville? Uh? 398 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: Five? But I would say the first two years we 399 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: weren't here that much. Who we my husband denied? Okay, yeah, and. 400 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: Your husband all? I mean, I don't know anything about 401 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: the husband. Long you've been married. 402 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: Twenty three or four years? 403 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: And what is he? 404 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 2: Not quite what is February nineteen ninety nine? 405 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: And what does he do all day? 406 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: He says, And he plays his guitar, he reads books, 407 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 2: he sculpts in the basement where his woodwork room is. 408 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: He only gets a little spot in the workspace. I 409 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 2: get all the big stuff. And he was an architect, 410 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 2: so he designed our house. And you know, it's really 411 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 2: made for the way that we want to live. And 412 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: that's a real pleasure. 413 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: You're talking about the eight thousand square feet. Are the 414 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: eight thousand square feet in your house? Or is that 415 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: a separate location all in my house? How much property 416 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: do you have? 417 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: Two acres? 418 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: So the workspace is that part of the house or 419 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: a separate building? 420 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 2: No? That what we did here because I wanted it 421 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: to be all in one work live, so most of it, 422 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: you know, we live in maybe like fifteen hundred square 423 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 2: feet of the eight thousand square feet. 424 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: And what is in the rest of the space, the 425 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: other sixty five hundred square feet. 426 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: You got to come and visit. I have a print 427 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: studio where I make large scale prints. I have a 428 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: paint studio as I'm a painter. I have a photo studio. 429 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 2: I have a gallery. It's a private gallery. I used 430 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 2: to have an actual brick and mortar gallery in Colorado, 431 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 2: so in the house. We made a private gallery online. 432 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: It's called rock and Roll Photo Gallery dot Com. And 433 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: it's not just my work, it's the world of uh, 434 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 2: A lot of different photographers who who I personally think, 435 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 2: you know, that collecting their work is a value. We had. 436 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 2: We have Terry O'Neill, you know, we had Terry before 437 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 2: he passed, Gary Mankowitz, A lot of individuals who have 438 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: made uh great images. Uh. So it's not just about 439 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: you know, Lynn Goldsmith. But we made it private because 440 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: I just really want to have people come who truly 441 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 2: want to collect. 442 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: So how does a rock and roller meet an architect? Oh? 443 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: He my husband designed and built about five buildings at 444 00:32:52,960 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 2: least homes recording studio uh Art building a home in 445 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: Seattle for the recording artist Steve Miller. And Steve was 446 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 2: Steve is a really is a close friend of mine. 447 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: He and his wife at the time, and I would 448 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 2: They lived in sun Valence, and so I would go 449 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 2: to visit Steve and Kim for holidays and whatever, and 450 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: that's how I met Sid. 451 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: Okay, and how did you ultimately decide to get married 452 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: around age fifty, you know, as opposed to the previous 453 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: period of eligibility of thirty years. 454 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 2: Oh, I knew that I didn't want to get married 455 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 2: until I was fifty. I really work was always number 456 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 2: one for me. And most men who want to get 457 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 2: married want to have children, and they want you to 458 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: be there for them. And that's wonderful, you know, I'm 459 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: all for it. But I wanted to really make my 460 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 2: focus on my work. And I didn't think that being 461 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: a mother and a wife that I could be a 462 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 2: good one if I had that drive that I had 463 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: work wise, so I made a choice. 464 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: And did you ever have the urge to have children? 465 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, but then I would think about, you know, 466 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 2: the reality of being a responsible, good parent, and I 467 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 2: don't want to mess up another human being, you know, 468 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: I wanted, I would like to, and I always sort 469 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 2: of thought that the world was not going to be 470 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 2: a great place for what would be my grandchildren or 471 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 2: great grandchildren. I've always felt that we're headed for a 472 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 2: very hard time. And I'm very grateful that I lived 473 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: when I did and I lived the way that I did. 474 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 2: But I made up my mind long ago that I 475 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 2: would get married when I was fifty, and that's what 476 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 2: I did. 477 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: Okay, you're someone who's had quite a career, but you 478 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: came of age during the mis era, Women's liberation. The 479 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 1: Ultimately we have Cheryl Samberg telling you to lean in 480 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: and then other people saying you can have it all. 481 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: What's your take on all that? 482 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: Well, maybe some people can. You know, I can't really 483 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 2: answer for everyone. I just know what I'm capable of 484 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 2: or feel comfortable with, and I really didn't think that 485 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: I could be I thought I had to make a 486 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 2: choice be a good mother or you know, do my work, 487 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 2: and that I couldn't do both. There are people who 488 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,439 Speaker 2: I'm sure think they can and they can have it all, 489 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 2: and maybe they can, but that I knew, very I 490 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: knew that wasn't me. 491 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: Does your sister have children? No, so both you and 492 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: your sister don't have children. You think that has anything 493 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: to do with your upbringing? 494 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 2: Not really. My mother was a single working mother, but 495 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 2: she did marry when I was fourteen fifteen. My sister 496 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 2: wanted to have kids, and there was a period of 497 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 2: time where we even more so her. We went over 498 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 2: to bet and adopt, did foster parented some children, and 499 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 2: that just showed me, and I think has showed her 500 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 2: quite clearly that you know, parenting isn't for everybody. We tried. 501 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 1: Okay, in your book, you say your sister is older, 502 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: you say she is the pretty one, et cetera. Now, 503 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: when I moved to Los Angeles, my sister was going 504 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: to graduate school here. It's so I could stay with 505 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: her a little bit. To what degree having an older 506 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: sister or an entree help you to get established? 507 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 2: Oh? I think it helped me a lot. My sister 508 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 2: she's very different than me, but you know, she was 509 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 2: friends with people like I mean, that's how I met 510 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: Carol King James Taylor. That was when she lived in 511 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 2: LA She designed clothes for a period of time for 512 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 2: a lot of bands, just her artistic sensibilities have always 513 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 2: been really influential in my life. 514 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: So what is about her that she ends up being 515 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: in all these spots. She must have something, some magic, 516 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: some blitz with something. 517 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 2: Well, she was really she was talented, she was pretty, 518 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 2: she was she was beneficial in two musical groups in 519 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 2: how she dressed them. So, you know, it was a 520 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 2: smaller world then, and I just think that people who 521 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 2: people who are attractive have an easier time than being 522 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,959 Speaker 2: brought into the inner circle, so to speak, then those 523 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 2: who aren't. It's just a fact of life. You know. 524 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 2: We all have our pluses and minuses. And so there 525 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 2: are people who let's say, are overweight or of a 526 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 2: body type that isn't considered Well today it's different, but 527 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 2: let's say back then, but then they might have been 528 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 2: really funny and people wanted them around because they're really funny, 529 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: or they're really smart and they're well read and they 530 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 2: inspire you because of it. So, you know, my sister 531 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 2: and I were always very much independent artists, and I 532 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 2: think that inspired some people to want to hang with 533 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 2: us and some people not. You know, I can really 534 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 2: only answer, you know for me. 535 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 1: Okay, we're doing a zoom but this is not visible 536 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: to my audience, but there are pictures online and you 537 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:21,839 Speaker 1: let your hair go white. How big a decision was that, Well, 538 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: it's a bit. 539 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 2: It continues to be a decision. I can clearly tell 540 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 2: when I'm not as accepted as I might be. If 541 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 2: I had my long, dark hair. During COVID, my hair 542 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 2: started coming in white, and I thought, whoa, I have 543 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 2: white hair. I don't have gray hair. I've got like 544 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 2: white hair. I thought that'd be fun to see, so 545 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 2: I let it grow out, like why diet during COVID? 546 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 2: And then I decided that like, this is who I am, 547 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 2: and I don't want to keep dyeing my hair or 548 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 2: trying to be young. And if in moments I do, 549 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 2: I can put on a wig. So I wear wigs 550 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 2: and if I feel that way, and if I don't, 551 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 2: I have my white hair. Yeah. 552 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: Do people treat someone differently if they have white. 553 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 2: Hair, Well, I guess it depends on your age. When 554 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 2: Gaga had white hair, they didn't. They still treated her 555 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 2: as Gaga. I think that you know, when you're my age, 556 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,879 Speaker 2: which I'm seventy five, and you have white hair, they're 557 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 2: going to experience you differently. I mean I didn't really 558 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 2: know that people thought I was maybe fifty when I 559 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 2: was seventy because I had dark hair, you know, you 560 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 2: were a hat And yeah they do, but I don't 561 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 2: really care. 562 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: And what about other ways to keep young? Plastic surgery, liposuction, 563 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: et cetera. Are those things you have a take on. 564 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 2: Well, maybe if I didn't have a loving husband, you know, 565 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 2: and I thought I might be more attractive, maybe that 566 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 2: would influence me. But I really feel like I want 567 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 2: to see myself age. I don't really want to have 568 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 2: one of those faces with lips that you know have 569 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 2: been injected number of times or you know, I'm I'm 570 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 2: I just want to be I'm pretty grateful, you know, 571 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 2: for what I have, and I don't really care anymore. 