Speaker 1: I'm Eric Alexander, and I'm whitneyed out. Welcome to Reparations,
Speaker 1: The Big Payback, a production of Color Farm Media, I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and The Black Effect podcast Network. I like
Speaker 1: that poem indictious and it talks about being bloody, but
Speaker 1: I'm bowed and that from the minute I read that
Speaker 1: poem in elementary school, I made that my creed. I
Speaker 1: may be bloody, but every time you knocked me down,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be like that punch clown. I gotta get up.
Speaker 1: I felt that, and maybe I felt that because I
Speaker 1: was this orphan and sometimes I knew I had to
Speaker 1: keep my head down. But all of those lessons I
Speaker 1: tried to teach my kids, not so much about sitting
Speaker 1: down talking to y'all, but letting you see me live
Speaker 1: through that. And I think that I got a pretty
Speaker 1: strong group of kids that expected that dude had certain
Speaker 1: expectations of them. Is that your mom? Now I know
Speaker 1: where you get such self confidence? Yeah? Yeah, that's Sammy
Speaker 1: Jean Amy Holman Alexander, and I am her daughter, and
Speaker 1: she is my north star. She has three last names
Speaker 1: because she's had a lot of lives, not because she's
Speaker 1: Liz Taylor Kim Kardashian. She's like a cat, and I
Speaker 1: think she's on her seventh right now. That's a lot
Speaker 1: of lives and a lot of names. Did she also
Speaker 1: give you the Great at the end of yours? No,
Speaker 1: but she was fought a teacher that wanted me to
Speaker 1: take it off my papers. I used to sign all
Speaker 1: my papers and class with Eric Alexander the Great. Now
Speaker 1: she likes all that, But Whitney, when we started this
Speaker 1: rock in Reparations Adventure, we said that we would talk
Speaker 1: more about our origin story. So I decided to talk
Speaker 1: to my mother. And she's like a walkman. You can
Speaker 1: push play and she's off to the races. She's a
Speaker 1: real grio and she remembers everything but her origin story.
Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome. She's one of eleven. I think I've
Speaker 1: told you a little bit of about her. She was
Speaker 1: her mother's last child. She was born in Karneck, Texas.
Speaker 1: That's where Lady Burt Johnson is from. She was raised
Speaker 1: in Carl's Bad, New Mexico. She was orphaned twice, first
Speaker 1: by her mother and father when she was young, and
Speaker 1: then when she was adopted. Her adopted mother passed away
Speaker 1: when she was a teenager, and she basically was sent
Speaker 1: out of the house and had to hit the road
Speaker 1: with my father. They we both were traveling evangelists and
Speaker 1: he was itinerant. She married him, my preacher father, who
Speaker 1: was also an orphan. They had six kids. I am
Speaker 1: one of them. You're welcome, America. And though she was
Speaker 1: widowed a forty nine, she earned a master's degree in
Speaker 1: early childhood education and she started to write children's books. Yeah. Oh,
Speaker 1: and here are hobbies. She likes Macromay, tea cakes and
Speaker 1: Dr Pimple Papa. Yeah. But you know, I was talking
Speaker 1: to my mom about our reparations journey and the Privileged game,
Speaker 1: the game that we did when we were in front
Speaker 1: of Grant's tomb and we would ask each other's questions,
Speaker 1: and you know, you go forward and then I would
Speaker 1: end up stain back, and you know, you're halfway up
Speaker 1: the block because you're white and male and privileged and
Speaker 1: all the other good stuff you get from being in
Speaker 1: the Book of Doo. But anyway, I asked her, what
Speaker 1: were her thoughts about white privilege and or just privilege
Speaker 1: in general. Well, I'm certain that there is white privilege
Speaker 1: anytime one group can make laws and enact them to
Speaker 1: benefit themselves, whether they're white or whatever their color. If
Speaker 1: they can benefit them to themselves and use them to
Speaker 1: deny other people their equality, then of course that's privilege.
Speaker 1: And in America that happens to be primarily wide privilege,
Speaker 1: white privilege. That's really America's origin story, right. And what
Speaker 1: it's so interesting listening to your mom talk about this
Speaker 1: is that the idea of white privilege means something very
Speaker 1: different in two thousand twenty one than it did when
Speaker 1: she was a child. And back then, I think white
Speaker 1: privilege was just white people doing their thing. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: were doing a thing and they still are doing their thing. Well. Anyway,
Speaker 1: my mother starts reminisce and she's talking about her life,
Speaker 1: how she grew up. Even told me stories about my
Speaker 1: life as a child. It was pretty cool. Yeah, our
Speaker 1: origin stories, the ones that our family tells us about ourselves,
Speaker 1: about our family, our history. They're so important because they
Speaker 1: kind of help us think about how we're going to
Speaker 1: chart our way through the world, that we're sort of
Speaker 1: carrying the story with us as we go. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: nature versus nurture. Think of America as this big oak
Speaker 1: tree with these deep roots and we fit it, and
Speaker 1: we're pretty fertilizer and watering it. But you know, we
Speaker 1: are judged by the fruit it bears, you know. And
Speaker 1: so I think, now we're getting a load of types
Speaker 1: of juicy stuff that's fallen off of it. But you're
Speaker 1: what I'm thinking, I've had a lot of fun, Whitney,
Speaker 1: It's now time to get down to the nitty gritty
Speaker 1: and talk about how to make reparations. That's epic stuff.
Speaker 1: We're dealing with, high stakes, So we need to anchor
Speaker 1: ourselves to an African American voice talking about just living
Speaker 1: their experience. So I choose my mom that see the
Speaker 1: world through Sammy's eyes. She can stand in for the community.
