Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to work in progress friends. I am so excited
Speaker 1: to sit down with one of my favorite personalities, comedians, storytellers, girlies.
Speaker 1: Today we are joined by Dylan mulvaney. She is here
Speaker 1: to talk about her new book, Paper Doll Notes from
Speaker 1: a Late Bloomer. In this book, Dylan pulls back the
Speaker 1: curtain on her life, from the it girl online lifestyle
Speaker 1: to witty and intimate reflections of her journey both pre
Speaker 1: and post transition, family school memories, dealing with the Internet, theater, manifesting,
Speaker 1: being a Broadway diva, all of it. Today, we are
Speaker 1: going to dig into the emotional journey of identity. We're
Speaker 1: gonna laugh quite a bit about how ridiculous life can be,
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about why this book is
Speaker 1: a love letter to every single person who stands up
Speaker 1: for queer joy. Let's dive in with Dylan mlvany.
Speaker 2: A. I'm here here, but it's funny because I feel
Speaker 2: we did just see each other two days ago. We did,
Speaker 2: but we didn't get enough air time.
Speaker 1: No, and that was also a bit of a whirlwind.
Speaker 1: It's such a great event.
Speaker 2: Yes, tell the people overwhelming. Tell people where we were.
Speaker 1: So we were at the Elton John Aids Foundation Giant
Speaker 1: Academy Awards fundraiser, amazing gala dinner.
Speaker 2: Yeah, chapel Roane. Oh my god, you've been to this before?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: How many times? Uh?
Speaker 1: Three?
Speaker 2: Maybe? Okay? I think this was my first one. I'm
Speaker 2: also really happy because I've been on a few podcasts
Speaker 2: lately where like they're like, this comes out in five months,
Speaker 2: but this one will actually come out soon so we
Speaker 2: can talk about it.
Speaker 1: But that's because this is coming out.
Speaker 2: Because we're talking about my book, and my book comes
Speaker 2: out next week, and I'm so excited. I I'm sending
Speaker 2: you the whole package that's going to be coming with
Speaker 2: my lush bath bomb and everything.
Speaker 1: But you love a bath bomb.
Speaker 2: I'm upset. Do you take baths?
Speaker 1: I should?
Speaker 2: I can already take this. ADHD is going to be
Speaker 2: kicking in for both of us pretty soon.
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to sit in a bath.
Speaker 2: I well, yeah, I think that. I like to bring
Speaker 2: all my activities, so I like a book, I like
Speaker 2: to memorize lines in the bath. I like to I
Speaker 2: do a computer. But you can't learn the hard way.
Speaker 2: I've lost like maybe three phones in one laptop in
Speaker 2: the bathtub, dropped done, but you're alive. I'm here, Apple.
Speaker 2: That's the one thing that really got going is like
Speaker 2: if you if it goes in, you're not going to
Speaker 2: will survive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, it's a glowing endorsement.
Speaker 2: Really, but I feel like my voice is kind of
Speaker 2: starting to give Sophia Bush a little bit after our
Speaker 2: night out.
Speaker 1: After night I turned into a pumpkin. And I don't
Speaker 1: know if it was the fact that I was wearing
Speaker 1: the biggest heels I've ever worn in my life, where
Speaker 1: if life has just been so intense, you know, in
Speaker 1: the current horror times that I'm emotionally exhausted, But once
Speaker 1: Chapel was done, it was like I ceased being plugged
Speaker 1: into the battery and I just I shut down and
Speaker 1: I had to.
Speaker 2: Go to bit you left that I was going to say,
Speaker 2: I didn't see you. But that was what was crazy
Speaker 2: about then A whole new group of people because there
Speaker 2: was the after party to the party, yes, and so
Speaker 2: it was like a whole new but we had been
Speaker 2: there for hours and hours and so that that was
Speaker 2: a lot in a good way. It was a lot
Speaker 2: and we're at the same table. We had some really
Speaker 2: cute people with us, cute unter twohand so adorable mckayl
Speaker 2: the Jay Rodriguez. Absolutely, Oh, I love seeing her. It's
Speaker 2: always so fun to see Bobby. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Yes, and you were you with who's your coworker that
Speaker 1: you are?
Speaker 2: That was my manager, manager. Yes, he's so cute and such.
Speaker 2: He's like my best friend and manager.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's so lovely. And then Ashland and I were there,
Speaker 1: and Renee, our sweet friend, Renee Stubbs came with us,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was just a great night. We had
Speaker 1: a nice crew.
Speaker 2: You know. What did bother me was that I didn't
Speaker 2: feel like people were lively enough for Chapel Rome. I
Speaker 2: didn't see enough dancing like people were in it. But
Speaker 2: I'm used to like thrusting my body for that h
Speaker 2: O T T O G. There wasn't a ton of
Speaker 2: room too.
Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of room every I felt like
Speaker 1: we were doing very tiny.
Speaker 2: It was yeah, but I will say it felt like
Speaker 2: watching queer history like while them singing together. It was incredible, unreal.
Speaker 2: And I was standing next to her dad for a
Speaker 2: while and it was like watching him kind of like
Speaker 2: take it in was really sweet. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We talked a lot about it on Money Day after,
Speaker 1: you know, we were all kind of recapping the night
Speaker 1: and watching the way Elton looked at her and watching
Speaker 1: the way she was looking at Elton. It felt, yeah,
Speaker 1: like such a such a historic moment across these generations
Speaker 1: of queerness and activism and advocacy, and I don't know,
Speaker 1: it made me really emotional.
Speaker 2: It was the that was where the gays were, like
Speaker 2: we were in that room. And I saw Chapel in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three at the Wiltern in LA and the
Speaker 2: only thing that I could compare it to was that
Speaker 2: that scene in Rocketman where like everyone's in the doing
Speaker 2: the crocodile rock and everyone starts to float off the
Speaker 2: you know, like off their feet into the air. And
Speaker 2: that is how I felt at this concert of like,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe like nine hundred people watching Chapel and
Speaker 2: then now seeing her do that like it it kind
Speaker 2: of had that like she's now like my Elton John
Speaker 2: for so many people who have grew up with Elton John,
Speaker 2: and I just thought, oh that was fun. I had
Speaker 2: a good time too.
Speaker 1: Did you like the party?
Speaker 2: I liked the party, I got to see lots of friends,
Speaker 2: and but I went to a West Hollywood gay bar afterwards,
Speaker 2: which is it's a rare occasion that I do that.
Speaker 1: But you did it.
Speaker 2: I was in Taco Bell at the end of the night.
Speaker 2: Did you order food?
Speaker 1: I was honestly so tired that I didn't even order
Speaker 1: late night tacos, which is rare for me.
Speaker 2: Where would you order from?
Speaker 1: Oh my god? So there's so many good places in
Speaker 1: La There's we have Tacos nineteen eighty six. We have Weisawtos.
Speaker 1: We have Cactus, which is really my.
Speaker 2: I don't know any og. I just get Taco Bell.
Speaker 2: Isn't that so sad? Oh?
Speaker 1: I have to take you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going to say this.
Speaker 1: We have a tour.
Speaker 2: We have a tour and now we have a little time.
Speaker 2: There's Taco Do's events now. Yes, And I think that
Speaker 2: yesterday was it was a bad hangover day for me.
Speaker 2: Today I feel alive. I feel like I want to
Speaker 2: be a little more selective about not going to too
Speaker 2: much stuff. Yeah, where did I saw you again? On?
Speaker 2: What was the other thing that I saw? I can't Oh?
Speaker 2: Women of the Year? Yeah time, Oh my god? And
Speaker 2: that one was uh Levey or you know the singer
Speaker 2: the uh Yes.
Speaker 1: She was wonderful.