572 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,479 Speaker 2: Sometimes I do. I mean I say I don't really care, 573 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 2: but you know, sometimes I do. I feel like, Oh, 574 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 2: I'm not being invited or oh I'm not included because 575 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 2: they think I'm old. 576 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, how about the reverse? You know, this is more 577 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 1: psychological than appearance. Are you ever with younger people and say, well, 578 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: maybe I don't belong here anymore? 579 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, I'm with older people and I say maybe 580 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 2: I don't belong here anymore. I I just am not 581 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 2: interested for the most part in the things that seem 582 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 2: to motivate, but I am interested in I have younger friends, 583 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 2: you know, some that are in their thirties, some in 584 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 2: their forties, some in their fifties, and generally they you know, 585 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 2: they I guess they think that I offer them some 586 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 2: kind of knowledge from the life that I've lived, so 587 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 2: they want they want to be friends with me. And 588 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 2: you know, but that word friend can take a kind 589 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 2: of wide definition or a very narrow one. You know, 590 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,399 Speaker 2: there are people for me that you know, I've known 591 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 2: for fifty years or more and I've had a number 592 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 2: of experiences with them over our lifetimes, and that's really 593 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 2: feels very much like a bonded friend, and you can't 594 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,359 Speaker 2: really have that with a new friend. So it's more 595 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 2: about the length of time that you've known someone, you know, 596 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 2: the experiences that you had with them. I have a 597 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 2: friend Nancy, who we were partners at Life magazine. She 598 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,720 Speaker 2: was the writer, I was the photographer, and we would, 599 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 2: you know, do stories together, and the experiences that we 600 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 2: had on the road with Tony Robbins or when we 601 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 2: did Michael Jackson, I mean, part of the reason I 602 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 2: so value my relationship with Nancy is because only she, 603 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 2: She's the only one on the planet, you know, other 604 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 2: than me, that I can really share that experience with, 605 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 2: you know, because we were there together. So, you know, friends, 606 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 2: I definitely need them, and I like to have some 607 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 2: new friends, but having my old friends is what really 608 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 2: makes me feel connected. 609 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,880 Speaker 1: Let's say, because you live in Nashville, which is a 610 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:24,239 Speaker 1: music city, Let's say, okay I called you up, or 611 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,240 Speaker 1: no one calls I emailed. Let's go to Bridgestone Arena 612 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: to see a relatively new act, or go to a 613 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: club to see a holy new act. What would you say, 614 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: go to. 615 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,799 Speaker 2: A club for a holy new act. I got asked 616 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 2: the other night go to a club with a holy 617 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 2: new act. I got asked the other night to go 618 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 2: to bridge Stone Arena by a friend of mine who's 619 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:55,040 Speaker 2: probably about forty five maybe at most will and he's 620 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 2: a Fish fan. And he said, I have a ticket, 621 00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 2: you know, will you come with me to bridge Stone 622 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:05,319 Speaker 2: Arena Sea Fish. I said, absolutely not. I'd rather go 623 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:11,480 Speaker 2: see Joe Blow at some place you know, like Grimey's 624 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,840 Speaker 2: or whatever that holds twenty people. That to me is fun. 625 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 1: Well, let me change a little bit. How hard is 626 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,879 Speaker 1: it to get you out of the house to do 627 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:22,879 Speaker 1: these things where you made your name. 628 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,799 Speaker 2: Oh, that's very funny. That's a really good question. It's 629 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 2: real hard to get me out of the house. It's 630 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,880 Speaker 2: not if we're well in New York for me to 631 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 2: do other things, not to like go to Madison Square 632 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,439 Speaker 2: Garden or you know, things like that. But I get 633 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 2: out of the house a lot there. But here, no, 634 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,839 Speaker 2: I like to do my work all day and then 635 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 2: either find some great documentary or some TV show to 636 00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:03,359 Speaker 2: binge you know morning news. Uh, that to me is 637 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 2: heavenly going out and going I think here it's about 638 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,880 Speaker 2: the driving and the parking, because I do go out 639 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 2: in Colorado and in uh in New York. 640 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 1: Okay, let me drill down a little bit further. To 641 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: what degree would you not want to go because you said, 642 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 1: been there, done that? 643 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 2: Oh a lot, really a lot. And now what's interesting 644 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:46,800 Speaker 2: for me is it's happening in in photographing people who 645 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,799 Speaker 2: I I don't want to do more retouching work I 646 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,399 Speaker 2: don't want to do. I don't want to do it. 647 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 2: You know. I got a call from Alice Cooper's people 648 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 2: because Alice was here in Nashville recently. This is before 649 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 2: this album that just came out came out, and they 650 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 2: wanted me to do a variety of things the band here, this, there, 651 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 2: like Nah, been there, done that. Not interested. So in 652 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 2: some way it feels odd to me that I just 653 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:33,319 Speaker 2: don't have that drive anymore, you know. But if it 654 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:41,479 Speaker 2: was about photographing someone who's of who I want to meet, 655 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 2: that's of interest and they don't have to be in music, 656 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,640 Speaker 2: I'm more likely to want to do it. But for 657 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 2: the most part, everything in celebrity portraiture in the music 658 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,920 Speaker 2: world also requires a lot of time spent in front 659 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 2: of the computer making people look like what they want 660 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:08,920 Speaker 2: other people to think they look like. And it just 661 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,280 Speaker 2: doesn't interest me at all. 662 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, and then you mentioned Colorado. How long were 663 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: you living in Aspen twenty years? 664 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 2: Well, I kept New York. 665 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 1: Okay, let's just talk Colorado. How did you end up 666 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: in Aspen? 667 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 2: Well, I lived. I had a house in New York 668 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:33,759 Speaker 2: and LA and a house up in Woodstock. And when 669 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,040 Speaker 2: I met my husband, which you asked about, which was 670 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:43,640 Speaker 2: you know, over twenty years ago. He really is a 671 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:48,400 Speaker 2: mountain guy. He lived in Sun Valley for twenty something years, 672 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 2: and I had done I had worked about a month 673 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,640 Speaker 2: a year for National Geographic, and I had friends photographer 674 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 2: friends who were staffed Geographic that all of them had 675 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 2: moved to Aspen and lived there. And so when we 676 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,000 Speaker 2: got married, we went and looked at Aspen because I 677 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,919 Speaker 2: knew that my husband couldn't really live in New York 678 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 2: full time. He's the as most I think, good couples, 679 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,880 Speaker 2: your opposites. You know. I love the city. He like, 680 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:28,919 Speaker 2: he wants to see trees, long distance views, and I say, 681 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:33,880 Speaker 2: it's not about looking out, it's about looking within. And 682 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:39,040 Speaker 2: so I thought, well, let's go take a look there. 683 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,359 Speaker 2: We're going to do a mountain town. And they have 684 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,480 Speaker 2: a place called Anderson Ranch, which is an arts center 685 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,560 Speaker 2: and everyone comes through there. I mean they really They're 686 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 2: like a little mini New York. So I thought, uh, 687 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,759 Speaker 2: And it was much easier to get in and out 688 00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 2: of than Sun Valley. So I thought it would be 689 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,080 Speaker 2: good for me, time for a pattern interrupt sell La, 690 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:11,000 Speaker 2: stop doing celebrity as much celebrity stuff, and start investigating 691 00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 2: other things with your art. And that was why the 692 00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:21,359 Speaker 2: move to Colorado. Are you a skier, Yeah, I skied, well, 693 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,000 Speaker 2: I became a skier. Yeah, I skied every morning. It 694 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:25,520 Speaker 2: was great. 695 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:32,279 Speaker 1: Absolutely. So you talk about these multiple houses. Was your 696 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:33,759 Speaker 1: career that lucrative? 697 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,680 Speaker 2: Well, I always I'm a buyer, not a renter. It's 698 00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,840 Speaker 2: the way that I am. And in those days, you know, 699 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,920 Speaker 2: things didn't cost what they do now. I don't understand 700 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 2: how young people can do it now, you know. And 701 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,840 Speaker 2: I was fortunate because I might buy some real estate 702 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,520 Speaker 2: and sell it, and I made more money in the 703 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:04,000 Speaker 2: real estate then I did, let's say, for a couple 704 00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:11,359 Speaker 2: of years of work. So it's all always panned out 705 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:12,879 Speaker 2: for me somehow. 706 00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: And what properties do you and your husband own now? 707 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,400 Speaker 2: We have a condo in Aspen, the house in Nashville, 708 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,640 Speaker 2: and a condo in New York City. 709 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:30,520 Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the Walking Wounded. Why did 710 00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: you start a band to begin with? Was that a 711 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,320 Speaker 1: long time desire? Did you practice guitar in your bedroom? 712 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:37,400 Speaker 1: How did that come about? 713 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,759 Speaker 2: Well? I always sang and wrote songs. I sang in 714 00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:48,560 Speaker 2: coffee houses in Florida. When we moved there, I sang 715 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:54,319 Speaker 2: in Freddie Neil's coffee house. And I think I might 716 00:53:54,360 --> 00:54:01,600 Speaker 2: have thought that I would be a singer, and when 717 00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 2: I went to University of Michigan, there was a band 718 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 2: starting up, the Walking Wound, and somehow the manager had 719 00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:13,239 Speaker 2: heard I guess of that band that I could sing, 720 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,279 Speaker 2: so they asked me to join the band, and I 721 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:24,040 Speaker 2: played bass and sang, and unfortunately, on one of our 722 00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:28,560 Speaker 2: trips to New York, I met a band called Children 723 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:33,080 Speaker 2: of Paradise and they then came to ann Arbor and 724 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:38,480 Speaker 2: played and we after the show, we all went out 725 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:43,800 Speaker 2: in my car to look for flying saucers that seemed 726 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,319 Speaker 2: to have been spotted quite frequently. Believe it or not. 727 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: Let's stop here now, are you the touchy feely kind 728 00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,319 Speaker 1: of person? Were you going to tell me? You know 729 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,440 Speaker 1: there are flying saucers and you know, don't use it. 730 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 2: University of Michigan and we were near Ipsilante, and at 731 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,680 Speaker 2: the time there were not that we believed in it. 732 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,640 Speaker 2: We went to see it. There were sightings quite often 733 00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,000 Speaker 2: of UFOs, you know, it was in the ann Arbor 734 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,600 Speaker 2: News or whatever, so I wasn't judging it. I just thought, hey, 735 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,600 Speaker 2: let's go, let's go see if they're really there. And 736 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,360 Speaker 2: this band I got pulled over because I was driving 737 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,680 Speaker 2: very slowly because I kept looking up to see if 738 00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,000 Speaker 2: there were any flying saucers. It was my car and 739 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:38,399 Speaker 2: this band Children of Paradise already and Happy Trom they 740 00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:42,080 Speaker 2: stuck there. I got pulled over by the cops because 741 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,840 Speaker 2: I was driving so slow and they stuck. I didn't 742 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:49,760 Speaker 2: know they had drugs and they stuck them under my seat. 743 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,719 Speaker 2: They were in the back seat. And so when I 744 00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,799 Speaker 2: got pulled over and the police found the drugs and 745 00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:03,400 Speaker 2: it's my car, I was rested and my stepfather said. 746 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,080 Speaker 1: That it is a little bit slower you're driving. You're 747 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,320 Speaker 1: pulled over, which is always a horrifying experience at whatever 748 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,279 Speaker 1: age when they say we found drugs and it's you. 749 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:15,920 Speaker 1: How did you react? 