Speaker 1: Like after Schindler's List, one of my favorite movies, Spielberg
Speaker 1: created a committee to take down the stories of the
Speaker 1: survivors of the Holocaust. So she'll tell her story whatever
Speaker 1: she wants and we get to know her and then
Speaker 1: build out from there. And my mom's a rock, she
Speaker 1: can take it. Meanwhile, we'll check in with Dr. William
Speaker 1: Daherty and former presidential candidate and billionaire Tom Steyer and
Speaker 1: Mayor Karen Weaver of Flint, Michigan. Yeah, that's good. We'll
Speaker 1: talk with them and find out how to make reparations.
Speaker 1: What do you say, Whitney, I think it's a good plan.
Speaker 1: We You know, we've spoken to economist William Daherty before
Speaker 1: and he has a lot of interesting things to say
Speaker 1: about reparations. But all three of those people have been
Speaker 1: really at the war front of the thought process around this.
Speaker 1: But the thing I like best about this plan, Erica,
Speaker 1: is I think everybody would benefit from just spending a
Speaker 1: little time seeing the world through your mom Sammy's eyes.
Speaker 1: When you're a little kid and you're walking down the street,
Speaker 1: are on a bus, and somebody comes up to you
Speaker 1: but no reason at all, look you in the face
Speaker 1: of white person and says, you know, that little girl
Speaker 1: would be cute if he wasn't so bad. I mean,
Speaker 1: why why would you address her child in that way?
Speaker 1: It's nothing, It added nothing to me, It wasn't making
Speaker 1: me feel better. Why would you go out of your
Speaker 1: way to insult someone in such that way? Did that
Speaker 1: happen to your mom? Yes, plenty of times. Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: What can happen to you when you're just living I
Speaker 1: can't even comprehend a story like that. Erica. I think
Speaker 1: about what's in people's hearts and how they live in
Speaker 1: the world, and I'm trying to imagine understand what's happening
Speaker 1: inside someone that they would feel they could say that
Speaker 1: to a young child. You know. I think about a lot, Erica,
Speaker 1: about this idea of what makes people empathetic and what
Speaker 1: makes people hard. And you know, I did a lot
Speaker 1: of interviews for the Whiteness Project, and I really couldn't
Speaker 1: find a correlation. The only correlation I could find that
Speaker 1: it wasn't about money, it wasn't about privation, It wasn't
Speaker 1: not anything that I thought, Oh, someone was raised this,
Speaker 1: they would have this experience. It was really about true
Speaker 1: self reflection and the people could actually reflect on their
Speaker 1: experience in the world were people that could actually be empathetic. So,
Speaker 1: you know, someone who I think about a lot in
Speaker 1: this way, somebody we've talked to, Tom Steyer, who made
Speaker 1: billions of dollars, has pledged to give it all away
Speaker 1: and ultimately sold out of his hedge fund, became a philanthropist,
Speaker 1: and even ran for president recently. I wonder if he
Speaker 1: has enough money to remake the minds of that type
Speaker 1: of human that's a lot of money Erica, but we're
Speaker 1: going to have to be you know, making reparations means
Speaker 1: we have to remake our minds. Cat Taylor and I
Speaker 1: started a bank fifteen years ago harshly to redress the
Speaker 1: systemic racism in the financial system and the banking system
Speaker 1: in the United States that specifically addressed economic justice, environmental sustainability,
Speaker 1: and supported businesses owned by women and people of color
Speaker 1: because there was systemic attempt to shut those people out
Speaker 1: of ownership of wealth in this country. And that's what
Speaker 1: redlining was. Don't lend to black people. It's against the
Speaker 1: rules of our bank to lend to blank people. So
Speaker 1: we're gonna draw a red line around African American neighborhoods
Speaker 1: and you can't lend in there, which shut black people
Speaker 1: out of home ownership, which is the basic wealth creation
Speaker 1: historically for American citizens. If you talk to my African
Speaker 1: American friends who are business people, have a much harder
Speaker 1: time getting business loans, which means you're shut out of
Speaker 1: the private sector's wealth creation of being an entrepreneur and
Speaker 1: building a businesship in terms of ownership. And so we
Speaker 1: started a bank from scratch fifteen years ago. It's now
Speaker 1: over a billion dollars in assets, and it's basically we
Speaker 1: measure every loan not just on whether it's profitable, because
Speaker 1: we need to be profitable so we can continue in business,
Speaker 1: but also what is the impact on the community in
Speaker 1: terms of job creations, in terms of who owns the bank,
Speaker 1: in terms of sequestrian carbon And if you can't do that,
Speaker 1: then that's not alone for us. And we want to
Speaker 1: prove that you can do that and be profitable. That
Speaker 1: actions have to be taken not just to be fair
Speaker 1: within the bank, but to redress the long time deep
Speaker 1: racism of the banking system and actually be you know,
Speaker 1: not trying to be fair, but to be specifically pointing
Speaker 1: out the people who have been discriminated against and trying
Speaker 1: to give them the opportunit and these that have been
Speaker 1: systemically taken away from them. So say, there's more of
Speaker 1: these types of institutions that pop up, and there's a
Speaker 1: different way to sort of assess people's credit worthiness and
Speaker 1: they're not judged by that, Like come in and say
Speaker 1: I'm black, Can I get Alan? And they said, yes,
Speaker 1: you qualify. You know, you know, that's what people are
Speaker 1: kind of wanting because they're saying, Look, I spent my
Speaker 1: life being beat up by all these things that are
Speaker 1: coming at me. I have no way to sort of
Speaker 1: convince people that I'm a good bet. Is my black
Speaker 1: skin enough to say, y'all owe me a shot? What's
Speaker 1: the shot looked like? Some people say, look, just write
Speaker 1: me a check. First, write me a check. Do you
Speaker 1: think that's part of it? Obviously in education, mental health,