Speaker 2: He did that song keep on Going with Your Crazy Dreams,
Speaker 2: like to your it was like to your twelve year
Speaker 2: old self, I think, And I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: think my twelve year old self would have ever imagined
Speaker 2: being at this like Women of the Year for Time
Speaker 2: gala with like all these icons. Like I was like
Speaker 2: kept flashing because I felt really tired, and I was like,
Speaker 2: oh do I want to go to this? And I
Speaker 2: looked around and was like, Oh my god, how lucky
Speaker 2: am I to be in this room with all these gals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was so special. It's really cool, And I
Speaker 1: want I think about that for you and what an
Speaker 1: amazing sort of connection to that song, because you know,
Speaker 1: we talked about this a little bit last time you
Speaker 1: came on the bus.
Speaker 2: It was basically a year ago. Yeah, I feel like
Speaker 2: I'm part of the pod family.
Speaker 1: Now are and I love it. But I you know,
Speaker 1: I always think about how you would interact with your
Speaker 1: younger self. And one of the things that I think
Speaker 1: is so beautiful in the book is that you actually
Speaker 1: dedicated it to your oldest best friend Lily Hi Lily,
Speaker 1: and I loved watching you tell her that the book
Speaker 1: is dedicated to her. You know, you wrote the girl
Speaker 1: who helped show me the way. What what does it
Speaker 1: feel like now to sort of look back at your
Speaker 1: younger self, you know, the girl that Leve is saying
Speaker 1: to the girl that you grew up with, and Lily
Speaker 1: a girl that she always recognized in you, even perhaps
Speaker 1: before you did. It must be so surreal from this
Speaker 1: place to look back at it.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that so little of like what's happening
Speaker 2: right now feels like normal, And it still feels like
Speaker 2: I'm either living in a dreamer or a nightmare. And
Speaker 2: Lily is like the one constant that like when I'm
Speaker 2: around her, it reminds me of what life looked like before,
Speaker 2: not only transition, but like this industry and in this town,
Speaker 2: and having her here with me, going to these events,
Speaker 2: you know, being my plus one is like it's a dream.
Speaker 2: We met when we were ten doing high school musical.
Speaker 2: She was in the basketball ensemble. I was Ryan, and
Speaker 2: she was pissed that she wasn't Sharpey. But I think
Speaker 2: that like having that person that has known you longer
Speaker 2: than you know anyone, and has loved you through all
Speaker 2: the different chapters. I think it feels really good because
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm still constantly meeting people trying to
Speaker 2: like either you know, convince them of what it is
Speaker 2: that I want to do or who I am or
Speaker 2: what my identity should look like for them, because it's
Speaker 2: the way that I see myself. But for her, I
Speaker 2: don't have there's no explanation necessary. Who is your lily
Speaker 2: like from back in the day.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I moved a lot as a kid,
Speaker 1: and so I we don't have so many people who
Speaker 1: stretch like way way wait, probably I don't really have
Speaker 1: anybody before middle school. And there's four of us from
Speaker 1: my middle school in high school that are still really close.
Speaker 1: But my like my my Lily is my best friend. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, we've been at it for almost twenty years together.
Speaker 2: And where'd you meet?
Speaker 1: We met at a conference way back in the day
Speaker 1: before they were cool or like branded, you.
Speaker 2: Know, a conference queen. So yeah, bush, Well, that is
Speaker 2: one thing I will say I was thinking about when
Speaker 2: because you know, we talked about going to Paris together
Speaker 2: last year and oh was that even maybe was that
Speaker 2: before we did the podcast? Or I think it was alf.
Speaker 2: I think it was after we had a really fun
Speaker 2: trip to Paris for a conference and a lovely man
Speaker 2: that worked at CIA was there and he's like, you
Speaker 2: know who always will show up, you know when you
Speaker 2: ask her and when you need her for something is
Speaker 2: Sophia Bush. And so like you've been doing in this
Speaker 2: for a long time and the best way, and like Sowet,
Speaker 2: you really are someone that people trust and also that
Speaker 2: like you come through for people in really big ways.
Speaker 1: I think showing up is really important. Ye, And it's
Speaker 1: certainly a love language for me. I know how meaningful
Speaker 1: it is when people do it for me. And I
Speaker 1: think you know the way Nia and I bonded and
Speaker 1: built our friendship, you know, out of that space, she
Speaker 1: cracked a joke like why is the girl from TV
Speaker 1: or taking notes like a court stenographer?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And I looked back at her and I said, I
Speaker 1: went to journalisms called my notes are very good? Do
Speaker 1: you need a copy? And she was like yeah. And
Speaker 1: then we've been best friends ever since. And I think
Speaker 1: for us, we've always been really mission aligned. And it's
Speaker 1: weird to me when when mission isn't part of you know,
Speaker 1: someone's life or their their ethos, and I think it's
Speaker 1: probably why so many of us find each other, because yes,
Speaker 1: you want to be creative and tell stories and have joy,
Speaker 1: and you also want to make the world around you
Speaker 1: a little kinder.
Speaker 2: And we want to have a reason. Like even it
Speaker 2: drives me crazy if I'm doing like a photo shoot
Speaker 2: and I don't understand, like who is this for? What
Speaker 2: is that? You know, it might just be a picture
Speaker 2: and I might look pretty, but like is there what
Speaker 2: else is here to like go off of? And no
Speaker 2: matter what it is, I think I want to figure
Speaker 2: out what is the reason behind something? And why am
Speaker 2: I doing it? Why am I writing this book? Why
Speaker 2: did you make this podcast? Why? Like there has to
Speaker 2: be something other than the surface behind it. Even if
Speaker 2: it is just to like bring a little joy or
Speaker 2: to make someone laugh like that that can be enough
Speaker 2: in some cases.
Speaker 1: But why did you want to write the book?
Speaker 2: I wanted to write the book. I think at first
Speaker 2: this book has become a lot of different things because
Speaker 2: I sold it really early on around days of Girlhood,
Speaker 2: and I thought I was gonna be this fluffy little
Speaker 2: piece of you know, fun for people to have on
Speaker 2: their coffee table about you know, diary entries for my
Speaker 2: first year, and I grew up reading like Chelsea Handler
Speaker 2: and all these really fun, you know, female comedian books.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to make people laugh and I wanted
Speaker 2: to be a little raunchy. And then once beer Gate happened,
Speaker 2: I knew that it needed to be something very different,
Speaker 2: and so it ended up being this thing that was
Speaker 2: deeply healing for me and I because I still in
Speaker 2: some ways had this like bowling ball sitting on my chest,
Speaker 2: not being able to articulate what happened or how I
Speaker 2: felt about it, and I wanted people to know because
Speaker 2: I built my platform on telling people things, and I
Speaker 2: think this feels like a much safer medium than social
Speaker 2: media does right now for me, And I think it's
Speaker 2: it's something that I never thought I would get to
Speaker 2: write a book and my life. So it's, i think,
Speaker 2: probably the thing I'm most proud of now and I'm
Speaker 2: scared because I love it and I don't know yet
Speaker 2: how the world is going to interpret that. But would
Speaker 2: you ever write a book?
Speaker 1: I've been dodging the question for about eight years.
Speaker 2: And now you can't because you're holding my hand.
Speaker 1: Here we are. Yeah, people have approached me a few
Speaker 1: times about it, and I think I'm finally in a
Speaker 1: place where I'm ready to think about that. I think
Speaker 1: there was a time where it felt when my team
Speaker 1: first came to me with the idea. At first it
Speaker 1: felt a little premature, And now I think I understand
Speaker 1: that feeling better because I understand so many things about
Speaker 1: myself better. But it's terrifying to.
Speaker 2: Think about it. I think if you just don't frame
Speaker 2: it as like a memoir, like I always think.