750 00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:18,920 Speaker 2: Oh? I got down on my hands and knees and 751 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,680 Speaker 2: I said, you can't do this. I'm Jewish, I come 752 00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,840 Speaker 2: from a good family. You can't. I'm I go to 753 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:30,879 Speaker 2: ann Arbor, you know. And they didn't care, and they 754 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,600 Speaker 2: took all of us to jail, but they let the 755 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,839 Speaker 2: other band go because they were from New York. So 756 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,640 Speaker 2: I got stuck with a felony. 757 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,880 Speaker 1: Wait wait, so what was your feeling about them doing 758 00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:42,520 Speaker 1: that to you? 759 00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:50,120 Speaker 2: Oh? I'm scumbags. What can I say? And later I 760 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,239 Speaker 2: ran into Happy and already one of them died. I 761 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,600 Speaker 2: ran into them. They live up in Woodstock, right, Yeah, 762 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,319 Speaker 2: and they know what they did to me, you know, 763 00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:05,920 Speaker 2: and they left me there to hold the bag. But anyway, 764 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 2: my stepfather said that unless I quit my band and 765 00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:15,000 Speaker 2: I stopped singing and all of this stuff, that he 766 00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:19,120 Speaker 2: wouldn't pay for my lawyer. So I made a deal 767 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:23,360 Speaker 2: with him, and that was why I stopped going in 768 00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,560 Speaker 2: that direction and decided to focus on directing. 769 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,479 Speaker 1: Okay, a little bit slower. You know, it's a big 770 00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,240 Speaker 1: thing for women to play the bass. Did you know 771 00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,600 Speaker 1: how to play the bass before you joined the band? 772 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:43,080 Speaker 2: Not really. I played guitar. I had a Gibson guitar. No, 773 00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:49,480 Speaker 2: but they taught me, you know, light my fire. You know, 774 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:56,760 Speaker 2: playing music is not that hard, you know, whether you 775 00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,200 Speaker 2: play it well or not. I don't play well. 776 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:07,160 Speaker 1: Okay, So you made this deal with your father, grand stepfather, 777 00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:07,680 Speaker 1: excuse me? 778 00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:09,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? 779 00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,080 Speaker 1: Do you still resent him for that? 780 00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,960 Speaker 2: Oh? Not at all, not at all. No. Your life 781 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:20,200 Speaker 2: takes turns for various reasons, and it was why I 782 00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:25,320 Speaker 2: then focused on directing. And you know, I loved making films. 783 00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,200 Speaker 2: I loved doing what I did, and the deal was, 784 00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:37,280 Speaker 2: you know that after I graduated and returned for six 785 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:43,480 Speaker 2: months to Miami Beach, that then you know, I was 786 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:44,480 Speaker 2: free to be. 787 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,840 Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning. So you're talking about Detroit. 788 00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:56,760 Speaker 1: Where were you born? 789 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,280 Speaker 2: I was born in Detroit. You want to know the hospital? 790 00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,280 Speaker 1: No, I want to know how long you lived there 791 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:04,560 Speaker 1: before we moved to Florida. 792 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,280 Speaker 2: Basically. I mean we did move once when I was 793 00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:12,400 Speaker 2: nine to a different part of Florida. That's because my mother, 794 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,880 Speaker 2: she didn't get married. She was opening up a store 795 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,760 Speaker 2: that failed, so we moved back to Detroit. But my 796 00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:29,200 Speaker 2: kindergarten through to tenth grade was basically Detroit, and then 797 00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:32,600 Speaker 2: for tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grade it was Beach Hide. 798 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,240 Speaker 1: Usually that's an incredible trauma to leave all your friends 799 00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,160 Speaker 1: behind and start over in high school. 800 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:46,480 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I didn't want to go. I was not interested. 801 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,960 Speaker 2: And it was also traumatic in that Miami Beach and 802 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:56,080 Speaker 2: the lifestyle with my stepfather was just so different than 803 00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,280 Speaker 2: what I had had in Detroit. 804 01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:00,880 Speaker 1: In what way? 805 01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:10,960 Speaker 2: Oh, in every way. My stepfather was very wealthy, and 806 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:17,280 Speaker 2: he also wanted to take a hand in my upbringing 807 01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:22,840 Speaker 2: as a I don't think I ever ate vegetables, and 808 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,920 Speaker 2: he was very hands on, whereas my mother, because she 809 01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:32,040 Speaker 2: was a working mother, pretty much left me and my 810 01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:38,000 Speaker 2: sister alone and I didn't have that kind of supervision. 811 01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:45,400 Speaker 2: So at first I hated it, but I now am 812 01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:52,120 Speaker 2: really grateful that, you know, someone came in and made 813 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,440 Speaker 2: sure I used my knife and fork, and that I 814 01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:56,720 Speaker 2: didn't just eat with my hands. 815 01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:00,760 Speaker 1: And did your mother and stepfather were main marriad for 816 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:06,440 Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. Yes, okay, so you're in 817 01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,240 Speaker 1: Florida like when the Beatles hit. 818 01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my picture of the feet of the Beatles, 819 01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:19,920 Speaker 2: So tell us that story. As I said, my stepfather 820 01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:23,680 Speaker 2: and I really didn't well, I didn't get along with 821 01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:28,320 Speaker 2: him because I didn't enjoy having this stranger come in 822 01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,600 Speaker 2: and suddenly there are rules like when you walk out 823 01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,160 Speaker 2: of the room, turn your light off, or you're being 824 01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:38,840 Speaker 2: fine twenty five cents, a range of things that I 825 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,400 Speaker 2: was rebelling against. And he wanted to be on my 826 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:47,880 Speaker 2: good side, and because he owned hotels in Miami Beach, 827 01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,640 Speaker 2: he could. He did arrange for me to be in 828 01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:58,000 Speaker 2: the lobby of the Dauville Hotel when the Beatles arrived. 829 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,720 Speaker 2: Only I wasn't interested in the Beatles. I didn't like 830 01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,680 Speaker 2: the Beatles. I thought, I Want to Hold Your Hand 831 01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:15,560 Speaker 2: was just a really weak song, and they weren't my 832 01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:19,160 Speaker 2: cup of tea. So I told my mother I wasn't going, 833 01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,280 Speaker 2: and she said, no, no, you're going, because if there's 834 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:26,640 Speaker 2: a choice between you and George, I'm staying with George 835 01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:34,040 Speaker 2: and you're gone. So with that in mind, I went 836 01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:37,560 Speaker 2: to the Doba Hotel with my camera because I did 837 01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,640 Speaker 2: like the lobby carpets in these fancy hotels, and I 838 01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:46,880 Speaker 2: liked photographing the carpets. And when the Beatles came in, 839 01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,040 Speaker 2: I didn't even look at them, but I was looking 840 01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:54,160 Speaker 2: at the carpet and I saw their feet and they 841 01:02:54,200 --> 01:03:01,000 Speaker 2: were all wearing James Brown's boots. Like a little light 842 01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:05,160 Speaker 2: bulb went off in my head. I thought, oh, And 843 01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:08,160 Speaker 2: I took a picture of their feet on the lobby carpet. 844 01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:17,760 Speaker 2: But I just walked away after that, and John grabbed 845 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:23,880 Speaker 2: my arm. John Lennon Happy Birthday, John Today's birthday. He 846 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:26,880 Speaker 2: grabbed my arm and said, d youre in all faces? 847 01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:33,720 Speaker 2: And I said no, no, and walked off. And so 848 01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,960 Speaker 2: someone from the Miami Herald was there and they asked 849 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,600 Speaker 2: if they could develop my pictures. They asked my father 850 01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:46,360 Speaker 2: and stepfather and he said yes. And so really that 851 01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:51,440 Speaker 2: was my first kind of published picture and my story 852 01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:58,160 Speaker 2: in the in the newspaper about you know, the little 853 01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,520 Speaker 2: girl who didn't like the Beatles. 854 01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,000 Speaker 1: So but you ended up seeing the Beatles when they 855 01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:07,919 Speaker 1: were there, for they were there to play the third 856 01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:09,160 Speaker 1: week on Ed Sullivan. 857 01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:13,720 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I definitely went, and you know, I mean 858 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:17,120 Speaker 2: it was a whole I remember it as like one time, 859 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,760 Speaker 2: you know, like going being in the lobby, and then 860 01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:25,560 Speaker 2: maybe later being because it was at the same hotel 861 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:30,360 Speaker 2: as I remember. But the memory that is clearest for 862 01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,760 Speaker 2: me is like I couldn't have cared less about the Beatles, 863 01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:38,440 Speaker 2: and yet when they came out on stage, all the 864 01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:42,920 Speaker 2: girls in the audience were standing on chairs and screaming, 865 01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:47,840 Speaker 2: and I found that I was also standing on a chair, 866 01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:54,680 Speaker 2: screaming with tears running down my face. George George, and 867 01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:59,040 Speaker 2: I it was like standing outside of myself because I thought, Lynn, 868 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:04,480 Speaker 2: what are they doing? But I was like George, George. 869 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:10,600 Speaker 2: So it's fascinating this kind of thing that spreads, especially 870 01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:15,600 Speaker 2: I think amongst young girls or young adolescents who are 871 01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:18,520 Speaker 2: that you know passionate? 872 01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:25,120 Speaker 1: Okay, you end up going to University of Michigan. Why 873 01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:26,880 Speaker 1: as opposed anywhere else? 874 01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:33,000 Speaker 2: Well, I was accepted to Ragcliffe, which was Harvard because 875 01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,120 Speaker 2: they were it was really kind of like one school. 876 01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:42,080 Speaker 2: Harvard didn't take girls. And my father, my birth father, 877 01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:47,080 Speaker 2: had gone to U of M and so I, for 878 01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:50,720 Speaker 2: whatever reason, wanted to go and get a degree from 879 01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,440 Speaker 2: the same school that my father went to. 880 01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:55,920 Speaker 1: And did you get in state tuition or are you're 881 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:57,600 Speaker 1: living in Florida A No. 882 01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:00,720 Speaker 2: No, I was an out of state student, which made 883 01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,360 Speaker 2: it harder to get into and you had to pay 884 01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:05,280 Speaker 2: out of state money. 