Speaker 1: those types of things, you say, housing stability, can people
Speaker 1: also just get a check? This is the point of
Speaker 1: the study, Erica, because I recognize every single one of
Speaker 1: the areas that you're looking at, and I know that
Speaker 1: they're all subject to possible solution, so that you know
Speaker 1: you are talking about education. I mean, one of the
Speaker 1: things I pushed for when I was running for president
Speaker 1: was a huge increase in the money devoted to historically
Speaker 1: black colleges and universities because I felt as if here
Speaker 1: is a very specific and successful lifeline to people who've
Speaker 1: been discriminated against, that's being relatively starved for public money,
Speaker 1: and yet has succeeded in producing, you know, way disproportionate
Speaker 1: numbers of successful professional African Americans across the country. And
Speaker 1: I said, it's a system that works. It's a system
Speaker 1: that exists, why don't we make it a lot better
Speaker 1: funded and a lot bigger to give people an equal
Speaker 1: opportunity to see how far they can go. And in general,
Speaker 1: when you talk about a systemic change in society, and
Speaker 1: particularly one that's centered around values and justice, the appropriate
Speaker 1: place for that is the government, the human embodiments of
Speaker 1: the will of the people. This is not something that
Speaker 1: I think should be voluntary. It's not something that I
Speaker 1: think we're hoping people will do because we're hoping, you know,
Speaker 1: that they'll acknowledge this individually. This is something that has
Speaker 1: to be organized through the government. There's no doubt about
Speaker 1: that in my mind. So when I think about how
Speaker 1: this is going to be actually enacted, both studied, decisions made,
Speaker 1: and then carried out, I believe that has to be
Speaker 1: in effect the will of the people. People who have
Speaker 1: gotten that impromatur of saying you have a right to
Speaker 1: do this, you represent the will of your constituents, and
Speaker 1: therefore that's how it's gonna happen. First of all, I
Speaker 1: don't think it will happen otherwise. The second, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's appropriate for it to happen otherwise. I think
Speaker 1: that is what a democracy looks like. That is what
Speaker 1: this democracy is supposed to look like. And if this
Speaker 1: is going to happen, that's the only way I believe
Speaker 1: that it has the authority and the clear intent that
Speaker 1: it speaks for everybody. You know, when there's a chance
Speaker 1: to stand up for what's right, that a chance. The
Speaker 1: whole point is to be trying to push for justice,
Speaker 1: to try and push for the values you believe in.
Speaker 1: That's a great opportunity in life, I think, And that's
Speaker 1: how I see this, just trying to think in the
Speaker 1: context of this conversation anything we didn't touch on that
Speaker 1: you think that white Americans should hear, or know or
Speaker 1: ask themselves in order to understand, you know, this issue.
Speaker 1: You know what I would really ask somebody on a
Speaker 1: personal level, another white American. I would say, look, we
Speaker 1: need to retell the story of America. Have you ever
Speaker 1: put yourself in the context of being somebody from another race?
Speaker 1: And if you think about slavery in America and you
Speaker 1: think about the long time before when white people were
Speaker 1: debating it in Congress and in the White House and
Speaker 1: in elections, it would be a completely different conversation. If
Speaker 1: the people who are having that conversation were themselves enslaved,
Speaker 1: if their children were enslaved, if their families, We're going
Speaker 1: to have something horrible happen that day. That's what I
Speaker 1: would ask quite Americans to do. If that's you, not
Speaker 1: somebody else you see is different from you, but you,
Speaker 1: in the most profound senses an American. Now, can we
Speaker 1: start talking about what we're going to do going forward? Now?
Speaker 1: Can we start talking about this history. That's the emotional
Speaker 1: courage we need as white people to be part of
Speaker 1: the solution here instead of clinging to something that you
Speaker 1: know clearly has been based in injustice and wronged them.
Speaker 1: I gotta ask the os question for all my friends
Speaker 1: and people who would expect me to ask, when you
Speaker 1: get there? When you pull and when you when I say,
Speaker 1: they're like, you've made enough money to live your life
Speaker 1: and finally get there. People think all sorts of magic
Speaker 1: happens to you that you pull back behind the curtain
Speaker 1: and subtenly things happen. Is that what it feels like?
Speaker 1: Do you feel more empower? Here's what I would say, Erica.
Speaker 1: So when I was twenty six years old, I go
Speaker 1: to see my grandmother who's kind of a tough old
Speaker 1: lady to be honest. And when it was over, I
Speaker 1: said to her, you know, do you have any advice
Speaker 1: for me? And I'm thinking she's gonna say, it's all
Speaker 1: about family, it's all about love, and she goes, money
Speaker 1: is more important than you think, Tom, And I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, really that's what you've got for me,
Speaker 1: money's And she said, there's not a lot of difference
Speaker 1: between being comfortably off and being rich, but there's a
Speaker 1: gigantic difference, Tom, between being poor and being comfortably off.
Speaker 1: And she said, I've been all three. I know what
Speaker 1: it is to be poor. I know what it is
Speaker 1: to have to figure out how to cobble together bus
Speaker 1: fair to get across town. So and answer your question, Erk,
Speaker 1: I think there is a huge difference between being comfortably
Speaker 1: off and feeling safe about health care and rent and
Speaker 1: food and education, you know, the basics for a family,
Speaker 1: and having to worry about every single one of those
Speaker 1: on a day, constant grind about how are you going
Speaker 1: to deal with us? But I don't think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of difference between being comfortably off and being rich.