Speaker 1: Of, like, yeah, come on, like, we're not eighty right,
Speaker 1: I can't, I write, we can't.
Speaker 2: And that's what I really because some people still classify
Speaker 2: this like as a memoir. So I'm so scared to
Speaker 2: say memoir, Like is that because I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: from like Wisconsin and I'm talking about this book that
Speaker 2: I wrote called Them, and it's not a memoir. It's
Speaker 2: like it's a hard word to say. Can you say memoir? Memoir?
Speaker 1: Memoir?
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, we're settling on it.
Speaker 1: It helps if you if you memo, yeah, if you
Speaker 1: try to sound a little bit like the like a
Speaker 1: phone sex operator memoir memoir me, it comes out easier.
Speaker 2: Right. Oh my god, that's a beautiful bag is that
Speaker 2: your purse.
Speaker 1: It is.
Speaker 2: Love it and it will fit a memoir into Babies.
Speaker 1: With Adhd sat together for a podcast.
Speaker 2: So I I like that. I call it my like
Speaker 2: quarter life crisis book, and I think because it's very
Speaker 2: specific in the timeline, it's about my transition, it's about
Speaker 2: after beer Gate. We do have some essays that flash
Speaker 2: back to, you know, my childhood, but not in a
Speaker 2: way that feels like this is everything that I have
Speaker 2: to offer from age zero to twenty six and and
Speaker 2: that's all, you know, that could never revisit any of
Speaker 2: these topics. I wanted it to feel like Chelsea Handler
Speaker 2: did a lot of kind of essays early on that
Speaker 2: I really like loved reading as a teenager because it
Speaker 2: felt like I didn't know that we were allowed to
Speaker 2: comment on our lives, you know. And it kind of
Speaker 2: also kind of carry Bradshaw in the way that like
Speaker 2: she was writing about things so messily and I haven't
Speaker 2: gotten to talk a lot about like sex or religion
Speaker 2: or things you know online. That felt a lot more
Speaker 2: fun to put into a book.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And now a word from our sponsors who
Speaker 1: make this show possible. And I do think it's really
Speaker 1: important I like the references you make. I love Chelsea's books.
Speaker 1: And to your point, one of the things I think
Speaker 1: we need more of is a little bit of permission
Speaker 1: to be messy.
Speaker 2: Humans are messy my house right now. Oh it's a state.
Speaker 2: I also like, I'm one of those people that like
Speaker 2: I will like have If I'm like, I clean my
Speaker 2: entire place. It looks amazing for about fifteen minutes, and
Speaker 2: then something happens and I don't know what it is,
Speaker 2: but it then looks almost worse than it did before
Speaker 2: I cleaned it. So that's I think like. And I've
Speaker 2: seen a few the reviews are starting to roll out,
Speaker 2: and some of them are like, oh that you you know,
Speaker 2: it can be trickier to find the timeline or it
Speaker 2: can you know what are we in a journal entry
Speaker 2: or are we in an essay? And there's a little
Speaker 2: bit of that. But I kind of love that it's
Speaker 2: not about the life linear nature, but rather like what
Speaker 2: I'm learning and how I learned it versus when. But God,
Speaker 2: I feel like life sometimes only does your life right
Speaker 2: now feel like it's getting messier or you're cleaning it up?
Speaker 1: Oh I think I started a big glean up a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. My life feels very full and
Speaker 1: I am incredibly grateful for that, and I would like
Speaker 1: to have a little more space, and so I'm trying
Speaker 1: to kind of recalibrate certain things. Yeah, because I actually
Speaker 1: really like my life and I want to be present
Speaker 1: for more of it. Yes, and that feels special.
Speaker 2: I feel the same. I feel like this has been
Speaker 2: a really interesting time. I've taken on a bit too much.
Speaker 2: I've learned, and so I'm going to get through that
Speaker 2: and then try to clean shop in other ways. But
Speaker 2: I think my biggest thing is I like to show
Speaker 2: up one hundred percent for whatever it is that I'm doing,
Speaker 2: whether that's an interview or a you know, a performance
Speaker 2: like I want, like I did the Edinburgh Fringe Festival
Speaker 2: last year, and I during that time, you know, I
Speaker 2: had all these other things that needed attention or my
Speaker 2: eyes on and I basically was like, No, all I
Speaker 2: want to do right now is work on this show.
Speaker 2: And I would be so disappointed in myself if I
Speaker 2: don't give it my all and be like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: I was trying to do a thousand other things. So
Speaker 2: that is the part that scares me of like being
Speaker 2: a multi hyphen it and then being like, what that
Speaker 2: actually means of being able to put your attention to
Speaker 2: different things at the same time.
Speaker 1: I feel that as well, because I wonder if I
Speaker 1: just did one thing at a time, would I maybe
Speaker 1: accomplish more at the end. But also I have to
Speaker 1: I realize I have to be gentle with myself and
Speaker 1: also trust myself. I am curious about a.
Speaker 2: Lot I know on our ADHD wants us to be
Speaker 2: doing a lot at the same time.
Speaker 1: How did you actually start down the path of comedy
Speaker 1: and writing and the fringe festival? Like, oh, now you've
Speaker 1: written a book. You create so much, and I want
Speaker 1: to know.
Speaker 2: How, because I don't think anyone else is letting me
Speaker 2: do that, Like, no, I'm not someone that's being particularly
Speaker 2: like tapped on for a thousand different stories to tell.
Speaker 2: And so I think right now the best option is
Speaker 2: to tell my own, because I'm such an active member
Speaker 2: of my life and wanting to be in this industry
Speaker 2: knowing that these are some going to be some of
Speaker 2: the really integral years to what the rest of it
Speaker 2: looks like, and so I don't want to sit at
Speaker 2: home waiting for you know, I would love to just
Speaker 2: be an actress, and I would love to just wait
Speaker 2: for the auditions to come in and for the parts
Speaker 2: to play. Right now, that's you know, limited for trans women,
Speaker 2: especially me, who I think is you know, shares quite publicly,
Speaker 2: so I'm always trying to carve out other ways of
Speaker 2: filling time. And then I think what's fun is when
Speaker 2: somebody does approach me with an idea or an opportunity,
Speaker 2: I can fit it in amongst what I've already created.
Speaker 2: But I'm not waiting for anyone else, And I think
Speaker 2: there is something frustrating and can be exhausting of like
Speaker 2: always trying to manufacture and trying to tell, you know,
Speaker 2: a story or get something off the ground. But I'm
Speaker 2: proud that that I'm I feel quite I'm usually quite
Speaker 2: sub in certain situations, but I feel very dumb when
Speaker 2: it comes to my career and my trajectory in my creativity.
Speaker 2: Like I think I'm really after finding my gender identity.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is what being an artist
Speaker 2: can be now that I've like figured some things out
Speaker 2: within myself. And I think maybe had things come a
Speaker 2: little easier as far as like I, you know, was
Speaker 2: on Broadway right now doing eight shows a week. I
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't have written this book, and I probably wouldn't have,
Speaker 2: you know, started my podcast or any of these things
Speaker 2: that I think I need, we need right now. And
Speaker 2: I do think transjoy can look a lot of different ways,
Speaker 2: but this book is probably the loudest version of it
Speaker 2: for me in this moment.
Speaker 1: I love that for you. Yeah, And what it strikes
Speaker 1: me as when you talk about sort of taking control,
Speaker 1: it's it's agency. You are taking agency of your creativity.
Speaker 1: You are you are making the things that you want
Speaker 1: and need that your younger self probably needed too. And
Speaker 1: I loved something that you said. Rolling Stone just did
Speaker 1: a great profile on you on the book, and it
Speaker 1: was such a sweet way to clap back at people
Speaker 1: who are so upset by transjoy. You said, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to influence anyone to do anything other than see
Speaker 1: a Broadway musical.