885 01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:09,360 Speaker 1: Right, So you moved to New York after college? How 886 01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:11,080 Speaker 1: long after college? You moved to New York. 887 01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,080 Speaker 2: When I graduated from college, I had to go back 888 01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:20,600 Speaker 2: to Miami Beach for six months and teach high school English. 889 01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:27,360 Speaker 2: So I was a substitute. Yeah, substitute teacher for six months, 890 01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:31,360 Speaker 2: and then as soon as that time was up, I 891 01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:32,360 Speaker 2: went to New York. 892 01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:34,760 Speaker 1: And you stayed with your sister. 893 01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,040 Speaker 2: No, I actually stayed with my friend Inky. 894 01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:40,920 Speaker 1: And who is incy. 895 01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,920 Speaker 2: Inky was my friend that I met at a bicycle 896 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:52,560 Speaker 2: shop in Coconhao Grove and Inky had moved there, so 897 01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:56,560 Speaker 2: I went and stayed with Inky. At first she was 898 01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,320 Speaker 2: on the Upper West Side, which at that time they 899 01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:03,920 Speaker 2: were like dutings. Yeah, and how long do you live? 900 01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:07,720 Speaker 2: My sister had moved to la by then, So. 901 01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:09,400 Speaker 1: How long did you live with Inky before you got 902 01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:10,080 Speaker 1: your own place? 903 01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:16,640 Speaker 2: A very short time. I don't remember exactly, but you know, 904 01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:18,840 Speaker 2: probably just a few months. 905 01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:21,400 Speaker 1: And so you get to New York. How do you 906 01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:21,959 Speaker 1: get a job? 907 01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:28,680 Speaker 2: Well, I thought that I would direct films. So you 908 01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:35,080 Speaker 2: start out by going to different production companies trying to 909 01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:42,400 Speaker 2: get a job as a production assistant. And because you know, 910 01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:45,200 Speaker 2: I was told you bring a resume and all the 911 01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:49,360 Speaker 2: rest of it. And I graduated from ann Arbor in 912 01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:54,320 Speaker 2: three years with two degrees Magna Cumlada. So when I 913 01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:59,960 Speaker 2: would present my resume with that on it production compan 914 01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:01,400 Speaker 2: and he s would say to me, well, you're not 915 01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,400 Speaker 2: going to like run for coffee, you know, I'm not 916 01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:08,439 Speaker 2: going to hire you. So I realized I was like overqualified. 917 01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:14,280 Speaker 2: And during that period of time I had met, through Inky, 918 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:22,240 Speaker 2: my friend a guy named Bob Zachary who worked at 919 01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:31,759 Speaker 2: Elektra Records, and he had told me that Danny Fields 920 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:35,840 Speaker 2: was leaving Electra. I knew Danny because Danny had come 921 01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:40,680 Speaker 2: to ann Arbor looking for bands when I was in 922 01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:45,839 Speaker 2: the walking room, and he'd gone to see the MC five, US, 923 01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:51,320 Speaker 2: the SRC KSE and Iggy and the Stooges, and so 924 01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:56,439 Speaker 2: I met him back then. But he was leaving and 925 01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:02,040 Speaker 2: Bob told me about this position, and because I had 926 01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:09,640 Speaker 2: learned that telling the truth wouldn't get you the job, 927 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:19,920 Speaker 2: I went in and told them that. Well, I had 928 01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:23,439 Speaker 2: a meeting with Jack Holsman, and I told him that 929 01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:29,040 Speaker 2: I had worked at CAP Records. And Jack cap who 930 01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:37,400 Speaker 2: created the forty five, actually is my grandfather's cousin. When 931 01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:45,519 Speaker 2: they came over from Russia. He and my grandfather we're 932 01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:49,800 Speaker 2: going to go into the music business, and my grandfather 933 01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:56,080 Speaker 2: decided that wasn't a good idea and he went to 934 01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:59,599 Speaker 2: Michigan and started a carpet cleaning company. You really want 935 01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:05,400 Speaker 2: to hear all? Yeah, So anyway, I said that I 936 01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:08,080 Speaker 2: had worked for Cap Records, and I also knew that 937 01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:10,800 Speaker 2: if I got in there and did a number of 938 01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:15,040 Speaker 2: things really well right away, that even if Jack Holsman 939 01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:18,280 Speaker 2: were to find out that I lied, he would keep me. 940 01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:24,080 Speaker 2: So that's exactly what happened. I created a thing called 941 01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,960 Speaker 2: the biodisc. Right away, I started making radios about a 942 01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:32,120 Speaker 2: range of ideas that I had thrown at Jack in 943 01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,599 Speaker 2: our meeting. Like I said, you know, you send out 944 01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:39,800 Speaker 2: these bios to the trade publications. They get so many 945 01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:43,400 Speaker 2: of them from all the labels. You should be sending them, 946 01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:46,080 Speaker 2: you know, a little disc And I had a thing 947 01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:49,360 Speaker 2: that my mom had sent me from the Caribbean, which 948 01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:53,519 Speaker 2: was a record that you could play right, And I said, 949 01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:58,000 Speaker 2: and I can like interview your artists and talk to 950 01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:01,000 Speaker 2: them and also cut radio spots. I don't know what 951 01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:03,320 Speaker 2: I said. I made up all this stuff and then 952 01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:07,160 Speaker 2: I did it. That's that's that's like grand prom That's 953 01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,360 Speaker 2: what I do. Like they get up and then I 954 01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:10,840 Speaker 2: do it. 955 01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:13,560 Speaker 1: Okay, So how long do you work in elector records? 956 01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:16,519 Speaker 2: Not that long? Because in the beginning I liked it 957 01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,680 Speaker 2: because I liked the artists that I was doing, Delaney 958 01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:25,599 Speaker 2: and Bonnie. Oh who is that great crew? The I'm 959 01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,799 Speaker 2: blanking their name, you know. Iggy was on the label, 960 01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:32,439 Speaker 2: a bunch of artists that I liked. But then he 961 01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,160 Speaker 2: wanted me to do people that I didn't like, and 962 01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:40,320 Speaker 2: I didn't want to do that. And I'm someone who 963 01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:44,160 Speaker 2: thinks like, if you're unhappy at what you're doing, change it. 964 01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:50,439 Speaker 2: So that's what I did. Yeah, actually I missed a step, 965 01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:54,000 Speaker 2: to tell you the truth. When I went around trying 966 01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,760 Speaker 2: to get a job as a production assistant and they 967 01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:05,240 Speaker 2: wouldn't hire me, I decided to try NBC and to 968 01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,559 Speaker 2: see how it worked there. How you got a job 969 01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:13,120 Speaker 2: as a production assistant And they told me that I 970 01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:16,479 Speaker 2: could be a guide and after I'm a guide for 971 01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:20,040 Speaker 2: six months, then I could move up to being a 972 01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:24,320 Speaker 2: production assistant. Well, I'm a girl who graduated from college 973 01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,800 Speaker 2: in three years with two degrees. I'm not spending six 974 01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:31,240 Speaker 2: months as a guide. So while I was being a guide, 975 01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:36,160 Speaker 2: I got to meet people on this show called Personality, 976 01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:41,400 Speaker 2: where you write questions for the TV show, and I 977 01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:44,080 Speaker 2: talked my way into that. So I was only a 978 01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:47,439 Speaker 2: guide for like, I don't know, a month or two 979 01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:51,240 Speaker 2: months before, I was a writer for a television show 980 01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:55,800 Speaker 2: called Personality. All you had to do was write questions. 981 01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:59,559 Speaker 2: And then I decided I didn't like TV. I didn't 982 01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,960 Speaker 2: like that, I didn't like being around it. And that 983 01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:07,920 Speaker 2: was when when I must have met Bob Zachary through Inky, 984 01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:11,920 Speaker 2: and I went in the direction of music. 985 01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:15,840 Speaker 1: Two questions. How long did you write questions for personality? 986 01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:20,280 Speaker 2: Not that long because I knew I didn't like it. 987 01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:24,040 Speaker 2: I really don't remember it a long time ago. 988 01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:25,599 Speaker 1: And where is Inky today? 989 01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:32,160 Speaker 2: I think she's in Greece. She married a Greek film producer. 990 01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:37,640 Speaker 1: Okay, so you leave Electric Records with another job or 991 01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:39,240 Speaker 1: you just say I can't take it anymore. 992 01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:43,640 Speaker 2: Oh, no, no job. When I leave things, I normally 993 01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:47,160 Speaker 2: don't at the moment have something that I'm going to. 994 01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:50,920 Speaker 2: I just am like, I don't want to do this anymore. 995 01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:57,960 Speaker 2: And I decided I had for my sister made studded 996 01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:04,240 Speaker 2: leather belts, and I knew I could sell them to 997 01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:08,120 Speaker 2: some of the musicians that I've met. And I also, 998 01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:15,520 Speaker 2: uh became a peddler in New York. I had these puppets, 999 01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:25,320 Speaker 2: uh marionettes. One is actually up there still. I would 1000 01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:29,439 Speaker 2: go to l A hold on if you don't, Oh, 1001 01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:34,280 Speaker 2: I can't get up there anyway. I wanted to show. Oh, 1002 01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:40,120 Speaker 2: but she looks just like me, and uh, so I 1003 01:14:40,160 --> 01:14:45,320 Speaker 2: would sit uh with my marionettes at the episcopal. 1004 01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:47,120 Speaker 1: Well you went to where did the you talked about 1005 01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:49,519 Speaker 1: going to l a, and where did the marionettes come from? 1006 01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:53,640 Speaker 2: My sister and I went over to Tijuana and I 1007 01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:58,360 Speaker 2: saw these marionettes and I said, oh, I can sell those, 1008 01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:03,599 Speaker 2: sou So I bought dozens of them, and I told 1009 01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:07,560 Speaker 2: them when I went through the you know the customs, 1010 01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,519 Speaker 2: you know where you drive through with your car, that 1011 01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:13,120 Speaker 2: I was a school teacher and I was bringing them back, 1012 01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:19,280 Speaker 2: you know, for my kids. And then I sold them 1013 01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:21,719 Speaker 2: for a while on this street. 1014 01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:23,320 Speaker 1: How much was the puppet? 1015 01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:29,519 Speaker 2: I still have the case, one for three, two for five. 1016 01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:36,280 Speaker 2: And I would sit there from about four point thirty 1017 01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:41,800 Speaker 2: to six o'clock and I would make at least three 1018 01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:44,480 Speaker 2: hundred dollars in cash. 1019 01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:45,040 Speaker 1: Wow. 1020 01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:49,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, because people were leaving work walking down Fifth Avenue 1021 01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:52,920 Speaker 2: so they could bring a marionette home for their kid, 1022 01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:57,439 Speaker 2: you know. And I just did that for a while 1023 01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:00,080 Speaker 2: to be able to have money to figure out what 1024 01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:01,360 Speaker 2: is it I really wanted to do. 1025 01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:04,439 Speaker 1: Wait one second, were you just standing there by the 1026 01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:07,960 Speaker 1: cash box or were you playing with the marionette? Were 1027 01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:10,840 Speaker 1: you closing the people? How much? Were you a salesperson? 