Speaker 1: I really don't you know, Erica We talk a lot
Speaker 1: about white allies on what they can do, and I
Speaker 1: think one of the most interesting things that Tom touches
Speaker 1: on is actually thinking about what it would mean if
Speaker 1: we could see the world through black eyes, or we
Speaker 1: could actually experience that that the policies that we have
Speaker 1: would fundamentally be changed if the paradigm was different, and
Speaker 1: if white people could truly see what was like to
Speaker 1: live in the world as Black Americans. The policies that
Speaker 1: we have just they simply wouldn't exist. No, they wouldn't.
Speaker 1: They wouldn't, but it wouldn't be interesting is if they
Speaker 1: could see what it's like to live in the world
Speaker 1: in their white existence. I guess because I keep thinking
Speaker 1: it can't be that pleasurable if the community is fixated
Speaker 1: on oppression of people with darker skin and larger noses
Speaker 1: and bigger lips and wooly hair. Um, imagine if somebody
Speaker 1: could step out of themselves and say, are we really
Speaker 1: just focusing on that? Am I going to spend my
Speaker 1: day in my time pushing against that? That's that's nuts.
Speaker 1: But you know, I like Tom Styre a lot, and
Speaker 1: I really appreciate him because I think he's proved positive
Speaker 1: that biology is not always destiny. I know Freud wrote
Speaker 1: that about women, but he's going against Once you get
Speaker 1: to have a certain amount of money, you're supposed to
Speaker 1: be a certain way, you know, gain more money and
Speaker 1: build buildings and put my name on it. But no,
Speaker 1: he's not doing that. And part of the reason why
Speaker 1: people come here is because they believe in the American dream.
Speaker 1: You're supposed to be able to achieve your dreams, and
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be a level playing field. But we
Speaker 1: all know the dream machine is rigged, and it certainly
Speaker 1: has a bias for vanilla covered and testosterone, so you
Speaker 1: know it's tough, but he's making it more chocolatey. Bless him.
Speaker 1: Speaking of rigged system, my mother told me a story
Speaker 1: about when I was a child in fourth grade, how
Speaker 1: she had to go to my school to confront a
Speaker 1: teacher who had changed my grades to a lower grade
Speaker 1: because he wanted to advance a white child instead of me,
Speaker 1: and she confronted him, I have to start the year
Speaker 1: before you has had a teacher I think of his
Speaker 1: third grade. She and I had gone to the same church.
Speaker 1: She was white and we had going to the same church,
Speaker 1: and she was just in awe of you all the time.
Speaker 1: She was telling me, Erica did this in school or whatever.
Speaker 1: And I would go to your teacher's meeting. I had
Speaker 1: seen all of your reports, your grades and all, and
Speaker 1: you were in her gifted group. And the next year
Speaker 1: she moved away. You moved to the next grade. And
Speaker 1: this teacher was actually Hispanic, but at that time, most
Speaker 1: of the time when people wrote what race you are,
Speaker 1: if they were Hispanic, they usually wrote his wife. His
Speaker 1: name is Mr Vega. Yes, But anyway, you were in Mr.
Speaker 1: Baker's room. And when it came time for a teacher
Speaker 1: parent conference, I went and here were all of the
Speaker 1: grades that I had seen with your former teacher, which
Speaker 1: had had been written in ink. He had recorded your
Speaker 1: grade like you had made, say nine seven on a
Speaker 1: particular test, the math part of whatever party in the
Speaker 1: area of the focus of the test was written and
Speaker 1: the grade beside it well on his recording. This is
Speaker 1: a record that's gonna follow you through elementary school. So
Speaker 1: each year is recorded on the same tests for those
Speaker 1: same areas, and your last year grade now have been
Speaker 1: marked out with just a line across the grade, and
Speaker 1: then there's something pencil then that's last and he's telling
Speaker 1: me that he is going to send you to the
Speaker 1: group mentally agecable and I said, what, why, what are
Speaker 1: you doing? I also knew the teacher there because I
Speaker 1: did work back and forth in the school and was
Speaker 1: very well known in that school. And uh, also never
Speaker 1: missed a parent conference, so I had known the teacher
Speaker 1: who taught that group. And I said, well, why would
Speaker 1: you be sending Erica there? And he said, well, look
Speaker 1: at her test goods and I said, those are not
Speaker 1: Erica's tech courts. And by the way, you do know
Speaker 1: that her teacher last year and I had a very
Speaker 1: close relationship. So anyway, we established all of that, and
Speaker 1: I asked him, why are these grades change here? I
Speaker 1: saw this original grade. I've never missed the parent teacher meeting,
Speaker 1: and I know that Erica was in the gifted class.