Speaker 2: Period. Well that's not like, that's it, that's my transagenda. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and hopefully that broad musical would have a transperson in it.
Speaker 1: But would be wonderful it should be you.
Speaker 2: But at the very least, go see fucking cats, you know,
Speaker 2: Like I'm I just think that people are so easy
Speaker 2: to project identities and activism and all these things onto
Speaker 2: you when if you really listen to what the person
Speaker 2: is trying to say or you know, what I've also
Speaker 2: think is crazy as I've done interviews where I'm like,
Speaker 2: I am not an activist, and then they title the
Speaker 2: interview activist Dylan mulvany, and so it is really crazy
Speaker 2: how sometimes loud and clear and articulate you have to
Speaker 2: be in order to get people to figure out what
Speaker 2: it is you want.
Speaker 1: So what would you say you want?
Speaker 2: I would like to be a Broadway diva who gets
Speaker 2: to tell stories, sometimes my own, sometimes fictional. I want
Speaker 2: to make people laugh, especially at some of the dark things,
Speaker 2: like through transness and identity. I would love to make
Speaker 2: people think. I think that's something that's newer on like
Speaker 2: my list of desires, because for a long time I
Speaker 2: didn't know that I could be vulnerable, like publicly. That
Speaker 2: was kind of against the laws of my family, you know,
Speaker 2: we were supposed to keep those things to ourselves. But
Speaker 2: now I love it and I think that I I
Speaker 2: would love to find love in the hard places and
Speaker 2: help other people figure that out too. But in a
Speaker 2: lot of those things, you know, could be as stupid
Speaker 2: as in a sketch or in you know, a musical
Speaker 2: or what they don't have to all be in you know,
Speaker 2: at conferences or you know, speaking at the White House
Speaker 2: or what, you know, whatever it is that that some
Speaker 2: people also might assume that means.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when you stand up for people, stand
Speaker 1: up for yourself, stand up for others, you can kind
Speaker 1: of get cast as a very serious person.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So many people think I'm so serious, and then people
Speaker 1: hang out with me and they're like, oh, you're weird
Speaker 1: and really quirky and funny.
Speaker 2: Right, we know how to have a good time. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I actually will say though, some of the most serious
Speaker 2: people are the ones that like to have the most fun.
Speaker 2: But then people expect that of potentially us. We're in
Speaker 2: a way that I don't think is always fair. I think, like,
Speaker 2: I love letting loose with people, and I think people
Speaker 2: can tell that from social media. But I also I'm
Speaker 2: definitely not the trans girl that is ready to like,
Speaker 2: you know, give you every single statistic and talk about
Speaker 2: every single you know bill or you know, anti trans
Speaker 2: legislation in the works. And I feel guilty about that sometimes,
Speaker 2: but then I realize I'm like, oh, but there's like
Speaker 2: so many other dolls that are really good at that,
Speaker 2: and I can do my best to figure out how
Speaker 2: to connect them when those opportunities come my way or
Speaker 2: you know, they've we have great conversations, like I'm going
Speaker 2: on a bunch of talk shows next week and I've
Speaker 2: talked to a bunch of dolls about you know, what,
Speaker 2: what should I say? What do you think is important
Speaker 2: for the community? You know, trying to stay really proactive
Speaker 2: so that when those questions do come up, I'm ready,
Speaker 2: but not leading with it.
Speaker 1: Well, one thing I think is really important is that
Speaker 1: that can't just fall on you, right, It can't just
Speaker 1: be on trans women to advocate for trans women, since
Speaker 1: women need to show up and advocate for you in
Speaker 1: the same way that when we talk about gender based
Speaker 1: violence around the world, that's actually that's a male problem,
Speaker 1: that is a statistically male problem. If we scream into
Speaker 1: the void about what women go through in the world
Speaker 1: and men don't join us to say men should stop
Speaker 1: assaulting women, right, we're in a vacuum. And so I
Speaker 1: think I'm so glad you feel like you get to
Speaker 1: be your full self, and I love that you have
Speaker 1: a community that helps you figure out what you should
Speaker 1: use those platforms to say in the moment, and I
Speaker 1: want other folks to be reminded that we have to
Speaker 1: show up for you too.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. But it's also fascinating what's happening, I
Speaker 2: think when it comes to allyship, because the you know,
Speaker 2: far right extremists are getting really good at trying to
Speaker 2: scare our allies away. And even this was an example
Speaker 2: is getting my makeup done by a really lovely gay
Speaker 2: man last week, and he was talking about this transvestigation
Speaker 2: over this very famous woman that you know, all these
Speaker 2: people are claiming is a trans woman and all the
Speaker 2: reasons why they think she's trans, and I had to
Speaker 2: explain to him that it was like deeply problematic because
Speaker 2: you know, whether this person was trans or not, they
Speaker 2: were trying to cast her as this like monster or
Speaker 2: this person hiding you know, secrets or deceiving the public.
Speaker 2: And and I had to explain that like what they
Speaker 2: now want to do is make cis women believe that
Speaker 2: like being called trans or you know, being accused of
Speaker 2: being a trans person is like the worst, you know thing,
Speaker 2: when in reality it's it's like most transgirls I know
Speaker 2: are really cute and and they we've got our you know,
Speaker 2: we've got we're working on it, we're getting it together.
Speaker 2: But I find it very problematic that a lot of
Speaker 2: allies don't always know what is transphobic, like like and
Speaker 2: you know, we've got to figure out those conversations. But
Speaker 2: if if it's pushing a notion that like transness is
Speaker 2: evil or you know problematic, like, chances are it's probably transphobic. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And and so it's it's interesting getting to still exist
Speaker 2: in around so many icons, and especially these women that
Speaker 2: I call friends and and that support me publicly like
Speaker 2: I had Lady Gaga last year post on International Women's
Speaker 2: Day or you know, standing up for me. And and
Speaker 2: that's the kind of where I'm like, holy crap, like
Speaker 2: there's there's still the good ones, and I'm here with
Speaker 2: you right now. I think that it makes me sad
Speaker 2: to think that certain people would be scared to you know, uh,
Speaker 2: be seen with the trans person or to work with
Speaker 2: us or hire us. But there's so much power in
Speaker 2: saying no, I'm not going to live in that fear
Speaker 2: or that you know people are going to boycott my
Speaker 2: product or not watch this television show or unfollow because
Speaker 2: you support you know a transperson. That's that is, it's
Speaker 2: we can't give into that, We cannot give into that fear.
Speaker 2: I'm so tired of being scared.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. One of
Speaker 1: the things I think is really beautiful about the book
Speaker 1: is you do claim so much joy, you do share
Speaker 1: so much happiness with us, and you also aren't shying
Speaker 1: away from the things that have been hard, and you
Speaker 1: do talk about beer Gate, and you do really bring
Speaker 1: us into what it feels like to be targeted by
Speaker 1: these far right hate campaigns. But the thing that hit
Speaker 1: me so hard actually is something you share in the
Speaker 1: first thirty pages of the book, and you talk about
Speaker 1: how so many external opinions. You know, you're one person
Speaker 1: on the internet and millions of people can comment at you,
Speaker 1: and talk about how so many external opinions can can
Speaker 1: create so much noise, so much mental and emotional noise,
Speaker 1: that your darkest thoughts, your self loathing, your critique that
Speaker 1: all of us have inside of us, can suddenly be
Speaker 1: parroting the worst of the comment section. Yes and how
Speaker 1: And reading your words when you talked about it, like
Speaker 1: took my breath away because I know exactly how that feels.