1028 01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:14,320 Speaker 2: Oh? I have a picture there. I had. I have 1029 01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:19,320 Speaker 2: a picture of me doing it. I didn't have to 1030 01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:21,840 Speaker 2: sell much. I mean, I just I had a case 1031 01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:25,200 Speaker 2: that was open and it said one for three, two 1032 01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:27,640 Speaker 2: for five, and I just sat there and played with 1033 01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:31,280 Speaker 2: my marionettes and people would buy them. And that was that. 1034 01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:35,320 Speaker 2: It was easy and I could do other things. You know, 1035 01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,280 Speaker 2: I had enough money to pay my rent to eat food. 1036 01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:42,040 Speaker 2: That was what I, you know, cared most about. 1037 01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:44,800 Speaker 1: So you did that for how long? And then what? 1038 01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:49,000 Speaker 2: I don't remember it. I don't I didn't do it 1039 01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:54,839 Speaker 2: for that long, don't. I don't really remember. 1040 01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:56,479 Speaker 1: Well, what was the next job after that? 1041 01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:08,519 Speaker 2: After that? That was when I met Joshua White of 1042 01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:10,840 Speaker 2: the Fillmore East and. 1043 01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:15,480 Speaker 1: West that ultimately switched from Joshua to Joe. Was Joshua 1044 01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:18,599 Speaker 1: still doing the light show at the Fillmore East when 1045 01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:19,080 Speaker 1: you met him? 1046 01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:24,800 Speaker 2: No, he was starting a new company called Joshua Television. 1047 01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:29,280 Speaker 1: How did you meet Joshuaite. 1048 01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:33,080 Speaker 2: Through my sister. They were both going to the airport 1049 01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:35,559 Speaker 2: to England and I went in the car with my 1050 01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:39,519 Speaker 2: sister and that's how I met josh And then when 1051 01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:43,320 Speaker 2: josh came back from England, he called me up. We 1052 01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:47,720 Speaker 2: talked about what he was doing, and yeah, one thing, 1053 01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:50,599 Speaker 2: you know, you just keep working. One thing leads to 1054 01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:54,920 Speaker 2: another and do the things that you love to do. 1055 01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:58,519 Speaker 1: Okay, So you went to work with josh What were 1056 01:17:58,520 --> 01:17:59,120 Speaker 1: you doing there? 1057 01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:07,400 Speaker 2: I was, well, I was a few things. I was 1058 01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,600 Speaker 2: a director because we did a thing called video magnification. 1059 01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:15,240 Speaker 2: No one had really done that before. You see it 1060 01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,479 Speaker 2: all the time now, large screens at events, and we 1061 01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:25,640 Speaker 2: basically did the Hollywood Bowl and the Guarden. And that 1062 01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:31,040 Speaker 2: was how I ended up at ABC was because we 1063 01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:33,160 Speaker 2: did that for I don't know a year or so, 1064 01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:38,519 Speaker 2: and then ABC came to Joshua and said that they 1065 01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:45,000 Speaker 2: wanted him to work on the first late night rock 1066 01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:48,080 Speaker 2: and roll TV show. So when I worked with Joshua, 1067 01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:52,960 Speaker 2: I called all the shots that were not being recorded 1068 01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:57,719 Speaker 2: that were live, and he called what was going to camera? 1069 01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:03,040 Speaker 2: So that really helped. And I'd studied television directing, but 1070 01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:06,800 Speaker 2: actually doing it like that for a period of time, 1071 01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:13,840 Speaker 2: you know, really increased my skill and my confidence. 1072 01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:15,920 Speaker 1: And this is in concert. 1073 01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:18,519 Speaker 2: Yes, ABC in concert? 1074 01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,559 Speaker 1: Okay, So how do you leave there to go to 1075 01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:22,559 Speaker 1: work for Grand Funk? 1076 01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:27,679 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, you leave Grand Funk. 1077 01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:28,599 Speaker 1: Then what do you do? 1078 01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:37,679 Speaker 2: Oh? By that time I decided that it was always 1079 01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:44,040 Speaker 2: photography that allowed me to travel meet people, do a 1080 01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:48,479 Speaker 2: variety of different things. So I thought I'll just take 1081 01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:50,320 Speaker 2: pictures and see what happens. 1082 01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:53,080 Speaker 1: Just a little bit slow when you how skilled were 1083 01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:56,000 Speaker 1: you as a photographer and were you getting paid to 1084 01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:58,839 Speaker 1: be a photographer before you made that decision. 1085 01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:03,120 Speaker 2: Well, when I did all the stuff for Grand Funk, 1086 01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:05,880 Speaker 2: you know, I did the three D album cover, that 1087 01:20:06,080 --> 01:20:09,479 Speaker 2: was a first and learning how to do things. I mean, 1088 01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:12,880 Speaker 2: no one had ever done a three D cover. In 1089 01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:18,960 Speaker 2: part was just me figuring it out. I don't think 1090 01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:22,439 Speaker 2: it's so hard to figure how to do things, and 1091 01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:27,400 Speaker 2: I was self taught in photography. I just to me 1092 01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:31,960 Speaker 2: balancing light and time, and then it's about the eye 1093 01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:36,959 Speaker 2: that you have. So and when it comes to pictures 1094 01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:40,479 Speaker 2: with people, it's about directing, which you know, I'm a 1095 01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:46,400 Speaker 2: control freak, so I direct and it suited me. But 1096 01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:50,679 Speaker 2: it also suited me because I wasn't tied down by 1097 01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:56,519 Speaker 2: a lot of people or meetings. I could just make 1098 01:20:56,560 --> 01:21:00,200 Speaker 2: my pictures. One of the things when I was directing 1099 01:21:01,080 --> 01:21:07,280 Speaker 2: for in concert was someone from a record label was 1100 01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:10,120 Speaker 2: in the mobile unit while I was calling my shots, 1101 01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:13,439 Speaker 2: and he saw my storyboard and said he wanted to 1102 01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:16,000 Speaker 2: use one of the pictures on the storyboard for an 1103 01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:18,960 Speaker 2: album cover and I said how much and he said 1104 01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:22,000 Speaker 2: one thousand dollars And I said, what about fifteen hundred 1105 01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:25,120 Speaker 2: And he said, okay, I got fifteen hundred. I get 1106 01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:28,600 Speaker 2: paid five hundred dollars to direct this show. And you know, 1107 01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:30,720 Speaker 2: I have to go to all these meetings and it's 1108 01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:34,400 Speaker 2: so aggravating, and I deal with stupid people that you 1109 01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:37,120 Speaker 2: know that it was like what am I doing? You know? 1110 01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:44,519 Speaker 2: So that was a key to me. Also, I knew 1111 01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:50,639 Speaker 2: from Grand Funk, from taking pictures of them and supplying them, 1112 01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:54,120 Speaker 2: that there was a market around the world. It wasn't 1113 01:21:54,200 --> 01:21:58,599 Speaker 2: just magazines in America. You know, there's Japanese magazines, there's 1114 01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:03,800 Speaker 2: French magazines, things that German magazines, things that like you 1115 01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:09,320 Speaker 2: just don't think of if you're not thinking about, you know, 1116 01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:16,400 Speaker 2: being a professional in that field. So I just decided, 1117 01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:19,320 Speaker 2: you know what, for a while, it's just going to 1118 01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:20,519 Speaker 2: be me and my camera. 1119 01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:23,440 Speaker 1: So how'd you get gigs? 1120 01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:31,000 Speaker 2: Either? I made pictures and I took them around, Like 1121 01:22:31,160 --> 01:22:36,519 Speaker 2: for example, I took pictures with one of my dolls 1122 01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:39,320 Speaker 2: and I called it rape of the Doll, and I 1123 01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:44,080 Speaker 2: took it to the National Lampoon and Anne Beats was 1124 01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:47,519 Speaker 2: doing the first She was the editor of the first 1125 01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:55,920 Speaker 2: all women edition of the Lampoon and she published My 1126 01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:59,040 Speaker 2: Rape of a Doll. And by being friends with Anne, 1127 01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:04,960 Speaker 2: then I at all these other people from the Lampoon 1128 01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:12,040 Speaker 2: and I started writing and shooting photo fundies for them. 1129 01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:17,519 Speaker 2: You know, just one thing leads to another. 1130 01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:20,920 Speaker 1: It actually doesn't that, but we'll get to that in 1131 01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:23,920 Speaker 1: a minute. So how do you end up shooting musicians? 1132 01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:33,040 Speaker 2: Ah well, I had friends who were musicians, and you know, 1133 01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:38,240 Speaker 2: it's the subject. I'm not really into force people, not 1134 01:23:38,360 --> 01:23:42,559 Speaker 2: that I wouldn't photograph them, but those were my friends, 1135 01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:47,639 Speaker 2: those those were those were the people that I felt 1136 01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:53,240 Speaker 2: closest to be my tribe. I've always been about images 1137 01:23:53,520 --> 01:24:01,080 Speaker 2: and music. You know, those those two things have uh 1138 01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:06,679 Speaker 2: have definitely made up who I am. You know, That's 1139 01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:09,960 Speaker 2: what world powers is. Uh, it's a a strault of 1140 01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:16,160 Speaker 2: where imagery meets you know, music. My videos that were 1141 01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:20,280 Speaker 2: not made to be advertisements for a record. They were 1142 01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:26,719 Speaker 2: made to make the idea bigger than just a song. 1143 01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:35,040 Speaker 2: So you know it's I'm turned on by by finding 1144 01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:42,120 Speaker 2: new things and figuring out how to take things that 1145 01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:46,519 Speaker 2: already exist and applying them in new ways. So a 1146 01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:50,200 Speaker 2: lot of the time, you know, I worked on beck. 1147 01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:55,519 Speaker 2: I mean when I started shooting let's say, pictures of 1148 01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:59,400 Speaker 2: Patty Smith, who you've become. You know, I've become friends 1149 01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:04,639 Speaker 2: with her. We're still friends. It was more about because 1150 01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,880 Speaker 2: I liked your Patty did I liked what she looked like. 1151 01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:12,280 Speaker 2: I'll make some pictures and then I always felt, just 1152 01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:15,720 Speaker 2: like I could with the Marionettes, I'll go present them 1153 01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:18,800 Speaker 2: to the label or management and I can sell them. 1154 01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:24,719 Speaker 2: And I would say probably ninety percent of my career 1155 01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:30,400 Speaker 2: in that area of photography is me doing it and 1156 01:25:30,439 --> 01:25:32,519 Speaker 2: then selling it, not being hired. 1157 01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:38,880 Speaker 1: Okay, how did it graduate to being hired? 1158 01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:42,320 Speaker 2: I'm not hired that often. 1159 01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:45,519 Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to when you start doing it. 1160 01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:49,400 Speaker 1: In the seventies and eighties, were labels and other people 1161 01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:53,080 Speaker 1: calling you to shoot different things, or was always the 1162 01:25:53,120 --> 01:25:54,839 Speaker 1: same you're shooting and you're selling. 1163 01:25:56,800 --> 01:25:59,240 Speaker 2: Oh no, there's a mix. But more of it was 1164 01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:02,799 Speaker 2: me shooting and selling. And then there were times where 1165 01:26:03,240 --> 01:26:05,400 Speaker 2: you know, I might have been the flavor of the 1166 01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:09,840 Speaker 2: month for the art director at Columbia or the art 1167 01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:12,400 Speaker 2: director at Warner Brothers, you know, and then they're on 1168 01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:18,240 Speaker 2: to something else. But I would say for the most part, 1169 01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:22,200 Speaker 2: you know, you just keep on working, making work, whether 1170 01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:28,560 Speaker 2: whether they're hiring or not. And you know, like, for example, 1171 01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:36,559 Speaker 2: I saw for Exampa when I was riding my bike 1172 01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:39,759 Speaker 2: in New York, and I saw him go into the 1173 01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:43,599 Speaker 2: Saint Regis Hotel, and so I wrote a letter and 1174 01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:46,120 Speaker 2: I dropped it off and I said in my letter, 1175 01:26:47,479 --> 01:26:51,280 Speaker 2: you know about how if he came to my studio, 1176 01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:56,120 Speaker 2: it would cost me about at least one thousand dollars, 1177 01:26:56,120 --> 01:27:00,320 Speaker 2: which is a lot of money to a Jewish shoot 1178 01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:03,720 Speaker 2: with him. But during that shoot, I'd shoot enough setups 1179 01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:07,240 Speaker 2: that I could then go sell them to all the magazines, 1180 01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:11,720 Speaker 2: and he could approve what would go out, and if 1181 01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:16,760 Speaker 2: he didn't like my pictures, we'd kill them. And so 1182 01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:20,280 Speaker 2: he only had like an hour or two to lose, 1183 01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:23,360 Speaker 2: whereas I had one thousand dollars to lose. And I 1184 01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:27,160 Speaker 2: wouldn't be offering this because I'm not stupid that I 1185 01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:33,439 Speaker 2: want to lose one thousand dollars. So Frank responded and 1186 01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:36,400 Speaker 2: called me, and he came over and we did the 1187 01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:41,200 Speaker 2: pictures and like for eleven years, I mean, from then on, anytime, 1188 01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:45,840 Speaker 2: the record label or someone wanted pictures. Frank was hiring me, 1189 01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:50,559 Speaker 2: So every situation is different. But I went ahead and 1190 01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:54,799 Speaker 2: did that with Frank because I really respected Frank Zampa 1191 01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:56,519 Speaker 2: and wanted to work. 1192 01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:08,040 Speaker 1: Okay, you're working in the music area. You talk about 1193 01:28:08,040 --> 01:28:11,920 Speaker 1: your friend Nancy and Life magazine, you talk about national geographic. 