Speaker 1: So how now she hasn't had a brain injury or
Speaker 1: nothing has happened that has changed her situation. Why are
Speaker 1: you trying to convince me that she needs to go
Speaker 1: to the mentally ethecable group. That's not my child. And uh,
Speaker 1: of course he and I got into some pretty heated
Speaker 1: thing here, and I ended up telling him that I
Speaker 1: would give him a month to straighten that out, and
Speaker 1: not said, then I'm going to the board of education,
Speaker 1: and I want to understand, I said, by way, you
Speaker 1: do know that I have teacher training, and I know
Speaker 1: what the games are. I know how teachers can manipulate
Speaker 1: children's situations by changing grades so that they can advance
Speaker 1: one child over another child old and a child who
Speaker 1: was showing last year gifted. You're gonna tell me, with
Speaker 1: no outside or external interventions or anything, that this child
Speaker 1: now is going to be somebody that needs special help,
Speaker 1: special ad And you can't explain to me why you
Speaker 1: remember that you had me come in. I was outside
Speaker 1: and he made him apologize to me. You and Dad, well,
Speaker 1: you know he needed to apologize to you. And he's
Speaker 1: telling me all the things about, oh, how he liked
Speaker 1: you and you were a likable kid, and he didn't
Speaker 1: know why. You know, you should be very happy because
Speaker 1: everybody like you. But I said, well, maybe she doesn't
Speaker 1: like you, and I don't like you, and it's not
Speaker 1: about who's liking what. You are trying to hinder my
Speaker 1: child and you're gonna affect her education for the rest
Speaker 1: of her life. Oh that was a close call. Did
Speaker 1: you hear that, Whitney. My life was nearly derailed because
Speaker 1: my teacher, my favorite teacher, decided I was disposable. I
Speaker 1: was the only black student in his class, we were
Speaker 1: the only black family in the school, and if my
Speaker 1: mother hadn't caught it, it would have changed everything for me.
Speaker 1: I think about what all the women Robert Ruth Simmons
Speaker 1: is doing in Evanston, Illinois, and they're making reparations right now,
Speaker 1: But I know that question and a lot of that
Speaker 1: energy needs to be put into what are they doing
Speaker 1: around education inside of that type of subject. Well, I
Speaker 1: know what is more distressing about that story for me
Speaker 1: Erica the idea that this teacher would change your graves
Speaker 1: to advance in other students or the fact that he
Speaker 1: was your favorite teacher. That's really heartbreaking. When we talked
Speaker 1: about what exactly reparations are, it is about reimagining and
Speaker 1: rebuilding systems. And yeah, and Evans Illinois, not only are
Speaker 1: they paying reparations to some of their black residents, they're
Speaker 1: also trying to reimagine the school system. And I think,
Speaker 1: like a lot of places around the country, they're looking
Speaker 1: at tracking and testing and I think they're they're completely
Speaker 1: eliminating tracking and a p classes because they see so
Speaker 1: many of the times that it leaves black students behind
Speaker 1: while at the same time advancing white students. So I
Speaker 1: think when you talk about how do you make reparations,
Speaker 1: you have to have an imagination that sort of probes
Speaker 1: into every part of our society. And someone who's thought
Speaker 1: a lot about this, actually, how do you functionally create reparations?
Speaker 1: What are the things that go into do it? Is
Speaker 1: economist William Darety. I think about the ways in which
Speaker 1: reparations might impact the American community at large, which obviously
Speaker 1: includes Americans who are black and white Americans who are
Speaker 1: of other ethnic and racial backgrounds. And I think if
Speaker 1: America is going to actually fulfill its ambition as being
Speaker 1: a truly democratic society that is open to providing every
Speaker 1: one of its citizens with the capacity to fully participate
Speaker 1: in national life and social life and to make their
Speaker 1: deepest contributions to the entire American community, that that's going
Speaker 1: to require a dramatic and bowl step like a reparations
Speaker 1: project for black American descendants of US slavery. Otherwise the
Speaker 1: nation as a whole will continue to lose a well
Speaker 1: spring of talent that remains untapped and in many cases repressed.
Speaker 1: You know, from the standpoint of the reparations plan that
Speaker 1: we describe and from here to equality, we're not thinking
Speaker 1: that any individual white person owes a debt to the
Speaker 1: black community. We are thinking that the United States government
Speaker 1: is the culpable party. It's the culpable party because it
Speaker 1: is the United States government that established the laws and
Speaker 1: the authority framework that permitted all of these atrocities to
Speaker 1: take place, and in many instances, sanctioned the atrocities. And
Speaker 1: it's the federal government that permitted slavery to be something
Speaker 1: that was treated as a legal practice in the United States.
Speaker 1: It's the federal government that's responsible for the legal framework
Speaker 1: that produced nearly a century of legal segregation in the
Speaker 1: United States. So what I would hope would be the
Speaker 1: responsibility that would be borne by white Americans is to
Speaker 1: take a political position that is in favor of a
Speaker 1: reparations plan. But the financing and the execution of the
Speaker 1: reparations plan has to be something that's conducted by the
Speaker 1: federal government because it's the federal government that bears the responsibility. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: how could the government pay this I'm an advocate of
Speaker 1: a number of social programs that are somewhat dramatic, including
Speaker 1: proposal like baby bonds, which is to provide an endowment
Speaker 1: for each newborn infant, every newborn infant in the United
Speaker 1: States that is calibrated on the basis of their family's wealth.
Speaker 1: But programs that are universal or should reach all Americans
Speaker 1: will not accomplish the goal of eliminating the racial wealth differential.
Speaker 1: And that's the task of a reparations project that should
Speaker 1: be done by making direct payments to all of the
Speaker 1: eligible recipients, in the same way in which reparations plans
Speaker 1: in the past have made direct payments to eligible recipients.
Speaker 1: A couple of major examples that come to mind are
Speaker 1: the German governments payments that were made to the victims
Speaker 1: of the Holocaust. Another example closer to home is the
Speaker 1: Civil Liberties Act that provided payments to the Japanese Americans
Speaker 1: who were unjustly incarcerated during the course of World War Two.