Speaker 1: It honestly made me gasp, Like I heard myself gasp
Speaker 1: when I read it, because I know how paralyzing that
Speaker 1: feeling is, and.
Speaker 2: How do you get I think, how do you identify it?
Speaker 2: How do you get out that crazy is? When you can,
Speaker 2: then when you have made enough progress to see that
Speaker 2: you are, you're quite literally at a crossroads where you're like,
Speaker 2: I'm either going to believe this what they're saying about myself,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to take it on as part of me,
Speaker 2: or I'm going to acknowledge that what they're saying is
Speaker 2: not true about myself because I know who I am
Speaker 2: and the people that I love know who I am,
Speaker 2: and and let that be the course that you take.
Speaker 2: And I actually, even just yesterday, even that we were
Speaker 2: talking about the Elton John party, I was interviewing people
Speaker 2: on the carpet and I was reading all these comments about, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, this girl's so annoying, she's standing too close
Speaker 2: to people, she won't let her you know, people get
Speaker 2: a word, all these things, and I went I almost
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I'm going to make a video now
Speaker 2: being like, yeah, I'm annoying, I know it. And then
Speaker 2: I was like oh my gosh, like it was like
Speaker 2: a clear cut you just changed your opinion about yourself
Speaker 2: based on these other people. And there were plenty of
Speaker 2: other comments that loved it and that were, you know,
Speaker 2: behind what I was doing, but those other ones were louder,
Speaker 2: And I think what I had to do was not
Speaker 2: only kind of take some distance from taking in information
Speaker 2: about myself, which is so hard to not look, but
Speaker 2: I had to be very clear about who who I was.
Speaker 2: I think I spent kind of the last two years
Speaker 2: since Beergate getting very specific about what I know about
Speaker 2: myself to be true, so that now when I put
Speaker 2: a book out and have a lot of new critique
Speaker 2: coming my way, that I can stand behind those things.
Speaker 2: I know I'm a musical theater girl. I know that
Speaker 2: I talk too much. I know that well that even
Speaker 2: me just saying that that was a projection of someone else.
Speaker 2: That I love to talk is how I'll rephrase that.
Speaker 2: That I feel really beautiful most of the time, but
Speaker 2: that I also can sometimes get in my head and
Speaker 2: that's often linked to dysphoria. I know that I love
Speaker 2: to be raunchy, and that that's not something to be
Speaker 2: ashamed of about myself. These are little things that I
Speaker 2: think are helpful. Then when I read those, I can
Speaker 2: kind of go down the checklist and be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: so that's it's not here already, and I don't think
Speaker 2: we need to add it. It's just it's so crazy
Speaker 2: how great social media can be and then how toxic
Speaker 2: it and even the I think it goes back to
Speaker 2: the press too in the media of how they're pushing transphobia,
Speaker 2: because a lot of what they're saying and these headlines
Speaker 2: are like deeply transphobic, but they're very click baity and
Speaker 2: those are other like those Actually I have an easier
Speaker 2: time laughing at because it's like it feels like this,
Speaker 2: you know, news source that couldn't be more incorrect, versus
Speaker 2: like seeing a person's name on a screen that's like
Speaker 2: leaving a specific comment, because that feels, in a weird
Speaker 2: way more tangible knowing there's like a human behind it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where it's a bot though, what are bots could
Speaker 1: just be a bot?
Speaker 2: I don't understand. Do you have do you have bots
Speaker 2: are looked into bots?
Speaker 1: Oh, it's just it's relentless and it's.
Speaker 2: We need like a queer bot farm that like throws
Speaker 2: the good stuff out there. Just imagine someone like doing.
Speaker 1: Like sexy sassy commentary.
Speaker 2: Oh that would be not who's going to pay for that?
Speaker 1: I don't know. We need a benevolent it.
Speaker 2: Was really billion Yeah, we need a gay billionaire to
Speaker 2: put out.
Speaker 1: But I don't think there are any benevolent billionaires. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2: I hate it. It's tricky, right, weird.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but if we win the power Ball,
Speaker 1: it could be that's.
Speaker 2: What, and then it's going to be us making a
Speaker 2: good bot farm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I'm here for that.
Speaker 2: Is that an oxymoron? A good bot farm? Is it bot?
Speaker 2: By the way, what is robot? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Like a robot, it's a it's a little digital terrorist essentially.
Speaker 2: I'm also getting scared of, like how we're our future
Speaker 2: is going to go with robots?
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. Everything's crazy. I'm like, did nobody watch Terminator?
Speaker 2: What are we doing with the I don't like the
Speaker 2: self driving cars?
Speaker 1: No creeps me out. It all creeps me out. But
Speaker 1: at least we're entering into a future where your book exists.
Speaker 2: Woo. I bet it's going to get banned so fast.
Speaker 1: You know what's really sort of hilarious but sad about
Speaker 1: you saying that is. My partner was like, what is
Speaker 1: this enormous box of book? What is this? Like you
Speaker 1: need any more books? And I said, oh no, sorry,
Speaker 1: last week I had to buy all the books the
Speaker 1: DOJ band just in case. Oh my god, we're that
Speaker 1: in it. And I'm going, this is so weird that
Speaker 1: I'm turning my house into a book archive just in case.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean and say that I write in the book,
Speaker 2: I say like, I hope the words on this page
Speaker 2: last longer than the videos on my profile. And TikTok
Speaker 2: got banned for a second there, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I thought this was going to be like a nostalgic
Speaker 2: fifty years from now sentence, And now it's like the reality.
Speaker 2: But a lot harder to get rid of something physical
Speaker 2: like this than to, you know, have a profile disappear.
Speaker 1: Line, push something and have it go.
Speaker 2: And I think what I wrote about meeting Judy Bloom
Speaker 2: in my book and I got to interview her during
Speaker 2: literally the height of beer Gate, and what had happened
Speaker 2: right before I walked into that interview was I got
Speaker 2: slammed coming out of a woman's bathroom in the hotel
Speaker 2: that I was interviewing Judy Bloom, and they you know,
Speaker 2: were saying horrible things to me up in my face.
Speaker 2: They had totally trespassing. But then I had to walk
Speaker 2: into this interview with Judy and I swear things just
Speaker 2: happened when they're supposed to do, and you see the
Speaker 2: people that you needed because I felt so small in
Speaker 2: that moment, and then getting to talk to her, you know,
Speaker 2: this is a woman who had her books banned years
Speaker 2: and years ago in like the seventies and the eighties,
Speaker 2: and and she looked at me at the end and
Speaker 2: she was like, do not let anyone stop you from
Speaker 2: sharing your story, from writing it down, from putting it
Speaker 2: out there. She's like, there's so much good to be done.
Speaker 2: She was like, there were so many people early on
Speaker 2: that tried to make me feel like I was, you know, evil,
Speaker 2: or that I was doing something that was corrupting the U.
Speaker 2: And she was like, but you have to know what
Speaker 2: your the purpose is of something, and she was like,
Speaker 2: you've got to put it out there. And so like
Speaker 2: hearing that from like Judy Bloom, that's somebody that's a
Speaker 2: little bit better to be listening to than Fox News.
Speaker 1: I would say, well, yeah, or some insane person bombarding bathrooms.
Speaker 1: It's so gross. It's so gross, But you know what
Speaker 1: is is wild to me, And I think this is
Speaker 1: something people miss again because you know, they have to
Speaker 1: create clickbait and rage in some ways, so they have
Speaker 1: to make everyone afraid of everyone. And there's no way
Speaker 1: that seeing you exists in the world and be happy
Speaker 1: is going to turn some sisc hid trams. But what
Speaker 1: I know to be true is that a four year
Speaker 1: old who does what you did and says to your mom,
Speaker 1: God made a mistake, I'm in the wrong body could
Speaker 1: see you and know that what they're saying isn't crazy
Speaker 1: and that they're going to be okay someday. Yes, And
Speaker 1: that to me feels like such an important thing in
Speaker 1: the world to just make sure that people don't feel alone.