1194 01:28:12,439 --> 01:28:15,920 Speaker 1: How does it spread out into non music world? 1195 01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:19,280 Speaker 2: Oh well, I felt I had to do that in 1196 01:28:19,400 --> 01:28:22,639 Speaker 2: order to stay sane. In other words, if I kept 1197 01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:25,679 Speaker 2: bringing up music pictures, let's say the newsweek or Time 1198 01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:30,840 Speaker 2: for the people section, or you know, just saying why 1199 01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:36,479 Speaker 2: don't you consider this, then when things happened, you know, 1200 01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:39,160 Speaker 2: you get to know those people. And then when things 1201 01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:44,400 Speaker 2: happened like Challenger the you know, I went to Florida 1202 01:28:44,479 --> 01:28:48,840 Speaker 2: for the UH spaceship that unfortunately blew up with the 1203 01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:53,200 Speaker 2: teacher on it and everything. You know, you get those 1204 01:28:53,400 --> 01:28:58,080 Speaker 2: kinds of jobs too, you know. There's all I didn't 1205 01:28:58,200 --> 01:29:01,439 Speaker 2: want to just shoot music. There are people, you know, 1206 01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:05,719 Speaker 2: like Danny Clinch who's a wonderful photographer, but he only 1207 01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:10,040 Speaker 2: wants to shoot music. That's what he does, right. I'm 1208 01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:13,400 Speaker 2: not like that. I'm not one thing. I'm not And 1209 01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:17,240 Speaker 2: just as much as I shot music. I shot movie stars, 1210 01:29:17,439 --> 01:29:20,800 Speaker 2: maybe not just as much, but quite a bit, you know. 1211 01:29:20,960 --> 01:29:25,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I did Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back. I 1212 01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:29,400 Speaker 2: just saw the other day someone posted a nineteen eighty 1213 01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:33,320 Speaker 2: eight cover of one of my studio portraits of Griffin Dunn. 1214 01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:39,000 Speaker 2: You know. So I have a very wide range, and 1215 01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:45,320 Speaker 2: in part it hurts me because when people, especially nowadays, 1216 01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:47,639 Speaker 2: where there's so much coming at us all the time, 1217 01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:51,280 Speaker 2: when they think of you, they need to have you 1218 01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:55,040 Speaker 2: in a box, they need to associate you with one 1219 01:29:55,120 --> 01:29:59,200 Speaker 2: thing because there's just too much going on. And that's 1220 01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:03,160 Speaker 2: not who I've ever been. I'm a lot of different things, 1221 01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:09,600 Speaker 2: you know. And that's the way it is for me. 1222 01:30:09,680 --> 01:30:12,440 Speaker 2: And it has its pluses and it's minuses. 1223 01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:16,320 Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to this era. You shoot, Frank, 1224 01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:19,680 Speaker 1: You're going to the magazine's selling pictures. How do you 1225 01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:20,719 Speaker 1: establish the price? 1226 01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:25,360 Speaker 2: Oh well, they have rates. You learn that, but you know, 1227 01:30:25,439 --> 01:30:28,639 Speaker 2: you ask questions. They have a rate for a quarter page, 1228 01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:32,639 Speaker 2: a half page, a full page, a cover. And then 1229 01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:38,240 Speaker 2: also I joined the ASMP, there are unions that will 1230 01:30:38,280 --> 01:30:42,120 Speaker 2: tell you, you know, what the guideline is to be paid. 1231 01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:46,000 Speaker 2: But like for example, when I first started working for Newsweek. 1232 01:30:46,439 --> 01:30:48,959 Speaker 2: They told me the day rate was three hundred dollars. 1233 01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:52,720 Speaker 2: And then I talked to my friends later on who 1234 01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:56,160 Speaker 2: are gods, and I said, how much do you get paid? 1235 01:30:56,200 --> 01:31:01,840 Speaker 2: They get paid five hundred dollars. So it's your job 1236 01:31:01,920 --> 01:31:04,519 Speaker 2: to educate. So I went back to music and I said, 1237 01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:10,000 Speaker 2: I'm five hundred dollars from now on, right, So you 1238 01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:14,200 Speaker 2: just have to educate yourself and take responsibility for it. 1239 01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:17,639 Speaker 2: You can't blame somebody for wanting to get a deal 1240 01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:22,280 Speaker 2: on you, you know, but then don't let yourself be used. 1241 01:31:23,240 --> 01:31:26,160 Speaker 1: How about the issue of being fearful that the price 1242 01:31:26,240 --> 01:31:27,800 Speaker 1: is too high, they'll go to somebody else. 1243 01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:34,439 Speaker 2: Let them go. That's how it works, you know, That's 1244 01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:38,599 Speaker 2: how you set your price. Unfortunately, there are too many, 1245 01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:43,040 Speaker 2: especially photographers, that think this way, and that's why it 1246 01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:46,200 Speaker 2: has so lowered the market. 1247 01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:50,560 Speaker 1: Okay, so you talked about going to shoot the Challenger, 1248 01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:54,880 Speaker 1: which ended up being a disaster. That was a hired gig. 1249 01:31:55,040 --> 01:32:00,280 Speaker 1: Right the Newsweek or whatever said hey, good, oh. 1250 01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:03,320 Speaker 2: I would yeah, or I would call them up. By 1251 01:32:03,360 --> 01:32:08,200 Speaker 2: this time, you know, things weren't email and texts and 1252 01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:10,920 Speaker 2: all of that. You went up to the publication, I 1253 01:32:10,960 --> 01:32:14,160 Speaker 2: had years of like being up there knowing them, and 1254 01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:17,000 Speaker 2: I could say I really want to cover this, and 1255 01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:19,559 Speaker 2: they know I'm good, so they would say yes. But 1256 01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:23,000 Speaker 2: it was most and it's not just me. Most photographers 1257 01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:27,840 Speaker 2: do suggest like when I went to a Life magazine 1258 01:32:28,200 --> 01:32:33,080 Speaker 2: and said, I want to do a story on Tony Robbins. 1259 01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:35,840 Speaker 2: And here's why, you know, I want to do a 1260 01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:39,479 Speaker 2: story on this or that. If they think it's a 1261 01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:41,720 Speaker 2: good story, they'll send you. 1262 01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:45,679 Speaker 1: And then there was like a going rate you knew 1263 01:32:45,840 --> 01:32:48,759 Speaker 1: to charge for that or was it a negotiation every time? 1264 01:32:49,360 --> 01:32:53,679 Speaker 2: No, there were when you work for a publication there 1265 01:32:54,479 --> 01:32:57,479 Speaker 2: you know, there always is a day rate or what 1266 01:32:57,520 --> 01:32:59,479 Speaker 2: they call a day rate against space. 1267 01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:04,800 Speaker 1: And then how'd you end up shooting movie stars? 1268 01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:11,160 Speaker 2: Probably well I wanted to, but also like I met 1269 01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:14,759 Speaker 2: uh I don't remember who were the first movie stars 1270 01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:22,679 Speaker 2: I photographed, but I met Carrie Fisher and we became friends. 1271 01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:25,120 Speaker 2: It wasn't a matter of shooting, we were just friends. 1272 01:33:25,640 --> 01:33:27,800 Speaker 2: And then when it came time for the film, she 1273 01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:32,320 Speaker 2: insisted that I had to be the photographer, you know, 1274 01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:35,559 Speaker 2: so then you do one thing and that leads to 1275 01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:38,720 Speaker 2: another thing. But I used to do a lot of 1276 01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:49,840 Speaker 2: suggesting to Newsweek in time of who I thought would 1277 01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:53,559 Speaker 2: be good for them to do a story or a 1278 01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:56,519 Speaker 2: little peith on in that section in the people section. 1279 01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:00,000 Speaker 2: I mean, my first cover of People was Sissy Space. 1280 01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:07,280 Speaker 2: That was shot. Sissy actually called me up because she 1281 01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:10,679 Speaker 2: wanted to meet Patty Smith, and I said, well, I'd 1282 01:34:10,720 --> 01:34:13,280 Speaker 2: like to do pictures with you. I can have Patty 1283 01:34:13,360 --> 01:34:17,200 Speaker 2: come over, you know, And then I ran them around 1284 01:34:17,280 --> 01:34:22,080 Speaker 2: to the magazine and People Magazine used it as a cover, 1285 01:34:22,479 --> 01:34:26,240 Speaker 2: so people might think I shot it for People Magazine, 1286 01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:29,519 Speaker 2: but I didn't, you know, I shot it for me. 1287 01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:33,320 Speaker 2: And that takes a lot of pressure off as well, 1288 01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:37,360 Speaker 2: because you're when you're working with these people, you're just 1289 01:34:37,479 --> 01:34:44,760 Speaker 2: trying to collaborate and make something, you know, fun, and 1290 01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:49,480 Speaker 2: that makes them look good. It's not brain surgery. 1291 01:34:50,040 --> 01:34:53,000 Speaker 1: How big a switch was it for you personally to 1292 01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:56,040 Speaker 1: go from film to digital and were you an early 1293 01:34:56,080 --> 01:34:57,400 Speaker 1: adopter or lad adopter? 1294 01:34:58,160 --> 01:35:06,320 Speaker 2: Early very early. I'm always interested in new technologies and 1295 01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:13,640 Speaker 2: I saw them as different forms of expression and still do. 1296 01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:18,120 Speaker 2: Film is different than digital, and it's not that one 1297 01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:22,640 Speaker 2: is better than another. They're different and you choose them 1298 01:35:23,920 --> 01:35:27,960 Speaker 2: based on what you're thinking you want to experience and 1299 01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:30,000 Speaker 2: what you want the outcome to beate. 1300 01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:33,320 Speaker 1: And do you still shoot film sometimes? 1301 01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:37,439 Speaker 2: Sometimes I have a refrigerator full of it, Yeah, all 1302 01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:40,400 Speaker 2: ready to go. But I don't like the idea of 1303 01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:43,320 Speaker 2: then you scan it you know, because everyone wants to 1304 01:35:43,400 --> 01:35:44,760 Speaker 2: look at it digital, right? 1305 01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:48,360 Speaker 1: And what editing program do you use? 1306 01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:55,720 Speaker 2: Lightroom okay? And also photo Mechanic, And what's. 1307 01:35:55,479 --> 01:36:02,800 Speaker 1: Your opinion about the ability to edit pictures so much? 1308 01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:05,360 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I'm just even on a user level. 1309 01:36:06,040 --> 01:36:08,639 Speaker 1: Google introduced a new pixel where you can do all 1310 01:36:08,720 --> 01:36:12,360 Speaker 1: kinds of things, eliminating people from the picture, putting people in. 1311 01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:16,000 Speaker 1: Do you have a philosophy on that? No. 1312 01:36:16,120 --> 01:36:19,320 Speaker 2: I actually did a body of work of self portraits 1313 01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:28,320 Speaker 2: where I photographed windows in New York City because it 1314 01:36:28,439 --> 01:36:34,519 Speaker 2: was the whole series was an investigation into identity and 1315 01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:37,040 Speaker 2: how do we pick what we're going to wear, what 1316 01:36:37,080 --> 01:36:43,720 Speaker 2: we want to look like, what are our body models? 1317 01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:49,400 Speaker 2: And in it nothing is really real. I remove things 1318 01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:54,360 Speaker 2: from the window and then I add other photographs, so 1319 01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:56,840 Speaker 2: when you look at the final photograph, it looks like 1320 01:36:56,920 --> 01:36:59,800 Speaker 2: it's one photograph, but it could be one hundred photographs. 1321 01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:05,240 Speaker 2: I was creating images which question what's real from what's imagined. 1322 01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:10,040 Speaker 2: Starting in like two thousand, I started working on that 1323 01:37:10,200 --> 01:37:15,360 Speaker 2: series and did it seriously and intently for ten years. 1324 01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:22,479 Speaker 2: And so how I feel about it is if an 1325 01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:29,000 Speaker 2: artist wants to use that to make work which is 1326 01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:34,560 Speaker 2: a certain kind of expression of their ideas, that's their choice. 1327 01:37:35,439 --> 01:37:39,479 Speaker 2: Me I spent enough time in front of the computer 1328 01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:45,840 Speaker 2: screen for ten years that I'm just not interested in 1329 01:37:46,960 --> 01:37:56,560 Speaker 2: changing up reality and doesn't I'm done. 1330 01:37:55,560 --> 01:37:58,280 Speaker 1: Okay, tell my audience about the Worldhole case, which went 1331 01:37:58,320 --> 01:37:59,639 Speaker 1: all the way to the Supreme Court. 