Speaker 1: They were subjected to a form of mass incarceration. There
Speaker 1: are other instances where reparations have been given and not
Speaker 1: necessarily when the donor is responsible for the harm. So
Speaker 1: in the US context, the United States government made payments
Speaker 1: to the families that lost loved ones during the course
Speaker 1: of the nine one one terrorist attacks, and those were
Speaker 1: again direct payments, So I think there should be nothing
Speaker 1: different about the way in which it's done for Black Americans.
Speaker 1: If the issue is how is it financed, then I
Speaker 1: would argue that it will be financed, or it should
Speaker 1: be financed in much the same way that overnight the
Speaker 1: federal government came up with huge sums of money to
Speaker 1: try to address the coronavirus crisis, But there has been
Speaker 1: no increase in taxes, so the federal government can fund
Speaker 1: virtually anything it wants. I think we've been consistent in
Speaker 1: saying that the only significant barrier to additional federal spending
Speaker 1: is the possibility of triggering inflation. So you would have
Speaker 1: to design any new expenditure program in such a way
Speaker 1: that you're conscious of that, and that you structure it
Speaker 1: so that it minimizes the possibility of triggering high rates
Speaker 1: of inflation of prices in the US econy. You know, Erica,
Speaker 1: I find Derity really fascinating because of his specificity. He
Speaker 1: has such clear ideas. Whether you agree with him or not,
Speaker 1: he has really clear ideas about who should get preparations
Speaker 1: and how they should be structured, what they should be.
Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of times this makes think
Speaker 1: I've said this to you before, but it makes me relieved.
Speaker 1: I'm white, Like I have the simple job that's advocating
Speaker 1: for preparations. The actually how you do it? What are
Speaker 1: the mechanics for it? You know, I'm lucky that I
Speaker 1: believe that white people shouldn't have a say in that.
Speaker 1: So that's on you. You're gonna have to figure that out. Well,
Speaker 1: you guys got a big job, because you know, we
Speaker 1: need more white people to help make this happen. But
Speaker 1: you know, Whitney, as I was talking to my mother,
Speaker 1: I realized that I'm not experiencing her fresh out of
Speaker 1: the oven. You know, she's a little hardened. She's gone
Speaker 1: through a lot, and her answers reflect that once again.
Speaker 1: I you know, not only can I do I often
Speaker 1: say like, I can't possibly pretend that I could imagine
Speaker 1: what it's like to live in the United States as
Speaker 1: a black American. I can't possibly, I really can't possibly
Speaker 1: imagine what it was like to live as a black
Speaker 1: American eighty years ago. Oh No, And she is eighty
Speaker 1: years old, and so she's absorbed a lot of disappointments
Speaker 1: and challenges in her life, more than most people I know.
Speaker 1: Miss Sammy is battle tested, you know, her remedy, her
Speaker 1: default setting is Lord, give me the straight I mean,
Speaker 1: we talked about that, but I see why they needed
Speaker 1: the strength. And it takes a while to get through
Speaker 1: that buffalo stance. You know. She's real sweetie, but she's
Speaker 1: very tough, and when it comes to herself, she doesn't
Speaker 1: know the difference between ouch and pain. She just keeps moving.
Speaker 1: She experiences disadvantages and challenges so often it becomes de rigour,
Speaker 1: you know, playing for the worst full stop. And it's
Speaker 1: like she knows if you walk with a pebble in
Speaker 1: your shoe long enough, it'll burrow into your heel, settle in,
Speaker 1: and become part of your soul. She has no memory
Speaker 1: of when that pain fused with her normal senses. She
Speaker 1: just accepts the pain in her heel as payment due
Speaker 1: for walking. And that's black people. So many black people
Speaker 1: every day because of their race, that's what they go through.
Speaker 1: And it's deceptive because it's disguised as plain o ordinary
Speaker 1: American life and repackaged as the American dream, like you're here,
Speaker 1: you're part of the American dream, and it's supposed to
Speaker 1: feel that way, but it's painful. One example Erica is
Speaker 1: the people in Flint, Michigan. You know, their American dream
Speaker 1: turned to an American nightmare when the politicians in Flint,
Speaker 1: during a budget crisis, decided to get the water supply
Speaker 1: that was coming from Michigan. They shifted over to the
Speaker 1: Flint River and that literally poisoned the majority black community
Speaker 1: in Flint. Mayor Karen Weaver was leadership during that period
Speaker 1: and it became her job to make sure that both
Speaker 1: the state of Michigan and the federal government made things right.
Speaker 1: I remember saying, if there's not a check for Flint,
Speaker 1: I won't be there because I'm trying to get what
Speaker 1: you know, and everybody else knows we deserve. And it
Speaker 1: was so amazing to me because this was something that
Speaker 1: wasn't just documented in Flint or the state of Michigan.
Speaker 1: This was documented across the country and the world what
Speaker 1: had gone on. And so I've got to try and
Speaker 1: you know, continue to speak up and speak out for Flint.
Speaker 1: Right now, you have to say you were either going
Speaker 1: to accept the settlement as is, you're satisfied with it
Speaker 1: the way it is, or you could say I want
Speaker 1: to be part of the settlement, but I'm objecting, or
Speaker 1: I want no parts of anything. So I opted in.
Speaker 1: I said, I want to be part of this settlement,
Speaker 1: but I want to object. And that's one of the
Speaker 1: objections is the attorneys getting more than the victims. The
Speaker 1: most that a victim will get as if they lost
Speaker 1: a loved one to legionneers, if they were forty nine
Speaker 1: and younger, they'll get one point five million. Fifty and older,
Speaker 1: the amount you get goes down to three hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: So they've put a value on people's lives. And they
Speaker 1: put a cap on property damage of a thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: which is absurd. Which is absurd. I mean people's water
Speaker 1: heaters were damaged, uh, dishwashers, refrigerators, a thousand dollar cap.