Speaker 2: Right. And I've now what's been fascinating since talking about
Speaker 2: that moment with my mom, Like so many people, even
Speaker 2: in the industry, have like come to me and been like, hey,
Speaker 2: my kid is you know going through this or And
Speaker 2: it gives people permission to you know, have conversations and
Speaker 2: to like get to the bottom of things in a
Speaker 2: way that I think there was so much shame about before,
Speaker 2: and I even told my family, I was like, I
Speaker 2: didn't paint us as these like picture perfect people, because
Speaker 2: we aren't and that's not what our family is. But
Speaker 2: hopefully other people getting to see our progress and that
Speaker 2: the fact that we all still love each other and
Speaker 2: I feel so supportive by them is actually way more
Speaker 2: beneficial than me painting it as like a pretty picture.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the hardest things
Speaker 1: about being a human in the public eye is that
Speaker 1: you very rarely get to go through something and process
Speaker 1: it and then talk about it when it's done. You
Speaker 1: kind of have to process in real time out loud,
Speaker 1: and I think that can be very toxic because then
Speaker 1: your life gets treated like it's a TV show or
Speaker 1: a storyline, and you're like.
Speaker 2: No, this is happening to me, and it feels like
Speaker 2: it will never change. I now feel really removed from
Speaker 2: certain ideas that were made about me, like even being
Speaker 2: the trans beer girl, and now years later, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm doing all these other things that have nothing to
Speaker 2: do with that. And I thought that was going to
Speaker 2: be the way that I was interpreted forever, but it's not.
Speaker 1: But it's not, And I think It's beautiful to see
Speaker 1: you go through certain things publicly process them and then
Speaker 1: be able to reflect. But I love that some of
Speaker 1: the stuff about you and your family, you've been able
Speaker 1: to do both. You've been able to do the real time,
Speaker 1: but you've also been able to take us in the
Speaker 1: book on this journey backwards and yeah, you've been honest
Speaker 1: about it. And I think honesty actually as a reader
Speaker 1: makes me feel so hopeful for my own family, for
Speaker 1: other families.
Speaker 2: Well, I think you can tell when some especially if
Speaker 2: you're like reading something of someone's like, you can tell
Speaker 2: if how it's being spun as far as like, and
Speaker 2: I was like, I want to be as factual as
Speaker 2: I can with like how these moments went down, so
Speaker 2: that people can feel whatever way that they feel about them.
Speaker 2: And then there are moments where I really get quite
Speaker 2: emotional and show them kind of how I was feeling
Speaker 2: mentally versus like what was actually, you know, happening in
Speaker 2: the world around me. And a lot of that I
Speaker 2: think in the book kind of slowed where I went
Speaker 2: in tod Ayahuasca in Peru and I wrote about you
Speaker 2: know this sort of like I wanted this it to
Speaker 2: be this quick fix and what it really did was
Speaker 2: it like started something in myself that I was gonna
Speaker 2: end up. I'm still thinking about so many of the
Speaker 2: things that I found while I was down there on
Speaker 2: that's weird to call it a drug. It really feels
Speaker 2: more like a medicine. It's a medicine. Yes, would you
Speaker 2: ever do aahuasca have? Oh? Wow? Okay, we I don't
Speaker 2: even know if we've talked about I haven't. Oh, we
Speaker 2: need to. And it's It's also funny because I think
Speaker 2: like when I told people that I was going down
Speaker 2: there to do that, there was either certain people were like,
Speaker 2: that's amazing, I've always wanted to do that, tell me everything.
Speaker 2: And then there are some people who feel really uncomfortable
Speaker 2: by the idea of like doing something a different kind
Speaker 2: of way. And that was like my work in progress
Speaker 2: was to try it in a way that was not
Speaker 2: offered to me as a young person or in my
Speaker 2: early years, Like just you know if when when really
Speaker 2: hits the fan doing in a different way, well, I
Speaker 2: think a lot of.
Speaker 1: People are scared of anything expansive. I think it's why
Speaker 1: so many people are afraid of trans people, because you
Speaker 1: challenge boundary and binary and you say, there's a more
Speaker 1: expansive way to be a human. You know, our friend
Speaker 1: Aloke talks about this all the time, that the freedom
Speaker 1: that you have to claim to be trans is terrifying
Speaker 1: to people that don't feel free in their own lives.
Speaker 1: And for me, you know, ten years ago, when I
Speaker 1: had this, like deeply prepared for you know, therapy involved
Speaker 1: all the things experience. It was part of a larger
Speaker 1: process of how do I begin to not be stuck
Speaker 1: in this way of thinking? How do I begin to
Speaker 1: interrupt a feedback loop and see other options that are
Speaker 1: probably here but that I'm not seeing right. And I
Speaker 1: think when you can be well researched and safe and
Speaker 1: obviously you know.
Speaker 2: Ready, you're ready when in whatever way ready can feel,
Speaker 2: because it doesn't always you know, you won't feel one
Speaker 2: hundred percent ready.
Speaker 1: But sure, But I think that's true for anything. And
Speaker 1: when something calls to you when you're when claiming who
Speaker 1: you are out loud, calls to you when when saying
Speaker 1: you know, I built this whole life and I checked
Speaker 1: off everything on my list like a good girl, and
Speaker 1: I really don't like it. And I think maybe I
Speaker 1: deserve to like my life, that I learned a few
Speaker 1: years ago is a radical act, yes, And I think
Speaker 1: I think sometimes when you are radically courageous, people really
Speaker 1: will shot on you for it. But some people will
Speaker 1: also walk up and hug you and say you saved
Speaker 1: my life, and that makes it worth it. I just
Speaker 1: wish the Internet was less prone to sitting on people.
Speaker 2: I sometimes I forget because I was, you know, fourteen,
Speaker 2: the only like gay person out at my high school.
Speaker 2: Like I forget that it is there are so many
Speaker 2: adults that are still grappling with these decisions, that are
Speaker 2: living these life, have children, have you know, jobs that
Speaker 2: like that. They are trying to make the most difficult
Speaker 2: decision to be themselves possible. And I think I have
Speaker 2: to always remember that it's not always as easier available
Speaker 2: to people as someone like me who was really privileged
Speaker 2: to although my family was conservative and Catholic, like I
Speaker 2: didn't get thrown out of the house, and I found
Speaker 2: these pockets of community like in theater, where like some
Speaker 2: people don't have those places to like see gay people thriving. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so the Internet is really good in that way because
Speaker 2: you know, people get to watch things like this.
Speaker 1: But I.
Speaker 2: Think that it's I don't know. This book coming out
Speaker 2: in twenty five is crazy because it's a radical act. Yes,
Speaker 2: but and even when it was decided they would come out,
Speaker 2: we didn't know who the president was going to be,
Speaker 2: We didn't know what trans legislation was going to look like.
Speaker 2: And so I have to trust that this is the
Speaker 2: right time. And I don't want to become a poster
Speaker 2: child again, like how that felt like it went down
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two. But I feel charged up in
Speaker 2: a really good way, which is yummy. How when do
Speaker 2: you feel the most, like when you're feeling like really exhausted.
Speaker 2: How long does it take you to get back into
Speaker 2: like progress mode, or when you've like had a big
Speaker 2: like what feels like maybe a failure, or when you
Speaker 2: know something doesn't go your way that you've been working
Speaker 2: so hard towards. How how long does it take you
Speaker 2: to bounce back? And then when do you know that
Speaker 2: you're ready?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's sort of a case
Speaker 1: by case thing, something that I have learned monitor for myself.