1332 01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:10,000 Speaker 2: Well, there are often people, whether it's on social media 1333 01:38:10,439 --> 01:38:21,240 Speaker 2: or individuals who think that they can make work from 1334 01:38:21,600 --> 01:38:28,640 Speaker 2: your work that don't really understand the cost and what 1335 01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:35,280 Speaker 2: goes into making that original image and the relationships. And 1336 01:38:35,400 --> 01:38:40,800 Speaker 2: so I've always been quite protective of my copyright. And 1337 01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:49,000 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four, an image of an image that 1338 01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:53,040 Speaker 2: I had made in nineteen eighty one of the artist 1339 01:38:53,240 --> 01:39:03,320 Speaker 2: Prince was used for an an artist illustration one time 1340 01:39:03,439 --> 01:39:08,920 Speaker 2: in Vanity Fair. I was unaware of it, and I 1341 01:39:08,960 --> 01:39:12,280 Speaker 2: didn't know who the artist was. I had an agency 1342 01:39:12,439 --> 01:39:18,839 Speaker 2: that licensed rights to my pictures and to other people's pictures, 1343 01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:24,479 Speaker 2: and so when Prince died in twenty sixteen. I saw 1344 01:39:26,360 --> 01:39:30,639 Speaker 2: this image of prints on the cover of what's called 1345 01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:33,920 Speaker 2: a boocasine that Vanity Fair puts out. It's when the 1346 01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:38,920 Speaker 2: whole addition is dedicated, you know, to a specific artist. 1347 01:39:39,760 --> 01:39:44,080 Speaker 2: They call them bookasines, even though it's amagazine, and so 1348 01:39:45,680 --> 01:39:54,840 Speaker 2: it looked familiar to me, and I went through my No, 1349 01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:57,160 Speaker 2: I know what I did look familiar to me, So 1350 01:39:57,200 --> 01:40:02,120 Speaker 2: I put it in Google Images and up came the 1351 01:40:02,360 --> 01:40:06,479 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article. That's how I knew 1352 01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:10,439 Speaker 2: like it is mine because my credit was there in 1353 01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:18,559 Speaker 2: the nineteen eighty four publication. And so I went and 1354 01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:21,960 Speaker 2: I looked for my invoice that had been made out 1355 01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:26,519 Speaker 2: to Vanity Fair and the submission for any paperwork, which 1356 01:40:26,680 --> 01:40:29,439 Speaker 2: I save all of that because I'm well aware of 1357 01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:37,679 Speaker 2: how that can determine rights to your work. And called 1358 01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:41,720 Speaker 2: up the Warhol Foundation and explained that it had just 1359 01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:45,240 Speaker 2: come to my attention and that I'd like to talk 1360 01:40:45,320 --> 01:40:49,080 Speaker 2: to them about this. And I sent them the picture 1361 01:40:49,439 --> 01:40:57,560 Speaker 2: the invoice, and I said, you know, I'd like to 1362 01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:01,640 Speaker 2: find out what else you done with it other than this, 1363 01:41:03,040 --> 01:41:06,840 Speaker 2: because no one ever licensed any rights from me, and 1364 01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:11,360 Speaker 2: to make a long story short, they did what's called 1365 01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:16,559 Speaker 2: a preemptive lawsuit. They sued me in federal court and 1366 01:41:16,600 --> 01:41:21,479 Speaker 2: then basically offered me a very small amount of money 1367 01:41:21,560 --> 01:41:27,280 Speaker 2: and if I would give them my copyright and otherwise, 1368 01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:34,200 Speaker 2: I should realize that they have very deep pockets and 1369 01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:37,479 Speaker 2: that they no matter what court I win in, they 1370 01:41:37,520 --> 01:41:40,920 Speaker 2: will continue to appeal it all the way to the 1371 01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:45,600 Speaker 2: Supreme Court, and that could cost me millions of dollars. 1372 01:41:46,320 --> 01:41:50,479 Speaker 1: Just so my audience understand, Andy Whirlhole essentially had painted 1373 01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:53,439 Speaker 1: on top of your photo, and that's what we're talking about. 1374 01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:56,840 Speaker 2: Well, he made a silk screen, and the process of 1375 01:41:57,040 --> 01:41:59,799 Speaker 2: making a silk screen you take a black and white 1376 01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:02,840 Speaker 2: there's a high contrast of it, and then you take 1377 01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:05,519 Speaker 2: these inks and you go over it, and then you 1378 01:42:05,560 --> 01:42:08,000 Speaker 2: could put paint on it if you want it, but 1379 01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:12,920 Speaker 2: it starts that. That's more or less the process. And 1380 01:42:14,320 --> 01:42:18,000 Speaker 2: it was licensed for one time print use in one 1381 01:42:18,320 --> 01:42:22,800 Speaker 2: edition of Vanity Fair. I had no idea that there 1382 01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:27,759 Speaker 2: were sixteen silk screens and a range of other things 1383 01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:31,920 Speaker 2: that had happened with it. You know, Andy Air re 1384 01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:37,960 Speaker 2: licensediff from me, and nobody else had either, you know, So. 1385 01:42:40,439 --> 01:42:47,639 Speaker 1: Anyway, so they basically have a preemptive lawsuit, basically saying 1386 01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:52,520 Speaker 1: take this offer or will bury you in paper and costs. 1387 01:42:52,920 --> 01:42:56,559 Speaker 2: That's right, And the paper was filled with a bunch 1388 01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:00,600 Speaker 2: of lies, which really got me upset. Said that I 1389 01:43:00,800 --> 01:43:04,320 Speaker 2: tried to extort them, which is absolutely not true. They 1390 01:43:04,360 --> 01:43:07,040 Speaker 2: didn't use the black and white image that I sent them. 1391 01:43:07,080 --> 01:43:10,080 Speaker 2: They used a color image, and they showed in the 1392 01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:14,200 Speaker 2: federal court documents how the color image the head was 1393 01:43:14,280 --> 01:43:17,280 Speaker 2: turned a little bit. Well, it wasn't the color image. 1394 01:43:17,320 --> 01:43:19,760 Speaker 2: It was a black and white image. In addition, they 1395 01:43:19,800 --> 01:43:23,880 Speaker 2: showed the nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article and they 1396 01:43:23,960 --> 01:43:29,880 Speaker 2: removed my name. It was all so gangster like and 1397 01:43:30,800 --> 01:43:35,080 Speaker 2: bullying that I just said, hey, I got to stand 1398 01:43:35,160 --> 01:43:38,240 Speaker 2: up and fight this. And I thought to myself, you know, 1399 01:43:38,320 --> 01:43:44,639 Speaker 2: I keep hearing from so many artists, whether they are musicians, writers, photographers, 1400 01:43:45,240 --> 01:43:48,679 Speaker 2: who are sick of people just taking their stuff. I'm 1401 01:43:48,720 --> 01:43:52,400 Speaker 2: going to have a go fund me because what's important 1402 01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:57,360 Speaker 2: here is that we tighten up the definition of what 1403 01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:05,240 Speaker 2: is fair use. It's very clear in you know, in 1404 01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:11,800 Speaker 2: the in the legal definition. However, in my opinion, but 1405 01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:18,959 Speaker 2: there have been various court rulings where the person fighting 1406 01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:23,200 Speaker 2: it maybe didn't have real good representation, and it kept 1407 01:44:23,240 --> 01:44:29,160 Speaker 2: making the definition of fair use more broad, more and 1408 01:44:29,280 --> 01:44:35,639 Speaker 2: more broad, and I just you know, this lawsuit started 1409 01:44:35,720 --> 01:44:42,400 Speaker 2: in the era of the presidency of Donald Trump, and 1410 01:44:42,479 --> 01:44:47,080 Speaker 2: I just couldn't take any more bullying, pushing around threats 1411 01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:51,160 Speaker 2: of lawsuits, and I said, I'm going to make this 1412 01:44:51,240 --> 01:44:55,160 Speaker 2: go fund me and if every even every professional photographer, 1413 01:44:55,160 --> 01:44:58,439 Speaker 2: of which there's one hundred and ninety thousand listed in 1414 01:44:58,479 --> 01:45:04,439 Speaker 2: the United States alone, ten dollars, I'd be in good shape. 1415 01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:08,880 Speaker 2: And so unfortunately the GoFundMe, which is still there, if 1416 01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:12,920 Speaker 2: any of your listeners feel that they have a responsibility 1417 01:45:13,000 --> 01:45:19,720 Speaker 2: too to uh stand up and fight for copyright, I 1418 01:45:19,800 --> 01:45:21,920 Speaker 2: made it clear that there was no money in my 1419 01:45:22,040 --> 01:45:25,600 Speaker 2: GoFundMe for me to make and that should I be 1420 01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:30,599 Speaker 2: awarded any fees, that I would start a legal fund 1421 01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:36,040 Speaker 2: for other artists who you know, don't have the ability 1422 01:45:36,160 --> 01:45:41,719 Speaker 2: to you know, to fight this kind of fight. Anyway, 1423 01:45:42,400 --> 01:45:45,080 Speaker 2: it went, as we know, all the way to the 1424 01:45:45,120 --> 01:45:48,280 Speaker 2: Supreme Court, which was seven years. It was a lot 1425 01:45:48,320 --> 01:45:55,240 Speaker 2: of my time. It was stressful, it was financially very stressful, 1426 01:45:55,320 --> 01:46:01,600 Speaker 2: and unfortunately, the go fundme to date has raised about 1427 01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:07,040 Speaker 2: sixty eight thousand dollars, which is nowhere near what it 1428 01:46:07,200 --> 01:46:10,559 Speaker 2: costs to fight to take it all the way. But 1429 01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:15,360 Speaker 2: I do you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't change my 1430 01:46:15,920 --> 01:46:20,240 Speaker 2: decision because I felt like I couldn't live with myself 1431 01:46:20,400 --> 01:46:24,480 Speaker 2: if I just back down. It's not who I am. 1432 01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:28,560 Speaker 2: So you know, I sang Tom Petty's song to myself 1433 01:46:29,960 --> 01:46:36,400 Speaker 2: a number of times, and you know, and it's still 1434 01:46:36,400 --> 01:46:39,559 Speaker 2: not over with because it goes to the district court now, 1435 01:46:40,120 --> 01:46:45,080 Speaker 2: who decides if there are damages, and the Warhol people 1436 01:46:45,080 --> 01:46:49,439 Speaker 2: are threatening other things. So you know, I'll be glad 1437 01:46:49,479 --> 01:46:54,519 Speaker 2: when it's all over. But you know, it wasn't just 1438 01:46:54,600 --> 01:47:01,240 Speaker 2: a matter of me paying the legal these necessary to 1439 01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:04,920 Speaker 2: the level of lawyer that can fight, the level of 1440 01:47:05,080 --> 01:47:15,080 Speaker 2: lawyer that the foundation hires. But it's also about being 1441 01:47:15,120 --> 01:47:19,400 Speaker 2: able to kind of look at myself in the mirror, 1442 01:47:20,960 --> 01:47:27,960 Speaker 2: and you know, just feeling like if you don't stand 1443 01:47:28,080 --> 01:47:30,920 Speaker 2: up for your rights, you lose your rights. I've said 1444 01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:35,400 Speaker 2: that for a long time to other photographers, to other artists, 1445 01:47:35,680 --> 01:47:38,160 Speaker 2: and it's like here I was, you know, in a 1446 01:47:38,200 --> 01:47:43,320 Speaker 2: position of risking everything because should I have lost, they 1447 01:47:43,320 --> 01:47:47,000 Speaker 2: were also suing me for their legal fees, so it 1448 01:47:47,120 --> 01:47:51,559 Speaker 2: would have eaten up. I would not have a condo 1449 01:47:51,720 --> 01:47:55,080 Speaker 2: in Aspen or a condo in New York. I wouldn't 1450 01:47:55,080 --> 01:47:58,679 Speaker 2: even have a house in Nashville. I'd be on the street. 1451 01:47:59,360 --> 01:48:04,439 Speaker 2: So there was really a lot of risk for me. 1452 01:48:05,560 --> 01:48:07,120 Speaker 1: So how much are you out of pocket on the 1453 01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:07,879 Speaker 1: legal fees? 1454 01:48:08,760 --> 01:48:13,720 Speaker 2: Well, some of the legal fees are pro bono. So 1455 01:48:15,320 --> 01:48:19,799 Speaker 2: the total bill comes to about three point four million 1456 01:48:19,880 --> 01:48:24,080 Speaker 2: dollars and I'm probably out about half a million. 1457 01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:30,960 Speaker 1: Okay, just so my audience knows. Describe the Ultimate Supreme 1458 01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:31,719 Speaker 1: Court decision. 1459 01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:39,880 Speaker 2: The Ultimate Supreme Court decision tightens up what is transformative 1460 01:48:40,120 --> 01:48:44,920 Speaker 2: under the fair use aspect of the copyright law and 1461 01:48:45,400 --> 01:48:48,200 Speaker 2: how that affects us. If you go to the go fundme, 1462 01:48:48,720 --> 01:48:55,280 Speaker 2: it's gofunme dot com slash Warhol vs. Goldsmith. I explain 1463 01:48:55,439 --> 01:48:59,559 Speaker 2: and show how in all the arts, if I were 1464 01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:04,360 Speaker 2: to have lost this, okay, it would mean that if 1465 01:49:04,360 --> 01:49:07,000 Speaker 2: it was a song or another picture, you could just 1466 01:49:07,360 --> 01:49:11,280 Speaker 2: turn it another color, draw a circle around it, change 1467 01:49:11,280 --> 01:49:13,759 Speaker 2: a word or two here or there in a script, 1468 01:49:14,280 --> 01:49:17,400 Speaker 2: and you lose your copyright. And I really feel that 1469 01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:23,880 Speaker 2: copyrights are what has enabled our American culture to be 1470 01:49:24,120 --> 01:49:28,600 Speaker 2: so strong and so powerful, and what are we but 1471 01:49:28,800 --> 01:49:32,560 Speaker 2: our culture? You know, I want to be in places 1472 01:49:33,160 --> 01:49:35,160 Speaker 2: where that's valued. 1473 01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:38,959 Speaker 1: Okay, So just to nail it down, the Supreme Court 1474 01:49:39,400 --> 01:49:42,520 Speaker 1: ultimately ruled in your favor and said it was infringement. 1475 01:49:43,360 --> 01:49:45,599 Speaker 2: Yes, okay. 1476 01:49:46,280 --> 01:49:50,479 Speaker 1: So today, at this laid date, how much are you 1477 01:49:50,640 --> 01:49:54,080 Speaker 1: working and are you doing it the same way making 1478 01:49:54,160 --> 01:49:56,160 Speaker 1: pictures and then monetizing them. 1479 01:49:57,240 --> 01:50:01,080 Speaker 2: Well, I'm painting and then I'll just side. You know, 1480 01:50:01,640 --> 01:50:05,719 Speaker 2: if I'm selling my paintings, maybe someone will walk into 1481 01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:10,120 Speaker 2: my gallery and want one of my paintings. I work 1482 01:50:10,280 --> 01:50:19,640 Speaker 2: to talk about and promote my books. I have gallery shows, 1483 01:50:20,160 --> 01:50:25,760 Speaker 2: I have talked you know, I keep busy. Is that 1484 01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:26,639 Speaker 2: what you're asking? 1485 01:50:26,880 --> 01:50:31,439 Speaker 1: Well, that's partial. And to what degree are you making photographs? 1486 01:50:31,439 --> 01:50:39,639 Speaker 2: Oh? This past year probably less than ever, although when 1487 01:50:39,680 --> 01:50:46,400 Speaker 2: I'm in Colorado, I'm generally making them almost every day. 1488 01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:52,400 Speaker 1: Okay. Let's go back to thirty odds actually forty years 1489 01:50:52,439 --> 01:50:55,280 Speaker 1: ago at this point, what exactly happened between you and 1490 01:50:55,320 --> 01:50:57,439 Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen and Madison Square Garden. 1491 01:50:59,760 --> 01:51:04,639 Speaker 2: Well, I was involved with Musicians United for Safe Energy, 1492 01:51:05,680 --> 01:51:11,280 Speaker 2: Bruce was not, and I at the time also owned 1493 01:51:11,320 --> 01:51:17,320 Speaker 2: a company LGI, a photo agency, and so my company 1494 01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:23,320 Speaker 2: paid for MEWS. That was our contribution all the film 1495 01:51:23,360 --> 01:51:28,040 Speaker 2: and processing that would be done during rehearsals, during shows, 1496 01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:31,439 Speaker 2: handled the press of getting it out there to the 1497 01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:37,160 Speaker 2: magazines and newspapers, and worked on selecting what photographers would 1498 01:51:37,160 --> 01:51:43,800 Speaker 2: be shooting what during the event. When the event started, 1499 01:51:43,920 --> 01:51:50,400 Speaker 2: Bruce decided that he that he was going to join 1500 01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:56,240 Speaker 2: in and play. And so we had a meeting, he 1501 01:51:56,400 --> 01:52:00,679 Speaker 2: and I because we were broken up and Bruce had 1502 01:52:00,720 --> 01:52:05,960 Speaker 2: started dating someone, and I wanted everything to be comfortable. 1503 01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:09,320 Speaker 2: So we had a meeting and I said, when you 1504 01:52:09,520 --> 01:52:12,479 Speaker 2: get there, which was going to be like nine o'clock 1505 01:52:12,520 --> 01:52:18,799 Speaker 2: at night, eight or nine at night, maybe later, I said, 1506 01:52:19,640 --> 01:52:24,040 Speaker 2: I will be shooting front stage. I'll put Joel because 1507 01:52:24,040 --> 01:52:26,479 Speaker 2: I knew he knew him, you know, backstage with you. 1508 01:52:26,760 --> 01:52:30,080 Speaker 2: What I was going to be doing. A typical meeting, 1509 01:52:30,120 --> 01:52:33,559 Speaker 2: and that was I thought it was fine with Bruce. 