Speaker 1: What can you do with that? Not much? It is
Speaker 1: absolutely absurd. That's another objection. One of the other objections
Speaker 1: is the documentation. There is so much documentation you have
Speaker 1: to have. You know, the more documentation you have, I guess,
Speaker 1: the more money you get. However, a lot of the
Speaker 1: testing that needed to be done wasn't even available, not
Speaker 1: only in Flint, but the state of Michigan. They've just
Speaker 1: started getting the access to the testing available to us
Speaker 1: within the last month. So people have to opt in
Speaker 1: and object. So there is a fairness hearing that is
Speaker 1: in July, and we go before the judge who will
Speaker 1: hear the objections. The judge has says she will listen
Speaker 1: to you know, however long it takes to hear the
Speaker 1: objections of the people. So we had to have everything
Speaker 1: in by last Monday, and now we wait. You know,
Speaker 1: one of the things we've always said is what happened,
Speaker 1: and Flint happened as a result of race and class.
Speaker 1: And I've always told people Flint wasn't about water, and
Speaker 1: it wasn't about infrastructure. Those were the symptoms of this
Speaker 1: underlying racism, the systemic racism, and this and this payment
Speaker 1: is reflective of that. You know, we said, this is
Speaker 1: another slap in the face to the residents and and
Speaker 1: this payment is reflective when you know, when you look
Speaker 1: at the payments I just brought up, you know, and
Speaker 1: you and you say the the amount for the amount,
Speaker 1: the number of people, and then you say, now, how
Speaker 1: Flint get this, and why did they keep saying this
Speaker 1: is such a great deal when we know it's not.
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you if we were a different persuasion,
Speaker 1: a different complexion, or a different socioeconomic status, this would
Speaker 1: not have happened. I think some people have gotten worn down.
Speaker 1: You know, they're just tired. I've heard some people say
Speaker 1: anything is better than nothing, and that's a sad place
Speaker 1: to be. What do you think is needed to heal?
Speaker 1: And by the way, you are a psychologist, so I'm
Speaker 1: very interested on the psychological damage and the repair of that,
Speaker 1: and what do you think needs to happen. The money
Speaker 1: needs to come, and it needs to be more money.
Speaker 1: We want more than charges. We want convictions. We want
Speaker 1: healthcare for the residents here and we wanted to follow
Speaker 1: them no matter where they go. We want access to
Speaker 1: college and trade school for the people. We need to
Speaker 1: look at a small business and entrepreneurship and putting some
Speaker 1: equity there. So we need different kinds of programs and
Speaker 1: services and resources put in place. If you want to
Speaker 1: try and make Flint whole, but starting with a deserving
Speaker 1: a fair, just amount of money, plus all of those
Speaker 1: other things that we should have access an opportunity for McAra.
Speaker 1: What have you learned about human nature from this experience?
Speaker 1: Sometimes you just really expect people to do the right
Speaker 1: thing and you can't. One of the things I always
Speaker 1: talk about is never underestimating the power of your voice
Speaker 1: and don't let anybody take it. You know. I was
Speaker 1: listening to you and Whitney. I think one of the
Speaker 1: questions you all have imposed was you're talking about reparations,
Speaker 1: do you think it will happen? You weren't sure when
Speaker 1: it would happen, if it would happen, or when it
Speaker 1: would happen. But one of the things is you don't
Speaker 1: stop talking about it. You don't stop demanding what is right.
Speaker 1: You don't stop speaking up for what is right and
Speaker 1: putting that information out there, because as soon as you
Speaker 1: do that, you have been defeated. And there are so
Speaker 1: many ways to be worn down as a human and
Speaker 1: as a black person. And I've just really learned how
Speaker 1: strong we are here. I think people have thought we'd
Speaker 1: go away, People thought we wouldn't still be speaking up
Speaker 1: and still fighting. But one thing I've always said is
Speaker 1: I'd rather show up for the fight and lose than
Speaker 1: to not show up. And that's what we're doing, because
Speaker 1: I think we do recognize that this isn't just about us.
Speaker 1: I mean were impact that we know what we deserve.
Speaker 1: We're fighting for other black and brown communities and we
Speaker 1: have said use us for that, because we know this
Speaker 1: should never happen any place else. And it it's just
Speaker 1: showed me what strength and resilience and courage and determination
Speaker 1: will do. But it also lets you see how easily
Speaker 1: worn down we can get as well. And that's what
Speaker 1: people want to see. That's what people want to have hapen.
Speaker 1: We want you to be quiet, we want you to
Speaker 1: be tired, we want you to go away. I can't
Speaker 1: do it, but wherever you are, you can make a
Speaker 1: difference and your voice can be heard. And that's what
Speaker 1: we have to show people. She's phenomenal. I just love her.
Speaker 1: Karen Weaver. She was mayor then and from where she
Speaker 1: is now, she's still working hard to repair her city.