Speaker 1: As you said earlier, you went, oh, look at me,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm already acknowledging something nasty someone said to me
Speaker 1: and apologizing for it when I find myself so wounded
Speaker 1: by negativity that I'm figuring out how to answer for it.
Speaker 1: When you know, the next time I have a MIC,
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to figure out how to gently address.
Speaker 1: Then I know I need a beat before you know,
Speaker 1: I see it. I don't need to explain everything to everyone.
Speaker 1: And it's a weird thing because the Internet will critique
Speaker 1: you if you don't, and then if you do, they
Speaker 1: critique you for oversharing, and no matter what you do,
Speaker 1: you can't get it right. And so I have to
Speaker 1: take a breath and say, this is not a normal
Speaker 1: human experience for there to be one of us and
Speaker 1: multimillions of people talking at us all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So if I know that, how can I then try
Speaker 1: to use it for good? Remind myself that it's also
Speaker 1: not my real life, and be in my life as
Speaker 1: much as I can, and that even when I can
Speaker 1: ask myself those questions, I know I'm in a good
Speaker 1: place because I'm making adjustments for my humanity right, not
Speaker 1: for what something looks like.
Speaker 2: And is Ashland the one that helps you take a
Speaker 2: beat and like figure out what it is you are
Speaker 2: called to say or what your you know, real opinion
Speaker 2: is on certain things before you share that public like
Speaker 2: who is who's the because for me it is a
Speaker 2: lot of lily, it's my life, coach Morey, it's me
Speaker 2: and a local couple all the time. You know, there
Speaker 2: are those people do you have, like who do you
Speaker 2: find yourself in those tough situations?
Speaker 1: Going to and now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
Speaker 1: What I think I have had to come to terms
Speaker 1: with having real, joyful, like deep, silly, expansive love in
Speaker 1: my life is that I have actually done so much
Speaker 1: by myself for so long. I tend to show up
Speaker 1: for other people, but I very rarely ask people to
Speaker 1: show up for me. And I am learning to ask.
Speaker 1: I am learning that I don't have to do it
Speaker 1: all by myself. I am learning to call my you know,
Speaker 1: wonderful coven of brilliant women and just say, like, what
Speaker 1: the fuck are we going to do with this?
Speaker 2: I will say, I feel like there's so many people
Speaker 2: in this world that have to find every other opinion
Speaker 2: with their own before they conform theirs, And so it
Speaker 2: is kind of iconic in a way that you can
Speaker 2: do things independently. But I will say the fact that
Speaker 2: you have that like this like arsenal of incredible humans
Speaker 2: to tap into, you should use it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm working on that. And it feels nice
Speaker 1: to not have so much weight on my shoulders all
Speaker 1: the time. I I have a question for you, because look,
Speaker 1: we're all obviously navigating our lives. But one of the
Speaker 1: things that I feel excited about for you as your
Speaker 1: friend is as you kind of name and claim all
Speaker 1: your power. I feel like you're also in this fun
Speaker 1: moment of starting to figure out who's going to pour
Speaker 1: into your cup. And and it's different for you. You know,
Speaker 1: you talked about being you know, a young out gay
Speaker 1: and then having to really come to terms with the
Speaker 1: fact that, oh, that's not my full self. I'm actually
Speaker 1: I'm actually this woman yes that I've always felt in me.
Speaker 1: How how does that experience shift how you date?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, because you're also so public. Yes, but
Speaker 2: I will think about this tall glass of water, because
Speaker 2: needs to be someone who is comfortable dating someone in
Speaker 2: the public eye, is attracted to trans women, is comfortable
Speaker 2: with maybe aspects of their life. You know, not that
Speaker 2: I'm going to put a relationship on blast, but there
Speaker 2: is a chance whether I speak or not that aspects
Speaker 2: of their life could be affected by what I'm doing
Speaker 2: and saying. So it almost has to be someone who
Speaker 2: has like a kink for like an oversharing trans woman.
Speaker 2: But like what I the most important thing is that
Speaker 2: I cannot be with someone who I have any doubts
Speaker 2: is ashamed to be with me. And because what I
Speaker 2: have done so well is like start to let go
Speaker 2: of the shame that I have around who I am.
Speaker 2: So what would be the worst case scenario is me
Speaker 2: attaching myself to someone else who then I start changing
Speaker 2: myself based on how they're reflecting back to me and
Speaker 2: what they're seeing in me and what they articulate to
Speaker 2: me about myself. And so I really think it's going
Speaker 2: to be so I actually it's a hot take, but
Speaker 2: I would like it to be someone that has something
Speaker 2: to do either with our industry or is in the
Speaker 2: public eye already, so that like if I was with
Speaker 2: this like doctor that you know there doesn't get rocked
Speaker 2: on the daily mail because like there's just things.
Speaker 1: And maybe baptize someone in the public life fire.
Speaker 2: I get that, yes, And so in a way there
Speaker 2: would be some comfort in knowing, like, oh, this person
Speaker 2: has their own thing going on as well, But I
Speaker 2: think I'm really turned on by creativity, by drive. I
Speaker 2: find it so like, what if I'm like out on
Speaker 2: a date with someone and they're talking about all the
Speaker 2: things they're doing, I get so horny because I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is someone who has like like dreams and ambitions
Speaker 2: just the way that I am. So they're not gonna
Speaker 2: if I come in, you know, I walk into the
Speaker 2: house one day and I'm like, I want to do this, this,
Speaker 2: this and this that. They're like, WHOA like? I think
Speaker 2: I want like a yes human. And I've really I've
Speaker 2: tried the hookup thing. I've found it to be really true.
Speaker 2: La Is Honey, it's not what I mean.
Speaker 1: You've tried the hookup.
Speaker 2: I've tried the casual whether it's I mean, so I'm
Speaker 2: so crazy, I'm so really weird. I've actually I only
Speaker 2: have Riyah. I've been thinking about potentially deleting it just
Speaker 2: because it hasn't yielded the greatest results. But I think
Speaker 2: there what's the word, oh, demi sexual? I think maybe
Speaker 2: chapel Rone was talking about in an interview about what
Speaker 2: I like is I need to be emotionally connected with
Speaker 2: someone beforehand, and especially I think being trans, I feel
Speaker 2: really protective over my body and the fact that there's
Speaker 2: still so many things changing with it, and I want
Speaker 2: it to be someone that I like, Like, it is
Speaker 2: hard for me to get to a place where I'm
Speaker 2: like ready to like take my makeup off and like,
Speaker 2: god rude. I was thinking about you know, oh, someone
Speaker 2: was talking about like shower sex recently, and I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's my worst nightmare because I was like, not only
Speaker 2: are the fake lashes you know they're coming off, but
Speaker 2: like that is really it's such a vulnerable state to
Speaker 2: be in. But I really hope that it's with someone
Speaker 2: and I like older. I've always liked a mature soul,
Speaker 2: But I hope it's with someone who is proud to
Speaker 2: be with the trans person and is and who gets
Speaker 2: a kick out of whatever it is that I'm doing
Speaker 2: or want to do. Yeah, and I want to be
Speaker 2: the same with them.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, you got to think about I'm
Speaker 2: looking for like twenty eight to fifty eight. Mask by
Speaker 2: actual vibe feels gummy, you know, kind of like daddy,
Speaker 2: but also you know, can be like soft as well.
Speaker 2: Think on it. You've got you've got a pool of queers.
Speaker 1: Now, oh, I'm gonna really, I'm gonna think.