1510 01:52:34,920 --> 01:52:39,320 Speaker 2: And then the evening came and there were a few things. 1511 01:52:39,479 --> 01:52:45,559 Speaker 2: One Bruce always got incredibly back in those days. He 1512 01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:56,400 Speaker 2: got incredibly nervous when playing Madison Square Garden, really nervous. Also, 1513 01:52:56,600 --> 01:53:00,719 Speaker 2: it was his thirtieth birthday and he had a whole 1514 01:53:01,080 --> 01:53:04,439 Speaker 2: thing about as many young people do, like when I 1515 01:53:04,560 --> 01:53:07,320 Speaker 2: turned thirty. So he had a thing about like his 1516 01:53:07,439 --> 01:53:14,519 Speaker 2: thirtieth birthday. So anyway, I'm in the front where I 1517 01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:18,439 Speaker 2: said I was going to be about thirteen rows back 1518 01:53:18,640 --> 01:53:28,240 Speaker 2: with the film crew, and it comes time for I 1519 01:53:28,280 --> 01:53:34,120 Speaker 2: think a quarter to three. That was the song. And 1520 01:53:34,200 --> 01:53:40,800 Speaker 2: a few things that happened that were very unlike Bruce. One, 1521 01:53:40,920 --> 01:53:45,400 Speaker 2: because it was his birthday, someone handed him a cake 1522 01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:48,920 Speaker 2: from the audience, and he took the cake and he 1523 01:53:49,080 --> 01:53:52,880 Speaker 2: threw it back at the people in the front in 1524 01:53:52,960 --> 01:53:57,479 Speaker 2: the audience. Bruce isn't like that. I thought that was 1525 01:53:57,560 --> 01:54:01,679 Speaker 2: weird because he would't want to like get cake all 1526 01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:06,960 Speaker 2: over people. And then on Promised Land he threw his 1527 01:54:07,120 --> 01:54:12,519 Speaker 2: harmonica with real kind of anger into the audience. And 1528 01:54:12,720 --> 01:54:17,400 Speaker 2: that in the early days with Bruce, I being how 1529 01:54:17,439 --> 01:54:19,920 Speaker 2: I was like with Grand Funk and everything, It's like, 1530 01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:22,000 Speaker 2: I think it would be a good idea, like to 1531 01:54:22,120 --> 01:54:26,040 Speaker 2: throw your harmonica, you know, bluh ohhh. And he got 1532 01:54:26,080 --> 01:54:29,480 Speaker 2: real mad at me and said that could hurt somebody, 1533 01:54:29,920 --> 01:54:32,520 Speaker 2: you know. I was like, oh yeah, I wasn't thinking that. 1534 01:54:32,600 --> 01:54:35,360 Speaker 2: I was just thinking of like the picture and what 1535 01:54:35,400 --> 01:54:41,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to do here, and so I think that 1536 01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:49,600 Speaker 2: when you're young, and you are you've had a very 1537 01:54:49,600 --> 01:54:57,280 Speaker 2: close relationship with someone that if you're going to freak out, 1538 01:54:57,320 --> 01:55:04,560 Speaker 2: you're going to freak out on them. And when I 1539 01:55:04,560 --> 01:55:06,880 Speaker 2: saw him do those two things that were kind of 1540 01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:10,360 Speaker 2: violent and not like him. He bent down on one 1541 01:55:10,440 --> 01:55:18,720 Speaker 2: knee and he went like this with toll yeah, curling 1542 01:55:18,800 --> 01:55:22,080 Speaker 2: his finger and the look in his eye look crazy, 1543 01:55:22,720 --> 01:55:24,960 Speaker 2: and the house lights were on. So I just grabbed 1544 01:55:25,040 --> 01:55:28,280 Speaker 2: up my camera bag and I started running down the 1545 01:55:28,360 --> 01:55:32,520 Speaker 2: aisle and Bruce jumped off the stage and chased me 1546 01:55:32,640 --> 01:55:39,120 Speaker 2: down and twisted my arm behind my back, and I 1547 01:55:39,240 --> 01:55:43,960 Speaker 2: kept saying, don't do this, don't do this, and anyway, 1548 01:55:45,600 --> 01:55:49,360 Speaker 2: he pulled me up on stage. Mind you, for a 1549 01:55:49,440 --> 01:55:53,680 Speaker 2: long time in our relationship, I did not want anyone 1550 01:55:53,760 --> 01:55:58,280 Speaker 2: to know that Bruce was my boyfriend because I want 1551 01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:03,480 Speaker 2: to be Lyn Boltsmith and I don't want Uh. I 1552 01:56:03,560 --> 01:56:06,000 Speaker 2: was I was sensitive about that. I shouldn't have been, 1553 01:56:06,120 --> 01:56:09,720 Speaker 2: because I should care less what people who I don't 1554 01:56:10,080 --> 01:56:13,760 Speaker 2: know or really care about think, unlike what the person 1555 01:56:14,440 --> 01:56:19,000 Speaker 2: you love things. And so I was incapable of being 1556 01:56:19,080 --> 01:56:27,480 Speaker 2: really supportive of Bruce when he needed it. And uh, anyway, 1557 01:56:27,600 --> 01:56:31,680 Speaker 2: he jumped off the stage, twisted my arm and threw 1558 01:56:31,760 --> 01:56:34,600 Speaker 2: me off the side of the stage. It was a 1559 01:56:34,640 --> 01:56:38,680 Speaker 2: bad moment as far as you know, I'm concerned in 1560 01:56:39,400 --> 01:56:44,480 Speaker 2: h not just for me. It was quite shocking for me, 1561 01:56:46,640 --> 01:56:52,000 Speaker 2: but I don't, you know, I kind of think that 1562 01:56:52,200 --> 01:56:58,640 Speaker 2: sometimes people who were in love or were close behave 1563 01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:07,440 Speaker 2: in ways that they wouldn't normally behave. And it's just 1564 01:57:07,520 --> 01:57:10,560 Speaker 2: really sad that this was in front of twenty thousand 1565 01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:14,360 Speaker 2: people and that it horrified me. And then the next 1566 01:57:14,440 --> 01:57:17,760 Speaker 2: day there were headlines in the paper, the New York 1567 01:57:17,800 --> 01:57:21,560 Speaker 2: Post about how I was suing Bruce. I never sued Bruce. 1568 01:57:22,800 --> 01:57:25,320 Speaker 2: All of that stuff is like people make it up, 1569 01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:28,440 Speaker 2: and people made up for years that, like I was 1570 01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:36,560 Speaker 2: blacklisted from Columbia from anyone hiring me at CBS. But 1571 01:57:36,680 --> 01:57:40,400 Speaker 2: I wasn't about to go like, hey, you know, I'm 1572 01:57:40,400 --> 01:57:42,600 Speaker 2: the one who spent which is a lot of money, 1573 01:57:43,040 --> 01:57:47,840 Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars, like on photographer's film processing, getting all 1574 01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:50,840 Speaker 2: this stuff out there, doing all this work, giving my time. 1575 01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:54,520 Speaker 2: This guy comes in at the end treats me like that, which, 1576 01:57:54,560 --> 01:57:56,920 Speaker 2: by the way, when he threw me off to the side, 1577 01:57:57,080 --> 01:57:59,960 Speaker 2: the other people who did run it like Danny Goldberg, 1578 01:58:00,280 --> 01:58:04,160 Speaker 2: they were all part of Muse Elliott Roberts. They were 1579 01:58:04,240 --> 01:58:08,600 Speaker 2: like pulling on one arm saying you can't throw her out, 1580 01:58:08,920 --> 01:58:12,920 Speaker 2: and on the other arm was like security people. And 1581 01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:16,240 Speaker 2: I'm like, I just want to go home, Okay, just 1582 01:58:16,360 --> 01:58:23,160 Speaker 2: want to go home. So it's a very unpleasant memory 1583 01:58:23,760 --> 01:58:28,000 Speaker 2: for me that many people have their own take on. 1584 01:58:28,720 --> 01:58:30,720 Speaker 2: You know, they say they were there. I've sat at 1585 01:58:30,760 --> 01:58:35,120 Speaker 2: dinner tables where people are telling the story and obviously 1586 01:58:35,160 --> 01:58:38,760 Speaker 2: they were not listening when I was introduced to them, 1587 01:58:38,920 --> 01:58:41,960 Speaker 2: and they'll say, you know, something will come up. This 1588 01:58:42,040 --> 01:58:45,040 Speaker 2: hasn't happened in many years, but back then, so I 1589 01:58:45,160 --> 01:58:47,480 Speaker 2: was there. I was sitting behind her. She jumped up 1590 01:58:47,520 --> 01:58:50,960 Speaker 2: on stage. Blah blah blah blah blah. So people are 1591 01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:54,760 Speaker 2: going to make up whatever they want. Bottom line, I 1592 01:58:54,880 --> 01:59:00,160 Speaker 2: perceive it as a moment that Bruce lost it, and 1593 01:59:00,240 --> 01:59:04,960 Speaker 2: because I'm it's the way you are kind of with 1594 01:59:05,120 --> 01:59:11,400 Speaker 2: family that nobody else should ever see, and you know, 1595 01:59:11,960 --> 01:59:16,560 Speaker 2: so it's a it's a real unpleasant memory for me 1596 01:59:16,800 --> 01:59:25,160 Speaker 2: because I feel like I'm blamed. I didn't do anything. 1597 01:59:25,960 --> 01:59:31,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, when was the next time you had contact with him? 1598 01:59:32,680 --> 01:59:34,680 Speaker 2: Actually it was I don't know if it was a 1599 01:59:34,840 --> 01:59:38,760 Speaker 2: year or two later. I didn't talk to him for 1600 01:59:38,840 --> 01:59:43,400 Speaker 2: a while, and then I was staying at the Sunset Marquis, 1601 01:59:43,880 --> 01:59:47,480 Speaker 2: and I think it was a year later. I was 1602 01:59:47,480 --> 01:59:51,800 Speaker 2: staying at the Sunset Marquis and the room above me 1603 01:59:52,720 --> 01:59:58,280 Speaker 2: was playing music really loud, right, So I called up, 1604 01:59:58,520 --> 02:00:02,560 Speaker 2: you know, one room flight up and I said, you know, 1605 02:00:02,640 --> 02:00:08,320 Speaker 2: can you lower the music? And and it was Bruce. 1606 02:00:10,080 --> 02:00:12,880 Speaker 2: So he said, you know, come on, let's meet and talk. 1607 02:00:13,840 --> 02:00:16,200 Speaker 2: And that's what we did. 1608 02:00:17,720 --> 02:00:19,960 Speaker 1: How did the relationship end. 1609 02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:22,320 Speaker 2: Nicely? 1610 02:00:22,480 --> 02:00:27,080 Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, we've all broken up. Everybody says it's mutual, 1611 02:00:27,280 --> 02:00:29,520 Speaker 1: but it's always somebody wants to break. 1612 02:00:29,280 --> 02:00:33,720 Speaker 2: It wasn't mutual. It wasn't mutual. I didn't want to 1613 02:00:33,760 --> 02:00:37,480 Speaker 2: be in the relationship anymore. And I think that's part 1614 02:00:37,480 --> 02:00:41,320 Speaker 2: of why what happened at Madison Square Garden happened. When 1615 02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:43,640 Speaker 2: he pulled me up on stage and said, I want 1616 02:00:43,640 --> 02:00:46,320 Speaker 2: you to meet my ex girlfriend, He's like announcing it, 1617 02:00:46,400 --> 02:00:48,520 Speaker 2: you know where it's like I had like tried keeping 1618 02:00:48,560 --> 02:00:58,760 Speaker 2: it secret, right, and uh, it wasn't mutual. I felt 1619 02:00:58,840 --> 02:01:08,920 Speaker 2: that Bruce really needed someone who was capable of really 1620 02:01:09,040 --> 02:01:17,240 Speaker 2: being there for him, and that wasn't me, uh you know, 1621 02:01:17,360 --> 02:01:19,920 Speaker 2: like he really wanted me in La one time. And 1622 02:01:19,960 --> 02:01:23,240 Speaker 2: it's like I've got a shoot to do with Frankie Badley, 1623 02:01:23,400 --> 02:01:26,280 Speaker 2: I'm not coming there, you know. And it's like, you 1624 02:01:26,400 --> 02:01:30,120 Speaker 2: love someone they're nervous about something, What is that so important? 1625 02:01:30,160 --> 02:01:35,680 Speaker 2: Go be there with them, support them? You know? Is 1626 02:01:35,800 --> 02:01:40,680 Speaker 2: so h It's just young love, you know. But for me, 1627 02:01:40,920 --> 02:01:45,120 Speaker 2: I was very clear in my own mind, not only 1628 02:01:45,200 --> 02:01:48,200 Speaker 2: about the career that I wanted to have and that 1629 02:01:48,280 --> 02:01:51,280 Speaker 2: I didn't want to get married and the rest of it, 1630 02:01:52,440 --> 02:02:00,760 Speaker 2: but that I I didn't I didn't if I were 1631 02:02:01,920 --> 02:02:08,400 Speaker 2: to be missus. I mean I used to that poor guy. 1632 02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:14,120 Speaker 2: I mean I remember, uh we Robert Hilbert, the critic, 1633 02:02:14,480 --> 02:02:21,600 Speaker 2: was a friend of mine, and yeah, and we were 1634 02:02:22,040 --> 02:02:24,320 Speaker 2: Bruce and I were at the movies or something, and 1635 02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:27,040 Speaker 2: you know, we'd be standing in line at the movies, 1636 02:02:27,160 --> 02:02:29,120 Speaker 2: and like I think I saw Robert and I pulled 1637 02:02:29,120 --> 02:02:32,160 Speaker 2: my hand out of Bruce's, you know, like I don't 1638 02:02:32,160 --> 02:02:35,320 Speaker 2: want to be seen holding his hand, you know. And 1639 02:02:37,720 --> 02:02:41,960 Speaker 2: then Roberts saw us. He said, oh hi, and and 1640 02:02:42,040 --> 02:02:47,440 Speaker 2: he proceeded to just look and talk to Bruce, not 1641 02:02:47,680 --> 02:02:51,680 Speaker 2: to me. Okay, And for wherever I was at at 1642 02:02:51,720 --> 02:02:55,360 Speaker 2: the time. Poor b I don't say anything. Poor Bruce. 1643 02:02:55,440 --> 02:02:57,960 Speaker 2: We get home and he's got to listen to me 1644 02:02:58,120 --> 02:03:00,960 Speaker 2: go on about I can't believe that he didn't say 1645 02:03:01,000 --> 02:03:03,720 Speaker 2: he just talks to you. They think you're so important. 1646 02:03:03,760 --> 02:03:07,600 Speaker 2: I'm smarter than you are, you know, I mean that, 1647 02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:15,800 Speaker 2: poor guy, you know, I know. So I feel really 1648 02:03:17,200 --> 02:03:22,600 Speaker 2: blessed that I had that kind of you know, very 1649 02:03:22,760 --> 02:03:31,080 Speaker 2: strong love and companion at a point in my life. 1650 02:03:31,120 --> 02:03:35,960 Speaker 2: And what I learned from it, and I always knew like, 1651 02:03:36,360 --> 02:03:38,640 Speaker 2: I don't want to be married to somebody who's on 1652 02:03:38,680 --> 02:03:42,000 Speaker 2: the road. I don't want that life. You know. It's 1653 02:03:42,360 --> 02:03:44,880 Speaker 2: one of the reasons I didn't continue on with will 1654 02:03:44,960 --> 02:03:49,240 Speaker 2: Powers when will Powers had success. I don't really want 1655 02:03:49,280 --> 02:03:51,400 Speaker 2: to do that. I don't want to spend my time, 1656 02:03:52,160 --> 02:03:57,520 Speaker 2: you know, backstage and all of that. It just it 1657 02:03:57,600 --> 02:03:59,240 Speaker 2: seems like a waste of a life. 1658 02:04:00,240 --> 02:04:01,600 Speaker 1: How long were you with Bruce? 1659 02:04:01,640 --> 02:04:07,000 Speaker 2: Alltold, I don't talk about it or count it. It 1660 02:04:07,160 --> 02:04:09,400 Speaker 2: wasn't really that long when you look at the length 1661 02:04:09,440 --> 02:04:10,920 Speaker 2: of our lives. 1662 02:04:11,720 --> 02:04:16,640 Speaker 1: Okay, so I know enough very successful people they always say, 1663 02:04:16,800 --> 02:04:20,640 Speaker 1: oh I was lucky, etc. But they have to be 1664 02:04:20,760 --> 02:04:24,480 Speaker 1: incredibly driven and there has to be something about their personality. 1665 02:04:24,720 --> 02:04:28,280 Speaker 1: We've established that you're driven, But are you the type 1666 02:04:28,280 --> 02:04:32,080 Speaker 1: of person who was a great networker or was it 1667 02:04:32,160 --> 02:04:35,440 Speaker 1: like with Frank Zappa, whenever you saw an opportunity, you 1668 02:04:35,600 --> 02:04:38,080 Speaker 1: had the guts to go ask someone to do something. 1669 02:04:38,520 --> 02:04:40,440 Speaker 1: What was what made you so succesul? 1670 02:04:40,480 --> 02:04:43,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't think I was a networker, you know, 1671 02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:48,520 Speaker 2: that's not my thing. I think that I get an 1672 02:04:48,560 --> 02:04:51,680 Speaker 2: idea I want to work with somebody or I want 1673 02:04:51,760 --> 02:04:54,680 Speaker 2: to do something, and then I try to make it happen. 1674 02:04:56,160 --> 02:04:58,320 Speaker 1: And to what lengths will you go to make it happen. 1675 02:05:01,040 --> 02:05:03,840 Speaker 2: I'll put it out there and if it comes back, 1676 02:05:04,320 --> 02:05:08,640 Speaker 2: that's great, and if it doesn't, that's fine because there's 1677 02:05:08,680 --> 02:05:12,760 Speaker 2: always something else. It's not like that's the only thing 1678 02:05:12,840 --> 02:05:18,040 Speaker 2: out there, you know. That's how I feel about it. Yeah, 1679 02:05:18,960 --> 02:05:27,040 Speaker 2: otherwise you you'd keep on pushing, you know, and I 1680 02:05:27,080 --> 02:05:30,080 Speaker 2: haven't really had to do that. 1681 02:05:33,120 --> 02:05:36,040 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, then I think we've covered it. 1682 02:05:36,480 --> 02:05:37,240 Speaker 2: Okay. 1683 02:05:37,920 --> 02:05:39,360 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's a lot more we can 1684 02:05:39,400 --> 02:05:41,840 Speaker 1: go into, but I think we hit the surface, went 1685 02:05:41,960 --> 02:05:44,840 Speaker 1: down a little bit deeper. So I want to thank 1686 02:05:44,880 --> 02:05:48,880 Speaker 1: you for taking the time with my audience of course. 1687 02:05:48,600 --> 02:05:52,320 Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that you that Eric put us together 1688 02:05:53,160 --> 02:05:56,160 Speaker 2: and that you took so much time too. 1689 02:05:57,520 --> 02:06:00,600 Speaker 1: That's Eric Brazilian, well known for right eating one of 1690 02:06:00,680 --> 02:06:03,160 Speaker 1: us and being a member of the Hooters, who connected 1691 02:06:03,200 --> 02:06:06,760 Speaker 1: me and Lynn and any event. Thanks so much, Lynn, 1692 02:06:07,160 --> 02:06:09,960 Speaker 1: till next time. This is Bob left sex