Speaker 1: But again we're talking about the loss of trust and
Speaker 1: the betrayal of a system that said you are disposable
Speaker 1: and not even worthy of clean water. You know, I
Speaker 1: set in the room Whitney with women from Flint who
Speaker 1: lost their family members to disease from that crisis. What
Speaker 1: do you say to them? Making repairs and reparation and
Speaker 1: restitution won't heal their heart, won't bring their loved one back,
Speaker 1: won't heal black people's hearts. There's not enough money in
Speaker 1: the world to do that. It's like the Great Al
Speaker 1: Green saying, courtesy of burying Robin Gibb, how can you
Speaker 1: mend a broken heart? How can you stop the rain
Speaker 1: from falling down? What makes the world go around? They
Speaker 1: knew they gave it to a brother to sing that
Speaker 1: song because they weren't just talking about love lost. They
Speaker 1: were talking about something deeper than that. Don't you wonder sometimes, Erica,
Speaker 1: that the idea of outcome is focused on too much
Speaker 1: as opposed to just the act of like the act
Speaker 1: of trying to make reparations. I think you're right. I
Speaker 1: don't know what actually would heal Black Americans, and I
Speaker 1: don't know what would actually heal white Americans either. I
Speaker 1: think it's a really complicated place that we're in. But
Speaker 1: I think in some ways it's a leap of faith,
Speaker 1: It's a leaf of imagination that you have to take
Speaker 1: the step that you know is right, regardless of the consequences.
Speaker 1: That's true but I think I know a little bit
Speaker 1: about what would heal black and white and brown and
Speaker 1: all colors in between. It's and justice for all, liberty
Speaker 1: and justice for all. And we started our adventure. I
Speaker 1: told you that reparations would be too late for my
Speaker 1: mother to benefit from, and um, that's unfortunate because she
Speaker 1: deserves it. But talking with her and just listening to
Speaker 1: her stories, when they finally start talking about how to
Speaker 1: do this, the making and the repair towards this deliberate injury,
Speaker 1: the most care and attention should be to create a
Speaker 1: salve of bomb to soothe the broken hearts of a
Speaker 1: lost people who feel stateless and are exhausted and tired
Speaker 1: of talking about all this stuff. And this salve it's
Speaker 1: gonna need to penetrate and detoxify the hardened shelve of
Speaker 1: many white people and how they've been raised in this
Speaker 1: and moral wicked stew for so long. Now that said,
Speaker 1: I asked my mom the question that we've been asking
Speaker 1: everybody that we've been talking to throughout this journey. Do
Speaker 1: you think there should be reparations and do you think
Speaker 1: will get them in our lifetime? I learned to the
Speaker 1: second part person, No, I don't think you'll ever get them.
Speaker 1: I think you may get portions are partial. I think
Speaker 1: America cannot face its own darkness, in its own soul
Speaker 1: to the point that it can say yes. They keep
Speaker 1: telling themselves, especially since the Barack Obama the twenty Center,
Speaker 1: I say African American both ways, since he made it,
Speaker 1: that's what they put up in our face. But their
Speaker 1: souls are so dark and so dead and so weak
Speaker 1: that they can't say yes. This squarely is on us.
Speaker 1: We owe loads of minorities. Look what they can do
Speaker 1: to the Indians. For years they give them a little
Speaker 1: bit of land, and oh, y'all, now we've done them right,
Speaker 1: no matter that you've taken back a large part of it,
Speaker 1: or you broken treaties after treaties that you've almost decimated
Speaker 1: a large percentage of their tribes. No, I don't think
Speaker 1: America is ever going to be morally that strong, morally
Speaker 1: that just. But I think we will get like little
Speaker 1: like the puzzles, a little piece here, a little piece there,
Speaker 1: And every time they put a little piece, they will
Speaker 1: try to use that for justification as to being enough.
Speaker 1: How much more do they want? We want the whole plate?
Speaker 1: Why shouldn't we have the whole plate? You want the
Speaker 1: whole plate I want, said to a white minister at
Speaker 1: Lutheran Church that hired us to do social ministry. How
Speaker 1: come you want so much for you and so little
Speaker 1: for me? Why is that? What is it about your soul?
Speaker 1: Your being? Why is it that you can't see me
Speaker 1: as a full human being? If you've got a bold fool,
Speaker 1: why wouldn't not want a bold fool? What's different about me?
Speaker 1: I don't live in a different life. I don't have
Speaker 1: less build or have a hand out that says I
Speaker 1: only have half a need. I have a full need.
Speaker 1: And the more, if you are just and thinking righteously,
Speaker 1: you would know, the more self sufficient I am, the
Speaker 1: more productive I can be, the more we both benefit.
Speaker 1: Why can't you get that? That's a doctor in a wholenets,
Speaker 1: of true health, of true humanity. Why can't you see it?
Speaker 1: Next time? On reparations, the big payback? If you are
Speaker 1: going to who have reparations for everybody? Then one you're
Speaker 1: not talking about the wealthcare and the disparities and getting
Speaker 1: rid of it. And I have no problem with everybody
Speaker 1: getting something. What I do have a problem with is
Speaker 1: not directing targeted funds towards black people who are slave descendants,
Speaker 1: who we know that right here in the United States
Speaker 1: were the ones to suffer and to be used to
Speaker 1: prop up capitalism all these years. So anybody who was
Speaker 1: a slave here in the United States and is a
Speaker 1: descendant of a slave here in the United States ought
Speaker 1: to get reparations. Other people can argue for their own.
Speaker 1: This podcast is produced by Eric Alexander, Ben Arnon and
Speaker 1: Whitney Down. The executive producers are Charlemagne the God and
Speaker 1: Dolly S. Bishop. The Supervising producer is Nicole Childers and
Speaker 1: the lead producer is Devin Madock Obbins. The producer writer
Speaker 1: is Serres Castle, and the Associate producer is Kevin Phamm.
Speaker 1: With additional research support provided by Nile Blast. Original music
Speaker 1: by d J D T p R Reparations. The Big
Speaker 1: Payback is a production of color Farm Media, I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and The Black Effect Podcast Network in association with
Speaker 1: Best Case Studios. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.