Speaker 2: And the other thing I used to did gay men,
Speaker 2: and they were so much better than straight guys. I
Speaker 2: had no idea what I was missing and like or
Speaker 2: what that I had in that what I ended up
Speaker 2: getting was not as good as I thought it was
Speaker 2: going to be. And I have an essay called the
Speaker 2: Kissing Bandit in the book where I talk about, you know,
Speaker 2: just like what it felt like to have like the
Speaker 2: straight male gaze on me for the first time, and
Speaker 2: not the gaze, but the gaze, and I thought it
Speaker 2: was going to feel so much better than it did.
Speaker 2: It was. It was such a an empty confidence that
Speaker 2: came from it. And you know, it can feel good sometimes,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't make me feel as good as like
Speaker 2: when a girl's hyping me up and know in the
Speaker 2: bathroom it or you know, a phone call with Lily,
Speaker 2: Like it's interesting to now I've I've kind of gotten
Speaker 2: to look at life on both sides, like Joni Mitchell. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I love that I can see like the perks
Speaker 2: of living life as a gay man versus as a woman.
Speaker 2: What the how the queer community treats you depending on
Speaker 2: what gender you are, you know, like how women treat you.
Speaker 2: Oh and that changed a lot and it's still, you know,
Speaker 2: evolving in something that I feel, I hope does not
Speaker 2: digress because I feel like I have really taken the
Speaker 2: not a back seat at all, like almost like the
Speaker 2: passenger seat to the driver in learning from other gals. Yeah,
Speaker 2: what do you feel like you're learning? I think I'm
Speaker 2: learning that not all like I think I was. It
Speaker 2: felt for a long time like it was CIS women
Speaker 2: versus trans women, And I'm realizing there's a lot of
Speaker 2: the girls are fighting in both categories, but that there
Speaker 2: are a lot of CIS women who do not do
Speaker 2: not see eye to eye on things as well. In
Speaker 2: that to me gave me permission to not look at
Speaker 2: us as these two different categories of people, but actually
Speaker 2: see the nuance of what exists within womanhood and feminism
Speaker 2: and knowing that, like even I'm watching the White Lotus
Speaker 2: right now, and it's so interesting, like when you've got
Speaker 2: like a we're looking at these are you have you
Speaker 2: watched it yet? Like a friend group of women who
Speaker 2: maybe have different political beliefs, and how that shifts, you know,
Speaker 2: the conversations and the judgments, and I think that I
Speaker 2: now have less of a desire to be accepted by
Speaker 2: every single woman, and it's more of a desire to
Speaker 2: be respect did by those that I deeply respect. Yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: and a lot of And I will say, like the
Speaker 2: gals that I've loved and my role models growing up,
Speaker 2: like now, some of which are like friends, and and
Speaker 2: that is what a gift like that is has helped
Speaker 2: show me that I I'm the kind of gal that
Speaker 2: I I loved growing up and that I would continue
Speaker 2: wanting to be.
Speaker 1: I love that for you, Love, You're the gal you
Speaker 1: loved growing up.
Speaker 2: I'm so the city I've been watching so much of
Speaker 2: and like I you know, there's this like fear I
Speaker 2: think as a trans person that you are you know,
Speaker 2: made out to be a caricature, or that you're taking
Speaker 2: on aspects of of you know, other women or fictional women.
Speaker 2: And so I did feel a little guilty. I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I love Audrey Heppern and I love her style, but
Speaker 2: I don't want it to seem like I'm like cosplaying
Speaker 2: as her. I love Charlotte from Sex and the City,
Speaker 2: and you know, I feel so connected to her as
Speaker 2: a character, but I don't want it to seem like
Speaker 2: that's what I'm like trying to be. And then I realize, like,
Speaker 2: oh no, that's just You're seeing things, whether it's in
Speaker 2: a character or in a human or in a celebrity,
Speaker 2: that you see within yourself and that have already existed.
Speaker 2: And it's not that they're things that I'm putting on,
Speaker 2: but it's things that I see in others that I
Speaker 2: love and that I want to make even a little
Speaker 2: brighter within me.
Speaker 1: One of the things you identify with, Yes, that you
Speaker 1: feel represented by, that you feel that make you feel seen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, are what girl on Sex and City? Are you?
Speaker 1: I don't know? Probably, I mean, let's be honest, I'm
Speaker 1: I think people probably would have thought Carrie. But I
Speaker 1: think I'm a little more Miranda. My dad still can't
Speaker 1: believe I'm not a lawyer. He's like, you love to argue,
Speaker 1: you love to fight for justice.
Speaker 2: I see some Miranda there. I also think, like you
Speaker 2: old an earnestness and an innocence still that is kind
Speaker 2: of it gives.
Speaker 1: You Charlotte a ya a sweet angel.
Speaker 2: Yes, because that is such a rarity and I like
Speaker 2: that is honestly, when I think of our group of
Speaker 2: friends and those that we hang out with, like, there
Speaker 2: is that innocence that I love. We talked about it
Speaker 2: last last year on the pod of like you know,
Speaker 2: finding people that have Oh, and I loved. Jane Fonda
Speaker 2: recently dd a podcast interview where she talked about optimism
Speaker 2: versus hope. Yes, and so with Kerrie Washington.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was so good I.
Speaker 2: Now because I feel like for so long I've been
Speaker 2: like I am an you know, eternal optimist, and now
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, no, we're hopeful.
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful.
Speaker 2: I'm still so hopeful.
Speaker 1: Is that going into this crazy year where literally our
Speaker 1: rights are being stripped away and democracy might be lost?
Speaker 1: But your book is coming out? Yes, it's the horrors
Speaker 1: and the joy yep. Is it hope that feels like
Speaker 1: you're work in progress right now? Or is it something
Speaker 1: complete different?
Speaker 2: Well, it's actually I think it's a balance of realism
Speaker 2: versus hope. And for I think for a long time
Speaker 2: I lived I'm a zero to one hundred person, one
Speaker 2: hundred percent just hopeful in a way that I got
Speaker 2: burned so many times because I wasn't taking into consideration
Speaker 2: what could happen, or the realities of what it meant
Speaker 2: to be trans in America, or the realities of living
Speaker 2: in the public eye. I always assumed the best of everyone, yeah,
Speaker 2: even the media, and it has it's bitten me enough
Speaker 2: for me to know the possibilities of what that looks like.
Speaker 2: And so I'm a little more cautious. But the hope
Speaker 2: is that I can exist in a place where it's
Speaker 2: the best case scenario and that the good things are possible,
Speaker 2: and that my you know, vision board can come true.
Speaker 2: And then it's the lack of when those things don't
Speaker 2: happen or can't happen because of the year that we're
Speaker 2: living in or the government that we have, or whatever
Speaker 2: that might be, that I have a plan B, C
Speaker 2: and D that can still you know, get me through
Speaker 2: and that I can still live a full life hopefully.
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to go to Plan B, C
Speaker 2: or D before I try Plan A and And I
Speaker 2: think that has been really crucial, Like even this year,
Speaker 2: I don't have a vision. I'm always a vision board girl.
Speaker 2: I've like I've always been able to manifest like magical things,
Speaker 2: but it feels so out of the ordinary right now
Speaker 2: that I have forced myself to like want certain things,
Speaker 2: but I am approaching every single like opportunity. I'm like,
Speaker 2: does this help me become a Broadway diva? I love that.
Speaker 2: That's my vision board for this year is that question.
Speaker 2: And there's like hope within that, and I think so
Speaker 2: I will say, oh yes, thank you, Jane Fonda. Hope
Speaker 2: is my work in progress right now.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's yours right now?
Speaker 1: You give me a lot of hope. I think slowing
Speaker 1: down it's really hard for me.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but I am.
Speaker 1: I am just so ready for slow tender.
Speaker 2: We don't want to be everywhere and nowhere. We want
Speaker 2: to be some places and giving one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Oh I love you, oh so proud of you.